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ajay_ijn
25 Nov 06,, 17:47
A missile v/s missile test on Sunday

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=7761


India will for the first time fire two home grown missiles against each other on Sunday to validate the capability of the weapon to achieve its design parameters, officials said.

Termed the Prithvi Air Defence Exercise, one missile will be fired from the shore-based Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur-on-sea and the other from Inner Wheeler Island, both of which are located 150 km from state capital Bhubaneswar, sources said.

“If their trajectory is perfectly aligned, it would be termed a success of the operational status of the Prithvi-II missile,” they added. The aim of the exercise is to test the missile’s ability to provide an air-shield cover to important Indian metros of India against hostile attacks.
------------------

why will anybody test two Missiles to check the trajectory??
I am confused, what is this exactly?

joey2
25 Nov 06,, 19:00
Yes its a possible ABM tests.
BR guys predicted this loong ago , even if you were in orkut there was something going on there.
Remember Agni to be tested early next year? ;)



Exercise to test air-shield cover for train stations under hostile attack

BALASORE: India was scheduled to fire two home-grown missiles against each other to measure weapon capability and secure design parameters, officials said on Friday.

The Prithvi Air Defence Exercise (PADE), the first ever of its kind, was expected to take place on Sunday, a defence official told the IANS news agency.

Under this framework, he said, one missile would be fired from the shore-based Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur-on-Sea and the other from Inner Wheeler Island, both of which are located 150 kilometres from Orissa’s state capital of Bhubaneswar.
“If their trajectory is perfectly aligned, the operational status of the Prithvi-II missile would be termed a success,” the official said.

The aim of the exercise was to test the missile’s ability to provide an air-shield cover to India train stations under hostile attack, he added.

The Prithvi is one of five missiles being developed under the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). First tested in 1988, Prithvi-I has a range of 150 kilometres and can carry conventional or low-yield nuclear warheads for use against troops or armoured formations.

Its two variants, the Prithvi-II and Prithvi-III, have a range of 250 kilometres and 350 kilometres, respectively.

Prithvi-II was first tested in January 1996. It flew 250 kilometres and is said to have accurately landed at a pre-determined point. The Indian army has already inducted Prithvi I and II.
Prithvi-III was successfully test-fired for the first time in October 2004.

Prithvi-II was again test fired on Nov 19 of this year and a scientist involved in the mission said that its meeting of all test parameters “has prompted us to conduct the air defence exercise and we hope the first ever experiment will also be fruitful”.

]“While the missile from the ITR will be the attacker, the missile from Wheeler Island would act as the defender and will be fired five seconds later,” he added.[/B]

The air defence exercise would be followed by a three-day national conference on range technology, scheduled to be held from Nov 28-30 at the ITR and inaugurated by President APJ Abdul Kalam.

Fifteen renowned scientists from the United States, Britain, France, Germany and Denmark are also expected to attend the conference. online

IMO Solid stage has been added, missile made lighter they r not reseasing specs though.
I'm 99% sure its ABM.

joey2
25 Nov 06,, 19:02
Does India has the Boost Phase IR detection tech then :O

Guys 100's of things are happening in our forces within these months they are ramping up hugely!!

y_raj
26 Nov 06,, 04:32
do you mean the both missiles were prithvis ?
prithvi was the ressurection of the project devil which was a reverse engineered sa-2. does they mean to convert prithvi back to its SAM / ABM role .

OR It is a new development of the akash which is also projected to be developed as an ATBM?

ajay_ijn
26 Nov 06,, 05:48
Yes its a possible ABM tests.
BR guys predicted this loong ago , even if you were in orkut there was something going on there.
Remember Agni to be tested early next year? ;)


IMO Solid stage has been added, missile made lighter they r not reseasing specs though.
I'm 99% sure its ABM.

I am shocked, frankly when did all this Happen, when did india plan to test liquid fuelled missile as an ABM??
How come a Ballistic Missile be used as an ABM??
did happened in early cold war days right??

There must be some technical issues & thats why we don't see any Ballistic Missile as an Anti-Ballistic Missile in todays world.

Archer
27 Nov 06,, 08:00
Please read ArunSs post on BR for a good idea of the various options available, for optimum ABM propulsion tech.

ajay_ijn
27 Nov 06,, 08:14
Please read ArunSs post on BR for a good idea of the various options available, for optimum ABM propulsion tech.
can you give me link to those pages, coz BR has so many topics.
i want to know how feasible is Prthvi when modified into SAM.

Samudra
27 Nov 06,, 10:30
Look here :

Indian Missile Technology Discussion (http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=2670)

Dont be so lazy next time. :tongue:

Archer
27 Nov 06,, 10:38
Here is my assessment of the situation:

1. The interceptor being called as Prithvi is a cover for a similar sized ABM missile. I would call this ABM by the name 'Baan' (Sanskrit for arrow)
2. Baan ABM that has been reportedly tested earlier against aerial targets and this is the first test against real BM.
3. Some subtle hint and some other open source info makes me believe that this ABM is 0.65 meter diameter and its booster weighting ~2200Kg.
4. This first version may not have a second stage, thus is suitable for 200-300Km range Short range BM. The same missile can also provide protection against 800Km Ghauri but for a smaller protection (defended) bubble.
5. This first Baan test against Prithvi is to prove out the interceptor (seeker and control system), the long range precision radar and the overall automated ABM system.
6. They will take the next step to add a second stage (fier composite; ~ 400 -500Kg) to make it a MRBM interceptor suitable for 800-1500Km missiles.
7. This would require two types of radars. Undoubtly Rajendra and/or its derivative


Yes right thanks for the explanation

Some time back AW&ST had carried a detailed report on the US Layered Defence System , Its suppose to work as/in a 3 Tier Layered Defence System, Speaking purely from Interceptor POV (ground based ), The upper tier above the atmosphere is suppose to be taken care by the new NMD Interceptors providing Multiple shots at the incoming Missile , If that misses then the Mid-Tier is suppose to be taken care by the THAAD system , The THAAD will provide a chance to have 2 hits at the Target , If that fails too then the lower tier ( < 50 Km Altitude ) is suppose to be taken care by PAC-3.

The interesting thing is all the Three Ground Based Interceptors uses the Hit-To-Kill Technology .

Ofcourse its just a small piece of the Big Picture as the Navy has its own interceptors , ABL and so on and so forth.

Coming back to India , IMHO if Funds Permitting a Limited but Credible National Missile Defence ( NMD(India) ) based on similar 3 Tier system can be developed , Not to understimate the fact NMD (I) will require substantial EW and other assets.

But a Upper Tier system based on Modified Agni Interceptors ( Agni-1 ) , A mid tier system based on DRDO new ( > 100 Km ) Interceptor and the lower tier system based on Arrow/Akash system can provide a limited minimum credible MD system.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/11/27/stories/2006112719980100.htm


T. S. Subramaniam of the Hindu (whose report is posted just above) is the most reliable reporter on the space program and about anything related to scientific/technological development in general. He has the closest access to ISRO/DRDO and is the successor to N. Gopal Raj in the Hindu. If he mentions the fifth variant of the Prithvi, one can be reasonably sure that he has cross checked that part and ensured it is accurate.

Once again BR and specifically Arun is way ahead of the curve. Hats off to you, Arun, for your predictions based on open-source material.

The fact that the Prithvi name is being used for the air-defence missile is interesting, given that the missile is a derivative of the Devil SSM project, whose engine in turn was based on a reverse-engineered air defence missile.


Now, Prithvi test-firing to shield nation
Friday November 24 2006 10:45 IST

BALASORE: The positive US Senate vote to the Indo-US nuclear deal a few days back has been a morale booster for India which is going full steam on defence preparedness.

On Sunday, it successfully test-fired the nuclear-capable, surface-to-surface, Short Range Ballistic Missile (SRBM) Prithvi-II. And now it is the turn of Prithvi Air Defence Exercise (PADE).

First of its exercise in the country, it will check the operational effectiveness of Prithvi-II. For the last one month, preparations for it are afoot at the Integrated Test Range (ITR), Chandipur-on-Sea and Inner Wheeler Island, Dhamra.

The range integration exercise is already complete and the new experimentation is scheduled for November 26, to be conducted simultaneously from both the test ranges.

‘We are happy that the P-II missile met all the parameters and covered the distance as expected. It covered about 158 km in 5.4 minutes,’ a defence source said, adding that the successful test-firing provided the impetus for the air defence exercise (ADE).

During the exercise, two P-II missiles, one each from launching complex-3 (LC-3) of the ITR and LC-4 on the Inner Wheeler Island, would be fired. Both the missiles will have an alignment in the air before dropping into the sea.

‘While the missile from the LC-3 will be the attacker, the LC-4 missile would be the defender. A P-II missile from LC-4 would be fired hardly five seconds after the launching of another P-II from LC-3. If they strike each other with perfect alignment, then it would be assumed successful,’ defence sources said.

The main objective of the exercise is to provide an air-shield (cover) to important metros, the defence source said, adding that the missile would be parked close to the Indo-Pak and Sino-Indian borders during wartime.

The successful exercise would consolidate India’s position among the nuclear capable South-East Asian countries. Prithvi-II missile system, designed especially for the IAF, would be inducted shortly, sources added.

The PADE would be followed by a three-day national conference on range technology from November 28 at the ITR. It is scheduled to be inaugurated by President A P J Abdul Kalam and will be attended by 15 defence scientists from the US, the UK, France, Germany and Denmark.


Interesting stuff- was too tired to get some more details mentioned.

Archer
27 Nov 06,, 10:41
Per my own research/ WAG/ call it what you will, Indias two GreenPines will assist its ABM sensor chain, and it is currently developing its own long range radars to supplement them.

ajay_ijn
27 Nov 06,, 11:37
Look here :

Indian Missile Technology Discussion (http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=2670)

Dont be so lazy next time. :tongue:
no dude i was not lazy, intead i am eager to know about the details. I was really confused:confused: and didn't knew it was normal test or something Special.

anywayz thanks very much :)

(i was angry when you said lazy :mad: but didn't see the smiley :tongue: )

joey2
27 Nov 06,, 12:26
ABSOLUTELY AMAZING


In a major breakthrough, the country's defence scientists today successfully carried out a surface to surface missile (SSM) interception over the Bay of Bengal brightening the prospects of development of an indigenous anti-missile shield.

A target Prithvi missile was launched from Interim Missile Test Range near here at Chandipur, at 1015 hours, its trajectory continously monitored and then it was successfully intercepted by another missile fired from the Wheeler Islands.

Though, the Navy has successfully conducted missile interceptions over sea using Israeli Barak missiles, this was for the first time defence scientists have successfully carried out interception of a surface to surface missile missile (SSM), which could bring some relief as India actively faces a threat from the presence of nuclear capabile missile in the neighbourhood.

The interceptor missile, which was in anti-missile mode, was not not indentified by the DRDO officials who said "the interceptor missile had inertial guidance mid-course and active-seeker guidance in its terminal phase".

DRDO had for years been working on making Trishul missile into an indigenous anti-missile system trying to incorporate into it the capability of taking on multi-targets at the same time. But the missile had failed many of its critical tests.

http://www.business-standard.com/common/storypage_c_online.php?leftnm=11&bKeyFlag=IN&autono=17978
wE HAVE ir BOOST PHASE dETECTION TECH!

joey2
27 Nov 06,, 12:27
Sorry my last line was againt this argument.


Given the 7second time window for the interception -- there must have been some kind of "seeking" mechanism on the second missile! Possibly IR or radar seeker !!

!!!

kams
27 Nov 06,, 15:57
Some more news on the ABM, It appears that Prithvi is not the ABM.
India develops new anti-missile system (http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200611271965.htm)


New Delhi, Nov. 27 (PTI): India today unveiled an indigenous supersonic anti-missile system with defence scientists saying it had the capability to intercept incoming ballistic missiles thousands of miles away.

Labelled only as AXO (Atmospheric Intercept System), the supersonic missile underwent its baptism when it successfully intercepted a surface-to-surface Prithvi target missile at an altitude of 40 to 50 km over the seas off the interim test range site in Chandipur in Orissa.

"It is a new missile and not part of country's Integrated Guided Missile programme," top DRDO officials said on the condition of anonymity.

"We have been working on this anti-missile system for years," scientists said and claimed that missile had its own mobile launcher, secure data link for interception, independent tracking and homing capability and its own radar.

"The missile has response time of 30 seconds and once it detects a target it can be launched in 50 seconds," the scientists said.

While, affirming that India would still be observing the US Patriot-III anti missile shield, which Washington is developing, the scientists said that the Indian missiles was "in the class of its own".

DRDO did not reveal the contours of the new system developed, hinting that more interception trials could be on the cards.

ajay_ijn
27 Nov 06,, 16:16
Prithvi target missile at an altitude of 40 to 50 km over the seas off the interim test range site in Chandipur in Orissa

40km altitude :eek: OMG. Thats too high, even S-300 doesn't have that much capability.

Archer
28 Nov 06,, 00:08
India has aimed to make the most of what it makes locally, this means that whatever it has developed via the IGMDP- the Agni series and Prithvi, plus ISRO boosters and propellants, will be available for this program.

Jay
28 Nov 06,, 04:36
"The missile has response time of 30 seconds and once it detects a target it can be launched in 50 seconds," the scientists said.
Got to bring that down and this "may" work to kill any Pakistani SRBM's. But, as a fact we know that China has demonstrated its strike power through their SRBM's/MRBM's and these may be not that useful to save us from a barrage of BM's.

So using a missile to kill another would not be cost effective wrt China.

Archer
28 Nov 06,, 06:21
Look at the first comment by Arun S, he marks out the growth path for this system.

Archer
28 Nov 06,, 06:27
The funny thing is that this has DRDOs top team working on it, so they might yet pull it off. Per what has been previously reported, the GOI had DRDO concentrate on the strategic part of IGMDP, whilst the tactical ones lagged- hence the productionized, Agni-1,2,2AT, Prithvi's-1,2 etc. Whereas, the Akash is still pulling along and the Nag has had a protracted development timeline as well. But the group currently leading the ABM Project is headed by Dr Vijay Kumar Saraswat, the same person who productionized the Prithvi series and was handpicked by Kalam to lead the project. He is now touching 60, and ages ago, as a chubby 40 year old, was remarked to be one of DRDO's "young scientists" who would make a differnce, and so he did. He was ultimately awarded the Padma Shri, one of the few scientists who has earned the same (India normally uses such awards to display public respect for its achievers; as GOI does not compensate monetarily). His leading the project bodes well for it.

Lets see and wait and watch.

bull
28 Nov 06,, 06:41
This is ineed some good news,and that too refreshingly coming from DRDO.

1bs
28 Nov 06,, 14:21
Sounds like another scam from DRDO.

Tronic
28 Nov 06,, 16:15
Sounds like another scam from DRDO.
lol, monkey goes Boo boo.... or is that troll???

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 16:51
Sounds like another scam from DRDO.I tend to agree. India's indiginous missiles can barely hit a stationary target, let alone perform a ballistic missile intercept 40 km up.

This was obviously an Israeli/Boeing Arrow interceptor.

The only question is how long this charade will go on, lol.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 17:20
India's indiginous missiles can barely hit a stationary target

like? Trishul was too bukly and barak was extremely mobile that it why it was chosen.
Akash had a successful test fires.

highsea whynot wait for details?
As there are numerous records india working for long on it.

AESA modules


The National Conference on Range Technology (NACORT) - 2006 at the integrated test range (ITR) of Chandipur in Balasore, about 150 km from here, comes a day after India Monday successfully tested a new interceptor rocket - the first step in creating a defence system against incoming ballistic missiles.
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/india/a...ange_technology

'But we will not discuss anything about this interceptor,' ITR director and chairman of the organising committee A.K. Checker told IANS. 'However, if President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam (who inaugurates the conference) wants to speak on this, he may.'



Read this http://www.tno.nl/defensie_en_veiligheid/militair_optreden/operational_analysis/india_the_interactive_air/index.xml



CHENNAI: India acquired on Monday the capability of air defence against ballistic missiles when it launched two missiles, with one intercepting the other, from two ranges off the Orissa coast.

While the target missile took off from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur-on-sea, near Balasore, the interceptor took off a few seconds later from the Wheeler Island, about 70 km away. It intercepted the target mid-flight and destroyed it over the Bay of Bengal.

"A milestone"


M. Natarajan, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, told The Hindu over the phone from New Delhi: "With this, India has acquired the capability of air defence against the incoming ballistic missile threat. It is a significant milestone in the missile defence of the country."

He described the success of the mission as a "glow made when a thousand lamps are merged into one. That is what I feel."

"There was a lot of not only hardware but also software custom-built for this mission. They have been validated, and that is our greatest satisfaction. The credit should go to the whole team," Mr. Natarajan said.
The project director was Dr. V.K. Saraswat, Chief Controller, Missile and Strategic Systems, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

Trajectory monitored


The target missile was launched around 10.15 a.m. Its trajectory was continuously monitored, and the information stored in the Mission Control Centre. This information was transmitted to the Launch Control Centre for launching the interceptor, which took off some seconds later.

The target was a standard Prithvi-II missile, modified to simulate the trajectory of an enemy missile. A portion of the interceptor was similar to the Prithvi missile but its second stage was a totally new segment.

The interceptor had inertial navigation guidance system, used mid-course in the flight, and an active seeker-guidance system in its terminal phase to waylay the incoming missile.

Many technologies relevant to the interceptor were validated in the mission. A radar was used and the interceptor had a seeker guidance on board.

DRDO sources said the interception could take place at varying heights. "In this instance, the interception took place 50 km above the ground. It can be at any height, depending on the time of the launch because our aim is to destabilise the incoming missile."




Thanks Ramana,

Conversations with friends suggest that within current technology, the problems of detection, discrimination and trajectory calculation in a short time are hard problems. The actual time to launch will vary from system to system and probably vary a lot from test conditions to field conditions.

Friends also suggest that BMD has been talked about for a long time but technology milestones have been hard to meet with any level of reliability. Presently there is some technology development which has enabled some progress towards the stated goals of a BMD shield but reliability is low everywhere. Claimed effectiveness is not a match for actual effectiveness. I don't blame the suppliers, this is a hard problem.

To actually make a difference where it counts in solving the hard problems, the logical next step would be Divya II, the Angel's Ken, all seeing, all knowing, multispectral, multisource, with embedded analysis and the necessary discrimination tools. I feel the problem of trajectory calculation could be solved relatively quickly using a distributed approach.

Again I am not saying this is easy, but atleast we are not falling on the first step anymore.

All the so called Pandits can't hide the fact that world has just changed. We have tested an ABM ahead of the Chinese or the Pakistanis, and we have done that with far less funding. They have to catch up.

The balance in Asia is shifting slowly but perceptably.

Fools see the antics of Asians as mere frivolity of despots. The wise mind sees deeper things.

this is a guy told who has some contacts.
why not just wait and see? what it is.

dont underestimate the indians so much . :)

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 17:27
Why not just wait and see what our scientists can do with increased funding as economy grows?
Next year SLCM will be tested.
today only ISRO unvieled is making a huge solar telescope in himalayas.. and things like those.

This is the Vehicle most probably will be used to carry this http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/aug04/missile15.htm


Suspected Solid rocket used
Have a look at the booster
http://www.drdo.com/pub/techfocus/oct2001/propulsion.htm

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 17:29
...dont underestimate the indians so much . :)Joey, I don't have to underestimate anybody. I know what India's capabilities are. This just isn't there, no matter how hard people try to spin it.

This is a quid-pro-quo of the nuke deal. The Arrow is a MCTR Class 1 missile, so no one is going public about the exchange. Instead it is being sold as some "secret" missile developed by DRDO. A story only an Indian could believe.

I have worked on missiles. I know how long it takes to develop, the amount of testing involved, the steps that you have to take. It's an incremental process. No one comes out of the box and shoots down a missile on their first test, don't be an idiot.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 17:35
I'm not stupid.
This is not first test.........
Please check BR's page there were another test before as some claimed.

They just didnt wanted to go public with it incase it failed, so there have been quite a lot of things done before and this test is political.

Another thing if you see, They have been actively working on this thing from 1998.
The brahmos project helped very much to give experience in developement of seeker and things.
MOD reports said 444 million dollar was sanctioned for this research in 2003.

new solid motor was developed, all for fake to buy some american stuffs?
please....it can be arrow 2 can be indigenous, ofcourse there is some help in radar from israeli but i dont think missile is arrow 2, and one more thing why not just wait till pics come out.

kams
28 Nov 06,, 17:36
Read this http://www.tno.nl/defensie_en_veiligheid/militair_optreden/operational_analysis/india_the_interactive_air/index.xml

Joey,
You have posted the above link in numerous forums. There is an English version of the above, please go though it. This has nothing to do with Indian Air Defence. INDIA in the above link stands for Intercept Diagrams Model.

A neutral observer evaluates the capability of an organization by its track record. Unfortunately DRDO's track record in the field of Air Defence Missile has not been spectacular, hence some observers may be sceptical. Time will prove whether they are right or wrong.

The following article was posted on BR by Laks.

[QUOTE]India, Pakistan: Another Aspect to the Military Race
November 27, 2006 23 42 GMT

Summary

India unveiled the ongoing development of an indigenous anti-missile system Nov. 27, following the Nov. 24 announcement by Pakistan and China that the two nations will collaborate on an airborne early warning surveillance system. While the development of such a system puts India ahead in the race for military superiority, Islamabad's continued defense collaboration with Beijing serves as a reminder that Pakistan is still in the fight.

Analysis

India tested an indigenous anti-missile system along the coast of the eastern state of Orissa, on the Bay of Bengal, on Nov. 27, and made a public announcement about the atmospheric intercept system (AXO) later the same day. Little is known about the AXO program; the intercept was within the known scope of India's Russian-built SA-10 and SA-12 surface-to-air missiles and patently beyond the scope of either of India's domestic missile programs -- the Akash and the failed Trishul. Lessons learned from the Trishul -- and successful subsystems of the program -- could figure into the AXO's development.

Pakistan is at a fundamental strategic disadvantage to India. Not only has Islamabad been engaged in a game of catch-up since India detonated its first nuclear device in 1974, but the country lacks India's strategic depth. All three versions of India's short-range ballistic missile, the now two-decade-old Prithvi, could hit any target in Pakistan, and all three have been fielded in militarily significant numbers.

Pakistan, on the other hand, could probably only deploy fewer than 10 Ghauri missiles -- its most advanced medium-range ballistic missile -- against the Indian subcontinent. Only the Ghauri II could actually strike at all of India. Pakistan does field a nuclear arsenal, and its ability to deploy those weapons against India should not be understated. To help balance the military relationship on the subcontinent, Pakistan reinforces its defensive capabilities by supporting nonstate actors operating in the region, including Kashmiri militant groups, Bangladeshi Islamist militant groups and rebel movements in northeastern India. However, in terms of a nuclear exchange, Pakistan's comparatively narrow geography leaves it at a strategic disadvantage. Its weapons are functional, but less advanced and therefore probably less reliable than those of India.
Now India has further weakened Pakistan's position by unveiling the AXO anti-missile system, which is already in the test phase.

