UK Devolution

[Ironduke]

Over the years, nationalist and unionist sentiments have shifted over time in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

Serious political crises have arisen as a result of increased nationalist sentiment, and in recent years, separate legislatures have been created in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland to cater to demands for increased autonomy.

Has devolution proven beneficial? Should England have its own legislature as well, despite there being little appetite for it? If each major region in the UK had its own legislature, what should be the role of Parliament?

Should the UK have more of a confederation-style of government, or should it be shifted back to having a more centralized model? Perhaps a bit extreme, but do you believe it would be favorable for each nation in the UK to "go its own way" and become fully independent within the UK?

Ultimately, do you believe there is a common ground that can be reached that would satisfy almost everybody?

This seems to be a quite divisive issue among Britons, and I would be interested in hearing your responses.

[Ray]

Am equally interested in knowing the responses.

[glyn]

Have a look at the Cornish Stannary thread in this section to see what the Cornish feel.

[PubFather]

Over the years, nationalist and unionist sentiments have shifted over time in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

Serious political crises have arisen as a result of increased nationalist sentiment, and in recent years, separate legislatures have been created in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland to cater to demands for increased autonomy.

NI had a devolved gvt fully supported by the Unionists in the '70s but was suspended during the troubles.
Isle of Mann has been self-governing for a very long time.

Has devolution proven beneficial? Should England have its own legislature as well, despite there being little appetite for it? If each major region in the UK had its own legislature, what should be the role of Parliament?

This is the crux of the question - regional assemblies are negatively viewed in England as simply another level of gvt.

Two possible solutions:
1) The UK parliament excludes Scottish members (and ultimately Welsh ones) for purely "English" votes.
2) More powers are devolved to county councils - perhaps not on the level that the Scottish parliament has, but the Welsh model might work.

Should the UK have more of a confederation-style of government,

Yep - but federal is a dirty word in the UK - because of European debates.

or should it be shifted back to having a more centralized model?

This would cause an immediate breakup of the UK

Perhaps a bit extreme, but do you believe it would be favorable for each nation in the UK to "go its own way" and become fully independent within the UK?

It may or may not happen. Scotland is most likely candidate but it remains to be seen. I hope not (my unborn child might need dual-nationality!!)...

Ultimately, do you believe there is a common ground that can be reached that would satisfy almost everybody?

This seems to be a quite divisive issue among Britons, and I would be interested in hearing your responses.

The English need to be brought on board, and not just the Londoners. Most people north of Watford dislike the London-centrism of the government, the media and the economy. The English are pretty sick of Scottish whining (rightly so) and many are inclined to send us off into the North Sea...

Another variable is the Labour party - they are dependant on Scottish votes and MPs. They can never argue for independence without sentencing themselves to virtual electoral oblivion in England. 2 of the top 4 jobs in cabinet are Scottish MPs after all..

[Ironduke]

Have a look at the Cornish Stannary thread in this section to see what the Cornish feel.

I hope this doesn't derail the thread...

I don't know if I've mentioned it elsewhere, but my patrilineal descent is Cornish. My first male ancestor sharing my last name left the city of Cornwall in 1832 for Newfoundland, he then left for the southeastern Ontario. His son then moved to southwestern Ontario, and his son then moved to southern Minnesota in the 1880's or 1890's.

My ancestors in Cornwall were masons and I've read you can find our last name engraved on the cornerstones of many of the buildings that still stand in the city. You probably would know of, at the very least, people sharing my last name in the area you live in.

When my grandpa saw your post in his introduction thread, he pulled out his map of the UK to show where Penzance and Cornwall were. :)

[sappersgt]

Cornish

I hope this doesn't derail the thread...

I don't know if I've mentioned it elsewhere, but my patrilineal descent is Cornish. My first male ancestor sharing my last name left the city of Cornwall in 1832 for Newfoundland, he then left for the southeastern Ontario. His son then moved to southwestern Ontario, and his son then moved to southern Minnesota in the 1880's or 1890's.

My ancestors in Cornwall were masons and I've read you can find our last name engraved on the cornerstones of many of the buildings that still stand in the city. You probably would know of, at the very least, people sharing my last name in the area you live in.

When my grandpa saw your post in his introduction thread, he pulled out his map of the UK to show where Penzance and Cornwall were. :)

My wife's ancestors hailed originally from Cornwall. All she retained was the surname Overby.

[ArmchairGeneral]

Another variable is the Labour party - they are dependant on Scottish votes and MPs. They can never argue for independence without sentencing themselves to virtual electoral oblivion in England. 2 of the top 4 jobs in cabinet are Scottish MPs after all..

That's fascinating. I kind of had a feeling Labour was stronger in Scotland, but not to that extent. I wonder why? How long has that been the situation?

[glyn]

I hope this doesn't derail the thread...

I don't know if I've mentioned it elsewhere, but my patrilineal descent is Cornish.

There you are! I knew I liked you for something other than that frightful beard

My ancestors in Cornwall were masons

Probably most were tin miners, further back in time. As the County is made out of granite they became skilled workers with stone.

When my grandpa saw your post in his introduction thread, he pulled out his map of the UK to show where Penzance and Cornwall were. :)

Well done Dick. Us oldies continue to educate the younger generations. If you come to visit the old country I can show you the sights (as long as you promise not to use those irritating words 'cool' and 'neat' unless the temperature and tidyness are being discussed).;)

[glyn]

My wife's ancestors hailed originally from Cornwall. All she retained was the surname Overby.

