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Franco Lolan
19 Nov 04,, 23:25
What is AIM-120C range?
Can AIM-120C engage ant-ship missiles such as Sunbrun, Granit, or Harpoon?

intelgurl
21 Nov 04,, 04:02
What is AIM-120C range?
Can AIM-120C engage ant-ship missiles such as Sunbrun, Granit, or Harpoon?
The 120 has a range of approx 35-45 miles at a speed of Mach 4.
The Sunburn travels a little over half that speed, therefore I would say that the 120 is physically capable of bringing a Sunburn down - but actual success would depend mostly on the targeting radar ... and what angle of attack the 120 would use...
I wouldn't bet on the 120 scoring head on, but it might chase the Sunburn down from the rear or side and take it out.

Just guessing....

ajaybhutani
21 Nov 04,, 05:02
lemme add another question along with it Whats the range for R77..since these are the two comparable missiles in east and west.
About the sunburn. There are two important factors that play somerole
1. the radar cross section of the sunburn
2. the electronics of the AMRAAM. a normal fighter can turn 9G while missiles like sunburn can turn much better and theres every possibility that the AMRAAM would not be able to guide itself on the sunburn as sunburn is more agile than wha5 aMRAAM avionis can handle unless of course if AMRASM is designed keeping in mind that it will be used against stuff like SUNBURN.

Bill
21 Nov 04,, 08:46
A missile has no idea WHEN to turn though....a plane does.

AMRAAM should be pretty good at vampire interception from a kinematics standpoint, but i don't know if it's ever been tested.

BTW, AMRAAM has about 30% longer range when fired from a supercruising F-22.

And just for the record, AMRAAM has a speed of Mach4 plus...

ajaybhutani
21 Nov 04,, 09:45
todays missiles are no more simple trajectories . i ant say about sunburns but esp new ruisie missiles have pretty agile tajectories and they do take steep turns in high SAM regions .U are right with the fact that they dont know whe to turn bec its prefeeded when to turn and they cant see ther amraam coming their way. I geuss pretty soon we will have the ones that can see AMRAAMS too can reacts.

Franco Lolan
23 Nov 04,, 00:38
R77 has range almost twice of AMRAAM, troubling

ajaybhutani
23 Nov 04,, 01:13
1. i havent foudn asingle link stating the range of AIM120C version. which is the latest one. The 50km is for basic 102A version.
2. The original R77 range is suposed to be somethin like 50 km . Its the advanced version that has longer range .
3. My logic goes like this .Americans who are investing so much compared to russian wont leave their missiles with half the range of Russian missiles as this makes sure that in an AA combat the russian plane with R77 will always take over an american plane with american missiles. and since the range of AIM120C is not available i guess it should be comparable to R77 latest version.

Franco Lolan
23 Nov 04,, 01:29
makes sense. this sounds very weak, however, in Novalogic's Mig-29 Fulcrum PC Simulator, the R77 has range, if I remember correctly of almost 75 km. The AMRAAAM, in Novalogic's F-22 Raptor PC Simulator, has a range of 25 miles.
Are these numbers that Novalogic used realistic? Particularly for the AMRAAM?

ajaybhutani
23 Nov 04,, 06:01
they surely will be but the point is which version they took for reference to get teh values.
Another thing due to raptors supercruise capability since most of the missiles it will fire will be at say mach 1.5 or something which increases the range of AMRAAM by 20%-30% or so( i dnt remember the exact figure) .
Theres AIM120D being developed with a longer range.
About R77 in the discussions on MKI vs F15 people raised doubts over effectiveness of R77 since its belived that R77 original versions not good in navigation control and thus were real bad in performance .Though its belived taht the newer versions donot have these issues.
Also theres another versionn of R77 ( PD or somethin) being developed in Russia and might be up for sale too.
I ahvent found any reference about which version of R77 does China has.
About the 172 somthin u mentioned i found a reference on indodefence.com its KS172 a awac killer missile under development seen as a potential Jv beetween india and russia afte r the success of brahmos.
link is here http://www.indiadefence.com/collab.htm

It has a range of 400km and targetted against awacs. but not inservie anywhere yet. Again if india is participating then i dount chineese will get it.and yes the chineese fighters (except MKK3 which will be developed after MKK supplies finish and mkk2 too) will be able to ustilize the range of this missile to a considerable extent. Even with a missile of this kind the chineese fighters which will see AWACs at say 150km-200 km (or somthing) ( not even track) will be already seen and tracked by Japaneese awacs at ragnes like 400km adn the F16/F15 will be sent to target them. it will be next to impossibel for chinese fighters to reach awcs unless they take out all /most of the japaneese fighters first.