However, India historically has been quick to proclaim the success of its missile programs, even in the face of failure. India's Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) played up the July Agni III test, despite its failure. The unveiling of the AXO is symptomatic of the same tendency. For example, the DRDO made repeated use of the word "supersonic" as an adjective in its announcement about the AXO. This is like Airbus advertising a new "flying" jet; all anti-missile systems must be supersonic, or they would have trouble shooting down even turboprop aircraft.

Also, the Nov. 27 test was almost certainly highly orchestrated, much like early U.S. tests of the U.S. ground-based midcourse interceptor. The troubled U.S. program also serves as a reminder of the obstacles India has yet to overcome. Operational success of a layered missile shield is an enormously complex and expensive goal -- one the United States has yet to complete, even with investment now exceeding $100 billion. India is attempting to field a single missile design and has so far only demonstrated a comparatively basic but nonetheless noteworthy ability to put two missiles -- both of which are controlled by Indian scientists -- in the same chunk of three-dimensional space at the same time.
Thus, the DRDO's announcement of its new supersonic AXO is reminiscent of former U.S. President Ronald Reagan's Star Wars announcements. Years from maturity, and perhaps as much as a decade from meaningful operation, India's program nonetheless reminds the Pakistanis of what they are not doing. Plagued by the same game of catch-up that eventually bankrupted the former Soviet Union during the Cold War, Pakistan must now compete against India in yet another arena. Even a nascent Indian anti-missile system could be sufficient to challenge -- although not completely defend against -- Pakistan's numerically small medium-range arsenal.

However, Pakistan and China signed a memorandum of understanding Nov. 24 agreeing to cooperate on developing airborne early warning (AEW) surveillance systems. Pakistan and China have a long history of collaboration on matters of defense, most recently on the FC-1/JF-17 fighter aircraft, which will provide an important complement to Pakistan's F-16 fleet. The command-and-control that an AEW platform provides would be a great boon to Pakistan's ability to coordinate air superiority campaigns.

Developing Pakistan's ability to face India militarily is in China's interest. While China seeks collaboration with India in the economic realm, it maintains a strong defense relationship with Pakistan in order to keep New Delhi on its toes and prevent India from threatening Chinese interests in the region. Pakistan's upcoming $1 billion acquisition of a Saab/Ericsson AEW system also will be welcomed by the Chinese scientists working on an indigenous Chinese AEW and airborne warning and control system (AWACS) program; the United States has systematically attempted to block Chinese access to Western AEW/AWACS technology.

With its strong defense alignment with China and occasional but significant assistance from the United States, Pakistan is far from out of the game with India.

Comments?

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 17:44
KAMs i'm not saying this will go and start intercepting stuffs out of the box , check my post the DRDO guys told that guy that it has long way to go.
More tests are on cards and things like that.

India is attempting to field a single missile design and has so far only demonstrated a comparatively basic but nonetheless noteworthy ability to put two missiles -- both of which are controlled by Indian scientists -- in the same chunk of three-dimensional space at the same time

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 17:46
that bold thing is correct, by no means this is arrow 2 as high sea claims.
only time will tell.

within next decade if india tests hypersonic thing, someone will say oh nasa gave us x-41 or its hyfly.

its quite ODD when people says things like that, like babur is given my americans.
even if we reverse engineered green pine radar thats a quite good advancement.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 17:49
In orkut it has been confirmed by a guy who is working on Arjuns rocket that it will be tested next year.
and some days after the news came out agni 3 test early next year.

he only said many many research is going on.
unmanned vehicles, robotics, small surviellance aircrafts, etc etc.

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 17:50
...Comments?Spot on, Kams.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 17:54
highsea didnt get your sarcasm by spot on.

Arrow-2 length is 7m whereas AXO length is more than 10m or ~12m. And it is speculated to use Kinetic warhead(Hit to kill) whereas arrow-2 uses explosive warhead.

Highsea why dont you visit BR and see the pics of impact etc etc.

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 17:55
...even if we reverse engineered green pine radar thats a quite good advancement.You didn't reverse engineer Green Pine, Joey- you bought it. Arrow and Green Pine are part of the same system.

Joey, you don't know what the hell you are talking about, okay? The engagement parameters alone are enough to tell me what kind of missile it was.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 18:01
You didn't reverse engineer Green Pine, Joey- you bought it. Arrow and Green Pine are part of the same system.

Joey, you don't know what the hell you are talking about, okay? The engagement parameters alone are enough to tell me what kind of missile it was

Yes we bought it[2 of them] but i dont think it was used here.

Its much better no conflicts you have far more knowledge than me, but you dont work inside DRDO.you can easily tell me stfu or hell up but again i dont have to believe you based on your speculation just because you work in something not DRDO, again you have more reasons than me to not believe me cuz i'm not experienced as you are and i'm Indian i guess.

lets just wait and see what it really becomes afterall if not now after 5 years we will see the radar missile used etc etc with parametres.

If its Arrow 2 well and good if not well and good too.

Thing is the video it wasnt 40 kms above but much much lower, so the range might not be that high, the smoke trails was visible on the cloud from the ground.

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 18:02
...And it is speculated to use Kinetic warhead(Hit to kill) ...HAHAHAHA. Now you guys have developed HTK? Good grief, what's your next claim? Cold Fusion? A perpetual motion machine?

Lol. Get real.
Besides reversing decades of nuclear nonproliferation policy, the Bush Administration’s prospective deal to share civilian nuclear technology with India could also permanently damage missile nonproliferation policy. Under the reported terms of the deal, in exchange for placing its civilian nuclear facilities under international monitoring, India would obtain a free hand to purchase previously restricted conventional weapons, most notably Israel’s Arrow missile defense system, a partially U.S. funded program aided by infusions of U.S. technology.[4] India has expressed interest in Arrow but has been thwarted to date by the fact that the Arrow interceptor is a Category I missile capable of delivering a 500 kg payload to a range of 300 km. Consistent with the Missile Technology Control Regime’s (MTCR) Category I provisions, this has obliged the United States thus far to discourage Israel from selling the Arrow to India. Israel is an informal “adherent” to the MTCR’s guidelines and should practice restraint in transferring the Arrow, but both Israel and India have lobbied Washington hard to make an exception in regard to Arrow’s export to India.

http://www.nti.org/e_research/e3_67a.html
I got a hundred bucks says this was an Arrow interceptor. Wanna put your money where your mouth is? We'll send the money to a Mod, and when the truth comes out, he'll pay the loser.

kams
28 Nov 06,, 18:03
Joey,

Calm down. Don't get excited by adverse comments. Details regarding our ABM test are scrace at this time. We will know if its a Arrow 2 clone real soon when India starts making huge payments to Israel:) .

At the same time past non-performance can not be taken as a basis to draw conclusions on future performance in Scientific arena. (wow just about managed to reverse the Wall Street Lingo:biggrin: )

Oops, The article I posted before was from Stratfor

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 18:05
^^^lol.

Kams, just because I am trying to apply a little reason to the discussion doesn't mean I am making adverse comments. It's just not a believable claim, that's all. I am just the one who happened to point it out.

kams
28 Nov 06,, 18:09
^^^lol.

Kams, just because I am trying to apply a little reason to the discussion doesn't mean I am making adverse comments. It's just not a believable claim, that's all. I am just the one who happened to point it out.

Oh not at all Highsea. I was merely trying to clam down Joey. By adverse I meant its against what Joey believes thats all..bad choice of word on my part.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 18:13
highsea it has been openly told by MOD on its interest on Arrow 2.I dont understand why would we hide it if it is Arrow 2.

Again you dont work in DRDO.
Lets wait and see as kams said.

If the missile gets public then you can tell if it is arrow 2 or anything other right highsea?then lets just wait.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 18:16
you worked in LM isnt it? someone in br said.


You can't transfer the Arrow under the table. It costs too much. India is not like Israel, we don't import things from US and claim they are indigenous. It doesn't work like that.

Sending a system for test and validation that is possible but that was done years ago.

Radar was not used in this test. Like I said programmed intercept, you tell the missiles where to go and then make them meet in mid air.

This is a test to setup a performance baseline.

It was not the first of its kind. Remember there were a number of reports of Prithvi tests through out the year, tests of a system that everyone assumed that the GoI was not going to deploy.

ps. if he worked at LM ask him to ask his friends how the first AIM54 tests were conducted. That is what we have done.

n21
28 Nov 06,, 18:16
Arrow transfer was cancelled couple of years back due to American pressure on Israel.
How would it be possible that Israel again sells Arrow system to India and the US doesn't even blink a eye?
I dont believe Americans are so dumb that a ABM system,which contains huge American contibution is shipped right under it's nose.

About the Trishul failure.How do we confidently say that the numerous so called "Trishul" tests were for real?Isn't it possible that it was a smoke screen for some other missile test?

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 18:24
I got a hundred bucks says this was an Arrow interceptor. Wanna put your money where your mouth is? We'll send the money to a Mod, and when the truth comes out, he'll pay the loser.

lol 100 dollars is too much for me, How about 25$? its done deal then.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 18:26
That BR is guy is somewhere wrong there A Radar was used for sure, as per DRDO.

Akash is going to be a good thing, actually many things here are from akash.

I'm waiting for someone next to call the SLCM a american help too.
I never disagreed on help in radar and stuffs by israel but seeker and things were mostly experienced from Russia and this is definitely not Arrow 2.

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 18:29
you worked in LM isnt it? someone in br said.No. And I don't visit BR, so I don't think anyone there knows anything about me. If they claim to, they are lying.

How about 25$? its done deal thenLol, Joey, you gotta make it worth my while...;)

...How would it be possible that Israel again sells Arrow system to India and the US doesn't even blink a eye?
I dont believe Americans are so dumb that a ABM system,which contains huge American contibution is shipped right under it's nose.No one said it was shipped under anyone's nose. If you read what I already posted, you will see it was a quid-pro-quo on the nuke deal, and why it isn't being talked about publicly.

The US blocked Arrow to India 2 years ago and offered Patriot instead, which India refused. Bush has reversed the US policy wrt India, in case you haven't been paying attention.

The US has no problem with India (or most anyone else) having defensive systems, and even with Arrow, Boeing gets a large piece of the pie. It was the MTCR guidelines that were the sticking point wrt Arrow, and why we offered Patriot instead.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 18:32
another thing, me going for dinner i'll try if i can bring any one working in DRDO directly on Agni project.

if he says diff things hopefully now someone wont say things like this.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 18:35
nah.. make it 30$ then? lol
actually 30$ to me is more than a weekends party lol.
its like more than a dozen beer bottles.

Deal Done?

btw lemme ask tht guy whos working under Agni till make this deal on hold please ;)

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 18:48
...Deal Done?Tell ya what- I'll hedge a bit and say it was either Arrow or Patriot (assuming it was really a successful intercept, and not a phony claim like we've seen in the past).

And to show you my heart's in the right place, we'll make it $50. :tongue:

n21
28 Nov 06,, 18:49
The US blocked Arrow to India 2 years ago and offered Patriot instead, which India refused. Bush has reversed the US policy wrt India, in case you haven't been paying attention.

The US has no problem with India (or most anyone else) having defensive systems, and even with Arrow, Boeing gets a large piece of the pie. It was the MTCR guidelines that were the sticking point wrt Arrow, and why we offered Patriot instead.

MTCR modified overnight and there are no reports at all???
No informing the Congress? No informing the nations invovled in the treaty?Amazing

I thought it was a international treaty.I am as much do not want to believe it
as much as you believe that arrow was transfered.

Indian would definetely want to have the arrow system and if USA wants to modify the MTCR it would do it.Just like the nuclear treaty,however there would be some news on it.

By the way the nuclear treaty was passes fews days ago.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 18:53
I'm dead sure its nor arrow 2 or whatever, highsea what is the least altitude of arrow 2 interception?

here is what a journalist tells in BR


Humm had a brief chat with the 5th uncle of fourth nice first grandmother's...you get the drift (called many of these actually on a conference call) , so here is what is happening , please keep this transcript secret

No1 (DRDO Scientist - Mr Cryptic) said - Didn't you read the news, it was Prithvi. So two fired in the known direction and they Intercepted.
Me- But the news was cryptic, it said that it used parts of Prithvi, some speculate it is first stage of Prithvi
No2 (DRDO Scientist no 2, Mr. More forthcoming) - Oh well parts can we anything, if we used the name of Prithvi (and nothing else) we still used Prithvi didn't we, so we did not lie.
Mr. Jurnotutes No 1 - You are a lying bunch, you just yanked it out...
At this point I hear gasps, NO1 and NO2 look in horror and then relax, they were fully dressed and nothing was amiss.
Jurnotutes #1 - I tell you man, I do not believe in this test, I have seen the smoke but not the interceptor, I doubt it happened, it is yet to be confirmed, most probably the Prithvi got destroyed in mid flight and they are calling it an AMB intercept.
Well meaning but confused Desi - I tell you, it was Arrow, no one has seen the intercepting masala, doesn’t it look like arrow. Moreover since it was captured on camera, it has to be at lower altitude, cannot be that far, so it has to be arrow. (btw arrow intercepts at at least 50 km)
Jurnotutes#2 (Mr. I know my tanks) - Bah humbung, I have not yet spoken, This is but a great failure, wait for my next article, I just spoke to JJ, I will have an update.
Jurnototus# 3(Mr. TFTA paise ke liye kuch bhi karega)-- I tell you, these guys are light years away, who says only 10 or 20 years. I talked to my bhailog this side, err I mean the other side, they say they have a better system, you know how they always have taller and red tipped, I have seen all of it, they are more advanced I tell you. No one from my master’s country has done it so how these middle class Indians have done it, I tell you, they are light years away
No 1# - Mr TFTA light years is measure of length not time
Jurnototus# 3(Mr. TFTA paise ke liye kuch bhi karega)-- Oh shut up, you guys don’t know about length, your Prithvi is stubby and your agnis…less said the better
No2# - So are we done here then
Me- No no we are not, please tell me what is what. Please give us more detail
SELF Loathing Indian - Huh, what have you produced of late, this is fake. No tests, do you have pictures to prove it? If it happened, the masala was Arrow and the radar polish, the vehicle Czech. If anything it prooves how incompetent Prithvi is, it can be shot down
NO1 Scientist - Gentleman I will have to leave, I guess you all have already reached a conclusion, what is there more to tell.
Well meaning but confused desi protests - I am still confused?
NO1 - So what is new here, you need little faith here son and you will find the answer you seek.
No 1 leaves.
No2 indulges the crowd - Well we can’t show the photo, we cannot of course just to satisfy your curiosity tell you everything.
Jurnotutes 1,2,3 and SLIME sing in chorus - I told you it was fake
The call gets disconnected at this time. I am suppose to be at my day’s job. Everyone had the answers already, no amount of extra information was going to change there view. Some were skeptical due to genuine reasons, but then nothing could be done to satisfy their curiosity. Others had a living to earn, bank balances to look after, they were also not going to change their view on any evidence. If they dare tell the truth, they have to find a way to earn a honest living, something which even their baap dada had not done

Secret notes - Scientist 1 - The ABM has worked. It was the 5th test of interception. The individual system tests have been challenging. The seeker had to be mounted many times on Trishul and Akash. The target towing according to press release was done by Lakshya (we know better) Many ‘Prithvi’ testes had verified the design success of the first stage of the n stage masala. The radar has been a great fusion of many Indian and other technologies. We acquired the Green pine and Antey radars many years ago and we have fused that technology with many home grown ones. I am myself confused by many names that we gave them to hide this. We have been perfecting the interceptor radr for a long time. Every TSP no-dung have been successfully tracked. Rest of the details as agreed upon will not even be committed to paper.
Jai Hind!!

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 18:55
I'm dead sure its not arrow 2 now.it intercepted much much bellow 50 kms.


Secret notes - Scientist 1 - The ABM has worked. It was the 5th test of interception. The individual system tests have been challenging. The seeker had to be mounted many times on Trishul and Akash. The target towing according to press release was done by Lakshya (we know better) Many ‘Prithvi’ testes had verified the design success of the first stage of the n stage masala. The radar has been a great fusion of many Indian and other technologies. We acquired the Green pine and Antey radars many years ago and we have fused that technology with many home grown ones. I am myself confused by many names that we gave them to hide this. We have been perfecting the interceptor radr for a long time. Every TSP no-dung have been successfully tracked. Rest of the details as agreed upon will not even be committed to


HIGH SEA 50$ :( aight :( i'll pay in installment of two.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 18:57
Next stage since i have very high level contacts in IIT i'll try and ask some peoples who are literally involved in this and confirm.
i dont think someone can know more than having personal contacts..

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 19:10
THIS GETS CLEARER AND CLEARER.
It cannot be arrow 2 100000% sure.

We tested prithvi 2 more than 3 or 4 times[within previous 4 years or so] and i really dont think for a missile with range of 200 kms we need to test it soo soo many times, when it carries a nuke payload ans we already have Agni in service.

What makes us test it again and again when it was tested wayy back pergfectly in 1996?
just doesnt makes sense.

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 19:10
...I thought it was a international treaty.No, it's not. It's a set of voluntary guidelines that a country can follow or not, as they see fit. It does not carry the weight of a treaty.

The nuke deal is blatantly against the NPT, and the US is ignoring that- MTCR is much lower level.

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 19:20
...highsea what is the least altitude of arrow 2 interception?The published figure is 10-60 km.

here is what a journalist tells in BRJoey, that post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 19:21
Thanks to the journalist, cleared everything literally.
There is more than 99% evidence that this is home grown thing the one percent goes to picture which is not available.

I'll still confirm more and more by tomorrow going to IIT and meeting some persons if they are available.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 19:25
Joey, that post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek

wthell? i cannot believe how ignorant someone can be.
journalists in BR are highly related to the entire site, they have busted many journos like shiv arror etc etc and literally except some pakistan bashing BR is highly technical.

Atleast we dont go there by saying MKI can take on F15E in BVR like some other forums.

Prithvi 2 was tested successfully in 1996 and was indias first home grown.
missile
Why would it be tested soo many tims in before 4 years?
Why would be 400 million dollars be granted for this as RC1 project by MOD?
Why we we develope a special vehicle called AAD
Why would we develope a Solid stage rocket of pumping out 16 tonne thrust for 36 seconds which has similar DIa that of prithvi???
Why would these scientists lie?

all for "arrow 2" given and no news nothing .. all research for years and years are vain?
there have been successful akash interception too.

Now i'll confirm it from my source which will be 100% more correct than yours, and if you stilll dont believe sorry i'm really tied up infront of your technical ability and thats my only weakness.

ainspiron
28 Nov 06,, 19:49
Why would US help India when its marketing PAC-3 to India?

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 19:53
...Prithvi 2 was tested successfully in 1996 and was indias first home grown missile
Why would it be tested soo many tims in before 4 years?4 tests is a lot? Do you know how many tests Arrow and Patriot have had?

Why would be 400 million dollars be granted for this as RC1 project by MOD?The US pumped in well over a billion on Arrow, and it's not even ours, lol. And well over that on Patriot too.

Why we we develope a special vehicle called AADThe Armored Amphibious Dozer?

Why would we develope a Solid stage rocket of pumping out 16 tonne thrust for 36 seconds which has similar DIa that of prithvi???Solid fuel rockets are much quicker to get launched, that's why. Having your only operational ballistic missile liquid fueled is not a good thing. Also, the booster is supposed to ba part of the Privthi III, right?

all for "arrow 2" given and no news nothing .. all research for years and years are vain? Who says the research is in vain? You need to get over your desire for instant gratification. :tongue:

Now i'll confirm it from my source which will be 100% more correct than yours, and if you stilll dont believe sorry i'm really tied up infront of your technical ability and thats my only weakness.Have your source give you a nice picture of the missile and TEL too, lol.

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 19:54
Why would US help India when its marketing PAC-3 to India?We're pals now, haven't you heard? :rolleyes:

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 19:56
Why would US help India when its marketing PAC-3 to India?
There is no question of Help against nuke deal or whatever which is not even done, this is home grown with radar help from Israel.

There more than enough substance to give a mathematical probability and if you go by the chapter graph theory, to prove this is home grown rather than any arrow 2/pac 3.
by tomorrow or day after i'll be 200% confirmed about it.

but peoples wants hard proof so its better to simply wait and see.

ps: i'm really a unbiased guy and i have no intentions of making out things which seems not possible to me, its just like if someone says Sagarika will use home grown engines i'd have been suspicious as it will possibly use TRD-50 Turbofan.but the SLBM version will be home grown.

kams
28 Nov 06,, 20:02
HIGH SEA 50$ :( aight :( i'll pay in installment of two.

Joey, I can't believe you said that:mad: . You are so confident, where is the question you paying HIGHSEA? he will pay you:biggrin: .

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 20:08
We'll see about that! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Tronic
28 Nov 06,, 20:11
And exactly what the heck do you guys know about the test? i.e. what info has been released?

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 20:15
Check previous page Tronic about fanne's post in BR.
there is no exact info as your saying but its confirmed its home grown, and you know BR guys dont really bull around.

and research was underway from 1998 and remember in 2003 BJP govt aloocated 400m$ fund for this, it was known as RC1.

Akash will suceed as a mid layer defence, trishul was dropped for Barak which is compact and requires much less change to a ships hull.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 20:19
kams please check your PM.

kams
28 Nov 06,, 20:25
kams please check your PM.


Replied

kams
28 Nov 06,, 20:30
Highsea,

I did some diggling (ok googling;) ) for earlier news reports about development of an ABM. This is the one I found.


Scientists target on developing surface-to-air missile
Our Bureau


Hyderabad , April 14

THE Indian Defence scientists have set their target on developing a long range, surface-to-air missile (SAM) and a `force multiplier', missile that can unleash multiple warheads to destroy different strategic targets.

The SAM, with a range of nearly 100 km, will be ready for flight trials by the end of 2005. It would be in the class of the Patriot missile of the US (90 km) range, according to Dr V.K. Saraswat, Director of the Research Centre Imarat (RCI), one of the key Defence laboratories in the country's missile programme.

The building blocks for the `hit-to-kill', SAM, like the propulsion, control and guidance, homing devices, using radio frequency (RF) seekers, have already been developed at the Hyderabad-based RCI, in collaboration with the other Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), laboratories, he told newspersons.

A long range tracking radar, which can sight an aircraft at a distance of 400 km is under development. It can track about 200 aircraft simultaneously, giving a tactical advantage for the targeting and launching of SAMs, Dr Saraswat said.

Being developed for the Indian Air Force, the SAMs can be launched both from the ground as well as ship, he added.

Link to story (http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2005/04/15/stories/2005041501791300.htm)

This was published in 2005 and initial tests were to be carried out in later pert of 2005. The performance Characteristic of the above missile is very close to that of ABM.

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 21:00
...This was published in 2005 and initial tests were to be carried out in later pert of 2005. The performance Characteristic of the above missile is very close to that of ABM.That article also gives a development timeframe of 3 years. You think it was compressed into half that time, and the first test was a successful intercept? Or that there were previous tests that were kept secret? :rolleyes:

Do you really believe that?

Given India's demonstrated capabilities, I don't.

There is no question that India is working on missile defense- they have also been exploring an S-300/400 based system with Russia for the last couple years. The problem is integrating such a system with Green Pine, which India is already committed to. Neither Patriot nor Arrow have that problem, and India has been very actively seeking Arrow for some time.

And as I pointed out earlier (which everyone chooses to ignore)- it was reported in the Washington Post that Arrow was approved for India as part of the nuke deal. IOW, it was an Indian condition back in July 2005.

