Training meeting

[Wiseman]

At a recent ROTC training meeting, a Cadet suggested that the lower classmen be exposed to the recently published Counterinsurgency manual. One cadre member shut that idea down with the comment " it is not worth the time, better to learn about basic leadership ". I personally thought that the comment was ****ed up. Am I wrong or right?

[glyn]

At a recent ROTC training meeting, a Cadet suggested that the lower classmen be exposed to the recently published Counterinsurgency manual. One cadre member shut that idea down with the comment " it is not worth the time, better to learn about basic leadership ". I personally thought that the comment was ****ed up. Am I wrong or right?

Not having read the manual, I cannot comment, but other than learning the basic skills required of soldiers the most important art to try to master is that of leadership. It cannot be practiced enough, and you will continually learn new lessons and hopefully learn from your mistakes - for you surely will make them. Everyone else who has been through the mill certainly did!

[Shek]

At a recent ROTC training meeting, a Cadet suggested that the lower classmen be exposed to the recently published Counterinsurgency manual. One cadre member shut that idea down with the comment " it is not worth the time, better to learn about basic leadership ". I personally thought that the comment was ****ed up. Am I wrong or right?

Wiseman,

Reading the COIN manual is a great idea - without the knowledge of the strategic imperatives of tactics at the company grade level in a COIN environment, you are bound to fail. Many of the best practices in a COIN environment are counterintuitive for an army that has been focused on the "big one" for all of its post-World War II history.

On the other hand, leadership is best learned by leading and following, not reading books or manual.

That being said, keep in mind that there are specific BOLC I tasks that you are required to complete and there are specific skills that you will need to learn/train so that your unit can be successful at LDAC.

Lastly, don't be surprised if this thread gets moved over to probably the Field Mess forum, which is probably a better spot for it.

[Wiseman]

Sir,

When the cadre member said better leadership, he was just talking about the basic battle drills such a 1A and he believes that knowing those is enough of a base for future learning. I should've explained this before. Is he wrong on that part or is he still right?

[dave lukins]

Wiseman ,if the soldier in question truly believes that IA and basic battle skills as a Start Point to his/her future learning, which suggest he/she intend to carry on learning ,then he/she cannot be wrong

[TopHatter]

Lastly, don't be surprised if this thread gets moved over to probably the Field Mess forum, which is probably a better spot for it.

Excellent idea, although I hope the Colonel doesn't mind my barging in through the front door of his field mess

[Shek]

Sir,

When the cadre member said better leadership, he was just talking about the basic battle drills such a 1A and he believes that knowing those is enough of a base for future learning. I should've explained this before. Is he wrong on that part or is he still right?

If trained and executed correctly, a battle drill requires zero leadership - it is a Pavlovian response to stimuli.

That being said, the training of a battle drill does require leadership, and it will be a necessary skill set for LDAC. So, there is some value to it.

I don't know enough about where your unit's training status is and what the events are for your semester, nor whether your MS classes will cover COIN (probably not), so I can't give a definitive answer based on my experience as to whether focusing on 1A is the right thing or not. Covering basics is usually never a bad idea, blocking and tackling if you will. I will state that the attitude of relegating COIN to an unnecessary topic is wrong, provided that his response was a general attitude and not solely a response to it in terms of the particular training event in question.

However, there is an opportunity to learn the art of leadership here.

Make this recommendation. Not sure how much you do PT, but it is possible to spend the last 10 minutes of PT doing a battle drills on an open field/area. It provides a great opportunity to do the drill and people aren't worried about getting sweaty/dirty because there already are going to have to take a shower. This will build the repetitive drill part on easy terrain, and you'll get some PT to boot out of it doing the IMT. You can then transition the drill during a STX or FTX onto some real terrain where it's not so easy to execute.

Send me a PM with your email and I can send you something that will provide some good ideas on how to train.

[Officer of Engineers]

Wiseman,

There is no right or wrong answer. I certainly paid very little attention to insurgency, preparing instead for WWIII. The point I will raise, however, is just how good is your juniors? If they're already snow under, then introducing insurgency is a bad idea. If they're bored out of their skulls, then you have to challenge them.

It all boils down to the individual.

