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roshan
15 Aug 04,, 12:53
Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini (1900-1989) born on May 17, Iranian religious leader. He was the Supreme Leader of Iran, 1979-89 and leader of Shiite Moslems in Iran.

Now, for his great words of wisdom:

"If a fly gets into the throat of one who is fasting, it is not necessary to pull it out."

"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he
should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and
damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her
life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives.
The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister."

"A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on.
However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not
sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to
the next door village should be fine."

"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrement become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed and as quickly as possible and burned."

************************************************** **************

What amazing wisdom! It is simply divine. Ayatollahs, sign me up!!!

Confed999
15 Aug 04,, 16:20
Yikes! What a loon! :eek:

visioninthedark
15 Aug 04,, 17:29
this is a pack of lies .....

I am a shia muslim and this is just a bunch of lies ...


if this is an attempt at humour .... it is the lowest, cheapest kind of humour ...


it shows the mental bankruptcy of the poster ...


you think by posting lies you sound funny .... no .... you sound sick ...


mods ... please deal with this joker ....


not that i support a mullah ..... but this is an insult of a whole religion ....

Praxus
15 Aug 04,, 17:31
All religions are irrational. I don't know how anyone can blindly believe in an invisible being that all we know about him is that he "is to complex for us to comprehend".

Confed999
15 Aug 04,, 17:42
this is a pack of lies
Actually, from what I can tell they are from Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990.

Confed999
15 Aug 04,, 17:44
All religions are irrational. I don't know how anyone can blindly believe in an invisible being that all we know about him is that he "is to complex for us to comprehend".
This guy wasn't invisible, and I bet he was far more insane than religious.

visioninthedark
15 Aug 04,, 17:48
Actually, from what I can tell they are from Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990.

don't believe everything you read on the net ....

how can you be so gullible ...


anyone could write that and claim it was from his book ...


whatever is quoted here goes against the fundamental commandments of Shia Islam ...


how could a priest ask people to disobey his own religion ... ???


could the pope say homosexual sex was a fundamental necessity of catholocism???


nooo ....


same here ....


hope you see what I'm trying to say ... !!!

roshan
15 Aug 04,, 17:54
Actually, from what I can tell they are from Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990.

Confed, youre right, this is the book where the above excerpts come from.

visioninthedark
15 Aug 04,, 17:56
Confed, youre right, this is the book where the above excerpts come from.

you are one gullible chap ...

and you dont seem to see the irrationality of your post ...


you really believe that a priest would encourage people to BREAK THE COMMANDMENTS of their religion????


how much more stupid can a person get???

Praxus
15 Aug 04,, 17:58
This guy wasn't invisible, and I bet he was far more insane than religious.

So true;)

Confed999
15 Aug 04,, 17:59
whatever is quoted here goes against the fundamental commandments of Shia Islam ...
Isn't the slaughter of innocents against the fundamental commandments of Shia Islam?

Anyway, I see this comming from alot of sources. I see nothing reputabale refuting it. Perhaps you have something that does? I understand how you can see it as a spoken paradox, but there are looney Christians that say stupid stuff too! ;)

roshan
15 Aug 04,, 17:59
you are one gullible chap ...

and you dont seem to see the irrationality of your post ...

you really believe that a priest would encourage people to BREAK THE COMMANDMENTS of their religion????

how much more stupid can a person get???

Vision, I did not say that these are the teachings of Shia Islam. But these are the teachings of Ayatollah Khomeini. Often, what the fundamentalists teach has nothing to do with the real religion.

In any case, you should first read the book before dismissing the quotes given as lies.

visioninthedark
15 Aug 04,, 18:02
however much I oppose theocracy ... i think i must point out the irrationality of the thread ...



the member is thinking that in a society that was based upon shia religion ... a person asking for people to break its FUNDAMENTAL COMMANDMENTS would still be held in high esteem ...


afterall .... people were WHIPPED ... for keeping their heads uncovered ...

and holding hands ...


and you think what you wrote above is logical ...



IF YOU BELIEVE THIS .... IT IS AN INSULT TO YOUR OWN INTELLIGENCE ...

visioninthedark
15 Aug 04,, 18:03
Isn't the slaughter of innocents against the fundamental commandments of Shia Islam?

Anyway, I see this comming from alot of sources. I see nothing reputabale refuting it. Perhaps you have something that does? I understand how you can see it as a spoken paradox, but there are looney Christians that say stupid stuff too! ;)


there is an Olympic Hockey match going on between Pakistan and Germany .... gotta watch it now ...

I'll come back to this later ...

Confed999
15 Aug 04,, 18:13
there is an Olympic Hockey match going on between Pakistan and Germany
Good luck! Hope you whip their a**!!!!!

roshan
15 Aug 04,, 18:18
however much I oppose theocracy ... i think i must point out the irrationality of the thread ...

the member is thinking that in a society that was based upon shia religion ... a person asking for people to break its FUNDAMENTAL COMMANDMENTS would still be held in high esteem ...

afterall .... people were WHIPPED ... for keeping their heads uncovered ...

and holding hands ...

and you think what you wrote above is logical ...

IF YOU BELIEVE THIS .... IT IS AN INSULT TO YOUR OWN INTELLIGENCE ...

The Iranian Mullahs and Ayatollahs who follow Khomeini have recently decided that women should not be allowed to play sports or ride bikes. Is this the teaching of Shia Islam, or is it the teaching of Ayatollah Khomeini?

The Iranian judiciary has recently decided that if you play loud music, you deserve to be whipped : http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_9-8-2004_pg7_42 Is this an Islamic teaching, or is what these priests teaching against Islam?

In this website: http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=31397 A muslim priest recently wrote:

"However, the most moderate opinion and the most likely one to be correct is in favor of practicing circumcision in the moderate Islamic way indicated in some of the Prophet's hadiths ? even though such hadiths are not confirmed to be authentic. It is reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to a midwife: "Reduce the size of the clitoris but do not exceed the limit, for that is better for her health and is preferred by husbands". The hadith indicates that circumcision is better for a woman's health and it enhances her conjugal relation with her husband. It?s noteworthy that the Prophet's saying "do not exceed the limit" means do not totally remove the clitoris."

Is this an actual Islamic teaching or are these priests teaching their own fundamentalist/wrong views instead?

My point here is that religious leaders often teach things that are against their religion, so you shouldnt be so shocked that Ayatollah Khomeini taught these things.

roshan
15 Aug 04,, 19:16
Here is a Womens rights website(Homa Darabi Foundation) with Khomeini quotes: http://www.homa.org/default.asp?TOCID=2083225445

More of Khomeinis Great Wisdom:

"It is forbidden to consume the excrement of animals or their nasal secretions. But if such are mixed in minute proportions into other foods their consumption is not forbidden."

