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View Full Version : Bush and Rumsfeld and all them Neocons should just God-damn Resign!



lulldapull
26 Oct 04,, 20:47
Here yo go! an insult to the continuous injuries we are all suffereing since these baastards invaded Iraq in a move reminiscent of the LBJ administration! :mad: This is a God-damn outrage and the height of incompetence! There ought to be a law here for incompetent idiots like these Neocons be thrown out of office for running our country into the ground! god I ave never seen such incompetence ever! Rumsfeld should be fired immediately! This is a God-damn outrage! :mad:

380 tons of explosives missing in Iraq

VIENNA, Oct 25: Nearly 400 tons of powerful explosives that could be used in conventional or nuclear missiles disappeared from an unguarded military installation in Iraq, the International Atomic Energy Agency said on Monday.

The Iraqi ministry of science and technology informed the IAEA of the disappearance of 380 tons of mainly HMX and RDX explosive materiel on Oct 10, agency spokeswoman Melissa Fleming told AFP, confirming a report in The New York Times.

"It can be used in a nuclear explosion device, for the explosion," she said, adding: "That's why it was under IAEA verification and monitoring" before the US-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003.

The NYT said the materiel could produce bombs strong enough to shatter aeroplanes or tear the buildings apart.

Ms Fleming noted: "From a proliferation standpoint there is a possible application in nuclear weapons, (but) the most immediate concern is the threat of the explosive falling in the wrong hands and being used to commit terrorist acts."

The NYT reported that the explosives disappeared from the sprawling Al Qaqaa facility, which "was supposed to be under American military control but is now a no man's land, still picked over by looters as recently as Sunday."

"White House and Pentagon officials acknowledge that the explosives vanished sometime after the American-led invasion."

After UN weapons inspectors left Iraq under US pressure last year, "our only ability ... to monitor these sites is through satellite imagery. It was very difficult to detect here (from IAEA headquarters in Vienna), because the things were in bunkers," Ms Fleming said.

She said IAEA chief Mohamed ElBaradei would report the matter to the UN Security Council.

Our Washington correspondent adds: Meanwhile, the news prompted Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry to declare that this was "one of the great blunders" of the Bush administration.

US officials told reporters that President Bush's National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice had been informed of the missing explosives in September. Iraq's interim government had also informed the United States and UN nuclear inspectors that the explosives had vanished.

Senator Kerry said that failure to secure hundreds of tons of explosives now missing in Iraq was "one of the great blunders" of the war by the Bush administration. "Terrorists could use this material to kill our troops (and) our people, blow up aeroplanes and level buildings.

"The unbelievable blindness, stubbornness (and) arrogance of this administration to do the basics have now allowed this president to once again fail the test of being the commander in chief," Mr Kerry told an election rally.

Confed999
27 Oct 04,, 02:48
Hmmmm, nuclear program stuff huh? Thought that was all gone? BTW, how could "looters" take 380 tons of anything? Who has proof the explosives were even still there after the troops got there? Could Kerry have protected them with his little camo suit and shotgun? If so, where was he?

Julie
27 Oct 04,, 03:20
Hmmmm, nuclear program stuff huh? Thought that was all gone? BTW, how could "looters" take 380 tons of anything? Who has proof the explosives were even still there after the troops got there? Could Kerry have protected them with his little camo suit and shotgun? If so, where was he?

Oh please, can't you respond any better than that? I try to stay away from these military threads, but you have got to admit, that incident Lulldapull posted is incompetent, if ever anyone can see! AND, it was supposed to stay "hush-hush" until after the presidential election -- why so???? Does that mean even Bush himself thought it would make him look incompetent as a Commander in Chief? Well, duh !! I imagine so.

How many other things have occurred that we don't know about? I'm scared to even imagine.....that's why I don't want Bush re-elected!

Confed999
27 Oct 04,, 04:08
Oh please, can't you respond any better than that?
Not without more information, as I indicated. You may take things at face value, but if it's part of political rhetoric, I need alot more info. Also, being from the NYT, the reporting is suspect, they've allready been caught publishing false stories.

but you have got to admit, that incident Lulldapull posted is incompetent, if ever anyone can see!
Except other reports, including imbedded NBC reporter reports, are saying the stuff was gone when they got there. Like I said, I need alot more info than has been provided.

Bush
Again, how is Bush involved? Now Bush has to pick every spot in Iraq that has to be guarded?

I knda hope Kerry is elected, and we'll get to do all of this same stuff to you libs. Whether Kerry had anything to do with it or not.

Ray
27 Oct 04,, 05:48
These sites had been indentified by the UN Inspector team as those which were being used for WMD and had been inspected. They did not contain WMD, but did contain RDX ( a potent explosives and is very popular with terrorists) and HMX ( the later variety can be used for triggering off Atom bombs and can be used to demolish buildings). These were sealed by the UN Team.

All sites identified by UN Inspections should have been taken over by the Invasion Force. However, in the heat of battle and the heady aftermath of the military task being achieved = Mission Accomplished, I reckon this issue was forgotten or given perfunctory attention.

As a neutral observer, I feel that while the military operation was perfect and well planned, everything else was left to God and good luck. Obvioulsy, the fgallout would be exactly what is being observed, wherein Iraq has turned out to be messy and each day increasingly srings new surprises, that indicates very shoddy planning (not with the military) but on the part of those who visualised the political, social and overall strategy.

Indeed, if there were WMD and they are not found because Saddam could have squirreled it off elsewhere, then again, the fault lies at the doorstep of those who conceptualised the operation and the strategy. It is not feasible to move the large quantity of WMD that Saddam is said to have possessed without it having been observed, given the 24 hours suveillance Iraq wa subjected to and the 2/3 of the country covered by teh no fly zone.

Officer of Engineers
27 Oct 04,, 13:28
Julie,

I would be very surprised if that warehouse was not already empty by the time the Coalition reached it. Soldiers are not in the habbit of leaving bad things or bad guys in the rear area.

smilingassassin
27 Oct 04,, 14:00
Dob't beleave the hype. In an election week rush:

**ABCNEWS Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 4 Times
**CBSNEWS Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 7 Times
**MSNBC Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 37 Times
**CNN Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 50 Times

But NBCNEWS reported: The 380 tons of powerful conventional explosives were already missing back in April 10, 2003 -- when U.S. troops arrived at the installation south of Baghdad!

An NBCNEWS crew embedded with troops moved in to secure the Al-Qaqaa weapons facility on April 10, 2003, one day after the liberation of Iraq.

According to NBCNEWS, the HMX and RDX explosives were already missing when the American troops arrived.

So now, lets get this straight - the special explosives used in nuclear weapons development that Iraq didn't have or in terrorist operations that Iraq didn't participate in - were missing prior to the US invasion had already been either buried, hidden or moved to Syria - which never took place.

I've been an avid beleaver that the WMD's were shiped of to Syria, the U.S. had troops poised to move through Turkey and they could have secured the border before these weapons could leave. Turkey flip floped back and forth before finnaly refusing to let the U.S transit through its teritory. IIRC Turkey wanted nato assets to protect them in order to accomidate the U.S plans but as usual the French scuttled it.

Lets also not forget Jordanians uncovered a Sarin plot by Syrian nationals weeks after the fall of Bagdad where did they get all the sarin from?, but of course this is just fancifull thinking in the eyes of the treasonous left, who would rather call the Iraq war Illegal because it dosn't follow the past actions of the U.S., which incidentally were wrong but Bush is wrong for not following them.

lulldapull
27 Oct 04,, 14:57
I swear to God I feel like walking up to this Rumsfeld baastard and biitch slapping him so God-damn hard that he'd stumble and falls over :mad:

God! man what a bunch of incompetent buffoons! From day one these guys have not got anything right! :mad:

Look at the latest! That A-raanb monkey El-Baradei from the IAEA is sounding off the alarm, and telling ppl that this is where these terrorists are getting the RDX to make those tiny hard to detect but powerful road side Bombs!

I literally have absolutely zero confidence in Rumsfeld now! This is criminal negligence! :mad:

Rusmsfeld should be God-damn fired! :mad:

Tons of Iraq explosives missing
'Massive' facility also held large caches of artillery
Monday, October 25, 2004 Posted: 8:52 PM EDT (0052 GMT)


(CNN) -- Some 380 tons of explosives powerful enough to detonate nuclear warheads are missing from a former Iraqi military facility that was supposed to be under American control, the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog agency says.

Melissa Fleming, spokeswoman for the International Atomic Energy Agency, said the interim Iraqi government reported to the agency several days ago in a letter that the explosives were missing from the Al Qaqaa complex south of Baghdad.

The explosives -- considered powerful enough to demolish buildings or detonate nuclear warheads -- were under IAEA control until the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003. IAEA workers left the country before the fighting began.

"Our immediate concern is that if the explosives did fall into the wrong hands, they could be used to commit terrorist acts and some of the bombings that we've seen," Fleming said.

She described Al Qaqaa as "massive" and said it is one of the most well-known storage sites. Besides the explosives, it also held large caches of artillery.

Fleming said the IAEA, which is based in Vienna, Austria, did not know whether some of the explosives may have been used in past attacks.

Deputy State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said the multinational force in Iraq and the Bush administration's Iraq Survey Group had been ordered to investigate the disappearance of the explosives.

The news followed an IAEA report earlier this month that said high-end, dual-use machinery that could be used in a nuclear weapons program was missing from Iraq's nuclear facilities. (Full story)

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said President Bush wants to determine what went wrong.

McClellan, talking to reporters on Air Force One, said the storage site was the responsibility of the interim Iraqi government, not the United States, as of the June 28 transfer of power.

McClellan said the Iraqi government reported the missing weaponry to the IAEA in a letter dated October 10, and the IAEA informed the U.S. mission in Vienna on October 15. National security adviser Condoleezza Rice was told a few days later, then informed the president.

The Iraqi letter said the material disappeared "due to lack of security" of government installations during the looting that followed the fall of dictator Saddam Hussein's regime in April 2003.

The IAEA said that before the war it inspected the Al Qaqaa facility multiple times and verified that the material was present in January 2003. The agency said the material was mentioned in reports to the U.N. Security Council that were made public.

Ereli said coalition forces searched 32 bunkers and 87 other buildings at the Al Qaqaa facility after the war for weapons of mass destruction. The troops found none, but did see indications of looting, he said. Bush declared an end to major combat operations in Iraq on May 1, 2003.

"Some explosive material at the time was discovered, although none of it carried IAEA seals, and this discovery was reported to coalition forces for removal of the material," Ereli said.

Ereli said coalition forces have cleared 10,033 weapons caches and destroyed 243,000 tons of munitions. Another 162,898 tons of munitions are at secure locations and awaiting destruction, he said.

A senior administration official played down the importance of the missing explosives, describing them as dangerous material but "stuff you can buy anywhere."

The official noted that the administration did not see this necessarily as a "proliferation risk."

"In the grand scheme -- and on a grand scale -- there are hundreds of tons of weapons, munitions, artillery, explosives that are unaccounted for in Iraq," the official said.

"And like the Pentagon has said, there is really no way the U.S. military could safeguard all of these weapons depots or find all of these missing materials."

The official said the Iraq Survey Group concluded that Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction and documented the scope of the problem.

Threat from terrorists
A European diplomat told The New York Times that Mohamed ElBaradei, director general of the IAEA, is "extremely concerned" about the potentially "devastating consequences" of the vanished stockpile.

"The immediate danger" of the lost stockpiles is its potential use by insurgents to make small, but powerful, bombs, an expert told the Times. The expert said the explosives could be transported easily across the Middle East.

According to the Times, the stockpiles missing from Al Qaqaa are the strongest and fastest in common use by militaries around the globe.

The Iraqi letter to the IAEA identified the vanished explosives as containing 194.7 metric tons of HMX, or "high melting point explosive," 141.2 metric tons of RDX, or "rapid detonation explosive," among other designations, and 5.8 metric tons of PETN, or "pentaerythritol tetranitrate."

Fleming said the IAEA, whose mission is to keep track of everything with potential nuclear weapons applications, had been monitoring about 100 sites in Iraq, but there were only a few of special concern, including Al Qaqaa.

"This is a real massive quantity of explosives that could have reached the hands of insurgents and could be used with deadly force and consequences against people in Iraq," Fleming said.

"One would have to assume it's been stolen by someone who has some sort of nefarious purpose for it."

Political fallout
With the U.S. presidential election eight days away, Democratic presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry seized on the information.

"If President Bush can't recognize his failures in Iraq -- which he doesn't admit, won't acknowledge -- you can't fix them. And then he's doomed to repeat the same mistakes elsewhere," Kerry said. (Full story)

The Bush campaign responded in kind.

"John Kerry has no vision for fighting and winning the war on terror, so he is basing his attack on the headlines he wakes up to each day," said Bush-Cheney campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt.

CNN's Suzanne Malveaux and Elise Labott contributed to this report

Julie
27 Oct 04,, 14:58
Again, how is Bush involved? Now Bush has to pick every spot in Iraq that has to be guarded?

The Bush "Administration" seemed to have alot of satellite photos of what Iraq did have at the UN meeting to convince them an invasion was required. Wasn't satellite resources monitoring these sites closely during the pre-emptive invasion which is specifically important during a post-war planning phase? I mean since WMD were the main topic of issue, weapons in Iraq should have been one of the first and foremost secured, especially for the safety of our troops in the post-war. The UN left Iraq right before the invasion, so we know they were not there guarding them, and the UN did beg to go back into right after the invasion, but were denied access by the US.

Based upon that, I would say the title "Commander In Chief" is not just a title, but is supposed to carry a certain amount of responsibility on his watch for incompetence such as this. And, giving Bush the benefit of the doubt, if he is not solely responsible, then he needs to fire the one who obviously is. That is part of his administration, and when the lives of our troops are at stake, horrible incidents such as this are inexcusable and should not be downplayed.


Except other reports, including imbedded NBC reporter reports, are saying the stuff was gone when they got there. Like I said, I need alot more info than has been provided.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3955673.stm

How much more do you need to prove the incompetence of this whole administration? Do you need to actually be there to see it first-hand?

The many excuses for this current Presidency is so "politics" to me, it almost makes me sick. :mad:

Jay
27 Oct 04,, 15:09
It still is a mystery. How the heck were they able to move 380 T of high explosives in a desert. Is it for real or is it like WMD story :rolleyes:

Iraq was/is/will be under surveillence and I dont think a convoy of vehicles in an open desert is that easy to hide. Its very hard to believe this news. This thing may be looted/distributed even before the war started.

lulldapull
27 Oct 04,, 15:12
I swear to God this has got to be the worst administration our country has ever seen! Pretty soon it'll all be over! our boys would come back home, and these Neocon buffoons will go down in history as the most incompetent and retarded bunch of bible bigots that disgraced us in front of Americans, let alone the god-damn world! :mad:

Every damn day that goes by, some disaster of sorts unfolds in Iraq! Very very disgusting situation, compounded by these religious fundo/ bible bigot administrtion! :mad: I mean what the hell were they thinking when they went in that god-forsaken country??? :mad:

Iraq is a total policy failure, and It is really a time of infamy for all of us! We should put Bush and co. on trial and lynch these incompetent baastards!

Julie
27 Oct 04,, 15:34
I swear to God this has got to be the worst administration our country has ever seen! Pretty soon it'll all be over! our boys would come back home, and these Neocon buffoons will go down in history as the most incompetent and retarded bunch of bible bigots that disgraced us in front of Americans, let alone the god-damn world! :mad:

Every damn day that goes by, some disaster of sorts unfolds in Iraq! Very very disgusting situation, compounded by these religious fundo/ bible bigot administrtion! :mad: I mean what the hell were they thinking when they went in that god-forsaken country??? :mad:

Iraq is a total policy failure, and It is really a time of infamy for all of us! We should put Bush and co. on trial and lynch these incompetent baastards!


Ditto. I feel like we're in a nightmare trying to wake up. :frown:

Jay
27 Oct 04,, 15:37
US plays down loss of explosives

The US is playing down the significance of a UN letter saying almost 350 metric tons of high explosives went missing from an Iraqi base after the war.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said there was no risk of nuclear proliferation because of the theft.

It has become a big election issue after President George Bush was accused of incompetence by his Democrat rival.

Meanwhile, some US media reports have queried if the theft happened before US troops arrived at the base at al-Qaqaa.

NBC television reported that one of its correspondents was embedded with the 101st Airborne Division which temporarily took control of the base on 10 April 2003 but did not find any of the explosives.

However, other US outlets, including NBC's own news website, quoted Pentagon officials who said a search of the site after the US-led invasion had revealed the explosives to be intact.

Weapons destroyed

Arms experts say the missing explosives - monitored by the UN nuclear watchdog until the March 2003 invasion - could potentially be used to make a detonator for a nuclear bomb or other explosive device.


MISSING EXPLOSIVES

US presidential challenger John Kerry condemned the incident as a prime example of what he said was President George W Bush's mishandling of the war in Iraq.

"This is... one of the greatest blunders of this administration - and the incredible incompetence of this president and this administration has put our troops at risk and this country at greater risk," Mr Kerry said.

Administration officials, quoted anonymously by US media, criticised the UN watchdog - the International Atomic Energy Agency - for leaking the news at such a sensitive time, a week before the US election.

The Vienna-based IAEA said it had been informed on 10 October by the Iraq interim government that the explosives were missing.

Mr McClellan pointed journalists to the 243,000 munitions destroyed in Iraq since the invasion, and another 163,000 earmarked for destruction.

"The first priority, from our standpoint, was to make sure that this wasn't a nuclear proliferation risk, which it is not," he said.

"These are conventional high explosives... and the president wants to make sure that we get to the bottom of this."

Improvised devices

The IAEA last inspected the munitions at al-Qaqaa in January 2003, at which point the HMX explosives had been sealed and tagged.

The agency has not been allowed back into Iraq since the invasion.

Analysts say the theft raises the possibility that some explosives could have found their way into improvised devices used against US-led forces in Iraq, or could do so in the future.

But US officials say the car and roadside bombings that have claimed thousands of lives in the Iraq insurgency have mostly used artillery shells or dynamite.

The explosives lost at Qaqaa consist mainly of 195 tons of HMX (high melting explosives) and 141 tons of RDX (cyclonite) - both key components in plastic explosives.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3955007.stm

lulldapull
27 Oct 04,, 16:28
Ditto. I feel like we're in a nightmare trying to wake up. :frown:


Man I tell you that this is exactly the type of situation that we faced in vietnam! Just an asss-hole being a bible bigot faag makes up his mind that he is going to have his way whether any one gives a rats asss or not!

The problem with this neocon/ bible bigot way of thinking is the very same myopic delusional thought process that goes without saying for all them God-damn middle eastern bull**** religions! :mad:

The problem of seeing the world through a warped fundo/ mulla lens is the same as it was 2000 years ago! and basically entails the hope and anticipation that reality turns out to be identical to their way of thinking because of an overwhelming personal desire to do so!

Religious and conservative Ppl make up fictitious claims and concoct bull**** stories and make up lies because they don't want their little fundo glass houses to shatter, despite knowing the God-damn truth! :biggrin:

This type of situation is nothing short of pseudo imperialism. very sad that our country has learn't nothing from the past 50 years of these types of total fiasco's and dilemma's.

I swear to God even if that God-damn pseudo A-raanb Ralph Nader were to get elected, I'd support him against these Bible bigot Fundo mullas that now sit in the White House!

Shame on all us Americans for not standing up to this incompetent tyrant christian mulla Bush!

Fonnicker
27 Oct 04,, 17:24
I find it convenient that now the the "Iraqi Government" is in place, when something goes wrong we can balme them for it.


McClellan, talking to reporters on Air Force One, said the storage site was the responsibility of the interim Iraqi government, not the United States, as of the June 28 transfer of power.

If indeed it's true that it would be impossible for the US to secure all of the weapons and explosives in Iraq, why not just say that? Why skirt around the issue and point the finger of blame?

lulldapull
27 Oct 04,, 18:22
I find it convenient that now the the "Iraqi Government" is in place, when something goes wrong we can balme them for it.



If indeed it's true that it would be impossible for the US to secure all of the weapons and explosives in Iraq, why not just say that? Why skirt around the issue and point the finger of blame?


Well here we go! The fat baastard Illawi like playing the blame game for the new recruits massacre! He's blaming us that "we " didn't plan right! :biggrin: :biggrin:

Seems like he's under the illusion tat we can be in Iraq for the rest of his soory asss life and he can count on us? :biggrin: ...Nnooootttttt! As soon as Kerry comes, gooo bye! Take care of your own crap buddy!

God talk about a total disaster! :mad: :mad: Now they are saying that this loser coalition of fags has been infiltratd by that Zarqawi terrorist and his gang! :mad:

Man we should just get the hell out of that shiit hole. These A-raanbs are good for nothing! Look at what a stellar job Pakistan has done in containing the fundo mulla's from crossing the border and killing Afghans and U.S. troops! Afghanistan seems to be a success! And look at these baastard A-raanbs in Iraq! We should just let them kill one and other:mad: :


Allawi blames US for recruit massacre
By Sam Dagher in Baghdad
October 28, 2004

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Iraq's interim Prime Minister has blamed the US-led military in Iraq for the slaying of 49 unarmed army recruits and three drivers on Saturday.