Now look at the time frame- a little over a year has passed, and within a month after the nuke deal was passed in Congress (except for minor details), we have a successful intercept by a previously "secret" Indian missile, that is reported to be exactly within the Arrows engagement envelope.

You ask me to believe that India developed a missile interceptor in 18 months that has the range and intercept capabilities of the Arrow (which Israel can't even produce on their own). And we began work on the Arrow in the late '80's.

Occam's razor.

Like I said before- pretend I'm from Missouri. Show me something I can believe in, and I'll listen. Developing a missile defense system takes at least 10 years. No one has done it in less, and I'm talking about countries that have a hell of a lot more experience in missile development than India. Show me the incremental tests. Show me the missile. Show me the TEL. Show me the radar.

Remember, this was just a test. I'm not saying that India has inked any deals with Israel. I am only saying that the only logical conclusion is that this was a demonstration of the Arrow's (or Patriot's) capabilities to India, so that it can be evaluated first hand. India provided the target and the test site, etc.

I will also restate what I said earlier- this all assumes that the story is not just a blatant fabrication (which is also quite possible, though unlikely imo).

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 21:14
IMHO IT STARTED IN 1998.
FURTHER FUNDS WERE GIVEN IN 2003 AROUND 400 MILLION DOLLARS.
ISRAELI HELP WAS THERE IN RADAR.

There is zero plans of developing missile defence with russia with any s300/s400.

if you dont believe that its your call, and its nothing just we being indian thats why your finding it hard to believe.

as the scientist said seeker was tested more than 10 times in trishul and akash, akash has undergone around 7 or 8 tests i think.

this is todays report, and India is developing a long range radar, its just a short version of it.
We have long way to go BUT THIS cannot be Arrow 2.

just a news some days back,



India seeks Israeli help for surveillance system

Israeli expertise being sought for completion of system set to give India capability to detect targets in space

IEICI Published: 11.28.06, 20:45

Hit by heavy time over-runs and technical hitches in the production of a key surveillance system designed to give early warning on incoming missiles, India has sought Israeli expertise.


Launched three years ago, Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) surveillance project christened 'Divya Drishti' was to
become operational this year, but is running heavily behind schedule and now Israeli expertise is being sought for its completion.

Billed to cost Rs 570 crores, the ground-based over- horizon surveillance system will give the country capability to detect targets in space and close to ground in two angles almost 800 kilometers (about 500 miles) away and in another angle almost 450 kilometers (280 miles) away.

Elbit system of Israel has now joined forces with the DRDO's Hyderabad-based Defense Electronics Research Laboratory (DRDL), Electronic Corporation of India and Tata Power Company Limited to develop the futuristic system.

Another Israeli firm IAI has also been made a co-collaborator in the DRDO's revived prestigious project to develop an indigenous mini airborne early warning and control system.

IAI Elta system is supplying ground based and airborne active phased array radars for the system aimed at undertaking detection of ballistic and cruise missiles.

Reprinted by permission of Israel Export and International Cooperation Institute

There is no doubt a smaller version of this radar has been tested.

Akash has already completed successful testings, its in website akashsam.com?

someone please post the ISSS papers,

4-5 prithvi testings
Rajendra 1,2,3 radars.
solid boosters
diagram of radar seekers
etc etc etc................

now seriously, journalists unofficial interviews, my personal sources whos in DRDO (will confirm some days later) etc etc if they says its a new ABM and suddenly one says "i find it hard to believe indians can do this etc etc" oh well...

but the project started wayy wayy back,

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 21:25
http://armyreco.ifrance.com/asie/inde/exhibition/defexpo_2004_india/defexpo_2004_pictures_gallery_india.htm

Look for Missile Vehicle which co-relates with the on from DRDO site.

and someone recommended me to read "wings of fire" its apj abdul kalams autobiography.
when projects as these started are kinda mentioned there, and things as such.

Archer
28 Nov 06,, 21:26
I tend to agree. India's indiginous missiles can barely hit a stationary target, let alone perform a ballistic missile intercept 40 km up.

This was obviously an Israeli/Boeing Arrow interceptor.

The only question is how long this charade will go on, lol.

You are mistaken this time, and badly at that. India got no Arrows from Israel or the associated Citron Tree FCS. It did get two GreenPines, as interim radars while it develops its own long range Radar for an ABM.

Archer
28 Nov 06,, 21:27
Sounds like another scam from DRDO.

Dont be stupid.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 21:29
And it is still developing the radars range i.e it is trying for a more integrated out of the box solution of combination of various radars to increase range.

The radar i think which was tested this time is not like a range of 500 kms or so but a low ranged one.

hell even green pine s not based in orissa, i can confirm where is green pine radar in which DRDO's lab but have to find out.

Archer
28 Nov 06,, 21:33
You have posted the above link in numerous forums. There is an English version of the above, please go though it. This has nothing to do with Indian Air Defence. INDIA in the above link stands for Intercept Diagrams Model.

A neutral observer evaluates the capability of an organization by its track record. Unfortunately DRDO's track record in the field of Air Defence Missile has not been spectacular, hence some observers may be sceptical. Time will prove whether they are right or wrong.

The following article was posted on BR by Laks.



Comments?


DRDOs track record in AD missiles has not been spectacular or the like, because its best teams have all been working on the strategic missiles as part of the IGMDP, and the tactical missile programs have been stepchildren at best. The Strategic missile programs have delivered on all counts, with multiple variants of the Prithvi and Agni developed.

If you look at the current program, its being headed by the Prithvi project director, VK Saraswat.

All the hoop-la apart, this is basically an Indian system similar to the S-300 V, intended to provide a cheaper version of an ATBM system for mass deployment, as compared to getting ripped off by the Russians, Israelis or for that matter the Americans. The average per unit costs of imported ATBM systems are so high, that India cannot afford them in the numbers it wishes for.

The euphoria is because the first test was flawless, which is a big deal and could have easily gone the other way. This saves vital money and time, as the DRDO does not have to sit and pick holes in post flight analysis wondering what widget failed.

Lastly, India already possesses the skills necessary for fielding a S-300 variant system, albeit with some level of foreign assistance to speed things up. The propulsion aspect has already been demonstrated via a range of missiles in the IGMDP (also look at ArunS's remarks- somewhat cryptic but still, in the thread you linked to). The other necessary equipment are seekers and SINS for midcourse correction, latter is available, the former could be developed via the Astra or a separate program. Then you need TELs, MCC, a radar, datalinks, etc- all these are possible, with select foreign involvement.

The real issue is of funding, and cost- whether India will persist in this, if cheaper alternatives (the price gouging that is common when a local system appears, and threatens to wipe out a market) or alternatives are offered.

Fact is nobody will provide TOT for such a system, so some level of local development is essential.

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 21:36
...There is zero plans of developing missile defence with russia with any s300/s400.Please direct me to the post where I said there were plans in place.

I said they were EXPLORING the possibility, and it's been going on for SEVERAL YEARS.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/1290
http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/reports/usmslsa.htm
http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=51996
http://www.tno.nl/defensie_en_veiligheid/militair_optreden/operational_analysis/joint_extended_air_defenc/latest_news/RUSSIA02022006S300.pdf

etc, etc...

I would appreciate it if you wouldn't re-interpret my words. I speak literally, and expect to be taken that way.

Archer
28 Nov 06,, 21:36
And it is still developing the radars range i.e it is trying for a more integrated out of the box solution of combination of various radars to increase range.

The radar i think which was tested this time is not like a range of 500 kms or so but a low ranged one.

I dont know what you mean by an out of the box solution or the like. India imported two Greenpines (the Arrow was denied at the time), and is also developing its own long range radar. A lot of the stuff developed for the Akash program can be reused here.


hell even green pine s not based in orissa, i can confirm where is green pine radar in which DRDO's lab but have to find out.

Even if you do find out, perhaps it would be best for everyone if you didnt talk about it on an open forum.

Tronic
28 Nov 06,, 21:40
Yes it was a homegrown missile; it wasn't an Arrow... India doesn't have any Arrows... Here's something from DRDO scientists (from the other article I posted)


"It is completely an indigenous missile," DRDO officials said when asked if any foreign help had been sought in it's development.

"The missile has high manoeuvrability, terminal homing with radar seekers and can operate independent of ground radar help," they said adding the missile could be co-related to ground and air based radars.


DRDO officials did not say whether some of the systems of the Trishul missile had been incorporated into the new yet experimental interceptor missile, but added "the new system has no commonality with the Akash surface-to-air missiles".
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=27430

So that is from the scientists themselves; this is defenitely not any Arrow or any foriegn missile, its a completely indegenious missile. From my previous readings, it shares some components with the Prithvis but the second stage is entirely new.

Tronic
28 Nov 06,, 21:43
Please direct me to the post where I said there were plans in place.

I said they were EXPLORING the possibility, and it's been going on for SEVERAL YEARS.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports/1290
http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/reports/usmslsa.htm
http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=51996
http://www.tno.nl/defensie_en_veiligheid/militair_optreden/operational_analysis/joint_extended_air_defenc/latest_news/RUSSIA02022006S300.pdf

etc, etc...

I would appreciate it if you wouldn't re-interpret my words. I speak literally, and expect to be taken that way.
Yes, a missile defense with the Russians? Possibly... but it is so haywire because India is also exploring the possibility of the American Patriot-III missile Defenses. So, I don't know, having 3 different missile defense systems.... maybe they were exploring those for back-up...

highsea
28 Nov 06,, 21:43
You are mistaken this time, and badly at that. India got no Arrows from Israel or the associated Citron Tree FCS. It did get two GreenPines, as interim radars while it develops its own long range Radar for an ABM.I never said India has acquired Arrow. Just that this was likely an Arrow test, based on the parameters of the intercept. We'll see.

At least you claim it was an S-300. A little more believable than the Privthi BS, and I grant you the possibility. As I already noted, India and Russia have been talking about S-300 variants for missile defense for some time.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 21:43
Please direct me to the post where I said there were plans in place.

I said they were EXPLORING the possibility, and it's been going on for SEVERAL YEARS.

Agreed, we were exploring possibility but feasibility and things like that didnt quite match.

Plus russians are in no hurry to develope a ABM as they knows its useless against their opponent without deployment of heavy space based laser.

or deployment of such things whole around US which is IMPOSSIBLE for russia now diplomatically and financially.

Israel here have beter access to western electronics and radar help from them was expected, but the missile developement is going on for atleast 7 to 8 years.

there is literally no reason to test prithvi around 4 to 5 times inspite of completely successful test "s" and final being in 1996.



etc, etc...

I would appreciate it if you wouldn't re-interpret my words.

Sorry, and your welcome.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 21:46
Lol S300?
There are diff vehicles,
It might study them etc etc but its by no means a colaboration.

even the top secret programmes like SSN/SLCM are in news of colaboration.

the solid booster rocket differs from S300's DIA isnt it? but it is same as prithvis.
what is S300's DIA?

DRDO guys acknowledged themselves its Modified Prithvi with Second stage added.

there is literally no reason to test prithvi around 4 to 5 times inspite of completely successful test "s" and final being in 1996.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 21:54
All the hoop-la apart, this is basically an Indian version of the S-300 V, intended to provide a cheaper version of an ATBM system for massdeployment, as compared to getting ripped off by the Russians, Israelis or for that matter the Americans. The average per unit costs of imported ATBM systems are so high, that India cannot afford them in the numbers it wishes for.

Yups but this thing is possibly much better than that, look at the range and capability to intercept BM.obviously the speed is more thasn BM.
There is no colaboration with the russians on this, that is for sure.

Another thing, dont forget "wings of fire" this project started loong loong ago and was personally handed by sir Kalam to his most trusted guy the same on who developed the prithvi.

Remember divya risti is not deployed yet and it has ranges around 800 kms so a clever deployment can cover entire pakistan.

lots of thins in this are used from akash/trishul for sure.plus the solid stage developed in 2002? has 1 tonne of thrust for 36 seconds or something like that, have to check.

It has been said a special datalink dedicated sats etc etc.. something is going for sure.
with ISRO spending millions just to recover the SAT pasrts of the Sea and thins like that.

India might deploy a network type system and that is why thet dutch scientist was talking in range technology in the conference of 3 days about range deployment and tech.
a lots of hoop-la happening.

Archer
28 Nov 06,, 21:57
Lol S300?
There are diff vehicles,
It might study them etc etc but its by no means a colaboration.

even the top secret programmes like SSN/SLCM are in news of colaboration.

the solid booster rocket differs from S300's DIA isnt it? but it is same as prithvis.
what is S300's DIA?

DRDO guys acknowledged themselves its Modified Prithvi with Second stage added.

there is literally no reason to test prithvi around 4 to 5 times inspite of completely successful test "s" and final being in 1996.


Chill dude, I didnt say it was a S-300. I said similar to, and you are on the right track there. Look up the Antey-2500 specs, or for that matter even the V's- and developing a V level system is quite creditable enough for India, as it tries to get to a 2500 type one.

I am more interested in the technology that will be developed via the program, that means long range radars, MCCs, radar netting and C3I software etc, which will all be used by the AF/India if past record is anything to go by.

Yes, its an AXO based on the Prithvi, or the Prithvi name is being used to cover up for the actual missile. Eitherways, this will run the "import test"- which is what will significantly impact media coverage of the system. Expect all the papers to rubbish it as the money flows.

I was reading Tehelkas original sting on the MOD yesterday, and boy- is it revealing! Almost everyone seems to be on the take when it comes to buying imports and taking a cut off.

But unlike the Saudis we dont create a fuss when found out, we just blacklist the supplier and move onto the next one.:tongue:

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 22:04
Eitherways, this will run the "import test"- which is what will significantly impact media coverage of the system. Expect all the papers to rubbish it as the money flows.

You mean we wont deploy it and will go for foreign stuffs? :O
if that happens bye bye world, i'll literally shoot every ****in media bosses "joking".

TATA SED is colaborating with Israel and the whole thing will be developed here the software system etc etc i mean the C3 one..


Elbit system of Israel has now joined forces with the DRDO's Hyderabad-based Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DRDL), Electronic Corporation of India and Tata Power Company Limited to develop the futuristic system.

expect a lot of EW's coming etc etc.

Archer
28 Nov 06,, 22:12
I never said India has acquired Arrow. Just that this was likely an Arrow test, based on the parameters of the intercept. We'll see.

India cannot test an Arrow, because we never purchased or leased it. The Arrow, as you know comes with a hoop-la of supporting equipment, the cost of which would be staggering, and none of which India has acquired, bar the GreenPine.


At least you claim it was an S-300. A little more believable than the Privthi BS, and I grant you the possibility. As I already noted, India and Russia have been talking about S-300 variants for missile defense for some time.

You misunderstand my comments- it has nothing to do with a S-300 being tested, its more of a S-300 style system being developed. Albeit for India's more immediate need to have a cost effective ATBM system. The reason why it is being called the PADE (Prithvi Air Defence Exercise) is partly because the target missile was a Prithvi, and partly because its Project director is a Prithvi hand. The following deserves to be taken seriously, because the gent who typed it is a professional with the background to analyse and report on the same.


Here is my assessment of the situation:

1. The interceptor being called as Prithvi is a cover for a similar sized ABM missile. I would call this ABM by the name 'Baan' (Sanskrit for arrow)
2. Baan ABM that has been reportedly tested earlier against aerial targets and this is the first test against real BM.
3. Some subtle hint and some other open source info makes me believe that this ABM is 0.65 meter diameter and its booster weighting ~2200Kg.
4. This first version may not have a second stage, thus is suitable for 200-300Km range Short range BM. The same missile can also provide protection against 800Km Ghauri but for a smaller protection (defended) bubble.
5. This first Baan test against Prithvi is to prove out the interceptor (seeker and control system), the long range precision radar and the overall automated ABM system.
6. They will take the next step to add a second stage (fier composite; ~ 400 -500Kg) to make it a MRBM interceptor suitable for 800-1500Km missiles.
7. This would require two types of radars. Undoubtly Rajendra and/or its derivative

Lastly, India has been working on this project for several years now. It can be considered the follow on project of the Prithvi project group at RCI. The GreenPines will comprise an integral part of this, future radars will be locally made ones. The stated aim is to develop a Missile system, superior to the S-300PMU series and Patriot-2, for deployment asap (hence, the emphasis on ready made systems for the initial tranche- such as the GreenPine). Which is also why I raised the issue of the newer variants of the S-300 series. All in all, this is a program to do what the IGMDP did for India, give it capability in an area which other countries cannot (either for political reasons) or cost (imported ABM rounds are not cheap).

If the US makes the Arrow-2 available, it could be tied to this system as well.

This is basically to protect Indian metros from Pak/ Chinese missiles.

Archer
28 Nov 06,, 22:13
You mean we wont deploy it and will go for foreign stuffs? :O
if that happens bye bye world, i'll literally shoot every ****in media bosses "joking".

TATA SED is colaborating with Israel and the whole thing will be developed here the software system etc etc i mean the C3 one..

expect a lot of EW's coming etc etc.

The Divyadrishti project is separate from this and does not need to be tied up into the ATBM discussion.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 22:20
Lastly, India has been working on this project for several years now. It can be considered the follow on project of the Prithvi project group at RCI. The GreenPines will comprise an integral part of this, future radars will be locally made ones. The stated aim is to develop a Missile system, superior to the S-300PMU series and Patriot-2, for deployment asap (hence, the emphasis on ready made systems for the initial tranche- such as the GreenPine). Which is also why I raised the issue of the newer variants of the S-300 series. All in all, this is a program to do what the IGMDP did for India, give it capability in an area which other countries cannot (either for political reasons) or cost (imported ABM rounds are not cheap).

If the US makes the Arrow-2 available, it could be tied to this system as well.

This is basically to protect Indian metros from Pak/ Chinese missiles

Actually it performed a lot better than your saying here [pac-2/s-300PMU] ;)
just look at the interception, i'm waiting for next test against AGNI.

And noone will tell RCS of the developed Radar, who knows its better than S400's Radar?..with israeli inputs close studyin of green pine anything is possible.

I dont think Arrow 2 will be purchased seperately anymore, even if it is mad available, as MOd made it clear missile defence have to be home grown.

btw, can you tell me what is divya dristi project for?

Tronic
28 Nov 06,, 22:28
Yes, it's a new missile, its not an Arrow or S-300; thats just pure baseless BS...

Heres more on the test:


The target missile was launched around 10.15 a.m. Its trajectory was continuously monitored, and the information stored in the Mission Control Centre. This information was transmitted to the Launch Control Centre for launching the interceptor, which took off some seconds later.

The target was a standard Prithvi-II missile, modified to simulate the trajectory of an enemy missile. A portion of the interceptor was similar to the Prithvi missile but its second stage was a totally new segment.

The interceptor had inertial navigation guidance system, used mid-course in the flight, and an active seeker-guidance system in its terminal phase to waylay the incoming missile. Many technologies relevant to the interceptor were validated in the mission. A radar was used and the interceptor had a seeker guidance on board.
http://www.hindu.com/2006/11/28/stories/2006112812200100.htm

Archer
28 Nov 06,, 22:28
http://www.hindu.com/2006/11/28/stories/2006112812200100.htm

TS Sub. is an old hand and with access to ISRO/DRDO,


Prithvi interceptor missile tested successfully

T.S. Subramanian


India has acquired air defence capability: M. Natarajan
Target was a modified standard Prithvi-II missile

CHENNAI: India acquired on Monday the capability of air defence against ballistic missiles when it launched two missiles, with one intercepting the other, from two ranges off the Orissa coast.

While the target missile took off from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur-on-sea, near Balasore, the interceptor took off a few seconds later from the Wheeler Island, about 70 km away. It intercepted the target mid-flight and destroyed it over the Bay of Bengal.

"A milestone"


M. Natarajan, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, told The Hindu over the phone from New Delhi: "With this, India has acquired the capability of air defence against the incoming ballistic missile threat. It is a significant milestone in the missile defence of the country."

He described the success of the mission as a "glow made when a thousand lamps are merged into one. That is what I feel."

"There was a lot of not only hardware but also software custom-built for this mission. They have been validated, and that is our greatest satisfaction. The credit should go to the whole team," Mr. Natarajan said.

The project director was Dr. V.K. Saraswat, Chief Controller, Missile and Strategic Systems, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

Trajectory monitored


The target missile was launched around 10.15 a.m. Its trajectory was continuously monitored, and the information stored in the Mission Control Centre. This information was transmitted to the Launch Control Centre for launching the interceptor, which took off some seconds later.

The target was a standard Prithvi-II missile, modified to simulate the trajectory of an enemy missile. A portion of the interceptor was similar to the Prithvi missile but its second stage was a totally new segment.

The interceptor had inertial navigation guidance system, used mid-course in the flight, and an active seeker-guidance system in its terminal phase to waylay the incoming missile.

Many technologies relevant to the interceptor were validated in the mission. A radar was used and the interceptor had a seeker guidance on board.

DRDO sources said the interception could take place at varying heights. "In this instance, the interception took place 50 km above the ground. It can be at any height, depending on the time of the launch because our aim is to destabilise the incoming missile."


Ok, Natrajans comments may be optimistic, but gven the stupid slagging his org. has had to endure, on all sorts of specious grounds- his feelings are well nigh understandable.

But that apart- this report, indicates that the trial undertaken, had a fairly detailed setup, with a working mission planning, system cued by radar, with a guided interceptor with Onboard seeker and midcourse guidance.

Considering all of this worked (and I have mentioned previously, about India penny pinching, as it strives to extract the max out of a single test- with attendant risks- makes failure analysis a PITA, if it occurs) the euphoria is understandable.

Of course, it will require several more tests- and the like, but a successful first test, on a project of this complexity, certainly gives them some slack to feel on cloud 9.

Thats about it, its all about the context, and I'd suggest Indian posters also keep it in mind.

If the Defense news report is correct, 9 more tests are required, at the very minimum- before the program is completed.

Archer
28 Nov 06,, 22:34
Actually it performed a lot better than your saying here [pac-2/s-300PMU] ;)
just look at the interception, i'm waiting for next test against AGNI.

Anything wrong in being conservative?


And noone will tell RCS of the developed Radar, who knows its better than S400's Radar?..with israeli inputs close studyin of green pine anything is possible.

A radars RCS is irrelevant, targets RCS is relevant. I daresay, India's radar will not be GreenPine based but its own one developed on the basis of this:

http://www.drdo.com/pub/techfocus/june2001/moduletech.htm


I dont think Arrow 2 will be purchased seperately anymore, even if it is mad available, as MOd made it clear missile defence have to be home grown.

Never rule out kickbacks. Besides, if someone offers a better system with access to source codes TOT, who knows. The key thing is that India needs a working ATBM screen, come what may.


btw, can you tell me what is divya dristi project for?

Mission profile analysis of aircraft using intercepted comm signals, based on triangulation of signals. Somewhat similar to the VERA type systems. Most important part is the software, which is being developed locally.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 22:35
have a look at these smaller things..


