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aussie
20 Nov 04,, 22:05
Just a curious question, individually with no alliances who are the top 5 powers in Asia??

ajaybhutani
20 Nov 04,, 22:43
i would say russia china india japan(all in no particular order as none is capable of completely subduing another).
russia is stil a major military power.
India & china are emerging powers with large economies (in PPP) and high gowth rates and a rapidly modernizing militaries.
Japan surely due to its advanced military and big economy.


After this group i'll say israel(ig u guys consider it in asia) and then pakistan,iran etc. etc.

Ironduke
20 Nov 04,, 23:49
Probably Russia, China, Japan, India, Pakistan, in that order. I'd say the US has the most powerful military in Asia, but we don't quite have the presence there than we do in the Middle East or Europe. I'd say our military power is more than that of India, Pakistan, and Japan, however.

Praxus
21 Nov 04,, 02:12
We have like 70,000 Troops in the Pacific if I'm not mistaken.

Jay
21 Nov 04,, 02:25
India and China have around a Million men each.

Jay
21 Nov 04,, 02:27
I'd say our military power is more than that of India, Pakistan, and Japan, however.

At present most of the forces are concentrated in the Middle East. Even then, India, China, North Korea and Pakistan have bigger Armies in the region. Only USN's 7th Fleet changes the equation in favor of the US.

ajaybhutani
21 Nov 04,, 04:10
we hve done a lot of china india china indian and china japan war comparisons and frankly none gave eitehr parties a clear edge. I wonder how can we rank them if one cannot outclass another unless of course if we start fromm the scratch comparing the militaries altogether.

About pakistn the AF is in a very bad shape .They done even have a BVR, No missile difences as all. Wont the iranis come comparble to pakistanis (except of course the nukes pakistan has, but now there might benukes in irna .. ).

I dont think it wil be a good idea to rate just militaries as a power need to have it all military economy diplomacy etc.

Rahul
21 Nov 04,, 04:25
What about the countries of S. East Asia? And is Australia a part of "Asia"?

EDIT: Economically, ASEAN is very powerful, giving the nations of S. East Asia "power" beyond what their small, individual lands and resources give them.

ajaybhutani
21 Nov 04,, 04:42
i think Australis nd NZ are considered outside.
And about asian its just a economic block. No military cooperation there.

tarek
27 Nov 04,, 07:06
tHERE are 5 "super powers in Asia?? The rest of the world know this ??

Ray
27 Nov 04,, 07:10
Pakistan.

tarek
27 Nov 04,, 07:15
tsk, tsk - 5 "super powers" - I guess they must all be Pakistan - hai hai hai lootliya na

Srirangan
27 Nov 04,, 15:06
tHERE are 5 "super powers in Asia?? The rest of the world know this ??
The word ws obviously used in a regional proportion. Here's how I'ld rate'em:
- Russia
- Japan, China & India
- Israel, S. Korea, Pakistan and Taiwan

Oh **** I listed 9 countries, oh well 8 countries and Taiwan, oh well 7 countries and Taiwan and Israel (just a lil appeasement for our muslim friends). No wait, Israel is a country.

PaulG
27 Nov 04,, 16:26
i think Australis nd NZ are considered outside.
And about asian its just a economic block. No military cooperation there.

I think for this discussion Australia and New Zealand should and are considered to be Asian members. You mentioned 'asian' but i'm guessing you meant ASEAN, which is more than just an economic block.

ASEAN also includes defence initiatives and targets as well as social and economic ones. Although you could argue that some of those above mentioned have varied importance. Security however, is a significant aspect of ASEAN, not just militarily but also politically and economically. This is because ASEAN is more of a reaction, or response to anglo (UK, Aus, NZ and US) and to a lesser extent European influence in the region. This is portrayed in the fully Asian (SE Asia and periphery) membership of ASEAN.

An important extension of ASEAN is the ASEAN Regional Forum (ARF) which includes around 25 member states, roughly the same as APEC member states. The ARF is in no way an alliance, but more of an active forum/thinktank that deals in many issues that are considered to be modern securit issues. From traditional security to more abstract ones such as people, drugs and arms right down to disease control and customs issues (border control).

The ARF is designed to deal with the complications in the various issues of internatinal relations between the many and varied nations/cultures that occupy this part of the world. One of its great strengths that i can see is that it is an Asian or ASEAN inspired project, created to deal with our varied and contentious issues, and not a anglo/European inspired one.

toetoe
11 Dec 04,, 17:32
Should Vietnam among five? in the history, given having had many shortages but it has defeated American, France or China?

Veni Vidi Vici
11 Dec 04,, 17:44
Should Vietnam among five? in the history, given having had many shortages but it has defeated American, France or China?

Vietnam was another example of how the US was not effective in combat because its hands were tied behind its back. No Vietnam is not anywhere near the top 5.

PS. Defeating France is not great feat. :biggrin:

Igelstellung
12 Dec 04,, 21:50
Russia
Japan
China
India
------Last country is hard to say, given that there are so many countries at that level who have similar capabilities.

Sohail
14 Dec 04,, 14:39
There s only one superpower in the world : USA

USSR was but Russia isnt.

Asia has a futur superpower : China

Others are locals power.

Veni Vidi Vici
14 Dec 04,, 14:58
There s only one superpower in the world : USA

USSR was but Russia isnt.

Asia has a futur superpower : China

Others are locals power.

True.

Tronic
27 Dec 04,, 09:29
wtf??? 5 superpowers????? in asia?????
first of all theres only one superpower : America!!!
secondly the three Asian giants are: China, India and Russia

Russia is more like a crumbling country as China and India are flying high.

Russia was a superpower now crumbling and India and China rising, right about now all three are at the same level but most likely India and China will be on top with Russia struggling behind. As China has the largest growing economy (about 10% per year) and India has the second largest growing economy (about 8% per year), so don't really see Russia in the picture. And please don't even talk about Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Pakistan, etc who have to rely on aid from the U.S.

antelope
27 Dec 04,, 23:33
The five most powerful countries on the Asian landmass would be in my opinion (in order):

China: Nukes/population/economy/conventional force
India: Nukes/population
Russia: Nukes/population
Israel: Nukes/conventional force
Japan: Population/economy/conventional force/(nukes fast if they want them--may have a few in secret)

Iran/North Korea: Largest troublemakers and potential sources of instability

Tronic
28 Dec 04,, 08:11
"The five most powerful countries on the Asian landmass would be in my opinion (in order):

China: Nukes/population/economy/conventional force
India: Nukes/population
Russia: Nukes/population
Israel: Nukes/conventional force
Japan: Population/economy/conventional force/(nukes fast if they want them--may have a few in secret)"

Firstly you should do some research on Indian economy, It's the second fastest growing economy after China. India has already made more progress in IT technology than China. Secondly, China's conventional power isn't really THAT great. It's about the same level as Russia and India. And 1 more thing for Russia i noticed you put "population", another correction, Russia's population is only about 145 million people. That isn't really a lot of population that would give them an advantage. America's population is almost twice as that of Russia (around 290 million people).

Srirangan
28 Dec 04,, 09:12
Both Indian and Chinese military are considerably inferior to the Russian military.

Sohail
28 Dec 04,, 12:47
wtf??? 5 superpowers????? in asia?????
first of all theres only one superpower : America!!!
secondly the three Asian giants are: China, India and Russia

Russia is more like a crumbling country as China and India are flying high.

Russia was a superpower now crumbling and India and China rising, right about now all three are at the same level but most likely India and China will be on top with Russia struggling behind. As China has the largest growing economy (about 10% per year) and India has the second largest growing economy (about 8% per year), so don't really see Russia in the picture. And please don't even talk about Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Pakistan, etc who have to rely on aid from the U.S.



just an advise, dont let japan behind india, japan have an huge economy, india begin to leave from crap. :biggrin:

Veni Vidi Vici
28 Dec 04,, 18:41
just an advise, dont let japan behind india, japan have an huge economy, india begin to leave from crap. :biggrin:

If memory serves I beleive Japan has the second largest economy in the world. Which is about one half of the American economy and twice as large as the third largest (france and UK tied).

Tronic
29 Dec 04,, 00:27
Obviously economy wise Japan has a HUGE economy but still just having a good economy doesn't mean you become one of the asian giants. Japan might have a HUGE economy but their military, HAHA. it's a joke. Have you seen their Mitsubishi F-2??? It's like a F-16 re-labelled. Japan vs. China, without any other country participating, lol. China will rape Japan badly with their huge numbers. Japan is nowhere in competition when it comes to military. Japan is like the Canada of Asia. I mean take Canada vs. Iran. Canada has a stronger economy but it comes nowhere close to beating Iran in a war.

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 00:30
You might want to rephrase everything you've said about Canada. Considering that I retired from the Canadian Forces as a Lieutenant-Colonel. Obviously, you have alot to learn about the Canadian Forces.

And about Japan too.

Tronic
29 Dec 04,, 01:11
You might want to rephrase everything you've said about Canada. Considering that I retired from the Canadian Forces as a Lieutenant-Colonel. Obviously, you have alot to learn about the Canadian Forces.

And about Japan too.


Just cuz you served in the armed force doesn't make it any better, lol. Seriously, i mean you can't deny the Canadian Military is a joke. I mean do you have an explanation for your Ages old SeaKing helicopters??? I mean i respect your peace keeping at stuff but other than that, Canadian Military will fall if engaged in a direct conflict pretty quick. Your whole fighter fleet is based on old F-18's, lol Avro Aero was scrapped by your stupid PM. You guyz have submarines that break down without even engaged in a war, lol. Its pretty funny.

aussie
29 Dec 04,, 01:54
Is Australia all round stronger than Canada???

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 01:56
Looks like I have to again lecture some youngsters.

