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tarek
25 Oct 04,, 18:30
Apocalypse tomorrow
Beware the self-fulfilling prophesies of millenarians

By Mahmoud Sadri and Ahmad Sadri
May 18, 2004


By the time Sayyid Qotb, the intellectual grandfather of radical Islam and, according to some, the forbearer of Al-Qaeda, sailed into New York harbor in 1948 as an envoy of Egypt's Public Instruction Ministry, he had already formed an opinion about the corruption and godlessness of the West. Qotb witnessed what he regarded as licentiousness among his European and American shipmates, and further observations in America seemed to confirm those initial impressions. He returned to Egypt convinced that irreligion lay at the root of Western decadence.

In passing judgment, however, Qotb behaved like one of the fumbling visitors in the Rumi fable: Touching the limb of an elephant in a dark chamber, he wrongly presumed to know the shape of the whole beast.

In fact, under a coating of secularism and pluralism, America has always been a religious nation. The propaganda of Islamists notwithstanding, the problem with how the United States conducts its foreign policy today is not too little, but too much religion. The behavior of the US is better understood by its zealous religiosity rather than by its constitutional secularism.
The American colonies were first settled by religious devotees, or "pilgrims," who found 17th-century Britain too godless for their taste. They set out to establish a "New Jerusalem" in the new continent. Ever since, the will to fashion the US in the image of a Christian "shining city on the hill" and to carry out the will of God in the world have been present in the political DNA of the country.

The remnants of an old utopian Christianity survive among such groups as the Amish, the Hutterites and the Mennonites, and entirely new Christian sects, such as the Mormons, the Southern Baptists and the Jehovah's Witnesses, were founded in the US. These sects believe in the pivotal role of America in God's plan for the salvation of the world.

It is not only the eccentric fringe but also the mainstream of American society that continues to profess religious faith. Sociological surveys portray the US as the second most religious country in the world. Christian fundamentalism was conceived there in the three decades before Sayyid Qotb set foot on its shores.

Scandalized by the laxity of the Christian liberal theology of their time, a group of Baptists chose five basic tenets as the "fundamentals" of Christianity and identified those who did not share them as "non-Christian." Millenarian and utopian in nature, "fundamentalism" quickly grew. Having suffered temporary defeat in the famous 1925 "Monkey Trial" (when John Scopes, a Tennessee biology teacher, was charged with illegally teaching what was considered the un-Christian Darwinian theory of evolution), fundamentalists regrouped in "nondenominational" evangelical organizations, making a visible comeback in the last quarter of the 20th century.

It is estimated that there are 17 million die-hard fundamentalist Christians in the United States and another 70 million closely affiliated with Christian neo-orthodoxy. The core believers are highly motivated and organized. Ever since the days of former presidents Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan, evangelical political Christianity's influence on government has been discernable. However, it was with the election of George W. Bush that adherents of Protestant neo-orthodoxy openly claimed to have installed one of their own in the Oval Office.

Today, fundamentalist Christianity appears in the guise of highly organized and lavishly funded political pro-Israel formations, which are described as "Christian Zionist." They attract senior officials, such as Attorney General John Ashcroft, to their conventions, and their electoral clout is such that the US government heeds their political agenda in the Middle East and kowtows to their wishes in implementing such policies as the "global gag rule" that denies funding to many family planning agencies of the United Nations.

Nor has the US invasion of Iraq been absolutely free from fundamentalist influences. When asked by an interviewer if he had consulted with his father about the invasion of Iraq, Bush responded: "I consulted with a higher father."

An important aspect of fundamentalist resurgence in America is its belief in divine deliverance at the hands of an avenging messiah. A set of beliefs, known as "Bible prophecies," based on a relatively recent interpretation of the New Testament's Book of Revelations, predicts a chain of events leading to a bloody end of the world and the second coming of Jesus Christ. To gauge the reach of this creed one need only note that the works of two of its advocates, Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins, enjoy a staggering circulation of more than 20 million copies in the US.

Why should the rest of us care about religious views of a few million Christians in America? Because Bible prophecy may very well become self-fulfilling prophecy. Religious predictions of the end of the world are not exclusive to Christianity; nor are they always self-fulfilling - or else we wouldn't be here to question them. Only under certain conditions are such beliefs likely to affect the actual course of history.

