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lulldapull
04 Nov 04,, 20:25
36 Ways the US Is Losing the War on Terror

by Jon Basil Utley
Three years and half a trillion dollars later America is losing the war on terrorism. The 9/11 Commission has warned that more and worse acts of terrorism are to be expected. Bin Laden's planning always assumed that we, in reacting to him, would help him carry out his objectives. Well, we did. In his dreams he could not have imagined the damage done to America. So how are we losing the war?

1) Of course, turning most of the world against us is bin Laden's greatest achievement. From Africa to Latin America, from Europe to Asia, the swift collapse of confidence in America's moral leadership, and hatred for our government, is unparalleled in history. According to the July 26 issue of Time, "Bush and America are so unpopular overseas, polls show, that many foreign leaders can't agree to anything the president asks for without taking a hit in their own ratings." See also America Alone by Jonathan Clarke and Stefan Halper.

2) Al-Qaeda has now metastasized into new semi-autonomous groups in many nations, all motivated by hate for the U.S. and any nation or government that helps it. America's relations with the Muslim world, nearly a quarter of the planet's population, are subject to new hatred and fear as never before.

3) A threatening breakdown in globalization is occurring. The State Department has urged American civilians to flee from Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and even the Philippines, nations where Americans have lived for generations. The long-term consequences mean loss of business contacts and investments with a chain reaction all over the world. As Fortune Magazine warned in 2001, "A Fortress America mentality in security matters could spill into economic ones ... a short hop from nationalism to protectionism ... all sorts of parochial interests in the U.S. are much more likely to get the upper hand. The effect on the economy will result in real declines in American living standards." There are growing threats to American interests in any nation with substantial Muslim populations, even now in the Far East.

4) America's government is slowly being bankrupted President Bush's cave-in on domestic spending to gain support for foreign wars follows his father's footsteps. Bush Sr. also caved in to Democratic demands for taxes and spending in return for their support for war against Iraq in 1990. Niall Ferguson, author of Empire, argued in Newsweek that the American Empire was rare in being so dependent upon foreigners lending it money, and that the coming Social Security/Medicare financial crisis alone would eventually force America to pull back from most of its foreign ventures.

5) Al-Qaeda's strength is growing in oil vital Saudi Arabia. Even Turkey, since 1945 America's great ally and a secular nation, has cooled its relations with America. Pro-American Muslim regimes in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan are more at risk of being overthrown.

6) America's power is declining in Asia because of its preoccupation with the Muslim world and deficits, making the U.S. less competitive. Washington, focused on war, is unable to reform health care expenses, strengthen basic education or deal with other structural problems.

7) Washington's broad brush in declaring all terrorist organizations as enemies (except for Irish terrorists), even if they never targeted America, is causing them all to become real enemies. The Washington Post has reported that Hezbollah and al-Qaeda are now training together for the first time. As Zbigniew Brzezinski wrote in The American Prospect in August, America simply does not have the resources to "become a protagonist in every part of the world in which terrorism is directed against others." As he put it, Cheney is "senseless to claim that terrorists hate all nations and all peoples."

8) Eliminating Saddam was a victory for bin Laden, who considered Ba'athist secularism as a competitor. He hated the social permissiveness of Iraq, its modernity, its general equality for women, allowing music, etc.

9) The Iraq war caused Washington to neglect efforts to isolate, protect and destroy fissionable materials to keep them away from terrorists.

10) Plans for "usable" nukes, approved because of 9/11, undermine non-proliferation agreements, curtail collaboration with Russia, and make nuclear war permissible, plausible, and more possible. Proliferation makes more nuke material available for possible theft by terrorists. Russian and U.S. nukes are still close to hair trigger alert and subject to "mistakes." Bin Laden would gladly try to cause war between Russia and the U.S. or trade Arab cities for blowing up New York or Washington. He doesn't like cities anyway.

11) America faces a growing risk of non-Arab Muslims taking up suicidal terrorism against American interests here and overseas. The English "sneaker bomber" was not an Arab, so ethnic profiling didn't help catch him.

12) Our prisons are full of bitter young converts. The alleged "Dirty Bomber" Jose Padilla, a Hispanic-American, was such a prison convert.

13) Afghanistan is a becoming a quagmire. Our "victory" is looking ever more tenuous. Al-Qaeda is regrouping, Pakistan is becoming less secure, 20,000 U.S. soldiers are there and war looks interminable.

14) The American military is stretched thin. It is designed for conquest, not occupation. It is designed to fight nations, not guerrillas and terrorists. See Rumsfeld memo.