The Canadian Forces is one of the best militaries on earth. We are NOT a peacekeeping force. We are a WAR FIGHTING force. We are the second most deployed army in NATO and have seen alot of combat from Cyperus to Yugoslavia to Afghanistan. My battle group, the 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry Battle Group met and destroyed the Croat 9th Lukid "Wolves" Brigade. In simple terms, we met and destroyed a hostile force 3 times our size. And that was just over 10 years ago. In 3 Battle Group rotations into Afghanistan, the Canadians have met and killed Taliban and Al Qeida combattants at the platoon and company level. The Canadians even held the command of the ISAF for over 2 years and currently is the largest, non-US force ever to deploy to that country.

Air Command provided 4% of the force to the Kosovo War and flew 10% of the missions. Maritime Command provided a Naval Task Group flank protection to American Carrier Battle Groups. Officially and unofficially, we have always been within the top 4 force provider to any Coalition operation we've participated in.

Before we committed to Afghanistan, we were in talks with the Americans to provide a reduced 2nd Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group (centred on the Royal Canadian Dragoons and the 3rd Battlion, Royal Canadian Regiment Battle Groups) for the war in Iraq. The British were offerring a 3rd Battle Group to flush 2CMBG out.

So, son, you have alot to learn about one of the best and one of the proudest armies on earth.

aussie
29 Dec 04,, 02:01
Sounds very convincing i don't know what Tronic is talking about.
Also officer of enginneers why are you alloweing talk about canada in the Asian issues part of the forum???

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 02:19
Is Australia all round stronger than Canada???

Roughly the same. We have a somewhat more modern and larger army. Oz, somewhat more modern and a little bit larger air force. Navy is about the same.


Sounds very convincing i don't know what Tronic is talking about.
Also officer of enginneers why are you alloweing talk about canada in the Asian issues part of the forum???

He made a comment about Canada against Iran.

Incidently, the Japanese have a more modern air force and navy than the Chinese.

Tronic
29 Dec 04,, 05:55
Listen man... Do you want me to list the weapons that Canada uses and when they were acquired??? In all those scenarios you mentioned Canada took part in, well there were ALWAYS other allies there which had a far more troops on the ground then Canada. Even in Yugoslavia, most of the action was seen by the Brits and Americans. And the air support you got was also mostly American. Another point I want to make is that back then the Canadian Military was able to operate their F18's more freely then now as the F18's were newer then. Since then, no upgrades or no new fighter aircraft have been bought. The Canadian Military is just not an independent fighting force. In Afghanistan, i'm pretty sure you guys couldn't deploy your F18's because of lack of maintanence.

Simple Questions that when you find the answers (try searching google) you will realize what I mean Canadian Forces are not that capable.

1.) How old are your Seaking helicopters? After how long can they fly again after each sortie?

2.) How old are the Canadian Subs that were purchased from England, pre-used? And how much did Canada buy them for?

3.) What is the replacement being sought for most of the Tanks in the Canadian Forces?

4.) How many combat aircraft were used in Afghanistan?

If you find the answers to these questions, you'll know exactly what i'm talking about.

Note, i'm talking about the past, I'm talking about the current status of the Canadian Forces.

I agree with you that Canada has a VERY Proud army but I don't know about "Best" army.

Just think about the Scenario, Canada vs. Iran. 1 on 1. You obviously can clearly see that Iran wins hands down.

********************************
"Incidently, the Japanese have a more modern air force and navy than the Chinese."

And the Japanese also have a MUCH more modern Navy and Airforce then Canada.

Tronic
29 Dec 04,, 05:59
Before we committed to Afghanistan, we were in talks with the Americans to provide a reduced 2nd Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group (centred on the Royal Canadian Dragoons and the 3rd Battlion, Royal Canadian Regiment Battle Groups) for the war in Iraq. The British were offerring a 3rd Battle Group to flush 2CMBG out.

I don't know what the hell your talking about. Canada NEVER offered help in Iraq, infact they were TOTALLY against the Iraq war. Jean Chretian opposed the war America was fighting in Iraq. Even the new government with Paul Martin doesn't approve.

*******************************
P.S. HAHA, have you seen the movie "Canadian Bacon"??? America gets bored cuz cold war has ended so they invade Canada just for fun. Lol, they send one SEAL team (about 7 members) to take over Canada. The Americans only suffer 1 casualty when one of the SEAL members falls and breaks his toe, lol.

The only defense the Canadians have is the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, lol. Just a movie though...

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 06:20
Listen man... Do you want me to list the weapons that Canada uses and when they were acquired??? In all those scenarios you mentioned Canada took part in, well there were ALWAYS other allies there which had a far more troops on the ground then Canada.

We are ALWAYS within the top FOUR, given that there are at least 10 other armies in NATO who are far larger than ours. That means that we have consistently punched FAR beyond our weight. We've DONE far more than our share. And guess what, we're asked to do jobs ... and we're not allowed to say no.


Even in Yugoslavia, most of the action was seen by the Brits and Americans.

Wrong, sonny. The two most active force in Yugoslavia were the Canadians and the British ... In that order! The Americans were not even in UNPROFOR. The top 3 UNPROFOR force provider were the British, Canadian, and France.


And the air support you got was also mostly American.

UNPROFOR had no air arm.


Another point I want to make is that back then the Canadian Military was able to operate their F18's more freely then now as the F18's were newer then.

What point are you trying to make? Before the end of the Cold War, Canadian CF-104s were tasked to drop nukes on Russian columns. And this is WAY before the CF-18s.


Since then, no upgrades or no new fighter aircraft have been bought.

Wrong on that count. 36 fighters have gone through the USN F-18 upgrade program. The entire program is slated to end 2007.


The Canadian Military is just not an independent fighting force.

We're not? I didn't see anyone else beside me when I was returning fire.


In Afghanistan, i'm pretty sure you guys couldn't deploy your F18's because of lack of maintanence.

We did not deploy the CF-18s because the Americans asked for our ground troops, more specifically, we received a direct request from the American 187th Regiment (Rakashans), 101st Airborne Division (Air Assualt) for the 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry Battle Group. Aside from that, our CF-18s are right now patrolling NORTH AMERICAN airspace, the first time in such frequency since the end of the Cold War. Maybe you didn't know this. From 11 Sept on, Canadian warplanes were patrolling American airspace as well as Canadian.


Simple Questions that when you find the answers (try searching google) you will realize what I mean Canadian Forces are not that capable.

At which time, I will directly challenge your lack of knowledge on ALL these matters.


1.) How old are your Seaking helicopters? After how long can they fly again after each sortie?

After the last refit (the only measure that counts), 15 years old. And on average, 27 hours maintenance for every 1 hour flight which does not paint an accurage picture whatsoever. The Sea Kings do not fly 1 hour and then stop for 27. They fly an entire mission straight and then is grounded for a week for repairs. And by mission, I mean 78 hours.


2.) How old are the Canadian Subs that were purchased from England, pre-used? And how much did Canada buy them for?

Again, refit is the only measure that counts. Therefore, brand new. The CF paid $820mil Cdn to the Royal Navy for them.


3.) What is the replacement being sought for most of the Tanks in the Canadian Forces?

There are no replacement for the Leo C2s. That role is being eliminated from our TOE. For the purposes envisioned, of which I am sure you know ZERO about, we've bought 66 LAV-105s (tank destroyers) for a new paradyme which you know zero about. Incidently, we're not getting rid of the Leo C2s. At least one squadron is to retain the Leo C2s until 2015.


4.) How many combat aircraft were used in Afghanistan?

You mean fighters? Zero. You mean Hercs? 3.


If you find the answers to these questions, you'll know exactly what i'm talking about.

I do. You don't.


Note, i'm talking about the past, I'm talking about the current status of the Canadian Forces.

So am I. You know nothing about our current status.


I agree with you that Canada has a VERY Proud army but I don't know about "Best" army.

You obviously know very little about miltiary R&D. The CF is a bleeding edge force, in every sense of the word, we have more flying hours in our fighters than any other NATO force, our tanks needed to be upgraded from Leo C1 to Leo C2 because our tankers overdrove the things and stretched them beyond belief. Fatique has set in that you can poke holes in the armour with a pencil.

Our COYOTE and LAV-III are state-of-the-art and in demand by NATO. We're asked to do more recee missions than any other force in NATO, including the Americans.

We're designing ourselves to be the premiere recee-by-force military on earth. On that, we have no equal, not even the Americans.


Just think about the Scenario, Canada vs. Iran. 1 on 1. You obviously can clearly see that Iran wins hands down.

I can see two things.

1) I have absolute confidence that my Battle Group will kill any Iranian Brigade anytime anywhere.

2) We will be fighting in Iran and not Canada.


Now, my challenge.

1) Mission wise, how effective are the Sea Kings?
2) What's on par with the VICTORIA/UPHOLDER class?
3) What role do we have envisioned for the LAV-105s?
4) Why didn't the Russians/Soviets EVER penetrated our airspace?



********************************
"Incidently, the Japanese have a more modern air force and navy than the Chinese."

And the Japanese also have a MUCH more modern Navy and Airforce then Canada.

No, they don't.

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 06:46
I don't know what the hell your talking about. Canada NEVER offered help in Iraq, infact they were TOTALLY against the Iraq war. Jean Chretian opposed the war America was fighting in Iraq. Even the new government with Paul Martin doesn't approve.

Wrong on those facts. Then Minister of National Defence John MacCullun was sent to CENTCOM on behalf of Jean Chretien asking why the Canadians were left out of certain planning aspects of the Iraq War. The MND promised full co-operation and the Canadians were let back in.

In actual fact, when the announcement of the ISAF deployment came, the Chief of Land Staff, Lieutenant-General Mike Jefferies got 15 minutes warning and Major-General Cameron Ross, who is responsible for advising the government on the feasibility of any mission, was left out in the cold. MGen Ross resigned in protest.

Even then, we were involved in the Iraq War, being the 4th largest force contributor to that war. From my old boss


NATIONALPOST.COM Saturday » April 5 » 2003

Admit it, we're engaged in combat

Lewis MacKenzie
National Post


Whether you support the U.S.-led invasion/liberation of Iraq or not, one thing is for sure -- and that is that half of the Canadian population disagrees with you. That statistic is far from unusual in the Western world, including those countries that are actively participating in the war. What is unique, however, is the existence of a country that is actively supporting the war but goes out of its way to make sure it receives absolutely no credit for the efforts of its sons and daughters in uniform. Only in Canada, you say.

