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Aryan
04 Aug 04,, 20:25
51 terrorists be hanged: interior ministry

By Rauf Klasra

ISLAMABAD: The interior ministry has recommended immediate hanging of 51 terrorists given death penalties by Anti-Terrorist Courts (ATCs).

This would demoralise the terrorists and suicide bombers, the ministry believed.

Sources said the ministry has made it clear that non-execution of ATC sentences led to rise in suicide attacks on top government functionaries in the recent past. A total of 79 terrorists were convicted by the ATCs and 51 of them were awarded death penalties. But the cases were pending in higher courts as those convicted filed appeals against the decisions of ATCs.

Sources said this was a fresh reminder to the government about execution of 51 terrorists given death penalties. The ministry had sent such recommendations earlier also to boost moral of law enforcement agencies and ATC personnel.

The interior ministry wanted the law ministry to work closely with higher courts to get these cases cleared so that execution of the convicted murderers could be carried out. Sources said so far 30 terrorist groups have been eliminated by the law enforcement agencies during crackdown against terrorists after a wave of violence struck the country particularly the cities of Karachi and Quetta.

During the investigation, law-enforcement agencies came to know that out of 30 active terrorist groups, 15 were exclusively working on sectarian front. While the remaining 15 were involved in attacking western interests and law enforcement agencies.

But, the ministry officials said, the efforts of law enforcement agencies and ATCs were being wasted because all cases of convictions were lying with the higher appellate courts for final decision. They said under law higher courts are required to dispose of these appeals within a period of 30 days.

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2004-dai.../main/main8.htm

Bill
04 Aug 04,, 20:42
Hang 'em high.

raja khan
04 Aug 04,, 21:32
they should be made an example
they must be blowen up by bombs attached to their bodies

visioninthedark
04 Aug 04,, 22:57
finally ....

Aryan
04 Aug 04,, 23:21
they should be made an example
they must be blowen up by bombs attached to their bodies

No way, that isn't painful enough. I'm all in favour of a traditional hanging. Lets also not tie their arms and legs together so they can kick and scream a bit before the pigs die.

Bill
05 Aug 04,, 03:48
We could always have them drowned in pig fat...

Keep them out of paradise.

ChrisF202
05 Aug 04,, 04:00
We could always have them drowned in pig fat...

Keep them out of paradise.
Yes, like what Black Jack did in the Philiphines ... it is said that when they let the 51st terrorist go after seeing 50 of his brethen shot and downed in pigs fat that there was not a single Muslim terrorist attack in the world for 40 years.

Ray
05 Aug 04,, 04:36
Neat way to clear scum.

visioninthedark
05 Aug 04,, 16:23
We could always have them drowned in pig fat...

Keep them out of paradise.

whats with you M21 ...

I'm all for eliminating these scum ...

but your idea is plain old silly ... whoever told you this, is probably still sitting somewhere laughing himself silly that you believed his crap ...

I've already explained that this doesn't have any meaning ...


it don't matter whether you dip them in pig blood or smear them with pig manure ...

in Islam ... paradise is EARNED by DEEDS and not by whether you were "clean" when you died ...

man ... those terrorists are laughing at you for having believed their crappy story ... !!!

man .... your one fool if you believed those pig-fat story ...

Ray
05 Aug 04,, 18:02
whats with you M21 ...

I'm all for eliminating these scum ...

but your idea is plain old silly ... whoever told you this, is probably still sitting somewhere laughing himself silly that you believed his crap ...

I've already explained that this doesn't have any meaning ...


it don't matter whether you dip them in pig blood or smear them with pig manure ...

in Islam ... paradise is EARNED by DEEDS and not by whether you were "clean" when you died ...

man ... those terrorists are laughing at you for having believed their crappy story ... !!!

man .... your one fool if you believed those pig-fat story ...


What is this pig fat story? I haven't heard this.

This much I know that the Moslems and Jews think that pigs are unclean. I agree with them (especially if they are not farm bred).

I enjoy my bacon for breakfast and ham sandwitches. For Christ's sake, stop defiling pigs, lest I lose my appetite! ;)

Asim Aquil
05 Aug 04,, 19:33
Mostly whatever's been forbidden in Islam has turned out to be harmful for humans medically. So who knows.... Some pig meat made you crazy? No I think those were the cows. Not sure.

Anyway Vision the moronicness goes both ways. Some of our mullah's would be quick to dismiss alcohol, pork..... but no condemnation of heroine, hashish, heck cigarettes are more harmful than alcohol too, since I think 90% of them are on some sort of drug.. anyway.

........ Hang Em!!

Ray
05 Aug 04,, 20:24
A large majority of the world eat pigs. They sure are crazy?;)

To visualise all Indians as Hindus is stupid to say the least. Cows aren't too bad to eat or are they? Heard of the mad cow disease, haven't heard of mad pig disease. And tapeworms etc infest both the variety. Take your choice. ;)

Still want to know the pig fat story.

From Grimms Fairy Tales or Hans Christen Andersen?

Aryan
05 Aug 04,, 21:04
To visualise all Indians as Hindus is stupid to say the least.

And visualising all Pakistanis as Muslim is okay?

Jay
05 Aug 04,, 21:48
I need both bacon and ham for my appetite, I dont eat much Chicken though :biggrin:

Most of the desi muslims I encountered here are very religious, they eat halal meat and they dont eat pork nor drink alcohol.

Asim Aquil
05 Aug 04,, 21:52
And how did Hindus come into this discussion!? Just because of the mention of a cow?

I was just trying to remember, yeap the mad-cow disease. I had mixed it up with the pig thing. There WAS a pig thing too, some epidemic, not like with all pigs. I just can't remember.

Bill
06 Aug 04,, 15:57
"whats with you M21 ...

I'm all for eliminating these scum ...

but your idea is plain old silly ... whoever told you this, is probably still sitting somewhere laughing himself silly that you believed his crap ...