"I think it was because of gross negligence by some elements within the multinational forces," Iyad Allawi told the country's interim parliament on Tuesday.

"The killings represent the epitome of what could be done to hurt Iraq and the Iraqi people."

Dr Allawi characterised as a "dangerous precedent" the ambush and killing of army basic-training graduates as they were on their way from the Kirkush base near the Iranian border to their homes in the south.

Nassir al-Shadershi, an MP, had earlier accused authorities of failing in "their obligation to protect our own security forces". The deaths are being investigated.

The chief spokesman for US-led foreign troops in Iraq, Brigadier-General Erv Lessel, was not available for comment on Dr Allawi's remarks, but an aide said: "Obviously the training of Iraq's security forces is critical, so we will continue our partnership with the Iraqi government to mature the [Iraqi security forces]."

Dr Allawi on Tuesday also asked the United Nations to send troops to help secure elections scheduled for January and voiced concern over a manpower shortage in the Iraqi police

Julie
27 Oct 04,, 18:49
I find it convenient that now the the "Iraqi Government" is in place, when something goes wrong we can balme them for it.



If indeed it's true that it would be impossible for the US to secure all of the weapons and explosives in Iraq, why not just say that? Why skirt around the issue and point the finger of blame?

Downplaying and shifting the blame....that's the name of Bush's game. What did Bush call it the other day??? "Bait and switch?" :biggrin:

Officer of Engineers
28 Oct 04,, 01:28
People,

Back up.

The stuff was gone long before the Coalition reached it. If anyone was to blame, it was Saddam, not the Bush Admin.

For current security measures, the Iraqi government is responsible for it up to and including requesting Coalition assistance. Until that request comes through lima charley, shifting the blame ain't the game. It's accepting responsibility and the Iraqis are the ones responsible. That's the way the military works. I don't shift blame nor responsibility when it's my authority and my job.

As for the Guardsmen, with much sorrow to the Guardsmen, the Iraqi PM is off his rockers. The Guardsmen let their guard down.

smilingassassin
28 Oct 04,, 01:48
It's so funny to watch the leftwing freaks to supposedly confirm their already predetermined opinions on the war. NBC had an in-bed with the troops, they didn't see any explosives, end of story. When are you guys gonna give it up?
Selective common sence....

Luldapull, take a pill or something, your going to burst a blood vein for some stupid conspiracy theory.

smilingassassin
28 Oct 04,, 01:53
I find it convenient that now the the "Iraqi Government" is in place, when something goes wrong we can balme them for it.

If indeed it's true that it would be impossible for the US to secure all of the weapons and explosives in Iraq, why not just say that? Why skirt around the issue and point the finger of blame?

.....because, those on the left would like to blame every single thing on Bush even the stuff Clinton is guilty of. They constantly use past actions with Saddam as a basis for how we should act now, and yet those past actions are wrong, and somehow get pinned on G.W. Bush. The left simply deny that we are in a new kind of war, one that cannot rely on the presedence of past conflicts or dealings.

smilingassassin
28 Oct 04,, 02:13
Read up, its nothing more than a desperate attempt by the Democrats to come up with an October surprize, which is backfiring.

http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/2004/10/rdx-problem-resolves-itself-little.html

The RDX Problem Resolves Itself

A little more data for the RDX pot. Whatever the MSNBC embeds saw with the 101st, the 3ID which preceded them saw more. It searched Al Qa Qaa and found suspicious material Instapundit finds this reference in CBS via the Captain's Quarters.

April 4, 2003. CBS News National Security Correspondent David Martin reports that the hunt for weapons of mass destruction continues at sites where the U.S. thought chemicals weapons might be hidden. "And although there are no reports of actual weapons being found, there are constant finds of suspicious material," Martin said. "It obviously will take laboratory testing to find out exactly what that powder is." U.S. troops found thousands of boxes of white powder, nerve agent antidote and Arabic documents on how to engage in chemical warfare at an industrial site south of Baghdad. But a senior U.S. official familiar with initial testing said the materials were believed to be explosives. Col. John Peabody, engineer brigade commander of the 3rd Infantry Division, said the materials were found Friday at the Latifiyah industrial complex just south of Baghdad.

... The facility had been identified by the International Atomic Energy Agency as a suspected chemical, biological and nuclear weapons site. U.N. inspectors visited the plant at least nine times, including as recently as Feb. 18. The facility is part of a larger complex known as the Latifiyah Explosives and Ammunition Plant al Qa Qaa. The senior U.S. official, based in Washington and speaking on condition of anonymity, said the material was under further study. The site is enormous and U.S. troops are still investigating it for potential weapons of mass destruction, the official said. "Initial reports are that the material is probably just explosives, but we're still going through the place," the official said. Peabody said troops found thousands of boxes, each of which contained three vials of white powder, together with documents written in Arabic that dealt with how to engage in chemical warfare.

The contemporaneous CBS report, written before anyone knew al Qa Qaa would be a big deal, establishes two important things. The first is that 3ID knew it was looking through an IAEA inspection site. The second was that the site had shown unmistakable signs of tampering before the arrival of US troops. "Peabody said troops found thousands of boxes, each of which contained three vials of white powder, together with documents written in Arabic that dealt with how to engage in chemical warfare." Now presumably those thousands of boxes were not all packaged and labeled with chemical warfare instructions under IAEA supervision, so the inescapable conclusion is that a fairly large and organized type of activity had been under way in Al Qa Qaa for some time. It is important to reiterate that these are contemporaneous CBS reports which were filed no with foreknowledge of the political controversy to come.

Michael Totten wonders why "there is no mention of 380 tons of HDX and RDX". Perhaps the reason the RDX isn't mentioned can be found via a link through Josh Marshall, quoting NBC's Jim Miklaszewski. (Hat tip reader Trebbers in Comments)

Following up on that story from last night, military officials tell NBC News that on April 10, 2003, when the Second Brigade of the 101st Airborne entered the Al QaQaa weapons facility, south of Baghdad, that those troops were actually on their way to Baghdad, that they were not actively involved in the search for any weapons, including the high explosives, HMX and RDX. The troops did observe stock piles of conventional weapons but no HMX or RDX. And because the Al Qaqaa facility is so huge, it's not clear that those troops from the 101st were actually anywhere near the bunkers that reportedly contained the HMX and RDX. Three months earlier, during an inspection of the Al Qaqaa compound, the International Atomic Energy Agency secured and sealed 350 metric tons of HMX and RDX. Then in March, shortly before the war began, the I.A.E.A. conducted another inspection and found that the HMX stockpile was still intact and still under seal. But inspectors were unable to inspect the RDX stockpile and could not verify that the RDX was still at the compound.

Here we discover the rather important fact that the UN inspectors hadn't actually seen the RDX in their final inspections. They just assumed it was there because the seals were intact. So let's put it all together. The UN inspectors conduct their final inspection before OIF without actually having seen the RDX. The 3ID reach the site on April 4, 2003, know they are looking at an IAEA site and find thousands of white boxes which they suspect may be chemical weapons. The boxes are labeled with chemical warfare instructions. On April 10, the Second Brigade of 101st Airborne arrives with press embeds. They look around but press on with their main combat mission. From this the NYT comes to the conclusion that the RDX was lost after the US assumed custody of the site. It is worthwhile to reiterate the NYT's key assertions. In their article of October 25, the Times said:

The huge facility, called Al Qaqaa, was supposed to be under American military control but is now a no man's land, still picked over by looters as recently as Sunday. United Nations weapons inspectors had monitored the explosives for many years, but White House and Pentagon officials acknowledge that the explosives vanished sometime after the American-led invasion last year.

It turned out that White House and Pentagon officials had acknowledged no such thing. The next day, the NYT reported:

White House officials reasserted yesterday that 380 tons of powerful explosives may have disappeared from a vast Iraqi military complex while Saddam Hussein controlled Iraq, saying a brigade of American soldiers did not find the explosives when they visited the complex on April 10, 2003, the day after Baghdad fell. But the unit's commander said in an interview yesterday that his troops had not searched the facility and had merely stopped there for the night on their way to Baghdad. The commander, Col. Joseph Anderson, of the Second Brigade of the Army's 101st Airborne Division, said he did not learn until this week that the site, known as Al Qaqaa, was considered highly sensitive, or that international inspectors had visited there shortly before the war began in 2003 to inspect explosives that they had tagged during a decade of monitoring.

In the light of the unearthed contemporaneous CBS report, the NYT's use of an interview with the Col. Anderson is totally worthless. They interviewed the wrong unit commander. It was a 3ID outfit that searched the place with the intent of discovering dangerous materials nearly six days before. The 101st had no such mission. Moreover, the NYT's innuendo that "the huge facility, called Al Qaqaa, was supposed to be under American military control but is now a no man's land, still picked over by looters as recently as Sunday. United Nations weapons inspectors had monitored the explosives for many years ..." suggests a well-manicured facility that had been run to seed by knuckle-dragging American incompetence after faithful care by the IAEA. It totally ignores the disorderly condition in which 3ID found it, where, if the NYT correspondents had been present, they might have taken home their own boxes "with three vials of white powder, together with documents in Arabic that dealt with how to engage in chemical warfare" -- surely a sign it was untampered with, unless the NYT wishes to assert the contrary and thereby destroy their own case.

Incidentally, the condition of Al Qa Qaa is yet more indirect proof of the redeployment of war materiel which took place under the cover of UN obstruction, most notably by barring 4ID from attacking south through Turkey into the Sunni Triangle, which was the subject of Belmont Club's War Plan Orange.

lulldapull
28 Oct 04,, 03:45
It's so funny to watch the leftwing freaks to supposedly confirm their already predetermined opinions on the war. NBC had an in-bed with the troops, they didn't see any explosives, end of story. When are you guys gonna give it up?
Selective common sence....

Luldapull, take a pill or something, your going to burst a blood vein for some stupid conspiracy theory.

Yeah I already have! Its the thick purple one on my Dick! :biggrin:
Now getting back to the topic; let me tell you very honestly that in a matter of a few days it wouldn't matter who cut the cheese in the stinker.....

The best and my favourite part is that with each pasing day we hold this piece of shiit administration and specially this bible bigot and his God-damn ******y ass Neocon goons accountable for this total disaster that is unfolding in iraq! Pretty soon all these Buffoons wil be God-damn thrown out, whether you like it or not! Whether this is a new kind of a war or old! Dirty or guerilla! The problem is that this Bush has gotten us involved in a war we can't win! :) Dude we can't win in Iraq! money is running out, and we ( yes the Americans come first! )...We need to spend that 1 billion per week on us right here in the U.S., which is fast becoming a god-damn third world country, not killing some 2 cent naked hungry A-raanb in monkey land!! What part of that you don't understand??? :mad:

you know it and so do I! bush will lose pal! You better believe it!

P.S. I'll buy you a cheap beer on Nov 8th! :) With my god-damn work situation, thats about all I can afford! i bet the entire engineering/ manufacturing community as well as the tech sector will heave a sigh of relief as soon as this most incompetent of all aministrations gets booted out, and we get our god-damn jobs back!

Also FAS.org and global Security are both standing by this missing explosives report:

Huge Cache of Explosives Vanished From Site in Iraq
By James Glanz, William J. Broad and David E. Sanger
New York Times
October 25, 2004

The Iraqi interim government has warned the United States and international nuclear inspectors that nearly 380 tons of powerful conventional explosives - used to demolish buildings, make missile warheads and detonate nuclear weapons - are missing from one of Iraq's most sensitive former military installations. The huge facility, called Al Qaqaa, was supposed to be under American military control but is now a no man's land, still picked over by looters as recently as Sunday. United Nations weapons inspectors had monitored the explosives for many years, but White House and Pentagon officials acknowledge that the explosives vanished sometime after the American-led invasion last year.

The White House said President Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, was informed within the past month that the explosives were missing. It is unclear whether President Bush was informed. American officials have never publicly announced the disappearance, but beginning last week they answered questions about it posed by The New York Times and the CBS News program "60 Minutes." Administration officials said Sunday that the Iraq Survey Group, the C.I.A. task force that searched for unconventional weapons, has been ordered to investigate the disappearance of the explosives. American weapons experts say their immediate concern is that the explosives could be used in major bombing attacks against American or Iraqi forces: the explosives, mainly HMX and RDX, could produce bombs strong enough to shatter airplanes or tear apart buildings.

The bomb that brought down Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988 used less than a pound of the same type of material, and larger amounts were apparently used in the bombing of a housing complex in November 2003 in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and the blasts in a Moscow apartment complex in September 1999 that killed nearly 300 people. The explosives could also be used to trigger a nuclear weapon, which was why international nuclear inspectors had kept a watch on the material, and even sealed and locked some of it. The other components of an atom bomb - the design and the radioactive fuel - are more difficult to obtain. "This is a high explosives risk, but not necessarily a proliferation risk," one senior Bush administration official said.

The International Atomic Energy Agency publicly warned about the danger of these explosives before the war, and after the invasion it specifically told United States officials about the need to keep the explosives secured, European diplomats said in interviews last week. Administration officials say they cannot explain why the explosives were not safeguarded, beyond the fact that the occupation force was overwhelmed by the amount of munitions they found throughout the country. A Pentagon spokesman, Lawrence Di Rita, said Sunday evening that Saddam Hussein's government "stored weapons in mosques, schools, hospitals and countless other locations," and that the allied forces "have discovered and destroyed perhaps thousands of tons of ordnance of all types." A senior military official noted that HMX and RDX were "available around the world" and not on the nuclear nonproliferation list, even though they are used in the nuclear warheads of many nations.

The Qaqaa facility, about 30 miles south of Baghdad, was well known to American intelligence officials: Mr. Hussein made conventional warheads at the site, and the I.A.E.A. dismantled parts of his nuclear program there in the early 1990's after the Persian Gulf war in 1991. In the prelude to the 2003 invasion, Mr. Bush cited a number of other "dual use" items - including tubes that the administration contended could be converted to use for the nuclear program - as a justification for invading Iraq. After the invasion, when widespread looting began in Iraq, the international weapons experts grew concerned that the Qaqaa stockpile could fall into unfriendly hands. In May, an internal I.A.E.A. memorandum warned that terrorists might be helping "themselves to the greatest explosives bonanza in history."

Earlier this month, in a letter to the I.A.E.A. in Vienna, a senior official from Iraq's Ministry of Science and Technology wrote that the stockpile disappeared after early April 2003 because of "the theft and looting of the governmental installations due to lack of security." In an interview with The Times and "60 Minutes" in Baghdad, the minister of science and technology, Rashad M. Omar, confirmed the facts described in the letter. "Yes, they are missing," Dr. Omar said. "We don't know what happened." The I.A.E.A. says it also does not know, and has reported that machine tools that can be used for either nuclear or non-nuclear purposes have also been looted. Dr. Omar said that after the American-led invasion, the sites containing the explosives were under the control of the Coalition Provisional Authority, an American-led entity that was the highest civilian authority in Iraq until it handed sovereignty of the country over to the interim government on June 28. "After the collapse of the regime, our liberation, everything was under the coalition forces, under their control," Dr. Omar said. "So probably they can answer this question, what happened to the materials."

Officials in Washington said they had no answers to that question. One senior official noted that the Qaqaa complex where the explosives were stored was listed as a "medium priority" site on the Central Intelligence Agency's list of more than 500 sites that needed to be searched and secured during the invasion. "Should we have gone there? Definitely," said one senior administration official. In the chaos that followed the invasion, however, many of those sites, even some considered a higher priority, were never secured.

A No Man's Land

Seeing the ruined bunkers at the vast Qaqaa complex today, it is hard to recall that just two years ago it was part of Saddam Hussein's secret military complex. The bunkers are so large that they are reminiscent of pyramids, though with rounded edges and the tops chopped off. Several are blackened and eviscerated as a result of American bombing. Smokestacks rise in the distance. Today, Al Qaqaa has become a wasteland generally avoided even by the marines in charge of northern Babil Province. Headless bodies are found there. An ammunition dump has been looted, and on Sunday an Iraqi employee of The New York Times who made a furtive visit to the site saw looters tearing out metal fixtures. Bare pipes within the darkened interior of one of the buildings were a tangled mess, zigzagging along charred walls. Someone fired a shot, probably to frighten the visitors off. "It's like Mars on Earth," said Maj. Dan Whisnant, an intelligence officer for the Second Battalion, 24th Marine Regiment. "It would take probably 10 battalions 10 years to clear that out."

Mr. Hussein's engineers acquired HMX and RDX when they embarked on a crash effort to build an atomic bomb in the late 1980's. It did not go smoothly. In 1989, a huge blast ripped through Al Qaqaa, the boom reportedly heard hundreds of miles away. The explosion, it was later determined, occurred when a stockpile of the high explosives ignited. After the Persian Gulf war in 1991, the United Nations discovered Iraq's clandestine effort and put the United Nations arms agency in charge of Al Qaqaa's huge stockpile. Weapon inspectors determined that Iraq had bought the explosives from France, China and Yugoslavia, a European diplomat said. None of the explosives were destroyed, arms experts familiar with the decision recalled, because Iraq argued that it should be allowed to keep them for eventual use in mining and civilian construction. But Al Qaqaa was still under the authority of the Military Industrial Council, which ran Iraq's sensitive weapons programs and was led for a time by Hussein Kamel, Mr. Hussein's son-in-law. He defected to the West, then returned to Iraq and was immediately killed.

In 1996, the United Nations hauled away some of the HMX and used it to blow up Al Hakam, a vast Iraqi factory for making germ weapons. The Qaqaa stockpile went unmonitored from late 1998, when United Nations inspectors left Iraq, to late 2002, when they came back. Upon their return, the inspectors discovered that about 35 tons of HMX were missing. The Iraqis said they had used the explosive mainly in civilian programs. The remaining stockpile was no secret. Dr. Mohamed ElBaradei, the director general of the arms agency, frequently talked about it publicly as he investigated - in late 2002 and early 2003 - the Bush administration's claims that Iraq was secretly renewing its pursuit of nuclear arms. He ordered his weapons inspectors to conduct an inventory, and publicly reported their findings to the Security Council on Jan. 9, 2003.

During the following weeks, the I.A.E.A. repeatedly drew public attention to the explosives. In New York on Feb. 14, nine days after Secretary of State Colin L. Powell presented his arms case to the Security Council, Dr. ElBaradei reported that the agency had found no sign of new atom endeavors but "has continued to investigate the relocation and consumption of the high explosive HMX."

A European diplomat reported that Jacques Baute, head of the arms agency's Iraq nuclear inspection team, warned officials at the United States mission in Vienna about the danger of the nuclear sites and materials once under I.A.E.A. supervision, including Al Qaqaa. But apparently, little was done. A senior Bush administration official said that during the initial race to Baghdad, American forces "went through the bunkers, but saw no materials bearing the I.A.E.A. seal." It is unclear whether troops ever returned. By late 2003, diplomats said, arms agency experts had obtained commercial satellite photos of Al Qaqaa showing that two of roughly 10 bunkers that contained HMX appeared to have been leveled by titanic blasts, apparently during the war. They presumed some of the HMX had exploded, but that is unclear.

Other HMX bunkers were untouched. Some were damaged but not devastated. I.A.E.A. experts say they assume that just before the invasion the Iraqis followed their standard practice of moving crucial explosives out of buildings, so they would not be tempting targets. If so, the experts say, the Iraqi must have broken seals from the arms agency on bunker doors and moved most of the HMX to nearby fields, where it would have been lightly camouflaged - and ripe for looting.

But the Bush administration would not allow the agency back into the country to verify the status of the stockpile. In May 2004, Iraqi officials say in interviews, they warned L. Paul Bremer III, the American head of the occupation authority, that Al Qaqaa had probably been looted. It is unclear if that warning was passed anywhere. Efforts to reach Mr. Bremer by telephone were unsuccessful.

But by the spring of 2004, the Americans were preoccupied with the transfer of authority to Iraq, and the insurgency was gaining strength. "It's not an excuse," said one senior administration official. "But a lot of things went by the boards." Early this month, Dr. ElBaradei put public pressure on the interim Iraqi government to start the process of accounting for nuclear-related materials still ostensibly under I.A.E.A. supervision, including the Qaqaa stockpile. "Iraq is obliged," he wrote to the president of the Security Council on Oct. 1, "to declare semiannually changes that have occurred or are foreseen." The agency, Dr. ElBaradei added pointedly, "has received no such notifications or declarations from any state since the agency's inspectors were withdrawn from Iraq in March 2003."

A Lost Stockpile

Two weeks ago, on Oct. 10, Dr. Mohammed J. Abbas of the Iraqi Ministry of Science and Technology wrote a letter to the I.A.E.A. to say the Qaqaa stockpile had been lost. He added that his ministry had judged that an "urgent updating of the registered materials is required." A chart in his letter listed 341.7 metric tons, about 377 American tons, of HMX, RDX and PETN as missing.