Canadian exchange officers are just that -- they have been "exchanged" for someone of equivalent rank and capabilities from a different country's military. In another scenario, Canadian military personnel are integrated within multinational teams as part of a multinational organization like NATO. Canada has representatives in both categories in the Iraq theatre of operations -- in spite of bafflegab to the contrary.

A significant Canadian contingent participating in the war against Iraq is found within the Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS). The crews aboard the AWACS aircraft represent many NATO nations and Canadians fill a number of key positions with the aircraft that are directly involved in the war with Iraq. Think of the AWACS aircraft as an airborne traffic control tower with a difference. Yes, the crew has to keep all those fighters, bombers and tanker aircraft from running into each other in crowded airspace but, unlike their civilian counterparts, they have another important responsibility. Fighters and bombers are vectored to their targets by the AWACS crews. They are a key part of any successful air campaign and contribute in no small way to reducing the risk of air to ground friendly fire. They are directly involved in the war.

In the early '90s, Canada withdrew its combat arms exchange officers -- infantry, armoured and artillery -- from Britain, the United States and France. Let's face it, with the tempo experienced by our combat arms units during that period we needed all our officers with their home units. As a result, the majority of Canada's exchange officers serving in the current war are employed in logistics, headquarters or combat engineer positions.

In an attempt to avoid suggesting that Canadians are directly contributing to the war effort, numerous statements have been uttered by government leaders that are quite frankly, insulting to our service members on duty in a war zone. Suggestions that our people, "are not involved in combat roles" suggests they are not involved in combat. Wrong! The first U.S. deaths, executions and POWs involved logistics personnel. Forward headquarters have also been attacked. To suggest that the Profession of Arms has a class system where some soldiers in a combat zone are in "direct combat" (a civilian term) and others are not is highly inaccurate and warrants an apology -- particularly from those government members who vocally perpetuate this personal insult during Parliament's daily Question Period.

Regarding Nova Scotia's Lieutenant Angie Little's attachment to the British "Desert Rats" formation currently battling around Basra, both my province of birth, and my father's career as a combat engineer, demands me to point out that she, as a Canadian combat engineer, is directly involved in the war. Suggestions that she would only fire in self-defence are silly to the extreme and if such instructions have actually been issued the perpetrator and his bosses should be sent to the front lines themselves -- with the same rules of engagement!

We now turn to our Navy doing sterling work escorting many of the ships bringing war materials and aid supplies to the war zone. Nevertheless, we are reminded ad nauseam that they are in theatre strictly to contribute to the war against terrorism. Anyone who thinks our Navy would abort an intercept of a threat to any ship they are escorting because they discover that it's an Iraqi threat doesn't know our Navy.

The decision to leave our exchange personnel in location was a correct one and for that the government deserves credit. It is one thing to refuse to help your traditional allies when they undertake a difficult task, it's yet another to interfere with them by taking away some members of their combat team. To suggest that the general locations of our personnel cannot be revealed for security reasons stands in stark contrast to U.S. soldiers regularly giving their name, unit and a "Hi mom!" on international television.

I understand, but can't accept, the Alice in Wonderland logic that causes our political leaders to argue that while we have personnel in the combat zone they are not in combat. This is highly disrespectful of those who proudly wear the uniform of our nation and agree to risk their lives if that is what their political leadership directs.

So let's get this straight -- America wants to give Canada credit for the scale of our contingent in the war theatre of operations, but we refuse to accept it. Canadians are directly involved in the combat zone, but that's OK because they are not involved in combat roles -- which they are. Curiouser and curiouser.


Maj-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie, now retired, commanded UN troops during the Bosnian civil war of 1992.

© Copyright 2003 National Post


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P.S. HAHA, have you seen the movie "Canadian Bacon"??? America gets bored cuz cold war has ended so they invade Canada just for fun. Lol, they send one SEAL team (about 7 members) to take over Canada. The Americans only suffer 1 casualty when one of the SEAL members falls and breaks his toe, lol.

The only defense the Canadians have is the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, lol. Just a movie though...

The movie got it wrong. The Canadiens got no defence ... and that's why they haven't won a Stanley Cup in over 10 years.

Tronic
29 Dec 04,, 07:17
A LITTLE INSIGHT INTO CANADA'S BRAND "NEW" SUBMARINES BOUGHT AT A QUARTER OF THE ORIGINAL PRICE

Newly bought sub leaks on trial run

Globe and Mail Update

Wednesday, July 03, 2002

Canadian sailors got a lesson in the buyer-beware principle when one of their newly purchased British submarines sprang a leak during a training run.

HMS Ursula limped back to port on the west coast of Scotland yesterday, with a crew of about 50 Canadians on board, after water flowed into the submarine through a small tube-like device used to send signal markers to the surface when the vessel is submerged.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v4/sub/MarketingPage?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FRTGAM. 20020703.USUBBM_COPY%2FBNStory&ord=1104303761575&brand=theglobeandmail&force_login=true

Used submarines unfit for service Royal Navy hand-me-downs can't leave port pending analysis

With a report from Canadian Press

Wednesday, May 1, 2002

ada's two operating submarines aren't fit to go to sea.

Investigators are scanning a small dent in the hull of the submarine HMCS Victoria and looking for cracks in the exhaust valves of the vessel and those of its sister submarine HMCS Windsor.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v4/sub/MarketingPage?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FRTGAM. 20020501.USUBSN_COPY%2FBNStory&ord=1104303873061&brand=theglobeandmail&force_login=true

ALL THE ABOVE ARTICLES WERE TAKEN STRAIGHT FROM A CANADIAN NEWS SOURCE, Globe and Mail (A Source That Canadians Trust, lol.

"Prime Minister John Diefenbaker’s (1957-1963) tenure conjures up security/military issues related to NORAD, nuclear weapons delivery, and the Avro Arrow fighter jet. He was suspicious of the USA, and of President Kennedy in particular. During the Cuban missile crisis, he delayed putting the military on alert, infuriating the Americans in the process. Diefenbaker failed to understand Canada’s national interests; he made the Canadian Forces political and used defence policy to "smack" the US. Diefenbaker killed the military.

Lester Pearson’s only fault was that, as foreign minister to 1957, he did his job too well. His understanding of international affairs and responsible leadership led to the successful interposition of Canadian troops and the defusing of the Suez Crisis in 1956. He won the Nobel Peace Prize, making him the model statesman and envy of politicians. He established the Pearsonian peacekeeping myth that continues, today to hurt the military (peaceful intervention leads to the faulty deduction that there is no need to acquire arms for the military). Succeeding Liberal leaders have tried to emulate Pearson by sending Canadian Forces on a myriad of "peacekeeping" missions. The peacekeeping myth, along with the reluctance to arm Canada’s military, has dealt the military a mortal blow. Mike Pearson killed the military.

Defence Minister Paul Hellyer also ranks as one of the killers of the Canadian military. The idea of unification was not a bad one. The military should work together. However, Hellyer’s tactics were terrible: changing uniform and rank structures was not necessary to effect unification. Hellyer went too far and killed the Canadian military.

Pierre Trudeau viewed soldiers as unintelligent thugs. Likewise, his perception of the major powers was distorted: he saw the USSR and US as moral equivalents. His belief that Canada could find a new way in foreign and defence policy led to European-based Canadian military reductions in NATO. Trudeau killed the Canadian Military.

Brian Mulroney came to power with the promise to restore the Canadian Forces after the Liberal government’s long neglect. Every promise was broken; expectations raised by the 1987 White Paper were dashed. Mulroney killed the Canadian Forces.

Jean Chrétien finished off the Canadian Forces. He did not understand Canada’s national interests nor did his government understand the US response to 9/11. With no coordinated purpose or knowledge of interests, he sent Canadian troops all over the globe during his tenure, weakened the military, and failed to tell the Canadian people that he had depleted their force of last resort. Jean Chrétien killed the military.

But it is the Canadian people who really killed their military. We elected our national leaders; we the people are responsible. We believe that defence spending is unnecessary. Canadians killed their military.

In concluding, Dr. Granatstein offered counsel. We need to stop anti-Americanism and be realistic. We cannot opt out of North American defence; otherwise we lose our sovereignty. We need to defend ourselves from too much help from the Americans. The Americans in defence of their their homeland will need to defend the approaches to their nation, even if those approaches go through Canada.

A military force cannot be conjured up overnight. It took decades to render the military bankrupt; it will take a long time to restore it. Who can rebuild the Canadian Forces? We can!"
http://www.cda-cdai.ca/CDA_GMs/AGM67/granatstein.htm

lol, thats taken right off the Canadian Conference of Defense Assosiactions (CDA)

So there, your own people admit The Canadian Military is "dead" so please this argument is worthless.

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 07:18
As for the Brigade

(NATIONAL POST) - Saturday » January 11 » 2003

'Forces' last chance to show country what they can do'
Planners offer 3,000 troops to fight alongside U.K., U.S.

Chris Wattie
National Post


Friday, January 10, 2003

Canadian Forces planners are "putting everything on the table" for a contribution to any war in Iraq, military sources say, including a brigade group of up to 3,000 mechanized infantry, armour and artillery troops that would fight alongside U.S. and British soldiers.

One source, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the navy, air force and army are pushing to make the maximum effort possible despite well-publicized shortages of equipment, funding and personnel.

"Everything they could possibly send to Iraq, they will ... if the government gives the go-ahead," said the source.

But some observers say the military's contingency plans to send everything from CF-18 fighters to a large formation of ground troops to Iraq are being stymied by the Prime Minister's Office and the Department of Foreign Affairs, which object to Canadians becoming involved in combat.

"The government is not terribly happy with the idea of fighting a war," said Colonel Alain Pellerin, a retired army officer and executive director of the Conference of Defence Associations. "That goes against their idea of what our image should be -- that we're peacekeepers; we don't fight wars.

"The PMO and [Privy Council Office] have been particularly hard line about that."

However Col. Pellerin said those objections may not stand up to pressure from Washington.