Franco Lolan
24 Nov 04,, 02:22
see what you mean

intelgurl
30 Nov 04,, 16:28
I asked around the office (Raytheon) and all I could get was that the range of the 120C was "significantly more" than the "A". Basically I got more info off the internet than from the actual people who would know.

Bill
30 Nov 04,, 16:59
"R77 has range almost twice of AMRAAM, troubling"

Not really. ECM, superior western radar, and LO tend to negate that edge to negligibility.

Bill
30 Nov 04,, 17:00
"I asked around the office (Raytheon) and all I could get was that the range of the 120C was "significantly more" than the "A". Basically I got more info off the internet than from the actual people who would know."

As it should be. ;)

ajaybhutani
01 Dec 04,, 07:16
"R77 has range almost twice of AMRAAM, troubling"

Not really. ECM, superior western radar, and LO tend to negate that edge to negligibility.
k. lets take a SU30MKI then its radar is comparable to AESA in USAFF15( though its debatable what radar US used in cope india exercises still it must be the best of US radars.. MK's detected F15 at the same time F15 detected them and i m talking about MKI which is way ahead of MK version.:D) with its Israeli & french avionics and ECM.(LO can be neglected as both see each other at same time) how much chance do u think western fighters will stand aginst MKI with R77???

Franco Lolan
02 Dec 04,, 05:31
exactly

Bill
02 Dec 04,, 06:56
It's not debatable what radar the USAF used in Cope India, they were APG-63(V)1 pulse-dopplers.

The APG-63(V)2 AESA arrays were not commited.

F-15 is not LO.

ECM was not used by the Eagles.

Anything else you wanted to add?

ajaybhutani
02 Dec 04,, 09:56
1. i just used cope india to compare the radar detection ranges.And yes its debatable .We have debated a lot on this in MKI vs F15 thread.Please check it out.
2. F15 today forms the back bone of USAF dsnt it??Lets talk about rite now rather than about the LO fighters about to be inducted.
3. MK's and MKI's use israeli and french avionics ECM's etc. ( western) . So i think we can assume the ECM to be comparable.To F15's.

4. All us allys will get only JSF which will be competing with PAK-FA . For AF's other tahn USAF using AMRAAM wouldnt make sense.

ajaybhutani
02 Dec 04,, 10:02
exactly
That is if AMRAAM's range is not comparable to R77. But frankly we havent really for any link for AIM120C range .Which debars me from saying that They will kill the western fighters.

It is strange that US with so much of military spending( half of what the whole world spends) dsnt have a A2A missile comparable to R77. It makes me tend to believe that US might be using some different criteria to define the range of AMRAAM.Or just that Us couldnt build even a R77 comparable stuff with all the billions they spend.

Bill
02 Dec 04,, 16:09
It's not debatable what radars were used.

They were APG-63(V)1's.

No ECM was used during Cope India.

Bill
02 Dec 04,, 16:11
"Or just that Us couldnt build even a R77 comparable stuff with all the billions they spend."

You ever heard of Phoenix?

Has almost twice the range of the R-77, and much higher performance with triple the warhead.

Phoenix first entered service in the mid 1970's.

Franco Lolan
03 Dec 04,, 01:15
Phoenixes are useless in scenarious now. F14s will be gone soon and that was the only platform from where they can be launched.

Bill
03 Dec 04,, 05:40
"Phoenixes are useless in scenarious now. F14s will be gone soon and that was the only platform from where they can be launched."

That's irrelevant to the point that was made.

The point that was made was that the west could not field a missile of equal performance as the R.77.

I merely pointed out that not only could the US do so, but they did so THIRTY YEARS AGO.

ajaybhutani
04 Dec 04,, 02:01
It's not debatable what radars were used.

They were APG-63(V)1's.

No ECM was used during Cope India.
links for radars please??Also please do check the MKI vs F15 thread as there is issue was left as "cannot be certain."

ajaybhutani
04 Dec 04,, 02:17
"Or just that Us couldnt build even a R77 comparable stuff with all the billions they spend."

You ever heard of Phoenix?

Has almost twice the range of the R-77, and much higher performance with triple the warhead.