The danger is that those conditions obtain in the case of American millenarians. Millions of politically organized and single-minded believers have come to expect that the world will end in a devastating global war within their lifetime. They do not merely attempt to read political developments around the world as signs of the fulfillment of their end-of-time scenario. They also try to stir these events in the direction of their chiliastic scenario of an impending Armageddon using their considerable political influence in US. Hence there is cause to fear that eager and resourceful "end-of-timers" may, indeed, "will" worldwide strife into existence.

It goes without saying that these biblical interpretations of world events are utterly unverifiable or, in the words of philosopher Karl Popper, "unfalsifiable." Whenever a prophecy fails to match the unfolding reality, it is either shelved or amended. Twice in the last 25 years, these prophecies have failed, with no apparent ill effect on their believers. Famous televangelists hailed the Israeli occupation of southern Lebanon in the early 1980s as the final realization of biblical predictions. Understandably, they chose not to cover the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000.

Similarly, the role of the former USSR and its satellites, initially determined by the champions of Bible prophecy to be the main opponents of Israel in the battle of Armageddon, were quietly recast after the collapse of the communist bloc. In the updated version, Muslims appear as the devil's minions confronting the army of God in that crucial battle. The part of the antichrist has been rewritten as a Muslim.

End-of-timers, millenarians and fundamentalists envision a bleak and bloody future for humanity. Deeming a global catastrophe inevitable for their rapture and salvation, they work to bring it about. Nowadays they have the ears and hearts of a powerful elite in the world's formidable superpower. The sooner we perceive their menace, the better we can expose and isolate them among a majority of American Christians, who peacefully adhere to their faith. What Bush wisely said of Islam is also true of the faith he professes: Christianity is a religion of peace.

Author

Mahmoud Sadri and Ahmad Sadri are brothers. Mahmoud is Associate Professor of Sociology at Texas Women's University. He has a doctorate in sociology from New York's New School for Social Research. Ahmad Sadri is Professor and Chairman of the Department of Sociology and Anthropology at Lake Forest College, IL, USA.

Fonnicker
25 Oct 04,, 18:45
I seems that "humanity" will always see what it wants to see. We can take random events and twist them to conform with prophecy. Nostrodamus (sp?) is a perfect example. Generalizations are easily manipulated to fit almost any situation. Didn't they try to paste Saddam into nostradamus' evil man from the ME that will throw the world into it's final great battle and eventual destruction?

smilingassassin
25 Oct 04,, 22:55
Yes saddam was one of a few names linked to the name "Mabus" (pronounced Maboos), some Nostrodamus enthusiastes translate Mabus into Hasam, and more spacifically Sadam (one d) or Arafat. I'm unaware of the methods they use to translate the names but the ones mentioned are unsettling to say the least.
I agree though, prophecy is sometimes subject to enterpretation, and several Nostrodamus prophecy's have been wrong. They may have been translated wrong however, who knows?

lemontree
26 Oct 04,, 07:02
Apocalypse tomorrow
Beware the self-fulfilling prophesies of millenarians

Author

Mahmoud Sadri and Ahmad Sadri are brothers. Mahmoud is Associate Professor of Sociology at Texas Women's University. He has a doctorate in sociology from New York's New School for Social Research. Ahmad Sadri is Professor and Chairman of the Department of Sociology and Anthropology at Lake Forest College, IL, USA.

The authors have tried to show that just like islamic terrorism exists, christian terrorism exists. They have taken great pains to show how evil the christian world is. They fail to realise that christian fundamentalists fund and run projects that provide education, health care and human resource development. Christian fundamentalists do not blow themselves up and other non-christians and say that they are God's soldiers. Christianity does not say kill the non-believers, but spread the word of God. But islam says that by killing one non-muslim the person has a place reserved in heaven with the 72 virgins.

The authors, have failed to realise that it is the christian world that has allowed them the freedom to write the above article. Had they written a similar islamic related article in the muslim world, their heads would have been chopped off before the end of May 2004 (the article was dated 14 May 2004).

tarek
26 Oct 04,, 14:40
Lemon


What the authors have infact tried to do is point out the danger of the millenarian mindset and that such as mind set is not exclusive to muslims and Islam.