"The bottom line is the Americans expect something from Canada," he said. "And they would like to have them contribute to land operations."

The Canadian Forces has, for the past few months, been making extensive plans in anticipation of a possible war in Iraq, and one senior defence planner said the army has indicated it could send an entire brigade group to the conflict.

"The feeling among the army is that this is their last chance to show the country what they can do."

A brigade group is about 3,000 soldiers, built around an armoured battalion and one or more mechanized infantry battalions. The source said the infantry would be drawn from the 2nd Battalion, Royal Canadian Regiment, in Gagetown, N.B.

The plan would draw the armour - including squadrons of Coyote armoured reconnaissance vehicles and C-2 Leopard tanks - from the Royal Canadian Dragoons, based in Petawawa, Ont.

The 3rd Battalion of the RCR, the regiment's light infantry battalion, is another possibility for deployment with the brigade group. That battalion is the army's designated "rapid reaction unit."

Another military source said the Canadian Forces' joint operations group, the central co-ordination unit for major operations, has already sent a small reconnaissance group to the Gulf to check out possible sites for a Canadian headquarters in the region.

The source said one plan under consideration would see a Canadian battalion of about 1,000 soldiers joining allied forces arrayed against Iraq as a "first wave," along with a headquarters for the full brigade group. Other battalions and smaller units such as engineers, artillery and support elements could be added as they arrive.

"That's the template they used in Kosovo and as far back as Korea," the source said. "One battalion became the nucleus of the Commonwealth Brigade."

An air force officer, who also asked not to be named, indicated that a squadron of CF-18s has been offered for any fight in Iraq. Although the jets are in the process of a badly needed upgrade to their airborne electronics, the source said the military hopes a small number will be ready in time to allow them to operate with British and U.S. forces.

The air force has also been replenishing its supply of "smart" bombs, almost all of which were used during the bombing campaign over Kosovo.

Heather Brunner, a spokeswoman for the Department of National Defence, said Canadian military planners are already involved in discussions with the Americans.

"There is a small military liaison team engaged in discussions with the U.S. military authorities right now," she said. "[They're] looking at determining the needs and appropriate contributions should the use of force become necessary."

However, Ms. Brunner said all the plans being laid are still hypothetical. "It's not appropriate to speculate at this time what our specific contribution might be."

John McCallum, the Defence Minister, has said that at minimum, two navy frigates, transport planes and two surveillance aircraft now patrolling the Persian Gulf region in the war on terrorism could be transferred to operations against Iraq.

The commandos of JTF-2, who were withdrawn from Afghanistan late last year for a rest, could also be easily and quickly transferred to an allied force in Iraq.

Col. Pellerin said the proposal to send a large body of Canadian ground troops to Iraq is possible, but said time is not on the defence planners' side.

"They would have to commit themselves now or very soon," he said. "They would have to make an announcement like the Brits or the French did this week that they feel it's prudent to begin real preparations."

cwattie@nationalpost.com

© Copyright 2003 National Post

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 07:20
A LITTLE INSIGHT INTO CANADA'S BRAND "NEW" SUBMARINES BOUGHT AT A QUARTER OF THE ORIGINAL PRICE

And what is your point in this? I know the CDA. I'm a member. You have absolutely no understanding of the article. We have dropped a long way. No question. But we are far from dead ... and far from being ineffective.

I'm a bellycrawler, not a submariner ... but I take strong confidence in that the people who worked on these subs are more than willing to go back and do their jobs. It's when they're not willing, then we have problems.

Again, you know crap!

Tronic
29 Dec 04,, 07:22
Please read my above thread^^^

^^^For the above thread^^^ don't forget HMCS Chicoutimi

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 07:23
Please read my above thread^^^
I did and I will state it again. You don't understand the article.

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 07:27
Please read my above thread^^^

^^^For the above thread^^^ don't forget HMCS Chicoutimi

I don't and I never will forget my Brothers-In-Arms. You, however, have absolutely no concept of a shake-down. We lost a man. No question. The Chinese lost a crew. The Russians lost a sub.

I will tell you something ... and your limited mind will not understand. You're not considered a sub power until you lost a sub and crew ... and continue to lose them, in however, small increments.

Tronic
29 Dec 04,, 07:34
I will tell you something ... and your limited mind will not understand. You're not considered a sub power until you lost a sub and crew ... and continue to lose them, in however, small increments.

America doesn't loose subs like that, does that mean they are not a sub power???
And China and Russia have low maintanence on their subs, thats why they have accidents but I guess the Canadians have maintanence problems as well cuz i can recall a helicopter crashing on board the ship before it could take off, lol.

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 07:37
What the hell do you mean the US don't lose subs like that? Do a google before you show your ignorance. And we did not lose a sub. We lost a man.

And you're a freaking idiot. A chopper crashing onto its ship. NAME ME ONE HELO BORNED NAVY that hasn't have this happenned to?

Give up, Kid, you have not answer any of my challenges and I've done more than answer yours. You know crap little and don't pretend otherwise.

Tronic
29 Dec 04,, 07:38
Try to find Canada in the military spending list ranked from highest to lowest (needs a little updating)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm

CORRECTION: In front of some countries like Canada, India, Sweden, Korea, etc it says they spend in "millions". Thats a mistake, its actually in "billions"

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 07:43
GOD!!!! That stupid comparison again.

Military budgets mean squat all.

1st, no one touches the US.

2nd, you have to break it down to capital budgets and operational budgets and there are things that are absolutely not transferable. A LGen's pay in China is about two-thirds of my pay in Canada. Do not mean that I can do the job of a LGen (nor a Chinese LGen can do my job).

The Chinese maintain 73 divisions with their bugets while we maintained 3 brigade groups. Thus, for us, our brigades are much better equipped than entire Chinese divisions.

Get off this, you're an amateur.

Tronic
29 Dec 04,, 07:50
1st, no one touches the US.

Obviously...


A LGen's pay in China is about two-thirds of my pay in Canada. Do not mean that I can do the job of a LGen (nor a Chinese LGen can do my job).

Look at their military size compared to yours...


The Chinese maintain 73 divisions with their bugets while we maintained 3 brigade groups. Thus, for us, our brigades are much better equipped than entire Chinese divisions.

LMAO, you getting desperate man. 73 divisions??????? HAHAHAHA thats a joke. A random number out of thin air. Think about it 73 divisions with 3 of yours. And on top of that they have more money to burn then you. That makes them outnumber you HEAVILY!!!!!!!!

So basically if they use rest of their money to well equip those 73 Divisions. You have 73 Chinese Divisions just as well equipped as 3 Canadian Brigades. Chinese SLAUGHTER YOUR ASS!!!

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 08:00
Look at their military size compared to yours...

They have different requirements than us. They need a large army at home. We need to fight across the world.


LMAO, you getting desperate man. 73 divisions??????? HAHAHAHA thats a joke. A random number out of thin air.

You know something. It's quite nice that you prove that you're an idiot. Out of thin air? Not by a long shot.

People's Liberation Army Order of Battle (http://www.china-defense.com/orbat/pla_orbat/pla_orbat-01.html)


Think about it 73 divisions with 3 of yours.

No, it's 73 of theirs against 1 of ours. 73 divisions against 3 brigade groups. I'll let you to continue to show your stupidity on this.


And on top of that they have more money to burn then you. That makes them outnumber you HEAVILY!!!!!!!!

Yes, they do outnumber us. But we out-deploy them by a very BIG margin.


So basically if they use rest of their money to well equip those 73 Divisions. You have 73 Chinese Divisions just as well equipped as 3 Canadian Brigades. Chinese SLAUGHTER YOUR ASS!!!

No, those divisions are under-equipped when compared to a Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group. And I still have absolute confidence that anyone of my brigade groups can take on a Chinese division.

Oh, please do continue to show your ignorance if you don't know what I'm talking about.

Tronic
29 Dec 04,, 08:08
People's Liberation Army Order of Battle (http://www.china-defense.com/orbat/pla_orbat/pla_orbat-01.html)

And I still have absolute confidence that anyone of my brigade groups can take on a Chinese division.


First of all, where the hell does it say 73 divisions on that site, idiot???

Second, Everyone has confidence but a reality check... HAHA Canada taking on China, thats like someone talking in LALA LAND.

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 08:09
My god, you can't count and you can't read English!

Tronic
29 Dec 04,, 08:15
My god, you can't count and you can't read English!

YOUR SO F*CKING STUPID!!! A TYPICAL CANADIAN MILITARY DUDE. TRYING TO COUNT REGIMENTS AND DIVISIONS TOGETHER, IT'S LIKE IMPOSSIBLE. I STILL DOUBT IT HAS 73 DIVISIONS. AND WHERE DOES IT SAY, THE MAINTANENCE FOR THESE DIVISIONS??? LIKE YOU WERE COMPARIN 73 CHINESE DIVISIONS WITH 3 CANADIAN BRIGADES.

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 08:23
Hehehehehehehehehehahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha - Oh, thank you very much for the bellylaugh. The site was put together by the China-Defense.com staff, the most respected English based PLA watchers on the internet. I did not write the article but the aurthur is an extremely well respected academic who has written articles across the globe, who happens to be a friend of mine.

There is alot of good information on that reference page and you've just shown you're not interested in the facts and is too lazy to go into actual details. Just by reading it, you'll get a glimpse on how the Chinese actually deploy for battle ... but no, you don't want to do that. Oh, btw, there are only 73 divisions, some admittingly only at regiment strength but that too tells you wonders ... but then again, I don't expect you to understand.

Case close. I won't respond from this moment on. I will let you have the last word.

Admins, I'm sorry about I was troll baiting this time ... but he made me do it!!!!!!!!

Tronic
29 Dec 04,, 08:29
Hehehehehehehehehehahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha - Oh, thank you very much for the bellylaugh. The site was put together by the China-Defense.com staff, the most respected English based PLA watchers on the internet. I did not write the article but the aurthur is an extremely well respected academic who has written articles across the globe, who happens to be a friend of mine.