"If a man becomes aroused by a woman other than his wife but then has intercourse with his own wife, it is preferable for him not to pray if he has sweated; but if he first has intercourse with his wife and then with another woman, he may say his prayers even though he be in a sweat. A man who has ejaculated as a result of intercourse with a woman other than his wife, and who then ejaculates again while having coitus with his wife, does not have the right to say his prayers while still sweating; but if he has had intercourse with his wife first and then with a woman not his wife, he may say his prayers even though still sweating."

"If a fly or any other insect settled first on something impure that is moist and then on something pure that is moist, the later in turns becomes impure, provided one can be certain that the former was impure; failing that, it remains pure."

"During the time a woman is menstruating, it is preferable for a man to avoid coitus, even if it does not involve full penetration- that is, as far as the circumcision ring and even if it does not involve ejaculation. It is also highly inadvisable for him to sodomize her during this time.

If the number of days of the woman's menstrual period is divided by three, a husband who has intercourse with her during the first two days must pay equivalent of 18 nokhods (each nokhod is about 3 grams) of gold to the poor; if he has it on the third or fourth days the equivalent of 9 nokhods; and if he has it during the last two days, the equivalent of 41/2 nokhods. Sodomizing a menstruating woman does not require such payment.

If a man has intercourse with his wife during all three of these periods, he must pay the equivalent of 31/2 nokhods in gold to the poor. If the price of gold has changed between the time of coitus and the time of payment, the rate in effect on the day of payment will prevail.

If during an act of intercourse a man notices that the woman has begun menstruating, he must withdraw, if he fails to, he must give alms to the poor.

If such a man cannot afford to give alms to the poor, he must at least give something to a beggar. If he cannot afford that either, he must ask forgiveness of God."

The website also has the texts in farsi, which shows that it is not made up:

http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352825&TOCID=2083225445
http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352818&TOCID=2083225445

roshan
15 Aug 04,, 19:20
Heres an Iranain website with more Khomeini quotes: http://ethnikoi.org/iran.html

"If a man sodomises the son, brother, or father of his wife after their marriage, the marriage remains valid."

"If a father (or paternal grandfather) marries off his daughter (or granddaughter) in her absence without knowing for a certainty that she is alive, the marriage becomes null and void as soon as it is established that she was dead at the time of the marriage."

Asim Aquil
15 Aug 04,, 20:05
I'm not a big fan of the Iranian Leadership but this just doesn't sound right. Remember there are tons of Sunnis (and I'm one), who are out there promoting all kinds of horror stories about Shia Islam. Amongst one group of friends, some guys were like, when Shia boys and girls can't get married they goto dark rooms nude and find a mate, screw em, and then come out and get married. This story apparently got famous that once a brother and sister eneded up screwing each other. The whole story had bullshit written all over it.

The differences in Shia Islam rose over some leadership issues of the Islamic empire some long time back. Some of these morons promote this crap to put down Shias. And I think thats exactly what you've found. Plus I think what you're posting are DO's and DONT's which are purposefully poorly translated to make them sound funny and disgusting. Though yes I do not like their leadership, Most Iranians I'd say are pretty cool people.

visioninthedark
15 Aug 04,, 23:24
I'm not a big fan of the Iranian Leadership but this just doesn't sound right. Remember there are tons of Sunnis (and I'm one), who are out there promoting all kinds of horror stories about Shia Islam. Amongst one group of friends, some guys were like, when Shia boys and girls can't get married they goto dark rooms nude and find a mate, screw em, and then come out and get married. This story apparently got famous that once a brother and sister eneded up screwing each other. The whole story had bullshit written all over it.

The differences in Shia Islam rose over some leadership issues of the Islamic empire some long time back. Some of these morons promote this crap to put down Shias. And I think thats exactly what you've found. Plus I think what you're posting are DO's and DONT's which are purposefully poorly translated to make them sound funny and disgusting. Though yes I do not like their leadership, Most Iranians I'd say are pretty cool people.

I too am not a fan of Iranian mullahs AS A POLITICAL BODY.

No one could WISH MORE that THESE MULLAHS WERE RIPPED OUT OF POLITICS ...

This is clear from all my posts on ALL FORUMS where I participate ...

BUT

what Asim just said ... hits the nail right on the head ... !!

Confed999
15 Aug 04,, 23:29
So there's no way this one guy is a loon?

visioninthedark
15 Aug 04,, 23:36
So there's no way this one guy is a loon?

I wouldn't want this guy to be my president .... he's NOT a politician and his political decisions were all wrong ...


Just like you wouldn't want the pope to take over the US ... and impose himself as president ...


BUT .... on a religious level ... the guy held the same position in Shia Islam LIKE THE POPE IN CATHOLICISM ...


would it be possible for the pope to encourace homosexual relations?? ... NO IT WOULD NOT ... BECAUSE IT GOES AGAINST THE VERY FAITH HE REPRESENTS ...

SAME FOR KHOMEINI ... IT DON'T MAKE SENSE FOR SOMEONE WHO IS THE POPE IN HIS RELIGION TO WRITE THINGS THAT BREAK THE BASIC COMMANDMENTS OF RELIGION ...


I don't think that is too hard to understand .. is it?


I mean .... can the pope say satan is the rightful ruler of the world?? and all catholics should worship satan???


NO ... he can't ... why ... because ITS ILLOGICAL ...

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE ...


PLUS HIS CARDINALS WOULDN'T LET HIM REMAIN POPE IF HE SAID THAT ...



same situation here ...

THE OTHER AYATOLLAHS WOULD EX-COMMUNICATE KHOMEINI IF HE WROTE ALL THAT STUFF AGAINST THE BASIC FUNDAMENTAL COMMANDMENTS OF SHIA RELIGION ....

Confed999
15 Aug 04,, 23:46
would it be possible for the pope to encourace homosexual relations??
There are looneys in every religion, and an awful lot of people say this is true. I can't find anyone saying it's false either. Without the book, or someone with something saying it's false, I can't tell you it's right or wrong.

visioninthedark
15 Aug 04,, 23:56
he was an absolute looney when it came to politics ... AND HE SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN LEFT IN POWER TO RUIN THAT ONCE GLORIOUS NATION!!


however ... religion is another matter ... it runs on certain rules ... WHICH NO ONE CAN BREAK ...


SPECIALLY NOT THOSE WHO SIT ON THE APEX OF ITS INSTITUTIONS ...



he would have been EXCOMMUNICATED .... as simple as that ...

Bill
15 Aug 04,, 23:57
Seems to me that the people advancing the argument that these are legitimate quotes have provided an overwhelming amount of verifiable links that contain the exact quotes as evidence to back their claims.