A real-time Image Processing System is used for scene matching
techniques for improving the terminal accuracy of long-range missiles featuring TMS 320C80-based hardware platform. The system puts into action the correlation and model-based image matching algorithms in real-time and I/O communication using 1553 bus interface.

http://www.teluguportal.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=23139
Kalam seeks upgradation of range in ITR based missile test place.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 22:37
Never rule out kickbacks. Besides, if someone offers a better system with access to source codes TOT, who knows. The key thing is that India needs a working ATBM screen, come what may

Man that would be the saddest day, we are working on this for long shouldnt be dropped by any cost.I dont think there will be kickbacks, CBI is there hopefully.

joey2
28 Nov 06,, 22:38
Anything wrong in being conservative?

nah nah sorry boss :P shows age diff plays a role.

Archer
28 Nov 06,, 22:40
nah nah sorry boss :P shows age diff plays a role.

:)

I'd trade places with you anyday.

Grrrrr!

Archer
28 Nov 06,, 22:43
Man that would be the saddest day, we are working on this for long shouldnt be dropped by any cost.I dont think there will be kickbacks, CBI is there hopefully.

Google up the Tehelka thingy, its frightening and hilarious at the same time.

Everyone is ready to take a cut. There are umpteen people in the procurement, and everyone has to be bribed.

But the one saving grace- "end user has to like the equipment" or "agree to it".

Bofors scam 101- IA short lists three or was it five howitzers, and the Bofors was third on the list.

LOL.

But it proved its worth in the Kargil war.

The Russians often escape, because procurement from them is "single vendor".

Archer
28 Nov 06,, 22:45
have a look at these smaller things..

http://www.teluguportal.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=23139
Kalam seeks upgradation of range in ITR based missile test place.

Kalam seems to be talking of the Rajendra/ Akash, 4 targets from multiple directions.

They should make a range in the THAR, considering how many people they evacuate each time a test occurs.

Tronic
28 Nov 06,, 22:54
Kalam seems to be talking of the Rajendra/ Akash, 4 targets from multiple directions.

They should make a range in the THAR, considering how many people they evacuate each time a test occurs.
A test range in the Thar??? :eek: lol, imagine the whines that will be coming from across...

kams
29 Nov 06,, 01:38
[QUOTE]That article also gives a development timeframe of 3 years. You think it was compressed into half that time, and the first test was a successful intercept?

I think you misread the news. The 3 year time frame was for a 'Force Multiplier' missile with Multiple Precision Guided Munitions, not for SAM.


On the force multiplier, Dr Saraswat said these missiles with range of 200-250 km in the Prithvi class, would be equipped with precision guided munitions (PGMs), which would have the capability to seek and destroy multiple targets.

Once developed in the next three years, they will improve the fire power of the Indian Defence forces at a highly economical costs, since 4-5 PGMs, can be launched from the Unitary (single) Prithvi class missile, he said.

The report says that SAM will be ready for testing by end of 2005. It does not say since when the missile is being developed.


THE Indian Defence scientists have set their target on developing a long range, surface-to-air missile (SAM) and a `force multiplier', missile that can unleash multiple warheads to destroy different strategic targets.

The SAM, with a range of nearly 100 km, will be ready for flight trials by the end of 2005. It would be in the class of the Patriot missile of the US (90 km) range, according to Dr V.K. Saraswat, Director of the Research Centre Imarat (RCI), one of the key Defence laboratories in the country's missile programme.

The building blocks for the `hit-to-kill', SAM, like the propulsion, control and guidance, homing devices, using radio frequency (RF) seekers, have already been developed at the Hyderabad-based RCI, in collaboration with the other Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), laboratories, he told newspersons.

Infact the first new report about program for development of Ballistic missiles appeared in 2003.

Plans for missile interceptors unveiled (http://www.hinduonnet.com/2003/02/09/stories/2003020907340300.htm)


V.K. Saraswat, Director, RCI, DRDO, said missile defence would be given impetus: programmes included developing missile interceptors. Variants of the `Agni' I and II, and those of `Prithvi' were now at the production stage. `Nag', an anti-tank missile would go into production next year, and work was on to adapt `Astra', an air-to-air missile, to the LCA, he added.





Or that there were previous tests that were kept secret? :rolleyes:

Do you really believe that?

In 2006 there were numerous missile tests, Prithvi was tested twice (excluding last one), Aakash 3 times or so. Any or all of these tests may be related to ABM, just labelled as user trials to mislead the media. In some news reports, DRDO has clarified that this was not the first trial. It will be unusual to carry out an interception in your first trial.



Given India's demonstrated capabilities, I don't.

I don't understand what exactly you are saying. If you mean India can not keep the tests a secret, recollect what happend in 98, when CNN informed your guys that India has conducted Nuke test.

If you mean India doesn't have the capability/technology to develop this kind of Missile, well wait and watch.


There is no question that India is working on missile defense- they have also been exploring an S-300/400 based system with Russia for the last couple years. The problem is integrating such a system with Green Pine, which India is already committed to. Neither Patriot nor Arrow have that problem, and India has been very actively seeking Arrow for some time.

True, India is seeking Arrow 2 for some time and US was denying it. Now US may have approved it, but DRDO was also developing it in the mean time.




You ask me to believe that India developed a missile interceptor in 18 months that has the range and intercept capabilities of the Arrow (which Israel can't even produce on their own). And we began work on the Arrow in the late '80's.

LOL No India did not develop it in 18 months, earliest news report I could dig out dates to 2003.



Like I said before- pretend I'm from Missouri. Show me something I can believe in, and I'll listen. Developing a missile defense system takes at least 10 years. No one has done it in less, and I'm talking about countries that have a hell of a lot more experience in missile development than India. Show me the incremental tests. Show me the missile. Show me the TEL. Show me the radar.

No one has claimed that India has a fieldable working ABM. This is one of the tests in a controlled enviornment.


Remember, this was just a test. I'm not saying that India has inked any deals with Israel. I am only saying that the only logical conclusion is that this was a demonstration of the Arrow's (or Patriot's) capabilities to India, so that it can be evaluated first hand. India provided the target and the test site, etc.

I will also restate what I said earlier- this all assumes that the story is not just a blatant fabrication (which is also quite possible, though unlikely imo)

Remember India is a democracy. If they lie so balatantly, later they will have to answer the parliament when payments to Israel (for eventual purchase of Arrow 2 as in your version we don't have a indigenous system) come to light. We have a CAG whose audit reports are in public domain.

highsea
29 Nov 06,, 02:18
...The report says that SAM will be ready for testing by end of 2005. It does not say since when the missile is being developed.

Infact the first new report about program for development of Ballistic missiles appeared in 2003.Look, India has struggled for 20 years to develop short and medium range SAMs in Trishul and Akash (which is basically an SA-6 airframe). Trishul was shelved because of guidance problems, and Akash is still undergoing development.

And we are supposed to believe that in 3 years you have developed exo-atmospheric missile interceptors when neither of these comparatively simple systems are fielded after 2 decades.

Show me some pictures. The missile, the TEL, and the radar, please.

kams
29 Nov 06,, 03:04
Look, India has struggled for 20 years to develop short and medium range SAMs in Trishul and Akash (which is basically an SA-6 airframe). Trishul was shelved because of guidance problems, and Akash is still undergoing development.

And we are supposed to believe that in 3 years you have developed exo-atmospheric missile interceptors when neither of these comparatively simple systems are fielded after 2 decades.

As I said earlier based on the track record, many are sceptical.


Show me some pictures. The missile, the TEL, and the radar, please.

As soon as any of the above are released, you will be first one to know:biggrin: .

Samudra
29 Nov 06,, 04:09
This was obviously an Israeli/Boeing Arrow interceptor.

The only question is how long this charade will go on, lol.

Highsea,

Dr.Von Braun was right after all.

Americans (and the rest of the world) cant possibly accept anything built outside and have to discredit it outright with such eagerness - like in this case where you *have* to spin imaginary yarns about DRDO and finally label the new missile imported even *before* we could release our specs or even a picture.

The NIH - not invented here syndrome.


We're pals now, haven't you heard?

You think anybody in the Indian establishment is foolish enough to make the US a 'pal' of ours ? You'd make good partners but never good friends.

Tronic
29 Nov 06,, 05:02
Highsea,

Dr.Von Braun was right after all.

Americans (and the rest of the world) cant possibly accept anything built outside and have to discredit it outright with such eagerness - like in this case where you *have* to spin imaginary yarns about DRDO and finally label the new missile imported even *before* we could release our specs or even a picture.

The NIH - not invented here syndrome.
lol... yes, I was observing the exact same thing, it is funny how he bluntly has called all of India's scientists and officials as liers....


You think anybody in the Indian establishment is foolish enough to make the US a 'pal' of ours ? You'd make good partners but never good friends.

ouch... I would think rather that the US would make a good friend also as long as we don't puppetize ourselves... like for example; Israel a good friend of USA or Israel a puppet of the US??? Well, they're a good friend in the sense that US provides Israel with tons of aid and shares close relations but it becomes a puppet in a sense that Israel gets restricted with what the US wants, like when Kissinger said Israel to stop, Israel had to stop in '73 even though they could've annihalted Saddat's third army in Sinai... so yes, US is a good partner and also a possible friend as long as they don't start dominating your policies...

Archer
29 Nov 06,, 05:53
Launcher? The AAD project is the most likely candidate.

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/univ.jpg

"L&T and DRDO have co-developed this "Universal Missile Launcher", configured on a wheeled vehicle and designed to launch SAMs in vertical or inclined launch modes. It features an all-electrical 28 V DC system, complete silent mode of operation, auto levelling, advanced electronic controls and an advanced user console and GUI."

http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/aug04/missile15.htm

I wonder why the TEL is even an issue, what with previously developed TELs like this,

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/aeroindia2005/images/BrahmosTELVehicle.jpg

The Brahmos TEL and associated FCS were developed in India.


Radar?

http://www.sg.hu/kep/2005_10/greenpine.jpg

Or in the local context:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/aeroindia2005/images/IB-PrithviWSP.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/aeroindia2005/images/IB-PritviMCC.jpg

Digital Datalink, for MCC; or rather, to demonstrate that the capanbility exists in the case of a similar system.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/aeroindia2005/images/IB-PrithviDDL.jpg


All this part of the:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/aeroindia2005/images/PrithviGroundStation.jpg

Missile? Wont happen anytime soon, the project is too sensitive. That much was made clear at the ITR conference.

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 06:39
Plans for missile interceptors unveiled

By Our Staff Reporter



BANGALORE Feb. 8. The country's top scientists, engineers, and policy makers put up a "team'' front on the fourth day of Aero India 2003, as they spoke about their plans. Saturday was also the last day of an international seminar on "Aerospace technologies: Developments and strategies''.

The seminar ended with a plenary session on Indian aviation, with the experts talking about going beyond LCA, missile defence, and markets for domestic or joint venture aerospace products.

T.S. Prahlad, former Director of the National Aerospace Laboratories, who conceived the Saras civilian multi-role aircraft, said the Indian Air Force was supporting a limited series production of six planes.

On the LCA project, he said the "most technology-intensive team effort'' had given the country solid grounding in several key technologies. Later, he told The Hindu that the indigenous Kaveri engine was "still the long-term option for the LCA'', on India's reported decision to buy more GE 404 engines to meet production deadlines.

Going beyond the LCA, Dr. Prasad said a medium-range combat aircraft (MCA) was being planned.

A talk by former Chief Advisor to the DRDO, K.G. Narayanan, reinforced the view that unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) would play an increasingly important role in the future. After `Lakshya', the pilotless target aircraft, which now has an export market, and `Nishant', a `sub-sonic' reconnaissance UAV, India will now develop a UAV that will "have a place on a ballistic missile launch warning platform''.

V.K. Saraswat, Director, RCI, DRDO, said missile defence would be given impetus: programmes included developing missile interceptors. Variants of the `Agni' I and II, and those of `Prithvi' were now at the production stage. `Nag', an anti-tank missile would go into production next year, and work was on to adapt `Astra', an air-to-air missile, to the LCA, he added.

On the academic front, B. Datta Guru, Chairman, Department of Aerospace Engineering, Indian Institute of Science, said research in the coming years would be driven by the need for new design and methods for making aircraft.

Another Example it was under developement for LONG.

1bs
29 Nov 06,, 07:11
JDW or other reputable sources (Non-Indian Propaganda Machines) will report in detail about this lala test in couple months. The bubbles will burst again just like all the other DRDO's scams that We've been hearing about for decades..

ummm...and some Indian kid will lose 50 bucks.

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 07:18
There is no doubt you are a moron!!
mods take care of him, as per the posts in bollywood section too.

you have no technical info to back it up, dont talk , unfold previous page and check what are the wuestions i've asked.
answer then please.

bull
29 Nov 06,, 07:21
This is a quid-pro-quo of the nuke deal. The Arrow is a MCTR Class 1 missile, so no one is going public about the exchange. Instead it is being sold as some "secret" missile developed by DRDO. A story only an Indian could believe.

i dont care damn about to whom it belongs to actually, i am happy if we have something in our arsenal that can give some sort of a protection from BM.period

Its almost,say 99% sure it was "something else",definitly not a prithvi which did the intrecept.Well there were even reports of prithvis and Agnis accuracy.

Afterall how can you expect DRDO to do this?If they could then the akash should hav ebeen operational by now?


I have worked on missiles. I know how long it takes to develop, the amount of testing involved, the steps that you have to take. It's an incremental process.

We/I have heard these stories a damn hundred times.....:rolleyes:

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 07:44
Afterall how can you expect DRDO to do this?If they could then the akash should hav ebeen operational by now?

Akash HAD SUCCESSFUL TESTS, BUT I'M SURE THEY WANTED SOMETHING BETTER SO DIDNT BOUGHT AKASH INTO SERVICE hurrily but planned a network of system under which akash will be a aprt!!
PLEASE GO TO AKASH SAM'S WEBSITE AND CHECK THE SUCCESSFUL TESTS.

this is not single test.this is under work for many many years how many more proof do ya need bull?
400 m dollar budget sanction
new vehicle.
solid stage rocket same dia as prithvi
so many akash/trishul tests "seeker test"
rajendra radars.
4 times prithvi test in before 4 years inspite it being inducted in 1996.

plus i've shown you so many reportes before of a RC1 project.
and things like that.

1bs
29 Nov 06,, 07:46
There is no doubt you are a moron!!
mods take care of him, as per the posts in bollywood section too.

you have no technical info to back it up, dont talk , unfold previous page and check what are the wuestions i've asked.
answer then please.


Moderators are rational people, they don't ban people just because they don't kiss Indian asses.

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 08:03
You cannot argue on technical basis can you?
if yes your welcome.
kindly give me each details of the against arguments given in previous pages.

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 08:09
why dont you damn see the pictures and tell me what are those damn things are?
http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/univ.jpg
CHECK THIS.

there are more than 25 proofs i can give you, if you want sane discussion your welcome.
ready?
then scroll the pages check tronic/mine/archers projects IEEE papers etc etc and tell me what are those for?

thanks,
i want to see how deep sea fish you are.

Archer
29 Nov 06,, 08:12
JDW or other reputable sources (Non-Indian Propaganda Machines) will report in detail about this lala test in couple months. ..


Tsk tsk, pakistanis and their caste based insults..errmm...I mean grow up will you? Its been hundreds of years since you lot converted, at least now act like fair, tall, peachy bottomed egaliterian muslims..

Hmmm...I use JDW as a toilet rag at times. I daresay many others do so too. Othertimes, its worth a read. Quite inconsistent really. Dear child, grow up and stop depending on JDW and the like as the be-all and end-all.


The bubbles will burst again just like all the other DRDO's scams that We've been hearing about for decades

Indeed...the more the better. DRDOs scams have meant that India is now a nation which makes its own EW gear, radars and ballistic missiles.

Pakistan....hmmm...lets see. Green Paint. Hmmm..and of course, waits for President Hu to give some freebies?

Seriously, coming from a nation which passes this (http://habibmotorcars.com/main.html) off as a car, it takes some denial to be comparing yourself against your betters. :tongue:


ummm...and some Indian kid will lose 50 bucks.

That Indian kid has fifty bucks to begin with..didnt have to beg Uncle Sam's dineros for whacking his own countrys citizens either.

Samudra
29 Nov 06,, 08:21
This is a quid-pro-quo of the nuke deal.

Dont be stupid. The nuke deal isnt done yet and a good number of our people dont want us to sign it in its present form. Take a moment to think about the yarn you want to spin. It needs to make sense.


The Arrow is a MCTR Class 1 missile, so no one is going public about the exchange. Instead it is being sold as some "secret" missile developed by DRDO. A story only an Indian could believe.

You know Highsea, if what you have derived from your spectacularly wild imagination is indeed true then I will be the happiest Indian on this forum today.

The MTCR has finally been reduced what it is really worth - toilet paper

And since your 'theory' is that this is a quid-pro-quo of the 'nuke deal' I'm glad that CTBT and NPT have also been reduced to toilet paper.

Think about it. IF we are to take the yarn you've spun to be true then all that the mighty all powerfull Americans wanted to deny us are today being given to us on a silver plate. Mighty America humbled.

(Ofcourse, you can always deny that and say the missile is Indian thereby help save some honor for USA)

I'm so glad about it. Two of the discriminatory technology denial regimes - the nuclear apartheid has finally been overcome by India. If only I were able to watch the faces of those NPT fans now.....:cool:

So whatever be the origin of the missile it has finally signalled the end of technology denial regimes - a slap in the face of the supremely arrogant. India has emerged as the victor.

Archer
29 Nov 06,, 08:24
Its almost,say 99% sure it was "something else",definitly not a prithvi which did the intrecept.Well there were even reports of prithvis and Agnis accuracy.

You need to read up on the Prithvi and Agnis actual technical details. Begin with this and the sections on accuracy and the like:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Agni.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Prithvi.html


Afterall how can you expect DRDO to do this?If they could then the akash should hav ebeen operational by now?

Why would you think that the equipment developed for the Akash is not being used for this project? Look at:

www.akashsam.com

..and then determine yourself, about what could be of relevance to this project.

In other words, always remember- the first project is the hardest since you begin with a blank piece of paper, and no facilities, personnel or industrial ability to assist you.

That is no longer the case.

Most critical hurdles have been overcome, but the key thing is for the missile to be tested under operational conditions, this involves heavy EW and challenging mission profiles, which are being debated between IAF and the DRDO. The Rajendra is ready, the missile has consistently hit targets in previous trials, and the CAR has been purchased by the AF and Navy. The BCC (battery control centre) was demonstrated a year or two back itself.

Secondly, the Akash (and all other non strategic missile programs)- have never been the focus of the IGMDP as the ballistic missile program has been.
The ABM is a strategic program or has been deemed so by the Indian Govt. Lets wait and see the result. Writing it off this early, would be a mistake.

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 08:27
Samudra there is no reason for breaking MCTR, as the day we will get it i can assure you russians will know about it.
And will violate it by most which is most scariest thing for US.

I'm quite sure US wouldnt want russia to give kh-55 around the world and things like that.
its only MCTR that is keeping russia from selling such things in world and they have said "mctr is harming our trade".

and all these above things clearly suggests its a new missile....

Samudra
29 Nov 06,, 08:29
Bull,

In addition to Archers links please buy Raj Chengappa's 'Weapons of Peace'. That book is the one you ought to read if you want to understand niceties of our nuclear and missile programmes.

So repeat after me now : The NPT and MTCR are DEAD. Long live NPT and MTCR. :biggrin:

Samudra
29 Nov 06,, 08:32
Samudra there is no reason for breaking MCTR

Bro, I'm not saying the MTCR has been "broken". Highsea proclaims the missile we recently test fired is of foreign origin - a class I MTCR missile. If that indeed is true its a big failure for them Yanks and Europeans who denied us these very missiles before. Either way we win and they lose. :biggrin:

Archer
29 Nov 06,, 08:33
I second that suggestion. Weapons of Peace is an incredible, in depth portrayal of the Indian Nuke program and touches on many aspects of the same. I dont think anyone, bar Raj Chengappa has got that level of access, nor would they be able to do half as good a job as he has.

Archer
29 Nov 06,, 08:35
Bro, I'm not saying the MTCR has been "broken". Highsea proclaims the missile we recently test fired is of foreign origion - a class I MTCR missile. If that indeed is true its a big failure for them Yanks and Europeans who denied us these very missiles before. Either way we win and they lose. :biggrin:

Been watching AVP have we?;)

http://www.numetro.co.za/feature_content/images/alien_vs_predator.jpg

Samudra
29 Nov 06,, 08:42
Been watching AVP have we?;)

Only here everybody loses and we win. :biggrin:

(Awrite a lot more work to be done, but hey given the attention this has garnered I think they're already getting a clue about the way things are going to go in future:redface:)

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 08:52
Bro, I'm not saying the MTCR has been "broken". Highsea proclaims the missile we recently test fired is of foreign origin - a class I MTCR missile. If that indeed is true its a big failure for them Yanks and Europeans who denied us these very missiles before. Either way we win and they lose.

Hehe, i'm researching more and the more i look more mystry comes and things clears up this is by no mean any Arrow 2.

the missile carrying vehicle in AKASH site is totally diff from AAD so what are those for ;).

btw Pakistan tested a n-capable missile today "saheen -1", its welcomed its exactly what we want a vigorous Arms race.

I'm just waiting for this Sagarika thing, my intutition saying it will be a success :)

if we did this thing is it possible to deply this in afganistan Archer? by any means after 5 or so years?

What is more interesting if this is home grown at later stages to counter cruise missiles in ships exclusive support ships equipped with these kinda thing "slightly mobilised" can be used.....kinda like US uses SM3.

Whats the range of rajendra radar?
the trackin power is 200 i think.

Archer
29 Nov 06,, 09:14
Whats the range of rajendra radar?
the trackin power is 200 i think.

Rajendra Block-III

http://img85.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batterylevelradarinfoboard1lc.jpg

The tracking ranges mentioned (imho) refer to high grade STT level track.

The one on Akashsam.com is an earlier block, able to track 20.

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 09:17
oh so the divya dristi is the one with 200 tracking power and 800 kms range , rajendra being64?

there was one with 200 tracking max.which one is it?

Archer
29 Nov 06,, 09:20
oh so the divya dristi is the one with 200 tracking power and 800 kms range , rajendra being64?

You are comparing apples to oranges here. Divya Drishti is a passive system. It is meant to intercept different incoming communications signals from aircraft and the like, and then triangulate them, etc.
It is not a radar. It can however, be used for early warning and the like, and since its entirely passive, it will be a pain to detect or even combat.

Rajendra is a battery level radar, read www.akashsam.com to get an idea of how it works and at what level.


there was one with 200 tracking max.which one is it?

Thats the new long range radar being developed for the ABM system. The CAR for the Akash (Central Acquisition radar), can track 150 and has been sold to the AF separately (7) and to the Navy (2).

Samudra
29 Nov 06,, 09:32
What is more interesting if this is home grown at later stages to counter cruise missiles in ships exclusive support ships equipped with these kinda thing "slightly mobilised" can be used.....kinda like US uses SM3.

We will have the Barak-II.

Archer
29 Nov 06,, 10:10
I wonder if MFSTAR tech transfer is part of the Barak deal? 350 Million sounds suspiciously too much otherwise.

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 12:20
Title: India to design ABM on US lines: Kalam
Author:
Publication: The Times of India
Date: 1/5/2000
URL: http://www.timesofindia.com/050100/05home5.htm
Contact: editor@timesofindia.com

PUNE: India is to design a state-of-the-art anti-ballistic missile
(ABM) system on the lines of the US Star-Wars system, according to A P
J Abdul Kalam, the architect of Indian missiles programme. And while
the country's first Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) would be tested before
this month-end, efforts are on to operationalise within two or three
years all missile systems, besides Agni and Prithvi, which had already
been operationalised, he added.