I've already explained that this doesn't have any meaning ...


it don't matter whether you dip them in pig blood or smear them with pig manure ...

in Islam ... paradise is EARNED by DEEDS and not by whether you were "clean" when you died ...

man ... those terrorists are laughing at you for having believed their crappy story ... !!!

man .... your one fool if you believed those pig-fat story ..."

Read the post directly above yours- posted by Chris.

True story. That's where i get this.

Remember when Muslims fighting for the Brits rebelled because the cartridge cases they were issued were soaked in pig's fat? Hmmm?

That's where i get all this.

Donnie
06 Aug 04,, 17:18
i dont think i could live without bacon, or babyback ribs, but my wife is a vegitartian, that should be semi safe for her? i mean, ive never heard of mad carrots disease.

Ray
06 Aug 04,, 19:23
Asim,

What's all this Hindu pizzazz, you are talking about?

I don't know what Jay is, but what makes you feel I am a Hindu since only two from India are here. That's being presumptuous.

Friend, everything has its pluses and minuses. Indian and Pakistani bred pigs and emaciated cows that we both have are not terriffic to eat. They could be from the roadside and abandoned.

I just go for farm bred stuff, but the beef is yet to be farm bred. So, I avoid it, except sometimes when nothing better is available. Short of being a cannibal, I have no qualms. In India, religious bigotry is much less.

Please note, that neither Christians or Hindus clergy are like hawks overlooking their flock for errors of religious judgement.

In India, none cares if you visit a church or a temple. Only the mosques blare their message calling all to atttend, disturbing everyone else.

Since this a secular country, though there is a decibel level, none would dare to stop the noise from the mosque five times a day! Catch the Idian politicians to lose the largest Moslem vote bank - second largest in the world and more than Pakistan! They even chaged the Constitution when the Supreme Court ruled against the Shah Bano case, where the Supreme Court ruled that the woman was entitled maintenance! In fact, the Moslems are more equal than anyone else. Now, in Andhra Pradesh (a state of India) they are legislating for special quotas for Moslems in jobs (which they have in any case). They don't have it for Christians and teh Christians couldn't care a damn! We stand on our own two feet and don't want sops! The most stupid thing I have heard is that the Moslems are wanting the Constitution changed so that they have 'reservations' i.e. quota without merit in the private sector i.e. industry etc which are privately owned! Are the privately owned companies some sort of a philnatrohic organisation to uplift idiots and illiterates to sink their profit and then close down getting bankrupt? How much of this nonsense must go on to be secular?

Fortunately, the Christains are Indianised and have no mother country like the Moslems who have Saudi Arabia and so it is great. We say our prayers in the local language and even have rites that are akin to Indian culture. Further, great work has been done in education with the best schools offered by Christians as also for orphanages and social work irrespective of religion. Heard of Mother Teresa? She was a Christian, but India gave her the highest honour. It may surprise you, I was responsible for organising her funeral. Saw the TV?

Unfortunately, the Moslem have done good work only for Moslems. That is whre the lose out. They are a closed society and care for themselves alone!

Somewher on this forum you said that Islam cares little about Hindu way or whatever. I reckon you don't care about the Christian way too. But let me assure, we, here in India, care for ALL the ways to God. That is the greatness of India!

Ray
06 Aug 04,, 19:36
Asim,

Another thing that upset me and make me very insecure is that in Islam you emphasise on HATRED for other people and religion : jihad, kafir, martyrdom by knocking off non Moslems, while in Christianity, our clergy speaks of love for mankind, forgiving those who tresspass and love of mankind. Christianity has NEVER converted with the SWORD like Islam. Islam has always. Must you spread the message with FEAR for subjugation?

How come that both this religions have emanated from the same soil and yet are so different?

Even the Catholic Church (which is the strictest of the lot) is keeping up with the times, but Islam is in a time warp of the Medieval days.

Get real!

As far as Pakistan not being totally Islam, do compare the statistics and to be fair in percentages! It would never compare with India!

Reveille!

Aryan
06 Aug 04,, 19:54
Ray,

I don't know what planet you are living but you seem to be making out as if Pakistan as oppressive as the Taliban, which it is not, and India is as free as some western republic, which also is not true. I hear stories all the time of car drivers being bludgeoned to death by irate hindu fanatics after just because they ran over a cow. I hear about killings of Christians and Christian missionaries. If it was such a great place for muslims to stay, why was the Babri mosque destroyed? Then there is the fanatical Hindu Tamil suicide bombers.

Islam has been used to carry out a great deal of evil, but the same goes for your Hinduism.

Those in glass houses...

Ray
06 Aug 04,, 19:59
Aryan,

You have no clue of history.

Remember the Somnath Temple and Mohammed Ghazni. Of course you won't. Pakistan history started after 1947. The earlier history is fairy tales?

If Christains or Hindus or Buddhists have converted anyone by using the SWORD or OPPRESSION, then I would be grateful if you eduucate me.

By the Way, being an Indian, I would also like you to know that you have to beBORN A HINDU TO BE A HINDU. That obviously cuts out conversion.

And CHRISTIANS have NEVER coverted ANYONE BY THE sword OR OPPRESSION.

Any answers from you? Tell us how you are better. You are spreading hatred and mayhem currently. You are making people ive in prison houses and always wary of his neighbour. Is that how Islam teaches us to live? Can we not live in Peace? Must be always be at war? The world is now at war. Even in Pakistan, where AQ guys surface daily. Bombs blast daily in Iraq. You don't care even for your own Islamic brethern. Is that religion? If so, a rather odd a religion!

Yet, there are santimonius Moslems who state that those who are perpetuating this mayhem are against Islam. Yet, they don't have the guts to tell their Mullahs to isue a fatwa as they did for Salman Rushdie and that Bagnladeshi lady author. Cut out this ambigious existence. Get real. Do something and not just post this pontifications. Go on the streets and fight this vermin.

I don't think any religion is bad. The practitioners are bad. All religions requir a hard look. And practitioner must ensure it changes to keep in stride with modernity and the times. Living in a time warp is dangerous to say the least!

