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  • Pakistan's undeclared war...who is gettting killed?

    Pakistan's undeclared war

    By Zaffar Abbas
    BBC correspondent in Islamabad


    For Pakistan's powerful military and the rugged Pashtun tribesmen, the South Waziristan region, near the border with Afghanistan, is a virtual war zone.

    The vast mountainous region remains out of bound for non-locals. Journalists have been barred from the area, and the main town of Wana looks like a military garrison.



    Local residents are getting caught in the crossfire
    A tribal resident shows remains of artillery which damaged his home in Wana, Pakistan, August 2004


    Almost daily skirmishes, landmine explosions, and use of heavy artillery and occasional aerial bombing, makes it a deadly conflict zone.

    The latest military offensive in which air force bombers and gunship helicopters pounded an alleged training camp of suspected al-Qaeda militants, has resulted in heavy casualties. And it has taken the conflict to an area that until now had remained relatively peaceful.

    This was the third time in recent weeks that the military bombed suspected militant hideouts. It has given a new and a more serious dimension to the security operation within the country.

    Until now, aerial bombing has never been used to crush an armed insurgency in the country.

    No end in sight
    The military may not have suffered any serious casualties in the latest offensive, largely because it used air power and long-range rockets. But since the present conflict began in March, scores of soldiers have been killed, including officers.

    Dozens of foreign and local militants have also been killed. But it is becoming increasingly clear that the victims of this undeclared war are the local tribesmen and their families, who have been caught in the crossfire.

    In some ways it suggests that the military's assessments about the fighting strength of the militants, and the risk to civilians, were wrong.

    So what will be the outcome of this bloody conflict, which does not seem to have an immediate end? No-one seems to have an answer.

    The military offensive had been part of the overall war against al-Qaeda.

    The US-led forces have largely been operating across the border in Afghanistan, and Islamabad admits, have also been assisting the Pakistani troops in surveillance and communication.

    The co-ordinated effort is largely aimed at capturing top al-Qaeda leaders Osama Bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahri. The men, and many of their close associates, are widely believed to be hiding in and perhaps operating out of the area.

    Tribal groups angry
    Since the start of operation, the military authorities have firmly established that a large number of Uzbek, Chechen and Arab militants were in the area.

    Battle-hardened tribesmen have taken the military action as an attack on their sovereignty, and have been putting up stiff resistance.

    Most parts of the semi-autonomous tribal region have traditionally resisted the presence of foreign forces, including Pakistani troops.

    It was in July 2002 that Pakistani troops, for the first time in 55 years, entered the Tirah Valley in Khyber tribal agency. Soon they were in Shawal valley of North Waziristan, and later in South Waziristan.

    This was made possible after long negotiations with various tribes, who reluctantly agreed to allow the military's presence on the assurance that it would bring in funds and development work.

    But once the military action started in South Waziristan a number of Waziri sub-tribes took it as an attempt to subjugate them.

    Attempts to persuade them into handing over the foreign militants failed, and with an apparently mishandling by the authorities, the security campaign against suspected al-Qaeda militants turned into an undeclared war between the Pakistani military and the rebel tribesmen.

    Some analysts say it is a no-win situation for the Pakistani troops. They cannot abandon the operation half-way, but are now having to use bombers and gunship helicopters against what was earlier described as a "handful of foreign militants and some local miscreants".

    Relations between the authorities and local tribesmen have deteriorated to such an extent that the troops may remain bogged down long after all the foreign militants have been eliminated or flushed out of the region.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3645114.stm



    >>So Vision, Isnt this not a human rights violation?? Bombing your own people ??
    Last edited by Jay; 10 Sep 04,, 22:20.
    A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

  • #2
    One expects better writing - Mr Abbas illuminates: " it is becoming increasingly clear that the victims of this undeclared war are the local tribesmen and their families, who have been caught in the crossfire." Duh! We are now to believe that the tribesmen are victims and not faclitators of the terrorists? not hosts of the terrorists?? look at how Mr. Abbas describes these "victims" : "Battle-hardened tribesmen have taken the military action as an attack on their sovereignty, and have been putting up stiff resistance" - Victims, right??? No, honestly, are these "victims" or what??