15) Bin Laden is winning the propaganda war in the world. Washington can spend billions on weapons that are irrelevant to the war on terrorism, but has little constituency for explaining America to the outside world. The 9/11 Commission also urged Washington to reexamine its Middle East policies (see page 376), but there is no sign of either party doing that.

15) America is being equated with Israel. Nothing inflames Muslims even more against America than news reports that Israelis have been training American soldiers in suppression and torture techniques. They confirm accusations that the U.S. And Israel are in joint league against the Muslim world exactly what Bin Laden claims. Such reports are rife on Arab TV, juxtaposing American soldiers bombing or raiding Iraqi homes with Israelis doing the same to Palestinians. America simply can't get away with using Israeli techniques; they further inflame the world against Washington.

16) American religious fundamentalists are now playing a key role in foreign policy. Their support for Israeli settlers and other hardliners works to cut off U.S. communication with Muslims a main bin Laden objective. Many even want chaos in the Middle East to help fulfill their version of biblical prophecy. See The Armageddon Lobby.

17) American intelligence is discredited for the foreseeable future. As Arnaud de Borchgrave wrote, "The war on Iraq and ongoing occupation by coalition forces has dealt body blows to the world's two most important intelligence services the CIA and MI6."

18) "The souring of America on intervention abroad has major strategic implications for the United States and for the world. Intelligence on weapons of mass destruction and the intentions of dictators or terrorist gangs that seem to possess them are unlikely to be sufficiently clear to meet the standards for action demanded by the post-facto doubts and recriminations on Iraq. Intelligence analysis will become even more cautious and ambiguously stated to policymakers. Vulnerability to surprise attack could grow again," columnist Jim Hoagland.

19) The invasion and incompetent occupation of Iraq (including the humiliation and torture of captives) has terribly discredited America far beyond Iraq's borders.

20) Al-Qaeda and Ariel Sharon are both trying to promote civil war and chaos in Iraq for their own ends. Washington's threats against Syria and Iran give both an incentive to help keep U.S. troops tied down in Iraq.

21) Religious extremism is sweeping Iraq and the Muslim world even among traditionally secular Sunnis.

22) Sunnis and Shi'ites are now cooperating against America; U.S. intelligence used to think that mutual animosities would prevent them from working together.

24) The damage to holy Shi'ite shrines well serves propaganda that America is sacrilegious and anti-Muslim. Even if the actual damage is done by Muslim guerrillas themselves, America gets the blame and more hatred.

25) Foreign students in American universities have dropped by the hundreds of thousands, thus weakening future pro-American influence abroad. Foreigners also pay full tuition and provide most of the students for Ph.D. programs in the hard sciences. Many have led American technological discoveries as inventors and entrepreneurs. New registrations of foreign Muslim students have almost disappeared, thus further separating America from the Muslim world.

26) Foreign tourism is way down because of difficulties and delays in getting visas.

27) Small charities have stopped giving overseas because of new "anti-terror" government regulations. Such "people to people" programs were among the strongest pro-American building institutions in the Third World.

28) Disputes with Europe have fractured NATO. No longer will it do Washington's bidding.

29) Russian good will and trust toward America has dropped precipitously. Russians are nervous about the new American air bases in Central Asia close to their border. Mutual missile reduction is on ice. Russia is again becoming a major weapons exporter to the Third World. Discredited U.S. foreign policies help undermine pro-American democracy forces inside Russia.

30) Russia and China have a tacit alliance in high-tech weaponry. China is rushing to build more submarines, intercontinental missiles and air defenses against U.S. air attack capabilities. They haven't forgotten that the neoconservatives first threatened China before 9/11.

31) American war ships are able to visit fewer foreign ports, thus effecting recruitment and retention of sailors. They now have "steel beach parties" aboard ship for fear of danger to sailors if they go ashore.

32) Reflecting all these developments, the U.S. stock market is showing less confidence in the future. Value Line, usually pretty accurate in long-term forecasting, expects little price increase for the next four years. Columnist Jim Glassman has written that investors now see Asia replacing America for foreign investors.

33) Scores of billions of Arab money have been withdrawn from American banks. Owners fear that at any moment they could be accused of funding a group that supported a group that supported "terrorism" (even if only against Israeli settlers taking their land) and have all their funds confiscated. These withdrawals are also thought to be a reason for the dollar's decline in value.

34) Washington is doing nothing to diffuse the threat by facing up to the real reasons American was attacked. This is helping bin Laden recruit new money and resources.

