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BruteGorilla
29 Aug 03,, 08:47
The J-10 programme can trace its origins back to the cancelled J-9, a Mach 2.5 canard-delta fighter, which is a blend mixture of MiG-23 and Saab JA-37 Viggen.

J-10 is supposed to be a single-seat single-engine multirole fighter aircraft with general performance matching aircraft such as France Mirage 2000 or U.S. F-16C/D. Even after fifteen years of development since 1988 its not ready for actual deployment. This speaks volumes how much Chinese have expertse in building even a mid tech fighter.

Work on the J-10 began in the 1980s as a counter to the Soviet fourth-generation fighters the MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-27 Flanker. That mkes it even older than LCA project The original mission was air superiority, but now its supposed to be multirole fighter to replace the crappy Shenyang J-6, Chengdu J-7, and Nanchan Q-5, which dominate the air fleets of the PLAAF.

The original design of the J-10 was based on the cancelled Israel Aviation Industry (IAI) Lavi lightweight fighter. China and Israel started collaboration in the early 1980's and full-scale co-operation was underway by 1984. After the 1987 cancellation of the Lavi programme, its design was taken over by the CAC, and the IAI carried on with the development of avionic equipment. So the plane is mostly Israeli and not Chinese. Since Israelis have stopped support the Chinese are not able to finish the project. However, the Lavi project had included many elements that Israel could not develop by itself, and China cannot obtain these key technologies from the United States, which has consequently substantially increased the technical difficulties of the F10. In addition, there are certain difference between the Israeli and Chinese requirements for the aircraft. Since Israel already already had fighters such as the F-15, its primary requirement for the Lavi was short-range air support and interdiction, with a secondary mission of air superiority. In contrast, the Chinese Air Force is interested in replacing its large fleet of outmoded J-6 and J-7 fighters, for which air superiority capabilities remain a top priority while the air-to-ground attack capability is of secondary importance. China nor Israel is capable of developing the propulsion system required by the J-10,


As i already indicated J-10's development has Fly-By-Wire (FBW) and engine problems, which resulted in the loss of the No.2 prototype aircraft and its test pilot in 1997. So Russia gave them Russians also agreed to offer its Lyulka Saturn AL-31F turbofan engines. FBW is tested in another failed project called J-8 (i will post real face of J-8 later) so the FBW is not reliable.

China tried to make it more complicated by trying to integrate F-16 A/B features and technologies which Pakistan has illegaly given to them.

Some 30 aircraft were suoopsed to be built by 2005. Till now the testing is not over

The acquisition of Su-27, after China had attempted for years to develop the J-10 aircraft with equivalent technology to perform similar functions, demonstrates a lack of confidence in domestic industrial capabilities. China’s record on reverse engineering aircraft has not been impressive, and it remains in doubt whether the J-10 will ever join China’s interceptor inventory.

It is unclear what specific technologies and systems J-10 has.

Its very clear that J-10 will meet the same fate as J-8,FBC-1 (Flying Leopard) etc.

Some prototypes of J-10 has been delivered to the PLAAF Flight Test & Training Center for evaluation in February 2002 . But they were not happy with it and thats why J-10 is still under development and testing.

I think J-10 will go the j-8 way and PLAAF will be forced to accept J-10 as they did with J-8

troung
30 Aug 03,, 05:08
Not this poorly made cut and paste you are posting around the internet........


"Some 30 aircraft were suoopsed to be built by 2005"

Is it 2005?

"The original mission was air superiority, but now its supposed to be multirole fighter to replace the crappy Shenyang J-6, Chengdu J-7, and Nanchan Q-5, which dominate the air fleets of the PLAAF."

Uhh the Su-27SK is for air superiority while of course the J-10 is planned to be mutli role.

Nice thinly vieled shot at the J-7, its funny that the InAF back bone is the MiG-21 and will be so for quite some time.

"China’s record on reverse engineering aircraft has not been impressive, and it remains in doubt whether the J-10 will ever join China’s interceptor inventory."

Uhh the J-7 worked, the H-6 worked, the J-6 worked.

"Since Israelis have stopped support the Chinese are not able to finish the project."

So the ones that were handed over tot he PLAAF?

"Its very clear that J-10 will meet the same fate as J-8,FBC-1 (Flying Leopard) etc."

The J-10 is not in doubt but the LCA could veyr well be.

And the LCA will meet the same fate as the Marut a plane no one hears of and they will buy a better plane to do its role while putting some in to make jobs.

"That mkes it even older than LCA project"

By how much excalty and which one is farther ahead?