Ray
06 Aug 04,, 20:04
Aryan,

Moslem have either converted people by the SWORD or by OPPRESSION.

Heard of the JEZIA tax imposed on non Moslem in India so that folks change their faith?

Aryan
06 Aug 04,, 20:14
Moslem have either converted people by the SWORD or by OPPRESSION.
Heard of the JEZIA tax imposed on non Moslem in India so that folks change their faith?

We weren't talking about Muslims, we were talking about Hindoos. You are avoiding the point I was making.

Aryan
06 Aug 04,, 20:23
If Christains or Hindus or Buddhists have converted anyone by using the SWORD or OPPRESSION, then I would be grateful if you eduucate me.

By the Way, being an Indian. I would also like you to know that you have to beBORN A HINDU TO BE A HINDU. That obviously cuts out conversion.

Thats true in some interpretations of Hindooism, but people do convert:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/apr/17fr.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3534071.stm
http://www.sikhe.com/gsdno/articles/editorial/10112001_onpigeonholingsikhs.htm

Converts to hinduism do exist.


And CHRISTIANS have NEVER coverted ANYONE BY THE sword OR OPPRESSION.
Thats a fat lie, Moorish Jews and Muslims were forced to convert to Christianity or die during the Spanish Inquisition.

Ray
06 Aug 04,, 20:25
Silly man. Read my posts. I am not only talking about the Hindus, but also for the Chrostains since you wish to defile both.

Speak for Islam and answer the posts.

Ray
06 Aug 04,, 20:26
Silly man. Read my posts. I am not only talking about the Hindus, but also for the Christains since you wish to defile both.

Speak for Islam and answer the posts.

Don't be so intolerant. Is this what Islam stands for?

As far as the Spanish Inquistions are concerned, how did the Moslems come? Analyse and you will realise what the real story was. Who converted who and then what happened.

Wake up, in case you did not understand the word 'Reville'.

Aryan,

You roots as you claim is in Europe. What happened enroute?

Converts to Hinduism? Some examples, please. Haven't heard of it, unless you are talikng about ISKON. Have they ever been accepted? Quote authority.

Ray
06 Aug 04,, 20:55
Aryan,

It is 1.22 AM Indian time. Time to sleep. So I don't wnt to go into any more discussions.

Just answer one question.

Christianity talks of LOVE. Hinduism doesn' allow conversion and possibly couldn't care less whats going on. Islam talks of HATRED and OPRESSION.

Any wise idea how Christians are stupid or Hindus or Buddhist or even pagans?

I rather thrive in the love for Mankind, than hate everyone else.

If indeed, there was an edict in my religion (which I don;t practise) to hate, I would shun it and fight for the truness of love in mankind and not sit like imbeciles waiting for the Priest to guide the way.

All religions are good. It is the cleric who wreck it up. There has always been a power struggle between the temporal and the constitutional. Even Musharraf, who means well, is up a gum tree.

Asim Aquil
06 Aug 04,, 20:55
Woah woh. Back up there, Ray for a second. Neither did I call you a Hindu (Ray = Raymond? Christian name, why would I think you're a Hindu?), neither did I have Hinduism on my mind when I mentioned, the..... freakin COW!

I know how it could be confusing when I mention Pig and Cow in the same sentence, one the Muslims don't like, the other several Hindus don't like. But let me clarify, I couldn't remember the name of the Mad-Cow disease (which you so generously pointed out later, thanks for that) but thats it. Thats how far it goes.

Here we have Hinduism, what disturbs an Indian's sleep 5 times a day, etc. etc. coming up in this discussion about hanging 51 terrorists, makes no sense? I don't care about all that, its none of my business.

Perhaps I can start a debate on Islam here, but that'd make me a moron for instigating religious disharmony out of the blue.

Aryan
06 Aug 04,, 20:59
Silly man. Read my posts. I am not only talking about the Hindus, but also for the Christains since you wish to defile both.

I've read your posts, and you can't seem to be able to hold a civilised conversation.


Speak for Islam and answer the posts.
Don't be so intolerant. Is this what Islam stands for?

I'm not in a position to be able to do so, and neither is it an obligation for me. I've not claimed the Islam has never been used to convert. It was you who claimed Hinduism and Christianity have never converted by the sword, I gave you evidence to the contrary, now the onus is upon you to disprove it or make me believe otherwise.


As far as the Spanish Inquistions are concerned, how did the Moslems come? Analyse and you will realise what the real story was. Who converted who and then what happened.

Are you denying conversions took place? Or are you justifying it. What about the jews who were killed or forced to convert. Tell me the "real story" about that.


You roots as you claim is in Europe. What happened enroute?

Converts to Hinduism? Some examples, please. Haven't heard of it, unless you are talikng about ISKON. Have they ever been accepted? Quote authority.

I gave you examples, its obvious certain branches of Hinduism have accepted them, even if yours hasn't.

Ray
06 Aug 04,, 21:01
Friend Aryan,

I am civilised.

Your posts have no backing from history or otherwise. Look at the HATRED you are spreading by your bunkum of jihad and other crap.

Asim Aquil
06 Aug 04,, 21:11
Friend Aryan,

I am civilised.

Your posts have no backing from history or otherwise. Look at the ahtred you are spreading by your bunkum of jihsad and other crap.

Dude I think its time you got that sleep... You're unsually edgy right now.

Ray
06 Aug 04,, 21:15
YOU ARE NOT OBLIGED TO SPEAK FOR iSLAM YOU SAY.

OBVIOUSLY! ;)

Ray
06 Aug 04,, 21:24
Asim,

Its OK.

Aryan is on record to be an Aryan. Whiter than the whites. Most of his life in the UK etc etc and also how he is more European than sub continentals There is obviously is something psychologically wrong. Obviously he is implying that 'darkies' are sub human to the 'whites'. I don't find that reasoning even amongst the 'rabid' whites.

A person who forgets his roots (no matter how lousy it is and it could be) is indeed interesting a joe.