35) We have lost freedoms under the PATRIOT Act and endless time and money from more and more security costs, e.g., government guards who will retire after 20 years with pensions and full medical care. With more terrorist attacks, we may eventually look back on the Nineties as the "Golden Age" of American freedom and prosperity.

36) America's loss of "soft power" is the most significant effect of these failed policies. Its costs will be with us for a long time; indeed, America may never recover its image in much of the world as the shining city on the hill. As Anatol Lieven of the Carnegie Institute told a Cato Institute audience, "America, which benefits most from the rule of law in the world, has gone about destroying it."


Jon Basil Utley is the Robert A. Taft Fellow at the Ludwig von Mises Institute. A former correspondent for Knight/Ridder in South America, Utley has written for the Harvard Business Review on foreign nationalism and Insight Magazine on preparation for terrorist threats

lulldapull
04 Nov 04,, 21:00
i thought the reason number 16...The 'armegeddon lobby' was the best one ! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

you know if you come to think of it, its not that far fetched!! we have our pat-Robertsons/ Earnst Angely's and Billy Graham's among many many other biblical armegeddonists sending hundreds of thousands of missionaries armed with arabic bibles inside Iraq and Afghanistan! :biggrin:

now a personal cool touch in a scenario like this would be Out of the usual ding dong session between them semites, out pops their beardo Messiah! :biggrin: :biggrin: god-damn 2 cent prophecy fullfiled! :biggrin:

Heck that would make al lthem Christian fundos, jews and their A-raanb cousins kneel down in apostation before another Osama look alike! :biggrin: :biggrin:

Now that i wouldn't mind seeing! God-damn wash our ands off of all these fundo goons! :biggrin:

tarek
04 Nov 04,, 21:02
"Analysis by Assertion" -- half truths and spin would serve the cause Mr. Utley seeks to serve. Leaders of countries around the world do not make decisons based on whether or not they like a sitting American president or not, they do make decisons they judge that serve their interests.

Imagining osama and his Al-Qaida as ten feet tall similarky serves no constructive purpose, neither does the granting away of Muslims of the world to Osama serve the cause of justice and indeed of globalization.

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have been under threat for more than a decade, it is only now, with the prodding and assistance of the Us that these two countries leadership have begun to understand the danger to their own continued existence, their neglect and lack of will, has served.

America is being equated with Israel he claims - by whom??? The sam peope who were equating it with Israel yesterdayad who's intellectual framework does not allow for anything other than this equation.

The fact is there is a lot of work to be done, but lets not get carried away, doom and gloom gongers will bring us no succor.

lulldapull
04 Nov 04,, 21:11
"Analysis by Assertion" -- half truths and spin would serve the cause Mr. Utley seeks to serve. Leaders of countries around the world do not make decisons based on whether or not they like a sitting American president or not, they do make decisons they judge that serve their interests.

Imagining osama and his Al-Qaida as ten feet tall similarky serves no constructive purpose, neither does the granting away of Muslims of the world to Osama serve the cause of justice and indeed of globalization.

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have been under threat for more than a decade, it is only now, with the prodding and assistance of the Us that these two countries leadership have begun to understand the danger to their own continued existence, their neglect and lack of will, has served.

America is being equated with Israel he claims - by whom??? The sam peope who were equating it with Israel yesterdayad who's intellectual framework does not allow for anything other than this equation.

The fact is there is a lot of work to be done, but lets not get carried away, doom and gloom gongers will bring us no succor.

Yah he's slightly exaggerating the "dangers", but in essence the backward and illiterate mouzlum world doesn't know that! They still believe that Osama is their saviour! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: Sent to them by their Arabian Allah! :biggrin:

So in that context you gotto view this article!, just like over here we have Pat Robertson getting a serious hard-on every time he hears the word "Middle East"! :)

Try convincing the neocon/ right Wing fundo of this forum of dropping his agenda is the same as asking for instance our old buddy 'terror boy" Ameer Kiani to accept jesus as his cheaper alternative saviour! :biggrin: :biggrin:

Thats the reality yaar Sino! Me and you know better;

but fundo dont know! :)

tarek
04 Nov 04,, 22:03
Yaar, you know the problem I have with these kinds of pieces is that they do not allow you to take anything the author has to say as seriously as perhaps one should.

His pointing out the draining of $$ from US banks and fromthe US in general was the strongest item in his list, but he started the list out in such obviously shallow manner, that refuting him was much to easy.