    And there is this gem:
    "The military may not have suffered any serious casualties in the latest offensive, largely because it used air power and long-range rockets. But since the present conflict began in March, scores of soldiers have been killed, including officers"

    Apparently scores of dead soldiers, including oficers are not serious casualties, among Pakistani intellectuals such as mr. Abbas, those who serve and sacrifice in the patriotic armed forces are barely human, it is the tribesmen who aid and abet the terrorists who are the real victims, not soldiers and offcers who have been deprived of the life and limb - live and learn

    And ofcourse, once again ,Pakistani state official version is caught with their pants down: :Some analysts say it is a no-win situation for the Pakistani troops. They cannot abandon the operation half-way, but are now having to use bombers and gunship helicopters against what was earlier described as a "handful of foreign militants and some local miscreants"."

    Exactly as you have been told before, it's a minority, a handful of miscreants, we'l spank then and they will be ok, it's no big problem, problem, what problem, it's islamic brother against islamic brother turned agent of yazeed? hainji??? tell more lies, built a whole eddice of lies and when it comes crashing down, like it has to, well.. you can always blame the US, the Crusader, the scheming jew, the cunning Hindu
    _____________________

    Comment


    • #3
      Yep, he's a factual journalist, from Pakistan! I cant say much!
      A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

      Comment


      • #4
        Pakistani Armed forces and the Pakistani state can take lessons from the political will demonstrated by Yemen



        Yemeni army kills rebel Muslim cleric Huthi

        SANAA: Yemen’s army on Friday killed an anti-US Muslim preacher who styled himself as a "Prince of Believers" and led a near three-month bloody rebellion against the authorities from the mountainous north of the country. The defence and interior ministries said in a joint statement that the death of Sheikh Hussein Badr Eddin al-Huthi had brought the deadly rebellion to an end and that all military operations in the vast Saada province near the border with Saudi Arabia had now ceased.

        Some of the rebel preacher’s supporters were also killed while others surrendered, the statement said. A defence ministry source told AFP that Huthi had been hiding out with supporters in a cave in Jarf Salman, a village in the rugged mountains of Maran, which lies in Saada, and was killed during the culmination of three days of intense fighting. Jarf Salman had been under siege since late August as the army closed in on Huthi, a cleric from the Zaidi Muslim sect, and his armed supporters.

        The source said Huthi’s top aide Abdullah Ayedh al-Razami and his supporters were still being pursued in the towns of Nashoor and Al-Shafiya, both right on the border with Saudi Arabia. Witnesses in the area told AFP that clashes continued until late Thursday between those holed out with Razami and the army. Military sources said they expect Razami to be arrested within days.

        Yemen had been battling the cleric and his supporters since June 18 when the rebellion erupted, since leaving more than 400 people dead on both sides. Hundreds of Huthi’s estimated 3,000 supporters have also been rounded up.the official statement said a ministerial committee is to be formed at the behest of President Ali Abdullah Saleh to assess the damage to the region after months of deadly clashes, and to rebuild those areas destroyed. The scores of people that fled their homes during the unrest have also been urged to return and resume life as normal. The authorities had offered a 55,000-dollar reward for information leading to the capture of Huthi, whom they had accused of seeking to foment sectarian strife.

        Huthi told AFP in July that the conflict was a result of his anti-US stand and accused Saleh of seeking "to please the United States at the expense of his own people." "I am working for the propagation of the Quran and the fight against the United States and Israel," Huthi had said, rejecting government claims he was linked to foreign forces. Huthi, a self-styled "Emir al-Mumineen," or Prince of Believers, headed the Faithful Youth organisation, an off-shoot of the Islamist opposition movement Al-Haq formed in 1992.

        Born in 1956 in Saada province and the son of one of the most influential Zaidi religious officials in Yemen, Huthi served as an MP in Yemen’s parliament from 1993 to 1997.