The authors do not make a comparison of virtues of millenarians among muslims and christians, other than to point out the danger of such a mind set, particularly for those for whom millenarian prophesies present a existential threat.

A critique of the message and not the messengers is appropriate. Are you arguing for a millenarian mindset? Ought policy be influenced by such a mind set? If yes, what beef can you have with the millenarian outlook of extremists from other religions who seek a "final conflict" to cleanse the world??

lemontree
27 Oct 04,, 06:31
tarek

I am not arguing for the millenarian mindset. They are a very, very insignificant minority in of the christian world (in fact until I read the above article, I did'nt even know that such a sect existed). It has no relevance. There are prophecies of other religions which will shock most decent peace loving muslims, which the authors have ignored or are ignorant about.

The article seems to try and show the extemist side of an insignificant sect and its belief. It is trying to show that just as Islam is getting a bad name due to islamic driven terrorism, even christianity has its extremist elements. It is an attempt at that and nothing else. I don't deny that there are christian fundamentalists, but they are toned down and silenced by the vast majority. They are not the power house. But in Islam the fundamentalists are the power house (for example Iranian mullas, Saudi ruling class, the various 'liberation' organisations etc).

Prodigal Son
27 Oct 04,, 06:46
The authors have tried to show that just like islamic terrorism exists, christian terrorism exists. They have taken great pains to show how evil the christian world is. They fail to realise that christian fundamentalists fund and run projects that provide education, health care and human resource development.

hmmm...So do muslim charities. Islamic charities are the main providers of social welfare provision in the non-oil rich Arab world.



Christian fundamentalists do not blow themselves up and other non-christians and say that they are God's soldiers. Christianity does not say kill the non-believers, but spread the word of God. But islam says that by killing one non-muslim the person has a place reserved in heaven with the 72 virgins.

Ah....abortion clinic bombers? Check out the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda for a particularly nasty fundie Christian terror group.



The authors, have failed to realise that it is the christian world that has allowed them the freedom to write the above article. Had they written a similar islamic related article in the muslim world, their heads would have been chopped off before the end of May 2004 (the article was dated 14 May 2004).

Ah...no, it is the civil liberties provided by liberal democracy, not "christianity" per se. John Calvin spread his "good news" with the flame when he needed to supress dissent. Fundamentalist christians in the US aren't violent, for the most part, because they are firmly inbedded within a larger, far stronger democratic society that so punishes violence while providing enough beneits to peaceful behavior as to make violence a bad choice.

Check out: www.theocracywatch.org/ for a good run down of the role of radical christianity in today's US politics.

tarek
27 Oct 04,, 16:32
"I don't deny that there are christian fundamentalists, but they are toned down and silenced by the vast majority"

Toned down and silenced ? I would differ, indeed, they are increasingly the spearhead of cultural revolution in American society -- That you have become aware of the power of the evangelical's millenarian message after the read of the article posted above, does not mean that the millenarian mindset is a fringe in the US, indeed, there may be any number of things you or I may not be awre of, this does not mean that they are fringe, toned down or silenced.

I do understand the comparison between the millenarian views you are seeking to make, whatever their superficial difference, a catastrophic cleansing and the salvation of the millenarians is common to both sets of millenarians, both in Islam and especially in certain protestant demoninations in the US..

I would encourage a more rounded, more balanced exanibation of the premises the authors have forwarded, especially in the context of the following:

"How Civilizations Look at Each other?

The interaction of civilizations or indeed all culturally different groups goes through a number of stages which I will represent through an visual metaphor. We have to care about the lenses through which we choose to view the other.

A. Tunnel Vision: At the most rudimentary stages of inter-cultural understanding the vision of the other is obtained through a single opening into the exotic world. The resulting picture is not only vague but also limited and one sided. As an approach that exaggerates the difference, it can hardly encourage the observer to find parallels in ones own culture for the derogatory or laudatory characters attributed to the other. Nor is there any attempt to approach the self-understanding of the other. Worst of all there is ample evidence to suggest psychological projections play a significant role in this way of viewing the other. Thus our tunnel-vision portrayals of the other reveal, more than anything else, reflect our own neuroses.