The explosives missing from Al Qaqaa are the strongest and fastest in common use by militaries around the globe. The Iraqi letter identified the vanished stockpile as containing 194.7 metric tons of HMX, which stands for "high melting point explosive," 141.2 metric tons of RDX, which stands for "rapid detonation explosive," among other designations, and 5.8 metric tons of PETN, which stands for "pentaerythritol tetranitrate." The total is roughly 340 metric tons or nearly 380 American tons.

Five days later, on Oct. 15, European diplomats said, the arms agency wrote the United States mission in Vienna to forward the Iraqi letter and ask that the American authorities inform the international coalition in Iraq of the missing explosives. Dr. ElBaradei, a European diplomat said, is "extremely concerned" about the potentially "devastating consequences" of the vanished stockpile.

Its fate remains unknown. Glenn Earhart, manager of an Army Corps of Engineers program in Huntsville, Ala., that is in charge of rounding up and destroying lost Iraqi munitions, said he and his colleagues knew nothing of the whereabouts of the Qaqaa stockpile. Administration officials say Iraq was awash in munitions, including other stockpiles of exotic explosives. "The only reason this stockpile was under seal," said one senior administration official, "is because it was located at Al Qaqaa," where nuclear work had gone on years ago.

As a measure of the size of the stockpile, one large truck can carry about 10 tons, meaning that the missing explosives could fill a fleet of almost 40 trucks. By weight, these explosives pack far more destructive power than TNT, so armies often use them in shells, bombs, mines, mortars and many types of conventional ordinance. "HMX and RDX have a lot of shattering power," said Dr. Van Romero, vice president for research at the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, or New Mexico Tech, which specializes in explosives. "Getting a large amount is difficult," he added, because most nations carefully regulate who can buy such explosives, though civilian experts can sometimes get licenses to use them for demolition and mining.

An Immediate Danger

A special property of HMX and RDX lends them to smuggling and terrorism, experts said. While violently energetic when detonated, they are insensitive to shock and physical abuse during handling and transport because of their chemical stability. A hammer blow does nothing. It takes a detonator, like a blasting cap, to release the stored energy.

Experts said the insensitivity made them safer to transport than the millions of unexploded shells, mines and pieces of live ammunition that litter Iraq. And its benign appearance makes it easy to disguise as harmless goods, easily slipped across borders. "The immediate danger" of the lost stockpile, said an expert who recently led a team that searched Iraq for deadly arms, "is its potential use with insurgents in very small and powerful explosive devices. The other danger is that it can easily move into the terrorist web across the Middle East."

More worrisome to the I.A.E.A. - and to some in Washington - is that HMX and RDX are used in standard nuclear weapons design. In a nuclear implosion weapon, the explosives crush a hollow sphere of uranium or plutonium into a critical mass, initiating the nuclear explosion. A crude implosion device - like the one that the United States tested in 1945 in the New Mexican desert and then dropped on Nagasaki, Japan - needs about a ton of high explosive to crush the core and start the chain reaction.

lulldapull
28 Oct 04,, 03:59
AaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaHAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaa

Lying pieces of **** Bush and Cheney baastards should be publicly lunched for this sort of treason! :mad: :mad: :mad:

LATEST BUSH EXCUSE ON WEAPONS DUMP EVAPORATES

George Bush's continuing efforts to avoid responsibility for failing to secure 380 tons of highly dangerous explosives in Iraq just took another blow. The reporter who was actually traveling with the 101st Airborne in the report cited by the Bush campaign has clarified that the unit was not there to secure the massive weapons complex and it was merely a 'pit stop' on their way to Baghdad.

Try as it might, the Bush spin machine can not change the truth: the President is responsible for his catastrophic failures in Iraq and needs to personally address this issue.

MSNBC, 10/26/04 (Transcript):

Amy Robach: And it's still unclear exactly when those explosives disappeared. Here to help shed some light on that question is Lai Ling. She was part of an NBC news crew that traveled to that facility with the 101st Airborne Division back in April of 2003. Lai Ling, can you set the stage for us? What was the situation like when you went into the area?

Lai Ling Jew: When we went into the area, we were actually leaving Karbala and we were initially heading to Baghdad with the 101st Airborne, Second Brigade. The situation in Baghdad, the Third Infantry Division had taken over Baghdad and so they were trying to carve up the area that the 101st Airborne Division would be in charge of. As a result, they had trouble figuring out who was going to take up what piece of Baghdad. They sent us over to this area in Iskanderia. We didn't know it as the Qaqaa facility at that point but when they did bring us over there we stayed there for quite a while. We stayed overnight, almost 24 hours. And we walked around, we saw the bunkers that had been bombed, and that exposed all of the ordinances that just lied dormant on the desert.

AR: Was there a search at all underway or did a search ensue for explosives once you got there during that 24-hour period?

LLJ: No. There wasn't a search. The mission that the brigade had was to get to Baghdad. That was more of a pit stop there for us. And, you know, the searching, I mean certainly some of the soldiers head off on their own, looked through the bunkers just to look at the vast amount of ordnance lying around. But as far as we could tell, there was no move to

secure the weapons, nothing to keep looters away. But there was – at that point the roads were shut off. So it would have been very difficult, I believe, for the looters to get there.

AR: And there was no talk of securing the area after you left. There was no discussion of that?

LLJ: Not for the 101st Airborne, Second Brigade. They were -- once they were in Baghdad, it was all about Baghdad, you know, and then they ended up moving north to Mosul. Once we left the area, that was the last that the brigade had anything to do with the area.

AR: Well, Lai Ling Jew, thank you so much for shedding some light into that situation. We appreciate it.

LLJ: Thank you.

lulldapull
28 Oct 04,, 04:07
The problem is that this bible bigot God-damn lying *** wont answer these questions! What does he care if some poor blue colar guy dies in Iraq??? :mad: He could give a damn cuz he' s a coward who hid his quivering ass in texas with Daddy throughout the 60's nd 70's! :biggrin: :biggrin: !! only cowards go thru this baptism type ******y rituals like he did with that Billy Graham or that mulla from hell god damn Pat Robertson ******! The guy has zero credibility to be our commander in chief!:mad:


BREAK THE SILENCE:
Key Questions President Bush Must Answer on the Missing Explosives in Iraq:

1. Why did the Administration assign such a low priority to securing explosives, munitions and weapons in Iraq?

2. The Bush Administration says that it ordered the Iraq Survey Group to look into what happened to the 380 tons of missing explosives (during October 25 briefing, Scott McClellan said it four times) but the head of the unit, Charles Duelfer, says he has not received any orders to do so. What are the facts?

3. What is the chronology of action taken by the Bush Administration after being informed that the explosives had gone missing? Who knew what when? When was the civilian leadership at the Pentagon told about the missing explosives? When did Secretary Rumsfeld learn that the explosives had gone missing? When was the President’s National Security Council informed? When National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice briefed on this? When was the President told? And what action was taken?

4. Why did the Bush Administration deny the International Atomic Energy Agency’s request to back into Iraq to verify the status of the stockpile?

5. What action did Paul Bremer take after reportedly being warned in May 2004 that the explosives had gone missing?

6. The 380 tons of missing explosives are the tip of the iceberg. Duelfer reportedly said he wasn’t concerned about al Qaqaa because that Iraq is awash in hundreds of thousands of tons of explosives. Is there an estimate of the total amount of munitions, weapons and explosives that have gone missing in Iraq?

7. Since 2003, how many attacks on our troops in Iraq or terrorist bombings in Iraq, Egypt or elsewhere have been carried out using HMX, RDX or PETN – the same kind of explosive that went missing from al Qaqaa?

Ray
28 Oct 04,, 08:59
It is not a Democrats' Last Stand.

It is for real.

The US Invasion force ahd Sensitive Site Monitoring Teams.

It is a FAILURE.

One must be honest to admit rather than dodge failures.

smilingassassin
28 Oct 04,, 12:56
Lull seems to be trolling......Once again so you understand, They were missing when the Americans got there.

smilingassassin
28 Oct 04,, 13:03
The Pentagon reported a few days ago that the totals for Munitions secured so far are 400,000 tons of munitions captured with all but 160,000 tons of it destroyed so far.

In other words, the 380 tons of missing stuff is less than .1% of the munitions captured by the coalition.

Funny how the focus is on 380 tons of explosives that is commonly used to detonate nuclear devices.... that saddam never had of course.

Ray
28 Oct 04,, 14:22
I have handled enough explosives in my life.

I am not concerned with the quantity. I am interested in the quality. WMX and RDX are real bad stuff.

They can bring own buildings! Big buildings.

There is talk about the AQ doing a second WTC. These would be very useful to those *******s. Very useful.

That's what is scary.

lulldapull
28 Oct 04,, 14:23
The Pentagon reported a few days ago that the totals for Munitions secured so far are 400,000 tons of munitions captured with all but 160,000 tons of it destroyed so far.

In other words, the 380 tons of missing stuff is less than .1% of the munitions captured by the coalition.

Funny how the focus is on 380 tons of explosives that is commonly used to detonate nuclear devices.... that saddam never had of course.


Buddy no matter which way you categorize the missing 400 tons! That much quantity of explosives is enough to last your A-raanb buddies a goddamn lifetime!

We are not talking about the how much they have secured out of how much was in Saddams army? We are talking explicitly about the 400 tons that are now missing and some 2 cent militia is now claiming they stole it right from underneath U.S. And Iraqi soldiers noses! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Now they will use this to kill thousands of innocent civilians and our soldiers! :mad:

This baastard Bush wil not admit it anything even if his pathetic bigoted (in denial life) depended on it. :mad:

I can't believe bush has the audacity to even show his piece of shiit neanderthal face in public anymore! :mad:

lulldapull
28 Oct 04,, 14:27
I have handled enough explosives in my life.

I am not concerned with the quantity. I am interested in the quality. WMX and RDX are real bad stuff.

They can bring own buildings! Big buildings.

There is talk about the AQ doing a second WTC. These would be very useful to those *******s. Very useful.

That's what is scary.


Abaay yaar Ray it all over the news here! Now some jahil gaandoo militia in Iraq is saying that they took those explosives! And took way more than 400 tons! :mad:

I swear to God we have never seen a more incompetent bunch of idiots in the White House! Never in this countries history! The have disgraced us! Our military, and now our governnment! :mad:

Look at the latest! now this deliberate controversy continues:

Uncertainty Remains Over Iraqi Explosives


There appear to be two periods of time when the 377 tons of high explosives missing from a military facility in Iraq could have been moved or stolen - in the weeks before the U.S. invasion began or several weeks in April after U.S. troops overran the Al-Qaqaa base and moved on to Baghdad.

Iraqi officials told the International Atomic Energy Agency two weeks ago that the explosives vanished as a result of "theft and looting ... due to lack of security."

The ministry's letter said the explosives were stolen sometime after coalition forces took control of Baghdad on April 9, 2003. But they have not been able to explain how they know when the explosives were removed from bunkers sealed by the IAEA as part of the weapons inspection program.

The disappearance of the explosives has raised questions about why the United States didn't do more to secure the facility and failed to allow full international inspections to resume after the invasion. It has also become an issue in the U.S. presidential campaign.

The Kerry campaign called the disappearance the latest in a "tragic series of blunders" by the Bush administration in Iraq. The White House has issued a statement saying that the matter is under investigation and the explosives may have been moved before the invasion.

IAEA Inspectors report that they checked the seals placed on the bunker storing stockpiles of HMX and RDX kept at al-Qaqaa on March 9. There have been reports that another IAEA team checked the site on March 15, but that has yet to be confirmed.

Until March 20, when coalition forces attacked Iraq, the explosives could have been moved to another location without risk of being intercepted by U.S. air or ground forces. U.S. attack jets patrolled Iraq's major highways after March 19 in search of military targets to destroy.

Iraqi forces were still at the al-Qaqaa complex on April 3 when Task Force 3-15 of the 2nd Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division arrived, said Col. Dave Perkins, who commanded the brigade.

Troops reported seeing the gates open and several hundred troops were defending the site, Perkins said Wednesday.

The infantrymen's mission was to destroy any Iraqi troops in the area and, after defeating the forces in the facility, the task force moved north on April 6 to prepare for the assault on Baghdad. The 2nd Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division was the first U.S. unit to enter central Baghdad on April 7.

U.S. troops passed through more than a dozen Iraqi military facilities on the march from the Kuwait border to Baghdad, and while cursory checks were made for suspected weapons of mass destruction, large ammunition, weapons and explosives dumps were left unguarded. Commanders reported the coordinates of these sites to higher headquarters so rearguard troops could take care of them.

Perkins, now a staff officer at the Pentagon, said that while some looting at the site had taken place, a large-scale operation to remove the explosives using multi-ton trucks would have almost certainly have been detected.

There were virtually no civilian vehicles on the roads in late March and early April. U.S. military police patrolled the major roads, which U.S. forces used extensively to resupply the troops in Baghdad.

Perkins described Iraq as littered with weapons, and the Qaqaa base was one munitions depot among many. Many other depots his forces found had been cleaned out, with weapons scattered, presumably so they wouldn't be destroyed by airstrikes.

"We came upon a lot of these sites," he said. "What we found all the way up was dispersed munitions, dispersed weapons."

On April 10, the 2nd Brigade of the 101st Airborne Division arrived at the perimeter of al-Qaqaa, but did not enter it, said Lt. Col. Fred Wellman, deputy public affairs officer for the unit. After 24 hours, the unit moved on, without inspecting the bunkers sealed by the IAEA.

The first team with orders to search the facility for dangerous weapons arrived on May 8 to inspect the Latifiyah Phosgene Facility, which was part of the al-Qaqaa complex, Pentagon officials said. Another team inspected a missile and rocket facility also located at al-Qaqaa on May 11.

The ammunition storage areas were not inspected until May 27, when the team reported widespread looting of the entire complex. This team reported that the IAEA seals and the high explosives were missing.

Throughout Iraq, civilians looted military facilities for anything of potential value between April 11 and May 27, when there were not enough U.S. troops on the ground to stop them.

High explosives, such as HMX and RDX, do not explode when exposed to flame, rather burn at a high temperature, which makes them useful for cooking.

lulldapull
28 Oct 04,, 14:43
Bush should fire Rumsfeld immediately if he has even a shred of accountability and decency in him! All them Neocon Baastards should all be lined up and God-damn shot, for the worst incompetence ever witnessed! This is the truth about where these explosives are:

Armed Group Claims to Have Iraq Explosives

07:55 AM EST October 28, 2004
The Associated Press


BAGHDAD, Iraq
An armed group claimed in a video Thursday to have obtained a large amount of explosives missing from a munitions depot facility in Iraq and threatened to use them against foreign troops.

A group calling itself Al-Islam's Army Brigades, Al-Karar Brigade, said it had coordinated with officers and soldiers of "the American intelligence" to obtain a "huge amount of the explosives that were in the al-Qaqaa facility."

The claim couldn't be independently verified. The speaker was surrounded by masked, armed men standing in front of a black banner with the group's name on it in the tape obtained by Associated Press Television News.

"We promise God and the Iraqi people that we will use it against the occupation forces and those who cooperate with them in the event of these forces threatening any Iraqi city," the man added.

Nearly 400 tons of conventional explosives have disappeared from the al-Qaqaa facility south of Baghdad, according to the International Atomic Energy Agency.

The U.N. agency's chief Mohamed ElBaradei, reported the disappearance to the U.N. Security Council on Monday, two weeks after Iraqi officials told the nuclear agency that 377 tons of explosives had vanished as a result of "theft and looting ... due to lack of security."

The disappearance of the explosives has become a huge campaign issue in the U.S. presidential election.

Meanwhile, Iraqi extremists in videotape aired Thursday by Al-Jazeera television showed what they said was a Polish woman hostage held in Iraq and demanded that Poland remove all its troops from Iraq.

The group, which called itself the Abu Bakr al-Siddiq Fundamentalist Brigades, said the woman, who was not identified, works with U.S. troops in Iraq. They also demanded the release of all Iraqi female prisoners.

Interior Ministry spokesman Col. Adnan Abdul Rahman said the woman was a longtime Iraq resident with Iraqi citizenship and was believed to have been abducted Wednesday night from her home in Baghdad. Abdul Rahman did not release her name.

A middle-aged woman with gray hair and dressed in a pink polka-dotted blouse sat in front of two masked gunmen, one of whom was pointing a pistol at her head. Her voice was not audible on the tape.

Al-Jazeera said the woman called on Polish troops to leave the country and for U.S. and Iraqi authorities to release all female detainees from the Abu Ghraib prison. The announcer said she had been "working in Iraq for a long time."

In Warsaw, a Polish Defense Ministry official said she apparently did not belong to any of the Polish military units. Polish television TVN24 reported that all Polish journalists in Iraq have been accounted for.

Ahmed al-Sheikh, Al-Jazeera's editor-in-chief, said the kidnappers did not mention a specific threat on the tape nor did they give a deadline for their demands to be met. He would not say when or how the station obtained the tape.

Poland commands some 6,000 troops from 15 nations - including some 2,400 from Poland - in the Babil, Karbala and Wasit provinces.

The armed group had also claimed responsibility in the September kidnapping of 10 Turkish hostages, who were released this month.

Late Wednesday, Al-Jazeera aired a video showing British aid worker Margaret Hassan, who again pleaded with Britain to withdraw its forces from Iraq even as some 800 British troops began deploying toward the Baghdad area. They were expected to relieve U.S. troops in the capital who are being preparing for a major assault on insurgent areas west and north of the capital.

Hassan, 59, who ran CARE International's operations in Iraq, has been the most high-profile of foreign hostages abducted in Iraq. No group has claimed responsibility in her abduction.

She also asked for the release of female Iraqi detainees and the closure of CARE's operations in Iraq.

A day earlier, a militant Web site ran a claim by the al-Qaida-linked group led by Jordanian terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi vowing to kill a 24-year-old ***anese hostage within 48 hours unless ***an withdrew its 500 troops from the country.

***an's Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi swiftly refused the demand, saying he wouldn't give in to terrorists.

Meanwhile, fighting continued on several fronts.

- U.S. aircraft bombed a suspected rebel safehouse Thursday in the insurgent stronghold of Fallujah, killing two people, the U.S. military and witnesses said.

- A car bomb exploded Thursday in southern Baghdad, killing a U.S. soldier and at least one Iraqi civilian, the U.S. military said.

- Insurgents clashed with U.S. forces Thursday in the restive central Iraq town of Ramadi, leaving two people dead, according to the U.S. military and hospital officials.

smilingassassin
28 Oct 04,, 14:55
Buddy no matter which way you categorize the missing 400 tons! That much quantity of explosives is enough to last your A-raanb buddies a goddamn lifetime!

400 tons that has been stated by an NBC inbed as gone when the troops got there, and still needs to be confirmed. Don't rush too headlong into the jaws of defeatism.

Lull, the record is broken, no amount of swearing on your part will change the facts.

Ray
28 Oct 04,, 15:08
Lull,

You do raise a laugh with your rather colourful language, especially of the sub continental type! :)

Julie
28 Oct 04,, 15:39
Lull,

You do raise a laugh with your rather colourful language, especially of the sub continental type! :)


LOL :biggrin: I love it! Lull needs to be Kerry's campaign manager....Kerry would win hands down! :biggrin:

lulldapull
28 Oct 04,, 15:43
400 tons that has been stated by an NBC inbed as gone when the troops got there, and still needs to be confirmed. Don't rush too headlong into the jaws of defeatism.

Lull, the record is broken, no amount of swearing on your part will change the facts.


:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

my friend the problem is that this ******ty ass "Coalition' of buffoons has been infiltrated at all levels! :) The Insurgents seem to even know when the 2 cent 'recruits" are going home! where they are training! and when they were due for a leave! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

this fundo group who stole these munitions and explosives are openly saying that the coalitions "intelligence" collaborated with them and allowed them to steal this explosive!

its a lost cause buddy. We should let it go! Better now than drag it to death like the bible bigots did in vietnam!

Kerry has the wisdom to see that its headed in the same direction. Someone ought to step forward and accept that we have made a mistake and that this entire operation has been a disaster.

Dude man even a God-damn blind man can see that the Iraqi's don't want us there. And with these daily killings it is very apparent that even those that were on the sidelines are now joining in.

1100 dead and 15000 seriously wounded and at least 100,000 iraqis dead is about enough of a cow boy adventure for Bush.

Its time we got out.

lulldapull
28 Oct 04,, 15:51
LOL :biggrin: I love it! Lull needs to be Kerry's campaign manager....Kerry would win hands down! :biggrin:


Alright I'll confess, I do work for the John Birch Society! :biggrin:

www.jbs.org/

Even though we have to contend regularly with bible bigots and old fashioned buffoons ( Ex-republicans) in our party, but for this crucial election we totally agree with Kerry! Our boys need to come home, and concentrate on the real threats facing our country such as China and North Korea, and the proliferation of WMDs! And not settling some personal agenda for some bible bigots and god-damn Neocons! :mad:

Lets keep our country for what it was founded for! And As our party chief says it:

The United States is a republic! Not a God-damn empire! :)

lets keep it that way. America and Americans come first! We need the money here in the U.S. right now more than iraq!