[Draconion]

There is no right or wrong answer. I certainly paid very little attention to insurgency, preparing instead for WWIII.

Canada does not have any insurgency..does it? Hell...whats the population of Canada? A puny 200million?(or even lesser?)

[TopHatter]

Hell...whats the population of Canada? A puny 200million?(or even lesser?)

32 million, compared to 28 million in Iraq.

Your estimate of 200 million would put it between the 4th and 5th most populous countries in the world.

[Draconion]

32 million, compared to 28 million in Iraq.

Your estimate of 200 million would put it between the 4th and 5th most populous countries in the world.

That less?
Thats less than most states of India!!

[glyn]

That less?
Thats less than most states of India!!

Might be why Canada (firmly in the 1st World) is more advanced than the vastly more populated Indian states.

[Ray]

Since I am not conversant with your training continuum and therefore would comment in general terms.

Basic drills are essential for a sub unit to function as a whole and in an efficient manner. Good drills and thereby efficient application of combat power means less casualties.

Less casualties means less new members joining the sub unit to replace those wounded or killed. Therefore, it also means high morale. Less casualties also means that the sub unit can apply its combat power without any loose ends (the new chap) and hence remains efficiently effective.

Therefore, basic drills are most important.

However, to apply the combat power as a sub unit/ unit/ formation and maximise on the basic drills/procedures, one requires someone who can point the organisation in the correct and efficient direction. That requires leadership.

However, one cannot start reading about COIN and comprehending the nuances of application without understanding leadership and its very important role in COIN.

Ideally, one should concentrate on drill and then when the drills are somewhat up to the standard, then leadership could be taken up.

[Ray]

Population, no doubt an important factor, alone does not make it ideal for counter insurgency. The density of that population is important since it is essential that the insurgent has areas where the insurgent can melt into without detection.

The insurgent requires a resource base also. And for that he requires the assistance of the population. In case the density of population is high, his obtaining the same without raising suspicion is much easier, as those who have read and those who have operated in COIN will know.

Canada, apart from the urban areas, does not have a high density in population. Therefore, insurgency can only breed in urban areas and that is not a very ideal task for an insurgent, whose mother organisation would like the whole country to burn.

For an insurgency to start, there must be some burning issue. Except for the question of Quebec, there is hardly any reason for insurgency and, even that has been very wisely handled by the Canadian govt and the people.

Canada basically has also been blessed since it was one religion country, even though of the same religion, there were two sect broadly.

Canada is doing well because she was never a Colony as such and hence her resources were utilised well towards her well being. This was immensely helped by the fact that the population was very low and hence the economic gains could be well spread amongst the population. It must also be remembered that other colonies of the British Empire had greater resources that could be milked for the Mother Country and hence Canada was spared the ripping of her resources to a great extent.

Therefore, given the situation that Canada was in and is in now, it would have been very surprising if she did not do so well. This is quite an elementary deduction actually.

With diverse population now entering Canada, the problems are surfacing.

[SnowLeopard]

IMHO,I would say that the COIN, which I am unfamilar with, is the advanced and "fun" stuff but one has to learn first the basics, such as control of emotions, to really appreciate things.

IE, as military police, I often commented that tactical, drills, searches, and such, was more fun than being in the office. But one needs the basics to draw on to support themselves in other affairs.

Once had a situation where a servicewoman decided she wasn't going to obey orders any more. While searching her room to ensure there wasn't anything she could harm herself/others with, there were fisticuffs and insults. Later on while she was being examined by an O-6 psychiatrist to see if she was fit to go to the regional brig, the XO "complemented" both my police officers and I about our ability not to lash out on such a person for he might have. I commented in a Spock like manner that he would find his training as a plebe very useful in such a situation. The manner which I addressed him was perhaps not proper, I had "fallen" into a state where my emotions had shut down (and my ability to take hits without plunging into rage increased), but the basic statement was sound.

One learns not to react to insult when one has been lined up against a wall while an upperclassman is in their face, yelling.

That's the basic, that's what one needs to learn first. The "toys" come later.
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(After discovering that all the horrors they have been facing are caused by thoughts. "Fall in! Stand at attention! Clear your mind! Focus only on what I am saying!"--Kirk, (w,stte), ST:TOS "Shoreleave")