Yaara, backward and illiteraste the mazlooms may be but a 2 x 4 between the eyes can help anybody realize their best interests. Unfortunately for us mazlooms, if we get anything less, we see it as a sign of weakness and an opportunity to inflict more pain -- this then, is exactly the way we "learn" -- "cruel to be kind, in the right measure, means that I luv you, baby"
Honestly, yaar, that's my read - I know it's sad - but hey, it is what it is.

lulldapull
04 Nov 04,, 22:16
Yaar, you know the problem I have with these kinds of pieces is that they do not allow you to take anything the author has to say as seriously as perhaps one should.

His pointing out the draining of $$ from US banks and fromthe US in general was the strongest item in his list, but he started the list out in such obviously shallow manner, that refuting him was much to easy.

Yaara, backward and illiteraste the mazlooms may be but a 2 x 4 between the eyes can help anybody realize their best interests. Unfortunately for us mazlooms, if we get anything less, we see it as a sign of weakness and an opportunity to inflict more pain -- this then, is exactly the way we "learn" -- "cruel to be kind, in the right measure, means that I luv you, baby"
Honestly, yaar, that's my read - I know it's sad - but hey, it is what it is.


Hey even I was not aware of the "Gulf- A-raanb" billions that have been removed from our banks! :frown: :frown:

See my take on this besides the beef with Neocons is that in their blind quest for revenge against Osama, they have involved us in global war against Mouzlums, which in all honesty is not winnable! You know that and I know that! :) Read Utley's point number 7! As matter of fact somebody from the Brookings Institute will be on Charlie Rose tonight and will talk about the growing nexus between Al-qaeda and Hezbollah!

there is a right way to fight terror, and a wrong way! The Neocons have chosen the worst possible way! the problem is that tisis not just your backyard invasion of panama or Granada! This is a very real war, and we are no longer that country safely perched up on the hill, immune from world events, hunger/ poverty/ violence/ terrorism and blahblah....

We should hold this administration accountable for its policy blunders, and in the time when we need the whole worlds support, we ain't gettin none! :)

I mean if you har policy pundiits and international guru's talk about this administrations future, they are not holding back anything! What will really happen now is that the divide between europe and America will deepen! As the French and German politicians have put it rightfully so! As one of them put it:

When george Bush got elected in 2000 after a fraudulent and 'hokey' election, we thought of it as an abberration of sorts, but now after this election it appears that we will go our separate ways!

This is not something to joke about! This is a direct reality check that western Europe will not get involved in policing Iraq, or any future iraq's! :) unkal Sam has to pull its own dead weight and do some reflecting on what they did wrong......

tarek
05 Nov 04,, 14:38
"7) Washington's broad brush in declaring all terrorist organizations as enemies (except for Irish terrorists), even if they never targeted America, is causing them all to become real enemies. The Washington Post has reported that Hezbollah and al-Qaeda are now training together for the first time. As Zbigniew Brzezinski wrote in The American Prospect in August, America simply does not have the resources to "become a protagonist in every part of the world in which terrorism is directed against others." As he put it, Cheney is "senseless to claim that terrorists hate all nations and all peoples."


Lull

Check ou the bold print -- Thios point requires carefully reading. Brzezinski is pointing out the fact that US has to get more of the real targets (Mazloums) to do their own fighting to protect themselves.

As for Al-Qaida and Hebzollah or Islamic Jihad or Laskar eTaiba or Laskar e Jganvi or any other of these movements training together, I'm suprised that this nuz to anybody - the difference between these groups is what now?? Difference without distinction??

lulldapull
05 Nov 04,, 14:50
"7) Washington's broad brush in declaring all terrorist organizations as enemies (except for Irish terrorists), even if they never targeted America, is causing them all to become real enemies. The Washington Post has reported that Hezbollah and al-Qaeda are now training together for the first time. As Zbigniew Brzezinski wrote in The American Prospect in August, America simply does not have the resources to "become a protagonist in every part of the world in which terrorism is directed against others." As he put it, Cheney is "senseless to claim that terrorists hate all nations and all peoples."


Lull

Check ou the bold print -- Thios point requires carefully reading. Brzezinski is pointing out the fact that US has to get more of the real targets (Mazloums) to do their own fighting to protect themselves.

As for Al-Qaida and Hebzollah or Islamic Jihad or Laskar eTaiba or Laskar e Jganvi or any other of these movements training together, I'm suprised that this nuz to anybody - the difference between these groups is what now?? Difference without distinction??


See this is exactly what I was talking about! We don't have the resources, nor the Will to go and play GlobalCop anymore!

The economy will not allow that! Besides as we say there is no question about it! its not doable period! :)

You have to remember that this is Osama's greatest attribute. He has by virtue of exploiting the religious/ fundo/ jihaad card embroiled us in a global struggle!