Julie
28 Oct 04,, 15:57
Alright I'll confess, I do work for the John Birch Society! :biggrin:

www.jbs.org/

Even though we have to contend regularly with bible bigots and old fashioned buffoons ( Ex-republicans) in our party, but for this crucial election we totally agree with Kerry! Our boys need to come home, and concentrate on the real threats facing our country such as China and North Korea, and the proliferation of WMDs! And not settling some personal agenda for some bible bigots and god-damn Neocons! :mad:

Lets keep our country for what it was founded for! And As our party chief says it:

The United States is a republic! Not a God-damn empire! :)

lets keep it that way. America and Americans come first! We need the money here in the U.S. right now more than iraq!


Hey, hey !! I agree with that! :biggrin: I perused that site you posted, what is your take on the Patriot Act as it pertains to the Constitution?

lulldapull
28 Oct 04,, 16:13
Hey, hey !! I agree with that! :biggrin: I perused that site you posted, what is your take on the Patriot Act as it pertains to the Constitution?


You know I am not gonna lie about my political dispositions, but I am on their payroll as a part time cheese pumper. :) but as far as putting a handle on where we stand on all them issues, this link ought to be a good gauge on where we John Birchers stand:

http://www.jbs.org/visitor/focus/index.htm

Join us and help us get the United States back from the grip of both these lying World federalists and their cronies!

Yeah your phone would be bugged1 Yeah your emails would be read, and yes you will come across ppl that would get involved in your life with no particular need to be ( on their part)....But hey, have you got something to hide??? Are you a terrorist??? Are ya plottin?? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

If not then you got nothing to worry about! Let em snoop on you. Thats what these World federalists are good at. But exposing them should be our goal. :)

Julie
28 Oct 04,, 16:31
LOL. Part-time cheese pumper. :biggrin: I just feel the Patriot Act should be reformed in that it is an extreme invasion on the privacy of innocent citizens.

lulldapull
28 Oct 04,, 17:15
LOL. Part-time cheese pumper. :biggrin: I just feel the Patriot Act should be reformed in that it is an extreme invasion on the privacy of innocent citizens.


Hey I admit there are instances in this "patriot act" which are offensive to ppl! But if they bug your phone or read your emails ( which they have been doing whether you like it or not, with or without this patriot act), then so be it! :)

look the only ppl who are complaining about this act are those that have something to hide! :)

Besides i don't want my friends or relatives to die in some terrorist attack. I don't thik anyone does. So let them do what they have to.

My problem is that this Bush ass-wipe got over excited and attacked Iraq when we didn't have to! And even then we all supported his sory ass when he blundered in there, and instead of doing a good job in planning it all ( when we should have left that country last year!)And now we are finding out that these guys turned out to be a bunch of lying jokers! :mad:

Now we are in a real shiit can, with no way out! For this Bush ought to be booted out for blatant incompetence and arrogance. I mean the guy is in denial of reality and Its really a God-damn shame! :mad:

Julie
28 Oct 04,, 21:54
Bush just has a "my way or the highway" to everything strategy. When the situation arises where war is at hand, allies are always a good thing to have watching your back. I don't feel we have that over there in Iraq, and it shows.

Officer of Engineers
29 Oct 04,, 02:06
Bush just has a "my way or the highway" to everything strategy. When the situation arises where war is at hand, allies are always a good thing to have watching your back. I don't feel we have that over there in Iraq, and it shows.

EXCUSE ME?!?!?! What's the Black Watch? A bunch of boyscouts on tour to Baghdad?

smilingassassin
29 Oct 04,, 02:29
Makes me cringe just thinking of the ass wooping the Black Watch will hand out to any insurgent dumb enough to pick a fight with em. the Ukrainians are alos in Iraq (at least I think they are still there) those magnificent *******s are also in Chechnia and Afganistan!

Funny no world support? The only major nations that I can think of that are not in Iraq are Franch, Germany and Russia. In Germany you can hear the crickets chirping, France is having its own problems retreiving French hostages in Iraq dispite its oposition to the war and Russia now seems to be changing its stripes.

Julie
29 Oct 04,, 02:47
EXCUSE ME?!?!?! What's the Black Watch? A bunch of boyscouts on tour to Baghdad?

I didn't say "Black Watch." I said watching your back, meaning, supportive of what you are doing, helping to rebuild Iraq while US is securing the area, humanitarian efforts, etc., etc.

Officer of Engineers
29 Oct 04,, 04:01
I didn't say "Black Watch." I said watching your back, meaning, supportive of what you are doing, helping to rebuild Iraq while US is securing the area, humanitarian efforts, etc., etc.

The British Regiment called the Black Watch is deploying a Battle Group from their AO in Basra to relieve American positions near Baghdad.

Kipruss
29 Oct 04,, 05:11
Makes me cringe just thinking of the ass wooping the Black Watch will hand out to any insurgent dumb enough to pick a fight with em. the Ukrainians are alos in Iraq (at least I think they are still there) those magnificent *******s are also in Chechnia and Afganistan!

Funny no world support? The only major nations that I can think of that are not in Iraq are Franch, Germany and Russia. In Germany you can hear the crickets chirping, France is having its own problems retreiving French hostages in Iraq dispite its oposition to the war and Russia now seems to be changing its stripes.
For a year NZ may have been considered by some to be supporting the US by having 60 or so army engineers deployed to Iraq. It would be wrong to assume that. We were supporting the UN's call for help for the rebuilding of Iraq. Other than the British and Polish, the amount of non-US, non-Iraqi troops in Iraq are relatively small. There is no ringing endorsement of the Bush war.

lulldapull
29 Oct 04,, 15:12
I think ppl here need to sit back and quit having delusional spasams about this ridiculous war.

Whats truly happeneing here is this gay and ill conceived notion that this 2 cent ass-wipe Bush has some how come upwith that 'fighting them over there', will produce results! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

God what a complete idiot! I swear to god there are mouzlums from all over this God-damn planet dying to get to iraq just so they could go near one of our soldiers and blow up their ass, so they can go meet their arabian maker or what ever the heck them god-damn 72 'Doe eyed virgin boys'! :mad:

We have just given these camel jockeys a God-damn purpose to Live! :mad:

Iraq has now officially become a gateway and a magnet for fundos to attain their 'martyrdom'! :mad: They are Goddamn flocking to Iraq like there is no tomorrow!

Even if we send another 100,000 troops there this bullshiit wont end. It has already become another vietnam. Ppl pouring in from Saudi Arabia Yemen, eqypt Jordan, practically the whole God-damn middle east just looking for any American to kill.

I hold this ass-hole Bush and these Neocon goons reponsible or this most absurd policy! Iraq is in total and absolute chaos! We have lost our chance, we should get the hell out!

Bush is a lying sack of shiit, God-damn douche bag. He should be impeached for lying to the American ppl for so long now :mad: And here's the truth and the video of them 400 tons of missing explosives!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6323933/

Julie
29 Oct 04,, 16:02
The British Regiment called the Black Watch is deploying a Battle Group from their AO in Basra to relieve American positions near Baghdad.

Only for a very limited of time according to a BBC news report that I read a few days ago. I will find that link and post it here as soon as I find it.

Officer of Engineers
29 Oct 04,, 23:16
Only for a very limited of time according to a BBC news report that I read a few days ago. I will find that link and post it here as soon as I find it.

Your allies are "meaning, supportive of what you are doing, helping to rebuild Iraq while US is securing the area, humanitarian efforts, etc., etc."

Do not blanket state the US is in this alone. Not by a long shot. Even France and Germany are helping by relieving US committements to NATO and the Balkans.

smilingassassin
30 Oct 04,, 01:18
The so called devide between the U.S and fondly named "axis of weasel" is not as great as many say it is (including myself in my rants). The real sticky point is the acctual choice to go into Iraq. Hell their were Canadians in American units for training purposes, but that dosn't mean we were for or against the war.

Confed999
31 Oct 04,, 00:22
There is no conformation the stuff was there since the 90s. It's been gone for a long time. If the US hadn't gone into Iraq the terrorists and a tyrant that has supported terrorism, trained terrorists at that site, stored WMD at that site (nerve agents were found there), would have access to 400,000 tons of explosives and 1,000,000 tons of munitions. No matter how much "looters" got, it's alot less than they had access too before we got there. Kerry jumped on a bandwagon that was shutting down, a bandwagon based on lies...

Julie
31 Oct 04,, 01:54
There is no conformation the stuff was there since the 90s. It's been gone for a long time. If the US hadn't gone into Iraq the terrorists and a tyrant that has supported terrorism, trained terrorists at that site, stored WMD at that site (nerve agents were found there), would have access to 400,000 tons of explosives and 1,000,000 tons of munitions. No matter how much "looters" got, it's alot less than they had access too before we got there. Kerry jumped on a bandwagon that was shutting down, a bandwagon based on lies...

A bandwagon of lies, lies, lies....Bullcrap! http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11543-2004Oct30.html

If tons of ammunitions have been destroyed where in the heck is all of them coming from killing our marines ??? I know you are going to say, across the borders? Well, then we need to be doing something with the borders then if that is the case. If not, I would sure hope you would stop using that word "lies" because our marines are dropping like flies !

I believe someone on here once told me to stop making the war political and let them win it. It really makes me want to suck a lemon when I read and article like that, then have to come here and read BS political excuses such as that. :mad:

Confed999
31 Oct 04,, 02:05
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11543-2004Oct30.html
Can't read it...

If tons of ammunitions have been destroyed where in the heck is all of them coming from killing our marines ??? I know you are going to say, across the borders?
There was over a million tons of stuff found. How much more was distributed and hidden before the war began. I mean, the UN gave Saddam over a decade to prepare for this. Some are crossing the border I would think, any ideas on how to protect that many miles of border?

I would sure hope you would stop using that word "lies" because our marines are dropping like flies !
It's because of these "lies" that the war isn't being fought like a war. How many could have been killed if they had all of it?

read BS political excuses such as that. :mad:
I feel about the same about your posts, but it doesn't make me mad, it makes me laugh.

Julie
31 Oct 04,, 02:09
It's so funny to watch the leftwing freaks to supposedly confirm their already predetermined opinions on the war. NBC had an in-bed with the troops, they didn't see any explosives, end of story. When are you guys gonna give it up?
Selective common sence....

Luldapull, take a pill or something, your going to burst a blood vein for some stupid conspiracy theory.

I wish you could post your opinions and omit the childish name-calling. It seems a military official is pubically disputing what you said above. Not that it is true, but I do have more faith in what he says than you.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9244-2004Oct29.html?nav=headlines

Julie
31 Oct 04,, 02:14
Can't read it....

Eight U.S. Marines Killed in Iraq

By Karl Vick and Fred Barbash
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, October 30, 2004; 6:20 PM

BAGHDAD, Oct. 30 -- Eight U.S. Marines were killed and nine others wounded Saturday in the Sunni Triangle area near Baghdad, the military announced.

It was one of the highest U.S. casualty figures in months in a single incident.


U.S. Army soldiers and a marine move an injured comrade shot by a sniper in Ramadi, Saturday. (Patrick Baz - AFP Photo)

The Marine casualties came when a car bomb went off next to a truck southwest of Baghdad, Maj. Clark Watson of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force told the Associated Press late Saturday.

The Marines are preparing for a decisive battle in the cities of Fallujah and Ramadi in Anbar Province, where the incident occurred and U.S. warplanes have been pounding Fallujah for weeks.

On Saturday, insurgents fired mortars at Marine positions outside Fallujah. U.S. troops responded with "the strongest artillery barrage in recent weeks," Marine spokesman 1st Lt. Lyle Gilbert told wire service reporters.

Later, a Marine Harrier jet bombed a guerrilla mortar position inside Fallujah, then strafed it with machine-gun fire, Gilbert said. He had no reports of insurgent casualties

Separately, news services reported that a car bomb exploded outside the offices of the Al-Arabiya television station in central Baghdad on Saturday, killing seven people and wounding 19.

The car bomb detonated near the Dubai-based network's building in the western Mansour neighborhood of the capital, Police Lt. Ziad Tareq told the Associated Press.

Network correspondent Najwa Qassem said the injured included technicians and drivers. Police said bystanders were also hurt in the blast.

A militant group claimed responsibility for the attack on Al-Arabiya's offices. In a statement posted Saturday on a Web site clearinghouse, the group identifying itself as the "1920 Brigades" said it brought down the building of the "Americanized spies speaking in Arabic tongue."

"We have threatened them to no avail that they are the mouthpiece of the American occupation in Iraq," the statement said. It warned of more attacks against this "treacherous network." It was impossible to verify the claim's authenticity.

Al-Arabiya's general manager, Abdulrahman al-Rashed, has been a vocal critic of Islamic militants and terror attacks.

Insurgents have controlled Fallujah since April, when Marines laid siege to the city, but an offensive was called off under pressure from the White House and L. Paul Bremer, the civilian administrator of the U.S.-led occupation authority then in charge in Iraq. Since then, military officials have described Fallujah as a hub of the Iraqi insurgency and the base for Abu Musab Zarqawi, a Jordanian militant who has proclaimed allegiance to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda organization.

While Zarqawi and other foreign militants have vowed to fight until U.S. and other occupying forces quit Iraq, local insurgents have been negotiating with Iraqi authorities to hand over control of the city peacefully. But Taha Ali, a press officer for interim Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, said Friday that the government was "losing patience" with the discussions.

Allawi favors the "peaceful solution," Ali said, but added that "this might be the last" chance to accept it.

On Friday in Fallujah, about 50 religious leaders met with members of the Shura Council of Mujaheddin, the self-appointed group that governs the city. The council closed the meeting to reporters, but a source familiar with the discussions said the group agreed to issue a fatwa, or religious order, calling for a holy war if U.S. forces pushed into Fallujah.

"War is very close," Abdullah Janabi, the head of the council, said while leading Friday prayers at the Hadhra Muhammadiya mosque, one of the most important in Fallujah.

"The government is responsible for the bloodshed in Fallujah," he said. "We have no choice -- it is either victory or martyrdom."

Confed999
31 Oct 04,, 02:16
Eight U.S. Marines Killed in Iraq
And that proves the explosives were still there? People get killed and hurt in war, no two ways about it.

Julie
31 Oct 04,, 02:44
And that proves the explosives were still there? People get killed and hurt in war, no two ways about it.

You are comfortable with the US casualty damage? Well, that's where we differ, because I am not by any means comfortable with it. Before Bush went to war, he stated in a meeting with the Defense Dept. that he didn't want to shoot a $10 million missile in a $10.00 tent, and hit a camel in the ass. It seems, they have alot more than tents and camels over there. I think Bush took the advice of someone who strongly underestimated this war.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9244-2004Oct29.html?nav=headlines

"According to the TV crew, the soldiers did not remove the explosives, and left the bunkers open and unguarded when they rejoined their unit. A source with firsthand knowledge of IAEA activities in Iraq said yesterday that the seal in the videotape "looks similar if not identical" to that used by the IAEA."

Confed999
31 Oct 04,, 03:14
You are comfortable with the US casualty damage?
I was sure it would be much, much, much higher...

Ray
31 Oct 04,, 05:25
that he didn't want to shoot a $10 million missile in a $10.00 tent, and hit a camel in the ass.
:)

Good sense of humour! One day I shall use this. I just can't get over my laughing.

smilingassassin
31 Oct 04,, 12:33
You are comfortable with the US casualty damage? Well, that's where we differ, because I am not by any means comfortable with it. Before Bush went to war, he stated in a meeting with the Defense Dept. that he didn't want to shoot a $10 million missile in a $10.00 tent, and hit a camel in the ass. [QUOTE=Julie]. I think Bush took the advice of someone who strongly underestimated this war.

To think you took offence to the word "hick", and now you use racist remarks against the Iraqis! He didn't want to shoot a $10 million missile in a $10.00 tent, and hit a camel in the ass? I honestly don't think you grasp the true realitys about war accept the killing part. Considering what the body count was expected to be I think your over reacting in reguards to casualty's, but seeing as you don't agree with the war its not surprizing.


"According to the TV crew, the soldiers did not remove the explosives, and left the bunkers open and unguarded when they rejoined their unit. A source with firsthand knowledge of IAEA activities in Iraq said yesterday that the seal in the videotape "looks similar if not identical" to that used by the IAEA."

Mohamed al baraday is seeking a third term as head of the IAEA, the Bush administration is apposed to this for various reasons, does't surprize me that this crap is being focused on just days prior to the election. Pure polotics...

You can post sorces that say the stuff is missing due to U.S. neglegence while others can post links to the contrary, at either rate the story is not over and its a pure political trump card anyway. I won't be surprized if this is all a scam.
NBC inbed's claim the stuff was gone before the troops got there, other troops claimed the stuff was removed and distroyed. There are too many contradicting story's to claim either side is right, and I susspect it will remain that way for some time, unless of course Kerry gets in, then it will suddenly all unravel.

The only proof will come in the form of a paper trail, no paper claiming the distruction and you have the same situation as Saddams Iraq, no paper proof that he got rid of his known WMD's. Digging up that paper work takes time.

Julie
31 Oct 04,, 15:20
To think you took offence to the word "hick", and now you use racist remarks against the Iraqis! He didn't want to shoot a $10 million missile in a $10.00 tent, and hit a camel in the ass? I honestly don't think you grasp the true realitys about war accept the killing part. Considering what the body count was expected to be I think your over reacting in reguards to casualty's, but seeing as you don't agree with the war its not surprizing.

Those racist comments were made by your President Bush, which shows exactly what he thinks of Muslims in the Middle East, since he referred to him that way. Secondly, the US being the strongest military power in the world, I am ashamed at our casualty figure. Of course, you would not hold the same compassion for the loss of US soldiers because you are not a compassionate American. So, that being said, your opinions on US soldier casualty loss does not count in my book.



The only proof will come in the form of a paper trail, no paper claiming the distruction and you have the same situation as Saddams Iraq, no paper proof that he got rid of his known WMD's. Digging up that paper work takes time.

You previously requested links in support of evidence, so I would believe a public news conference by a military superior would be sufficient, along with a report of an inbedded news official that was on-site. However, we both know that if any testimonials of eyewitnesses does not coincide with your opinion, there is an alterior motive for you to find. You should have been a lawyer, since your stance on issues is always finding and staying in the loopholes, never admitting to truths or reality, no matter how controversial they are.

Confed999
31 Oct 04,, 20:23
because you are not a compassionate American.
He doesn't believe an Iraqi is worth less than an American. He supports the independance of millions. Who isn't compassionate?

However, we both know that if any testimonials of eyewitnesses does not coincide with your opinion,
What of the reports that do not coincide with your opinion? You seem to have disregarded them, yet he notes the conflicting reports.

Officer of Engineers
31 Oct 04,, 23:41
Secondly, the US being the strongest military power in the world, I am ashamed at our casualty figure.

I submit


Henry V: King's Monologue
So, if a son that is by his father sent about merchandise do sinfully miscarry upon the sea, the imputation of his wickedness, by your rule, should be imposed upon his father that sent him; or if a servant, under his master's command transporting a sum of money, be assailed by robbers and die in many irreconciled iniquities, you may call the business of the master the author of the servant's damnation. But this is not so. The king is not bound to answer the particular endings of his soldiers, the father of his son, nor the master of his servant; for they purpose not their death when they purpose their services. Besides, there is no king, be his cause never so spotless, if it come to the arbitrement of swords, can try it out with all unspotted soldiers. Some peradventure have on them the guilt of premeditated and contrived murder; some, of beguiling virgins with the broken seals of perjury; some, making the wars their bulwark, that have before gored the gentle bosom of peace with pillage and robbery. Now, if these men have defeated the law and outrun native punishment, though they can outstrip men, they have no wings to fly from God. War is his beadle, war is his vengeance; so that here men are punished for before-breach of the king's laws in now the king's quarrel. Where they feared the death, they have borne life away; and where they would be safe, they perish. Then if they die unprovided, no more is the king guilty of their damnation than he was before guilty of those impieties for the which they are now visited. Every subject's duty is the king's, but every subject's soul is his own. Therefore should every soldier in the wars do as every sick man in his bed -- wash every mote out of his conscience; and dying so, death is to him advantage; or not dying, the time was blessedly lost wherein such preparation was gained; and in him that escapes, it were not sin to think that, making God so free an offer, he let him outlive that day to see his greatness and to teach others how they should prepare.

smilingassassin
01 Nov 04,, 00:26
Those racist comments were made by your President Bush, which shows exactly what he thinks of Muslims in the Middle East, since he referred to him that way.

Was he refering to Muslims, or was he refering to terrorists or Bathists?
There is a difference...


Secondly, the US being the strongest military power in the world, I am ashamed at our casualty figure. Of course, you would not hold the same compassion for the loss of US soldiers because you are not a compassionate American. So, that being said, your opinions on US soldier casualty loss does not count in my book.

Yes you have stated many times already that I am a bigot and a war monger, therefor I'm not surprises you'd lump in un-compassionate in there, however your assessment is AGAIN wrong. You have no idea how I feel about those troops dieing over there, when my own country doesn't send troops to at least lighten the load somewhat, why?, because Canada has tons of Self preservationalists like you to distort the truth.

It saddens me to see France and Germany more conserned about their pride than the lives of inocent Iraqi's and 18/19 year old American G.I.'s losing their lives in the most important point in history we have ever known. Iraq has a chance to reform itself, like Turkey did after WW1, and with it the rest of the middle east and they do nothing.