From that, any rational person has to conclude the quotes are in fact genuine unless they have direct contradictory evidence, which is totally lacking in this debate.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that Khomenei has advanced all the ideas he is quoted for on this site.

visioninthedark
16 Aug 04,, 00:01
M21Sniper;

you just don't get it ... !!


I could post you articles about any religion and give you links and quotes ...

BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS ALL TRUE ... !!


anyone can set up a website and write anything .... DOES THAT MAKE IT TRUE?


IF I PROVIDE YOU A LINK ..... DOES IT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN THAT WHAT I POSTED IS TRUE??


I think we shouldn't be so naive ... just use your common sense ...

Ray
16 Aug 04,, 00:30
Roshan,

Though you have quoted from a book and those links I find it too ridiculous and too depraved to be said by a relgious leader, no matter which religion he may profess he is from.

Bill
16 Aug 04,, 00:32
Vision, relax, take a deep breathe.

Good, now, this is what you must realize.

NOT A SINGLE ONE OF US HERE ATTRIBUTES THE VIEWS OF AYATOLLAH KHOMENEI AS BEING IN ANY WAY REPRESENTATIVE OF THE TEACHINGS OF ISLAM.

What we should ALL be able to agree on without hesitation, is that the man was a psychotic fruit cake.

Ray
16 Aug 04,, 00:59
These websites are from Iran.

One thing one has to agree is that they have freedom of the press and media.

Imagine this book (the Little Green book or whatever) being published in Iran!

Asim Aquil
16 Aug 04,, 02:25
Errr I'm pretty sure those texts have been intentionaly poorly translated. I'd show it to an Iranian and get her word on it. Several things u translate word for word from Arabic, sound extremely weird.

For example, The whole fly in the throat thing's probably his way of saying that If something's accidentally eaten (u jump in a pool, and some water goes down, somebody puts a gun to your head, etc.) its all cool, your fasts not broken.

nasal secretion: Errr animals sniff around food y'know. usually leaving some ewwy stuff from their nose behind. I won't be surprised if all the guy was trying to say was "If the food's not been drooled on and gotten bad, don't waste it".

I'm pretty sure, the claims of Pedophilia and Animal Sex have some explanation or some totally different meanings as well. Let's see what my friend says.

Btw, it takes about 10$ to put up all kinds of stuff on it. I know there's inceasing hatred towards Iran, and it feels nice to diss everything Iranian, especially thats highly respected, by the Iranians. Iranians are pretty cool people, the focus should be at disabling their leadership. And going about it this way is totally wrong and not self-serving. It'll just align the moderates of Iran and the extremists under one banner, the protection of their religion.

Choice is yours, I'm neither Iranian nor Shia. Just saying what seems to me the smarter thing to do.

Bill
16 Aug 04,, 02:34
No, we've pretty much hated Iran since 1979.

Ray
16 Aug 04,, 08:13
Asim,

While I find the sayings more disturbing and to a great extent ridiculous and really can't believe it, yet the Sites are from IRAN.

In a country where LOUD MUSIC IS BANNED (that news is from a Pakistani paper), I also am surprised that websites carry such items. I don't think it is possible, given Iran's hardline clerics attitude, that this website if absolutely stupid would not have been blocked.

While your Iranian friend can throw light, yet this controversy can only be put at rest if the book quoted Little Green book or whatever in Persian can be got hold of by your Iranian friend and then the controversy can be put at rest.

Iran is very much in the crosshairs of the US if one goes by the news of the US TV channels.

roshan
16 Aug 04,, 15:28
Khomeinis teachings in action!

http://www.gweilodiaries.com/archives/Mullah.jpg

Jay
16 Aug 04,, 16:14
argh...fucking great!

roshan
16 Aug 04,, 16:22
argh...fucking great!

Thats probably what will happen after the kisses. :biggrin:

http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=7892 :frown:

roshan
16 Aug 04,, 16:34
BTW Dont take this as an attack on Islam. There are paedophiles everywhere.

Fo example Sai Baba who claims to have 50 million followers in India alone is a known paedophile who has raped male children studying in his school. Normally european children are targetted by him.

Aryan
16 Aug 04,, 16:46
That event you posted Jay is far more common than its reported...Most Mullahs/Maulvis in the UK are either ex holy warriors now seeking pension in the infidel west, or beggars / paedophiles from south asia or arabia. They spend to years in a mullah school somewhere in their town, and once they graduate from their mullaversity, they go straight to the British high commission for a job working in British madrassas/mosques. I can bet 90% of them are child fondlers! And you get islamic parents dropping their children off at their houses from evening to night time, and are suprised when their children tell them stories that imam sahib got his lun out! This really does happen quite a lot, after one incident in Old Trafford involving a Gujji Mualana, they used guns against the parents to threaten them not to press charges. Its sad, because children are involved, but if you are prepared to trust an old man who hasn't been layed for 30+ years with your children, you aren't a good parent.

Jay
16 Aug 04,, 19:25
That event you posted Jay is far more common than its reported...
eh...? I didnt post anything. :confused:

But anyway priests being a pedophile is nothing new, it happened here in US and Oregon Church is bankrupt after paying child molestation settlements, it might the case for Boston.

Ray
16 Aug 04,, 21:01
That photograph of the bearded bloke kissing a child fully on the mouth is unbelievably wierd. Kissing and also getting photographed? The mentality is really warped.

Nisaar
18 Aug 04,, 13:25
The Iranian Mullahs and Ayatollahs who follow Khomeini have recently decided that women should not be allowed to play sports or ride bikes. Is this the teaching of Shia Islam, or is it the teaching of Ayatollah Khomeini?


This is a sad case of sexism, something that has been plaguing Islam for a while now.
Muslims should according to the Quraan treat women as their equals.Women are allowed to be independent and even allowed to be the breadwinners of the household.

Infact, the prophets first wife was not only the breadwinner of the household, she was also his BOSS. The prophet worked for HER.


The Iranian judiciary has recently decided that if you play loud music, you deserve to be whipped : http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_9-8-2004_pg7_42 Is this an Islamic teaching, or is what these priests teaching against Islam?

In my experiences as a muslim, I have not read anywhere that music is bad for you. Infact early conversions of people to Islam was done via singing to them versus of the Quraan as these people were illiterate.

It is however common belief in Islam not to listen to Vulgarities or to listen to music to a point were it becomes intoxicating.





In this website: http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=31397 A muslim priest recently wrote:

"However, the most moderate opinion and the most likely one to be correct is in favor of practicing circumcision in the moderate Islamic way indicated in some of the Prophet's hadiths ? even though such hadiths are not confirmed to be authentic. It is reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to a midwife: "Reduce the size of the clitoris but do not exceed the limit, for that is better for her health and is preferred by husbands". The hadith indicates that circumcision is better for a woman's health and it enhances her conjugal relation with her husband. It?s noteworthy that the Prophet's saying "do not exceed the limit" means do not totally remove the clitoris."