He even claimed that his folks prefered to be Germans than whatever he may be.

If I said I was born in Britain, does it make me white? Whats so great in having been sun denied? :)

Ray
06 Aug 04,, 21:30
Asim,

It is not for anyone to call you or think that you are a moron if you start a thread on Islam. In fact, there is a thread faithfreedom something or the other which quotes the shariat etc and then decimates it. Therfore, it is time fpr good folks like you to contest it, lest we are swayed. I have stopped going to it since it only spews bad blood.

Nor should you believe that I could retaliate with a thread on Hinduism. I know very little on that religion.

I could not even start a thread on Christianity since I don't have the knowledge as the Pope or the Archbishop of the Anglican Chruch has.

I know but only the basics; but what I sincerely believe is LOVE for Mankind and not HATRED.

Jay
06 Aug 04,, 21:41
Then there is the fanatical Hindu Tamil suicide bombers.
Aryan,
Hindusim has nothing to do with Sri Lankan situation. Unlike the bearded mullahs from Pakistan who killed innocent Kashmiri pandits based on religion, none of the tamil groups killed people just bcoz they are not hindus. Tamil groups in Sri Lanka is full of hindus and Christians....like Douglas Devanandam leader for EPKLF, Anton Balasingham from LTTE are all Christians. They dont include muslims coz they go hand in hand with SL forces.

So unlike the muslim terrorists in Pakistan these groups dont kill people based on religion. They have their own identity.

And all the tamil groups are operating in SL not in India. Bearded muslim terrorists are in Pakistan. So lets keep the discussion that way.

Ray
06 Aug 04,, 21:55
Why must Mullahs be bearded? Gilette has not visited their countries? :)

Asim Aquil
06 Aug 04,, 22:04
Aryan,
Bearded muslim terrorists are in Pakistan. So lets keep the discussion that way.

US French beards, aren't doing a bad job by hanging 51 of those are we?

They're bearded because they say that they're following the tradition of the prophet, since he had a beard. Doubt a humongus one like these guys. But anyway, there are far more important things of the Prophet to follow than the beard.

Bill
06 Aug 04,, 22:51
Asil, in Ray and Aryans little pissfest my response to you got buried.

Check it out on page 1 of this thread.

PS- Ray and Aryan, chill out bros.

Aryan
07 Aug 04,, 00:51
Hindusim has nothing to do with Sri Lankan situation. Unlike the bearded mullahs from Pakistan who killed innocent Kashmiri pandits based on religion, none of the tamil groups killed people just bcoz they are not hindus. Tamil groups in Sri Lanka is full of hindus and Christians....like Douglas Devanandam leader for EPKLF, Anton Balasingham from LTTE are all Christians. They dont include muslims coz they go hand in hand with SL forces.
So unlike the muslim terrorists in Pakistan these groups dont kill people based on religion. They have their own identity.

And all the tamil groups are operating in SL not in India. Bearded muslim terrorists are in Pakistan. So lets keep the discussion that way.[/QUOTE]

Just reading the manner in which you've replied indicates you find it offensive when I talk badly about the Tamil Tiger Terrorists.

Saddam was a messed up Arab Islamist (albeit a different brew to Osama), but he still had a Christian foreign minister. Islamic Palestinian groups operating in Israel have Christian members.


Why must Mullahs be bearded? Gilette has not visited their countries?
A bit like how soap hasn't reached India yet.

Confed999
07 Aug 04,, 00:57
A bit like how soap hasn't reached India yet.
M21Sniper just asked you guys to chill out, that means stop with this kind of thing. Thank you...

Bill
07 Aug 04,, 05:12
I guess i need to change the title under my avatar back to moderator so new posters know a mod is talking to them when i tell them to cool off.

Aryan
07 Aug 04,, 14:09
Sorry, I guess I got carried away with some of what Ray/Jay were saying..I'm not going to post in this thread anymore, except to say good riddance of the filthy arab vermin..

Confed999
07 Aug 04,, 15:17
Sorry, I guess I got carried away with some of what Ray/Jay were saying..I'm not going to post in this thread anymore, except to say good riddance of the filthy arab vermin..
To tell the truth, the way you guys trade insults without getting pissed off, I'd guess you were all best of friends. ;)

Ray
07 Aug 04,, 19:38
Aryan,

Whats your beef?

Logic?

Jay
10 Aug 04,, 18:17
Just reading the manner in which you've replied indicates you find it offensive when I talk badly about the Tamil Tiger Terrorists.
Terrorists are terrorists.... Killing innocent people is terrorism....they rather be tamil or kashmiri.

Hindusim has nothing to do with the situation in SL, its ethnic trouble. Its just not LTTE fighting in SL, there are other groups that've been fighting for their rights democratically. They dont kill innocent people just bcoz they are from a different religion, ethnicity or political belief...now thats called a struggle.

Praxus
10 Aug 04,, 18:37
To quote Charlie Daniels

"Take a big tall tree and a short piece of rope and hang 'em up high and let 'em swing 'til the sun goes down"

sam0001
10 Aug 04,, 19:31
Uncle Sam drops his Pak blinkers
CHIDANAND RAJGHATTA

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ FRIDAY, AUGUST 06, 2004 07:22:30 PM ]

WASHINGTON: Pakistan is coming sharply into Washington's crosshairs with
the United States finally focusing on a country widely seen as the ground
zero of terrorism.


Authorities in Britain and the United States have made a flurry of arrests
over the last 48 hours of suspected al Qaeda elements, all of whose trail
leads back to Pakistan.

The Bush administration has also forced Islamabad to crack down on
terrorist elements in Pakistan, and the Musharraf's regime's action in
this regard has invited lavish praise from US officials.

Two of the biggest catches came from Britain. One of them, Abu Musa
al-Hindi, described by US officials as a major al Qaeda figure, is
suspected of writing surveillance reports on in US financial landmarks
that were found in the computers of the Pakistani engineer Mohammed Naeem
Noor Khan.