He's not as dumb as he seems! And as 'Anonymous' in his book "Imperial Hubris" has described him, as a remarkable figure.

yeah the orders to these musharrafs and mubaraks and fahd's are on the wall, but are the lackeys actually doing the dirty???? :biggrin: :biggrin: From what I know off, In waziristan the insurgency is out of control! Just day before yesterday we lost 10 soldiers to a remotel detonated mine!! :) See now you can understand the reluctance on the 'lackeys' part in doing someone else's bidding. This was the reason why we weren't doing it for so many years. :) The situationin Iraq or afghanistan is a no brainer! Both those regimes of Illawi/ Karzai, are on life support! As soon as we'll withdraw, they'l collapse!

Now also keep in mind that once the money dries up in washington, and the lackeys don't see any economic incentive for doing their biding, they will refuse to cooperate! :)

tarek
05 Nov 04,, 19:28
Reality check - Osama may well be a "remarkable figure" and hsi greatest success may well be Jihad on the US, but I think we should also note that one should be careful about one wishes for, one may get it - and here I think Osama and company have cause to regret what they wished for.

See, this election may not have presented Bush with a tremendous majority and while no one is claiming that the elctorate was happy to involved in a war, BUT, the electorate has signalled that they want US to prevail, osama's goose is cooked.

Now as for your characterization of those who cooperate in the war against terror as "lackeys" -- come on now, this is uncalled for, it plays into the hands of those who think the entire world is a result of some giant conspiracy, with Uncle Sam, the CIA, Freemasons and the like pulling the strings - it is unreality and adds a needless quotient of incrediblity ot the conversation. You mention Musharraf and Mubarak as "lackeys", you will recall the same US govt had issued a call to the Pakistani armed forces to not initiate a coup against Nawaz, if they were "lackeys" why wasn't this call heeded? fact is that each country has it's own unique power interests and power plays and players - it serves no constructive purpose to inject these inflamatory and entirely unreal characterizations in the conversation (OK, OK, so I like Musharraf) -- And are Saudis lackeys when they help oil prices to riseot record levels and to record lows?? No, we must keep our persepective free from these emotional impulses.

As for the idea that the war on terror is bancrupting the US. simply not true - the shape of the economy is not independent of events, after all does the US really want oil at US 49??? And yes, with out a doubt the blow to integrity and trust of the currency has been severe but to say it is a knowk out punch, well, it's entirely premature.

$$ drying up?? Again, you are missing the point, lets deal with a particular, Pakistan - Pakistan do not so much want the aid as much as they want access to US markets for what they produce - US congress has authorized US 3 bilion over 5 years if I understand correctly, whereas market access will provide near double that amount in a single year -- Anyway, the whole notion that $$ will dry up is nonsensical, so long as there is innovation, ink and paper, we can be assured that $$ will not dry up and so long as the US can send a message out there to any who would or think of doing harm of the consequences, the trust in the currency will be resurrgent.

Really I don't want to come across as overly optimistic or someone who does not not to be conscious of valid criticism, it's just that these points will not cut the mustard - Eu has invited Allawy to their summit meeting and have querried him as to how they can help - now, even the EU understands which side their bread is buttered, and it's not if confrontation with the US is in the cards. It will be the same with others, once they come to realize the meaning of the reelection of Bush, their choice will be what it has been, to make their peace or else, with us or against us -- This message may sound arrogant, but it's clear and resolute.

Ray
05 Nov 04,, 19:57
From what I understand, it appears that the 'educated' voted for Kerry and the 'hicks', hillybillies and the born again Christians and evangelists for Bush.

I am not a Moslem, nor a Hindu or of any organised religion (though never a Commie) and so I could be taken as 'neutral'.

If the Bible thumpers which is Lull's favorite term are the big dads, then it appears that the second Crusade is on.

What I dread is the Chinese proverb coming home to roost - when BIG fish fight, small FISH eaten!

Julie
05 Nov 04,, 20:05
From what I understand, it appears that the 'educated' voted for Kerry and the 'hicks', hillybillies and the born again Christians and evangelists for Bush.

If that's true, then I'm one of the 39% of the educated Georgia hicks who voted for Kerry. :biggrin:

lulldapull
05 Nov 04,, 20:18
Reality check - Osama may well be a "remarkable figure" and hsi greatest success may well be Jihad on the US, but I think we should also note that one should be careful about one wishes for, one may get it - and here I think Osama and company have cause to regret what they wished for.