Is this an actual Islamic teaching or are these priests teaching their own fundamentalist/wrong views instead?

My point here is that religious leaders often teach things that are against their religion, so you shouldnt be so shocked that Ayatollah Khomeini taught these things.


The problem facing muslims concerning the hadith is that people started mixing up their interpretations of the hadith with the actual hadith and in so doing, have corrupted quite a few hadiths.There is no true (to my knowledge) hadith that states that the prophet said that circumcision on women is allowed. It is not allowed.Period.Even though some naive sects of Islam practice it.

I dont think that Khomeini said the above things, because if he did, his cardinals would have taken him to task.

One thing I do know about Arabic is that you cannot dirctly translate it to English.
There could have been errors in translation here.

Ray
18 Aug 04,, 15:14
Nisaar.

I find it odd too.

Given the reputation of Iran being a very strict state with the Ayotollahs in total control, I find it very perplexing as to how these websites are from IRAN.

Can you throw some light?

roshan
18 Aug 04,, 17:55
Ray, I think that these websites are tun by the Iranian diaspora. My experience of talking to Iranians on the net is that they are very critical of the mullah regime in Iran. In other forums, I have spoken to Iranianians, and I actually found out about Khomeini from them.

Nisaar, actually those were rhetorical questions. I know that Islam allows music and that women are equal. I was asking rhetorical questions to make a point to visioninthedark that the religious leaders dont always teach the actual teachings of the religion.

Nisaar
24 Aug 04,, 14:19
There are looneys in every religion .... .


But it seems like most of them are in our religion (Islam), DAMN!

Nisaar
24 Aug 04,, 14:50
Ray, I think that these websites are tun by the Iranian diaspora. My experience of talking to Iranians on the net is that they are very critical of the mullah regime in Iran. In other forums, I have spoken to Iranianians, and I actually found out about Khomeini from them.

Nisaar, actually those were rhetorical questions. I know that Islam allows music and that women are equal. I was asking rhetorical questions to make a point to visioninthedark that the religious leaders dont always teach the actual teachings of the religion.


I'm sorry, I did'nt intend to bash you in any way.
I just thouht it was worth mentioning those things though.
These religious leaders are just full of crap!, any muslim with more than 1 and a half brain cells to rub together will agree with you.
You'll be amazed how much of bull they can talk.

We usually get different leaders from all over the world that come and give lectures in our Mosques. Quite a few of them are intellectuals who talk about some interesting things.
And then, wait for it......., you get THOSE ones. I think you no what I mean by those ones. Ones with bad breath that still use a miswaak( a piece of would used in ancient times) to brush their teeth. Why, because its SUNNAT.

These guys take things to literally. The sunnat was established to set an example of the prophets conduct to the muslims for the many things that he did that was exemplary. Surely these things don't consider using a miswaak instead of a tooth-brush. I think the emphasis of the whole thing is that the prophet was trying to say ,"BRUSH YOUR TEETH" rather than ,"BRUSH THEM WITH A MISWAAK".


What next, sell your Ferrari for a camel, because the prophet used a camel instead of a Ferrari.( Not that I have a Ferrari or anything, wish I did though and believe me I wouldn't trade it in for a camel :biggrin: )

Anyway, enough rambling on, the point I'm trying to make is that these few (Okay, quite a few) leaders of Islam take things to literally. And they are quick to talk before they understand a situation.


I think the Iranians are critical of the regime for one reason, and that is the fact that they are allowed to vote, but only allowed to vote for parties that some dude in a turban (which most people have not seen in reality) has chosen. Remember how this guy took out a party from the list in the last elections because their views on 'some things' werent correct. Werent correct to whose standards?
What kind of upcoming Democracy is that. :frown:

visioninthedark
29 Aug 04,, 04:00
THOSE WHO HAVE KNOWN ME FOR SOME TIME ON THIS BOARD AND ON OTHERS KNOW ME TO BE A STAUNCHLY SECULAR PERSON. BUT, READING ALL THE B/S/ HERE, I FEEL OBLIGED TO ACT LIKE A JUDGE, WHO, ALTHOUGH MAY NOT LIKE THE CONVICT IN THE DOCK, YET HAS TO PASS A FAIR JUDGEMENT.

THIS IS JUST SOME INFORMATION FOR THOSE WHO MAY BE CURIOUS. THE SOURCE IS A WESTERN SITE SO THERE ARE SLIGHT ERRORS IN THE WAY THE ARTICLE IS WRITTEN BUT ON THE WHOLE, IT GIVE A FAIRLY CORRECT PICTURE.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/wor...igion-shia2.htm (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/religion-shia2.htm)

Shia Religious Leadership

A marjah is the highest authority on religion and law in Shiism. Where a difference in opinion exist between the Marjah, Aalims (Religious Scholar) try to provide different opinions. Four senior Grand Ayatollahs [Ayat Allah] constitute the Religious Institution (al-Hawzah al-`Ilmiyyah) in Najaf, the preeminent seminary center for the training of Shiite clergymen.

Taqlid means acting according to the opinion of the jurist (mujtahid) who has all the necessary qualification to be emulated. So you do what the mujtahid's expert opinion says you should do, and refrain from what his expert opinion says you should refrain from, without any research [in Islamic sources] on your part. It is as though you have placed the responsibility of your deeds squarely on his shoulders. Among the conditions which must be found in a jurist (mujtahid) who can be followed is that he must be the most learned (al-a'lam) jurist of his time and the most capable in deriving the religious laws from the appropriate sources.

There are generally six ranks among Shi'ite clerics. The highest, grand ayatollah means "great sign of God". In the past, there were usually no more than five grand ayatollahs in the Shi'ite Islamic world. Today however it is suspected that there are at least seven and possibly more. Under grand ayatollah is ayatollah ("sign of God"). Below ayatollah is the rank of hojat al Islam, which is Arabic for "authority on Islam". Next is mubellegh al risala or "carrier of the message". While mujtahid often refers to clerics in general, it is also a specific rank, which denotes one has graduated from a religious seminary. At the bottom of the ladder are religious students, talib ilm. Besides the obvious factors such as graduation to be promoted to mujtahid, promotion in the ranks is a rather subjective matter. Two important factors behind promotion are the size and quality of one's student following and authorship of scholarly works on Islam.