Also held in London on Thursday at the behest of US authorities was Babar
Ahmad, a British citizen of Pakistani origin, who is accused of using
American web sites to solicit money for terrorist causes.


Both Al-Hindi and Ahmad were tracked down with information retrieved from
Khan's computers.

Meanwhile in Albany, New York, the FBI arrested two leaders of a local
mosque after a sting operation in which they were lured into a fictitious
plot to import a shoulder-fired missile to assassinate a Pakistani
diplomat in New York.

There was some concern in the US Muslim community that the charges stemmed from what seemed to be an entrapment.

Although the Bush administration continues to certify Pakistan's
cooperation in the war on terrorism, the flurry of arrests is once again
drawing American attention to Pakistan as the epicentre of terrorism
instead of Iraq, Iran and other distractions thrown up by the Bush
administration.

CNN ran a poll on Thursday asking "Pakistan: Friend or Foe?" a familiar
question among analysts in Washington and some of the discerning media.


In fact, CNN went on to quote US intelligence officials as saying al Qaeda
training camps have recently been reactivated along Pakistan's border with
south-eastern Afghanistan.

The network also quoted unnamed sources as saying there was proof Al-Qaeda operatives in Pakistan had contacted at least six people in the United
States, and that at least one of the contacts was in recent months.

Without directly addressing these issues or why Pakistan had been so
hospitable to terrorists, State Department spokesman Richard Boucher
strongly defended Islamabad's military regime saying it "is determined to
root out the elements of training or support or any other sort of safe
haven that terrorists might be getting in Pakistan."

But there are plenty of sceptics within the administration itself (who
keep leaking stories exposing Pakistan) and certainly in the Congress.


On Thursday, New Jersey Congressman Frank Pallone wrote to President Bush
charging that "Pakistan's protection to the Taliban is counter-productive
to the efforts to end terrorism and in fact, President Musharraf's support
and training of the Taliban has led to increased militant insurgency at
the Line of Control in Kashmir."

"Historically, military funding provided by the United States to Pakistan
has been used against India, and I request that your administration
examine the use of U.S. funds by Pakistan for purposes of sheltering and
providing ammunition to the Taliban," Pallone wrote in an Aug. 5 letter.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-805498,curpg-4.cms

visioninthedark
10 Aug 04,, 19:38
"whats with you M21 ...

I'm all for eliminating these scum ...

but your idea is plain old silly ... whoever told you this, is probably still sitting somewhere laughing himself silly that you believed his crap ...

I've already explained that this doesn't have any meaning ...


it don't matter whether you dip them in pig blood or smear them with pig manure ...

in Islam ... paradise is EARNED by DEEDS and not by whether you were "clean" when you died ...

man ... those terrorists are laughing at you for having believed their crappy story ... !!!

man .... your one fool if you believed those pig-fat story ..."

Read the post directly above yours- posted by Chris.

True story. That's where i get this.

Remember when Muslims fighting for the Brits rebelled because the cartridge cases they were issued were soaked in pig's fat? Hmmm?

That's where i get all this.


Cartridge had to be BITTEN with their teeth ..... INGESTION OF PIG NOT ALLOWED ..... not PIG FAT SMEARED ON THE OUTSIDE .... LOL

those who rebelled against the Brits were BOTH Hindus and Moslems .... Hindus because they were vegetarian then, and didn't like biting into PIG FAT and Moslems because they didnt like INGESTING (SWALLOWING) Pig Fat ...


that absurd story by Chriss .... man ROFLMAO .... whoever made that up .... LOL ... sure has taken you guys for a ride ... ohh yeah .... those guys believed and knew they were going to heaven as per ISLAMIC law .... they just pulled a quick one before being executed ... GUESS THEY HAD THE LAST LAUGH .... LOL ... YOU STILL QUOTE AND BELIEVE THAT STUPID STORY .... EVEN THOUG, as a Moslem myself ... I'm telling you its a load of bull .... ROFLMAO ...

why don't you get it ... Muslims believe heaven is earned by following the Commandments and DEEDS ... not by whether you had taken a shower promptly before falling to the ground and dying ..... ROFLMAO ...

Man .... u been taken for a ride .... LOL

Asim Aquil
10 Aug 04,, 19:48
Damn, leave it to the infamous Pakistan hating Chidu Raj to rape this story, which should be commended not condemned.

Musharraf's "regime" not government, not administration :D. It's those subtle words that make all the difference in Propaganda wars.

visioninthedark
10 Aug 04,, 19:50
Asim,

Its OK.

Aryan is on record to be an Aryan. Whiter than the whites. Most of his life in the UK etc etc and also how he is more European than sub continentals There is obviously is something psychologically wrong. Obviously he is implying that 'darkies' are sub human to the 'whites'. I don't find that reasoning even amongst the 'rabid' whites.

A person who forgets his roots (no matter how lousy it is and it could be) is indeed interesting a joe.

He even claimed that his folks prefered to be Germans than whatever he may be.

If I said I was born in Britain, does it make me white? Whats so great in having been sun denied? :)


ummmmmmm Ray,

being Kashmiri, me and Aryan, our roots REALLY ARE Aryan ... and you very well know that Kashmiris are much different in skin complexion compared to the rest of the subcontinent ...

I don't think he said what he did because he lives in Britain, but because he is Kashmiri ... and us being Aryan and having a different complexion is a FACT ... !!

Ray
10 Aug 04,, 19:55
I don't know why our good man Aryan got riled. I too can get riled. However, I am rational. He has an opinion and so have I or Jay. One may not agree with anyone. But so what?

Vision,


Aryan?

Check the thread where one posted the spread of Aryans!

Remember all invaders into India came through Kashmir. All sorts of blokes. Obviously, they were not pious celibates! ;)

Let's leave it at that so long as we are good folks.

Ray
10 Aug 04,, 20:02
Vision'

My neighbour is fair. Fairer than any North Indian. His mother is a Manipuri (Mongoloid). He too claims he is an Aryan. I say I am an Indian.