You want to talk about casualty's, if it were any other Military in the world over there right now the casualty rate would be much higher. The fact remains that what you know of war is what you learned in hollywood, sorry dear the bad guys don't miss and the good guys don't have a clean uniform all the time. You also don't know the true nature of the enemy we are facing, they blend in with civilians and partake in sneak attacks, can you pick out a fighter dressed as a civilian in a crowd?

You want to talk about how the U.S. military breaks the rules?, the Iraqi insurgents smash the rule book and yet like "Hanoi" Jane Fonda you pray that they drive out your fellow Americans and cry holy havoc when they come back in bodybags.


You previously requested links in support of evidence, so I would believe a public news conference by a military superior would be sufficient, along with a report of an inbedded news official that was on-site. However, we both know that if any testimonials of eyewitnesses does not coincide with your opinion, there is an alterior motive for you to find.

I wait for ALL the facts, before coming to a conclusion, you on the other hand, already having your opinion pre-determined and salivating at the chance to boot Bush the war monger, jump on the first Juicy morsel only to have it evaporate into nothingness.


You should have been a lawyer, since your stance on issues is always finding and staying in the loopholes, never admitting to truths or reality, no matter how controversial they are.

I find this rather funny, I guess I can add Lawyer to your list of pre-missconceptions of me.

Julie
01 Nov 04,, 02:05
Office of Engineers:

Thank you for showing me the way to look beyond my guilt of these fallen soldiers. Your magnificant post brought back what I had already learned in my Christian faith....it was just hidden and buried by my weakness of guilt. If my feelings of misgivings are God's will, then so be it. Good will prevail the evil.

Julie
01 Nov 04,, 02:26
You have no idea how I feel about those troops dieing over there, when my own country doesn't send troops to at least lighten the load somewhat, why?, because Canada has tons of Self preservationalists like you to distort the truth.. Since your posts with me are usually in the defensive, it is hard for me to even begin to perceive how you feel about anything in my arguments.


I wait for ALL the facts, before coming to a conclusion...... Really? You seem to be up on speed in which ones are fact and which ones are fiction.


I find this rather funny, I guess I can add Lawyer to your list of pre-missconceptions of me. Since yours posts never state facts, or supported information, most of your replies are opinionated. I never have nothing more to argue with you than an opinion, or shooting in the dark as we say, which is comparable to a dance in a courtroom with an ambulance chaser.

Officer of Engineers
01 Nov 04,, 02:53
You have no idea how I feel about those troops dieing over there, when my own country doesn't send troops to at least lighten the load somewhat, why?, because Canada has tons of Self preservationalists like you to distort the truth.

We cannot do Iraq. At least not now, not for another 2 years. We're exhausted. The last Haiti mission, we had to strip the schools. We had to bring our people home to retrain, to requalify. We had to bring our equipment home to fix, to repair, to put back into working order.

We've done more than our share. We're in Yugoslavia 6 years too long. We've over-committed to Afghanistan (and let's face it, we're doing a job the Americans are way too busy to do but needs to be done).

As much as the Americans want us in Iraq, we have to do alot of repairing of both men and machine before we could.

lulldapull
01 Nov 04,, 03:09
Boys its a matter of 48 hours now! bush the bible faagot will be thrown out, and our involvement in this highly unpopular war will end!

Yeeterday we lost 8 of our young men! This son of a biitch Bush doesn't give a damn if 8 died or 800! :mad: I am sorry to say this that they died for god-damn nothing! :mad: :mad:

Bush has had his chance to do his part in making our country safe for us, and in all honesty after seeing that baastard Osama yesterday i felt sick to my stomach and it was a vindication that bush has failed in his primary obligation to us as our president! his number one priorty is to protect us and the baastard who killed 3000 innocent ppl walks around like a free man!! :mad: He even has the audacity to comment on our elections! if that ain't a slap in our face than what the hell is? Thats a god-damn outrage! Bush ouht to be God-damn shot! :mad:

There ought to be a god-damn law to throw out an incompetent administration once we all see that it ain't working!

our God-damn constitution needs to be ammended!

Confed999
01 Nov 04,, 03:14
...faagot
Misspelling the curses on purpose doesn't make it right. Stop with the insults. If you can't post without them, don't bother.

lulldapull
01 Nov 04,, 03:24
Is the President a Pathological Liar?

Bush's unhealthy relationship with reality
by David Corn



It was a set-up question. Conservative radio talk-show host Michael Medved was trying to bait me, to push me into saying something so out of whack about the commander in chief that I would destroy my own credibility before the audience of his nationally syndicated show. It was a ruse I致e become quite familiar with in recent weeks, since I published a book demurely titled The Lies of George W. Bush: Mastering the Politics of Deception. In scores of media interviews, right-wing hosts have pressed me to pronounce Bush the all-time biggest SOB-of-a-liar in the White House and essentially accuse him of being a psycho. I have resisted the invitations, choosing to stick to my just-the-facts case that Bush has misled the public on a host of issues ・the war in Iraq, his tax cuts, global warming, Social Security, his own past and more. The goal of these interlocutors is to dismiss any harsh critique of Bush as nothing more than angry-left name-calling. I obviously believe Bush has lied often and consistently about grave matters, but I have shied away from labeling Bush 菟athological・and the like.

Now I wonder about that.

What forced this reconsideration was a speech Bush delivered in late November to several thousand troops at Butts Army Air Field in Fort Carson, Colorado. On this occasion, Bush served up the usual rah-rah about the war on terrorism. But as he was hailing the U.S. military, he remarked, 展orking with a fine coalition, our military went to Afghanistan, destroyed the training camps of al Qaeda and put the Taliban out of business forever.・/P>

Out of business forever?

That was a false statement. Days before Bush痴 speech, a U.S. helicopter crashed near Kabul, and five American soldiers were killed. These troops were hunting Taliban remnants. Two days before the speech, a rocket was fired at the Intercontinental Hotel in Kabul; Taliban insurgents were the prime suspects. On November 16, a U.N. aid worker was assassinated, apparently by the Taliban. In Kandahar, the Taliban was threatening to harm Afghans who participated in local elections.

None of this has been secret, even if events in Afghanistan receive less media coverage than the Laci Peterson case. In recent weeks, a stream of news reports has noted that the Taliban is on the rise and mounting an increasing number of attacks. These assaults have impeded much-needed reconstruction projects. In mid-November, a U.N. mission reported that the Taliban attacks were endangering democracy in Afghanistan.

What then could account for Bush痴 truth-defying assertion about the Taliban? After all, it was a statement ridiculously easy to disprove. (The Bush bashers of Moveon.org immediately sent out a mass e-mail citing this remark as further evidence that Bush is a misleader.) Was Bush really trying to hornswoggle the troops and the American people? In a way. I assume that had he bothered to think about this line, he probably would have realized that it was inaccurate and that there was no reason to claim the Taliban was stone-cold dead when he could have truthfully declared that the U.S. military (under his command) and its Afghan allies had routed the Taliban. It was not as if Bush said to himself, Aha! I know what I値l do. I will boast that I eliminated the Taliban ・even though anyone who follows this stuff knows a Taliban resurgence is under way ・and fool people into believing I am winning the war on terrorism.

Bush was more likely engaged in the deceit of triumphalism ・ignoring facts and saying whatever sounds good to juice up the public. It was hype, extreme rhetoric, utterly divorced from events on the ground. This statement was a report from Planet Bush, not the world as it exists ・a demonstration of Bush痴 penchant to embrace (and peddle) self-serving fantasy over the obvious truth.

The dishonesty underlying the Taliban line was transparent. In the same speech, Bush also practiced (yet again) a more nuanced form of dissembling. He told the crowd that the war on terrorism began with 9/11, and that 努e will not rest until we bring these committed killers to justice. These terrorists will not be stopped by negotiations, or by appeals to reason, or by the least hint of conscience . . . We must, and we will continue to, take the fight to the enemy.・So far so good: The terrorists who mounted the 9/11 attacks are bad and must be defeated. Then Bush distorted the picture: 典errorists need places to hide, to plot and to train, so we池e holding their allies, the allies of terror, to account.・And he cited Afghanistan and Iraq.

The implication was that somehow Iraq had afforded direct assistance to the people who attacked the United States on September 11, 2001. But there has been no proof that the mass-murdering perps of 9/11 used Iraq to hide, plot or train. Even though Bush conceded in September that there was 渡o evidence・tying Hussein to 9/11, he still endeavors to draw a straight line from the 9/11 evildoers to Iraq.



He displayed a similar disingenuousness during his surprise, 150-minute-long Thanksgiving Day visit to the American troops at the Bob Hope mess hall at the Baghdad airport. 添ou are,・he told the GIs, 電efeating the terrorists here in Iraq, so that we don稚 have to face them in our own country.・That comment ・which Bush had said previously ・sure seemed designed to create the impression that the war in Iraq is about beating back al Qaeda, the only terrorists Americans have had to face in their 登wn country.・In the weeks after Baghdad fell, reports out of Iraq raised the possibility that anti-American jihadists linked to or motivated by al Qaeda were pouring into Iraq to do battle with the United States. But a week before Bush told the troops they were battling 鍍errorists・in Iraq who might otherwise be gunning for their loved ones on the streets of America, two of Bush痴 top commanders in Iraq ・Major General Charles Swannack Jr. and Major General David Petraeus ・said that they had seen little sign that a significant number of al Qaeda loyalists or wannabes had flocked to Iraq. The enemy they are facing, the pair asserted, were mainly Baathist remnants. And there is no reason to believe these murderous thugs would be planning raids on domestic U.S. targets if the U.S. military were not chasing after them in Iraq.

So Bush tells us the ongoing war in Iraq is a strike against the forces that hit America on 9/11 and would do so again (were it not for the invasion of Iraq), and he proclaims the Taliban extinct. None of this is supported by the readily available information provided by the media or Bush痴 own military. Making such melodramatic and misleading claims may or may not be pathological, but it certainly isn稚 a sign that Bush has a healthy relationship with reality.

Fonnicker
01 Nov 04,, 03:27
We've done more than our share. We're in Yugoslavia 6 years too long. We've over-committed to Afghanistan (and let's face it, we're doing a job the Americans are way too busy to do but needs to be done).

Now, doesn't this illustrate the point that the invasion of Iraq, considering they didn't pose an immediate threat, was hastened to say the least? The war on terror, originating in Afghanistan, wasn't over just because the Taliban were ousted. Why didn't Bush maintain his focus on Afghanistan? Maybe this was Kerry's point when he said, "Wrong war, wrong place, wrong time."

Confed999
01 Nov 04,, 03:30
Maybe this was Kerry's point when he said, "Wrong war, wrong place, wrong time."
He voted to go to war with Iraq. Anything else is political rhetoric.

Officer of Engineers
01 Nov 04,, 03:40
Now, doesn't this illustrate the point that the invasion of Iraq, considering they didn't pose an immediate threat, was hastened to say the least? The war on terror, originating in Afghanistan, wasn't over just because the Taliban were ousted. Why didn't Bush maintain his focus on Afghanistan? Maybe this was Kerry's point when he said, "Wrong war, wrong place, wrong time."

I can only speak about Canadian defence policies. I cannot comment on events which were susbequently denied to us because we would not participate and thus, did not have a need-to-know. I can tell you that the CF had decided that Iraq was justified enough to offer up the 2nd Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group. Saddam's past actions at stupidity and 11 Sept demonstrated thinking outside the box gave Saddam enough hints to try something else. I, and the Chiefs, had no doubt that Saddam would try something again and that was strategically intolerable.

This being all said, Parliment and not National Defence Headquarters make foreign policy. Parliment judged that without UN approval, we would not particiapate in Iraq. Rightly or wrongly, we obey Parliment.

lulldapull
01 Nov 04,, 03:43
Now, doesn't this illustrate the point that the invasion of Iraq, considering they didn't pose an immediate threat, was hastened to say the least? The war on terror, originating in Afghanistan, wasn't over just because the Taliban were ousted. Why didn't Bush maintain his focus on Afghanistan? Maybe this was Kerry's point when he said, "Wrong war, wrong place, wrong time."


Dude we are losing this war on terror because of this guy! 'overextended'? My friend having spent close to 200 billion on this war of terror with Osama smilling in our faces and commenting on our elctions is a god-damn outrage!

Bush is a pathoogical liar, he has accomplished nothing in the 3 years since his sorry ass came to the white house! osama is alive and threatening. And as the former CIA analyst on Nightline yesterday pointed out that Al-qaeda's cadres have literally swollen a thousand fold since 9-11! He has millions ready to die for him! We squadered our chance under his pathetic and decietful leadership!

If God-forbid this idotic Bush is re-elected he'l totally destroy us! :)

Fonnicker
01 Nov 04,, 03:59
Dude we are losing this war on terror because of this guy! 'overextended'? My friend having spent close to 200 billion on this war of terror with Osama smilling in our faces and commenting on our elctions is a god-damn outrage!

Bush is a pathoogical liar, he has accomplished nothing in the 3 years since his sorry ass came to the white house! osama is alive and threatening. And as the former CIA analyst on Nightline yesterday pointed out that Al-qaeda's cadres have literally swollen a thousand fold since 9-11! He has millions ready to die for him! We squadered our chance under his pathetic and decietful leadership!

If God-forbid this idotic Bush is re-elected he'l totally destroy us! :)


I can't argue with your passion, that much is certain. I just have a hard time understanding what the big rush was all about? In retrospect, I ask, was rushing to war with Saddam worth the price we are paying? He did not have WMDs. He had an impotent military. Iraq was not an AQ hotbed. Because of our rush to war against the UN and vast world opinion we now face the financial burdon of reconstruction alone. If we had excercised some patience and focused our resources on the war on terror, in time perhaps we could have garnished more support for our actions. I can't see how anyone can argue the fact that the US has lost a ton of credibility.

Confed999
01 Nov 04,, 04:01
If God-forbid this idotic Bush is re-elected he'l totally destroy us! :)
You were just confident that Kerry would be elected and fix everything by pulling out of the war. Not so confident now?

Fonnicker
01 Nov 04,, 04:17
I really don't think Kerry would pull out of the war. We are too entrenched to leave now. Leaving would be disastrous to the people of Iraq. He knows that. We need to finish what we started. Even I, who obviously am against this war, can acknowlege that fact.

Kerry gets a lot of grief about his war record which for the life of me I can't understand. I repect the hell out of a person that goes to war for his country even though he dissagrees with the war itself. He does his duty. He fights bravely. Only when his tour is up and he comes home does he "peacefully" protest the war. That to me is the perfect American. Anti-war does not equate to anti-soldier. It does not equate to anti-american. Why bash a man for that? Why try to debunk his military record? Why attempt to trivialize his purple hearts?

He had the courage and the partriotism to go to war for his country. Can President Bush say the same thing? Why then would we assume that Kerry will be softer in the light of fighting terrorism? I just don't get it.

Confed999
01 Nov 04,, 04:35
I really don't think Kerry would pull out of the war.
I don't either, but I can't be sure. He has said 6 months, and he has said 1 year, as well as his current position(s).

does he "peacefully" protest the war. That to me is the perfect American.
It's perfect to deal with the enemy in Paris, multiple times I believe? It's perfect to slander American troops and give a brutal enemy justification? It's perfect that he admits to committing attrocities and isn't investigated? All he served to do, was to continue politicization of the war. The military won that war more than once, the politicizers snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

Anti-war does not equate to anti-soldier.
He made anti-soldier statements. His voting record is anti-military, and anti-intelligence.

Why try to debunk his military record?
They do that to everyone in politics. If there's a question, I want to know about it.

Why attempt to trivialize his purple hearts?
If they are questionable, I would want to know.

Can President Bush say the same thing?
Technically yes. Bush's unit wasn't called to Vietnam, Kerry's was.

Why then would we assume that Kerry will be softer in the light of fighting terrorism?
By his statements, and his votes over the last 20 years.

smilingassassin
01 Nov 04,, 06:15
Since your posts with me are usually in the defensive, it is hard for me to even begin to perceive how you feel about anything in my arguments.

You seem to be up on speed in which ones are fact and which ones are fiction.

Since yours posts never state facts, or supported information, most of your replies are opinionated.

Ha! more outright lies! On the defensive? Given the fact that you stooped as low as to partake in dirrect personal attacks doesn't show that your are in the stronger position, in fact your in the weaker possition.


I never have nothing more to argue with you than an opinion, or shooting in the dark as we say, which is comparable to a dance in a courtroom with an ambulance chaser.

Thats utter BS, Ive posted links numerous times, to which you've responded quite rarely unless its yet another personal attack. The ones you have no answers to counter you simply egnore.

smilingassassin
01 Nov 04,, 06:18
We cannot do Iraq. At least not now, not for another 2 years. We're exhausted. The last Haiti mission, we had to strip the schools. We had to bring our people home to retrain, to requalify. We had to bring our equipment home to fix, to repair, to put back into working order.

We've done more than our share. We're in Yugoslavia 6 years too long. We've over-committed to Afghanistan (and let's face it, we're doing a job the Americans are way too busy to do but needs to be done).

As much as the Americans want us in Iraq, we have to do alot of repairing of both men and machine before we could.

I was aware of that but thank you for pointing it out for the other posters. It never the less makes me feel no better knowing that we have worn out our Military to the point where it is anything but fully effective. Perhaps Martin will increase funding to the military, but I'm not holding my breath.

Julie
01 Nov 04,, 13:59
This being all said, Parliment and not National Defence Headquarters make foreign policy. Parliment judged that without UN approval, we would not particiapate in Iraq. Rightly or wrongly, we obey Parliment. And that is the way it should be....I had hoped the US would have done the same.



Ha! more outright lies! On the defensive? Given the fact that you stooped as low as to partake in dirrect personal attacks doesn't show that your are in the stronger position, in fact your in the weaker possition. I have admitted to my weaknesses in this thread, have you? Moreover, my weaknesses are the reasons for my arguments. Prove me wrong.



Thats utter BS, Ive posted links numerous times, to which you've responded quite rarely unless its yet another personal attack. The ones you have no answers to counter you simply egnore..

There is no need to respond to a legitimately supported argument, unless there is something to counter it with.

Officer of Engineers
01 Nov 04,, 15:34
And that is the way it should be....I had hoped the US would have done the same.

Do you mean with UN approval? On that, I completely disagree and see this as a failure of leadership by my Parliment.

If it is the right war to fight with UN approval, then why is it the wrong war to fight without it? The facts leading to war did not change.

lulldapull
01 Nov 04,, 15:43
Man our country is fast becoming a cheese pumping nation that you feel embarrassed about from day to day now! :mad: ust yesterday I was at the Wood fild mall, and walked up to the Marine reqruitment booth in the middle of the promenade! There were a couple of totally brainwashed 20 year old programmable "robots" manning it, and a throng of anti-war ppl heckling them! It was a god-damn disgrace!

it was funny to watch them desperately trying to talk to mexican and Hispanic guys walkin around! :biggrin: :biggrin: If it wasn't them it was some God-damn 2 cent illegal Pollock or Ukrainian! And I swear to God one of the two "marines' asked a couple of Pollocks if they had green cards, and I heard him saying that:

" He can help them become naturalized "! :biggrin: :biggrin: God-damn talk about desperation! A buddy of mine told us all that these new 2 cent eastern European 'Conscripts' ( Who can barely speak English ) are eventually sent to iraq and handed the task of driving a truck in the resupply of bases! :biggrin:

Recruitment is way down, and our military has totally lowered its standards! A lot of our seniors are now saying hat this is 100% reminiscent of the Vietnam days of the early 70's! :)

lulldapull
01 Nov 04,, 15:45
Iraq is becomin a meat grinder!

swallowing men and material!


Fresh troops arrive in Iraq ahead of assault

Iraqi PM says plans for Fallujah offensive in final phaseMSNBC News Services
Updated: 5:24 a.m. ET Nov. 1, 2004BAGHDAD, Iraq - A brigade of fresh American troops arriving in Baghdad will push the total U.S. military presence in Iraq to around 142,000, the highest level since the summer of 2003, as planners prepare for an expected assault on insurgent hotspots ahead of Iraqi elections.

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Army units slated to depart were being held back until after the January elections.

Meanwhile, gunmen on Monday killed the deputy governor of Baghdad, Iraqi officials said.

Hatim Kamil died when gunmen opened fire on his car in the southern Doura neighborhood, Interior Ministry spokesman Col. Adnan Abdul-Rahman said. Two of his bodyguards were also wounded, Abdul-Rahman said.

At Camp Victory North, the sprawling headquarters of the Army’s 1st Cavalry Division, the mess hall and housing trailers were brimming to capacity with the arrival of the 3,700-member Louisiana-based 256th Enhanced Separate Brigade, a National Guard unit that has been rolling into the Iraqi capital the past few days.

The arrival of the 256th was supposed to have been timed with the departure of the 1st Cavalry’s 2nd Brigade, which was scheduled to prepare to return to Fort Hood, Texas, in November. But the Pentagon delayed the 2nd Brigade’s departure by two months, military officials said.