See, this election may not have presented Bush with a tremendous majority and while no one is claiming that the elctorate was happy to involved in a war, BUT, the electorate has signalled that they want US to prevail, osama's goose is cooked.

Now as for your characterization of those who cooperate in the war against terror as "lackeys" -- come on now, this is uncalled for, it plays into the hands of those who think the entire world is a result of some giant conspiracy, with Uncle Sam, the CIA, Freemasons and the like pulling the strings - it is unreality and adds a needless quotient of incrediblity ot the conversation. You mention Musharraf and Mubarak as "lackeys", you will recall the same US govt had issued a call to the Pakistani armed forces to not initiate a coup against Nawaz, if they were "lackeys" why wasn't this call heeded? fact is that each country has it's own unique power interests and power plays and players - it serves no constructive purpose to inject these inflamatory and entirely unreal characterizations in the conversation (OK, OK, so I like Musharraf) -- And are Saudis lackeys when they help oil prices to riseot record levels and to record lows?? No, we must keep our persepective free from these emotional impulses.

As for the idea that the war on terror is bancrupting the US. simply not true - the shape of the economy is not independent of events, after all does the US really want oil at US 49??? And yes, with out a doubt the blow to integrity and trust of the currency has been severe but to say it is a knowk out punch, well, it's entirely premature.

$$ drying up?? Again, you are missing the point, lets deal with a particular, Pakistan - Pakistan do not so much want the aid as much as they want access to US markets for what they produce - US congress has authorized US 3 bilion over 5 years if I understand correctly, whereas market access will provide near double that amount in a single year -- Anyway, the whole notion that $$ will dry up is nonsensical, so long as there is innovation, ink and paper, we can be assured that $$ will not dry up and so long as the US can send a message out there to any who would or think of doing harm of the consequences, the trust in the currency will be resurrgent.

Really I don't want to come across as overly optimistic or someone who does not not to be conscious of valid criticism, it's just that these points will not cut the mustard - Eu has invited Allawy to their summit meeting and have querried him as to how they can help - now, even the EU understands which side their bread is buttered, and it's not if confrontation with the US is in the cards. It will be the same with others, once they come to realize the meaning of the reelection of Bush, their choice will be what it has been, to make their peace or else, with us or against us -- This message may sound arrogant, but it's clear and resolute.


Yaar Tarek the reality is that post 9-11 yeah Bush sounded resolute, and then the spectacular military successes in hungry andnaked Afghanistan and sanctions hit, defeated Iraq! Big-deal!

Now 3 years later we have to contend ourselves with a full fledged rebellion in iraq! and a resurgent taliban/and/ or its splinter factions. :)

So you gooto ask yourself the question...... How long can this 1 billion per week go on? :)

that is the question..... And if we are to learn from the fate of these 2 puppet governments on life support, the upcoming Neocon adventures in iran or N.Korea hold absolutely zero promise. The other factto consider is that both the N.koreans and the Irani's will put up a fight. Iran in particular is a fairly large country. Policing it will require a lot of financial committment ( Something which Unkal Sam has in short supply these days ). And with the region rapidly descending in fundo chaos, it seems highly unlikely that the U.S. will march into Tehran. :) besides the king Fundo ( Ali Khameinei) has told Bush that he better be carefull about who he atatcks next, as 70% of Iraq's population are Khooi Shia and revere the Holy beardo Ali Sistani, who is actually a Baloch Akhund!! :) So Bush knows quite well that provoking the mull's in Tehran will start trouble for the beleagured U.S. military in iraq on a much larger scale! :) the Iraqi Shia's will over night turn into the shia versions of their 'phaluuja' cousins! :biggrin: :biggrin:

And a good indicator of this is the open flaunting by Tehran recently of the threats the both the EU and the U.S. have directed against the mulla regime! Looks like they are fairly confident that an attack wont materialise.

And the other one N. Korea, they openly are a Chinese proxy, just as pakistan is. So the queston of attacking N.Korea is an absurd after thought of 9-11! It simply wont materialise.