``The country can also pursue a inter-continental ballistic missile
(ICBM) programme, if adequate funds are made available for the
project,'' he told the plenary session of the 87th Indian Science
Congress here on Monday evening.

Kalam, who recently assumed charge as the chief scientific adviser to
the government, was sharing the platform with ISRO chairman K
Kasturirangan and Atomic Energy Commission chairman R Chidambaram
unfolding ``the Indian strategies of science and technology in the
21st century''.

Kalam said the unmanned supersonic aircraft being developed by ISRO
would go a long way in defence application and help save the lives of
pilots.

He added that the future war scenario in the world will be
characterised by economic and cyber warfare involving global dynamics
such as WTO patent regime and technology regime.

He said the Prime Minister's vision of India becoming a developed
nation within two decades would be possible only if the country became
technologically advanced. And the supersonic plane carrying 15 times
of the current orbital load now being developed by ISRO was a step in
that direction.

At the same time, the country had to double its nuclear power
generation to 40,000 MW even as it was preparing itself for a lunar
flight shortly.

Economically strong self-reliant in all aspects, including weapons and
with the standing of its own could make India a developed country
where natural and human resources were blended suitably to ensure
security of food and in defence and industrial sectors.

India, Kalam said, was forced to explode nuclear devices for the
second time to tell the neighbours, including China and Pakistan, that
it did not lag behind in technology.

AEC chairman R. Chidambaram said nuclear option was the only way to
meet indigenous power needs. All the 10 nuclear power plants now
operational in the country were working with 78 per cent average
capacity and had not been affected by the Y2K bug.

Indian industry, he said, was now fully equipped to meet the spare
parts demand of the nuclear programme of the country. The fact that
several reactors had undergone change in their designs over the years
vindicated this aspect.

One of the major achievements of research in atomic energy department,
Chidambaram said, was the development of desalination plants while
efforts were underway to develop ``fission-fusion hydridisation to tap
more energy''.

ISRO chairman Kasturirangan talked of the futuristic space programme
which, he said, included development of mass transport systems
carrying several tonnes of payloads, space tourism, space exploration,
and national information infrastructure combining the gamut of
satellite systems.

Other areas of research underway included mobile satellite services
for fleet monitoring, messaging, datafaxing and voice casting which
could be operational within 10 to 15 years.

India, he said, was working with international agencies for developing
positioning and navigation systems and global position systems and the
action plan would be ready within a year.

Discussions will be held with the rural developent and other
ministries for developing village communication kiosks using digital
sound and data broadcast systems to ensure village development. At the
same time, broadcast capacity to rural areas had to be developed in
phases, he said.

Apart from developing natural disaster monitoring and managing
systems, efforts were underway to make up natural resources inventory
and systems and atlases for socio-economic modelling, resources
inventory systems and direct-to-home

This article speaks a lot from when we are developing stuffss...
if he declared this officially in 2000, feasibility studies , ground work have to begin 5 years ago and theoritical studies around 90's.

not get too overdrived though, i've a feeling we will also have a working scramjet[prototype] within 2015.
just economy......is most imp key, enough to keep our IIT grads home.
I've more than 100% expectations of miracles from our grads talent provided they stays here.

northface
29 Nov 06,, 16:22
Tell ya what- I'll hedge a bit and say it was either Arrow or Patriot (assuming it was really a successful intercept, and not a phony claim like we've seen in the past).

And to show you my heart's in the right place, we'll make it $50. :tongue:


I think your confidence is misplaced. It's not Arrow or Patriot for sure. Joey wins the bet. ;)

1. Different specs for one length and range.
2. Transfer of Arrow or Patriot systems would be in the news in India since it would involve a large sum of money.
3. India would no take Arrow or Patriot and claim it as indigenous. No reason to. As such there wer open talks on acquiring an ABM system with many parties.
4. DRDO in the past has never made an indigenous claim on a foreign product. It's pretty open about it.
5. Reputation of DRDO scientists is at stake if they make as false a declaration.
6. They've been working confidentially on this for years now.

If at all you're certain that this cannot be developed by India you must say which aspect is technologically beyond Indian scientists to develop.

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 16:34
Title: India to design ABM on US lines: Kalam
Author:
Publication: The Times of India
Date: 1/5/2000
URL: http://www.timesofindia.com/050100/05home5.htm
Contact: editor@timesofindia.com

PUNE: India is to design a state-of-the-art anti-ballistic missile
(ABM) system on the lines of the US Star-Wars system, according to A P
J Abdul Kalam, the architect of Indian missiles programme. And while
the country's first Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) would be tested before
this month-end, efforts are on to operationalise within two or three
years all missile systems, besides Agni and Prithvi, which had already
been operationalised, he added.

For heavens sake this is under work for atleast 10 years or so...

northface saw news? trishul dev is complete? and IAF would come to trials soon.

highsea
29 Nov 06,, 19:41
Launcher? The AAD project is the most likely candidate.Possibly, but just speculation.

I wonder why the TEL is even an issue, what with previously developed TELs like this,Because it could potentially identify the missile system.

I'm not interested in "A" launcher, Archer, but "THE" launcher actually used in the test. Show us the test, and we can identify the missile and put an end to the speculation.

The Brahmos TEL and associated FCS were developed in India.Never said they weren't.

Radar?

http://www.sg.hu/kep/2005_10/greenpine.jpgYep. Developed for Arrow. No additional integration needed.


Or in the local context:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/aeroindia2005/images/IB-PrithviWSP.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/aeroindia2005/images/IB-PritviMCC.jpg

Digital Datalink, for MCC; or rather, to demonstrate that the capanbility exists in the case of a similar system.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/aeroindia2005/images/IB-PrithviDDL.jpg


All this part of the:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/events/aeroindia2005/images/PrithviGroundStation.jpgAll part of Privthi. This was not a Privthi missile. It's true that you leverage technologies between programs, but not everything can cross over. You can't just take a hodgepodge of components from other programs and throw them together and have a new missile, which is what people are trying to claim.

Missile? Wont happen anytime soon, the project is too sensitive. That much was made clear at the ITR conference.Yet every other missile program is not sensitive, and this one is purely defensive.

Hard to believe. Why are all the tactical and strategic missiles public, yet a mere interceptor SAM is shrouded in secrecy? It doesn't add up.

At least you make an attempt to address my points, Archer, thank you for that. Some of your countrymen have resorted to ad hom attacks. Typical of them, I have to say, though unfortunate.

What makes the rest of the world sceptical of this claim is simply the track record and proven capabilities we have seen over the years- It's kind of like if China claimed they put a man on the moon last week- it would be pretty hard to accept without something to back up the claim. This intercept is way beyond the scope of anything we have seen to date from Indian SAM's.

There are only a handful of missiles in the world that are known capable of making this intercept, and none of them are built in India. Where are the lead up tests? Why would you launch a target missile if you don't even know if your SAM will reach altitude, since it's never flown before?

It has been publicly stated that India wants Arrow very much, and that the US has agreed to lift restrictions previously placed as part of the nuke deal. No one has even attempted to contradict these facts. So why is it so hard to believe that what we are hearing about this test from the media is just a cover story? It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

I think after the nuke deal is officially put into US law with full Congressional approval and Presidential signature, the full story wrt this interceptor will come out. Right now it's not appropriate to jump the gun officially, hence the dubious story we are all hearing today.

I am not the only one sceptical, I am just outspoken enough to say so, lol.

Anyway, time will tell. If the story proves true, I will be the first to admit I was wrong. :)

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 20:21
There are only a handful of missiles in the world that are known capable of making this intercept, and none of them are built in India. Where are the lead up tests? Why would you launch a target missile if you don't even know if your SAM will reach altitude, since it's never flown before?

It has atleast flown 5 to 7 times before.
There is zero reason of testing prithvi 4 top 5 times before when it was tested and inducted from 1996.

This is in dev for atleast 8 years.

Todays MOD report said "Trishul has been finished developement and everything of IGMPD or whatever will be finished by 2007 - trishul and akash"
the official written document said trishul had 82 test flights and akash dunno.

You are only telling on the base "its hard to believe", but your not seeing the whole series of reports drama tests mods reports budgets that are coming out.
and your not acknowledging them or interpreting them.

I show you a 2000 told by Kalam about this, how much more proofful it can get?

Maybe prithvi was intercepted much below[definitely not 50 kms as the report suggests], maybe warhead in prithvi doesnt seperates so a easy target but nonetheless if this has 50% of the success rate in first test it will send nightmares over borders.
its by no way arrow 2.



Anyway, time will tell. If the story proves true, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.

k :)

Tronic
29 Nov 06,, 20:26
Hard to believe. Why are all the tactical and strategic missiles public, yet a mere interceptor SAM is shrouded in secrecy? It doesn't add up.

This was not in secrecy, it was a low profile project considering that everything else which has been made publicly open has got bashed and gotten a bad rep from the media. From the reports presented, this program was being worked upon before 2000, it was known, that is how they got the money for the program in the first place... it was simply given a low profile...

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 20:28
There is a very nice calculation with many thins based on in BR.
The mass of this thing mightl be around 3200 kg's and arrow 2 is 1300 kg.
i'm just sayin it anyways.

Another thing in 2004 prithvi 2 was fired whist prithvi 3 was fire beforw 2000.
then again mod said we fired prithvi 3 then again prithvi 2 in some successful 3-4 years.

Its literally absurd how they kept testing Prithvi after 2000 when its only 200 kms range and has MUCH LESS STRATEGIC IMPORTANCE and has finished everything in 1996.

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 20:34
This was not in secrecy, it was a low profile project considering that everything else which has been made publicly open has got bashed and gotten a bad rep from the media. From the reports presented, this program was being worked upon before 2000, it was known, that is how they got the money for the program in the first place... it was simply given a low profile...



Title: India to design ABM on US lines: Kalam
Author:
Publication: The Times of India
Date: 1/5/2000
URL: http://www.timesofindia.com/050100/05home5.htm
Contact: editor@timesofindia.com

PUNE: India is to design a state-of-the-art anti-ballistic missile
(ABM) system on the lines of the US Star-Wars system, according to A P
J Abdul Kalam, the architect of Indian missiles programme. And while
the country's first Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) would be tested before
this month-end, efforts are on to operationalise within two or three
years all missile systems, besides Agni and Prithvi, which had already
been operationalised, he added.

There cannot be anymore better proof.

new solid stage rocket developed in 2002.
subsequent prithvi TEST ONLY AFTER 2002, that too one prithvi 3 then again prithvi 2 and like this
todays mod report saying trishul/akash had 82 flishts total means "seeker testing has been done many many times".
new TEL that can carry only one missile shows its a heavy weight and calculations shows have to be around 3000 kg.
Rajendra radars.
rejection of pac3

Prithvi as a nuke missile has ZERO STRATEGIC IMPORTANCE as it has to be carried right to the border to deply then still nuke crisis will fall out on both sides.

Read wings of fire by kalam , it clearly said how media and everyone presumes everything developed in india has some unindian hand which is completely wrong.

I'm not saying this compares with Arrow 2 but s300/400 quite possible.

I'm sure the test was political, with "prithvi 2 tested again the day before" which i'm sure is to study the operational parametres of another missile under prithvi 2.
Todays test with media and bla bla is just to show the success while it has undergone tests before for sure.

Tronic
29 Nov 06,, 20:40
ah, nice pull joey, there even that report is from year 2000 and talks about India developing an ABM system, so it was defenitely not a 'secret'...

highsea
29 Nov 06,, 20:51
Joey- I have read the some of thread on BR. Interesting that were some other legitimate questions brought up that were not satisfactorily adressed either- questions posted by Indian posters, I might add. (look on page 7, Shankar's post)

Speculation about the dimensions are useless, since there are no published specs on this "new" missile to compare.

This was not, repeat, NOT a Privthi. 3 or 4 Privthi tests are not even enough to call that missile reliable by any reasonable measure. You need at least a dozen successive tests, and you will learn something new each time. Look at our Space Shuttle- we had hundreds of good launches, and still had two catastrophic failures.

If you want to drag the entire BR forum into our discussion, fine. Please do not copy/paste my posts. Just point them to this thread (which you already did anyway). BTW, please ask them to leave their childish name-calling at BR. I would appreciate at least an attempt to keep this discussion a civil one on WAB.

highsea
29 Nov 06,, 20:55
There cannot be anymore better proof.Lol. There can be lots better "proof". You just can't provide any.

Todays test with media and bla bla is just to show the success while it has undergone tests before for sure.Then why no witnesses??

highsea
29 Nov 06,, 21:00
Well, this topic has been beaten to death, and clearly we do not have anything useful to go on.

I will not post again until there is something worthwhile to comment on.

Back to work, lol.

Enjoy.

Tronic
29 Nov 06,, 21:01
joey, btw, do you know what missile this is? It was posted on BR... it looks like a modified Prithvi with a very sharp nose... picture is a couple of years old...
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Images/Stubbed%20nose%20Prithvi-3%20.jpg

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 21:04
highsea your moving from the point by dragging space shuttle and stuffs.
The fact being tomorrow at 5 am i googled "Indias ABM programme" and the first article i came up with is Kalams thing.

That is my first thing, yes there was more than 1 tests the prithvi tests of 4 times says that clearly.which was not prithvi by any means.

This can be equal to S300/400 noone is claiming it to be equal to Arrow 2 but if you think "yes you need a dozen "12" tests and no we cannot do it after 5/ tests atleast a prithvi interception" i dunno.....what really to say cuz your calculation is based on only three things

1> There is no reports India testing ABM no pics so india cant.
2> I know indian capability , so india cant
3> Since this nuke deal has been passed everything is quid-pro-pro, MRCA/ABM etc etc

Can you provide me "lot better" than my "better" proof except those above points?

Its really funny when someone says US violated MCTR so balantly without any congress debate etc etc and MCTR is the only thing that is keeping russia in check.

My proofs,

1> Subsequent prithvi tests more than 4/5 tims after 2000 which is not prithvi as it HAS BEEN INDUCTED IN ARMED FORCES BY 1996 AND A 200 KMS NUKE MISSILE has no strategic importance.
2> Developement of Radars.
3> Official ABM programme told by kalam in 2000 which started before 1998.
4> 444 Million dollars granted by NDA govt in 2003 fot this project.
5> New vehicle developed.
6> Some reporters who are extremely close to ISRO/DRDO like TSB said what they said.
7> Orkut DRDO community.
8> AKASH had many successful tests
9> Todays MOd said AKASH/Trishul had 82 tests total.


and all this is claimed as foo "bogus" we simply tested arrow 2 afterall we're indian.

lets just wait and see.

Julie
29 Nov 06,, 21:06
I would appreciate at least an attempt to keep this discussion a civil one on WAB.I am in full agreement with that. I would like to further say you guys are "teetering" on the edge with this thread, so stay away from the edge and I wont have to put a lock on it. Thanks. :)

Archer
29 Nov 06,, 21:08
Possibly, but just speculation.
Because it could potentially identify the missile system.

I'm not interested in "A" launcher, Archer, but "THE" launcher actually used in the test. Show us the test, and we can identify the missile and put an end to the speculation.

C'mon why would you think that DRDO will come out and clearly state, that this is the XYZ launcher intended for a program which they hadnt even clearly acknowledged bar a few cursory press reports? The TEL can give you the specs of the missile, in terms of physical dimensions which in turn tells upon performance (xyz dia with abcd propellant, hmmm...this could be the final velocity, burn time etc) and obviously they'd like to keep the information under wraps. In this case, the AAD launcher is for an Air Defense program per the released information. *But* its not for the Akash (whose launchers I have seen and are different), and likewise for the Trishul, which had much lighter units. Ergo, this is the most likely candidate for this ATBM program.


Never said they weren't.

Sure, but the point was that launcher development or TELs are not a technical issue by any means for India.


Yep. Developed for Arrow. No additional integration needed.

Sure. But without the Citron Tree FCS or for that matter, the actual missiles themselves, its just a long range radar. The point is that we have a defense news report citing Saraswat, which also mentions that this radar will be the long range sensor for a local AD grid. We also have other reports about developing long range radars for ABM purposes. Then we have the multiple datapoints from different firms in India, working on things such as Tx/Rx modules for specific applications. It pretty much confirms the public reports.


All part of Privthi. This was not a Privthi missile. It's true that you leverage technologies between programs, but not everything can cross over. You can't just take a hodgepodge of components from other programs and throw them together and have a new missile, which is what people are trying to claim.

How do we know they are all "part of Prithvi"? They were displayed in an unassuming exhibit in AI-2005 beside a Prithvi stall and most folks just passed it by. No person standing there to explain its function either. Some of the stuff in the latter pictures doesnt quite add up either- why have long range radars cued to Prithvis, which will "defend" a zone. Looks more like a SAM, rather than any sort of BM. The GreenPine is shown as a sensor. Its not meant for tracking ground targets or the like (though it could), but is for an ABM role.

Secondly, who says that a "hodge podge" of components from other programs will be used- there will be different systems available from various programs, all of which can contribute to the development of specific systems for the ATBM program.

For instance- DRDO implemented (for the IAF) a software and control system, that basically netted the IAF AD grid (sensor fusion from the >300 km range ST-68U's with 2D radars and other sensors.). For the Akash, they have demonstrated the Rajendra+ CAR sensor fusion, with multiple batteries. The IAF is also using BEL vs ECIL (both local firms) to develop an IACCS (Integrated command and control system) for their entire ADGES. Each of these systems has a direct bearing on the capability to field a similar network for multiple batteries of ATBMs or the like.

In the case of the Prithvi, we have public reports of it being a Prithvi derivative with some differences. It could either be disinformation (to cover up a similar missile), or in fact be somewhat true- ie Prithvi rocket stage (there have been many reports/ rumours of a solid fuelled Prithvi derivative being developed) combined with the other components necessary for the ATBM. The point is that thanks to the IGMDPs, BM component, India has mastered a variety of propulsion technologies, with a variety of differing motors. Each of these has differing burn profiles, propellant, performance etc- but they all offer the ability to be modified for other purposes, since India has mastered that tech and has substantial production facililities set up.



Yet every other missile program is not sensitive, and this one is purely defensive.

If we actually follow news from DRDO, they have not even defended themselves from attacks on the Prithvi and Agni or released any production numbers till date- the secrecy associated with the IGMDP is substantial, and the OSA is all pervasive. The media has speculated heavily, and occasional leaks occur when a test takes place. The only information apart from that comes from the DRDO directors press conference or senior officials.
In such a clime, the ATBM program is definitely in the league of a Prithvi or Agni, far more than even an Akash or Nag, and information will be very hard to come by. On this occasion, I daresay, they have been open about the event thanks to all the sledging going on against the org, but they will not be so in the future. As an Indian, I'd rather they were less descriptive of the strategic programs, but that only allows the media more room to speculate and dish dirt. Its being caught between a rock and a hard place. Unlike the US, India does not have Full spectrum dominance by any means over its likely adversaries (China and Pak), so it has to play its cards close to its chest- yet balance with an open audit process plus all sorts of media speculation.



Hard to believe. Why are all the tactical and strategic missiles public, yet a mere interceptor SAM is shrouded in secrecy? It doesn't add up.


We need to take a look at the timeline. Throughout the 80's and early 90's- the IGMDP was heavily criticised in the west as "destabilising" and that it should have been wound up, even whilst China proceeded apace with its missile program, and enough items ended up in Pak hands. The Agni for instance, was classed as a TD (tech demonstrator), and the GOI all but gave the public impression that it had been halted (it hadnt). *That* is the aspect under which these missiles were developed; today its a far cry - when some GOI official can actually admit the existence of an Agni-3. Even so, when the Agi-3 was to be launched, it was held up because the GOI waited to see the US reaction to it- since the Nuke deal was coming up in the US. So its not as if the IGMDP is particularly well known or its abilities discerned. For instance, bar the usual four-five line press release, actual details are very rarely revealed about the programs.

The second point is that this ATBM program, has a lot of strategic connotations, including Paks use of terror against India which it backs by WMD, and that India will play its cards close to the chest, since the moment Indias audit agencies or media declare a particular system, Pak purchases the same, or for that matter China gets a peek into decision making.


What makes the rest of the world sceptical of this claim is simply the track record and proven capabilities we have seen over the years- It's kind of like if China claimed they put a man on the moon last week- it would be pretty hard to accept without something to back up the claim. This intercept is way beyond the scope of anything we have seen to date from Indian SAM's.


The point is that India does not care much for public opinion. Nor has DRDO; thats exactly why the media has been able to publish whatever it wants for donkeys years without even a single press release from the DRDO PRO rebutting the allegations. Now, they are being forced to take account. In the early 90's when India started talking of the Agni missile, similar comments were made. Today, its in its third or fourth iteration. There is a lot to back up Indias claim about having worked on a similar program, but its been hidden in the background noise- as I pointed out about the radar, TEL etc. Coming to SAMs- what you folks dont understand is that the RCIs best teams and the bulk of its effort has gone towards the strategic programs, such as the Prithvi and Agni. If this is indeed a similar program, it will be treated likewise and pushed through.
I'd wait and watch too, but there are many indications that they are taking this very seriously.




When you say


There are only a handful of missiles in the world that are known capable of making this intercept, and none of them are built in India. Where are the lead up tests? Why would you launch a target missile if you don't even know if your SAM will reach altitude, since it's never flown before?

How do you know the SAM has not been tested before? ;)

Secondly, thats the best part of derivative technology, as used in boosters, motors and the like- you can predict its performance with far greater certainty, than a scratch built product.


It has been publicly stated that India wants Arrow very much, and that the US has agreed to lift restrictions previously placed as part of the nuke deal. No one has even attempted to contradict these facts. So why is it so hard to believe that what we are hearing about this test from the media is just a cover story? It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

India wants the Arrow, the S-400, the S-2500, the PAC-3. It also wants them cheap. It also wants source codes and the like. The chances of that happening?

The cover story angle doesnt fit, because frankly- you are not looking it at as we do- if you are familiar with the way the GOI works, theres a limit which they dont cross when it comes to such information, hard as it may sound- there are too many venues by which the info comes out. The DRDO will never try such a stunt, knowing how many knives are out for their funding. If they say its a local missile- then it is. They dont have anything to gain by saying the opposite, since tomorrow some media outlet would promptly "out" the Arrow in Indian colors.


I think after the nuke deal is officially put into US law with full Congressional approval and Presidential signature, the full story wrt this interceptor will come out. Right now it's not appropriate to jump the gun officially, hence the dubious story we are all hearing today.

You will have more details (perhaps)- but its definitely not an Arrow.


I am not the only one sceptical, I am just outspoken enough to say so, lol.

Anyway, time will tell. If the story proves true, I will be the first to admit I was wrong. :)


Cheers! :)

Archer
29 Nov 06,, 21:13
Lol. There can be lots better "proof". You just can't provide any.

There is substantial evidence to back up the fact that an ABM prorgram has been worked on for more than six years.


Then why no witnesses??

Who says there were none? Its entirely a different issue about what they were permitted to film and release.

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 21:13
joey, btw, do you know what missile this is? It was posted on BR... it looks like a modified Prithvi with a very sharp nose... picture is a couple of years old...