        The Zaidis are a moderate Shiite Muslim sect dominates in northwest Yemen but in the minority in the mainly Sunni country. Since the September 11, 2001 attacks in the United States, Yemen has launched a crackdown against al-Qaeda sympathisers among the country’s Sunni Muslim majority, but the Zaidi minority has been relatively calm. Yemen is the ancestral home of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and has seen a series of major attacks claimed by the militant network, including the 2002 bombing of the USS Cole off the southern port of Aden.

        One of Huthi’s brothers, Abdel Malek, was killed by the army during fierce clashes last month while another, Abdel Karim, was arrested. A third brother, Yahya, a member of parliament, was involved in an early attempt to broker the preacher’s surrender but that and subsequent mediation efforts failed to bring a peaceful end to the crisis. Religious scholars in Saada have meanwhile been urged to "guide citizens to the correct Islamic values," according to the official statement, which called on the young to avoid extremism and "contribute positively to building the country".
        Last edited by tarek; 11 Sep 04,, 00:03.
        _____________________

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        • #5
          Interesting how its the Indian who talks about the human rights of terrorists, you've forgotten the human rights violations of the Kashmiris by Indians already?

          Comment


          • #6
            Pleez - not a another indo-pak pissing contest - entirely unconstructive.
            _____________________

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Aryan
              Interesting how its the Indian who talks about the human rights of terrorists, you've forgotten the human rights violations of the Kashmiris by Indians already?
              Actually do you still have the nerve to accuse Indians when you killed your people using fighter planes?? thats some nerve you got there!

              Not to mention that there already is a whining thread, so post your whines there! This is about Pakistan and the killings in Wana!
              Last edited by Jay; 11 Sep 04,, 12:52.
              A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

              Comment


              • #8
                Some are more equal than others. Old Commie saying.


                "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                HAKUNA MATATA

                Comment


                • #9
                  The operation at Wana is an absolute must. Before you start crying foul, remember the great results that the effort in Pakistan has achieved. Remember what these bastards did in Karachi, just as recent as May. Bloody May as they call it... Bombed school, bombed bowling alleys...

                  Collateral is unfortunate, but the forces fighting against terrorism didn't draw first blood. The blood of the civillian lives lost in the effort is on them. South Waziristan has a lot of people harbouring these terrorists. It's a war zone out there. You want to survive you have to become active and get your case known. Go to the army, pledge your support. Normalcy does not apply on the battlefield.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Asim,
                    Thanks, I'll remember and say this the next time when a Pakistani cries foul for a Kashmiri civilian who got shot accidentally.

                    Thanks again!

                    p.s : I got this serious urge to post your response in the Kashmir human rights thread!

                    And btw Kashmir's been bloody for years (for us), our people getting killed every day, so dont you think we have the same right to eliminate the terrorist vermin like you do??
                    Last edited by Jay; 11 Sep 04,, 21:06.
                    A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jay
                      Actually do you still have the nerve to accuse Indians when you killed your people using fighter planes?? thats some nerve you got there!

                      Not to mention that there already is a whining thread, so post your whines there! This is about Pakistan and the killings in Wana!
                      The reason I am whining is because you seem to be suggesting these people are "our own people". They are not, the article clearly indicates the the people killed were foreign Arab or Uzbek/Chechen.

                      Don't compare this to Kashmir, where India has killing or raping Kashmiris to try to make Kashmir Indian, something that will never be accomplished.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        As I said you still got some nerve to reply here. If you cant freakin read the article I posted, please let me know, I'll record it (may be in Urdu) and will post it as an attachment. Now which part of the article cudnt you understand??

                        This??
                        . But it is becoming increasingly clear that the victims of this undeclared war are the local tribesmen and their families, who have been caught in the crossfire.
                        This??
                        Attempts to persuade them into handing over the foreign militants failed, and with an apparently mishandling by the authorities, the security campaign against suspected al-Qaeda militants turned into an undeclared war between the Pakistani military and the rebel tribesmen.
                        This??

