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Ray
02 Nov 04,, 07:19
Navy to lease Russian N-submarine

PTI[ THURSDAY, OCTOBER 21, 2004 04:32:37 PM ]

MOSCOW: India is to lease a multi-role nuclear submarine from Russia for 10 years under a deal signed earlier this year, according to the defence industry sources.

"The two nations have inked the deal for the 10-year lease of the submarine of project 971 (Nato name Akula-II)," Itar-Tass reported, quoting unnamed defence industry sources.

The Akula-II class third generation nuclear powered submarine was inducted by the Soviet Navy in 1984 and is said to be superior to the deadly US 'Los Angeles' class nuclear submarines.

According to Itar-Tass, a similar N-submarine "Vepr" (Boar), built in 1996, recently took part in the first ever war games with France.

The submarine to be leased by India is a Project 971 'Nerpa' (Sea Seal) nuclear submarine, which is being constructed at the Amur ship building facility, Komsomolsk-on-Amur town right across the Chinese border.

"It is 85 per cent ready right now," another source was quoted as saying by Interfax agency.

India and Russia had agreed on the leasing deal at the beginning of this year, Interfax reported, quoting an unnamed official.

The submarine is expected to be ready by 2007. An Indian crew will then arrive in Russia for the training.

According to experts, India would be paying tens of millions of dollars annually for the lease.

In 1990s, India and Russia had agreed on a package to boost Indian Navy's blue water capability, which included the simultaneous acquisition of Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, lease of two Akula class nuclear submarines and four Tu-22M3 (Nato name Backfire) strategic bombers.

In January last, the two countries had announced inking of Gorshkov deal in New Delhi paving the way for progress on other components of the package.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/894763.cms

The nuclear submarines and the bombers will increase the Indian Navy' strategic paradigm.

In addition, the Navy is acquring two IL 38 and is negotiating with the US for eight P - 3C Orion aircraft.

These acquistions will indeed give teeth to the existing blue water capability of the India Navy.

Officer of Engineers
02 Nov 04,, 07:56
Sir,

I want to salute whoever Indian sailors who is willing to go near a Russian nuclear reactor that has been rusting in salt water for the past 10 years. Those guys got balls ... and probably will very soon start reading in the dark without turning on the lights.

Ray
02 Nov 04,, 21:49
Colonel,

I have been on a sub. A Russian one. Not so bad as you are implying!

The only complaints I have is that it is claustrophobic and you have to line up to use the toilet, irrespective of the rank and you bowel pressure! :)

ajaybhutani
02 Nov 04,, 22:10
I do see a valid point in OoE's statement.These submarines were schedules to be produced yeards back but the russians couldnot complete them due to lack of funds most of the equipment (including the reactor core ) must have been lying like scrap in the stores of russian docks for years.The reactor especially can be really a matter of concern as it might have been effected severely due to lack of maintenance for sucha long time.Though again if the indians will feel that the submarine is not safe i dont think they will go for it and this might even be one of the reaons(or the only reason) the deal is not yet accepted by indian/russian oficial sources.

Ray
02 Nov 04,, 22:29
Ajay,

What do you think Indians are like?

Some idiots, who don't know the ABCs?

What makes you feel that they are in the Dark Ages? You think the Indians have no idea of nuke tech?

We have already had our experience with one of their nuke subs leased years ago. We are quite well versed with nuke tech even in the big stuff.;)

Please stop being condescending.

Notwithstanding the disparaging comments in western media about Russian equipment that they are lousy.

They are not sophisticated I will agree, but yet they are more robust and dependable.

Ask the terrorists.

What does the wrolkd terrorists prefer? AK 47 or a M 16?

Or even ask the US soldiers in Iraq!

I have seen enough of comments here and elsewhere that AK 47 is not even worth giving as a Christmas gift to a toddler. And yet, the US soldiers use AK 47 in Iraq having junked their fancy M 16!

In the 1965 War, the much flaunted, sophsticated and 'powerful' state of the art US Patton tanks, donated to Pakistan came a cropper to the lowly Shermans and Centurions of India!

Propaganda and military arms dealers glossy are just that good and no more .... excellent in the glossies. ;)

Indians are not that dumb. Just looka t yourself. You avhe an Indian name and you are in the US. I am sure you are not a orange picker in a Californian orange grove or a grape picker in some Californian vinyard.

Officer of Engineers
02 Nov 04,, 23:02
Colonel,

I have been on a sub. A Russian one. Not so bad as you are implying!

The only complaints I have is that it is claustrophobic and you have to line up to use the toilet, irrespective of the rank and you bowel pressure! :)

PRECISELY, Sir.

Civilian reactors got 12 feet of concrete as shielding. Subs got inches of steel (steel that has been rusting I might add) and it is an extremely tight space that you might as well be kissing the reactor.