Damn cant you see its infront MOD office? it just came from boeings factory :biggrin: "not".



highsea your moving from the point by dragging space shuttle and stuffs.
The fact being tomorrow at 5 am i googled "Indias ABM programme" and the first article i came up with is Kalams thing.

That is my first thing, yes there was more than 1 tests the prithvi tests of 4 times says that clearly.which was not prithvi by any means.

This can be equal to S300/400 noone is claiming it to be equal to Arrow 2 but if you think "yes you need a dozen "12" tests and no we cannot do it after 5/ tests atleast a prithvi interception" i dunno.....what really to say cuz your calculation is based on only three things

1> There is no reports India testing ABM no pics so india cant.
2> I know indian capability , so india cant
3> Since this nuke deal has been passed everything is quid-pro-pro, MRCA/ABM etc etc

Can you provide me "lot better" than my "better" proof except those above points?

Its really funny when someone says US violated MCTR so balantly without any congress debate etc etc and MCTR is the only thing that is keeping russia in check.

My proofs,

1> Subsequent prithvi tests more than 4/5 tims after 2000 which is not prithvi as it HAS BEEN INDUCTED IN ARMED FORCES BY 1996 AND A 200 KMS NUKE MISSILE has no strategic importance.
2> Developement of Radars.
3> Official ABM programme told by kalam in 2000 which started before 1998.
4> 444 Million dollars granted by NDA govt in 2003 fot this project.
5> New vehicle developed.
6> Some reporters who are extremely close to ISRO/DRDO like TSB said what they said.
7> Orkut DRDO community.
8> AKASH had many successful tests
9> Todays MOd said AKASH/Trishul had 82 tests total.


and all this is claimed as foo "bogus" we simply tested arrow 2 afterall we're indian.

lets just wait and see.

Lemme tell you guys the gospel truth? ok?

SINCE THIS REPORT WAS AROUND 1998 NOONE REALLY BELIEVED WE CAN DO SQUAT, JUST LIKE WE ARE TALKING OF SPACE BASED LASER AND IF WE DO SO BY 2015 WITH EFFECTIVE MINIATURIZATION , MULTIPLE SHOT CAPABILITY PPLS WILL SAY OH "US GAVE US", ITS JUST THAT NOONE BELIEVES WE HAVE A SCRAMJET PROGRAMME GOING ON, SAME NOONE BELIEVED WE CAN ACTUALLY MAKE A ABM.

even a S300V like capability is a great thing to start with.

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 21:20
guys literally think of the fallout of MCTR getting breaked, China has huge dollars to fund with they will simply sit on the table with russia and violate MCTR the most way possible.Pakistan will get the cake and will build ICBM's.then show middle finger to US.

MCTR violation CAN BE 100% TRACED IF THERE WAS ANY in this case.
highsea really dont have idea how GOI works, its SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE TO HIDE IF ARROW 2 COMES.

just think of the MCTR fallout.....................

and oh interest about Arrow 2 we have shown interest in number number of things, how many are we getting? ZERO.
hell even it is to be seen if US gives us AIM120C5/APG 79 Source codes if hornet comes let alone Arrow 2.

kams
29 Nov 06,, 21:30
Hard to believe. Why are all the tactical and strategic missiles public, yet a mere interceptor SAM is shrouded in secrecy? It doesn't add up.

Hmm, you have a point there. Even the video of the Test telecast by National Broadcaster did not show interceptor taking off. It showed only the interception.


At least you make an attempt to address my points, Archer, thank you for that. Some of your countrymen have resorted to ad hom attacks. Typical of them, I have to say, though unfortunate.

I do not recall making a single disparaging remark towards you.


What makes the rest of the world sceptical of this claim is simply the track record and proven capabilities we have seen over the years- It's kind of like if China claimed they put a man on the moon last week- it would be pretty hard to accept without something to back up the claim. This intercept is way beyond the scope of anything we have seen to date from Indian SAM's.

True. But that in itself can not be construed as lack of ability.


There are only a handful of missiles in the world that are known capable of making this intercept, and none of them are built in India. Where are the lead up tests? Why would you launch a target missile if you don't even know if your SAM will reach altitude, since it's never flown before?

No one will do a interception test as a first step. It must have been flown before. Why the secracy? I don't know.


It has been publicly stated that India wants Arrow very much, and that the US has agreed to lift restrictions previously placed as part of the nuke deal. No one has even attempted to contradict these facts. So why is it so hard to believe that what we are hearing about this test from the media is just a cover story? It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Why they have to cover it as an indigenous development? Truth will come out when they can not take it any further. Then there will be a big scandal. Remember we are a democracy and opposition parties won't let this chance to malign the govt. pass.


I think after the nuke deal is officially put into US law with full Congressional approval and Presidential signature, the full story wrt this interceptor will come out. Right now it's not appropriate to jump the gun officially, hence the dubious story we are all hearing today.

It would have been much easier for GOI to claim this as a routine test. They can even claim it went bad explaining the bang in the sky:biggrin: .



Anyway, time will tell. If the story proves true, I will be the first to admit I was wrong. :)

Don't forget the $50:biggrin: . In case you win, I will make good on Joey bet.

I can't provide you with the proof you need. So lets agree to disagree for the time being and move on till the time more definative proof emerges.

Archer
29 Nov 06,, 21:31
Gents, the same kind of doubts were expressed when India blew up nukes in 1998- "the tests failed". Sure.

The same kind of doubts have been expressed now.

When it comes to *strategic programs*- the GOI does support DRDO and have it complete its job.

The IGMDP is said to have burnt up $389 Million USD till 2003 or the like. Hold the thought.

The Trishul program used 70 Million $. This is peanuts.

An entire series of BM's productionized, a range of radars, C3I systems all developed- at the cost of peanuts, even factoring in the work ISRO did at 389 Million $ for over two decades.

India routinely spends a fraction of what most other countries do for their defence R&D and expects bang for that buck.

Consider this, the ABM program alone has been cleared for around 450 Million $- this higher expenditure will translate into more imported components and the like, but if it works, it works.

Media comments apart, the ballistic missile program has been substantially successful. If this program can do likewise, it will be boon for India's defence structure.

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 21:40
Kams your giving someone more rooms anyways thats not a problem and your right wait and see, i'm just more hyper than you adrenalin at 18 you can say.
I like your calmness.
I asked some nice things "better proof" than this still there is no "better" than mine.

its literally funny all these budgets[that too 450 million dollars] etc etc given a blind man can tell this is indian project.

Archer in orkut community of DRDO i suddenly feel a sense of satisfaction if you see that u'll believe its like just imagine ABM system completed within 2010 within 1 billion dollar budget....as someone said whos in....

Highsea kindly read about the nuke blasts and things,

last time i checked it was a total US intelligence failure predicting the test[that time] and getting the test images from satellite beforehand.
oh well.the whole story is on net only 5 person knew about it.

northface
29 Nov 06,, 21:40
Excellent reasoning. Thanks for enlightening me on many aspects. However i still don't understand why the West should see this as technologically impossible for India. I guess we have a pretty bad media coverage in the West. It just may be true they REALLY believe we worship cows, rats and dogs..:eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 21:45
Man developing a ABM is way way way easier than designing indigenous fast-breeder reactor........................................... ......

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 21:49
Excellent reasoning. Thanks for enlightening me on many aspects. However i still don't understand why the West should see this as technologically impossible for India. I guess we have a pretty bad media coverage in the West. It just may be true they REALLY believe we worship cows, rats and dogs..:eek: :confused: :rolleyes:


Guess They still thinks , All of our IIT grads goes to MIT.
Maybe they dont know these grads are staying here more and more slowly but steadily with increasing funding in R&D which lacked 20 years ago.

and yeah ofcourse sub-category students are going to US for undergrad and then also they are coming out as university first, spelling competition first :eek:

afterall their solid state laser project is headed by an indian (whos a indian firms head too), B2 stealth was invented by an indian and what not....:rolleyes:

look at me i'm a 10th school 3rd guy and in 12th with good marks.. cudnt **** clear any JEE[state level, didnt even bothered for IIT] to get what i wanted so dropped a year..and preparin though i have diff plans in mind.

Archer
29 Nov 06,, 21:50
Excellent reasoning. Thanks for enlightening me on many aspects. However i still don't understand why the West should see this as technologically impossible for India. I guess we have a pretty bad media coverage in the West. It just may be true they REALLY believe we worship cows, rats and dogs..:eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

North,

'East and west, the twain shall never meet'. Just kidding.

Western defence coverage of India is at times far better than Indian coverage. Chris Foss of JDW writing about India is far better than Rahul Bedi of JDW writing. Guess why? One is an interested professional. The other, a journo with no interest apart from making a quick buck. I daresay none of the major papers have any journalists with any dedicated experience of engineering or weapons tech or how hard it is to develop technology.

In other words, when despite the amount of data that is available on the IGMDP and the like, the Indian media keeps dumping on the local R&D (and ignores the actual areas which need improvement, like the state owned ammo and heavy armour manufacturers), why would you expect the western reporters to not mirror the same? JDW or the like, will only publish what the Indian media says.

This is apart from the usual Non proliferation, think tank junkies who are still stuck playing power politics. Theres no way they will ever agree to India's POV or acknowledge its achievements. Case in point, Gary Milhollin and his statements on the IGMDP.

Eitherways, have a beer and watch the fun. Its all tied to the economy.

As money flows, so shall defence R&D and procurement.

Archer
29 Nov 06,, 21:54
Guess They still thinks , All of our IIT grads goes to MIT.
Maybe they dont know these grads are staying here more and more slowly but steadily with increasing funding in R&D which lacked 20 years ago.

and yeah ofcourse sub-category students are going to US for undergrad and then also they are coming out as university first, spelling competition first :eek:

afterall their solid state laser project is headed by an indian (whos a indian firms head too), B2 stealth was invented by an indian and what not....:rolleyes:

C'mon Joey, tone it down. The US Education system is far superior to Indias, on average.

One Indian engineer working in NG and doing some work on IR does not mean he invented B2 stealth.

If your point is that there are many Indians who lead technology development, you are correct. But lets not go overboard.

Defence R&D is a function of many things- and we have a VERY long way to go yet.

joey2
29 Nov 06,, 22:11
C'mon Joey, tone it down. The US Education system is far superior to Indias, on average.

sorry, agreed.
hopefuly that didnt offended anyone.
Economy tied to research the key of being superior not only to india but world.



Defence R&D is a function of many things- and we have a VERY long way to go yet.

Completely Agreed.

If ray was here he cud have read this :P
"jodi tor dak sune keu na ase re tobe ekla cholo re- tagore's song" xD

kams
29 Nov 06,, 22:14
Kams your giving someone more rooms anyways thats not a problem and your right wait and see, i'm just more hyper than you adrenalin at 18 you can say.
I like your calmness.


Joey,

If you are in science arena, you have to face Skepticism everyday of your life. I have the practice. :rolleyes:

What HIGHSEA wants is absolute proof, not circumstantial evidence. We can't provide any such proof. So I suggest we move on rather than moving in circle.

As Archer said I would trade my patience to your '18' any day.

Officer of Engineers
29 Nov 06,, 22:39
Joey,

If you are in science arena, you have to face Skepticism everyday of your life. I have the practice. :rolleyes:

Why do these kids not take lessons from us dinosaurs and have to learn the hard way by getting married?

highsea
29 Nov 06,, 23:37
...I do not recall making a single disparaging remark towards you.I was not referring to you, Kams. It was some of the other comments I was talking about. A review of the thread should make it clear. While it's kind of humorous watching them "circle the wagons", it doesn't add anything to the discussion. A targeted rebuttal such as Archer has offered is more productive, and certainly displays a little more maturity. But you have not been disprespectful to me in any way, my friend, and I apologize if you thought I was talking about you.
True. But that in itself can not be construed as lack of ability.But relative ability can be assessed by the problems encountered, and the timeframes and methods used to solve them. Remember, progress is always incremental- I have not seen any of the incremental steps that have to take place before an exo-atmospheric intercept is even attemptable.

No one will do a interception test as a first step. It must have been flown before. Why the secracy? I don't know.Me either. The explanations I have heard so far seem inadequate, and everyone, including Indians who follow such things was caught by surprise. I hear a lot of "splaining" going on, but it sounds like a whole lot of rationalization to me.

Don't forget the $50:biggrin: . In case you win, I will make good on Joey bet.Lol. He already has half the BR forum offering to cover him...

I can't provide you with the proof you need. So lets agree to disagree for the time being and move on till the time more definative proof emerges.Agreed. I have a feeling the wait won't be long...;)

uss
29 Nov 06,, 23:44
Like Highsea pointed out, a video with the TEL of the interceptor should give us a good idea how close this is to the arrow. Joey, you seem to be quite well up on the Vids, pics and such...any vids we can see? will google for the same let see what we land up with.

Regards,
USS.

joey2
30 Nov 06,, 00:44
Lol. He already has half the BR forum offering to cover him...

I'm self sufficient enough to carry on with my own bet, i was just skeptical first as my technical knowledge is llimited but i read into it.
I have played bigger cards than this on my game, this was just out of me so needed to gather some quick informations from some un-NIH peoples.
Hopefully it is not an insult.


uss,
the video was on DD1 channel i saw it for sometime only, and on NDTV, it didnt showed the missile at all it only showed prithvi going up and the intercept.
one thing was clear it wasnt very high above from the ground as per i saw it in the 8 sec video.

Archer
30 Nov 06,, 01:20
Incidentally, coming to media coverage of the test:

Vishnu Som, NDTV


No you shall not. Copyright infringement will get you into trouble.

FYI .. our footage shows the liftoff but not the actual interception. It also shows contrails in the air following the impact.

Vishnu Som
Associate Editor
NDTV


Hi ... our footage is our own ... not supplied by the DRDO or any government entity. Incidentally, even broadcast of govt material, without prior, explicit permission, can land people into a whole lot of trouble. This website has huge viewership. Everyone here needs to be careful not to be carried away. If there is footage or photographs I can share ... then I do ... Tx, Vishnu

Archer
30 Nov 06,, 01:37
Me either. The explanations I have heard so far seem inadequate, and everyone, including Indians who follow such things was caught by surprise. I hear a lot of "splaining" going on, but it sounds like a whole lot of rationalization to me.

A lot of people who knew something like this was going on, kept quiet till the test and still are. I know of three people on BR who have raised this topic over the past several years, pointing to data DRDO has released in its internal journals and elsewhere. The news reports also speak for themselves- there have been comments on an ABM program since 2000 at the very minimum, with a formal Govt clearance in 2003. Prior to that, the initial groundwork seems to have been conducted within available IGMDP funding.

What you are seeking is detailed information on the systems involved. That will not come even in a decades time, given how sensitive this program is.

Archer
30 Nov 06,, 01:40
For instance, note this on 19th November.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/india/2006/india-061119-irna01.htm

As a part of the country's air defence exercise, "Prithvi", India's sophisticated surface-to-surface medium range missile, has been test fired from the integrated test range (IRT) at Chandipur-on-sea, about 15 km from Balasore (Orissa).

..

etc.

Julie
30 Nov 06,, 02:26
Why do these kids not take lessons from us dinosaurs and have to learn the hard way by getting married?I've got to tell you something that my son told me when he was 16. He said, "mom, everything you always told me since I was a little kid was always right, and always true. But now, I've got to experience things to learn them for myself." I admit, I was kinda hurt, but I said, okay. He's about to turn 20 now, and the other day he wanted just me and him to go to lunch together. While we were in the restaurant, he said mom, "I think I've finally grown up. I said, "why do you think that son?" He said because I'm getting really tired of experiencing things for myself, and I'm always thinking lately that I liked it better when you told me what I should do.

:eek: I about choked on my chicken wrap. :biggrin: I said, "how sure are you about that?"

You're going to love this answer -- he said:

"Pretty sure, because it saves alot of time." :biggrin: LOL

I couldn't help it, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry....I think I did both. :tongue:

Archer
30 Nov 06,, 03:21
...my chicken wrap.

Oh, you're evil. I must have a chicken wrap. *Hunger pangs*, goes out in search of a chicken wrap, /*Hunger pangs*.:mad:

bull
30 Nov 06,, 07:32
Bull,

In addition to Archers links please buy Raj Chengappa's 'Weapons of Peace'. That book is the one you ought to read if you want to understand niceties of our nuclear and missile programmes.

So repeat after me now : The NPT and MTCR are DEAD. Long live NPT and MTCR. :biggrin:

I will definitly buy that book,thanks.i will add that to the collection of2 iam haibg already @india-emerging power" and "India and nuclear Bomb".

I never had this habit but now after participating in such forums i am getting interested.

bull
30 Nov 06,, 07:53
highsea read this, alot of what u said is reflected here,


The missile system has to be tested in battle conditions.
While few details are available on the Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO’s) atmospheric intercept system that was tested on Monday, the experience of militarily advanced countries like the US, Russia and Israel, indicate that such a system is highly challenging to develop. The DRDO’s unknown missile interceptor, aims to be the forerunner of an anti-missile defence system and its claim that the test is a “milestone” is premature considering it was conducted under controlled conditions. This involves multiple stages from detection to ascertaining hostile presence, classification or identification of friend or foe, readying the system and finally accurately engaging the target. The entire gamut of activities from detection to engagement constitutes ‘real reaction time’ that is crucial to determining the success or failure of any missile system. Given the DRDO’s recent track record in missile development, it can at best be accused of technological overreach in this instance.

However, as always any missile systems’ capability is established under battle conditions. An anti-missile defence system implies the smooth integration of missiles, radar and tracking systems and sub-systems. The DRDO’s Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme since the early 1980s is still a long way from completion. Its Trishul low altitude, surface-to-air missile has been abandoned after nearly 30 years whilst both Akash surface to air missile and Nag anti-tank missile are nowhere near series production. And more recently the Agni III intermediate range ballistic missile failed in July following technical problems.

It is unclear whether the DRDO would eventually adopt the make-or-buy formula or opt for a combination of both for an anti-missile defence system. As always India has kept its options open to procure the Russian s-300 PMU 1 anti-ballistic missile shield in addition to acquiring the Israeli Greenpine radar and is also looking at USA’s Lockheed Martin for its various Patriot advanced capability anti-theatre ballistic missile systems. The nation’s air defence shield also needs to tackle threats not only from missiles with conventional and nuclear warneads but also drones and low flying aircraft. But the moot question is whether the DRDO’s latest experiment will eventually translate into a successful system and within a reasonable time frame.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=7809

Archer
30 Nov 06,, 10:34
Corrections to the above edit.

*The Trishuls guidance issues have apparently been resolved, and discussions are on with the IAF to arrive at the required user trials.
*The Akash is at the same stage.
*The Nag, has cleared its ground launched variant trials (helicopter based user trial yet to be undertaken).


INDIAN MOD PRESS RELEASE, 29th Nov,2006
from www.mod.nic.in

Rajya Sabha

Akash and Nag missile system are ready for users' trial after which they will enter into production and induction phase. Development of Trishul missile has also been completed. Air Force configuration has met the user requirements during its various developmental flight trials. DRDO is in dialogue with Air Force for possible induction after jointly developing the user trial criteria.


"As always India has kept its options open to procure the Russian s-300 PMU 1 anti-ballistic missile shield in addition to acquiring the Israeli Greenpine radar and is also looking at USA’s Lockheed Martin for its various Patriot advanced capability anti-theatre ballistic missile systems. "

Correction 2: India is not interested in the S-300 PMU 1 (which has been superceded by the newer 2 variant), but the latest Antey 2500 as well as the S-400 Triumf. The latter is under trials, and is quite unlikely to be released for export asap as well, given how much sensitive the Russians have been over releasing information related to it. The US has offered PAC-2, previously. India wants access to PAC-3.
And then of course, theres the Arrow.

Lastly, according to all gentlemen I have conversed with, India wants source code and detailed technical access to whichever ABM system it procures, from abroad. The chances of the US giving that kind of access to the PAC-3....

joey2
30 Nov 06,, 10:59
The second paragraph of Bulls Article is total crap.
Full of wrong information.

First one is however correct.This is at nascent stage and main thing is to integrate this entire with command and control structure.

Archer India Denied Pac - 3 too, asked for full access to Arrow 2.
France/Congress/Pakistan etc etc said No then US denied that.

Julie
30 Nov 06,, 14:06
Moderators are rational people, they don't ban people just because they don't kiss Indian asses.No, but I do give infractions for using the words such as morons, stupid, idiot, etc., as I consider that flame-baiting. Just a word of advice for everyone participating in this thread. ;)

northface
30 Nov 06,, 14:34
Have been reading through your links and posts, pretty interesting. Just some dumb questions, but how do normal ABMs seek the incoming BM at the last stages which i guess must be in milli seconds? IR, radar based homing, any other means for seeking? How exactly is the incoming BM destabilized? Is there a physical hit necessary or is some sort of warhead explosive in the incoming BMs proximity adequate to destabilze it? I've read some report of a Kinetic warhead 'hit to kill'..whats that mean?:confused:

1bs
30 Nov 06,, 15:00
The second paragraph of Bulls Article is total crap.
Full of wrong information. ..



Actually, all the Indian news are full of wrong informations..

Example from previous page posted by joey.


Title: India to design ABM on US lines: Kalam
Author:
Publication: The Times of India
Date: 1/5/2000
URL: http://www.timesofindia.com/050100/05home5.htm
Contact: editor@timesofindia.com

PUNE: India is to design a state-of-the-art anti-ballistic missile
(ABM) system on the lines of the US Star-Wars system, according to A P
J Abdul Kalam, the architect of Indian missiles programme. And while...



The US spent billions of dollars on their system and has tested many times...
How can primitive indian missiles that can barely hit a stationary target be the lines of the US system? lol

Like i said before, this is just another feel good story from DRDO that only an indian could believe.

Please continue..very entertaining :)

northface
30 Nov 06,, 15:21
Can ABMs be used to wipe out AWACs? I'm sure it would be cost effective if possible? If the range of the ABMs is increased and it is possible to knock of AWACs, would AWACS be compelled to stay out of range? Could the range be increased such that operating AWACS from Pakistani soil becomes impossible in a conflict scenario? I'm trying to read up from a few sources, but if you've some insights, lemme know. :tongue:

northface
30 Nov 06,, 15:42
Actually, all the Indian news are full of wrong informations..


How can primitive indian missiles that can barely hit a stationary target be the lines of the US system? lol

>>>>>>>>>>>


Ok lets say we agree with you that the Indian press is full of wrong informations and propaganda..

tell me how 2 primitive missiles one going at 3 kms/sec and another at some mach 10 intersect and destroy each other.

Since you seem to be so certain you sure must have some idea what happened or did not.

Tronic
30 Nov 06,, 16:27
lol, north, dont mind him, he's merely a troll.... some peole have nothing better to do when their own gov. has done nothing, so they go over to other threads and flamebait on other's success...

kams
30 Nov 06,, 16:39
Archer India Denied Pac - 3 too, asked for full access to Arrow 2.
France/Congress/Pakistan etc etc said No then US denied that.


Whaaaat? Since when France and Pakistan have say in either Pac-3 or Arrow 2?

joey2
30 Nov 06,, 17:23
Well i'll dig the articles and find out.

Congress did.
Pakistan told US not to as it will be unfair.
France did about MCTR.

joey2
30 Nov 06,, 17:30
Archer Check your PM.