                        Relations between the authorities and local tribesmen have deteriorated to such an extent that the troops may remain bogged down long after all the foreign militants have been eliminated or flushed out of the region.
                        Its rather sad, nah pathetic to disown and dismiss these Pakistani tribesmen as Uzbeks/Arabs/Chechens.

                        How much ever you "whine" Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India. Its the mujacraps who kill/rape and maime the innocent Kashmiris who arent conforming to their jehadi views. We will thwart every one of your attempt to get Kashmir by force;send in millions of mujacrap to Kashmir, we will dispatch them to oh, the sacred place!
                        A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          As I said you still got some nerve to reply here. If you cant freakin read the article I posted, please let me know, I'll record it (may be in Urdu) and will post it as an attachment. Now which part of the article cudnt you understand??
                          I have read the freakin article and I don't think its worth the paper it was printed on. Pakistani tribesmen have assisted the army in expelling the foreign elements, the article seems to conviently forget that. The very fact you wanted to post the article is enough evidence for me not to take it seriously.

                          How much ever you "whine" Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India. Its the mujacraps who kill/rape and maime the innocent Kashmiris who arent conforming to their jehadi views. We will thwart every one of your attempt to get Kashmir by force;send in millions of mujacrap to Kashmir, we will dispatch them to oh, the sacred place!
                          See? Kashmir is not about Jihadis, its about an identity, distinct from mainstream India. Kashmiris don't see themselves as Indian, never have done and never will do. Blame it on Jihadis, blame it on Pakistan, but you won't convince anyone outside India.

                          I didn't use to understand why Indians care so much about keeping hold of a nation not ethnically or racially the same as them, but now I do. India survives on keeping together its different people using deceit and propaganda, much like Yugoslavia. Indians feel if Kashmir is freed, then the succession movement will spread to other areas, like a bush fire spreading. First Kashmir, then Nagaland, Assam, Khalistan and the rest. Its true and I think Indians should embrace their fate. Afterall look at the consequences of Yugoslavia holding on to their artificial identity, is that in the interests of Indian citizens? Follow the path of Czechoslovakia, not Yugoslavia.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Aryan, if that is so, then the same applies to Pakistan. Both India and Pakistan have various ethno-linguistic groups under one flag. Also, your advice of "be like Czechoslovakia, not Yugoslavia" is unapplicable as the Czechs and Slovaks were two peoples, not 4 or 5 and did not intermingle with each other all that much. In Bosnia for example, there were Bosnians and Serbs. The Croats and the Serbs are the same ethnically and linguistically but separate religiously (catholic and orthodox respectively). Then, there are the Albanians in Kosovo, the Macedonians, the Montenegrans (sp?), and Slovenians. So, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia are incomparable IMO.

                            Now, regarding India. First off, unlike in Yugoslavia and Pakistan (at present), people in India can vote and have their vote count. Secondly, there is a common culture throughout India that is one of those intangible things that exists and is defined only fleetingly, via movies, music, dance, religion, food, etc. Lastly, if India should split with its Telegus, Kannadas, Malayalis, Bengalis, Biharis, Punjabis, Gujuratis, Tamils, Kashmiris, Assamese, etc., then surely Pakistan with its Punjabis, Pashtus, Kashmiris, Baluchis, Sindhis, etc. should also split into its component parts. And of course, Afghanistan should too. I am of the opinion that if a case can be made to separate India into various nations then so a case can be made for Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, France, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, the United States, Canada, PR China, Russia, and many other nations of the world to split up.

                            You mention a sentiment amongst Kashmiris distinct from that of being a part of India:
                            See? Kashmir is not about Jihadis, its about an identity, distinct from mainstream India. Kashmiris don't see themselves as Indian, never have done and never will do. Blame it on Jihadis, blame it on Pakistan, but you won't convince anyone outside India.
                            BS I say as I know a Kashmiri pandit family and they regard themselves as Indian. I don't know about Kashmiri muslims but some I've met in Hyderabad have said the best thing would be an independent Kashmir, from BOTH India and Pakistan. On the issue of Khalistan, that is no longer true. They have a Sikh as PM for goodness sake! In Nagaland and Manipur, the violence IMO is being caused by idiotic Assam Rifles soldiers. In Kashmir, it is rather obvious who the jihadis are.