Phoenix first entered service in the mid 1970's.
but is it there in their main fighters like F15/F16/even JSF/F22.??Then whats the use??
And yes since u are saying that it has better performance, can u please guide us to the source where they are compared/data taht u used to state taht pheonix has better performance

ajaybhutani
04 Dec 04,, 02:17
and yes if pheonix was so good why are americans not keeing it??

ajaybhutani
04 Dec 04,, 02:19
"Phoenixes are useless in scenarious now. F14s will be gone soon and that was the only platform from where they can be launched."

That's irrelevant to the point that was made.

The point that was made was that the west could not field a missile of equal performance as the R.77.

I merely pointed out that not only could the US do so, but they did so THIRTY YEARS AGO.
the point still remains.. the phoenix is going out of service making US still without a missile equal/better in performance?

Bill
04 Dec 04,, 05:54
The Phoenix is going out of service despite the fact that the 'mighty' R-77 is in service in numerous nations.

Don't that tell you something?

Well?

The radars used were (v)1's, i assure you, and no ECM was used at all by the eagles, and they flew with no jammer cover or AWACs. The Eagles also fought outnumbered in the entire engagement.

The first combat ready F/A-22 was delivered to the USAF two months ago, within a year and a half their will be a whole squadron in service.

AMRAAM launched from a supercruising F-22 has approx 30% more range.

I see no reason for concern, and OBVIOUSLY, neither does the USN or USAF.

Franco Lolan
04 Dec 04,, 21:39
"I merely pointed out that not only could the US do so, but they did so THIRTY YEARS AGO."

then have we regressed?

ajaybhutani
04 Dec 04,, 21:56
The Phoenix is going out of service despite the fact that the 'mighty' R-77 is in service in numerous nations.

Don't that tell you something?

Tell me what ?? the americans might be ready but what about japaneese ,UK etc etc??



Well?

The radars used were (v)1's, i assure you, and no ECM was used at all by the eagles, and they flew with no jammer cover or AWACs. The Eagles also fought outnumbered in the entire engagement.

sorry dude i cannot take ur assurances in this case. give me a link or else "i assure u that its aesa v(2)".. ??
And as far as the jamer or AWAC cover comes then su30's have jammers which were not used too.. and indians are getting Phalcon. So its comparable ..


The first combat ready F/A-22 was delivered to the USAF two months ago, within a year and a half their will be a whole squadron in service.

1. Thats all about only USAF?? what about oterh NATO members . Can they face the challenge.. This issue came up while me franco and others were discussing the outcome of Japaneese and chineese air war..which led to the issue of AMRAAM range vs R77 range. and in this case the AMRAAM range shorfall makes a lot of difference in the outcome.



AMRAAM launched from a supercruising F-22 has approx 30% more range.

I know that for more than a month .but what about AMRAAM in F15/F16 vs R77 in SU30 for non american AF's arent getting any F22.



I see no reason for concern, and OBVIOUSLY, neither does the USN or USAF.
Not for US but other NATO and US allies isnt it a matter of concern

ajaybhutani
04 Dec 04,, 21:57
BTW what is the number of F22 US is buying?? is it really nough??

Bill
05 Dec 04,, 02:40
They were (V)1's, how am i supposed to 'link' you to a living human being who participated in the exercise?

It doesn't matter whether you 'accept' it or not, the fact is they were (V)1's.

Any aircraft that doesn't wear the colors of the United States is not my concern, so i was not speaking to them.

Currently the buy figure for the F-22 is set at approx. 300 aircraft. For filling purely the air supremacy role, yes....that is enough.

Bill
05 Dec 04,, 02:40
"then have we regressed?"

As of the retirement of the AIM-54 last month, obviously the answer is yes. Almost the entire F-14 fleet is now rusting quietly in the desert.

You are however overlooking the fact that ACM is a team sport, and the US has BY FAR the best 'team' in the world.

From AWACS, to the fighters, to the EA-6Bs that jam the enemies radars, to the strike fighters and cruise missiles that close the enemy's airbases before the fight even starts, the USAF has the best total package.

ajaybhutani
05 Dec 04,, 03:09
They were (V)1's, how am i supposed to 'link' you to a living human being who participated in the exercise?

Did u participate in the exercises??


It doesn't matter whether you 'accept' it or not, the fact is they were (V)1's.

Any aircraft that doesn't wear the colors of the United States is not my concern, so i was not speaking to them.

Currently the buy figure for the F-22 is set at approx. 300 aircraft. For filling purely the air supremacy role, yes....that is enough.
The US is safe. Prob comes for its allies who are all dependent on american arms.

Bill
05 Dec 04,, 07:52
"Did u participate in the exercises??"