Archer
30 Nov 06,, 19:36
Have been reading through your links and posts, pretty interesting.

Thanks.


Just some dumb questions, but how do normal ABMs seek the incoming BM at the last stages which i guess must be in milli seconds? IR, radar based homing, any other means for seeking? How exactly is the incoming BM destabilized? Is there a physical hit necessary or is some sort of warhead explosive in the incoming BMs proximity adequate to destabilze it?

The answer is- it depends. You can have optical discrimination from imaging infrared sensors to intercept the missile (although you need your own interceptor to not be rushing forth at the time- your own friction would render such a sensor meaningless). In otherwords, the optical sensors would be used on onboard payload, which would be deployed to kill an incoming missile/ its MIRVs.

Another method would be to use radar, again susceptible to heat, but can work.

It all depends on your own technology state and ability. The US is going for intercepting ICBMs with multiple MIRVs- those are the only missiles that can reach it; it has the ability to field highly sophisticated and expensive optical payloads and killing vehicles. And finetune this via incredibly expensive and timeconsuming tests. Its earlier PAC-2 series and the PAC-3 have anti-TBM capability as it is. India, in contrast, is sticking to a more limited system targetted against TBMs and IRBMs, since thats what it faces from Pak/ China, depending on active radar seekers with midcourse guidance to the missile (bypassing the russian approach of having missiles guided purely by their powerful engagement radars).


I've read some report of a Kinetic warhead 'hit to kill'..whats that mean?:confused:

Exactly what the words suggest- instead of a proximity fuse and explosion offset from the vehicle, you directly hit it to kill it.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline//shows/missile/technology/tests.html

The somewhat skeptical tone adopted towards the description is typical of journalists; make no mistakes whats described above is the hardest of all tasks.

Archer
30 Nov 06,, 19:41
Actually, all the Indian news are full of wrong informations..

Praise Allah!



The US spent billions of dollars on their system and has tested many times...
How can primitive indian missiles that can barely hit a stationary target be the lines of the US system? lol

Like i said before, this is just another feel good story from DRDO that only an indian could believe.

Please continue..very entertaining :)


Obviously the infidel Indians will have their stomachs roasted in hell.

"I can assure you that those villains will recognize, will discover in appropriate time in the future how stupid they are and how they are pretending things which have never taken place."

- Comical Ali, 1Bs November 2006

kams
30 Nov 06,, 20:24
Corrections to the above edit.

*The Trishuls guidance issues have apparently been resolved, and discussions are on with the IAF to arrive at the required user trials.
*The Akash is at the same stage.
*The Nag, has cleared its ground launched variant trials (helicopter based user trial yet to be undertaken).



Archer, Why IAF is still looking at SPYDER SR? or are they are looking at SPYDER MR?

joey2
30 Nov 06,, 20:24
Archer Please check your PM and do what i said.

kams
30 Nov 06,, 21:05
Archer Please check your PM and do what i said.

Joey, do you subscribe to India Today? or could you buy tomorrows edition and post a scan of article on India's ABM?

Archer
30 Nov 06,, 21:05
Archer, Why IAF is still looking at SPYDER SR? or are they are looking at SPYDER MR?

Spyder SR is meant as an interim purchase. We arent buying enough firing posts by far, for our entire needs. :-/
If Trishul is replaced with Spyder, but it should have TOT and local production.

The problem is the three beam guidance on the Trishul, delayed it (almost) beyond redemption. And the ramjet propulsion on the Akash, also caused the same issues.

Archer
30 Nov 06,, 21:21
This is the closest comparator to the Trishul, in some ways:

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Firing_Success_For_Defender_Air_Defence_System.htm l


Firing Success For Defender Air Defence System

The DEFENDER successfully fired the BARAK missile at Shdema Test Range in the south of Israel.
by Staff Writers
Shdema Test Range, Israel (SPX) Mar 20, 2006
On 28 February 2006, Thales and Rafael achieved another milestone in the DEFENDER system integration venture. The DEFENDER successfully fired the BARAK missile at Shdema Test Range in the south of Israel. This latest achievement follows previous exten-sive integration testing and dry runs.
The live firing was against a target drone. The target was detected at a range of 20 km by the FLYCATCHER Mk2's surveillance radar, and was continuously tracked by its tracking radar. When the drone was at a range of around 7 km from the DEFENDER system, the BARAK missile was launched and guided to the target until the successful interception was achieved at a distance of 6 km. BARAK achieved a direct hit on the target, proving once again the ex-treme precision of the missile and the FLYCATCHER Mk2 control system.

The FLYCATCHER Mk2 command and fire control centre is the core of a hybrid, integrated layered air defence concept developed by Thales. The FLYCATCHER Mk2 system is able to simultaneously control both guns and missile systems. Within the hybrid concept, FLY-CATCHER Mk2 also controls the vertically launched BARAK Surface-to-Air missile that was developed by RAFAEL. The BARAK missile system was originally developed for naval appli-cations and is in service with several navies around the world.

The basic concept of the Trishul is good enough- Flycatcher with a CLOS missile, provided they make that damned 3 beam thing work.

Archer
30 Nov 06,, 21:23
The IAF has also been given clearance for 18 firing units of a M-SAM, to tide over the Akash delay. But that still leaves approx double the number for an Akash acquisition. The SA-3 Pechora upgrade (stalled previously because of lack of funds) has also been approved, so thats more time for the Akash to jump through whatever hoops are set for it.

kams
30 Nov 06,, 21:30
The IAF has also been given clearance for 18 firing units of a M-SAM, to tide over the Akash delay. But that still leaves approx double the number for an Akash acquisition. The SA-3 Pechora upgrade (stalled previously because of lack of funds) has also been approved, so thats more time for the Akash to jump through whatever hoops are set for it.

M-SAM...which one? (I mean have they decided the unit?)

Didn't the Indian Army place order for Spyder?

joey2
30 Nov 06,, 21:43
I'll do it Archer, I know what your talking about.
Hopefully it will be there.
thanks.

Archer IM me na!

joey2
30 Nov 06,, 21:44
me going to sleep now archer IM me tomorrow in msn.
peace.
will do the india today thingy.
will collect both issues one for P17 series another oh well.

Archer
30 Nov 06,, 21:57
me going to sleep now archer IM me tomorrow in msn.
peace.
will do the india today thingy.
will collect both issues one for P17 series another oh well.

I Imed you already a couple of hrs back!!

:)

Archer
30 Nov 06,, 21:59
M-SAM...which one? (I mean have they decided the unit?)

No; its to be tendered this year or early next year.


Didn't the Indian Army place order for Spyder?

Yup! Which is why I wonder as to why India didnt get TOT for the P-5, if not the Derby. The LRDE LLLTR is a rough comparator to the radar for the Sypder, and the Astra a Derby like program. But there is no Python-5 equivalent.

Samudra
01 Dec 06,, 03:52
If its India Today then we all know who would have written the piece on this new missile.

That man Chengappa has been a target of my envy for too long. The bugger has acquired scale models of almost all big rockets made in India (Agni,Prithvi, PSLV,GSLV).

This SDRE Indian has to be content with pictures. :angry:

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 08:43
11th dec issue of india today isnt out here yet.
i live in a remote place it will arrive tomorrow.

here is only the 4th dec issue, which i didnt bought.

Archer
01 Dec 06,, 12:22
This validates all what I had said, almost word to word.

The secrecy, the development of a local C3I network, the presence of Prithvi technology and the use of a long range radar.

Joey, I request you or anyone else to *not* link this thread to other forums as well, as I dont want my IT subscription to be under a cloud or have hassles re: the same. This is meant for WAB alone.

No offense intended to anyone. :)





The New Guardian

India unveils an all new anti-ballistic missile expected to be the fore-runner of a sophisticated air defence system to thwart, among other threats, a Pakistani nuclear weapons attack



By Raj Chengappa


PICTURE SPEAK


MYSTERY MISSILE: The interceptor lifting off from Orissa


It looks like the Prithvi and even flies like one, but that's where the semblance ends. On November 27, not just India but the world got to know the difference after the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) unveiled a brand new missile, said to be a precursor to an advanced national air defence system.
The test was short but decisive. At 10.15 on a blustery winter morning off the east coast of Orissa, a conventional Prithvi missile posing as an enemy weapon was launched. Within seconds after its take-off, a sophisticated, long-range radar picked up the signals, analysed its flight path and sent an electronic command to an interceptor missile stationed at Wheeler Island. Almost immediately, the interceptor codenamed pad01 lifted off with a roar and plume of smoke. Travelling at five times the speed of sound, it rapidly closed in on the incoming Prithvi. Two minutes later and after some mid-course corrections, pad01 detonated its proximity fuse at a height of 50 km above the Earth. Both the missiles exploded in a ball of gas and the debris fell harmlessly into the Bay of Bengal.

Given its height-known in scientific parlance as exoatmospheric, or outside the Earth's atmosphere-there was no way scientists could either see or even hear the bang. Instead, they sat huddled inside the mission control room watching the entire sequence on a radar.

Almost out of a James Bond flick, the two blips on the screen closed in on each other rapidly and on touching, exploded in a shower of dots. Soon after the launch, DRDO's chief controller for missiles and the programme director for air defence systems, Dr V.K. Saraswat, told INDIA TODAY: "This test signals India's entry into the area of sophisticated and complex missile defence technology."

Several major quantum leaps in technology had to be achieved by India to do it. Anti-ballistic missile (ABM) systems require highly accurate radars capable of tracking incoming warheads from a greater distance. Before pad01 was developed, India had a radar detection capability of 100 km. For the air defence system, DRDO claims to have "jointly developed" a radar capable of tracking high-speed missiles at a distance of over 1,000 km. They are not as yet willing to reveal identities of the key agencies that collaborated with them for its development.

The interceptor missile, too, had to be designed and built from scratch. Its first stage is similar to that of the Prithvi and uses its liquid fuel engine. But for the second-stage 'kill vehicle', a powerful solid motor was developed apart from divert thrusters that gives it a high degree of manoeuvrability. It makes the missile a metre longer than the nine-m Prithvi. The interceptor is also equipped with terminal homing guidance system with an RF (radar frequency) seeker to detect targets at long range of low radar cross-section and travelling at high speeds. As important was the development of a communications network by Bharat Electronics to integrate the radars and the interceptors with the mission control centre.

The test did catch strategic experts by surprise. That's because the country's newest air defence system is being developed under a thick cloak of secrecy with the programme remaining unlisted. Saraswat, who was the Prithvi mission director, was given full charge of the project five years ago. The applause, though, has been muted. As retired Air Vice-Marshal Kapil Kak, joint director, Centre for Air Power Studies, said: "There is no doubt that this is an achievement if India has developed some kind of interceptor missile system. But we are also a long way to establishing a minimal anti-ballistic missile capability. What has been done is a proof of concept."

ABMs systems, like the one India tested, have been a subject of raging controversy among strategic circles. These were developed to destroy incoming ballistic missiles carrying both nuclear and conventional warheads primarily because till then there was no counter to them. Initially, only the US and the erstwhile Soviet Union invested in such counters. But given its prohibitive costs and also its propensity to intensify the arms race, both nations entered a treaty in 1972 severely limiting their capability to develop such missiles.

It was only after the Cold War, when Washington saw with growing concern a number of nations, including North Korea and Iran, developing missile capabilities, that it decided to build a national missile defence system. Now the US plans to build an array of radars capable of accurately tracking missile launches at long ranges and then launching interceptor missiles to kill them long before they touch target. Yet in the US, a great deal of scepticism is voiced by experts who question whether such a missile shield would truely be effective or worth the enormous costs involved.

For India to move down the road and develop a defence shield of some credibility and reliability to thwart Pakistani missiles among others, it would have to invest in over a dozen long-range radars capable of tracking a range of weapon systems. These would help detect any incoming missile from major threat zones. It would then have to develop and test a whole battery of interceptors that would be an effective counter to such threats. Also, with other nations constantly developing counters to ABMs, including equipping missiles with multiple warheads to confuse interceptors, perfecting such systems is a constant technological struggle. As Saraswat put it: "We should be able to handle anything that is thrown at us."

The costs could be steep. To the credit of Indian scientists though, they have dared to explore the frontiers of missile technology. With last week's test, India has become the youngest member of a select band of nations-the US, Russia and Israel-who have the capability of developing missile defence systems.

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 12:40
I'm sure the liquid fuel will be replaced by solid fuel later as its not viable to use liquid fuel...and Archer i didnt got your IM i'll be online from 12 am, please do IM me ;).

Archer
01 Dec 06,, 12:51
I'm sure the liquid fuel will be replaced by solid fuel later as its not viable to use liquid fuel...and Archer i didnt got your IM i'll be online from 12 am, please do IM me ;).

I emailed you to your hotmail account. Reply to the mail, my comp is on the fritz and wont let me install msn or ym IMs.

Anoop C
01 Dec 06,, 13:35
Archer,

A few questions, if you don't mind.

1. The Chengappa article says that the first stage of the interceptor was liquid-fuelled. Does that rule out the Arrow theory?

2. It also says that a proximity fuse was used. So it's not a hit-to-kill vehicle as was believed on BR?

3. The photographs of the collision posted on the first thread on BR were taken after the debris of the impact re-entered the atmosphere? What about the spatial spread of the point of impact - does the point of converge maintain its integrity as the plume spreads? I ask because the Chengappa article mentions that the impact could not be observed visually or audibly due to the altitude of interception. So either the photographs were taken by satellite (in which case couldn't the collision also be observed real-time, contrary to what the article says?) or the photographs were taken from the ground after the debris re-entered the atmosphere, which leads to the question about the spatial integrity of the plumes.

Thanks.

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 13:54
Yups if you saw carefully the video we only see prithvi moving up then the white smoke of aftermath collision.(means while falling down)
hehe....

kams
01 Dec 06,, 16:46
Archer,

A few questions, if you don't mind.

If I may answer,

1. Definately not an Arrow, also means that this is not the final configuration. A solid fuel missile is a must. All the 'Prithvi' tests for the last year or so may actually tests of interceptor.

2. Its not Hit-to Kill, but uses blast effect to destroy the missile.

3. Now I have trouble with explanation that actual interception being beyond visible range, may be to naked eye but definately not to a telescope or even to a normal TV camera. There are numerous pics of Arrow interception (although height is interception not given). Even the there are pics of booster rockets separating from the shuttle..so its not the height which is the reason.

Added later,

In case of space shuttle, the booster rockets separate at a height of 45 Km and here is pic of it taken with a normal canon with 500 mm lens.

space shuttle (http://www.pbase.com/dguitarnut/image/63042671)

highsea
01 Dec 06,, 17:23
MYSTERY MISSILE: The interceptor lifting off from Orissa
How about posting the picture? So far all we've seen is the target missile.

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 17:24
Then as said it is "cutted" out, anyways second steps should be to get HTK done by any means and stuffs, nonetheless this thing is a good 3-4 years away from completion.

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 17:28
yep archer isnt the pic in tht magazine? y dont u save it seperately and post. i doubt if there will be any clear cut picture as of now.

Anoop C
01 Dec 06,, 19:25
How about posting the picture? So far all we've seen is the target missile.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=2688&start=0

Scroll down to Gerard's post on the first page of the thread to see the picture and its caption. The original report in India Today requires subscription which I don't have.

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 19:29
Here also http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=2688&start=40

Posted by Jagan.

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 19:57
There is some problems in the pic from BR [according to me].. anyways lets some time more till the magazine comes out.

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 19:58
The missile in the truck is the second stage[or full] of it highsea... thanks.
but thats definitely the thing!! as its not prithvi and have a modofied nose cone etc.

kams
01 Dec 06,, 20:44
Highsea, Archer, Anoop, Joey

Austin at BR was kind enough to send me a scan of India Today article, which has the pic of Inteceptor (It is Prithvi based, same as the other pic), If you guys are interested please give email address. I don't want to post the scan here.

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 21:06
oh yes baby, check the Email in PM.

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 21:43
There are still some articles from years back to show this has been under going work......;)
awesome pic kams.

kams
01 Dec 06,, 21:48
There are still some articles from years back to show this has been under going work......;)
awesome pic kams.


I think you just won $50:biggrin: .

Archer
01 Dec 06,, 22:33
Archer,

A few questions, if you don't mind.

My pleasure!


1. The Chengappa article says that the first stage of the interceptor was liquid-fuelled. Does that rule out the Arrow theory?

Pretty much. I believe Dr Saraswat and his team decided to use the technology that they were most comfortable with. As Arun S has pointed out on BR, the Prithvi's liquid fuel engines allow more precise control of the vehicle, its logistical disadvantages apart.


2. It also says that a proximity fuse was used. So it's not a hit-to-kill vehicle as was believed on BR?

A hit to kill vehicle would be the hardest task- at this point, we dont have enough information, bar the fact that the third stage is a dedicated kill stage, with the active seeker.


3. The photographs of the collision posted on the first thread on BR were taken after the debris of the impact re-entered the atmosphere? What about the spatial spread of the point of impact - does the point of converge maintain its integrity as the plume spreads? I ask because the Chengappa article mentions that the impact could not be observed visually or audibly due to the altitude of interception. So either the photographs were taken by satellite (in which case couldn't the collision also be observed real-time, contrary to what the article says?) or the photographs were taken from the ground after the debris re-entered the atmosphere, which leads to the question about the spatial integrity of the plumes.

I dont think the photos were by satellite. For instance, the NDTV footage shows people looking up, and observing the debris contrails- others on BR have pointed out that on a (relatively) clear day, it is possible to observe the same. The thing is that even if you sought to observe it visually, if the missile had missed and exploded, and you saw its debris- you could be mistaken as thinking that it might have done its job, but theres no guarantee of the same.

Hence, the need for a dedicated radar to monitor the trajectory of your own interceptor (so you can later point out when which stage failed, or whether control was shaky- say an erratic trajectory- if it were to do so and then begin rectification)- and to observe what happens to the target- that apart, the radar would need to provide the precise data for midcourse correction to the interceptor.

Archer
01 Dec 06,, 22:33
I think you just won $50:biggrin: .

:biggrin: Hows that money going to be spent?

"Bartender a shot for all my friends o'er here". Hic! :biggrin:

Archer
01 Dec 06,, 22:39
The missile in the truck is the second stage[or full] of it highsea... thanks.
but thats definitely the thing!! as its not prithvi and have a modofied nose cone etc.

The India Today picture shows PAD01- if the magazine had not explicitly id'ed the specifics, it would be easily mistaken for an everyday Prithvi.

It has a radome (the dark portion at the tip) and is said to be 1 mtr longer than a regular Prithvi.

I am still not too happy about using a liquid fuelled first stage, and I am sure folks will crib about it later- but for now, its time to felicitate the dudes on their hard work.

Theres probably a lot more work ahead, but a lot of the stuff has been developed or is available- radar, C3I network, mission planning systems etc, plus RF seekers, midcourse datalink- these are the umpteen "small things" that India sought to develop expertise on via its IGMDP and the payoff comes in follow on projects like this.

As I mentioned earlier, the higher project amount allocated 400 Million $ is still peanuts by international standards for a program of this magnitude, but since they would have reused a lot of stuff developed/ used for other projects, that would cut down costs. But I am sure they have taken considerable assistance for subsystems for the system- the radar is mentioned, I presume even the RF seeker in the kill vehicle etc would have int'l assistance.

System integration would have been a pain.

I couldnt care where they source some of the hardware from as long as it works, and we have source code access to the whole thingmajig.

And the LCA-PV-3 just took to the air as well.

Not a bad year.

northface
01 Dec 06,, 22:43
The very idea of his bet with a teenager. It just shows that his seniority on this board does not translate to objectivity in his statements. Poor taste and poor objectivity. I did'nt like it one bit. Am sorry if it hurts, but that is my opinion and it is valid in front of the compiled evidence that have been posted objectively by so many Indians, desipite ridicule, sarcasm, and distaste. Please grow up folks. If this is not an equal opportunity forum with deference to laid out regulations on the board..you can have me out. :frown:

northface
01 Dec 06,, 22:46
PV3 in the air???

I just checked i don't have any news on that....

Archer
01 Dec 06,, 22:49
Dude, its cool. Be a sport, -a certain level of skepticism is to be expected. This is a very long drawn process, and its not like everyone knows its been in the works for years. And nor is India the US or the Soviet Union, with a long history of successful SAM development. Both countries have spent billions on far more complex systems as well, and have a well established industry to back it.

I agree some of his comments were in bad taste:
Joey, I don't have to underestimate anybody. I know what India's capabilities are. This just isn't there, no matter how hard people try to spin it. This is a quid-pro-quo of the nuke deal. The Arrow is a MCTR Class 1 missile, so no one is going public about the exchange. Instead it is being sold as some "secret" missile developed by DRDO. A story only an Indian could believe.

But theres no point in bickering over it and keeping at it; some of the replies to him on that score were not in the "make friends" category either, lol.

Besides: Theres a long way to go before this system matures and we need to wait and watch what happens next.

Expect a lot of bad press though.

highsea
01 Dec 06,, 22:52
All I've seen so far is a Prithvi. Where's the pics of the interceptor, which is claimed to be the second stage? Kams, I hope you can offer something better than what is posted on BR. A pic of a Prithvi proves nada, kids.

Joey- we'll send our $$ to Tophatter (when he gets back) or another Mod. When there is some objective confirmation, the Mod can determine who won the bet.

highsea
01 Dec 06,, 22:58
Archer- Let me get this right- Now you're claiming that a ballistic missile is the interceptor???

As I said, I will wait for independant confirmation- it shouldn't be long coming.

As to Northface's whining- you're breaking our hearts, junior.

Archer
01 Dec 06,, 23:01
PV3 in the air???

I just checked i don't have any news on that....

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=2696

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 23:02
Did Kams send you the Article?If not Please send the Email, That Article is not posted in BR.

I'll send the $ highsea, however a small issue cuz i use only debit card and no CC/Paypal, I can transfer it with E-Banking to any of the Indian buddies here who has paypal and he can send the same to mod i guess.

Archer I've confirmed from some classified source this is home grown.There is assistance in Radars C3I but definitely not from US.

Archer
01 Dec 06,, 23:03
All I've seen so far is a Prithvi. Where's the pics of the interceptor, which is claimed to be the second stage? Kams, I hope you can offer something better than what is posted on BR. A pic of a Prithvi proves nada, kids.

As mentioned previously, the print edition (Kams should have that) has PAD01 on the first page. It looks pretty Prithvi like, but Raj Chengappa (http://www.stimson.org/southasia/vf.cfm?ID=49) mentions the same and details the differences.

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 23:07
and highsea if you still dont believe after seeing the article with pic i dunno....cuz independent media has said the missile was named as PAD01 and its same written on it.

Also what is prithvis serial number to start with the nose cone also looks diff isnt it?

Anoop C
01 Dec 06,, 23:07
All I've seen so far is a Prithvi. Where's the pics of the interceptor, which is claimed to be the second stage?.. A pic of a Prithvi proves nada, kids.

I'm confused. Would the second stage not be part of the air defense Prithvi (not the target one)? The caption in the report mentions that this is the interceptor, nor the target Prithvi. Are you asking for photos of the second stage after the first stage has fallen off? I am not sure they are available yet or even if they will be.

So, if the caption is true i.e. that the picture shown in the India Today report is that of the air defense missile, not the target missile, does that not confirm that it was not the Arrow that was tested?