Dumbass.

UnitedDiversity
09 Sep 03,, 03:35
To: [BruteGorilla]

Hey Brute, listen, there are almost 30 J-10s flying for the PLAAF right now in the NangJing Flight Testing center.

And China's reverse engineering? OK!!! projects that worked.

J-5
J-6
J-7
H-5
H-6
Y-5
Y-6
Y-7
Remeo Class SSK
T-59MBT
T-63 APC
BMP-1 IFV
Z-9
WZ-9
Huangfeng Class Missile Attack Boat
S-300PMU LRSAM
T-59 Assault Rifle
WZ-5 UAV
PL-8 SRAAM
PL-4 MRAAM
Type 730 CIWs
SU-27SK will almost count as well if the Chinese isn't following the contracts so nicely.

and the list goes on and on...

Visigoth
14 Nov 04,, 22:51
Dont you Americans feel betrayed,you paid for the development of the Lavi,then when Congress saw it would compete for foreign sales with the F-16,meaning loss of work in Fort Worth Texas, they terminated funding.Israel then unable to afford to do anything withought your generous financial assistance turns around and sells the design to your next enemy.You may find yourself fighting the very design you bled your own tax payers for.How about a new thread dealing with sophisticated technology sales to china.Any of you heard of "enhanced promis software" its outright theft and its use against your own countries greatest secrets.

Franco Lolan
15 Nov 04,, 01:56
what is "enhanced promis software"?

ajaybhutani
15 Nov 04,, 10:31
brute can u please paste the link of ur post .

-{SpoonmaN}-
16 Nov 04,, 01:27
I could swear I've read that article before. Anyway as far as I know the LCA is pretty far ahead, and it seems to be a fairly capable aircraft (Although I'm not aware of any particular technical difficulties.)
If, as you say, the J-10 is plagued with problems then it might be a good idea for China to start throwing it's increasing financial resources into developing Russian fighters like the PAK-FA to fullfill their need for a high-tech multi-role fighter, and use the Flanker series for strike and interception duties. Another thing they need to do is work out a deal to start buying and building themselves a new version of the Tu-26 Backfire, as they really need to replace thier existing bombers.
In fact, the PLA really needs to think hard about how it's going to replace all their crappy old weapons like the Luda destroyers, the J-7 and the Type 59 MBTs that form the backbone of their forces, while at the same time going ahead with the development of their cruise missile project, building new SSBNs and building a carrier. It's gonna be tough.

dabrownguy
16 Nov 04,, 05:16
I don't want to be a biatch or nothin but I'd have to say that the LCA is superior in terms of electronics and EW system because unlike China India doesn;t have sanctions slaped on it. Although the weapons load of the j-10 seems larger i'm I think that its probabiliy less manuavrable than the F-16s

ajaybhutani
16 Nov 04,, 07:33
If they can manage to put TVC into J10 then i guess there wont be competition for agility with F15/F16.
BTW can anyone tell me if its design(airframe) is statically stable /unstable??

lulldapull
17 Nov 04,, 16:57
Not this poorly made cut and paste you are posting around the internet........


"Some 30 aircraft were suoopsed to be built by 2005"

Is it 2005?

"The original mission was air superiority, but now its supposed to be multirole fighter to replace the crappy Shenyang J-6, Chengdu J-7, and Nanchan Q-5, which dominate the air fleets of the PLAAF."

Uhh the Su-27SK is for air superiority while of course the J-10 is planned to be mutli role.

Nice thinly vieled shot at the J-7, its funny that the InAF back bone is the MiG-21 and will be so for quite some time.

"China’s record on reverse engineering aircraft has not been impressive, and it remains in doubt whether the J-10 will ever join China’s interceptor inventory."

Uhh the J-7 worked, the H-6 worked, the J-6 worked.

"Since Israelis have stopped support the Chinese are not able to finish the project."

So the ones that were handed over tot he PLAAF?

"Its very clear that J-10 will meet the same fate as J-8,FBC-1 (Flying Leopard) etc."

The J-10 is not in doubt but the LCA could veyr well be.

And the LCA will meet the same fate as the Marut a plane no one hears of and they will buy a better plane to do its role while putting some in to make jobs.

"That mkes it even older than LCA project"

By how much excalty and which one is farther ahead?


Dumbass.



AaaaaaaaaaaHAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Troung man take it easy on him! he's just a casual reader of aircraft news and developments :biggrin: :biggrin:

Brute goreelay! The J-10 wil come into being, and it will be a successful type! Might not be upto the level of capability of the Su-30MKK, but it will do a hell of a lot better job than the J-7/ J-8 currently in service! :)

lulldapull
17 Nov 04,, 17:00
If they can manage to put TVC into J10 then i guess there wont be competition for agility with F15/F16.
BTW can anyone tell me if its design(airframe) is statically stable /unstable??


It is unstable, unlike the Flanker! Hey new news guys, the J-10B is supposedly being developed as a twin seat conversion trainer as well as a dedicated strike aircraft with some stealth charachteristics.

and here's about the best info on it as far as the net goes:

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10.asp

There used to be a very nice article on the J-10 on Veniks site, but that site has mysteriously turned Russian! :biggrin: i don't understand anything on it anymore!

Asim Aquil
17 Nov 04,, 19:57
If J-10 was going to be scrapped, the Chinese government would'nt have just recently made the J-10 project public (they always denied its existence before).... Plus! they've also started airing its test flight videos.

I doubt J-10 would beat Indian Sukhois, maybe over time, but lets not go ahead of ourselves and start saying LCA will do magic, when its not even certain yet. All recent Indian anouncements are constantly projecting disappointments and goofups. India should focus on getting tech to build the Su-30's at home.

ajaybhutani
17 Nov 04,, 20:48
If J-10 was going to be scrapped, the Chinese government would'nt have just recently made the J-10 project public (they always denied its existence before).... Plus! they've also started airing its test flight videos.

I doubt J-10 would beat Indian Sukhois, maybe over time, but lets not go ahead of ourselves and start saying LCA will do magic, when its not even certain yet. All recent Indian anouncements are constantly projecting disappointments and goofups. India should focus on getting tech to build the Su-30's at home.

About comparison of J10's with LCA's i would say in case the Mirage deal comes thru then it would be like ( till say 2010)
Indian MKI & Mig29 vs Chinese MKK
Indian M2K-5 (the new ones inducted ) vs Chineese J10
Indian LCA vs Chineese FC-1

I guess indians would be quite safe :D.. and by 2010-12 PAK-FA should be inducted in service.

About the indian SU30 tech transfer Teh ToT is in progress and production is on target. The first two indian made MKi's would be delivered by the end of this year followed by some 14 every year.Another imp point to note is that the MKI program is supposed to be more of a dedvelopment/improvement cycle. So every new batch will have newer and better features i.e. the last batch will be quite different from the ones built this year. theres a lot of scope for improvement like AESA radar,full 3-D TVC, composite wings and obviously loads of avionics whose better versions will be available with time. The components from MKI development have been used in upgrades of Mig21 Jaguars & Mig29 too.

dabrownguy
19 Nov 04,, 01:33
About comparison of J10's with LCA's i would say in case the Mirage deal comes thru then it would be like ( till say 2010)
Indian MKI & Mig29 vs Chinese MKK
Indian M2K-5 (the new ones inducted ) vs Chineese J10
Indian LCA vs Chineese FC-1

I guess indians would be quite safe :D.. and by 2010-12 PAK-FA should be inducted in service.

About the indian SU30 tech transfer Teh ToT is in progress and production is on target. The first two indian made MKi's would be delivered by the end of this year followed by some 14 every year.Another imp point to note is that the MKI program is supposed to be more of a dedvelopment/improvement cycle. So every new batch will have newer and better features i.e. the last batch will be quite different from the ones built this year. theres a lot of scope for improvement like AESA radar,full 3-D TVC, composite wings and obviously loads of avionics whose better versions will be available with time. The components from MKI development have been used in upgrades of Mig21 Jaguars & Mig29 too.
What kind of idoitic approach is that?
If there would be a war the only jets PLAAF can get inside Indian boarders will be the Flankers as the have range and altitude as well as the endurance. Once inside the Flankers are screwed. They'll have to pull some magic from the old soviet avonics. They'll be up against our airdefence system and our interceptors such as the Bision and Teja.

ajaybhutani
19 Nov 04,, 06:29
indian SAM air defence is **** .if compared to chineese defences.
Chineese wont be using AF flankers to take out crucial targets but instead their missiles thus making . In case chineese use AF in some missions then they wont just use SU30s but anythin they have and in a matter of 5-6 years they will have J10s and FC-1 in service which will also be used if not for attack then for defending against IAF attacks on Chineese territory. BTW bison isnt really good nough to post a threat to SU30 and tejas wont be inucted till 2010 and even when inducted i doubt that it can be considered comparable.

My post just analyzes the numerical strength comparison in the future . What did u find idiotic about it.???