Further, do not trouble yourself about my religion. It is not what you all assume. I believe that I am an Indian and whether when you cirticise, my religion is immateiral, even if you criticise the Indian Moslem, I will defend them because they are Indians, first and always.

So cut the religion chatter and get down to business.

You are as wrong about me as you guys are about Confed, where you thought he is desi! He is a paleface who does not talk with a forked tongue!

Ray
10 Aug 04,, 20:05
Aryan,

Do forgive me but don't equate me with the 'Arab vermin'.

Gien by your dislike for the good Arabs of Mecca, I reckon they stink.

I normally meet people and shake hands and don't really sniff them for olafactory acceptability. I commend you for your sniffing prowess.

Please note, I have a bath daily and use deoderants. There is no shortage of water here. I am sure it is the same in Pakistan.

Thank you for you consideration.

visioninthedark
10 Aug 04,, 20:12
Vision'

Further, do not trouble yourself about my religion. It is not what you all assume. I believe that I am an Indian and whether when you cirticise, my religion is immateiral, even if you criticise the Indian Moslem, I will defend them because they are Indians, first and always.

So cut the religion chatter and get down to business.

You are as wrong about me as you guys are about Confed, where you thought he is desi! He is a paleface who does not talk with a forked tongue!

I don't remember saying confed was an asian .... sory ... maybe you're mixing me up with someone else ..

second ... I'm not trying to play tricks with your religion ... I was only mentioning the REASONS for the 1857 mutiny (as the Brits call it) or War of Independence (as subcontinentals believe it to be) ...

remember its cause was the "biting of the bullet" which irked both moslem and hindu ...

thats what I was pointing out ...

Ray
10 Aug 04,, 20:37
Vision,

You have a point there.

Personally, I would not like to 'bite the bullet'. :)

Praxus
10 Aug 04,, 20:47
Cartridge had to be BITTEN with their teeth ..... INGESTION OF PIG NOT ALLOWED ..... not PIG FAT SMEARED ON THE OUTSIDE .... LOL

Why not?

Pigs are some of the cleanist animals, ironicly.

Bill
10 Aug 04,, 20:56
"that absurd story by Chriss .... man ROFLMAO .... whoever made that up .... LOL ... sure has taken you guys for a ride ... ohh yeah .... those guys believed and knew they were going to heaven as per ISLAMIC law .... they just pulled a quick one before being executed ... GUESS THEY HAD THE LAST LAUGH .... LOL ... YOU STILL QUOTE AND BELIEVE THAT STUPID STORY .... EVEN THOUG, as a Moslem myself ... I'm telling you its a load of bull .... ROFLMAO ..."

It's a true story, and a well documented one at that. A muslim- from my understanding- cannot be buried in swine and still gain access to paradise(not that there is such a thing anyway, but i digress).

Aryan
10 Aug 04,, 23:40
You gota be kidding me? The real terrorist is **** government! The haven of terrorist is Pakistan all the Alqahda terrorist that has been captured so far was in Pakistan. There are terrorist training camps in Pakistan where fanatics are brainwashed and sent to get killed either in Afghanistan or India----Kashmir! Taliban ministers roaming in cities of Pakistan to raise funds and new recruit----would NOT be possible without corporation of terrorist state of Pakistan! Keeping all these facts in mind, one wonder who are these 150 "terrorist"? May be some innocent Pashton guy caught being labeled as “terrorist” only so the real terrorist government of Pakistan could beg for more cash and aid from US!---which most of these aid money then will end back in US or European banks since Pakistan is most corrupt nation in face of planet!

I smell ******...

Innocent Pashton? You gotta be fucking kidding me... Pushtoons are the most extreme, messed up wahabbi (not islamic or muslim in any sense) terrorists in the world. When not smoking opium or feeding it to your children you fight your wahabi jihad against anything haram and unislamic. You make arabs seem like a peaceful and tolerant people. We Pakistanis don't need you, you should leave Pakistan and carry on killing the innocent Hazara and other minorities of Afghanistan.

As for your wild allegations against the Pakistani government, try to back up any of it with evidence. You are just using your hatred of Pakistan and the Pakistani government to launch a cheap shot at Pakistan, presumably because you are a wahabbi terrorist sympathiser yourself. But you are wasting your time, most people here actually read newspapers and news coverage that goes on, far more than what Kandahar FM are broadcasting to you.

Bad boy, now go back to your wahabi Saudi masters for an Islamic punishment.

Aryan
11 Aug 04,, 01:37
O boy this coming out of a ****---whos country was created only caz of religion? :biggrin:

Pakistan wasn't created out of religion, Jinnah was a pork eating secularist. It was a union of Indian states Punjab, Sindh, Balouchistan NWFP and Kashmir. The islam reason was just one of the factors used for the bid for independence.


No wonder you are really a **** filth, or you will not generalize a whole nation (afghan or Pashtons wt ever u call us)

I don't generalise a whole nation. Pashtons are only one ethnic group in Afghanistan, they don't even form a majority. There are plenty of tolerant peaceful ethnic Persian and Turkic people in Afghanistan who hate Pashtons. Have a look at www.afghan-web.com to see for yourself.


! Indeed we are not a fun of cultureless, and identity less *****---if you take Islam out of Pakistan-----ethically and legally you will go back to India

Pakistanis are an Nordindid race, and racially different to the Indian vedoid race. The only people in India we have racial similarities are the few Aryan peoples remaining in the north of India, and the Brahmin to a certain extent.


----while we Pasthons have more then 5000 years of history, identity and culture other then Islam!

Pakistan's history goes back as far as the Paleolithic age, or 500 kya. Islam was a late influence on our people, and Pakistanis generally follow a more tolerant form of Islam (Shia, Barelwi, Sufi, Ahmadi) than the wahabbism u profess.


I wish for a day when the filthy of ***** and filth of Arab culture---Islam is uprooted from land of Pashtons form once and for all!