There is alot of good information on that reference page and you've just shown you're not interested in the facts and is too lazy to go into actual details. Just by reading it, you'll get a glimpse on how the Chinese actually deploy for battle ... but no, you don't want to do that. Oh, btw, there are only 73 divisions, some admittingly only at regiment strength but that too tells you wonders ... but then again, I don't expect you to understand.

Case close. I won't respond from this moment on. I will let you have the last word.

Admins, I'm sorry about I was troll baiting this time ... but he made me do it!!!!!!!!


You still didn't answer my question where you got your maintanence information from idiot. Where the hell did you get 73 Chinese Divisions = 3 Canadian Brigades in terms of spending. Let me just remind you that each division has a seperate role, for example a Tank Division might get more maintanence funding then an Infantry division. I don't want to sit here and count all the Chinese Divisions. All I want is to know where you got the spending information from??? Cuz you know you made it up from nowhere. And then you try to cover your lies by making me sit there and count unnessary numbers, lol. Your a joke, shitface.

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 08:33
You still didn't answer my question where you got your maintanence information from idiot. Where the hell did you get 73 Chinese Divisions = 3 Canadian Brigades in terms of spending. Let me just remind you that each division has a seperate role, for example a Tank Division might get more maintanence funding then an Infantry division. I don't want to sit here and count all the Chinese Divisions. All I want is to know where you got the spending information from??? Cuz you know you made it up from nowhere. And then you try to cover your lies by making me sit there and count unnessary numbers, lol. Your a joke, shitface.
My god. You really don't know military terminology ... and you're trying to lecture me?

I will give you a hint.

What's a division's sub-echelons?

Tronic
29 Dec 04,, 08:52
My god. You really don't know military terminology ... and you're trying to lecture me?

I will give you a hint.

What's a division's sub-echelons?

f*ggot just tell me the source where you got the spending per division from???

aussie
29 Dec 04,, 08:52
Im with tronic on this i think officer of engineers is speaking out of his ****!!!

lemontree
29 Dec 04,, 09:11
Tronic,
Cool it. OoE is a retd Colonel from the Canadian Corps of Engineers. He has done extensive studies on the PLA.
If you have any doubts on his claims do some research on your own before challenging his claims.
For Gods sake Canada has different military requirements than China, so why should their armies be similar.
I wish we had a neighbour like the US, then we could spend our money on development than weapons.
BTW, the cost of one nuclear submarine can eradicate malaria from a country like Bangladesh. Where should Canada spend that money?
On a sub or in development?

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 15:00
Captain,

It's quite obvious that these two don't know the difference between brigade from regiment and simple math eludes them. No need to show them their errors. It's quite funny when you read their posts. I'm having a barrel of a time allowing them to show their ignorance.

And the kid lives in Toronto, like typical Canadian kids, he has no idea about the CF and is just wacking off to show his ignorance.

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 17:12
Tronc,

Just re-read your posts for a good laugh. To save yourself some further humilation. Re-read what I wrote. I've said nothing you've thought I said.

What are they doing in Toronto school these days, comprehension and simple counting ain't a requirement anymore?

Just an friendly FYI, start behaving with a little more manners, I don't mind being called an idiot but the admin here has banned more than one person who can't hold their tonques against me ... not that you have much comprehension in these things.

So, when are you going to answer my questions?

Ray
29 Dec 04,, 17:38
Colonel,

Don't rise to the bait.

Let them say what they want. It matters not.

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool; avoid him.
He who knows not and knows that he knows not is a student; teach him.
He who knows and knows not that he knows is asleep; wake him.
He who knows and knows that he knows is a wise man; follow him.

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 17:46
Colonel,

Don't rise to the bait.

Let them say what they want. It matters not.

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool; avoid him.
He who knows not and knows that he knows not is a student; teach him.
He who knows and knows not that he knows is asleep; wake him.
He who knows and knows that he knows is a wise man; follow him.
Sir,

I'm the one baiting him. But yes Sir, I read you Lima Charley. I will cease my actions immediately. My apologies to all.

antelope
29 Dec 04,, 17:57
"The five most powerful countries on the Asian landmass would be in my opinion (in order):

China: Nukes/population/economy/conventional force
India: Nukes/population
Russia: Nukes/population
Israel: Nukes/conventional force
Japan: Population/economy/conventional force/(nukes fast if they want them--may have a few in secret)"

Firstly you should do some research on Indian economy, It's the second fastest growing economy after China. India has already made more progress in IT technology than China. Secondly, China's conventional power isn't really THAT great. It's about the same level as Russia and India. And 1 more thing for Russia i noticed you put "population", another correction, Russia's population is only about 145 million people. That isn't really a lot of population that would give them an advantage. America's population is almost twice as that of Russia (around 290 million people).

You're carping at minor details and reading into a few words.

India may one day be a strong economic power. It's not in the league of Japan and China today however.

145 million puts Russia among the largest populated nations on Earth. It's not in the same league as China, India, or America but the size of the Russian and Japanese populations does put them in a league ahead of nations like Britain and France.

In general what makes a country a great power is a combination of population leveraged by their economy and technology and their willingness to turn these assetts into military might. You may disagree on minor details but my five picks are either the top 5 Asian powers or just below the cut on someone elses list.

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 18:01
In general what makes a country a great power is a combination of population leveraged by their economy and technology and their willingness to turn these assetts into military might.

Could you expand on this point? I'm curious as to how a population would be willing to turn assets into military might? I hate to say this but military might is taxes and we all know just how much we love taxes.

antelope
29 Dec 04,, 18:20
Could you expand on this point? I'm curious as to how a population would be willing to turn assets into military might? I hate to say this but military might is taxes and we all know just how much we love taxes.

Tax is simply taking a percent of the work done by an individual. The total work done by an individual is based on his productivity which is a factor of his skill, the technology employed, and the infrastructure he works in.

If to you total taxes effectively spent on the military equals power then:

Population x Productivity x military tax rate = Power

Population will always be a major factor in military power. Not to mention that generally it is believed that in modern warfare a country can only effectively field a military force that is 10% of its total population meaning in a total warfare situation between countries of roughly equal technology and tactics the war will often be decided by population size.

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 18:25
Perhaps I'm reading you wrong but I'm under the impression you're saying that a population naturally aspire military power?

antelope
29 Dec 04,, 18:50
Perhaps I'm reading you wrong but I'm under the impression you're saying that a population naturally aspire military power?

You are reading me wrong.

I am only saying that having a large population is a considerable factor in a countries potential military power.

Brazil is a perfect example of a nation with a large population and potential military power but chooses not to aspire at this time to be a major military power on the international scene.

I think in general any population aspires security. Whether they aspire military power often is a measure of how secure that population feels about military threats to itself.

Sohail
29 Dec 04,, 22:26
Obviously economy wise Japan has a HUGE economy but still just having a good economy doesn't mean you become one of the asian giants. Japan might have a HUGE economy but their military, HAHA. it's a joke. Have you seen their Mitsubishi F-2??? It's like a F-16 re-labelled. Japan vs. China, without any other country participating, lol. China will rape Japan badly with their huge numbers. Japan is nowhere in competition when it comes to military. Japan is like the Canada of Asia. I mean take Canada vs. Iran. Canada has a stronger economy but it comes nowhere close to beating Iran in a war.


You are a joker, go study on military balance in Asia tronic.

Man Japan's army with only 100,000 soldiers is far better that 2millions crapy chineses. Quality surpass quantity.
Don't forget others aspects of the situation, Japan have restriction on arms development. Japan's F2 are far larger n longer than a f16....study man study.

China is the futur giant but a giant often forget that he is not invincible. If chinese have nukes don t forget that USA provides Nuke's umbrella to Japs. :biggrin:

About Canadian army, it s a pretty good army. If they are peacefull this doesn t mean that they are stupid. :biggrin:

Iran is fail country. Persian lose their identity by a crappy sect, shism, as like Pakistan with another sect, sunnism. :mad:

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 04,, 22:47
Man Japan's army with only 100,000 soldiers is far better that 2millions crapy chineses. Quality surpass quantity.

There is no doubt that the JSDF is a well trained force but they lacked extensive operational experience. They would perform well under American leadership (or any of the ABCA countries) but would be hard press to lead a force outside of the Japanese home islands on its own.

Colonel Denis Blasko and I are of the agreement that the PLA can cut its force in half and would be a much better force for it (if they get rid of the non-performing divisions and bring the rest up to strength). They do have a few good units, the 38th and 39th Group Armies are among the world's best as far as operational readiness is concerned but those facing Korea could use alot more money and attention.

Jay
29 Dec 04,, 23:10
well, one more pimple faced kid fighting with a dinosar... :redface:

Blademaster
30 Dec 04,, 02:36
Hehehehehehehehehehahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha - Oh, thank you very much for the bellylaugh. The site was put together by the China-Defense.com staff, the most respected English based PLA watchers on the internet. I did not write the article but the aurthur is an extremely well respected academic who has written articles across the globe, who happens to be a friend of mine.

There is alot of good information on that reference page and you've just shown you're not interested in the facts and is too lazy to go into actual details. Just by reading it, you'll get a glimpse on how the Chinese actually deploy for battle ... but no, you don't want to do that. Oh, btw, there are only 73 divisions, some admittingly only at regiment strength but that too tells you wonders ... but then again, I don't expect you to understand.

In risk of incurring your wrath against me, truthfully most of the info I requested from you, I was too lazy to go through them all. For instance, the info I requested on AMerican & Russian forces during Cold War, I was like "huh?" :confused: and stopped reading further. I am a simple layperson. I can only understand numbers and comparisions but nothing like TOE because I don't understand the intricacies of TOE such as a regiment with a different number from another regiment with different tasking and how those things play with each other when combined. I never experienced being in the military so for some things that you take granted, it is beyond my comprehension.



Case close. I won't respond from this moment on. I will let you have the last word.

Admins, I'm sorry about I was troll baiting this time ... but he made me do it!!!!!!!!

As far as I am concerned, Tronic was being the troll and troll baiting. He is truly an idiot. Only experience and age will convert him from an idiot to a wiser person.