I take my beret off to the submariner crowd and I salute those willing to live beside a big bad pissed off fireball that has a mind of its own.

Also, Sir, your last statement does bring a new meaning of blowing it out of your a s s.

ajaybhutani
03 Nov 04,, 16:18
Ajay,

What do you think Indians are like?

Some idiots, who don't know the ABCs?

What makes you feel that they are in the Dark Ages? You think the Indians have no idea of nuke tech?

Well in comparison to the russian and american Nuke Tech i'll still consider indian nuke tech as primitive, or else indians would not have to implement the



We have already had our experience with one of their nuke subs leased years ago. We are quite well versed with nuke tech even in the big stuff.;)

Please stop being condescending.


Well i m not adn the only proof i have for it is written in the end of this mail.


Notwithstanding the disparaging comments in western media about Russian equipment that they are lousy.

They are not sophisticated I will agree, but yet they are more robust and dependable.

Ask the terrorists.

What does the wrolkd terrorists prefer? AK 47 or a M 16?

Or even ask the US soldiers in Iraq!

I have seen enough of comments here and elsewhere that AK 47 is not even worth giving as a Christmas gift to a toddler. And yet, the US soldiers use AK 47 in Iraq having junked their fancy M 16!

In the 1965 War, the much flaunted, sophsticated and 'powerful' state of the art US Patton tanks, donated to Pakistan came a cropper to the lowly Shermans and Centurions of India!

Propaganda and military arms dealers glossy are just that good and no more .... excellent in the glossies. ;)




1. I just raised concerns over the fact that the material lying unused is not really safe.And if u forgot to notice the last line of my mail i'll requote it



.Though again if the indians will feel that the submarine is not safe i dont think they will go for it and this might even be one of the reaons(or the only reason) the deal is not yet accepted by indian/russian oficial sources.


I still stick to my point that the russian akulas were left half built due to lack of funds and thus the equiment esp reactor is a matter of concern..Do u really think that whatever be the condition indians should go for it .??

2. Nowhere in my post i said that russian equipment is crap. If u feel otherwiase u can pin point where i did such a blunder.Well u can even go to the thread "MKI vs F15" and see how much i have debated in favour of N011M radar of MKi wrt to the AESA .Well N011M is the russian radar and mki is a russian plane .In the same thread u can see me debating a lot in support of Russian equiplments.



Indians are not that dumb. Just looka t yourself. You have an Indian name and you are in the US. I am sure you are not a orange picker in a Californian orange grove or a grape picker in some Californian vinyard.

Well i have an indian name but i m not a orange picker/grape picker.I m 100% indian. and i'll put down some facts to prove it
1. please look at my introduciton thread
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=2912

2. I have been most of the time discussing indian /asian issues.

3. Myaddress is A-63 Jwalamukhi Hostel IIT(Indian Institute of Technology) Delhi Hauz Khas , Delhi India . Mail csu01098@cse.iitd.ernet.in ,ajaybhutani18@rediffmail.com. Mobile 9891708270.

Ray
03 Nov 04,, 21:18
Colonel,

It matters not how safe the sub is. It is a question of national security.

Lets get to the e mail.

Remember the US sub Thresher?

ajaybhutani
04 Nov 04,, 09:33
Considering the dire need of a nuclear sub in indian navy cost to a large extent is not a hindrance.So theres stands a good chance that in case indians feel that some component is not in a good shape they would prefer to get it changed.(i read somewhere that indians are paying for the rest of left construction of the subs).
Furthermore why cant indians buy them instead of leasing them..is tehre some international treaty that debarrs them to do it . will buying the subs be of better use than leasing them( one obvoius thing is taht we wont ahve to return them back ..:D..)

ajaybhutani
04 Nov 04,, 09:43
Another question considering that indian kilos have cruise missiles of only 300km range due to missile treaties so wont the ability of akulas as the second strike platform(indians need a second strike capability in case of nuclear conflict) be greately reduced as even the missiles they get will not exceed 300km in range..

Franco Lolan
05 Nov 04,, 13:15
what sub would India employ in anti-ship and anti-sub operations?

Samudra
05 Nov 04,, 16:35
Colonel

Sir , would it be appropriate of us to imagine the Indian Navy looking the other way when it comes to safety of its crew ?

With all due respect , i believe the Indian Navy knows the "precise" state of those submarines.We on the other hand , can only speculate.

ajay bhutani
Chill man , Navy knows better than us.Its their job.Missiles and torpedos , they know what they want and wont settle without the best they can lay their hands on.

Ray
Sir , Fully agree about the Russians and their weapons.
It always looks like the only Russian things cute are their girls.

Officer of Engineers
05 Nov 04,, 21:59
Colonel

Sir , would it be appropriate of us to imagine the Indian Navy looking the other way when it comes to safety of its crew ?