It has been claimed that there are more people of Cornish descent living in the US than in Cornwall. I remember being impressed when I first visited Tombstone Az at how many Cornish surnames were on the shop signs.

[Ironduke]

I think you find alot of that in the US. There are people of Irish, Scottish, and Scandinavian descent in the US than in any of those nations, even if you add up just the fractions.

I don't know what percentage Cornish I am, I am 7/16 British and 1/16 Norwegian on my dad's side. I generally say I am of half-British descent and it is 1/4 English, 1/8 Scottish, and 1/8 Welsh though none of these numbers are exact. I'm also 1/8 each Swedish, Russian, Italian, and Slovenian.

The British descent is a bit sketchy as British ancestors besides those from the paternal line have been in North America for some time, and even include Anglicized Swiss ancestors. My grandparents have detailed records of our genealogy with some lines going back to the 15th or 16th century (which includes just about everybody who was on the Mayflower, including the captain).

[ArmchairGeneral]

I think you find alot of that in the US. There are people of Irish, Scottish, and Scandinavian descent in the US than in any of those nations, even if you add up just the fractions.

I don't know what percentage Cornish I am, I am 7/16 British and 1/16 Norwegian on my dad's side. I generally say I am of half-British descent and it is 1/4 English, 1/8 Scottish, and 1/8 Welsh though none of these numbers are exact. I'm also 1/8 each Swedish, Russian, Italian, and Slovenian.

The British descent is a bit sketchy as British ancestors besides those from the paternal line have been in North America for some time, and even include Anglicized Swiss ancestors. My grandparents have detailed records of our genealogy with some lines going back to the 15th or 16th century (which includes just about everybody who was on the Mayflower, including the captain).

Wow. That's pretty detailed. I'm of English-Scottish-Scots Irish-Norwegian-West African-Mohawk descent myself.

I thought the captain of the Mayflower went back with his ship after dropping the Pilgrims off? Did he come back later? Or was there some funny business going on?

[PubFather]

That's fascinating. I kind of had a feeling Labour was stronger in Scotland, but not to that extent. I wonder why? How long has that been the situation?

The Tory decline in Scotland is longstanding (certainly since the early '70s and more marked during the Thatcher years).

The 2 main reasons are:
1) Greater socio-economic deprivation/greater distribution of working class in Scotland. Scotland (along with the North-East of England) was especially dependent on ship-building/steel manfacture, and therefore suffered proportionately worse than England.
2) The Labour party was created by a Scotsman - Kier Hardy - and has always had a strong Scottish element. The Conservatives, on the other hand, have always traditionally been seen as an "English" party, supporters of "tea, vicars and cricket". This alienated "natural" Tory supporters in Scotland, many of whom turned to the SNP (without realising/noticing/caring) that they were actually more socialist than Labour. Thatcher's (and Major's) rule was very unrepresentative for Scotland. The straw that destroyed the Tories north of the border was the decision to introduce the Poll Tax in Scotland first ( as an experiment). This was as unpopular as Genghis Khan and seen as virtual colonial rule, especially as Scottish outrage was ignored until the rest of the UK responded in the same way...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_tax#United_Kingdom

Thatcher was always irritated by Scotland's dislike for her and her party - she always considered "thrifty" Scots to be natural conservatives.

[Ironduke]

Wow. That's pretty detailed. I'm of English-Scottish-Scots Irish-Norwegian-West African-Mohawk descent myself.

I thought the captain of the Mayflower went back with his ship after dropping the Pilgrims off? Did he come back later? Or was there some funny business going on?

No, not the captain of the ship, Miles Standish. Nearly everybody in the Massachusetts area after a few generations had common descent from most Mayflower settlers who survived the first winter. It was a limited gene pool.

[brokensickle]

Why the sudden shift? The answer would be insructive.

Over the years, nationalist and unionist sentiments have shifted over time in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

Serious political crises have arisen as a result of increased nationalist sentiment, and in recent years, separate legislatures have been created in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland to cater to demands for increased autonomy.

Has devolution proven beneficial? Should England have its own legislature as well, despite there being little appetite for it? If each major region in the UK had its own legislature, what should be the role of Parliament?

Should the UK have more of a confederation-style of government, or should it be shifted back to having a more centralized model? Perhaps a bit extreme, but do you believe it would be favorable for each nation in the UK to "go its own way" and become fully independent within the UK?

Ultimately, do you believe there is a common ground that can be reached that would satisfy almost everybody?

This seems to be a quite divisive issue among Britons, and I would be interested in hearing your responses.

It's not time to separate. It seems time to pull together historical bonds of tradition. Some recent outside forces that have no inkling of the traditional form of government in the UK seem to be the cause of its dividing and have not the slightest bit of interest in a cohesive UK. Don't ask me who just figure it out.


Ivan

[Elbmek]

Has devolution proven beneficial? Should England have its own legislature as well, despite there being little appetite for it? If each major region in the UK had its own legislature, what should be the role of Parliament?

Devolution is a one way road to idiocy in my opinion.

We have the Scots making their own laws from Edinburgh - Welsh making their own laws from Cardiff and Ulster making their own laws from Stormont.

But here in England, we have English laws being made at Westminster but English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish Members of Parliament!! how stupid can it be?

Age old prejudices could be now surfacing and people passing laws with an unjust bias against us, the English.

Of course, the entire blame lies at the feet of Mr B Liar and his socialist government. He is to blame for all this, yet, without the mass of Scottish & Welsh MP's sitting in London, he could make no laws because I feel he would not even be there.