Now once again this is not a gloomy/ pesimistic outlook! This judging from the curret developments is a very realistic outlook on the future of the "Axis of Evil"! :) Perhaps all the neocons can contend themselves with is threats towards those 2 countries, in the meanwhile Osama and his band of 40 camel jockeys increase their membership 10 fold capitalising on wahabbi misgivings and gripes :)

See the problem for Mr. Bush is this Al-qaeda Medusa, that has an uncanny ability to regenerate itself, even after a few lower level snakes have been killed! As Mr. Anonymous claims in his book, that its only the lower 'Field' Lieutenants that have been (decapitated)! Zawahiri/ OBL and their new and much more fierce ally Zarqaawi with his band of 40 thieves recently allied himself with this Medusa all on his own. As a matter of fact he calls him his leader! :biggrin: :biggrin:

So Mr Bush as he has claimed on many an occasion himself that you cannot defeat terror, might actually come back to haunt him. And remeber yara if you kick out Waziristan or Falluja or Paktia/ Paktika of these guys, they'll set up shop elsewhere. The guy is a nomad in the full traditions of his holy prophet! :)

lulldapull
05 Nov 04,, 20:21
From what I understand, it appears that the 'educated' voted for Kerry and the 'hicks', hillybillies and the born again Christians and evangelists for Bush.

I am not a Moslem, nor a Hindu or of any organised religion (though never a Commie) and so I could be taken as 'neutral'.

If the Bible thumpers which is Lull's favorite term are the big dads, then it appears that the second Crusade is on.

What I dread is the Chinese proverb coming home to roost - when BIG fish fight, small FISH eaten!


oh bhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :biggrin: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :biggrin: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :biggrin: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :biggrin: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :biggrin: aaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Dude your gonna have to face Donnie boy/ Confed/ and Smilling Kiddo's wrath! :biggrin: :biggrin:

OHMFG! That was hilarious Ray! :biggrin: :biggrin:

Your'e catchin on dude! :biggrin:

tarek
05 Nov 04,, 20:22
"I am not a Moslem, nor a Hindu or of any organised religion (though never a Commie) and so I could be taken as 'neutral'"

"neutral" - that's rich - since when can one have a point of view and opinon and be "neutral? :)

Any way Neutrality in this issue is a non-starter - Crusade against terror and Jihad against poverty, illiteracy and ignorance - good combination as far as I'm concerned.

Ray
05 Nov 04,, 20:35
I will elaborate. It is one religion vs another.

Frim what I have read in the media about 3 Gs - Gay God and gsomething else and its elaboration. Then it appears that the Born Agains and the evangelists havve won.

If that be true, then is Osama and his ideas wrong? Though it means I am dead.

Just the academic part of it.

Donnie
05 Nov 04,, 21:20
From what I understand, it appears that the 'educated' voted for Kerry and the 'hicks', hillybillies and the born again Christians and evangelists for Bush.

actualy ray most of america is moderate, they fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, successfull democrats like clinton where able to compramise just slighly enough to pull from the middle, its the key to liberal leadership, if democrats keep thier tone down they get elected. calling them hicks and hillybillies are what makes middle america look at the left as elitist, and since there is no strong middle candidate they have to shift to the right. strong moderate democrats are what most americans want as thier president.

tarek
05 Nov 04,, 21:31
"It is one religion vs another"

Certainly that's the spin some want to leave us with, but really, it won't wash - How would one explain Clinton if this particular spin were to be examined carefully ??

Fact of the matter is tha Osama has little to do with religion, any religion, except to present his nihilism in a religious framework -- Osama claims, in his latest video that he did 9/11 as revenge for the invasion of lebanon, I think he's a quick study of kerry, - that's right, Osama's flip floper :)

lulldapull
05 Nov 04,, 21:41
actualy ray most of america is moderate, they fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, successfull democrats like clinton where able to compramise just slighly enough to pull from the middle, its the key to liberal leadership, if democrats keep thier tone down they get elected. calling them hicks and hillybillies are what makes middle america look at the left as elitist, and since there is no strong middle candidate they have to shift to the right. strong moderate democrats are what most americans want as thier president.


Right Donnie, thats why they elected a bible Bigot 'armageddonist'???? :biggrin:

Yeah Ray thats what most Americans wanted! A moderate Democrat, and they saw it in this evangelist lovin bible Bigot! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

God our country is totally fukked! :mad: :mad:

Donnie
05 Nov 04,, 21:45
Right Donnie,

thats all you had to say

its funny you warned ray that he would have to face my wrath, when your the only one wrathing. its that elitist attitude of yours and the left that drives the middle to the right, but your to self consumed to see it.

Ray
05 Nov 04,, 22:18
Hey,

You guys are confusing me more than the media.

Officer of Engineers
05 Nov 04,, 23:09
Hey,

You guys are confusing me more than the media.

Sir,

I take the attitude that since I do not have a vote in the US Election, I would not bother with it. It's not worth the effort in trying to understand the issues. It is only after the election where now policy being made that has a direct effect on me that it is worth paying attention to.

lulldapull
05 Nov 04,, 23:13
thats all you had to say

its funny you warned ray that he would have to face my wrath, when your the only one wrathing. its that elitist attitude of yours and the left that drives the middle to the right, but your to self consumed to see it.