With all due respect , i believe the Indian Navy knows the "precise" state of those submarines.We on the other hand , can only speculate.

I don't think so. It's going to be a rebuilt sub and no one knows the full state of those subs until they got it out and try it out and that's going to be at least 3 years from the day of the InN takes delivery. There will be glitches. Some minor. Some very major - that's just the way subs are.

And there's another thing, a very unwanted but somewhat necessary initiation into the submarine force club. If you have not lost a crew, you're not consider a submarine power. Most submarine peacetime losses are because of stupid mistakes and there is a tendency to assume "I'm not that stupid" attitude. The sad truth is "yes, you are" and when you make that mistake, submarines are very unforgiving.

It is only when you adopt the "yes, I am stupid" attitude that you start to begin to become a submarine force. You check, double check, and tripple check your actions. Very unfortunately, this lesson can only be learned when you lose a sub and its crew.

ajaybhutani
06 Nov 04,, 00:10
Colonel

Sir , would it be appropriate of us to imagine the Indian Navy looking the other way when it comes to safety of its crew ?

With all due respect , i believe the Indian Navy knows the "precise" state of those submarines.We on the other hand , can only speculate.

ajay bhutani
Chill man , Navy knows better than us.Its their job.Missiles and torpedos , they know what they want and wont settle without the best they can lay their hands on.

Ray
Sir , Fully agree about the Russians and their weapons.
It always looks like the only Russian things cute are their girls.
My friend i beg to differ on this point. Lemme give u a perfect example. Look at IAF. It gets a bunch lot of money and attention in our armed forces.Thay are still flying MIG21 most of which have nearly finished their life span(all except the bis versions that are being upgraded to 91 types). There are crashes but who gotta go along as its the matter of national security.Look at The advanced jet trainer . We couldnot get them so we still train out [pilots derectly in mig21 till the hawk aare made available.
Now about our navy the prob is we need nuke subs so badly that even if it comes with some minor /major glitches we will get it.For instance we can pay and get a lopt of rotten material replaced(if we have money which i geuss shoul;dnot be a problem ) but if we expect russains to build a new reactor core for us , its gonna be a hard job to convince them replace it.Again if we find it difficult to pay some somethin that we is not in good shape we might just go with it, after all its a matter of national security and a lot can be compromised for it.

ajaybhutani
06 Nov 04,, 00:18
I don't think so. It's going to be a rebuilt sub and no one knows the full state of those subs until they got it out and try it out and that's going to be at least 3 years from the day of the InN takes delivery. There will be glitches. Some minor. Some very major - that's just the way subs are.

And there's another thing, a very unwanted but somewhat necessary initiation into the submarine force club. If you have not lost a crew, you're not consider a submarine power. Most submarine peacetime losses are because of stupid mistakes and there is a tendency to assume "I'm not that stupid" attitude. The sad truth is "yes, you are" and when you make that mistake, submarines are very unforgiving.

It is only when you adopt the "yes, I am stupid" attitude that you start to begin to become a submarine force. You check, double check, and tripple check your actions. Very unfortunately, this lesson can only be learned when you lose a sub and its crew.
well i understand that once we make a mistake we are extra careful and dont make it again.But clearly there can be instances where people learn without making mistakes first. If otehrs loose a sub & crew before learning how to get their act right it dsnt mean that indians will also learn this hard way. Theres always an option that they learn from others mistakes

Samudra
06 Nov 04,, 05:53
I don't think so. It's going to be a rebuilt sub and no one knows the full state of those subs until they got it out and try it out and that's going to be at least 3 years from the day of the InN takes delivery. There will be glitches. Some minor. Some very major - that's just the way subs are.

And there's another thing, a very unwanted but somewhat necessary initiation into the submarine force club. If you have not lost a crew, you're not consider a submarine power. Most submarine peacetime losses are because of stupid mistakes and there is a tendency to assume "I'm not that stupid" attitude. The sad truth is "yes, you are" and when you make that mistake, submarines are very unforgiving.

It is only when you adopt the "yes, I am stupid" attitude that you start to begin to become a submarine force. You check, double check, and tripple check your actions. Very unfortunately, this lesson can only be learned when you lose a sub and its crew.

Sir
In a way , you are right.Accidents are needed for perfecting things.
Somehow i guess you forsee an accident in the IN , and it shivers me timbers :frown:

I am not informed enough about the criteria to become a submarine power , but i am confident the IN knows it has to know that it is stupid,going by your theory. :frown:

Officer of Engineers
06 Nov 04,, 05:56
Ask the Chinese about their MING. Or the Russians about the KURSK.