As of late 2002 there were two generally acknowledged senior Shi’a clerics in Iraq. Prior to the American occupation, Ayatollah Al-Sayyid Ali Al-Seestani [Ali as-Sistani ] had been forbidden to lead prayers and remained under virtual house arrest in Najaf as a result of attempts on his life. Grand Ayatollah Sayed Ali Seestani, the current Shi'a spiritual leader, was attacked in his home in Najaf in November 1996, resulting in the death of one of his employees.

Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Sayeed al-Hakim, another of Iraqi's most important Shiite clerics, is the uncle of Ayatollah Muhammad Baqir al-Hakim, the leader of the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq, whose brother, `Abdul Aziz, serves on the Interim Governing Council. But Sa`id is not associated with SCIRI; he is much closer to Sistani. His cousin Grand Ayatollah Muhsin al-Hakim had been the spiritual leader of the Shia world between 1955 and 1970 and served as mentor to the founder of Iran's Islamic Republic, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.

The two other living grand ayatollahs, who along with al-Hakim and Sistani comprised the four most powerful clerics in Iraq, are Muhammad Ishaq Fayadh and Bashir Hussein al-Najafi. Both rarely speak on political issues. All are based in the Shi'a seminary -- the 'Hawza' -- in Al-Najaf, which is the highest religious authority of Iraq's majority Shi'a population. Their followers regard them as sources for religious emulation and their written opinions can carry the force of law.

At the end of the 1991 Gulf War, President George Bush urged Iraqis to topple the Baath regime, but the US did not back the Shiite uprising that ensued in southern Iraq, and the rebels were slaughtered. When the fighters of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), headed by Ayatollah Muhammad Baqir al-Hakim, poured over the border from Iran. Fears of Iranian influence over Iraqi Shiites through SCIRI was a decisive factors in the US decision not to support the uprising. Grand Ayatollah Abu Gharib al-Qassem al-Khoei sent his son Ayatollah Abdul Majid al-Khoei to contact the Americans. When he reached French lines he was told Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, commander of the allied forces, would meet him, but the meeting never took place. Afterwards, Al-Khoei went into exile.

For more than half a century, the school of the late Grand Ayatollah Imam Abul Qassim al-Khoee was an undepletable spring that enriched Islamic thought and knowledge. From his school graduated dozens of jurists, clergymen, and dignitaries who took it upon themselves to continue his ideological path which was full of achievements and sacrifices in the service of the faith, knowledge, and society. Among those are outstanding professors of parochial schools, especially Holy Najaf and Qom. Some of them have attained the level of 'ijtiihad'- competence to deduce independent legal judgment enabling them to assume the office of supreme religious authority. Others reached lofty levels qualifying them for shouldering the responsibilities of teaching and education. Most distinguished among those figures is His Eminence Grand Ayatullah as-Sayyid Ali al-Hussaini as-Seestani. He ranks among the brightest, the most qualified and knowledgeable of Imam al-Khoee's former students.

In 1991 Iraqi authorities arrested 108 Shi’a clerics and students, including 95-year-old Grand Ayatollah Abu Gharib al-Qassem al-Khoei, 10 of his family members, and 8 of his aides. Ayatollah al-Khoei subsequently was released; however, he was held under house arrest until his death in August 1992. Ayatollah Hussein Bahr al-Aloom, who was arrested in 1991, had reportedly died under questionable circumstances in June 2001.

The late Grand Ayatollah Muhsin Al-Hakim was the spiritual leader for the Shia world in the period 1955-1970. Grand Ayatollah Abul-Qasim al-Khoei received the mantle of leadership after the death of Grand Ayatollah Muhsin al-Hakim, in 1970. Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who succeeded Grand Ayatollah Abul-Qasim al-Khoei in 1992, is believed to favor keeping the Iraqi Shi'ite clergy out of politics.

Baath Governmental authorities were associated with a series of previous fatal accidents, apparently engineered, such as the well known case of Sayed Muhammed Taqi al-Khoei, son of the Grand Ayatollah al-Khoei, who died on 21 July 1994 in a suspicious car accident while returning from his weekly visit to Karbala. He was accompanied by his brother-in-law, Amin Khalkhali, his six-year-old nephew and his driver, when they crashed into an unlit truck blocking the divided highway.

Since January 1998, the killings of three internationally respected clerics and an attempt on the life of a fourth have been attributed widely to government agents by international human rights activists, other governments, and Shi’a clergy in Iran and Lebanon.

Ayatollah Shaykh Murtada al-Burujerdi was shot dead in the evening of 21 April 1998 while he was walking home with two companions after he had led congregational evening prayers at the shrine of Imam Ali. Following the 1991 Shi'a uprising in southern Iraq, Ayatollah al-Burujerdi, who at that time had been arrested for three days, began leading the daily prayers in the sacred enclosure of Imam Ali. As well as being a leader of the congregational prayers, Ayatollah al-Burujerdi was a serious candidate for the position of Marja. It was reported that Ayatollah al-Burujerdi had been asked by the Iraqi authorities to give up his post as leader of the prayers at the shrine of Imam Ali, but he refused.

Grand Ayatollah Shaykh Mirza Ali al-Gharawi (68 years old) was assassinated on 18 June 1998 in his car on the route between the holy cities of Karbala and Najaf. He was accompanied by his son-in-law, driver and another companion. According to information from persons claiming to have been witnesses, the car of Ayatollah al-Gharawi was stopped and all four passengers of the car were then shot dead on the spot. Ayatollah al-Gharawi was a well-respected religious scholar and was also a senior spiritual leader (or Marja) of Shi'a Muslims.

Ayatollah Sheikh Bashir al Hussaini escaped an attempt on his life in January 1999.

Grand Ayatollah Mohammad al-Sadr [aged 66], the leading Shi`a cleric in Iraq, was assassinated in Najaf while driving home on the evening of 19 February 1999 along with his two sons and chief assistants, Mustafa and Mu`ammal, and their driver. The government had recognized al-Sadr as grand ayatollah in 1992, but in the months preceding his death he had begun distancing himself from the government in Friday sermons and urging people, against government wishes, to attend mass prayer gatherings. Following the murder of Ayatollah al-Sadr there were widespread reports of at least four days of heavy clashes between protesters and security forces in heavily Shi`a neighborhoods of Baghdad such as Medinat al-Thawra and in majority Shi`a cities such as Karbala, Nasriyya, Najaf, and Basra in which scores were killed and hundreds arrested. According to Iraq’s opposition groups, the latest killings unleashed a mini-insurrection. They claim the army besieged Najaf. United Nations observers, monitoring fooddistribution in Iraq, passed through Najaf on the day of the supposed siege and noticed nothing unusual.