Islam is arab culture, do you really want to remove that? Pashtons are essentially arabs, the only difference is they don't have oil or sand. They have opium.


Also if you need prove for Pakistan being heaven of terrorist then read some news, all the terrorist which were apprehended so far has been caught in Pakistan—special cities in Panjab, and Sihnd! What this tells you ha?

Terrorists have been caught in cities all over the world. Any were arrested in London, Hamburg, even the other day in New York. Does that mean those respective governments in support terrorism?

Confed999
11 Aug 04,, 02:09
He is a paleface who does not talk with a forked tongue!
Thanks Ray, I think! :tongue:

sam0001
11 Aug 04,, 05:36
Pakistan has problems with almost every country. Mark my words here... China will dump pak as soon as all disputes with India are resolved which seem to go in that direction. Hell... Even NK dumped you guys. Even they gave up on khan network. Your generals have cared seldom about the people of pak. Remember, Gen. Zia who said that pak would make a bomb even if that meant they his people would have to eat grass. Please... Before you preach others fix your own backyards and clean up the terrorism mess soon.

You might want to read the 9/11 report which makes several recommendations about pakistan and implicitly terming it as a rouge nation. Clintons book also talks about the pakistani involvement in kargil, which for years mushraff claimed it to be an act of terrorists . It took years, until recently mushraff agreed to the fact that it was a failure on pakistani part. May be you might want to look up the archives. The world is watching and day by day you are losing more friends and creating more enemies.

You call yourself moderate muslims, but more than half the people in pak are wahabi fundamentalits or atleast agree with them. May be you "visioninthedark" might want to check out on pakistanidefenceforum how many of the forum members sprew hate for indians, the forum you post frequently. All this just goes to show contradictions of your own statements.

Ray
11 Aug 04,, 09:31
Afghan,

The Pashtuns always wanted Pakhtoonistan. Remember the Frontier Gandhi, Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan?

Quite a few of the ministers of the Afghan govt are India educated. Karzai himself too! I don't think he is a US or an Indian stooge.

But from the tirade against you, one wonders if the Pashtuns or Baluchis will ever be accepted. Even the last Prime Minister was a Baluchi and he was shown the door and Punajbis will rule the roost.

The Punjabis are the landed class with the money and in the Armed Forces. The Mojahirs are the brains. It is a fight for supremacy amongst them. You are just snacks. I have written an article on the same and even posted it here and it caused bad blood and so I won't like to post it again.

All I can say, we can't change the world or our country.

I just hope that the Muzzafarbad - Srinagar road is open. Let the Kashmiris see the difference. I have seen Gilgit through an aerial recce from our siee of the LoC. I have seen the same in Neelam Valley as also toward Rajauri etc. Unless the road is open, the difference cannot be fathom.

Therefore, none will open the road. It is good for politics! Like none will rid themselves of the Taliban. Its good for megabucks.

Aryan
11 Aug 04,, 14:58
Pakistan has problems with almost every country.

All our neighbours are allies, Iran, Afghanistan, China. Even Sri Lanka and Bangladesh are our allies.


Mark my words here... China will dump pak as soon as all disputes with India are resolved which seem to go in that direction.

China has chosen to ignore or avoid most of the disputes with India, and has shown no policy to challenge anything seriously. China's policy towards Pakistan won't change one bit, I'd take a bet on that. We have just announced joint military operations, and they will be held on a regular basis.


Hell... Even NK dumped you guys. Even they gave up on khan network. Your generals have cared seldom about the people of pak. Remember, Gen. Zia who said that pak would make a bomb even if that meant they his people would have to eat grass. Please... Before you preach others fix your own backyards and clean up the terrorism mess soon.

North Korea was a communist state,


You might want to read the 9/11 report which makes several recommendations about pakistan and implicitly terming it as a rouge nation. Clintons book also talks about the pakistani involvement in kargil, which for years mushraff claimed it to be an act of terrorists . It took years, until recently mushraff agreed to the fact that it was a failure on pakistani part. May be you might want to look up the archives. The world is watching and day by day you are losing more friends and creating more enemies.

You obviously missed the part where it condoned Pakistan, and lauded its role in the war on terror. To this day, America is praising virtually everything we do. Just the other day when we arrested those al-quaeda operatives both America and Britain began their praising of Pakistan. The entire western world is at war with Islam, and Musharraf's "enlightened moderation" is definitely something they agree with.


You call yourself moderate muslims, but more than half the people in pak are wahabi fundamentalits or atleast agree with them. May be you "visioninthedark" might want to check out on pakistanidefenceforum how many of the forum members sprew hate for indians, the forum you post frequently. All this just goes to show contradictions of your own statements.
Thats not true. Indians have a concept that you can only hate Indians if you are a wahabbi. I'm a shia and I don't like Indians (or at least some Indians). Does that make me a wahabi? Furthermore, what about Indians who hate Pakistan, what are they?

Aryan
11 Aug 04,, 15:01
M21 sniper,

I read that it was true, muslims who have touched pig or are buried with them automatically become unclean and cannot enter paradise. But I don't think it will change the way they will act. The British used artillery to execute rebellious muslims to blow them into pieces. That was because apparently muslims believe they will be denied a place in the afterworld unless they are in one piece (presumably buried as well). That doesn't stop suicide bombers.

visioninthedark
11 Aug 04,, 16:05
"that absurd story by Chriss .... man ROFLMAO .... whoever made that up .... LOL ... sure has taken you guys for a ride ... ohh yeah .... those guys believed and knew they were going to heaven as per ISLAMIC law .... they just pulled a quick one before being executed ... GUESS THEY HAD THE LAST LAUGH .... LOL ... YOU STILL QUOTE AND BELIEVE THAT STUPID STORY .... EVEN THOUG, as a Moslem myself ... I'm telling you its a load of bull .... ROFLMAO ..."

It's a true story, and a well documented one at that. A muslim- from my understanding- cannot be buried in swine and still gain access to paradise(not that there is such a thing anyway, but i digress).