Officer of Engineers
06 Nov 04,, 06:07
well i understand that once we make a mistake we are extra careful and dont make it again.But clearly there can be instances where people learn without making mistakes first. If otehrs loose a sub & crew before learning how to get their act right it dsnt mean that indians will also learn this hard way. Theres always an option that they learn from others mistakes

Exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Aside from the MING and the KURSK, take a look at what happenned to HMCS CHICOUTIMI. If long time submariners keep making this mistake, what makes you think Indians are anymore immune?

ajaybhutani
06 Nov 04,, 10:08
Exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Aside from the MING and the KURSK, take a look at what happenned to HMCS CHICOUTIMI. If long time submariners keep making this mistake, what makes you think Indians are anymore immune?
i m not intending to say that indians are immune but yes theres an old saying:
There are three kinds of people in this world the first set makes mistakes again and again. the second set makes a mistake once and learns from it and dsnt repeat it . The third set sees others making a mistakes and learns from them and thus stands the best chance of not making mistakes.

In the same way i expect /hope that indian Navy learns from all the accidents that have happened in the past in other navies instead of itself loosing a sub and them getting its senses back. all ui want to say is that theres always a chance that indians might learn from others mistakes in this regard ,aybe just a 10% chance.Well the point is i m acting like a optimist that they might learn without mistakes while u are going by ur experience that they will make a mistake before learning . I geuss only time will tell wether my optimism was justified or not . :biggrin:

Officer of Engineers
06 Nov 04,, 14:26
We're not talking individuals here. We're talking entire crews. All it takes is one person who thinks "I cannot be that stupid." That's what happenned on the MING.

ajaybhutani
06 Nov 04,, 16:08
i agree with that ..but i woudl say that in a way u sound like u are expecting an accident in IN and taht too a big one. Frankly most miskates might force the sub to come up the surface etc.. frankly there are so many mistakes one can learn from which donot include loosing the sub ..

Officer of Engineers
06 Nov 04,, 18:10
but i woudl say that in a way u sound like u are expecting an accident in IN and taht too a big one.

I do and I cannot see how it can be avoided. The InN is adopting a very ambitious posture which translate into a very aggressive submarine program. The Indians also have a reputation of pushing men and machine to their limits and at times beyond. Those points combined with the history of submarine operations across the globe is stating not if but when is India going to have a big submarine disaster.


Frankly most miskates might force the sub to come up the surface etc.. frankly there are so many mistakes one can learn from which donot include loosing the sub ..

And you will make plenty of those but you're missing the point. It has not hit home that sub ops are not dangerous, they're lethal. Until that point hits home ... and it cannot hit home when it happens to others because it ain't your home that it happenned to, you're not considered a true sub force.

Samudra
06 Nov 04,, 18:43
Sir
I agree.Indians are not any better humans than others.
There is always room for mistakes.You comment was misread that you implied to say everything Russian was all junk. As you said lets Salute those brave !
(but the sub wont be THAT bad eh ? )

Franco Lolan
06 Nov 04,, 18:58
subs will be great. sure, they might be a little used, but the Indians won't buy complete junk. any nuclear sub will help the indian navy dev its own.

Officer of Engineers
06 Nov 04,, 23:38
You comment was misread that you implied to say everything Russian was all junk. As you said lets Salute those brave !
(but the sub wont be THAT bad eh ? )

You will find that I am not one of those who gets into a pissing contest about which weapon is better than the other. As far as I am concern, just get it into the hands of the people who will have to use the things. They'll figure out what to do ... and what not to do. My point has always been, okay, this may not be the best weapon on earth but is it good enough? If it is, then treat it with the respect that it deserves. If it isn't, ... well, soldiers have been known to lose things.

Is it a bad sub? I don't think so. However, that does not mean that it's going to be smooth sailing for the InN. On the contrary, there would be so much frustration times when the InN would question why the hell did they sign to get this thing. That's just the way breaking in new subs (or refurbished subs) works.

Ray
08 Nov 04,, 13:59
Colonel,

We have already used one Russian nuke sub.

My naval friends did not complain.

There is no doubt that a US sub would have better crew comfort and safety, but then when one does not produce nuke subs or any subs, one must accept what one can buy.

It is true that Indian are driven hard and to the limit, but I wonder if we have done to badly.

Officer of Engineers
08 Nov 04,, 15:44
Sir,

As I said before when you're buying off the shelf, you're paying for someone else to go through the acceptance pain.

No, Sir, the InN has not done too badly and is an extremely fine blue water navy ... but it has not hit home just how lethal sub ops are. I pray that day will never come ... but I'm expecting it. It has happenned to every navy when they started getting aggressive in sub ops, I don't see how that would be different with India.

ajaybhutani
08 Nov 04,, 15:57
Considering that its a leased sub wont the indians be extra careful wether we stretch the man & machine to the limit or not . as we have to return this thing back.Certainly they wouldnt be wanting to stretch the machine to the limit.

Officer of Engineers
08 Nov 04,, 16:24
You mean playing it safe and not do the dangerous things. Can't see it.