LCol, remember our first days together, eh? Oh man, looking back, I did not realize that I sounded like an idiot, playing those pissing contests between India and China. But it was certainly fun reading everybody's innovative insults such as Santa, Sharptooth, and others before it truly denigrated into a pig's sty.

Officer of Engineers
30 Dec 04,, 03:01
I never experienced being in the military so for some things that you take granted, it is beyond my comprehension.

All you have to do is ask. There are a few people here willing to give you a hand in understanding. Borrowing a term from our friend M21 here, I can try to dumb it down for you.

I, however, am guilty of expecting people to see what I think it's obvious.


LCol, remember our first days together, eh? Oh man, looking back, I did not realize that I sounded like an idiot, playing those pissing contests between India and China. But it was certainly fun reading everybody's innovative insults such as Santa, Sharptooth, and others before it truly denigrated into a pig's sty.

I was in that malee also, remember? Grew too old and just check CMF for a second. Yep, it's still the same old pig sty.

Blademaster
30 Dec 04,, 03:15
All you have to do is ask. There are a few people here willing to give you a hand in understanding. Borrowing a term from our friend M21 here, I can try to dumb it down for you.

I, however, am guilty of expecting people to see what I think it's obvious.



Ok, well the thing is that I was looking for combat power of Russian forces versus American forces. I recall that you said US XXV Corps was the only thing stopping Warpact forces from steamrolling. I was confused and asked for the info which you provided. But reading the TOE was confusing. To truly understand it would require us meet in person and discuss it over beer.

Julie
30 Dec 04,, 03:21
YOUR SO F*CKING STUPID!!!


Your a joke, shitface

You are in violation of Paragraph 2 of the forum rules. Therefore, I will utilize Paragraph 6 for purposes of remedy as follows:

WARNING.....WATCH YOUR MOUTH!

OoE......continue mopping.... :)

Officer of Engineers
30 Dec 04,, 03:22
Well, the best book I've that puts it layman's term is The Third World War (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=dp_searchBox_1/002-0076155-6955253?url=index%3Dbooks%26dispatch%3Dsearch%26re sults-process%3Dbin&field-keywords=Third+World+War&x=13&y=10) by General Sir John Hackett. It's available from AMAZON for under a $1.

Officer of Engineers
30 Dec 04,, 03:23
You are in violation of Paragraph 2 of the forum rules. Therefore, I will utilize Paragraph 6 for purposes of remedy as follows:

WARNING.....WATCH YOUR MOUTH!

OoE......continue mopping.... :)

My thanks, Lady Moderator. Will do.

Tronic
30 Dec 04,, 07:48
Ok, Sir. I'm sooooooooo sorry. You win and I loose. I guess I underestimated the might of the Canadian Military.

Hmmm... So Canada IS capable of being a match to China. See I learn something new everyday.

I salute you...

Anthem playing in background...



Oh Canadaaaa....
Big old empty laaaand...
We stand on guard for theee...
or sumthin like that!!!

lol, sorry for that. My teacher actually taught me that one!!!
See!!! you can't say I don't learn anything in school!!!

Veni Vidi Vici
30 Dec 04,, 19:26
Ok, Sir. I'm sooooooooo sorry. You win and I loose. I guess I underestimated the might of the Canadian Military.

Hmmm... So Canada IS capable of being a match to China. See I learn something new everyday.

I salute you...

Anthem playing in background...



Oh Canadaaaa....
Big old empty laaaand...
We stand on guard for theee...
or sumthin like that!!!

lol, sorry for that. My teacher actually taught me that one!!!
See!!! you can't say I don't learn anything in school!!!

Sad that you insult your own nation. Truly sad.

Herr von India
30 Dec 04,, 19:53
Why discuss Canada when the topic in concern is Asia. It is nowhere near Asia. Canada doesnt have a dispute and sould not get into. China is growing but no one can trust a communist regime. It might fall apart anytime. It is clearly unpredictable. Best bet will be India, Worlds largest democracy. China upto some extend falls into the same category as N. Korea, Iran and Pakistan. But no one admits it openly as there is huge western investment in China. Anyway China should leave Taiwan alone and give up the occupation of Tibet as Tibetians are not Chinese. China is not Germany and Tibet is not Austria. It is high time China realizes that.

antelope
31 Dec 04,, 00:12
Best bet will be India, Worlds largest democracy.

India has the potential to be the worlds strongest power, however that potential has gone unfullfilled for decades.

Despite recent economic improvements it is still up in the air if India will be able to resist the stifling government control and bloat that seems to forever stunt its birth as a super power. I thought India had finally broke the barrier but I fear the recent election shows that India is returning back to its normal form.

An anemic India is a strong power. If India could ever follow the economic example of China, Japan, America, or South Korea it would find itself on a table sitting with only one or two others on this Earth.

Officer of Engineers
31 Dec 04,, 03:12
Why discuss Canada when the topic in concern is Asia. It is nowhere near Asia. Canada doesnt have a dispute and sould not get into. China is growing but no one can trust a communist regime. It might fall apart anytime. It is clearly unpredictable. Best bet will be India, Worlds largest democracy. China upto some extend falls into the same category as N. Korea, Iran and Pakistan. But no one admits it openly as there is huge western investment in China. Anyway China should leave Taiwan alone and give up the occupation of Tibet as Tibetians are not Chinese. China is not Germany and Tibet is not Austria. It is high time China realizes that.

First, Canada is a Pacific Rim country. So, what happens in Asia has dired effects in Canada.

2nd, Get off the India vs China crap. They're two very different countries with very diffrerent histories and very different futures.

3rd, China fallen apart has since long past. If it has not fallen apart with the death of Deng Xia Peng, argueably the greatest man alive in the 20th Century (name another man who dragged one billion people kicking and screaming from the 19th Century and kicked them into the 21st Century), it will not fall apart along the lines of Yugoslavia nor North Korea.

4th, Tibet is Chinese territory whether you like it or not. Everyone recognizes this, including the Dali Lama.

Officer of Engineers
31 Dec 04,, 04:11
LCol, remember our first days together, eh? Oh man, looking back, I did not realize that I sounded like an idiot, playing those pissing contests between India and China. But it was certainly fun reading everybody's innovative insults such as Santa, Sharptooth, and others before it truly denigrated into a pig's sty.

Well, just recalling old times, the difference between you, Jai Hind, and the rest of the BRF crowd was that you actually took time to read what I've said. I think back then Johann was acting as some kind of mediator but when anyone come up with a good point, I acknowledged it. I was also amazed that you all took my points (even though I was not diplomatic about it and acted like the smart assed Major who knew everything that I was) and took my points to heart.

You have the makings of a good officer. I am saddened that you've chosed Law above military service. I know that you would be a good lawyer because I know you would've made one hell of an officer.

You're not afraid to stand up for your points but willing to listen once proven wrong.

lemontree
31 Dec 04,, 04:52
I am saddened that you've chosed Law above military service.
A lawyer :eek: :eek: blademaster, you are entering a criminal world :biggrin: :biggrin:
Just kidding, but never give up on principles of truth, and always defend the innocent. :) All the best.

aussie
31 Dec 04,, 05:36
Nostre Damus predicted the world would come to an end in the 21st century...

Tronic
31 Dec 04,, 07:40
Sad that you insult your own nation. Truly sad.

pfff... Canada my nation??? I'm only using the education of this country. I see no future in Canada for me. In about two years i'm plannin to do optical fibre's engineering and after doing some career research, i found out how hard it would be to get a job into a decent company in Canada. Canada has a VERY small high tech industry. If you plannin into going to services (military, doctor, police, teacher, or basically anything that is serving the people) then Canada is a very good place. But if you see yourself in engineering then you better pack up for America after finishing your studies here. :)

lemontree
31 Dec 04,, 07:51
VVV,
Don't grudge tronic for that attitude. I guess all imegrents are like that.

smilingassassin
31 Dec 04,, 08:19
Nostre Damus predicted the world would come to an end in the 21st century...

I beleave the exact translation was the world AS WE KNOW IT will end in the 21st century, the Myans stated 2012 as the exact date and IIRC thats only when the predictions Calander ends, which could mean the clairvoyant who wrote the calander simply stopped writing or died.

My own personal beleif is that the myth of Atlantis is acctually true, and that we litterally blew our selves back into the stone age. Myths and legends are timeless and are usually basis of factual history. The story of Atlantis could very well have some truth to it and we may be heading towards the next mythical cataclysm.

Samudra
31 Dec 04,, 11:21
I beleave the exact translation was the world AS WE KNOW IT will end in the 21st century, the Myans stated 2012 as the exact date and IIRC thats only when the predictions Calander ends, which could mean the clairvoyant who wrote the calander simply stopped writing or died.

My own personal beleif is that the myth of Atlantis is acctually true, and that we litterally blew our selves back into the stone age. Myths and legends are timeless and are usually basis of factual history. The story of Atlantis could very well have some truth to it and we may be heading towards the next mythical cataclysm.

If you would want another example , id say you got to study the Sindhu-Saraswati Civilisation aka Indus Valley Civilisation.For long , us Indians knew three rivers embraced in Prayag , found only two on ground and announced the third was underground. :biggrin:

Now slowly , we come to know that there indeed was a Saraswati river and that it had dried up and us people had lost all knowledge about the river.

So there is every chance that Atlantis once existed.Just that those unbelievable stories could be exaggerations.You need a bit of imgination to figure out what they talk about in such so called fancy stories.

Blademaster
31 Dec 04,, 23:04
Well, just recalling old times, the difference between you, Jai Hind, and the rest of the BRF crowd was that you actually took time to read what I've said. I think back then Johann was acting as some kind of mediator but when anyone come up with a good point, I acknowledged it. I was also amazed that you all took my points (even though I was not diplomatic about it and acted like the smart assed Major who knew everything that I was) and took my points to heart.

You have the makings of a good officer. I am saddened that you've chosed Law above military service. I know that you would be a good lawyer because I know you would've made one hell of an officer.

You're not afraid to stand up for your points but willing to listen once proven wrong.