In mid-April 2003 Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim, who had lived in exile in Iran for 23 years, and Ayatollah Abdul Majid al-Khoei, who had lived in exile in London for 12 years, both returned to the holy city of Najaf to organize their followers. The two men were leaders of the most important Shiite families in Iraq. Each man's father had served as the supreme religious authority in the Shiite world for more than 20 years. They had both been betrayed by America after the 1991 Gulf War. And by the end of August 2003 both had been assassinated.

At the beginning of the American invasion of Iraq in March 2003, Baqir al-Hakim instructed SCIRI elements in Basra, Najaf, Karbala and other cities not to start an uprising or support the US-led coalition. To supporters Baqir al-Hakim's arrival was the Khomeini-like return from exile of a man who is due — at the very least — a place among the Iraqis who will form the country’s interim leadership. To his opponents Hakim had been away too long and is too close to Tehran, where he lived while his people fought a bloody eight-year war with Iran. Al-Hakim warned repeatedly that the US would face armed resistance if its forces stayed too long after ridding Iraq of Hussein's regime. Al-Hakim was far less accommodating to coalition interests than al-Khoei and said, "We refuse to put ourselves under the thumb of the Americans or any other country, because that is not in the Iraqis' interest."

On 10 April 2003 Shiite Ayatollah Abdul Majid Al-Kohei was assassinated by a knife attack in Najaf after arriving from London. Majid was the son of the late Grand Ayatollah al-Khoei, spiritual leader of Iraq's Shi'ites at the time of the 1991 Gulf War. Al-Kohei was a moderate and his competition with Grand Ayatollah Al-Hakim (who also headed to Najaf from his base in Iran) would have helped the American occupation. Al-Khoei had a better relationship with the United States, and his quick return to Najaf - with American assistance - was part of the Bush administration's effort to draw support away from al-Hakim. Although al-Khoei was usually accompanied by coalition forces, the officers do not enter the mosque and so were unable to rescue him. Abdul Majid was stabbed to death at the Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf, one of the holiest shrines for Shi'ite Muslims. The murder raised tensions among Iraq's majority Shi'ite population. The perception of al-Khoei as a US puppet was strengthened by the subsequent admission by Washington that it had channeled $13 million dollars to him.

On 24 August 2003 a bomb exploded outside the house of Grand Ayatollah Muhammad Said al-Hakim, killing 3 guards and injuring 10 other people. Ayatollah Muhammad Sa`id al-Hakim was slightly wounded in the neck by flying glass when a bomb went off outside his offices in Najaf, shortly after he finished his prayers. Four men in a car dropped a canister of cooking gas near the wall of the house beside the room where the grand ayatollah and his son were resting. Bodyguards noticed a flame coming from the top of the canister before it exploded, killing two of the guards and another household employee. Ten of his aides were wounded. Grand Ayatollah Muhammad Said al-Hakim is the uncle of Ayatollah Mohammed Bakir al-Hakim, the leader of the best-organized Shi'a party, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq [SCIRI].

Ayatollah Muhammad Sa'id al-Hakim headed one of Iraq's most powerful clerical families. The family included his nephew Ayatollah Muhammad Baqir al-Hakim, who led the best-organized Iraqi Shi'a group, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI). The group waged a long guerrilla campaign against deposed leader Saddam Hussein from exile in Iran until the US overthrew the Iraqi regime in April 2003. Subsequently, SCIRI modified its traditional calls for an Islamic system in Iraq and now says it is ready to work toward that goal within a democratic framework. A representative of SCIRI is one of the 25 members of the US-appointed Governing Council in Baghdad.

The bomb attack called new attention to the potentially violent political divides among Iraqi Shi'a organizations. While no one knows who was behind the attack, suspicion in Al-Najaf immediately fell upon political rivals of the al-Hakim family. And those enemies -- thanks to the family's prominence -- are numerous.

On 29 August 2003 a car bomb exploded during Friday prayers in Al-Najaf outside the Imam Ali Mosque, killing Ayatollah Muhammad Baqir al-Hakim, the head of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), and many others. Over a hundred people were killed, and several times that many were reported to be injured at the mosque, which is the most holy shrine for Shi'ite Muslims in Iraq. There had been considerable unrest among the religious factions in the holy city, 175 kilometers southwest of Baghdad. Al-Hakim was the brother of Abd al-Aziz al-Hakim, who is a member of the Iraqi Governing Council. Baqir al-Hakim, who was 66 years old, returned to Iraq on 10 May after 23 years in exile in Iran.

Ray
29 Aug 04,, 09:06
If Ayotollahs are the undisputed spiritual leaders, then why have been assassinnated or attempt on their lives made?

Prima facie, it appears, that some did not accept that their edicts were sacrosant. Therefore, there appears to be a dichotomy between the perception of 'all knowing and undisputable' to the actualties on ground.

Another question I have and that is - Is the Grand Ayotollah's edicts applicable to all Shias the world over?

visioninthedark
29 Aug 04,, 09:09
If Ayotollahs are the undisputed spiritual leaders, then why have been assassinnated or attempt on their lives made?

Prima facie, it appears, that some did not accept that their edicts were sacrosant. Therefore, there appears to be a dichotomy between the perception of 'all knowing and undisputable' to the actualties on ground.

dear Ray,

as usual, true to your habit, you jump to presumptions ...

I have given you above the SHIA RELIGIOUS HEIRARCHY ...

THIS STRICTLY APPLIES TO SHIAS .....


WAHHABIS ON THE OTHER HAD REGARD THIS WHOLE ORGANIZED RELIGION AS A UNISLAMIC CONCOCTION ... AND THEREFORE EXTREME SUNNIS AND WAHHABIS HAVE CONSTANTLY TARGETTED SHIA RELIGIOUS LEADERSHIP ...


NO DICHOTOMY WITHIN SHIAISM ... THE ATTACKERS ARE EXTREME SUNNI AND/OR WAHABBI ... RECENTLY THE AL QAEDA HAS TAKEN UP THAT RESPONSIBILITY IN ORDER TO SAVE "PURE (WAHABBI)" ISLAM ...

Ray
29 Aug 04,, 12:58
Visionman,

As usual you jump to conclusions instead.

I asked to you question that you have not answered - Is it mandatory for all Shias the world over to follow the edict of the Grand Ayotollah. After all he is an Iranian, while others are not. Therefore, there will be cultural difference or so I feel. Its like the Pope who is anti abortion (and maybe he is correct), but many Catholics don't take it as the Gospel truth!

If I wanted to know about Sunnis, I would ask Asim. If I wanted to know about Wahabis, I would have asked Prince Faisal of Saudi Arabia.

If you don't know the answer say so. It would be period!