                            Besides the northeast and Kashmir Aryan, I would say there is little or no separatist sentiment. The worst sentiment I can think of is the Tamils hate speaking Hindi. I've been to Delhi, I've been to parts of Rajasthan, I've been throughout Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka, and in none of these places have I seen a serious sentiment of "let's have our own nation". Frankly, I don';t think the breakup of either India or Pakistan would benefit either nations' peoples as it would only lead to more war with tiny states fighting amongst each other, as they have done for most of India's history? India may not be perfect but it;s a hell of a lot better than a ton of tiny, small states fighting amongst each other, ripe for conquer by a foreign power (and in this case, I'm guessing you'd just love that to be a unified Pakistan ;) ).

                            Lastly, I recall that a million people (not Hindus or Muslims, people, human beings my friend) died during Partition and I've heard bad stories from people who hail from both sides of the border. Do you really want to see that fate visited on an even more densly populated subcontinent?
                            Am out of town for a while and then have tons of work coming up at school. Will be back once that's all done.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Aryan
                              I have read the freakin article and I don't think its worth the paper it was printed on. Pakistani tribesmen have assisted the army in expelling the foreign elements, the article seems to conviently forget that. The very fact you wanted to post the article is enough evidence for me not to take it seriously.
                              And why is that? coz it doesnt conform to your view on Pakistan army?? didnt you guys gloat on an anti-India article from BBC? How come its not so surreal source now? eh?

                              See? Kashmir is not about Jihadis, its about an identity, distinct from mainstream India. Kashmiris don't see themselves as Indian, never have done and never will do. Blame it on Jihadis, blame it on Pakistan, but you won't convince anyone outside India.
                              Kashmir is about jihadis, particularly from Pakistan. Kashmiris see themselves Indians, From sheikh Abdulla to Mufti Mohd Sayeed. Sheikh Abdulla was one hell of a Kashmiri activist and he gave a black eye to Jinnah. We did hope that Pakistan would learn its lesson then and there, but you didnt.

                              Still Kashmiris do see themselves as Indians, atleast 42% of them voted in last elections, some of them were scared of the muslim terrorists from Pakistan disrupting the elections. Disruption, they did killed some politicians.

                              I didn't use to understand why Indians care so much about keeping hold of a nation not ethnically or racially the same as them, but now I do. India survives on keeping together its different people using deceit and propaganda, much like Yugoslavia. Indians feel if Kashmir is freed, then the succession movement will spread to other areas, like a bush fire spreading. First Kashmir, then Nagaland, Assam, Khalistan and the rest. Its true and I think Indians should embrace their fate. Afterall look at the consequences of Yugoslavia holding on to their artificial identity, is that in the interests of Indian citizens? Follow the path of Czechoslovakia, not Yugoslavia.
                              Heh, look who's talking, you dont even have control over the whole Waziristan, an area under the sovreign state of Pakistan, where they need to get the approval of some tribes men to get rid of so called terrorists.
                              Still the Balochis are giving you a bloody nose everytime you try to rob their natural resources.At one point of time Pakistan had around 50,000 soldiers killing Balochi's resistance movement. Its so covinient to forget it. eh? Same with Sind, they dont even consider them as a common entity wrt Punjabis.

                              Out of 5 provinces, 4 are rebelling against a common state, Pakistan. So its imperative that Pakistan should be divided first.Actually dividing Pakistan is easy given the fact that it so small compared to India.

                              Now who's creating an artificial identity?

                              Nagaland is already under truce, the central govt is holding talks and they laid down their arms. In Assam, the only group creating trouble is ULFA, last 2 years were pretty successful and hopefully it'll be quelled before you can enter Waziristan freely. Khalistan?? heh, its a dead cow, unless you are god, it cannot be awaken
                              A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

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