Sir, thanks for the compliments and your regard for me. It does mean a great deal to me. I appreciate it. I would choose military service if they would let me but because of my handicap, they would not let me in.

In law, I hope I can do some things that will help the country and make a better future.

Thanks for your faith in me.

Veni Vidi Vici
01 Jan 05,, 15:20
VVV,
Don't grudge tronic for that attitude. I guess all imegrents are like that.

Sorry, Its just my worst peeve. Disloyality to ones country and dishonoring those who have died to give it the freedom and prosperity it enjoys is a disgrace.

aussie
01 Jan 05,, 23:34
Very Fair comment VVV...

Ray
02 Jan 05,, 03:25
Superpower does not mean only having fancy weapons and a large armed force.

To be a superpower one has to have the some of the following too:

1. A super economy that can squeeze the others when required. As also get countries on its bandwagon with just a wag of the finger.

2. An international standing, politically.

3. An abundance of strategic mineral and other resources.

4. A excellent industrial and defence production structure.

5. A population that is highly patriotic whose morale will not sink at the first bombing or having military casualties.

6. Adequate population to sustain the loss of manpower in battle.

And then come a motivated, well trained, well experienced large armed force and hi tech weapons.

Officer of Engineers
02 Jan 05,, 04:06
Sorry, Its just my worst peeve. Disloyality to ones country and dishonoring those who have died to give it the freedom and prosperity it enjoys is a disgrace.


It's the soldier, not the reporter who has given us
Freedom of the Press.

It's the soldier, not the poet, who has given us
Freedom of Speech.

It's the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the
Freedom to Demonstrate.

It's the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the
Right to a Fair Trial.

It's the soldier who salutes the flag, serves under the flag and
whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who gives the protestor the right to burn the flag.

-Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC

Ray
03 Jan 05,, 06:44
Colonel,

That is a good quote.

Tronic
03 Jan 05,, 15:48
Sorry, Its just my worst peeve. Disloyality to ones country and dishonoring those who have died to give it the freedom and prosperity it enjoys is a disgrace.

I'm only dishonoring Canada, not my country!!!lol. :biggrin: I actually respect the people that fought for MY country, and I don't stop anyone Canadian for respecting people that fougt for them.
Actually, i wasn't dishonoring Canada either. I just cracked at a joke at their national anthem. Their anthem goes like... "Our Home and Native land..." Actually I don't think Canada is any white kids native land, only aboriginal peoples Native land. So you see, the anthem doesn't suite anyone blck, brown or white as their forefathers most likely migrated from other countries. It's only the native land of aboriginal people.

Veni Vidi Vici
03 Jan 05,, 15:58
Actually, i wasn't dishonoring Canada .

Fooled the hell outa me.

Ray
03 Jan 05,, 15:59
Tronic,

If you are enjoying the hospitality of Canada, I think it is wrong to dishonour your host.

I don't know which your native country but in India, that would be sacrilege as would any insult to the guest.

Tronic
03 Jan 05,, 16:09
Tronic,

If you are enjoying the hospitality of Canada, I think it is wrong to dishonour your host.

I don't know which your native country but in India, that would be sacrilege as would any insult to the guest.

What hospitality??? I have been forced to study here by my parents. I mean they could've sent me somewhere warmer to study but nooo... If it was up to me, i would pack up my bags and run back home. I have had to live like this for 7 friggin years. Living alone in a country with everyone you know sitting in a different country... man... you seriously don't know how hard it is. And where ever you go, the people here soo friggin proud. I mean, they keep tellin me that people like me come to Canada because of "push" factors like war, civil disorder, or sumthin. I mean they just assume that thats why people like me come to Canada. The truth is, our parents sitting back home think that studying in Western countries is so great, tell you the truth, studies in India are much better, yet the only thing is, it's easier to get a job here (well... easier in America) then India because the competition there is SOOO friggin high.

Julie
03 Jan 05,, 16:25
What hospitality??? I have been forced to study here by my parents. I mean they could've sent me somewhere warmer to study but nooo... If it was up to me, i would pack up my bags and run back home. I have had to live like this for 7 friggin years. Living alone in a country with everyone you know sitting in a different country... man... you seriously don't know how hard it is. And where ever you go, the people here soo friggin proud. I mean, they keep tellin me that people like me come to Canada because of "push" factors like war, civil disorder, or sumthin. I mean they just assume that thats why people like me come to Canada. The truth is, our parents sitting back home think that studying in Western countries is so great, tell you the truth, studies in India are much better, yet the only thing is, it's easier to get a job here (well... easier in America) then India because the competition there is SOOO friggin high.Sounds like to me you have a wet diaper and someone needs to change it.

If you will read what you just posted, it sounds to me like your parents are also well aware of those circumstances you have described, and have made their decisions based upon them. You should be thankful to have parents as caring enough to leave their homeland for your best interests. You have just as much to be proud of as the people in the country allowing you this passage to your future.

Stop whining.

Jay
03 Jan 05,, 21:50
What hospitality??? I have been forced to study here by my parents.

Well, you got accepted in a Canadian University and they let you live in that country like a first rate citizen. Thats called hospitality for a start...

Also, you dont have the guts to say to your parents that you dont want to be in Canada. Obviously they knew a lot about Canada, than you do.

And *****ing a country, regardless of Canada or India in a military forum, when you have servicemen from those countries posting in the same forum is uncalled for, and you really need to think about posting in this forum twice.

lemontree
04 Jan 05,, 05:06
Tronic,
The only Canadians I came across were some clients of my company from Calgery, an oil company (Precision Drilling). They were very respectful, and decent gentlemen, very unlike some from another country (which I shall not name).
You may find the culture different and feel isolated, but that is how things are in the west, unlike the east where everyone wants to peep into your life. :)

Tronic
04 Jan 05,, 17:13
First of all, Julie, you can't tell me what my circumstances were. I don't mean to say ALL Canadians but most of the canadians just "assume" stuff. I wasn't a two year old baby that I didn't know what my circumstances in India were. I mean, most of the Canadians here, don't know ANYTHING about the world outside Canada/America. The only reason I had to come to Canada to study was becuase back home in my country, the comptetion to get in a decent university/college is WAY TOO HIGH. I mean here, I just passed Grade 12, applied for university and got admission, just like that. That is the reason my parents sent me to Canada, not cuz of anything else. Life in India is MUCH better than Canada if you've got a good job. I mean i've seen people here depressed 24/7 cuz they can't afford everything here. Bank loans are SOOO common here. I mean 95% of the students in university are taking loans from the bank just to pay for university. I mean, all the things that we have got in India, like a house or a car, people over here have to buy that same stuff by doing monthly payments. Very few people here can afford to pay for their house at once. So too much tension here. lol, and the houses here seem like servant quarters compared to houses in India.
Sure India might have 200 million people under poverty still but look at the billion people which aren't living under poverty.

Officer of Engineers
04 Jan 05,, 17:29
First,

Let me clarify a few things. Universities in Canada are subsidized. There is no way anyone can get a Bachelor's Degree on the small amount that Canadians actually pay.

2nd, 1st year university is the equalizer. Withe bewildering number of high schools with different budgets and different provincial requirements, there is no way for any university to know the baseline of students they're getting. 2nd year university is the determination who is actually qualified academically.

3rd, it's a damned Bachelor's degree. In other words, means absolutely nothing in the scheme of things. If anyone think that they're such hotshots with a minor academic achievement, then they have not seen the real world.

I had to get my Masters before I was even qualified for my promotion to Major.

So, Tronc has absolutely no idea about the Canadian Academic system. In truth, a large part of his education is subsidized by Canadian tax dollars, the ungrateful lout.

Lastly comparing Canadian to Indian standards of living is ludicrous. The majority of Canadians live with a frost line. Of course, our cities, houses, infrastructure are high when compared to India. We dig a 18 foot deep foundation not because every Canadian wants a basement but because so that the house don't move in the middle fo winter.

Tronic
04 Jan 05,, 19:26
You got me confused, what do you mean "high"??? The houses I have seen, when you walk in, the ceiling is only about 7 feet high. And the whole neighbourhood looks identical here. There's only been one area where I saw nice houses, "Woodbridge". And even there those houses look nothing compared to the upper class houses in India. I mean, the "lawn" in front of each house is so small. No one has huge gardens in front of their house. lol, One day I watched a lady watering a bunch of plants grouped together and she told me, she was watering her garden, lol.

And about the education system... I had to pay my ass off for the tution fee. I almost went broke when I first came. I mean the tution fee was around $25,000, To stay in the campus and for other stuff i had to pay around $8,000. And then they charge extra for medical. And thats only for one year.

Ok, I only said what I saw. If you think it's cheaper here, then thats just you. I'm not going to argue about it. I mean I have seen University students on medication because of the high levels of stress they have to go through.

I guess everyone has feelings for their country and if you think that life is better in Canada than I respect you for that. Maybe for you life in Canada is good cuz you grew up here but for me life in India suites me cuz I grew up there, and maybe just as I don't like to live here, you probably won't like to live there. So, I aint going to argue against you about it.

P.S. Also, when living standards are compared, India ends up MUCH MUCH lower than Canada and thats because the poor people in India are also accounted for. When comparing middle/upper class of the two countries the results will most likely be different.

Officer of Engineers
04 Jan 05,, 20:14
You got me confused, what do you mean "high"??? The houses I have seen, when you walk in, the ceiling is only about 7 feet high. And the whole neighbourhood looks identical here. There's only been one area where I saw nice houses, "Woodbridge". And even there those houses look nothing compared to the upper class houses in India. I mean, the "lawn" in front of each house is so small. No one has huge gardens in front of their house. lol, One day I watched a lady watering a bunch of plants grouped together and she told me, she was watering her garden, lol.

Associated costs are much higher than India's. India don't have to plow their streets and get rid of the snow in winter. Toronto doesn't count since it's one of the warmest cities in Canada.

Check the services also. Portable water, fire department, libraries, police, sewer, garbage, bus, roads (pot hole repairts), etc. India's population concentration allows her to spend money elsewhere wheras the relative dispursement of the Canadian population forces tax dollars and money to upkeep Lines of Communications with far more regularity and expense.