Iraq’s impending elections and planned offensives in Iraq’s western Anbar province were expected to soak up much of the extra U.S. combat power.

Preparations for Fallujah assault in 'final phase'
Iraq’s interim prime minister, Ayad Allawi, warned on Sunday that efforts to peacefully resolve the standoff in Fallujah have entered their “final phase” and that his patience is running short.

In a speech that seemed aimed at preparing the Iraqi public for an onslaught, Allawi warned of civilian casualties, saying that if he orders an assault, it would be with a “heavy heart,” because “there will be some loss of innocent lives.”

“But I owe, owe it to the Iraqi people to defend them from the violence and the terrorists and insurgents,” he said.


Anja Niedringhaus / AP
U.S. Marines of the 1st Division prepare for a patrol outside the insurgent-controlled city of Fallujah on Sunday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. officials say the final order for an all-out attack on Fallujah will come from Allawi. Commanders have estimated that up to 5,000 Islamic militants, Saddam Hussein loyalists and common criminals are holed up there.

In a take on the Fallujah situation that appeared to contrast with Allawi’s, the country’s interim president said a military assault was the wrong solution, according to an interview published Monday.

President Ghazi al-Yawer told the Kuwaiti daily Al-Qabas that dialogue must continue and that insurgents “want nothing but a military solution, and the continuation of bleeding among Iraqis.”

“I absolutely disagree with those who believe a military attack is necessary,” al-Yawer was quoted as saying. “The way the coalition is managing the crisis is wrong. It is as if someone shot his horse in the head to kill a fly that landed on it. The fly flies away and the horse dies.”

U.S. Marine killed in blast
Elsewhere, one U.S. Marine was killed and four others wounded when a bomb exploded in the central Iraqi city of Ramadi, the military said Monday.

The Marines were hit on Sunday with an improvised explosive device, the U.S. command said. There were no other details available.

U.S. forces have been clashing with insurgents for weeks in Ramadi, an insurgent-heavy Sunni Muslim area about 70 miles west of Baghdad.




Rocket attack kills 15 Iraqis
In the city of Tikrit in Iraq’s Sunni Triangle, a rocket slammed into the Sunubar Hotel late Sunday, killing 15 Iraqis and wounding eight others, hospital officials said. The target may have been an American position that was targeted by a second rocket. U.S. officials said there were no American casualties.

The newly arriving troops leave Maj. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, commander of the 1st Cavalry, in charge of eight Army brigades, or more than 32,000 soldiers.

The five elemental brigades of Chiarelli’s division were expected to begin the process of pulling out of Iraq in late January, after the return of the Army’s Georgia-based 3rd Infantry Division, which arrives for its second tour in Iraq. The 3rd Infantry led the charge to Baghdad and captured the city in April 2003.

Three brigades under Chiarelli’s command will stay behind in Iraq: the 256th, the Arkansas-based 39th Enhanced Separate Brigade and the 2nd Brigade of the Army’s 10th Mountain Division, based at Fort Drum, N.Y.

Also staying longer will be 3,000 soldiers of the Tikrit-based 1st Infantry Division headquarters. They previously were to have been replaced in January, before the elections, by incoming troops from the 42nd Infantry Division, New York National Guard.

Early next year, the Army’s III Corps will transfer control of overall war fighting duties in Iraq to the 18th Airborne Corps, based in Fort Bragg, N.C.

Insurgent network
Fallujah has become the nexus of an insurgent network that has carried out numerous car-bombings and beheadings of foreign hostages since the Bush administration ordered Marines to halt an offensive against the city in April.

Fallujah is believed to be the headquarters of Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who announced his allegiance to al-Qaida this month. Al-Zarqawi’s group is believed responsible for numerous beheadings of foreign hostages, including Japanese backpacker Shosei Koda, whose body was found Saturday night in Baghdad wrapped in an American flag.

“The terrorists and insurgents continue to use Fallujah and the Fallujah people as a shield for their murderous acts,” Allawi said. “Some of the most incredible crimes have been committed in Fallujah and out of Fallujah by these terrorists.”

He said he “cannot stand back and allow such attacks to continue.”

An offensive against Sunni strongholds would present a major challenge to Allawi, a secular Shiite Muslim politician who cultivated links to the CIA and the U.S. State Department during his years in exile in London during Saddam’s regime.

RELATED LINK
Click here for MSNBC.com's Iraq section




In April, U.S. Marines launched a major assault on Fallujah after the slaying of four American security contractors, whose burned and mutilated bodies were dragged through the streets and hung from a bridge over the Euphrates River.

However, the assault unleashed a firestorm of criticism among Iraqis, including key members of the U.S.-appointed Iraqi Governing Council, who complained of hundreds of civilian casualties. The Marines lifted the siege after three weeks and handed security over to a brigade of Fallujah residents under the command of Saddam’s former officers.

The brigade melted away and the city fell under the control of hardline Sunni clerics and their mujahedeen fighters.

American officers estimate up to 5,000 Islamic militants, Saddam loyalists and common criminals are holed up in Fallujah. Thousands more operate in other cities of the Sunni Triangle and in Baghdad.

In preparation for an offensive, hundreds of British troops have moved into an area south of Baghdad to free up American forces for operations west of Baghdad. British press reports said four mortar shells landed early Sunday at a British camp south of Fallujah. Two rockets also exploded at the perimeter of the airport in the southern city of Basra where the British contingent has its headquarters.

There were no casualties or serious damage in either attack, British media reports said.

Japanese hostage confirmed killed
Also, early Sunday, the Japanese government confirmed that the decapitated body of a young Asian male — found wrapped in an American flag and dumped in an insurgent-infested neighborhood of Baghdad — was that of Japanese hostage Shosei Koda, 24, said Japanese Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura.

Koda’s abduction was claimed by the al-Qaida in Iraq group led by al-Zarqawi.

lulldapull
01 Nov 04,, 16:21
People who can't even god-damn speak English! are un-educated and fresh off the god-damn cheese boat, are now our military representatives overseas! it seems to be getting better by the day as even the (lower caste) "underclasses" comprising of inner city baastards are now refusing to go due to the ongoing carnage! I hope Kerry shuts down this disgraceful practice of conscripting our illegal minorities on the premise of a now worthless green card in a god-damn failed economy! :mad:


Foreigners as cannon fodder? :biggrin: :biggrin:

Nearly 40,000 of America's frontline soldiers are not Americans

by James Gooder, Al-Jazeera Sept. 1, 2003

Many of the troops on duty in Iraq do not count English as their first language and would prefer to take orders in their native tongue ... usually Spanish.

The revelation has prompted British MP George Galloway, one of the fiercest critics of the invasion of Iraq, to accuse the US of using its "green card" troops as cannon fodder.

Galloway went on to attack the US policy of putting its poor minorities and non-citizens in the frontline of its foreign wars.

In an exclusive interview he told Aljazeera.net that it was part of a long US tradition of using its underclass as cannon fodder.

The statistics, buried by White House spin doctors, reveal that a significant minority of troops fighting under the US banner are not in fact US citizens but residents hoping to speed up their citizenship.

Galloway said that this was typical of a government used to having the marginalised fight its battles.

"Nothing has changed since that last failed attempt to invade and determine the future of another country, Vietnam," he told Aljazeera.net from his holiday villa in Portugal.

"The proportion of blacks in the army was 40%, while in the US population the number of blacks was a quarter of that," he said

"Of course the underclass has now become increasingly more Hispanic than black."

This explains why a disproportionate number of the so-called US casualties in the invasion and occupation of Iraq have borne Latino names.

Galloway says that on a weekly Atlanta radio show in which he participates, the callers have repeatedly claimed that Blacks and Hispanics are the fodder army recruiters are after.

... But the percentage of non-citizens in the US Army is low — only 4.2%

VisaLaw Jan 15, 1999

A recent article by Dave Moniz in the Christian Science Monitor addresses the current discussion over the role of immigrants serving in the U.S. military. According to the Navy Times, legal resident non-citizens accounted for 7,500 new recruits to all the armed forces in 1997. In the Army alone, non-citizens recruits have risen from 2,200 in 1995 to 3,100 in 1998. Despite the numbers, the percentage of non-citizens in the Army is low, only 4.2%.

While non-citizen recruits have helped recent recruiting slumps, many are concerned. One current reason for the concern was the revelation in December that that an Egyptian national and former Army supply sergeant was charged with assisting Osama bin Laden, the Saudi national implicated in the U.S. embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. This is highly unusual, and military officials are quick to point out that immigrants are not placed in sensitive positions such as intelligence or Special Forces.

Lyle Hendrick, a former Special Forces officer, says immigrants "sometimes make better soldiers than U.S. teenagers," but also fears that increasing percentages of immigrants in the Army grows "further and further away from the image of the American public." Most historians however, do not believe immigrants would be reluctant to fight for America, citing the example of Japanese-Americans who fought for the U.S. in World War II.



Published by
VisaLaw

The Pentagon says that there are 37,401 non-US citizens on active duty, and that joining up has a special incentive for them — an American passport.

"The military services have processes and programmes in place to help service members expedite their citizenship," says a US Department of Defence spokesperson.

"The estimated time for the application is about six months."

Citizenship has been especially hard to come by due to the draconian immigration rules imposed by the US Department of Homeland Security since the 11 September 2001 attacks.

It can take several years to gain citizenship, for those lucky enough to get it. Signing up to the army can speed this up, provided the GI comes home alive.

Other incentives under the Montgomery GI Bill include the promises of a college fund of up to $50,000, post service employment and training.

But activist Carlos Mendes of the Latinos Against the War in Iraq coalition says that many soldiers have told him that these promises often fail to materialise.

The US military relies on volunteers, the Pentagon argues, and there is no official draft, therefore no pressure on anyone to sign up.

Yet in a country where further education is prohibitively expensive, and medical care privatised, these incentives deliberately target America's poor minorities, as well as those desperate for citizenship, freeing the sons and daughters of those with money and influence from service.

"The people who made the decisions never sent their sons to get hot, bloody and dirty on the battlefield," he said.

Even when there was a draft, the decision-makers stayed out of trouble. "The white sons of the rulers of America, including a certain George W Bush, have always found ways around the draft, in his case through his bogus service in the air auxiliary, while Dick Cheney took one course after another at university," he said.

Galloway, the Glasgow Kelvin MP who has consistently criticised US and British policy on Iraq, famously called Bush and Blair "wolves" over their war-like rhetoric leading up to the invasion.

He opposed UN sanctions imposed after the last Gulf War complaining that they inflicted huge suffering on ordinary Iraqis.

Mr Galloway has visited Iraq on numerous occasions and met the country's former president and major figures in the Baathist government.

But he was also a vigorous campaigner during the Thatcher years, picketing the Iraqi embassy in London, when the Conservative government supplied arms to Saddam Hussein.


The Pentagon says that there are 37,401 non-US citizens on active duty, and that joining up has a special incentive for them — an American passport.

Julie
01 Nov 04,, 17:51
Do you mean with UN approval? On that, I completely disagree and see this as a failure of leadership by my Parliment.

If it is the right war to fight with UN approval, then why is it the wrong war to fight without it? The facts leading to war did not change.

Do forgive me for not agreeing with your views of the decision of a war invasion, since I highly respect your views, and you have the experience to make those calls. However, I do not agree with a unilateral war, nor the time given for proper planning with any members of the international community. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the corrupt and bias decision making of the UN, however, the things I have seen unfold with this "rush job" is not to my liking at all.

This very moment, I would have more faith in you, yourself, to decide and plan an invasion concerning Iraq, than the administration of Bush, or probably Kerry.

Julie
01 Nov 04,, 17:56
lulldapull -- is this a form of "out-sourcing," or better yet, "earning your citizenship?" And, the last time I heard reported, there was only one known sibling of a US Government servant serving in Iraq. The Pot and the Kettle are sure looking the same colors to me...eh? :biggrin:

Officer of Engineers
01 Nov 04,, 18:34
Do forgive me for not agreeing with your views of the decision of a war invasion, since I highly respect your views, and you have the experience to make those calls. However, I do not agree with a unilateral war, nor the time given for proper planning with any members of the international community. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the corrupt and bias decision making of the UN, however, the things I have seen unfold with this "rush job" is not to my liking at all.

I'm afraid that there is a disconnect here. Allow me to expand on my explaination. Ottawa ordered the Department of National Defence to start planning for a possible action in Iraq. We sent a staff to CENTCOM to start seeing where, how, and when we could participate.

Our then PM Jean Chretien started to question POTUS Bush's evidence. The result was that we were no longer invited to several CENTCOM meetings, not having a need-to-know.

Chretien sent our Minister of National Defence John McCallum going on hands and knees to SECDEF Rumsfeld to beg to allow us back into those meetings. We've got approval from the Prime Minister's Office to offer up a reduced Brigade Group (4000 people) for action in Iraq.

Failing UN approval, we withdrew from Iraq and committed to the ISAF in Afghanistan instead which was a surprise to everyone, including the Chief of Land Staff ... but not apparently, SECDEF Rumsfeld (I've got the feeling that this was the SECDEF demanded we do Afghanistan if we don't do Iraq).

Thus, from the Canadian Forces' PoV, we've gone through all this simply because we had thought everyone had decided the Iraq action was the right one, including our political masters. So, it was a shock to us when this 180 degree came about.

Every government has the duty to decide what is best for its country, not the UN. We've gone through all this planning and preparation because we had thought our government had done the soul searching before sending us into Harm's Way (looking back, I should have known better. A Government doing soul searching?). To us, it was a coward's way out of not standing up and taking a stand. Iraq was either right or wrong on its own merits, not because the UN say so.


This very moment, I would have more faith in you, yourself, to decide and plan an invasion concerning Iraq, than the administration of Bush, or probably Kerry.

You give me far too much credit. I was at most a Bde lvl officer (5-6000 men). If you think right now is bad, you don't want to see how bad I can screw things up simply because I am not qualified at that level.

This being said, I have to say that the lack of leadership is most appalling to me. Neither candidate has captured the heart and soul of the American people. It makes me question that if neither candidate can lead the American people to a resounding election victory, then why would anyone expect either to lead the world governments?

lulldapull
01 Nov 04,, 18:57
lulldapull -- is this a form of "out-sourcing," or better yet, "earning your citizenship?" And, the last time I heard reported, there was only one known sibling of a US Government servant serving in Iraq. The Pot and the Kettle are sure looking the same colors to me...eh? :biggrin:


Well I tell you :biggrin: :biggrin: you know the funny thing is that when this cheez pumpin war started in afghanistan every God-damn greeser or eastern European conscript picked up his hot dog and the 40 oz and headed for the nearest recruitment centre! :biggrin: :biggrin: Then an year later when these terrorists started gettin together;

(thanks to our ass-hole of a president and his myopic vision of the world)

you couldn't find a career criminal wantin to go over there even for a communal of his God-damn sentence! :biggrin: :biggrin:

When I was pumping cheese as a security guard for about 6 months ( Due to the complete and absolute evaporation of engineering jobs, here in the Chicago area ) i have personally met many an Iraqi "Christian" A-raanb, one of them neanderthal looking ones who conveniently call themselves 'Assyrian', and vehemently deny that they ain't A-raanb, and as soon as you turn around they start chattng in that disgusting language! :biggrin:

And after hearing stories from these Assyrian monkeys about the horrible decapitations that many of their expatriots have suffered after going back to their pathetic country ( under the premise that they'd get legalised if they did so in helping out a beleagured U.S. military) :biggrin: :biggrin:

I swear to God Julie the U.S. govt. is offering $100,000 tax free to any cheese pumper, and a chance to straighten out is/ her "turd-world" status :biggrin: ! Provided you are willing to drive a truck in iraq! Right now!

P.S. If you speak A-raanb or look like one, hell then thats an added bonus! :)

Donnie
01 Nov 04,, 19:30
i have personally met many an Iraqi "Christian" A-raanb, one of them neanderthal looking ones who conveniently call themselves 'Assyrian', and vehemently deny that they ain't A-raanb, and as soon as you turn around they start chattng in that disgusting language!


after hearing stories from these Assyrian monkeys


If it wasn't them it was some God-damn 2 cent illegal Pollock or Ukrainian!


God one of the two "marines' asked a couple of Pollocks if they had green cards


bush the bible faagot will be thrown out

whats a guy gotta do to get thrown out of this site anyway?

Julie
01 Nov 04,, 20:33
This being said, I have to say that the lack of leadership is most appalling to me. Neither candidate has captured the heart and soul of the American people. It makes me question that if neither candidate can lead the American people to a resounding election victory, then why would anyone expect either to lead the world governments?

Agreed. But, it is worth taking a chance that someone else might do a better job than what we are dealing with now, and for another four years. With that said, together with what I am about to tell you, is why I am voting Kerry. I worked in the legal field closely with litigation lawyers, and as a paralegal professional, which is why I am against big companies, and for civil rights, and rights in general, of the less fortunate. You can say what you want about lawyers, and some of it is true, but prosecuting attorneys are a whole different type of people, and I highly respect them. Prosecutors do not get paid near the money they would make in private practice, so it is their compassion in the definite lines they draw between right and wrong that drive them. I researched Kerry's record, and found what I was looking for, which was no surprise to me. While Republicans began at the start of their campaign ripping at Kerry's "record," which they have since stopped, partly due that people began researching it , and Kerry's approval rating began rising. Kerry spent most of his time writing legislation and attempting to get his legislation passsed, while pursuing international drug lords, and was quite successful. He also aided in getting the budget passed in the Clinton Administration. Kerry has the backbone of a prosecutor, which tells me that he will not stop at bringing terrorists to justice, and no matter what is said about Kerry, he has stood his ground on behalf of people, on the pivotal "right v. wrong" issue, which will help tremendously in all of the international corrupt issues surfacing now.

Anyways, that is my reason for not voting for Bush and taking a chance with Kerry, because I can relate to his kind of person very much so.

lulldapull
01 Nov 04,, 23:41
Vooooooooooooooooo hoooooooooooooooooo! Start celebratin fellas! Tis the night to get all liquored up! :biggrin:

Bible Belt faags need to snap out of their homo erotic dreams and delusions because today is Bush's last god-damn day! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

kerry is comin to town, and he's gonna clean house and send all them cheese pumpers packin back to their bible belt states!

Donnie
02 Nov 04,, 00:45
Bible Belt faags

wasnt this guy warned already?

Julie
02 Nov 04,, 01:09
Vooooooooooooooooo hoooooooooooooooooo! Start celebratin fellas! Tis the night to get all liquored up! :biggrin: ... kerry is comin to town, and he's gonna clean house and send all them cheese pumpers packin back to their bible belt states!

I hear ya ! :biggrin:

Confed999
02 Nov 04,, 01:40
i have personally met many an Iraqi "Christian" A-raanb, one of them neanderthal looking ones who conveniently call themselves 'Assyrian', and vehemently deny that they ain't A-raanb, and as soon as you turn around they start chattng in that disgusting language!


after hearing stories from these Assyrian monkeys


If it wasn't them it was some God-damn 2 cent illegal Pollock or Ukrainian!


God one of the two "marines' asked a couple of Pollocks if they had green cards


bush the bible faagot will be thrown out
I asked you to stop nicely. That's another warning. You're allmost out of chances.

lulldapull
02 Nov 04,, 06:44
:biggrin: Awe ........ our christian fundo buddies are losing it!

AaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaHaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaa :biggrin:

:biggrin: :biggrin:

it wouldn't matter tomorrow boys! cuz Kerry is comin to town! :biggrin:

VooooooooooooooooooooooHHHHHoooooooooooooooooooooo oooooo

I can't God-damn wait!

P.S. This is what you get for running the country into the ground on one fundamentalists bogus and venemous religious 'convictions'! :mad:

smilingassassin
02 Nov 04,, 10:24
Julie, I find it ironic that we are arguing about racist remarks you think I made, and yet you seem to enjoy Lull's posts that are jam packed with racial slurs and swearing. You seem to pick and choose what is racist and what is not, please clarify....

For the record I'm no "Christian Fundo", I'm moderately religious, and I too think Lull has crossed the line by miles. I myself recieved a warning about the "usefull idiots" phrase, to which I respectfully offered an appology and complied with the request to stop using it.

smilingassassin
02 Nov 04,, 10:36
I'm afraid that there is a disconnect here. Allow me to expand on my explaination. Ottawa ordered the Department of National Defence to start planning for a possible action in Iraq. We sent a staff to CENTCOM to start seeing where, how, and when we could participate.

Our then PM Jean Chretien started to question POTUS Bush's evidence. The result was that we were no longer invited to several CENTCOM meetings, not having a need-to-know.

Chretien sent our Minister of National Defence John McCallum going on hands and knees to SECDEF Rumsfeld to beg to allow us back into those meetings. We've got approval from the Prime Minister's Office to offer up a reduced Brigade Group (4000 people) for action in Iraq.

Failing UN approval, we withdrew from Iraq and committed to the ISAF in Afghanistan instead which was a surprise to everyone, including the Chief of Land Staff ... but not apparently, SECDEF Rumsfeld (I've got the feeling that this was the SECDEF demanded we do Afghanistan if we don't do Iraq).