B. Double Vision: The next stage in understanding the other comes with the realization that each civilization including our own is a complex and enclosed universe of meaning and that it is unfair to perceive a foreign culture by only one of its aspects. This recognition is the first requirement of the science of anthropology. The methods of living among the natives for long periods and suspending all judgments about them were adopted by the forerunners of modern anthropology. Armchair verdicts about the virtues and vices of "savagery" were thus shelved in favor of a value- neutral investigation and careful cataloguing of the varieties of cultural universes.

This "relativistic" stage represents a real advance over tunnel vision and a radical reversal of common ethnic prejudices. Yet, it can not be considered the ideal cognitive spring board for ethnic coexistence. Like tunnel vision, double vision is a neurological disorder. It is caused by the inability of the brain to superimpose the two pictures relayed by the eyes to create a single perspective. The picture produced by one eye lacks depth, but seeing double causes confusion. Yet, cultural relativism remains a necessity at the beginning of the ethnographic research. For those with an interest in ethnic coexistence the creation of fairly objective portrayals of the other is a necessary step.

C. Depth Perception: In the perception of a normal person a superimposing of the pictures provided by the eyes produces an integrated, three dimensional view of the world. Now, by a grand leap of logic --complements of our marvelous metaphor-- we land in the field of ethnic relations.

We must start with a picture of the "self" by a specific reading of the evolution of our own civilization. Then we produce a picture of the other, using careful historical, ethnological and sociological tools at our disposal. Ideally we must be able to overlay the two pictures and arrive at a unified view. Like games of optical illusion, this picture will allow us to look at it twice and see different things each time. It may even let the two stories to merge into one, allowing us to read our own history as if it belonged to the other and vice versa.

Studying the history of any nation including our own would be a boring affair if we did not pause to ponder the question: "What would have happened if?" Why not use this tool in the study of inter-ethnic relations? Why not read the different histories of the various ethnic entities, whether within a single civilization or across them, as if they were the same story with different endings? I think that we can utilize these methods in inter-ethnic dialogue to gain a new perspective on, or probably "see through," our obdurate differences.

If we look at our own history as a different version of others' we will understand it in a new light. Reading the history of others as our own story with a twist, leads to a more sympathetic reading. This method allows us to see many similarities between distinct identities and break down many differences to their common elements. We might be only just a historical accident away from the fate of our neighbors.

Sometimes intended or unintended consequence of a reform, an invasion or even a natural disaster at a sensitive historical moment makes all the difference in the world. Comparing the destinies of nations within civilizational frameworks to determine whether and to what extent their various possibilities and potentials are actualized can be more than a clever way of understanding their course; it may be a good foundation for coexistence as well."

From:" Echoes of Kierkegaard and Locke" by Ahmad Sadri

lemontree
28 Oct 04,, 06:30
tarek

Thats heavy intellectual stuff man. Go a little slow :).

lemontree
28 Oct 04,, 06:45
hmmm...So do muslim charities. Islamic charities are the main providers of social welfare provision in the non-oil rich Arab world.

Really?... You mean to tell me that all the charities that are set up for Kashmir by the Saudis and ****stanis so for that purpose. You are wrong, they go to provide for the jihadis and their weapons. Please give me some referrence links for such charities. To prove your point give a collection of names, and not isolated cases.




Ah....abortion clinic bombers? Check out the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda for a particularly nasty fundie Christian terror group.

How many abortion clinics have been bombed?...again don't give isolated examples. About the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda. They are a guerilla organisation set up by the Sudanese regime in retaliation for Uganda's help to the SPLA (Sudan Peoples Liberation Army). The purpose of the Lords Resistance army is to take orders from the Sudan army and cause problems for the Ugandans, so that the support to SPLA is reduced or stopped. The Christian image is just a front. Please don't give irrelavant examples if you don't know the back ground of a conflict.




Ah...no, it is the civil liberties provided by liberal democracy, not "christianity" per se.

Agreed, but I dont see similar civil liberties in the Islamic world.



radical christianity in today's US politics.
....there I agree with you. It does exist, and lets hope it does not become rabid.

Prodigal Son
28 Oct 04,, 23:32
Really?... You mean to tell me that all the charities that are set up for Kashmir by the Saudis and ****stanis so for that purpose.