Oh yeah, there were a lot of ex-snipers flying that day... :rolleyes:

Franco Lolan
05 Dec 04,, 21:20
" the USAF has the best total package."

The NAVY's "team" is not as prepared as AF is. If it can't engage land based aircraft before they can, that's a concern.

Bill
05 Dec 04,, 21:24
The Navy's team is even better, to be honest. The EA-6Bs belong to them to begin with, they have fleet CEC fuzing all the data input of AEGIS, fighters, and E-2Cs, the F-18E/F are being equipped with next generation ATFLIR/IRST sets, and the F-18E/F have(or rather soon will have) state of the art AESA radars. The F-18E/F also has a RCS much smaller than an Eagle.

Kozzy
07 Dec 04,, 04:44
AESA radars were not used in the COPE exercises and the Eagles were outnumbered 3 to 1, plus they didn't have AWACS support. I read this on a strategypage news article and on numerous forums like tank-net.

Franco Lolan
07 Dec 04,, 05:28
super hornet f18E/F does not have fuel to stay up as long , and cannot go as far as f14. even if it can identify threat, its short range and average missile engagement range restrict it: the super hornet is not a viable f14 replacement unless equipped with a long range missile some time in the near future.

Bill
07 Dec 04,, 06:51
The F-18 can stay aloft as long as neccesary with in-flight refueling(why does everyone always overlook that?), and while it has mediocre supersonic performance, at subsonic speeds where the real fighting goes on, it's adequate. And again, because of it's lower RCS, it will be harder to spot on radar, especially with EA-6Bs providing jamming cover.

ajaybhutani
07 Dec 04,, 10:53
AESA radars were not used in the COPE exercises and the Eagles were outnumbered 3 to 1, plus they didn't have AWACS support. I read this on a strategypage news article and on numerous forums like tank-net.
neither did the indians used any(they donot have any yet and will get phalcons next year.).
About being outnumbered 3:1 it isrumoured that they got the kill rate of 1:10/9 clearly much more . also not all planes were su30. MKI were not even used by indians . There were MK's mirage2000 mig29 and even teh mig21 ( i m not sure but maybe even jaguars) And all except su30MK is good nough to face a F15. Clearly we can at least say that su30 and F15s used were comparable.
Well a news link was posted in the thread su30mkin vs F15 thread taht tells that the 19th squadron used there did have AESA's.Though again this can be debated. And so we cannot be sure about this.

MKI itself is much more advanced than the MK version used in Cope india.

Franco Lolan
07 Dec 04,, 23:29
The F-18 can stay aloft as long as neccesary with in-flight refueling(why does everyone always overlook that?), and while it has mediocre supersonic performance, at subsonic speeds where the real fighting goes on, it's adequate. And again, because of it's lower RCS, it will be harder to spot on radar, especially with EA-6Bs providing jamming cover.


"inflight refueling", yes. but shouldn't aircraft have the ability to stay aloft? What if there are no tankers available?

"mediocre supersonic performance" can't put distance between threat and fleet

"adequate" at "subsonic speeds". adequate won't cut it when going up against su27s or su30s.

"EA-6Bs" will be gone soon.

Even if it can't be spotted, it can't spot the enemy without AWACS support very well due to its weak radar.

It lacks the ability to effectively engage contacts independent of large amounts of support aircraft.

The USN needs an interceptor.

Bill
08 Dec 04,, 02:01
""inflight refueling", yes. but shouldn't aircraft have the ability to stay aloft? What if there are no tankers available?"

The F-18s carry buddy tanks. Therefore, there're always tankers available.

""mediocre supersonic performance" can't put distance between threat and fleet"

No arguing that.

""adequate" at "subsonic speeds". adequate won't cut it when going up against su27s or su30s."

That only matters WVR. An AIM-9X will out-turn anything in the sky. The days of super-agile fighters are probably over. When you can simply look at your opponent 150degrees off boresight and squeeze your trigger there's little need for a hyper agile platform.

"EA-6Bs" will be gone soon."

And replaced by EF-18s. The capability will remain.

"Even if it can't be spotted, it can't spot the enemy without AWACS support very well due to its weak radar."

Weak radar? On what? The F-18E/F? You are way mistaken bro. The Stupid Hornet's are being fitted with AESA radars as we speak. Even beyond that the F-18E/F recieves sensor data from E-2Cs and AEGIS warships.

"It lacks the ability to effectively engage contacts independent of large amounts of support aircraft."

So does everything but the F-22....your SU-30 included.