Thus, from the Canadian Forces' PoV, we've gone through all this simply because we had thought everyone had decided the Iraq action was the right one, including our political masters. So, it was a shock to us when this 180 degree came about.

Every government has the duty to decide what is best for its country, not the UN. We've gone through all this planning and preparation because we had thought our government had done the soul searching before sending us into Harm's Way (looking back, I should have known better. A Government doing soul searching?). To us, it was a coward's way out of not standing up and taking a stand. Iraq was either right or wrong on its own merits, not because the UN say so.



You give me far too much credit. I was at most a Bde lvl officer (5-6000 men). If you think right now is bad, you don't want to see how bad I can screw things up simply because I am not qualified at that level.

This being said, I have to say that the lack of leadership is most appalling to me. Neither candidate has captured the heart and soul of the American people. It makes me question that if neither candidate can lead the American people to a resounding election victory, then why would anyone expect either to lead the world governments?

Very interesting insight into what acctually went on. I for one am proud of what our boys are doing, where ever they may be doing it.

lulldapull
02 Nov 04,, 15:24
Julie, I find it ironic that we are arguing about racist remarks you think I made, and yet you seem to enjoy Lull's posts that are jam packed with racial slurs and swearing. You seem to pick and choose what is racist and what is not, please clarify....

For the record I'm no "Christian Fundo", I'm moderately religious, and I too think Lull has crossed the line by miles. I myself recieved a warning about the "usefull idiots" phrase, to which I respectfully offered an appology and complied with the request to stop using it.


Whaat??? :) feelin the pinch of 'preferential treatment'???? :biggrin: :biggrin:

get used to it! and grow a thicker skin all of you! :biggrin: :biggrin:

Julie
02 Nov 04,, 16:08
Julie, I find it ironic that we are arguing about racist remarks you think I made, and yet you seem to enjoy Lull's posts that are jam packed with racial slurs and swearing. You seem to pick and choose what is racist and what is not, please clarify....

Why are you flip-flopping? First you say you weren't making an ethnic slur by referring to southerner's as "hicks," and had it justified by a Moderator. Okay, so then I decided to become less senstive to the descriptives [or as lulldapull said, "I got a thicker skin"], and now you are wanting me to recognize the same in lulldapull's posts?

BTW, I am a moderate non-fundo Christian. The take I get from Lulldapull is that he is not bias to any race, religion, or politician, he just dislikes, and mocks the extremism of each of them, which is fair. Too much of something (extremism/fundamentalism) is not a good thing, whether it be religion, politics, whatever, and I feel lulldapull portrays that in his posts, and I respect that. You, on the other hand, have you mind made up about things, and attempt to degrade the ones who do not agree with you. I do not respect that.

If that is not enough to clarify, then that was my best shot.

lulldapull
02 Nov 04,, 17:46
Why are you flip-flopping? First you say you weren't making an ethnic slur by referring to southerner's as "hicks," and had it justified by a Moderator. Okay, so then I decided to become less senstive to the descriptives [or as lulldapull said, "I got a thicker skin"], and now you are wanting me to recognize the same in lulldapull's posts?

BTW, I am a moderate non-fundo Christian. The take I get from Lulldapull is that he is not bias to any race, religion, or politician, he just dislikes, and mocks the extremism of each of them, which is fair. Too much of something (extremism/fundamentalism) is not a good thing, whether it be religion, politics, whatever, and I feel lulldapull portrays that in his posts, and I respect that. You, on the other hand, have you mind made up about things, and attempt to degrade the ones who do not agree with you. I do not respect that.

If that is not enough to clarify, then that was my best shot.


Thats right Julie, the funny thing is that these A_raanb Christians that you run into, the so-called "Assyrians" are nothin but the same camel jockey stock from iraq or Syria. They are 100% A-raanbs and they try so hard to say otherwise to ppl, by arguing that they are "christians" :biggrin: and somehow mysteriously that separates them from their dust buddy cousins! :biggrin: , And like I said as soon as you turn away from them they start talking in their A-raanb language:biggrin: :biggrin:

Man talk about an inferiority complex! :biggrin: :biggrin:

See they know that nobody likes camel jockeys here, so the instinct is to drop the "turd-world" baggage, and move away from it! :) but you can't change your semetic features now can you??? :biggrin:

The reality is that unfortunately the U.S. Govt. is very actively recruiting these types of ppl, and strongy encouraging them to go back to Iraq to enforce "the Neocon" writ. :)

As a matter of fact when the 54 Iraqi recruits got slaughtered recently they were instantly replaced by upto 270 imported "Assyrian" cadres around Baghdad! :)

Unfortunately each and every single so called 'Assyrian' I have met here has been full of venom!

And we are all free to express our opinions on fundos and impressionable minorities or low income clueless types from our country's innards! :) if not then we might as well hang a God-dam:

" Republican/ Neocon/ right wing fundo forum"

sign on this forum, and call it a day.

Ray
02 Nov 04,, 18:57
Lull,

Maybe you could tone down a wee bit?

Your views are interesting and even colourful in the language, but a modicum of toning down of irreligious wording would work wonders.

Being a sub continental, I have seen you bash your country of birth, their leaders and also your religion in a rather irreligious and contemptuous way in the vernacular, but then I reckon there are still people who hold religion in the US and elsewhere a bit more with respect than you.

I sure would miss your rather forthright views if you are banned since you present another viewpoint from everyone and personally I concede that it makes me think.

Lets not lose you.

Temper your wordings a wee bit. I am aware that the freedom of speech and other freedom of the US must be heady, but then one must take it easy.

If I have gone beyond my brief in this post, do overlook look it.

Julie
02 Nov 04,, 19:42
Lull, Maybe you could tone down a wee bit?....Lets not lose you.

I think Confed maybe considering putting you on that "ban wagon" Lull, and I don't want to lose you either. :)

smilingassassin
02 Nov 04,, 19:52
Whaat??? :) feelin the pinch of 'preferential treatment'???? :biggrin: :biggrin:

get used to it! and grow a thicker skin all of you! :biggrin: :biggrin:

I doubt for much longer....

smilingassassin
02 Nov 04,, 19:55
Why are you flip-flopping? First you say you weren't making an ethnic slur by referring to southerner's as "hicks," and had it justified by a Moderator. Okay, so then I decided to become less senstive to the descriptives [or as lulldapull said, "I got a thicker skin"], and now you are wanting me to recognize the same in lulldapull's posts?

BTW, I am a moderate non-fundo Christian. The take I get from Lulldapull is that he is not bias to any race, religion, or politician, he just dislikes, and mocks the extremism of each of them, which is fair. Too much of something (extremism/fundamentalism) is not a good thing, whether it be religion, politics, whatever, and I feel lulldapull portrays that in his posts, and I respect that. You, on the other hand, have you mind made up about things, and attempt to degrade the ones who do not agree with you. I do not respect that.

If that is not enough to clarify, then that was my best shot.

Right so you see racism selectively then. As usual you put the blame back on the other guy.

lulldapull
02 Nov 04,, 20:28
Okay, my Anti-gay/ homosexual bible Bigot/ mulla/ religious oriented bashings will end tonight at appox 8:00P.M.! :biggrin:

The precise Moment when Kerry will signal and end to these past 4 miserable years!

After that the purpose of this 'malicious' thead would have served its purpose!

Thank you all :biggrin:

Fonnicker
02 Nov 04,, 20:34
Okay, my Anti-gay/ homosexual bible Bigot/ mulla/ religious oriented bashings will end tonight at appox 8:00P.M.! :biggrin:

The precise Moment when Kerry will signal and end to these past 4 miserable years!

After that the purpose of this 'malicious' thead would have served its purpose!

Thank you all :biggrin:


You're a trip, Lull. :biggrin: I only hope that you are right about the results of this election. I doubt that your rantings converted any members of this forum, but cheers for trying.

lulldapull
02 Nov 04,, 20:41
You're a trip, Lull. :biggrin: I only hope that you are right about the results of this election. I doubt that your rantings converted any members of this forum, but cheers for trying.

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Dude at least i have the nads to openly announce my political afiliations! and the fact that I am on the pay-roll of a political party!

Yes I am a John Bircher! And God-damn proud of it! :)

heck half of those rants might have been due to the fact that for the last 2 days everyone in this Illinois Kerry-Edwards campaign and the John Birch Society are drunk! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Anyway they will end at precisely 8:00p.m. Central time when they will announce the results!

Confed999
03 Nov 04,, 02:27
I think Confed maybe considering putting you on that "ban wagon" Lull, and I don't want to lose you either. :)
I've never banned anyone.

Julie
03 Nov 04,, 04:52
I've never banned anyone.

Point taken. But, you are the one that gave him the warnings.

Julie
03 Nov 04,, 04:57
Right so you see racism selectively then. As usual you put the blame back on the other guy.

No...that's what you are doing was my point. Did you not call me "over-reacting?" Well, then when I don't react, you certainly point that out to me as well.

I'll tell you what, since we can't find any common ground whatsoever on this board, why don't you just IM me and tell me how to reply to these posts, so you will stop chasing me around and around the same old bush...eh? It is really getting annoying, and a pure waste of my valuable time.

smilingassassin
03 Nov 04,, 06:34
Point taken. But, you are the one that gave him the warnings.

He is a moderator, thats his perogative.

smilingassassin
03 Nov 04,, 06:39
No...that's what you are doing was my point. Did you not call me "over-reacting?" Well, then when I don't react, you certainly point that out to me as well.

I'll tell you what, since we can't find any common ground whatsoever on this board, why don't you just IM me and tell me how to reply to these posts, so you will stop chasing me around and around the same old bush...eh? It is really getting annoying, and a pure waste of my valuable time.

Waste of time indeed, its like talking to a brick wall...

If you find it annoying perhaps you should have refrained from calling me a racist, did you expect I would just clamp my trap as a responce?

At this point I would be happy to refrain from responding to ANY of your posts.

Donnie
03 Nov 04,, 16:14
You, on the other hand, have you mind made up about things, and attempt to degrade the ones who do not agree with you. I do not respect that.


theres a word for that, its hypocrit

Julie
03 Nov 04,, 17:34
At this point I would be happy to refrain from responding to ANY of your posts.

Oh, please !......throw me anywhere but in the briar patch ! :biggrin:


theres a word for that, its hypocrit Well, I try to refrain from name-calling, but since you insist, I'll agree. :biggrin:

Donnie
03 Nov 04,, 18:22
Well, I try to refrain from name-calling, but since you insist, I'll agree. :biggrin:

i was merely defining what you do, not who you are, but if that is how you feel, who am i to tell you different.

Ray
03 Nov 04,, 18:54
Smiling,

I am aware that you are a Canadian.

You are as much of a troll as Lull.

So......

Ray
03 Nov 04,, 19:02
Look, I know Confed through the cyber space.

I don't agree with most of his views. He walso doesn;t agree with anything I say.

However, where I feel he is better than me is - he is more of a GENTLEMAN than ME.

If he BANS anyone, I would be real SURPRISED.

His warnings are to be heeded.

There are worse guys as Mods here who will ban you if you say 'Boo'.

Julie
03 Nov 04,, 19:13
Look, I know Confed through the cyber space.

I don't agree with most of his views. He walso doesn;t agree with anything I say.

However, where I feel he is better than me is - he is more of a GENTLEMAN than ME.

If he BANS anyone, I would be real SURPRISED.

His warnings are to be heeded.

There are worse guys as Mods here who will ban you if you say 'Boo'.

Gosh, guys, I was only trying to smooth things over so we could get back to the topic, speaking of which, what do yall think will happen to some of the ones in the Bush Administration now? Do you think Rummy and Colin will stay, or resign?

smilingassassin
03 Nov 04,, 20:02
Smiling,

I am aware that you are a Canadian.

You are as much of a troll as Lull.

So......

If you consider me as much of a troll as Lull then your logic is seriously flawed.
I pesonally don't really care what your opinion of me is......

smilingassassin
03 Nov 04,, 20:04
Gosh, guys, I was only trying to smooth things over so we could get back to the topic, speaking of which, what do yall think will happen to some of the ones in the Bush Administration now? Do you think Rummy and Colin will stay, or resign?

Personally I'm not happy with Rumsfelds performance on several issues.

Ray
03 Nov 04,, 21:13
If you consider me as much of a troll as Lull then your logic is seriously flawed.
I pesonally don't really care what your opinion of me is......

I won't call you a racist, but you are on the thin dividing line.

I don;t care what you think, but you are no better than Lull except that you are more temperate with your language.

Are you by any chance related to Blair?

Julie
03 Nov 04,, 22:45
Personally I'm not happy with Rumsfelds performance on several issues.

Whooooooooooa. Now, by gosh, we are getting somewhere ! I agree with that. :biggrin: Do tell, please share. :)

lulldapull
03 Nov 04,, 23:22
I won't call you a racist, but you are on the thin dividing line.

I don;t care what you think, but you are no better than Lull except that you are more temperate with your language.

Are you by any chance related to Blair?


He's a bible bigot republican ( smiling kiddo ) :biggrin: Leave him alone man. He's harmless! :)

He'll get his 'whoopee in the bung hole' in Iraq soon. :) Just like Dubbya!

God what a shame for all of us! 4 more years of miserable economy, war and terrorism now to contend with! :mad:

Oh and Smilling kiddo........ I almost forgot to give you your election day Surprise, better get very used to this for the next 4 years:

Car bombing kills eight in Iraq

BAGHDAD, Nov 2: At least eight people were killed in Iraq on Tuesday in a car bombing spree that targeted symbols of the US-backed government, while hundreds of residents fled the guerilla-held city of Fallujah after a night of air raids.

The unrest came as the United States voted for its next president after an election campaign that has focused closely on Washington's decision to invade Iraq.

Upping the stakes, at least four employees of a foreign company, including an American, remained missing after kidnappers raided their Baghdad offices on Monday.

Prime Minister Iyad Allawi has pledged to restore order to the country before Iraq's own landmark polls, promised by January, and is prepared to use force.

At least six people were killed and another 21 wounded when a suicide car bomb tore through a line of cars outside the education ministry in northern Baghdad early on Tuesday morning.

"It was a suicide attack, we found the body of the driver inside the charred remains of the car," said a police official.

The bomber attempted to ram the gates outside the heavily-protected ministry compound but was stopped by guards before detonating his charge, one of the guards on duty said.

Minutes earlier another car bomb exploded in western Baghdad on a US military patrol, wounding one soldier and damaging an Iraqi truck, the army said in a statement.-AFP

Donnie
04 Nov 04,, 00:18
Oh and Smilling kiddo........ I almost forgot to give you your election day Surprise, better get very used to this for the next 4 years:


it would happen under kerry as well, whats your point.

lulldapull
04 Nov 04,, 00:43
it would happen under kerry as well, whats your point.

First of all Donnie, let m ask you this...Are you 14 or 15?? :)

Now to answer your childish question, No!!!Kerry wanted us outta there period! He'd have gotten us out of there quick!
Thats the difference! When you plan out wrong! You get on the wrong footing from the get go!

Right now no one is prepared to help us out in iraq...Ask yourself that qustion pal.

Whyy Donnie?? Why???? :biggrin: Why would no one help us out in Iraq???

because an illegal action on our part doesnot legitimise it! He reluctantly voted for it because he was pressured into it. And he has said it several times that he regrets it! and he wanted to end this nightmare that we are all living by pulling out after installing and arming a puppet force comprising of Iraqi's!

The problem is that from what we can gauge, the end result of this is not going to be pretty! iraq will become like Lebanon!

And I hate to say it, but we'll eventually and belatedly evacuate after a large scale terrorist attack! like the one that prompted Reagan to leave Beirut! Its a matter of time!

At least Kerry had the insight and wisdom to acknowledge a rotten situation, which Dubbya can never have because he is a bible fundo, just like Billy Graham the King Fundo, from whom he takes his God-damn inspiration! :mad:

Now the bible bigots and fundos will behave like their fundo counterparts did back in the 60's and 70's while they justified the Vietnam war :biggrin: :biggrin:

There is no justification for war "Donnie" :biggrin: Specially this war in 'Eye-raaq'! :biggrin:

Julie
04 Nov 04,, 02:46
It'll be okay Donnie, I heard Cheney say tonight that Bush now has a "Mandate." It scares me when Cheney says things because you never know what might be around the next corner, a clown, or an ogre.

Confed999
04 Nov 04,, 03:01
Point taken. But, you are the one that gave him the warnings.
He deserves them. He's the first person I've had to warn twice, and ask nicely a half dozen more times. Most people just stop using that kind of language when they're asked.

If he BANS anyone, I would be real SURPRISED.
I would hate to do it, and I would feel bad about doing it, but I would if I had to.

There is no justification for war
None? Ever?

Julie
04 Nov 04,, 03:08
I would hate to do it, and I would feel bad about doing it, but I would if I had to.

Excuse me, but I think that's what my meaning was when I said what I said.

Confed999
04 Nov 04,, 03:30
Excuse me, but I think that's what my meaning was when I said what I said.
I know, I was speaking to a quote from Ray. Don't be so defencive, I personally don't care what your politics are. I think both you and smilingassassin are letting things get under your skin, things that shouldn't really matter. This is supposed to be a fun place, a place to get information, to hear the opinions of others, and to discuss it all. Even in the things we think are the worst, we can come here and find solace at least in knowing others have similar views. That is one of the reasons I don't want lull to be banned for something as silly as foul language. He represents a minority of one, just as we all do, and he deserves to speak his mind, but he has no right to force us to listen to the racial/social slurs.

Julie
04 Nov 04,, 03:37
whatever

Confed999
04 Nov 04,, 03:39
whatever
You can be mad at me if you wish, but you have no real reason.

Julie
04 Nov 04,, 03:46
Don't be so defencive, I personally don't care what your politics are.


You can be mad at me if you wish, but you have no real reason.

I'm not....and I sure don't.

Donnie
04 Nov 04,, 03:50
First of all Donnie, let m ask you this...Are you 14 or 15?? :):


oooo, your so intellegent.


Now to answer your childish question, No!!!Kerry wanted us outta there period! He'd have gotten us out of there quick!

just back it up already.


Ask yourself that qustion pal.

im not your pal. i dont even know you.


Whyy Donnie?? Why???? :biggrin: Why would no one help us out in Iraq???

first off, thats just incorrect, and you know it. as far as france germany and russia? i dont know maybe thier cushy oil deals had something to do with it? i dont really know what all the political ramifications where, but i unlike you, am not going to pretend i know what france germany and russia where thinking. but the fact that you would believe whatever they said tends to make me wonder about agenda. i certainly didnt believe what they said, just as i certainly took everything bush said with a grain of salt.


because an illegal action on our part doesnot legitimise it! He reluctantly voted for it because he was pressured into it. And he has said it several times that he regrets it!

you are so foolish, he only regrets that we didnt try harder to get international support, he stiil said that he would not allow the UN to dictate in the end wether or not the US could go to war. your fooling yourself.


There is no justification for war "Donnie"

sorry you lost me here, as im sure you lost the majority of democrats, because almost all of them say that war with afghanistan was justified. your a party of 1 lull.

Donnie
04 Nov 04,, 03:52
It'll be okay Donnie,

excuse me? what will be ok?

Julie
04 Nov 04,, 04:06
excuse me? what will be ok?

Just trying to keep my chin up on the "day after." Cheney says Bush now has a Mandate....so everything will be alright now. Just trying to make everyone (including myself) feel more united, instead of divided, that's all. :)

smilingassassin
04 Nov 04,, 06:16
Whooooooooooa. Now, by gosh, we are getting somewhere ! I agree with that. :biggrin: Do tell, please share. :)

There are differences on what we agree on, in addition I disagree with a FEW things rumsfeld has done, you disagree with MOST things hes done. That being said, one of the things I'm conserned about, the disbandment of the Iraqi army, is tempered with lots of pro's and cons. Its a loss of manpower to secure Iraq, but would that manpower be making things worse due to its Bathist elements?

Would we even be having this discussion had the French and Germans entered the war, or if the UN was involved in the postwar reconstruction?

Fonnicker
04 Nov 04,, 06:52
There are differences on what we agree on, in addition I disagree with a FEW things rumsfeld has done, you disagree with MOST things hes done. That being said, one of the things I'm conserned about, the disbandment of the Iraqi army, is tempered with lots of pro's and cons. Its a loss of manpower to secure Iraq, but would that manpower be making things worse due to its Bathist elements?

Would we even be having this discussion had the French and Germans entered the war, or if the UN was involved in the postwar reconstruction?


If the french and germans were involved than it would suggest that there was a UN resolution involved, and at least in my opinion I would be fine with it. I have no problem committing our troops to action. None whatsoever, provided that there is just cause and UN support. As a whole, this country would be better off right now if we hadn't gone in alone. I doubt anyone hear can provide evidence to suggest that Saddam was in a position to pose a threat to our security at the time. We certainly could have used the funds spent in Iraq on the needs of the american people. Regardless the reputation or weaknesses of the UN, we helped to create it and it exists for a purpose. Just my opinion, but what purpose now can the UN hold? Clearly, we have made the statement to the world it doesn't matter to us what the UN says or does. How can we expect any other country to abide my them, friend or foe?