Confed999
29 Aug 04,, 15:03
Seemed like 2 good questons to me, I'd actually like to know the answers...

visioninthedark
30 Aug 04,, 01:28
Ray,

I am not talking about myself and all those other secular shias like myself ... since they don't prioritize religion in our lives anyways ...

by, for the practicing shias ... yes ... the grand ayatollah is like the pope and his verdict on religious matters is considered the final religious judgement on any matter ... and so they are voluntarilt obliged to follow his edicts if they wish to be considered as "practicing" shias ...

all over the world .. all shia institutions and clergy would immediately accept and convey his decisions ...

so ... yes ...

Ayatollah Ali Seestani (who is Iranian by origin) has the final say in matters of religion ...

BUT

I hope you realize that this applies to practicing shias who seek guidance on any problem where they feel the need for a religious decision ..

Najaf is like the Vatican ...

and Grand Ayatollah Seestani is the same as the Pope for Catholics ...

visioninthedark
30 Aug 04,, 01:31
infact you can contact Grand Ayatollah Seestani through his website

www.sistani.org

you can put forward any question regarding faith and religion and within a week you'll get an official reply with his official seal and signature sent to your e-mail.

It doesn't matter what religion you're from, everyone can ask questions and will get replies.

visioninthedark
30 Aug 04,, 01:33
ohh and let me reffirm again ... there is no dichotomy among the shias and all attempts at assasination were made by sunni extremist government agents and/or sad-damn's men ...

Ray
30 Aug 04,, 09:46
What is the proof that Sunnis did it i.e. the assassination attempts. I don't dispute what you say but without proof it is the same deabte as to what came before? The egg or the Chicken.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if those inimical to the Shia cult of Islam were behind these attempts. In my country the Shias are more peaceable than the Sunnis. They are more receptive to rid the anomalies of interpretation of the religious texts and keeping pace with the changed circumstances from the medieval times. However, they are the minority. Therefore, their voice gets drowned by the shouting brigade. It was the same thing when a Shia leader was elected as the Boss of the Hurriyat in Kashmir. He was forced into the corner.

Do you have the statistics of Shias and Sunnis in Iran and Iraq?

I used to know some Iranian professors and they were real nice folks. They were not the fire and brimstones type like Ayotollah Khomeni. I found them very tolerant.

I reckon a generalised education (beyond religious bigoted scriptures) makes all the difference.

visioninthedark
30 Aug 04,, 17:39
Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if those inimical to the Shia cult of Islam were behind these attempts. In my country the Shias are more peaceable than the Sunnis. They are more receptive to rid the anomalies of interpretation of the religious texts and keeping pace with the changed circumstances from the medieval times. However, they are the minority. Therefore, their voice gets drowned by the shouting brigade. It was the same thing when a Shia leader was elected as the Boss of the Hurriyat in Kashmir. He was forced into the corner.

Do you have the statistics of Shias and Sunnis in Iran and Iraq?

I used to know some Iranian professors and they were real nice folks. They were not the fire and brimstones type like Ayotollah Khomeni. I found them very tolerant.

I reckon a generalised education (beyond religious bigoted scriptures) makes all the difference.


You are being very insulting when you describe a whole religion as a cult!

Besides, I don't know why you bring up a dead priest again ...

all I was doing was explaining the religious heirarchy within shia islam ...

please lets not stoop down to the level of calling each other's religions "clts" ..

besides, there is a fundamental difference between the definition of "cult" and "religion" ...

since you call it the "shia cult" ... going by the same ... I could call the pope as being the leader of "THE catholic cult" ...

lets remain within the boundaries of manners and decency, specially when talking about popes and religions ...

visioninthedark
30 Aug 04,, 17:42
ohh ... about the part as to how we know who killed these top religious leaders ... well ... sad-damn never hid his works ... infact he used to boast proudly about whoever he got rid of ...

and you only have to hear the extremist mindsets of "cults" such as the al-qaeda to understand the rest ...

its strange ...


all I see at present is a Grand Ayatollah trying to bring about peace ... yet you don't see it ...

Jay
30 Aug 04,, 18:28
You are being very insulting when you describe a whole religion as a cult!

Not that I'm disrespectful or something, Islam is religion while Shia is a sect.

And now, semantics, I guess Shia Islam confines to these definitions of cult,

Main Entry: Shia
Pronunciation: 'shE-(")ä
Function: noun
Etymology: Arabic shI'ah sect
1 : the Muslims of the branch of Islam comprising sects believing in Ali and the Imams as the only rightful successors of Muhammad and in the concealment and messianic return of the last recognized Imam -- compare SUNNI
2 : SHIITE
3 : the branch of Islam formed by the Shia


Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k&lt
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Main Entry: sect
Pronunciation: 'sekt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English secte, from Middle French & Late Latin & Latin; Middle French, group, sect, from Late Latin secta organized ecclesiastical body, from Latin, course of action, way of life, probably from sectari to pursue, frequentative of sequi to follow -- more at SUE
1 a : a dissenting or schismatic religious body; especially : one regarded as extreme or heretical b : a religious denomination
2 archaic : SEX 1 <so is all her sect -- Shakespeare>
3 a : a group adhering to a distinctive doctrine or to a leader b : PARTY c : FACTION

Courtesy: http://m-w.com/

visioninthedark
30 Aug 04,, 18:41
so ... "branch" is the right word ...

rhytha
30 Aug 04,, 20:09
Khomeinis teachings in action!

http://www.gweilodiaries.com/archives/Mullah.jpg

:rolleyes:

Ray
30 Aug 04,, 22:32
Cult/sect/branch/religion. Well, no disrespect meant.

Let's say a different stream of interpretation, if that please you. If that is also disrespectful, again my apologies.

Your statement 'when you describe a whole religion as a cult leaves me bewildered. I apologise because I didn't know that Shias were a different religion. I thought they were just another interpretation of Islam with followers.

visioninthedark
31 Aug 04,, 00:22
NO PROBLEM .... NO OFFENSE TAKEN ..

P.S.

That pic is NOT of Khomeini ...


I hate his politics and I totally think he was a loony in POLITICS, but to associate absurd religious claims that go against the very commandments that he himself vowed to uphold as a cleric .... now that was totally wierd and impossible!

Besides ... I have already explained in the thread .... if he had deviated from the commandments of religion, his own cardinals would have sentenced him to death!

So I hate his guts in politics, but I try to be fair when it comes to religion.


Why?



Because I like to seperate religion and politics.


Looks like certain people who come from "secular" countries are having a hard time making that distinction!!


Attack his politics all you want ... but not his religion!


Khomeini preached Shia Islam ... so by saying that this is what Khomeini preached (which automatically implies that no cardnal or other priest opposed it - since if they would have, he wouldn't have been able to preach it) you are indirectly saying that this is what shia islam is all about ...


besides ... a single peodophile priest does not mean that this is the whole religion ...