Looks like our buddy Donnie is a "God-fearing" bible lovin jeezer? :biggrin:

AaaaaaaaaahAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :biggrin: :biggrin:

Gotcha Donnie! :biggrin:

Ray don't be side tracked by this guys vain attemps to paint himself as a "centre/ right/ middle class/ elitist hating/ armegeddonist/ bible humping"..... Cheese pumper! :biggrin:

you know what he is! He's a jeezer! :) but wont admit it to it publicly. :)

Confed999
06 Nov 04,, 01:27
its funny you warned ray that he would have to face my wrath, when your the only one wrathing. its that elitist attitude of yours and the left that drives the middle to the right, but your to self consumed to see it.
Yep. Sad that people let their hate consume them.

lulldapull
06 Nov 04,, 02:57
Yep. Sad that people let their hate consume them.


:biggrin: :biggrin:

Oh so now 'a fundo christian suggestive innuendo/ connotation' somehow mysteriously is being deciphered as 'hate"??? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

thats hilarious Confed......

But I goto give it up though, that i probably wouldn't be here much if it wasn't for you and Smilling kiddo, or my new and very emotionally attached buddy 'Donnie'! :biggrin:

Confed999
06 Nov 04,, 03:32
Oh so now 'a fundo christian suggestive innuendo/ connotation' somehow mysteriously is being deciphered as 'hate"???
Because only someone that hates them would describe it that way.

But I goto give it up though, that i probably wouldn't be here much if it wasn't for you and Smilling kiddo, or my new and very emotionally attached buddy 'Donnie'!
That's super... As long as you're nice about it...

lulldapull
06 Nov 04,, 03:52
Hey now! After watching the Jerry Falwell Special or the Apocolyptic high energy Armegeddon special by Pat Robertson or Jimmy Swaggert on 'current Issues' it can only lead one to believe that them boys are nut cases! :biggrin: :biggrin:

the sad part though is that these boys are pretty close to the Govt. and their milions of jeezers control the ballot Confed! :) now its appaling to me that the sizeable numbers of Americans that these zealots control, and that they are close to Dubbya! He's been singin their tune about his 'born again' or extra-terrestrial sort of experiences, where they showed him with billy Graham back in the 80's, after he got caught snorting coke :)

Graham converted that boy, and took away his bottle! :biggrin:

And now when you hear him say "my religion", and "my convictions" or "my Crusade" .........that makes him sound like a dangerous ' middle-eastern' man. :) I tought even the Jeezers and these zealots are supposed to respect that divide between church and State. Apparently that dividing line has grayed out a lot in the last 4 years.

With direct attacks on abortion and gay laws and stem cell issue, coming from the right, someone's gotto stop this bigotry man. It appears the U.S. is slowly becoming a fundo state! And i strongly believe that when the beardo will attack us next, ( And attack us he will) our country will become more right wing and more fundo!

Donnie
06 Nov 04,, 14:35
Hey,

You guys are confusing me more than the media.

thats because the US is not black and white on every issue, as much as extremeist might like to make you think they are.

Donnie
06 Nov 04,, 14:37
But I goto give it up though, that i probably wouldn't be here much if it wasn't for you and Smilling kiddo, or my new and very emotionally attached buddy 'Donnie'! :biggrin:

thanks

Donnie
06 Nov 04,, 14:39
you know what he is! He's a jeezer! :) but wont admit it to it publicly. :)

not sure what a jeezer is, enlighten me.

Confed999
06 Nov 04,, 17:09
Hey now! After watching the Jerry Falwell Special or the Apocolyptic high energy Armegeddon special by Pat Robertson or Jimmy Swaggert on 'current Issues' it can only lead one to believe that them boys are nut cases!
Your statements about them, are mirror image to theirs.

and their milions of jeezers control the ballot Confed!
It was a pretty close race though huh? Kinda makes that "control" thing seem implauseable.

now its appaling to me that the sizeable numbers of Americans that these zealots control, and that they are close to Dubbya!
How about the ones controlled by unions and people like Jackson, and how close they are to democrats. I don't actually believe any of them are under any kind of control.

With direct attacks on abortion and gay laws and stem cell issue
Hmmmm, they tried to stop partial birth abortion, and no other form. They tried to give the gays, and everyone else, the right to civil unions. They stopped funding stem cell research, why is the government funding stem cell research anyway? If the republicans were funding it, then the liberals would have started shouting about pharmaceutical company pay offs.