"The USN needs an interceptor."

The F-35C should get that job done nicely. Be patient.

highsea
12 Dec 04,, 08:52
neither did the indians used any(they donot have any yet and will get phalcons next year.).
About being outnumbered 3:1 it isrumoured that they got the kill rate of 1:10/9 clearly much more . also not all planes were su30. MKI were not even used by indians . There were MK's mirage2000 mig29 and even teh mig21 ( i m not sure but maybe even jaguars) And all except su30MK is good nough to face a F15. Clearly we can at least say that su30 and F15s used were comparable.
Well a news link was posted in the thread su30mkin vs F15 thread taht tells that the 19th squadron used there did have AESA's.Though again this can be debated. And so we cannot be sure about this.

MKI itself is much more advanced than the MK version used in Cope india.
This post has the details of the Cope India excersize:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showpost.php?p=56197&postcount=46

The F-15's did not have AESA, India had a simulated AWACS, the AMRAAM was restricted to short range, and the F-15's were outnumbered 3 or 4 to 1.

Keep in mind that DACT is for training pilots, not assessing platform superiority. It's a hollow argument to use Cope India to say the Suk is superior to the F-15.

ajaybhutani
20 Dec 04,, 13:49
This post has the details of the Cope India excersize:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showpost.php?p=56197&postcount=46

The F-15's did not have AESA, India had a simulated AWACS, the AMRAAM was restricted to short range, and the F-15's were outnumbered 3 or 4 to 1.

Keep in mind that DACT is for training pilots, not assessing platform superiority. It's a hollow argument to use Cope India to say the Suk is superior to the F-15.


HE HE HE HE ...

1. About AESA of F15C
Well it was 19th fighter squadron that was used . And heres a link that says 19th squadron has AESA.

http://www2.hickam.af.mil/newsarchive/2001/2001254.htm

2. India had simulated awacs.
Well i cant stop laughing.
Where did u read it .. ???or did u confuse the MKI's range with that of AWACS.
3, AmrAAM Range .
dude thats what we are trying to discuss out here about whats the range of AMRAAM. And the links we have say that its half that of R77.And yes about what lullthepull said he never gave a link . and i dont go for stuff without links.
4. F15 were surely outnumbered but by a combination of Mig21 M2000H mk's Mig27's etc and yes the kill ratio was 9:1 which tells us how much pathetic americans acted .

read again i said f15 adn su30 are comoarable and not tha one is better..

i bet u didnt read the SU30 vs F15 thread in this forum . WE have already had heated discussions on all this. Please refer to it before posting stuff like indian had awacs etc etc..

highsea
20 Dec 04,, 14:48
HE HE HE HE ...

1. About AESA of F15C
Well it was 19th fighter squadron that was used . And heres a link that says 19th squadron has AESA.

http://www2.hickam.af.mil/newsarchive/2001/2001254.htm

2. India had simulated awacs.
Well i cant stop laughing.
Where did u read it .. ???or did u confuse the MKI's range with that of AWACS.
3, AmrAAM Range .
dude thats what we are trying to discuss out here about whats the range of AMRAAM. And the links we have say that its half that of R77.And yes about what lullthepull said he never gave a link . and i dont go for stuff without links.
4. F15 were surely outnumbered but by a combination of Mig21 M2000H mk's Mig27's etc and yes the kill ratio was 9:1 which tells us how much pathetic americans acted .

read again i said f15 adn su30 are comoarable and not tha one is better..

i bet u didnt read the SU30 vs F15 thread in this forum . WE have already had heated discussions on all this. Please refer to it before posting stuff like indian had awacs etc etc..I'm not sure what your point is. No one said the 19th FS didn't have AESA equipped Eagles, just that they did not go to Cope India. India had an Antonov An-32 Cline as a simulated AWACS in the excersize.

If you don't believe it, don't believe it, what do I care. It comes from declass reports and AWST. You would have read it already if you read the thread you referred me to. Here's the post with the article copied from avleak:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showpost.php?p=43016&postcount=143

Do you want me to give you a link from outside this forum?

Anyway, if you think DACT is about assessing platform superiority, you don't understand DACT.

As to the AMRAAM range, it's classified. Anything you read on the net is speculation.

ajaybhutani
20 Dec 04,, 15:24
I'm not sure what your point is. No one said the 19th FS didn't have AESA equipped Eagles, just that they did not go to Cope India.

Read the link i posted . It says that 19th squadron has AESA. Did u even care to open it .