Archer, thanks for the clarifications.

kams
01 Dec 06,, 23:08
Highsea,
Check mail. (Sorry for the delay. was taking a nap:redface: )

Archer
01 Dec 06,, 23:08
Archer- Let me get this right- Now you're claiming that a ballistic missile is the interceptor???

No; If you go back and read http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showpost.php?p=303436&postcount=194.


It looks like the Prithvi and even flies like one, but that's where the semblance ends.


The interceptor missile, too, had to be designed and built from scratch. Its first stage is similar to that of the Prithvi and uses its liquid fuel engine. But for the second-stage 'kill vehicle', a powerful solid motor was developed apart from divert thrusters that gives it a high degree of manoeuvrability. It makes the missile a metre longer than the nine-m Prithvi. The interceptor is also equipped with terminal homing guidance system with an RF (radar frequency) seeker to detect targets at long range of low radar cross-section and travelling at high speeds.

They have used some design attributes from the Prithvi for the first stage- and the overall interceptor looks similar to a Prithvi, which is actually shown in the article.

As I said, without the information about it- nobody would have given it a second glance, and just taken it to be a Prithvi.



As I said, I will wait for independant confirmation- it shouldn't be long coming.

There can be no "independent confirmation" given the degree of secrecy associated with the program. The information released now is likely to be the most that is available for the next three-four years or the like.

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 23:08
Another Pic Tronic posted a weird Prithvi type Missile which IS DEFINITELY NOT PRITHVI in a TEL Mounted.

Plus there is the Solid motor in DRDO's Website which has Dia same as Prithvi so get fitted in similar type missiles.

Archer
01 Dec 06,, 23:12
Another Pic Tronic posted a weird Prithvi type Missile which IS DEFINITELY NOT PRITHVI in a TEL Mounted.

Can you post it here?


Plus there is the Solid motor in DRDO's Website which has Dia same as Prithvi so get fitted in similar type missiles.

That booster has apparently not been used on this project.

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 23:16
India's New Anti-Ballastic Missile SAM

Trials of long-range SAMs by year-end

Special Correspondent

HYDERABAD: Indian defence scientists have embarked on developing long-range (100 km) surface to air missiles (SAMs), the flight trials of which are expected to begin by the year-end.

The missiles with multi-platform systems can be launched from ship and ground. The propulsion, control guidance and other systems for the "hit-to-kill" missiles were being built, according to V.K.Saraswat, Director, Research Centre Imarat, a DRDO institution.

He told reporters here on Wednesday that the development phase of long- range SAMs was expected to be over in two to three years. Feasibility studies were also on for developing short-range helicopter-launch anti-ship missiles.

At present in the SAM class of missile, India has medium range Akash, which has a range of about 27 km.

Apart from SAMs, a long-range Air Defence System was also being developed. Once deployed, the radars of such a system would have multiple target tracking capacity and could simultaneously track 200 aircraft up to a distance of 400 km.

Predicting that future wars would be network-centric and not platform-centric, he said the coordination of all platforms in a network would be required. India had an excellent command, control and communication network which was totally encrypted and secure.




Exerpt from Defense News Feb 28 05

Indians Divided on Air Defense
Weigh Domestic, U.S. Solutions

By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI
More capable air defense has been a top government
priority here for several years. To meet the Army’s
future requirements, the DRDO diverted some funds from
its missile program in January 2003 to begin
developing its own air defense system capable of
tracking ballistic missiles.

The Research Centre Imarat (RCI) in Hyderabad, a
premier defense laboratory that produces the Agni and
Prithvi missile systems and is under the
administrative control of DRDO, has been developing a
system since early 2003 that would have a range of 100
kilometers.


A DRDO scientist said the previous National Democratic
Alliance government was so impressed with the RCI
proposal that $444.4 million was allotted in June 2003
to complete the indigenous air defense system by 2008.


Vijay Kumar Saraswat, RCI director, said Feb 10 that
the system RCI is working on will be superior to the
Patriot-2 and Russia’s S-300 PMU, and will be ready to
enter service by 2008. Saraswat claimed the system
will have a mobile launcher carrying three
surface-to-air, solid-fuel missiles, equipped with
directional warheads.

He said the unnamed system will begin flight trials in
mid-2006. RCI will carry out about 10 flights before
deploying it with the Indian defense forces.

The DRDO scientist said the indigenous air defense
system will have a mission control system that will
conduct target acquisition, classification and track
estimation, among other functions.

He said another major element is the active
phased-array radar system purchased from Israel.
Called Sword Fish, the system was purchased in early
2004 for $50 million and is undergoing trials at Hasan
in Karnataka state.

Once the air defense system is operational, the DRDO
scientist said, RCI will integrate it with other
defense systems via satellite links and a secure
digital data link that will enable it to track and
transmit data up to a range of 1,000 kilometers.





'India developing ballistic missiles defence to counter threats'
BANGALORE FEB. 9.2003: India is developing ballistic missile defence technologies to counter "threats from its adversaries" and has no Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) programme, a key official of a DRDO laboratory involved in weapon system programmes, said today.
"We are now trying to develop ballistic missile defence system like hypersonic class of missiles and long-range detection and tracking radars'', Director of Hyderabad-based Research Centre Imarat (RCI), V.K. Saraswat, told PTI here. "We are going to concentrate on that," he said.
"In offensive weapons (missiles), we have almost come to whatever needed by the country. Now we are looking at defensive weapons," said Mr. Sarswat, who spoke last evening at an international seminar, organised as part of Aero India 2003, an international aerospace exposition here.
According to him, with the defensive weapons under development, the nation would be able to counter "incoming missile threats". "You know, we have threats. Because our adversaries have (such missiles), we have to develop that," he said and also indicated that India was working on a layered defence system.
DRDO officials said such a system included many technologies, including using satellites for communications and a unique two-layer defensive line using surface-to-air missile for any incoming ballistic missile attack. But he categorically said that New Delhi had no ICBM programme and asserted that the country faced no ICBM threat.(HINDU)(AEROINDIA)



2003

Plans for missile interceptors unveiled
V.K. Saraswat, Director, RCI, DRDO, said missile defence would be given impetus: programmes included developing missile interceptors.

Dr. Swarswat

Another initiative is the Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD). We are at the technology development stage and a target missile has been launched with success. It requires a network of command, computer, control, communication and intelligence network. It is a bit way off, but we are firmly on route and hope to convert it into a deployable system in four-five years.



These are some articles i digged ...............

Archer
01 Dec 06,, 23:19
This could be the missile, though the launcher is the same as a regular Prithvi

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showpost.php?p=302530&postcount=140

A SS-250
http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wmd/ballistic/ballistic/prithvi_ss-250_001.jpg

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 23:25
Edited posted above

Dude those above articles are highly clear......range time they said will begin trials in mid 2006 etc etc......

joey2
01 Dec 06,, 23:38
IMO another clue the missile on india todays pic if you look carefully P and A is visible "othewr side" written means PAD01.
All Prithvi are Written as Prithvi

Archer
02 Dec 06,, 00:01
PAD = Prithvi Air Defence.

The exercise was the Prithvi Air Defence Exercise.

highsea
02 Dec 06,, 00:03
Its first stage is similar to that of the Prithvi and uses its liquid fuel engine. But for the second-stage 'kill vehicle', a powerful solid motor was developed apart from divert thrusters that gives it a high degree of manoeuvrability.So where's the second stage???

They have used some design attributes from the Prithvi for the first stage- and the overall interceptor looks similar to a Prithvi, which is actually shown in the article.Dude, who are you kidding. That pic is a Prithvi. Not, as previously described:
"It is a new missile and not part of country's Integrated Guided Missile programme," top DRDO officials said on the condition of anonymity.
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showpost.php?p=301229&postcount=14


There can be no "independent confirmation" given the degree of secrecy associated with the program. The information released now is likely to be the most that is available for the next three-four years or the like.Doubt that. Once the program is made public, information about it inevitably comes out. No way to prevent it.

For all I know those pics are the target missile, in which case the nosecone would have transponders/telemetry electronics to aid in the test. It's sure as hell not any two stage rocket as previously claimed, and it's most clearly a Prithvi, even if the nosecone is slightly elongated.

So we seem to be going from a fully indiginous "all new" ABM system to a modified Prithvi with who-knows who's seeker and electronics, and calling it an ABM system.

The bar seems to be lowering...

Archer
02 Dec 06,, 00:12
So where's the second stage???
Dude, who are you kidding. That pic is a Prithvi. Not, as previously described:

I am not kidding anyone; I have posted the information available- which ties in what the author described. If you have a problem with it, take it up with the author- his email id was posted earlier. Dont bring your ego in to the discussion and kindly keep it civilized.


So where's the second stage???

The extended portion of the missile indicates that the second stage is part of the missile.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6234/originalprithvipm5.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=originalprithvipm5.jpg)

Source:http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/missile/naic/006-2.jpg

Compare with:
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/5849/abm11dp2.th.jpg (http://img369.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abm11dp2.jpg), using the Orange strip as the measure.


""It is a new missile and not part of country's Integrated Guided Missile programme," top DRDO officials said on the condition of anonymity.
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sho...9&postcount=14:

..which is but obvious. The IGMDP only consists of five programs.


Doubt that. Once the program is made public, information about it inevitably comes out. No way to prevent it.

How much do the general public or rather, informed professionals know of India's nuke warhead designs or similar stratgeic items? If this program remains unlisted, even the usual reliance on open source data garnered from audits and the like would fall by the wayside.


For all I know those pics are the target missile, in which case the nosecone would have transponders/telemetry electronics to aid in the test. It's sure as hell not any two stage rocket as previously claimed, and it's most clearly a Prithvi, even if the nosecone is slightly elongated.

The article mentions it as the interceptor vehicle.


So we seem to be going from a fully indiginous "all new" ABM system to a modified Prithvi with who-knows who's seeker and electronics, and calling it an ABM system.

You seem to be clutching at straws here. The article clearly acknowledges the existence of foreign assistance, which is besides the point and so have I repeatedly. You do seem to have a rather obvious NIH issue here; the rest of us couldnt give a damn about where what component came from as long as it works, and the critical aspects remain in Indian control, such as source code access.


Lol, the bar is lowering.....

Your comments indeed show the same. Stay off the snide comments, and you will be extended the same courtesy in turn.

highsea
02 Dec 06,, 00:29
Lol. It has nothing to do with NIH- I don't suffer from Indian Inferiority Complex. I could care less. It's the hyperbole and exagerrations I disagree with. If you said you put a Trishul with a new seeker on top of a Prithvi, at least that would be believable wrt the attempt.

But you show us a single stage rocket, obviously not a two-stage one as described by the "anonymous DRDO official", obviously a Prithvi variant, not a new missile. And you call it a two-stage rocket, and you say it has "design atttributes" similar to a Prithvi. Tell me, is an airframe a "design attribute"? How about the motor? Control Surfaces?

It seems all you have to do in India to build a new rocket is switch nosecones. :rolleyes:

So who's lowering the bar here, hmmm?

India's capabilities wrt SAM systems is well documented. If indeed you aimed two ballistic missiles at each other and managed to get them to hit, that's a neat trick. But it's hardly a functional ABM system, even in concept.

Tronic
02 Dec 06,, 00:49
Archer, is that second pic in your post the one Kams sent you?

kams
02 Dec 06,, 00:50
Looking at the pics, it appears that Nose Cone or Kill vehicle is extended, other dimensions appear similar to those of Prithvi.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2262/abm3ku7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Now if you look at the above illustration in the India Today article, there are 3 stages (including the nose cone/kill vehicle). If the second stage is solid fuel booster, then the first stage motor has to be modified substantially to fit in just 1 meter extra space.

Archer
02 Dec 06,, 00:50
Lol. It has nothing to do with NIH- I don't suffer from Indian Inferiority Complex. I could care less. It's the hyperbole and exagerrations I disagree with.

Wonderful. All out in the open. You have no issues in making snide comments, but when called on them react with outrage. Put a hat on it dude, the rest of us couldnt give a damn. You were arguing with a kid, who was excitable- the rest of us kept our heads on straight and conversed properly.


If you said you put a Trishul with a new seeker on top of a Prithvi, at least that would be believable wrt the attempt.

You have to be kidding; the Trishul is an entirely different missile and is meant for an entirely different purpose.


But you show us a single stage rocket, obviously not a two-stage one as described by the "anonymous DRDO official", obviously a Prithvi variant, not a new missile. And you call it a two-stage rocket, and you say it has "design atttributes" similar to a Prithvi. Tell me, is an airframe a "design attribute"? How about the motor? Control Surfaces?

How do you know it is a single stage rocket? I have had two folks with the relevant experience, quals/ etc.who concur with the article- and one probably knows far more about the program than can specify; if you dont, thats that but that remains your opinion and is hardly fact.

Hence, if you have access to the internal schema to make your statements conclusive, I'd be glad to see it.

As regards the rest - go back in the thread and read it, there are several instances wherein I have mentioned the likelihood of the Prithvi technology being used and the article mentions them explicitly which I have pointed out thrice already.

This is hilarious. First you were insistent that it was an Arrow and that DRDO was lying when it called it a Prithvi Air Defence Exercise. Then you said that I called it a Ballistic missile when it used Prithvi components. And now you are telling me that its a Prithvi?

C'mon..



It seems all you have to do in India to build a new rocket is switch nosecones. :rolleyes:

So who's lowering the bar here, hmmm?

Oh please. Seems all the US has to do to launch a space program is to get the Nazis to do it for them.

Are we done with the insults?


India's capabilities wrt SAM systems is well documented. If indeed you aimed two ballistic missiles at each other and managed to get them to hit, that's a neat trick. But it's hardly a functional ABM system, even in concept.

The article says its a precursor to an operational ATBM system and in my posts previously, I have repeatedly mentioned that its but one test, and it will be a long time before its operational. Clutching at straws again?

Archer
02 Dec 06,, 00:51
Archer, is that second pic in your post the one Kams sent you?

Its the first page. I didnt get it from Kams but from someone else, PM your email and I'll send it across.

Tronic
02 Dec 06,, 00:51
Lol. It has nothing to do with NIH- I don't suffer from Indian Inferiority Complex. I could care less. It's the hyperbole and exagerrations I disagree with. If you said you put a Trishul with a new seeker on top of a Prithvi, at least that would be believable wrt the attempt.

But you show us a single stage rocket, obviously not a two-stage one as described by the "anonymous DRDO official", obviously a Prithvi variant, not a new missile. And you call it a two-stage rocket, and you say it has "design atttributes" similar to a Prithvi. Tell me, is an airframe a "design attribute"? How about the motor? Control Surfaces?

It seems all you have to do in India to build a new rocket is switch nosecones. :rolleyes:

So who's lowering the bar here, hmmm?

India's capabilities wrt SAM systems is well documented. If indeed you aimed two ballistic missiles at each other and managed to get them to hit, that's a neat trick. But it's hardly a functional ABM system, even in concept.

lol, why do I hear your nerves popping?

Archer
02 Dec 06,, 01:00
Looking at the pics, it appears that Nose Cone or Kill vehicle is extended, other dimensions appear similar to those of Prithvi.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2262/abm3ku7.jpg

Now if you look at the above illustration in the India Today article, there are 3 stages (including the nose cone/kill vehicle). If the second stage is solid fuel booster, then the first stage motor has to be modified substantially to fit in just 1 meter extra space.

Kams thats an artists representation. Its a mistake, the article speaks of two stages, not three. If you look at the image of PAD01, everything above the orange strip is the "kill vehicle".

The artists representation has broken the Prithvi itself into two stages. And then a kill vehicle, which is incorrect, imo.

kams
02 Dec 06,, 01:02
if any one wants IT article pm email.

kams
02 Dec 06,, 01:03
Kams thats an artists representation. Its a mistake, the article speaks of two stages, not three. If you look at the image of PAD01, everything above the orange strip is the "kill vehicle".

The artists representation has broken the Prithvi itself into two stages. And then a kill vehicle, which is incorrect, imo.

Looks like that. Its so confusing..that kind of mistakes don't do any good to veracity of the article. At the same time Chengappa is not known to make that kind of mistakes.

Archer
02 Dec 06,, 01:12
The artist has confused the description. The article speaks of a second stage vehicle with a new booster, he broke that up into two stages and then divided the main prithvi into a dual stage missile.

Archer
02 Dec 06,, 01:32
Got to go work now, cheers!

highsea
02 Dec 06,, 02:00
...And now you are telling me that its a Prithvi?No, I am saying the pictures you are posting are of Prithvi. I make no claims that it was the interceptor.

...Are we done with the insults?Shall I post the list of your own snide remarks towards me?

Lol. My only offense was to express some doubt based on India's proven track record and the initial reports which gave the parameters of the test. It's you guys who immediately started in with the personal attacks.

Kams- thanks for the email- I will paraphrase my reply here:

The Prithvi is very much like the second stage of an SA-2. I don't see a two stage rocket in any of these pics. The reports say that this launch used a Prithvi first stage, and based on that, one would expect to see something perched on top in place of the nosecone, similar to the Arrow2 configuration. Alternatively we could use a booster mounted beneath, but we don't see that either, and it would mean the Prithvi was the second stage, not the first. So where is the second stage?

We know that the Prithvi doesn't separate right below the fins like the diagram here shows, and there is no seam visible where a booster would separate from the missile. Nor is there any logical reason to doctor the photo and then say it was there. I cannot see any maneuvering nozzles in the upper portion, though it's a little blurry- that may be intentional. The proportions in the diagram are not true to a liquid fueled rocket, since there is insufficient room for the fuel.

The length from the top of the fins to the tip of the nosecone does not look any different than the standard Prithvi shown here on BR:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Images/Prithvi1.jpg

If it's really a meter longer, it should be pretty obvious, since that's about 25% of the length from fin to tip. I don't have time to scale the pics properly right now, I will try to do it later.

I still think there is a lot to this story we aren't hearing, which some posters seem to interpret as me calling every Indian scientist and engineer, his mom, kids, and pets a bunch of lying thieves or something.

However, all it really means is that I think there is a lot we are not being told, and given what we have seen in the past, there are many reasons to be sceptical.

Now I'm done for the weekend, and I may just take a little more time than that, given the pathetic nature of this discussion, which seems to revolve around personal attacks and schoolyard behavior rather than reasoned discussion.

kams
02 Dec 06,, 02:11
Highsea,

Is it possible to do a image analysis of the pic to calculate the dimensions? I thought you need an object of a known dimension in the pic for calibration.

Archer
02 Dec 06,, 02:44
No, I am saying the pictures you are posting are of Prithvi. I make no claims that it was the interceptor.

As I said previously, that is your opinion which you are welcome to have. However, without the internal schema we really cant be sure at this point.


Shall I post the list of your own snide remarks towards me?

You are welcome to do so. You started the process, so you received the same in turn.


Lol. My only offense was to express some doubt based on India's proven track record and the initial reports which gave the parameters of the test. It's you guys who immediately started in with the personal attacks.

Sorry, it dont fly. Your initial comments speak for themselves in terms of tone and tenor. I could post the specific ones, but there really is no end to it. If you flame- subtly or otherwise, folks will respond- so why bother, if the discussion is to be civilized.


Now I'm done for the weekend, and I may just take a little more time than that, given the pathetic nature of this discussion, which seems to revolve around personal attacks and schoolyard behavior rather than reasoned discussion.

Pot, meet kettle.

Anyways, moving to the technical issues:


Kams- thanks for the email- I will paraphrase my reply here:

The Prithvi is very much like the second stage of an SA-2. I don't see a two stage rocket in any of these pics. The reports say that this launch used a Prithvi first stage, and based on that, one would expect to see something perched on top in place of the nosecone, similar to the Arrow2 configuration.

Not necessarily. The article clearly states that the rocket uses the Prithvi *propulsion*. It does not say it uses the entire Prithvi, of which the grey metal portion is mostly the warhead. There have also been reports that the Prithvi III has been tested, and is a two stage missile.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Prithvi.html [Reference 10]

It does not even say whether it is the exact same thing, whether the two gimballed engines have been scaled down or scaled up, or anything of the sort or whether the fuel payload has been reduced or increased, which could actually give the designers some more volume to play around with.


Alternatively we could use a booster mounted beneath, but we don't see that either, and it would mean the Prithvi was the second stage, not the first. [U]So where is the second stage?


The second stage could be above the orange strip. The metal portion clearly shows seams. (India Today picture of PAD-01)

http://img369.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abm11dp2.jpg


We know that the Prithvi doesn't separate right below the fins like the diagram here shows, and there is no seam visible where a booster would separate from the missile. Nor is there any logical reason to doctor the photo and then say it was there. I cannot see any maneuvering nozzles in the upper portion, though it's a little blurry- that may be intentional. The proportions in the diagram are not true to a liquid fueled rocket, since there is insufficient room for the fuel.

Correct; please dont compare the image to the artists rep; as discussed previously, the artists representation does not appear to be accurate. If anyone knows otherwise, they are welcome to correct me.


The length from the top of the fins to the tip of the nosecone does not look any different than the standard Prithvi shown here on BR:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MISSILES/Images/Prithvi1.jpg

If it's really a meter longer, it should be pretty obvious, since that's about 25% of the length from fin to tip. I don't have time to scale the pics properly right now, I will try to do it later.


The size differential is a good point, but it cannot give the whole picture. For one, we need to know the internal schema to get an idea of the size of the Kill vehicle, and if it could replace the entire warhead/ non propulsion part of the missile.


I still think there is a lot to this story we aren't hearing, which some posters seem to interpret as me calling every Indian scientist and engineer, his mom, kids, and pets a bunch of lying thieves or something.

The Indian posters have only responded to your comments in similar vein. If you can keep it reasonable, without snide comments thrown in amongst otherwise valid commentary- am sure everyone would respond correspondingly.


However, all it really means is that I think there is a lot we are not being told, and given what we have seen in the past, there are many reasons to be sceptical.

I agree, which is why I said you cannot get the independent confirmation or conclusive evidence, either ways.

It all boils down to opinion in the end- you can state that its impossible, someone else will say it is. And the debate cannot be concluded unless you look inside the missile, which is pretty unlikely.

Even the artists representation in the article, I daresay, is half baked.

Archer
02 Dec 06,, 03:03
I have two emails, which I regrettably cant share- from guys who also have substantial aero/ real world experience. They stated that it is possible, to do what the article describes. So, if there is anyway to prove that its impossible or extremely unlikely to fit in a kill vehicle in that size and volume, it would be a valid point.
Also please consider the test conditions, meant to represent a missile threat in the TBM range, which would make the engineering challenge lesser.

Officer of Engineers
02 Dec 06,, 03:52
After years of PLA watching and getting royally screwed with everytime I see a new toy and then thinking things through based on that toy (J-9, J-11 (original, not the Su-27), J-12 are the most noticable toys). Even the most mundane thing, the AK-47, I've been waiting for the PLA to adopt that thing for over a decade and they still insisted on the SKS variant (to this day, I still don't know why), I've learned NOT to state a capaibility until I see regtimenal colours on those things.

It's alot easier that way. No matter what the technical skills of Indian scientists and engineers, the people who need to use these things are rocketeers/missileers. If you don't see them owning the thing, then it is alot of headaches and heartaches arguing their capabilities. Once you see regimental colours and watch how they train, then that will tell you what to expect.