You know, you're an idiot. Most of the schooling and healthcare provided in Egypt and other non-oil-rich Arab/Muslim countries are provided by religious groups. Some put more emphasis on religious doctrine than others. I'm not disputing the link between Wahhabist madrassas and terrorism, just noting that you cannot lump together all Islamic terror groups as terrorist.




You are wrong, they go to provide for the jihadis and their weapons. Please give me some referrence links for such charities. To prove your point give a collection of names, and not isolated cases.

Sigh....

after inputting "Islamic Charities" in Yahoo's search engine I came up with several. Click here to see:

http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/Religion_and_Spirituality/Faiths_and_Practices/Islam/Organizations/Charities/

I'm amused at your demand I prove my point. Please prove to me, with names, NOT ISOLATED CASES, that all Islamic charities are terrorist organizations. But, hey, fear mongers never really have to prove anything now do they?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodigal Son
Ah....abortion clinic bombers? Check out the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda for a particularly nasty fundie Christian terror group.


How many abortion clinics have been bombed?...again don't give isolated examples.

If you read and understood my post you would have realized there are ONLY isolated incidents of fundie christian terror in the US precisely because of the society in which they live. That does not mean, however, that fundie christians are not incapable of using violence to further their own ends. My point is that fundie christians are just as capable of using violence as Islamic fundies.



About the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda. They are a guerilla organisation set up by the Sudanese regime in retaliation for Uganda's help to the SPLA (Sudan Peoples Liberation Army). The purpose of the Lords Resistance army is to take orders from the Sudan army and cause problems for the Ugandans, so that the support to SPLA is reduced or stopped. The Christian image is just a front.

See below



Please don't give irrelavant examples if you don't know the back ground of a conflict.

Does the leader fight under the banner of Christian fundamentalism? Yes or No? That he gets support from Sudan is unsurprising. Every "country" in the regions supports a whole cluster**** of insurgencies.




http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/lra.htm

The Lord's Resistance Army (LRA), led by Joseph Kony, operates in the north from bases in southern Sudan. More concerned with destabilising northern Uganda from bases in Sudan, the LRA has linked up with Interahamwe and anti-RCD rebels around the Bunia area.

Some have accused Sudan of supporting the LRA because Uganda allegedly supports the Sudan People's Liberation Army, the rebel movement fighting against the Sudan government. Sudanese officials have denied supporting the LRA. However, relations between the two countries have improved in recent years. In 1999, Sudan and Uganda signed an agreement under which Sudan said it would stop aiding the LRA and Uganda would stop aiding the SPLA.

The LRA continued to kill, torture, maim, rape, and abduct large numbers of civilians, virtually enslaving numerous children. Although its levels of activity diminished somewhat compared with 1997, the area that the LRA targeted grew. Insurgent groups in Uganda, the largest of which -- the Lord's Resistance Army -- receives support from Sudan -- harass government forces and murder and kidnap civilians in the north and west. They do not, however, threaten the stability of the government. The LRA seeks to overthrow the Uganda Government and has inflicted brutal violence on the population in northern Uganda, including rape, kidnapping, torture, and murder. LRA forces also target local government officials and employees. The LRA also targets international humanitarian convoys and local nongovernmental organization workers. Due to Sudanese support of various guerrilla movements, Uganda severed diplomatic relations with Sudan on April 22, 1995, and contacts between the Government of Uganda and the National Islamic Front-dominated Government of Sudan remain limited.

The LRA has abducted large numbers of civilians for training as guerrillas; most victims were children and young adults. The LRA abducted young girls as sex and labor slaves. Other children, mainly girls, were reported to have been sold, traded, or given as gifts by the LRA to arms dealers in Sudan. While some later escaped or were rescued, the whereabouts of many children remain unknown.

In particular, the LRA abducted numerous children and, at clandestine bases, terrorized them into virtual slavery as guards, concubines, and soldiers. In addition to being beaten, raped, and forced to march until exhausted, abducted children were forced to participate in the killing of other children who had attempted to escape. Amnesty International reported that without child abductions, the LRA would have few combatants. More than 6,000 children were abducted during 1998, although many of those abducted later escaped or were released. Most human rights NGO‚s place the number of abducted children still held captive by the LRA at around 3,000, although estimates vary substantially.