Officer of Engineers
04 Nov 04,, 08:20
Countries have been ignoring the UN since it began its inception, starting with the Korean War with two Asian powers directly challenging its legitimacy.

Soviet-Afghanistan, Iran-Iraq, Tanker War, Rwanda, Somalia to name a few that happenned without UN approval. In fact, the Kosovo War had no UN approval and UNPROFOR had to be replaced by IFOR/SFOR I & II in order to make the whole damned thing worked.

This is not the first time the UN got ignored nor would it be the last. The world moved on and the UN recovered and it will recovered from this.

Julie
04 Nov 04,, 14:44
There are differences on what we agree on, in addition I disagree with a FEW things rumsfeld has done, you disagree with MOST things hes done. That being said, one of the things I'm conserned about, the disbandment of the Iraqi army, is tempered with lots of pro's and cons. Its a loss of manpower to secure Iraq, but would that manpower be making things worse due to its Bathist elements?

Would we even be having this discussion had the French and Germans entered the war, or if the UN was involved in the postwar reconstruction?

I do not recall me going to any great length, on this forum, regarding my disagreements with Rumsfeld, just my general disagreement that there not being enough manpower on the ground in Iraq. I do know there was a "rift" between Rumsfeld and Powell, at the onset of the Iraq invasion, and it is my only GUESS, that it concerned this issue. The disbandment of the Iraqi army was due to, from my understanding, the corruptness from within that put US soldiers at much risk. Therefore, I agree to the disbandment of the Iraqi army on that issue, but was there a US or coalition regiment to take its place when that was done? That, I am unclear on.

Further, immediately after the invasion, humanitarian necessities had to be attended to, i.e., food, water, septic and waste systems, etc. My contention is that had the US allowed the UN to come in and provide these much needed necessities, it would have placed the US in a better situation to maintain ground security, which was a critical issue for the Iraqi people after this invasion. Had this been done more successfully, the support of the Iraqi people would have been greater in resisting the insurgents instead of some aiding them.

My standing is that there are alot more issues in this war invasion than just the fighting itself. Had the US not shunned the countries that did not help the US with the invasion, does not mean they could not have aided tremendously in the post-war. More post-war aid would have been a tremendous help to the US, since it would have furthered our agenda on the ground in a more successful way. A war in that region effects many nations in the area in a negative way, and those effected should be given the opportunity to aid in the stabilization process. I strongly feel that locking out the French and Germans after the US invasion of Iraq, was no better decision-making than the French announcing a Veto at the UN regarding this war. It is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

lulldapull
04 Nov 04,, 16:17
oooo, your so intellegent.



just back it up already.



im not your pal. i dont even know you.



first off, thats just incorrect, and you know it. as far as france germany and russia? i dont know maybe thier cushy oil deals had something to do with it? i dont really know what all the political ramifications where, but i unlike you, am not going to pretend i know what france germany and russia where thinking. but the fact that you would believe whatever they said tends to make me wonder about agenda. i certainly didnt believe what they said, just as i certainly took everything bush said with a grain of salt.



you are so foolish, he only regrets that we didnt try harder to get international support, he stiil said that he would not allow the UN to dictate in the end wether or not the US could go to war. your fooling yourself.



sorry you lost me here, as im sure you lost the majority of democrats, because almost all of them say that war with afghanistan was justified. your a party of 1 lull.

AaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhaAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAA

I can just picture lill Donnie sittin at his Computer at home hackin away :biggrin:

Donnie now you remind us all here of a character of Ameer Kiani ( The terror boy) from another forum!! :biggrin: but your'e the exact opposite of him in your allegiances! :) But essentially the same fruit!


Well before we even go in your insolent reponse, let us know that is that your 'guardian Angel" in your avatar??? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Be-careful there 'Donnie"....looks like all that Church going is affecting your sensibilities here!........ :biggrin:

Is that a hermaphorodite??? or is it me that it appears as a very androgenous yet curvacious 'angel'??? :biggrin: :biggrin:

Comeon now Donnie you can tell us what it is....... :rolleyes:

:biggrin: :biggrin:

P.S. Hey you didn't tell us your age? 16?, isn't that right on the money?? :biggrin:

Julie
04 Nov 04,, 16:41
Donnie now you remind us all here of a character of Ameer Kiani ( The terror boy) from another forum!! :biggrin: but your'e the exact opposite of him in your allegiances! :) But essentially the same fruit!
Omg, I hope you are wrong about that lull. Someone was just asking me a couple of weeks back if I had known what ever happened to the little terror.

lulldapull
04 Nov 04,, 17:49
Omg, I hope you are wrong about that lull. Someone was just asking me a couple of weeks back if I had known what ever happened to the little terror.


:biggrin: :biggrin:
OHMG didn't you hear what happened to our little 'packi' terror boy??? :biggrin:

His daddy shipped his ass back to 'pak-land' so he wont get spoiled ( westernised ) growing up here among us "heathens"! :biggrin: :biggrin:

these god-damn mouzlum types never cease to amaze me! They are very selective in what they choose to pick and adopt from our 'evil' western culture! :biggrin: :biggrin:

So the last reports are that 'terror boy' now sits in some madraasa in Isloo, and pumps cheese with the local (wahabbi) mulla! :biggrin: And the last i heard is that he taches "English" to them budding mulla's in his islamic class, while they teach him about the softer side of 'man-hood' :biggrin:

What a God-damn end tohis carreer! But don't be surprised if his name turns up on CNN in some bizzarre plot to get even with us :)

I heard his daddy was a pretty 'conservative' fundo type (Beardo) in D.C. ( just like these Republicans)!! :biggrin:

lulldapull
04 Nov 04,, 18:21
Reality check for 'Smilling kiddo', and his young buddy 'Donnie'! :) From now on, I'll keep em updated on the developments in iraq on a daily basis, just so they don't lose trackof reality, and go on having wet- dreams in their delusional little fundo world! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:


6 foreigners abducted in Iraq

BAGHDAD, Nov 3: Six more foreigners were kidnapped and a US soldier died in a roadside bomb in another day of mayhem on Wednesday, as Iraqis tracked the news that George W. Bush has won another term as US president.

The life of an Irish-born woman aid worker hung in the balance after her kidnappers threatened to hand her to a group led by Iraq's most wanted man Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, and a senior oil ministry official was shot dead.

The violence came as news broke that Democratic challenger Senator John Kerry conceded the cliff-hanger US presidential election, which has closely focused on Washington's decision to invade Iraq and the chaos that ensued.

Some Iraqi officials, however, welcomed the Bush victory, while Prime Minister Iyad Allawi said he would have happily worked with either candidate.

"We know that Bush has an overall vision for Iraq, he overthrew Saddam Hussein and liberated the country and Ithink he wants to see the job done," said Muwaffaq al-Rubaie, a special adviser to the interim government.

Opinion was more divided on the streets of Baghdad, with Iraq's Shia majority, who suffered the most under Saddam, cheering the outcome, while many Sunni Muslims groaned in dismay. A wave of violence that followed last year's US-led invasion claimed more victims on Wednesday.

Five Jordanians, most of them truck drivers, were reported kidnapped, while a US-Lebanese contractor was captured at gunpoint from an upmarket district in Baghdad and Al-Qaeda-linked militants posted a website video showing the beheading of a man they said was a senior Iraqi army officer.

One US soldier was killed and another wounded when a roadside bomb hit an army patrol southeast of the capital, bringing to 1,117 the number of US military personnel killed in Iraq since the war, according to a Pentagon tally.

At least nine people were also injured in another car bombing on the main road to Baghdad airport.-AFP

Donnie
04 Nov 04,, 19:24
Well before we even go in your insolent reponse, let us know that is that your 'guardian Angel" in your avatar??? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

no, its a female fairy, a painting i did for my wife, did you like it? you can find the larger version on web site,as well as many other paintings of mine, hey maybe i picked up a new fan?


Be-careful there 'Donnie"....looks like all that Church going is affecting your sensibilities here!........ :biggrin:

Is that a hermaphorodite??? or is it me that it appears as a very androgenous yet curvacious 'angel'??? :biggrin: :biggrin:

you cant actualy adress my response, so you attack my artwork? last i heard they dont allow fairys in church :)


Comeon now Donnie you can tell us what it is....... :rolleyes:

interesting, you still havent adress my post, all you can do is try to insult me, very childish, as i said before it is a fairy i painted for my wife.


P.S. Hey you didn't tell us your age? 16?, isn't that right on the money?? :biggrin:

if you have really have read any of my post you would know im married with 3 children, my oldest is 5. what is your obsession with my age? are you flirting? anyway im over 30.

and here i am at the end of your little rant, and all you managed to do was try to attack me personaly instead of adressing my post. your a sad little man.

lulldapull
04 Nov 04,, 19:47
no, its a female fairy, a painting i did for my wife, did you like it? you can find the larger version on web site,as well as many other paintings of mine, hey maybe i picked up a new fan?



you cant actualy adress my response, so you attack my artwork? last i heard they dont allow fairys in church :)



interesting, you still havent adress my post, all you can do is try to insult me, very childish, as i said before it is a fairy i painted for my wife.



if you have really have read any of my post you would know im married with 3 children, my oldest is 5. what is your obsession with my age? are you flirting? anyway im over 30.

and here i am at the end of your little rant, and all you managed to do was try to attack me personaly instead of adressing my post. your a sad little man.


For our buddy 'Donnnie' apparently the chronological age does not correspond wel with mental age! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Donnie don't kid yourself buddy, my reponse is up above! Read up! Kerry wanted out of Iraq! Democrats were not interested i invasion of Iraq! Kerry has repeatedly said publicly that he would have given the UN more of a chance, and even if that didn't work he would not have put or soldiers in harms way.

now with your bible bigot for a president ( Someone I am personally ashamed to call my president ) is having a field day because ppl like you, yes you pal, the rural, un-educated and republican under-belly of America are dying every day, and no one gives a rats ass about it. :)

Hey Donnie, keep that in mind , I will keep this thread alive and well until the day Bush pulls out of Iraq! :) and then I willa sk you... was it worth it? :biggrin: :biggrin:

smilingassassin
04 Nov 04,, 19:54
For our buddy 'Donnnie' apparently the chronological age does not correspond wel with mental age! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Donnie don't kid yourself buddy, my reponse is up above! Read up! Kerry wanted out of Iraq! Democrats were not interested i invasion of Iraq! Kerry has repeatedly said publicly that he would have given the UN more of a chance, and even if that didn't work he would not have put or soldiers in harms way.

now with your bible bigot for a president ( Someone I am personally ashamed to call my president ) is having a field day because ppl like you, yes you pal, the rural, un-educated and republican under-belly of America are dying every day, and no one gives a rats ass about it. :)

Hey Donnie, keep that in mind , I will keep this thread alive and well until the day Bush pulls out of Iraq! :) and then I willa sk you... was it worth it? :biggrin: :biggrin:

Lull you should take your own advice and read up, and I don't no how many more times you need to be asked to tone down the racial slurs and swearing before you acctually use common sence and comply. Maybe you should join some islamic site and preach there....

Donnie
04 Nov 04,, 20:15
For our buddy 'Donnnie' apparently the chronological age does not correspond wel with mental age! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin

and im somehow supposed to take you serriously?


Donnie don't kid yourself buddy, my reponse is up above! Read up! Kerry wanted out of Iraq! Democrats were not interested i invasion of Iraq! Kerry has repeatedly said publicly that he would have given the UN more of a chance, and even if that didn't work he would not have put or soldiers in harms way.

all i ask is for you to back it up, show me where he said, hell i didnt even say he didnt say, i just asked you to back it, or maybe you would just rather make personal insults than have an intellegent conversation.



is having a field day because ppl like you, yes you pal, the rural, un-educated and republican under-belly of America are dying every day, and no one gives a rats ass about it. :)

first off, not your pal, second i live in a city, third i have a degree, forth im not a republican, fifth i do give a rats ass, i just disagree with you on wether or not kerry would pull out troops in iraq, i have never heard him quoted as saying he would pull out the troops, not anywhere near imedeiatly

why you feel the need to make personal insults escapes me, maybe you can explain.

lulldapull
04 Nov 04,, 20:28
Lull you should take your own advice and read up, and I don't no how many more times you need to be asked to tone down the racial slurs and swearing before you acctually use common sence and comply. Maybe you should join some islamic site and preach there....


:biggrin: Oh.... Now lets see, Being an American and expresing my opposition to an illegal war in Iraq ( A war of aggression) somehow automatically constitutes me joining some Islamic site? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

You'r a joker Smilling kiddo! :biggrin: :biggrin:

Donnie
04 Nov 04,, 20:48
:biggrin: Oh.... Now lets see, Being an American and expresing my opposition ...........:

maybe if you did it without the racial slurs and personal insults?

lulldapull
04 Nov 04,, 20:56
maybe if you did it without the racial slurs and personal insults?


Donnie I have posted at least 10 articles clearly outlining that Kerry will pull out from iraq! Kerry himself has never made it into a classified after thought either!

Every 2 cent service person you talk to he would inadvertantly and shamelessly vomit it right out that ; "yeah "he'll bring them home"! :mad:

just like your buddy Confed was arguing with me that what makes the iraq war "Illegal" where is the proof that iraq had no WMD's???

Well he got his answer! Bush/ powell and Chenney lied to all of us, and now we are in a war we can't win!

I blame the Neocon serpents, Wolfowitz, Richard Pearle, and Armitage for this situation.

you can keep asking for proof even when we pull out from there which will do pretty soon, considering how absolutely deplorabe the conditions are in that country for everyone..

Donnie
04 Nov 04,, 21:56
Donnie I have posted at least 10 articles clearly outlining that Kerry will pull out from iraq! Kerry himself has never made it into a classified after thought either!

i dont search your other post, i only have the couple of strings that we have been discussing, if you can call what you do a discussion, i havnt seen you post any articles clearly outlining kerry's iraq pull out. i have seen a 4 year plan of his that would pull troops out after iraq was stabilized, but what the hell does than mean? stabalize?

lull, you can keep running your mouth thinking im your enemy, insult my intelligence, insult my mentality, insult my education, insult my art even, but really lull, im not attacking you, your the one on attack mode.


you can keep asking for proof

hey whatever, i just asked you to back up your statment that kerry was going to pull out of iraq, the question was asked, you didnt answere, i wont ask again, ill just have to believe you dont have anything to back it up.

Donnie
04 Nov 04,, 23:19
Just trying to keep my chin up on the "day after." Cheney says Bush now has a Mandate....so everything will be alright now. Just trying to make everyone (including myself) feel more united, instead of divided, that's all. :)

ok, not sure what a mandate has to do with everything being alright, or what it has to do with me, but if its unitity your looking for, im all for it.

smilingassassin
05 Nov 04,, 06:34
:biggrin: Oh.... Now lets see, Being an American and expresing my opposition to an illegal war in Iraq ( A war of aggression) somehow automatically constitutes me joining some Islamic site? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

You'r a joker Smilling kiddo! :biggrin: :biggrin:
1) your freedom of speach is sadly (for you that is) limited by what the moderators will tolerate
2) the war was not illegal, only illegal to defeatists like you.
3) you don't have to join an islamic website, you bring the propoganda with you where ever you go....

Julie
05 Nov 04,, 15:19
:biggrin: :biggrin:
OHMG didn't you hear what happened to our little 'packi' terror boy??? :biggrin:

His daddy shipped his ass back to 'pak-land' so he wont get spoiled ( westernised ) growing up here among us "heathens"! :biggrin: :biggrin:

these god-damn mouzlum types never cease to amaze me! They are very selective in what they choose to pick and adopt from our 'evil' western culture! :biggrin: :biggrin:

So the last reports are that 'terror boy' now sits in some madraasa in Isloo, and pumps cheese with the local (wahabbi) mulla! :biggrin: And the last i heard is that he taches "English" to them budding mulla's in his islamic class, while they teach him about the softer side of 'man-hood' :biggrin:

What a God-damn end tohis carreer! But don't be surprised if his name turns up on CNN in some bizzarre plot to get even with us :)

I heard his daddy was a pretty 'conservative' fundo type (Beardo) in D.C. ( just like these Republicans)!! :biggrin:


Ha-ha....that really makes my day to know that's where that little jerk ended up. Today is my birthday......and thank you for my present, it is the best. :biggrin:

lulldapull
05 Nov 04,, 15:23
1) your freedom of speach is sadly (for you that is) limited by what the moderators will tolerate
2) the war was not illegal, only illegal to defeatists like you.
3) you don't have to join an islamic website, you bring the propoganda with you where ever you go....


:biggrin: :biggrin:

oh ohhh........ :eek: .............. :eek: watch out ppl! we got a virulent one here....

With a name like 'Smilling Assasin' boy you strike fear into our hearts! I am so scared "Smilling"

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Joker :biggrin:

lulldapull
05 Nov 04,, 15:28
Ha-ha....that really makes my day to know that's where that little jerk ended up. Today is my birthday......and thank you for my present, it is the best. :biggrin:


Hey Happy birthday! :)

But yeah thats what I last know of our old buddy " Terror boy"!

Now he'll be back herein the States in about a 3 years or so! :) See the Mouzlums cme back to the U.S. because they don't want to stay in their own 'failed Islamic countries'!

:biggrin: :biggrin:

So unfortunately he will eventually come back after of course he's been force wedded ( Arrange married ) to a submissive fundo house wife type, in a totally disfunctional union! :)

Julie
05 Nov 04,, 18:35
Hey Happy birthday! :) Thank you. :)


So unfortunately he will eventually come back after of course he's been force wedded ( Arrange married ) to a submissive fundo house wife type, in a totally disfunctional union! :)

That's even better to know.....my day can't get much better. :biggrin:

smilingassassin
05 Nov 04,, 20:04
:biggrin: :biggrin:

oh ohhh........ :eek: .............. :eek: watch out ppl! we got a virulent one here....

With a name like 'Smilling Assasin' boy you strike fear into our hearts! I am so scared "Smilling"

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Joker :biggrin:

Your usual incohearant responce....

Confed999
06 Nov 04,, 02:22
Democrats were not interested i invasion of Iraq!
December 5, 2001
The Honorable George W. Bush President of the United States The White House Washington, D.C. 20500
Dear Mr. President:
The events of September 11 have highlighted the vulnerability of the United States to determined terrorists. As we work to clean up Afghanistan and destroy al Qaeda, it is imperative that we plan to eliminate the threat from Iraq.
This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf war status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.
For much of the last year, the Administration has struggled to plug loopholes in the international sanctions against Iraq. Unfortunately, efforts to coopt Saddam's illegal trading partners -- particularly Syria -- have failed. In the meantime, the illegal oil trade from Iraq has flourished, and Saddam now earns an estimated $2 billion annually, much of which he has devoted to his military and his illegal weapons programs.
If we have learned one thing from the ongoing battle in Afghanistan, it is that working effectively in coordination with locals on the ground can significantly leverage our own use of military farce. While we have no doubt that in the long run, the United States will always prevail in battle with the likes of the Taliban (not to speak of Saddam Hussein), we also know that we can minimize casualties and shorten conflict by cooperating with opposition forces. That has been a key element of U.S. strategy for several decades.
Since the passage of the Iraq Liberation Act three years ago, we have fought to provide support for Iraqis inside Iraq. The Iraqi National Congress (INC), an umbrella group of all the significant anti-Saddam forces inside Iraq, has consistently requested Administration assistance for operations on the ground in Iraq ranging from the delivery of humanitarian assistance and information-gathering to military and technical training and lethal military drawdown.
Despite the express wishes of the Congress, the INC has been denied U.S. assistance for any operations inside any part of Iraq, including liberated Kurdish areas. Instead, successive Administrations have funded conferences, offices and other intellectual exercises that have done little more than expose the INC to accusations of being "limousine insurgents" and "armchair guerillas". We note the troubling similarity of these accusations to charges made against the Afghan guerillas now helping us win the war against the Taliban.
The threat from Iraq is real, and it cannot be permanently contained. For as long as Saddam Hussein is in power in Baghdad, he will seek to acquire weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them. We have no doubt that these deadly weapons are intended for use against the United States and its allies. Consequently, we believe we must directly confront Saddam, sooner rather than later. Without allies on the ground inside Iraq, we will be handicapping our own efforts. Each day that passes costs us an opportunity to unite and professionalize the Iraqi opposition, thus ensuring it will be less capable when the conflict begins.
Again, we can learn from our experience in Afghanistan. We cannot be drawn into the ethnic politics of any particular nation, but should find a way to work with all the opposition in a unified framework. The Iraqi National Congress is the only umbrella organization comprising all elements of the Iraqi opposition. No one group is excluded, no one group is favored.
Mr. President, all indications are that in the interest of our own national security, Saddam Hussein must be removed from power. Let us maximize the likelihood of a rapid victory by beginning immediately to assist the Iraqi opposition on the ground inside Iraq by providing them money and assistance already authorized and appropriated.
We look forward to working with you on this most important matter.
Sincerely,
(signed) John McCain
(signed) Jesse Helms
(signed) Henry Hyde
(signed) Richard Shelby
(signed) Harold Ford, Jr.
(signed) Joe Lieberman
(signed) Trend Lott
(signed) Ben Gilman
(signed) Sam Brownback