I could post the pic of a gay priest in Boston and label it ... "THIS IS WHAT THE POPE PREACHES" ...

do please .... keep your political animosity just that .... political ...

no need to slander a whole religion ...

Ray
31 Aug 04,, 00:26
I remain bewildered still as to how you call Shias 'a whole relgion'.

I wasn't apologising. I said in case my contention was incorrect, then that would be the case. So, please don't jump to conclusion and get condescending.

visioninthedark
31 Aug 04,, 01:24
I remain bewildered still as to how you call Shias 'a whole relgion'.

I wasn't apologising. I said in case my contention was incorrect, then that would be the case. So, please don't jump to conclusion and get condescending.

You can take the horse to the water but you can't force it to drink!

I've made my points logically and rationally.

Lets stick to the topic, shall we?

Ray
31 Aug 04,, 01:38
Logic?

The science of correct reasoning; science which describes relationships among propositions in terms of implication, contradiction, contrariety, conversion.

The topic is the Grabd Sayings of Ayotollah.

It is over. Read my posts. I didn't believe it. Rather contradictory to religious edicts, especially of a strict religion like Islam where a dissenter can be issued a Fatwah of death like Salman Rushdie (A Kashmiri).

My doubts arose since it was from an Iranian web site. I am surprised (I mentioned this also) as to how such a website can flourish in Iran.

This dichotomy of a claimed repressive regime and yet also allowing such websites that shows kissing on the lips of men on men and such (to my mind) blasphemous saying attributed to the Ayotollah (who is like the Pope to the Shia the world over) befuddles me immensely.

visioninthedark
31 Aug 04,, 01:40
Logic?

The science of correct reasoning; science which describes relationships among propositions in terms of implication, contradiction, contrariety, conversion.

The topic is the Grabd Sayings of Ayotollah.

It is over. Read my posts. I didn't believe it. Rather contradictory to religious edicts, especially of a strict religion like Islam where a dissenter can be issued a Fatwah of death like Salman Rushdie (A Kashmiri).

My doubts arose since it was from an Iranian web site. I am surprised (I mentioned this also) as to how such a website can flourish in Iran.

This dichotomy of a claimed repressive regime and yet also allowing such websites that shows kissing on the lips of men on men and such (to my mind) blasphemous saying attributed to the Ayotollah (who is like the Pope to the Shia the world over) befuddles me immensely.

Thank you.

We are in total agreement here!

porsteamboy
26 Sep 04,, 01:12
Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini (1900-1989) born on May 17, Iranian religious leader. He was the Supreme Leader of Iran, 1979-89 and leader of Shiite Moslems in Iran.

Now, for his great words of wisdom:

"If a fly gets into the throat of one who is fasting, it is not necessary to pull it out."

"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he
should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and
damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her
life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives.
The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister."

"A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on.
However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not
sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to
the next door village should be fine."

"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrement become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed and as quickly as possible and burned."

************************************************** **************

What amazing wisdom! It is simply divine. Ayatollahs, sign me up!!!
Not too different from Alabama's state constituion!

Amled
30 Sep 04,, 16:31
Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini (1900-1989) born on May 17, Iranian religious leader. He was the Supreme Leader of Iran, 1979-89 and leader of Shiite Moslems in Iran.

Now, for his great words of wisdom:

"If a fly gets into the throat of one who is fasting, it is not necessary to pull it out."

"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he
should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and
damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her
life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives.
The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister."

"A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on.
However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not
sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to
the next door village should be fine."

"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrement become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed and as quickly as possible and burned."

************************************************** **************

What amazing wisdom! It is simply divine. Ayatollahs, sign me up!!!

This thread right from its first posting was extremely interesting. The very nature of its contents taken together with the alleged author, made it at the same time deeply disturbing.
On first reading it, the most obvious thought to come to mind was that it was an extremely clever attempt of disinformation; a view shared in many of the later postings. Later, after a number of postings apparently confirmed the authenticity of the source, a case was made for errors in translation of the material.
I am just wondering, if among the Muslim members of this forum there exists one or more; or someone with an acquaintances or associates, capable of reading the original Farsi, the language the book “Tahrirolvasyleh” if authentic or simply a clever fake, was written.
If simply a clever piece of disinformation it deserves to be debunked for the fake it is. But if authentic, both as to content and author, the implications are almost beyond belief.
Again if authentic, it shows that the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini a man who’s politics I personally found offensive, but whose piety and religious convictions apparently were beyond reproach, as a hypocrite and morally defective paedophile.
More then that, it will show that the theocratic government of Iran who have elevated this man to almost saint like status, as corrupt and morally defective as the author of this contemptible book.
This is all supposing that the work is authentic, which is why its provenance should be verified.
A case may also be made for the fact that if authentic, it is just the rambling ravings of a single deluded lunatic. That it would be unfair and unjust to castigate the faith of the ruling class of an entire country for one mans excesses. This is true in part, the faith should not be held responsible, but the theocratic leadership should! For the aforementioned ruling class have placed this man on a saintly pedestal, then; if the books authenticity is vindicated, its time to show that this symbol of piety and religious devotion didn’t just have feet of clay, but that they were mired in excrement. Also that the religious leaders when made aware of his apparent abnormality did not remove him from office because of own self-interest, were equally morally corrupt.

mostlymad
30 Sep 04,, 17:22
Amled, those are great reasons for checking the authenticity. I'd like to know. If it's proven to be fabricated simply to offend, then showing people this can help them learn not to believe all they read (amazing some people still need to learn this!!) and wake them up to the deliberate attempts of some to spread hatred through such means.

And as you said, if it proves to be true...well, just as you said. Beautifully, I might add. :)

Amled
07 Oct 04,, 12:28
Well since there hasn't been any answer from Muslim members of this forum regarding Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeinis vile and disgusting ramblings I did a little bit of seaching on my own and came up with this website: http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352748&TOCID=2083225413
On this site there is also a purported version of the original Farsi segment from Khomeinis book Tahrirolvasyleh.
Now I can't attest to the veracity of this site nor the contents, but this together with the sheer number of references to be found using a simple Google seach with Tahrirolvasyleh as the key word, would tend to support the contention that Khomeini did write this tripe.
This being the case it utterly discredits the entire ruling theocratic leadership of present day Iran. And why? Because they venerate this degenerate as a saint, and praise his virtue and his piety. He is seen as the founder of the present regime. A regime that has its very basis in his teachings and attitudes. The teachings and attitudes of a demented paedophillic lunatic.
This more then anything should show that the present ruling theocratic caste of Iran is as morally corrrupt as its "venerated" Founder.

mostlymad
07 Oct 04,, 14:15
thanks for the research, Amled. Truly disturbing.