Again, apples to oranges comparison.


And about the education system... I had to pay my ass off for the tution fee. I almost went broke when I first came. I mean the tution fee was around $25,000, To stay in the campus and for other stuff i had to pay around $8,000. And then they charge extra for medical. And thats only for one year.

While foreign student fees are much higher than regular Canadians, it is by no means anywhere near comparable to the true cost of your education.



Ok, I only said what I saw. If you think it's cheaper here, then thats just you. I'm not going to argue about it. I guess everyone has feelings for their country and if you think that life is better in Canada than I respect you for that. Maybe for you life in Canada is good cuz you grew up here but for me life in India suites me cuz I grew up there, and maybe just as I don't like to live here, you probably won't like to live there. So, I aint going to argue against you about it.

I've lived through some of the worst war zones on Earth. As bad as you think you've got it, it is by no means anywhere near what the Brigadier, the Capatain (Ray and Lemontree were members of the Indian Army) and I experienced.

I've met a grandmother who lost her entire family and her house has been reduced to one room and she could not be happier having Canadian soldiers visit her everyday and she cooked some of the best chicken soup I've ever tasted. She refuses to accept any money or food from us (we had to sneak them onto her door at night while she slept).

I've saw a little girl who cried because she ran out of paper on her school notebook and then her mother couldn't stop crying when I gave her my notepad.

I never seen kids so excited as when we made a delivery of crates of paper notebooks and pencils sent by Canadian school children.

Be thankful for what you have, son. That's the lesson those people taught me. Don't be miserable for what you don't have.

Julie
04 Jan 05,, 20:30
Be thankful for what you have, son. That's the lesson those people taught me. Don't be miserable for what you don't have.That's what I was trying to tell him.

It is not Canada or the Canadians' fault he is where he is. If it is anyone's fault, it is India's for not having what you need to stay there. Sacrifices are the strife of life Tronic. ;)

Veni Vidi Vici
04 Jan 05,, 21:40
They were very respectful, and decent gentlemen, very unlike some from another country (which I shall not name).


I have my speculations ;)

Tronic
05 Jan 05,, 00:07
Associated costs are much higher than India's. India don't have to plow their streets and get rid of the snow in winter. Toronto doesn't count since it's one of the warmest cities in Canada.

Check the services also. Portable water, fire department, libraries, police, sewer, garbage, bus, roads (pot hole repairts), etc. India's population concentration allows her to spend money elsewhere wheras the relative dispursement of the Canadian population forces tax dollars and money to upkeep Lines of Communications with far more regularity and expense.

Again, apples to oranges comparison.



While foreign student fees are much higher than regular Canadians, it is by no means anywhere near comparable to the true cost of your education.




I've lived through some of the worst war zones on Earth. As bad as you think you've got it, it is by no means anywhere near what the Brigadier, the Capatain (Ray and Lemontree were members of the Indian Army) and I experienced.

I've met a grandmother who lost her entire family and her house has been reduced to one room and she could not be happier having Canadian soldiers visit her everyday and she cooked some of the best chicken soup I've ever tasted. She refuses to accept any money or food from us (we had to sneak them onto her door at night while she slept).

I've saw a little girl who cried because she ran out of paper on her school notebook and then her mother couldn't stop crying when I gave her my notepad.

I never seen kids so excited as when we made a delivery of crates of paper notebooks and pencils sent by Canadian school children.

Be thankful for what you have, son. That's the lesson those people taught me. Don't be miserable for what you don't have.

OoE, sorry if I sounded like an ass but you have NO idea the control our parents have on our life. I would've been happy to wait in India for another year and then give the entrance exam again but in my world, parents rule like dictators. Thats the reason I sortta get all whiny about having to stay here and all. You could say i'm diverting my anger somewhere else, but sorry if I happen to offend anyone.

And Julie... actually India does have the engineering universities I wanted to get into but just I couldn't pass the entrance exam, lol. Heck it's hard!!!

Julie
05 Jan 05,, 01:30
And Julie... actually India does have the engineering universities I wanted to get into but just I couldn't pass the entrance exam, lol. Heck it's hard!!! As long as you are still headed in the right direction, it doesn't matter which route you take. You have to take a longer route, that's all. You'll make it. :)

lemontree
05 Jan 05,, 07:03
Tronic,
You are lucky to have parents who can provide well for you. The competition in India is though, but then so is it in other places, but at least you have a chance there.
The cost of housing is not cheap in India contrary to your belief. I'm talking about cities. Every where young people have to take a loan to buy a house, unless you have a millionaire father. Don't make the mistake of converting dollars into rupees every time you pay for something. :)
Enjoy the good things of life, you have not seen the real India. Ask Brig. Ray, sir. Being from defence backgrounds we have had the advantage to visiting almost every nook and corner of India. So I say you are lucky, enjoy it. ;)

Ray
05 Jan 05,, 08:39
I think I should clear some misunderstanding.

Getting into college is very, very difficult. For specialised colleges, you have to take an All India exam. Compare that with the number of chaps wanting to get it (Our population is huge and so the aspirants are too many). Very difficult. Therefore, those who can afford it, go elsewhere in the world.

Many doctors are from the USSR colleges and also engineers.

There are rich people, higher middle class, middle class, lower middle class and poor in India.

The first live in palatial houses. The second group in nice flats. The third group in not so good flats, the lower middle class in coloy type of flats and the poor in shacks. The poor is the majority.

Things are looking up for India. The pay is going up. Today since everything is available, one does not hanker for foreign goods at all, as it used to be in the past.

Indians now go on foreign holidays, which was only a dream a few years back.

Our civic systems are not upto standards at all. Our roads which were horrible, is looking up. Our public transportation requires much to be desired, but flyovers, monorail, underground and things like that are making things better.

Well, India has miles to go before she rests.

Our IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) is world class. The US endorses the same. Most of the Indians doing well in the US are from the IIT. Getting into them or the MBA College is next to impossible. You have to be real brilliant.

An advantage India has is that because of cheaper labour, most households have house servants. It is a great advantage. Plumbers, electricians etc are cheaper. That is why we are not so good at doing these fixing ourselves.

Colonel,

Snow is a problem in India too. Srinagar, Shimla, Darjeeling and many other places and the highways linking them. Clearing snow is awful. But what is real worrying for India are the floods and the drought. These happens too regularly.

Notwithstanding, there are many areas where Canada or the west are far ahead and better organised than India.

Job opportunities are much better in the West. That is why there is such a huge migration from countries like India.

India is getting better all the time. But time seems to be a snail! ;)

Ray
05 Jan 05,, 08:58
The villages are also looking up but the bullock cart still reigns supreme along with tractors and combined harvesters because there are rich farmers and very poor and marginal farmers.

Vilalges have cars, but the main trasportation is bicycles and motorcycles. All dusty and ramshackled because of horrid roads.

Our Highways are being converted to world class standards and much has been done, but still a long way to go......................

India is such a contrast and so exasperating.

Officer of Engineers
05 Jan 05,, 10:23
Notwithstanding, there are many areas where Canada or the west are far ahead and better organised than India.

Sir,

My point is that you cannot compare India to Canada or even to China. She is a unique country with unique problems. Place Canada in the exact same position as India and I am quite sure we would have come up with the exact same solutions to the exact same problems. Situation is that we don't have the exact same position.

I've learned long ago that such comparisons are meaningless and it would be a fool to state that Canada has nothing to learn from India.

Ray
05 Jan 05,, 12:45
Precisely.

The situation is different.

I wrote that to just give some info about India and the vast difference between the rich and the poor.

MY emphasis was to state that we are trying to be modern when abject poverty also abounds! Maybe I could not explain well.

Also, Tronic has a point. It is very diffficult to get into a college. He is lucky that his parents are rich and can afford to out hism through college in Canada. A normal Indian family can't send their children so easily unlcess they borrow heavily from the banks and then spend the rest of their lives paying back!

An example of how tough it is. NRI means Non Resident Indians.


The Supreme Court today rejected the combined appeal of the Bengal government and 69 students to reconsider its order cancelling their admission to the MBBS course for paying enhanced fees under the NRI quota last year.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1050105/asp/frontpage/story_4214137.asp


I can't even afford to go to the next town!
:biggrin:

As I said before, Tronic should be grateful to the host country. I sure would dislike if someone stayed in India and complained.

Tronic
05 Jan 05,, 12:47
Yeah, Rey sort of summed everything up there (and also the reasons I couldn't get it a college/university there :redface: )

keshto patel
11 Jan 05,, 23:54
First the defination of a superpower:

A superpower is a state with the ability to influence events or project power on a wide scale. In modern terms, this may imply an entity with a strong economy, a large population, and strong armed forces, including air power and satellite capabilities, and a huge arsenal of weapons of mass destruction.

Now on above parameters connect the dots and come out with answers on five countries whichever they be. Before this you were just slogging in the air;)

TUSAS1
28 Apr 08,, 07:29
The term superpower is apt to mislead. Hence, I prefer the term "Regional Military Power".

My top 5 Regional Military Powers in Asia are as follows:

(1) Russia
(2) China
(3) Turkey
(4) India
(5) Japan

I selected them due to the following:

I do not take into consideration Nuclear arms, as (1) It is not know who has what exactly. Two, Turkey, Japan are under the US Nuclear umbrella. Three, Turkey also has the NATO umbrella and is host to over 90 - B61 Nuclear Warheads. Turkey also posseses the technology and Uranium and Plutonium reserves to acquire such weapons in a very short time. Alternatively, Pakistan can also provide Turkey with ready made weapons, under its pact agreement.
Quality not Quantity is the best determinant of force in my opinion.
Turkey is up to Nato Standards. It has a very strong Navy and Air Force, not to mention the second largest standing armed forces in NATO. It can also project medium force due to the KC-135 Tankers and LPD.
Japan albeit lacking the numbers has the technological advantage.

Officer of Engineers
28 Apr 08,, 07:42
No longer interested in these p!ssing contests.