Civil strife in the north has led to the violation of the rights of many members of the Acholi tribe, which is largely resident in the northern districts of Gulu and Kitgum. Both government forces and the LRA rebels--who themselves largely are Acholi--committed violations. LRA fighters in particular were implicated in the killing, maiming, and kidnaping of Alcholi tribe members, although the number and severity of their attacks decreased somewhat compared with 1997.

The LRA rebels say they are fighting for the establishment of a government based on the biblical Ten Commandments. They are notorious for kidnapping children and forcing them to become rebel fighters or concubines. More than one-half-million people in Uganda's Gulu and Kitgum districts have been displaced by the fighting and are living in temporary camps, protected by the army.

Forty-eight people were hacked to death near the town of Kitgum in the far north of Uganda on 25 July 2002. Local newspaper reports said elderly people were killed with machetes and spears, and babies were flung against trees. Ugandans were shocked by the brutality of the latest attack by the rebel Lord's Resistance Army.

The vicious rebel attack in northern Uganda raised questions about planned peace talks between the group, the Lord's Resistance Army, and Uganda's government. President Yoweri Museveni had recently agreed to peace talks brokered by Ugandan religious leaders. The Ugandan army has been trying to crush the LRA rebellion for 16 years without success. President Museveni gave his backing to peace talks to be brokered by religious leaders. But, Ugandan army spokesman Major Shaban Bantariza said he believes this is a waste of time because the rebel leader, Joseph Kony, does not have any real agenda to discuss.

In February 2003 Sudan agreed to let troops from neighboring Uganda enter its territory to attack the LRA rebels who had been trying for years to overthrow the Ugandan government. The Ugandan army called on the rebels, known as the Lord's Resistance Army, to surrender or be defeated. Ugandan officials said the agreement gives them what they have long been waiting for, the chance to eliminate the Lord's Resistance Army once and for all. The agreement sets the stage for a decisive blow against rebels.

By early 2003 optimism was growing that 16 years of fighting in northern Uganda may soon come to an end. Rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army declared a cease-fire and say they want to hold talks with the government of Yoweri Museveni. The pledge by the Lord's Resistance Army to cease all ambushes, abductions and attacks has been welcomed by the Uganda government. The Lord's Resistance Army was in a tight corner after its bases in southern Sudan, just over the border from northern Uganda, had been destroyed by Ugandan troops following an agreement with the Sudanese government. The rebels' main sources of food and military supplies are now back home in northern Uganda, making them much more vulnerable to attacks by government troops. But in June 2003 the leader of the LRA, Joseph Kony, told his fighters to destroy Catholic missions, kill priests and missionaries, and beat up nuns.

In January 2004 Ugandan Defense Minister Amama Mbabazi said that the government army had killed 928 Lord's Resistance Army (LRA) rebels between Jan. 1, 2003 and Jan. 16, 2004. Speaking at a monthly press briefing in Bombo, suburb of Kampala, Minister Mbabazi said 791 rebels were either captured by the army or surrendered during the same period in the "Operation Iron Fist" against the LRA rebels. He said the army rescued 7,299 people abducted by the rebels. He also said 88 army soldiers died in the combat, 141 others were injured and four went missing during the period.

In May 2004 a report by the aid organisation, Christian Aid, condemned what it described as a shirking of the government's responsibilities to protect the people of the north "borne out of a lack of will". It accused the government of herding civilians into camps ostensibly to protect them from the LRA without offering those living in camps the protection they needed. The Ugandan government rejected the report, saying the report was "completely unfair".

Rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army (LRA) attacked a camp for internally displaced persons (IDPs) in war-ravaged northern Uganda on 16 May 2004, killing scores of people and abducting others. A group of rebels attacked Pagak displaced people's camp in three prongs: one attacked the camp, a second one attacked the soldiers guarding it and the third one concentrated on the patrol units. The group that attacked the camp set ablaze dozens of grass-thatched huts to create confusion, then looted food and abducted people whom they forced to carry their loot for a distance before they killed them along with their babies.

lemontree
29 Oct 04,, 06:38
You know, you're an idiot....

Thanks for calling me an idiot. BTW how old are you?..:rolleyes:

Administerator/Moderator please note.

Confed999
31 Oct 04,, 01:07
You know, you're an idiot.
If you can't make your point without personal attacks, don't bother posting.