India had an Antonov An-32 Cline as a simulated AWACS in the excersize.
Link please??


If you don't believe it, don't believe it, what do I care. It comes from declass reports and AWST. You would have read it already if you read the thread you referred me to. Here's the post with the article copied from avleak:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showpost.php?p=43016&postcount=143

It the link u have given nowhere says that indians used simulated AWACS. After all how can they simulate an AWAC when they dont even have an AWAC rite now.




Do you want me to give you a link from outside this forum?

Well i want a link from some news serive and not some individuals.



Anyway, if you think DACT is about assessing platform superiority, you don't understand DACT.

In air theres no man without a machine. I think u donot understand taht.


As to the AMRAAM range, it's classified. Anything you read on the net is speculation.
Well then how can u say taht teh range to which it was restricted isnt the actual range. The debate here isnt wehter MK is better or F15C for we all know that MKi has a better radar and the both have never seen each other in combat. What matters is that none of the platforms is superior over the other. Whats debatable here is whats the real range of AMRAAM. For i havent seen a link stating it more than 50km or so for the versions in service while that of R77 is much more .

Injecteer
20 Dec 04,, 15:31
Anyway, if you think DACT is about assessing platform superiority, you don't understand DACT.


Kinda strange...

if there were no need in assessing the plattform, why didnt they fly on Cessnas or An2? Or they could use some Novalogic Flight Simu for the same goal, thus saving a great deal of bucks :biggrin:

I'd say, that the estimation of a hardware is always one of the point of ANY trainings, doesnt metter joint or internal, so took it place in cope india.

highsea
20 Dec 04,, 15:47
Read the link I posted . It says that 19th squadron has AESA. Did u even care to open it .

I am completely aware that the 19th FS has AESA equipped Eagles. What I am also I am also aware of, that you seem unable to accept, is that they did not take them to Cope India, because they did not want to take the support equipment, and the details were worked out long in advance of the excersize.

From the AWST article: "The reasons for the drubbing have gone largely unexplained and been misunderstood, according to those based here with the 3rd Wing who participated. Two major factors stand out: NONE OF THE SIX 3RD WING F-15CS WAS EQUIPPED WITH THE NEWEST LONG-RANGE, ACTIVE ELECTRONICALLY SCANNED ARRAY (AESA) RADARS. These Raytheon APG-63(V)2 radars were designed to find small and stealthy targets. At India's request, the U.S. agreed to mock combat at 3-to-1 odds and WITHOUT THE USE OF SIMULATED LONG-RANGE, RADAR-GUIDED AIM-120 AMRAAMS that even the odds with beyond-visual-range kills.


Link please??

Did you read the AWST article?

David A. Fulghum
4 October 2004
Aviation Week & Space Technology
50
Volume 161, Number 13
English
(c) 2004 McGraw-Hill, Inc.

Paragraph 7: Mica-armed Dassault Mirages 2000s are also stationed there. BROUGHT IN FOR THE EXERCISE WERE SUKHOI SU-30S (BUT NOT THE NEWEST SU-30 MKIS) carrying simulated AA-11s and AA-12 Adders. There also were five MiG-29 Flankers involved in a peripheral role and an Antonov An-32 Cline as a simulated AWACS.


It the link u have given nowhere says that indians used simulated AWACS. After all how can they simulate an AWAC when they dont even have an AWAC rite now.It's a simulation. They don't fire real missiles, they use ACMI pods and simulation and acquisition rounds. The Simulated AWACS can feed the data to the AC via ACMI. This data can be fed to the AWACS simulator by the range control or another AC.


Well i want a link from some news serive and not some individuals.AWST is not good enough?


In air theres no man without a machine. I think u donot understand taht.I have no idea what point you are trying to make. But DACT is about training pilots, not comparing aircraft or missiles.


Well then how can u say taht teh range to which it was restricted isnt the actual range. The debate here isnt wehter MK is better or F15C for we all know that MKi has a better radar and the both have never seen each other in combat. What matters is that none of the platforms is superior over the other. Whats debatable here is whats the real range of AMRAAM. For i havent seen a link stating it more than 50km or so for the versions in service while that of R77 is much more .

I did not make any statements about the range, only that it is classified. In fact, it's a good possibility that the two AF's simply chose to use published data to keep sensitive information secret. You are welcome to speculate on this to your hearts content.

Anyway, I'm done with this silly discussion.

Bill
20 Dec 04,, 19:56
Highsea, now you're where i got last week.

There's little point in arguing with children that can't read...