Well Sir ... let me assure you ... as a moslem myself .... that "your" understanding is WRONG ...

sorry to dissappoint you guys .... BUT I THINK THOSE GUYS HAD THE LAST LAUGH ... !!

visioninthedark
11 Aug 04,, 16:08
sam ... we all know you are indian ... and an extremist at that ... afterall it was for this reason that you were banned on the other forums ...

you words against Pak carry NO CREDIBILITY ...

TYPICAL HINDUTVA-FANATIC MINDSET ...

Ray
11 Aug 04,, 16:18
People may not like to be wahabis, butI am sure when they see a pretty thing, they surely say 'Wah! Baby'.

Ray
11 Aug 04,, 16:32
Does it matter if Jinnah was a pork eating person?

He was a westernised gentleman, who married out of his religion i.e. he married a Parsi (originally inhabitants of Persia and who leaving Persia, because of persecution, came to Gujerat in India). Therefore, his eating pork or taking alcohol is not unusual.

Why is eating pork or beef or imbibing alcohol made such a big issue? What about scoundrels who don't eat or imbibe tabooed meats etc? Isn't it better to have good men instead?

Only insecure chaps and crooks overdo religion.

Afghan,

I wish that Afghanistan stabilises and things become better.

Asim Aquil
11 Aug 04,, 16:38
Doubt it, it goes against the concepts of the grave in Islam. It is gross though.

I wouldn't want ppl to come by my grave after 100 yrs and go like, here lies the great Asim Aquil, with 10 gallons of lard. You'll be accounted for your deeds and thats it.

Ray
11 Aug 04,, 16:42
Since so much is always being said about Aryan, here are some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan

Good to know that Sanskrit and Rig Veda (Hindu stuff) etc on this link. Sad to say Urdu or Arabic is missing!

It is also intresting that Kashmiri is the most Sanskritised language, which is the mother language of all languages in India. Can't find Arabic or Urdu in Kashmiri!

http://www.koausa.org/Languages/Shashi.html

Asim Aquil
11 Aug 04,, 16:54
Since so much is always being said about Aryan, here are some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan

Good to know that Sanskrit and Rig Veda (Hindu stuff) etc on this link. Sad to say Urdu or Arabic is missing!

It is also intresting that Kashmiri is the most Sanskritised language, which is the mother language of all languages in India. Can't find Arabic or Urdu in Kashmiri!

http://www.koausa.org/Languages/Shashi.html

It can't be Urdu since, Urdu is one of the newest languages on the planet. Just like 500 yrs old? I think it came during the rule of Akbar, when his Army had Persians, Punjabis, Sindhis, Bengalis and so on, a total mix. They had to develop some form of easy to grasp language. Urdu was designed to be easy. And thats exactly what they've achieved. If you ever come to Dubai, you'd be amazed to see the amount of people speaking the language.

Ray
11 Aug 04,, 17:00
China has chosen to ignore or avoid most of the disputes with India, and has shown no policy to challenge anything seriously. China's policy towards Pakistan won't change one bit, I'd take a bet on that. We have just announced joint military operations, and they will be held on a regular basis.

North Korea was a communist state,


The Indian Navy also had an exercise with China.

China has recognised Sikkim as a part of India.

These are what is called realpolitiks. If some good comes out of it, dash good I would say.

North Korea continues to be Communist state - at least till going in to post this. Hence, the 'was' part is not quite kosher.

Ray
11 Aug 04,, 17:06
Asim,

I am afraid you are not in synch with my post.

Who is saying anything bad about Urdu? It is wonderful language. We speak it too. Haven't you heard our Parliamentarians who, at the drop of a hat, use it? I am more at ease with Hindusthani, which is an ammalgam of Hindi and Urdu.

Urdu is an official language in India.

Asim Aquil
11 Aug 04,, 17:13
Asim,

I am afraid you are not in synch with my post.

Who is saying anything bad about Urdu? It is wonderful language. We speak it too. Haven't you heard our Parliamentarians who, at the drop of a hat, use it? I am more at ease with Hindusthani, which is an ammalgam of Hindi and Urdu.

Urdu is an official language in India.

I know it wasn't supposed to have much to do with your post. It was an off-topic - FYI.

Ray
11 Aug 04,, 18:58
But you used my post.

Therefore, the feeling that it could ne something to do with my post.

Ironduke
11 Aug 04,, 22:01
You guys are talking about the Sepoy Rebellion of 1857. Hindu and Muslim soldiers already enraged by conditions in the colonial army were provoked into rebellion when a rumor passed around that the cartridges were greased with cow and pig fat, cows being holy to Hindus and pigs dirty to Muslims.

Asim Aquil
11 Aug 04,, 23:16
let's get one thing straight, its not like u can take a water gun and spurt pig fat on a muslim and go like

"ha ha we got u, u're fragged! Now u're going to heeellll :P, nana boo boo"

intentions, deeds, play a bigger role

Bill
12 Aug 04,, 02:41
The whole no pig thing is stupid anyway.

I can't believe anyone would be so moronic to think they're not going to go to heaven/paradise/nirvahna/happy hunting grounds/valhalla/where ever because they eat bacon.

LOL, it's ridiculous. :confused:

sam0001
12 Aug 04,, 05:57
All our neighbours are allies, Iran, Afghanistan, China. Even Sri Lanka and Bangladesh are our allies.

well, ask any of those countries except china, if any of them would prefer pak to India. Hell! even the arabs have more respect for Indians than the pakistanis themselves. As the Iraqi's... they will tell you they chose India over pak. US has only short term intrests with pak. Once thats done you are tossed. Will sri lanka chose pak to India? Does anyone sell you arms or even dare to do any major business with strategic implications without Indian consent? That just speaks for itself....




China's policy towards Pakistan won't change one bit, I'd take a bet on that. We have just announced joint military operations, and they will be held on a regular basis.

Intrests will guide relations. In future, If china has no problems with India, why would china carry a terrorist state with her....


North Korea was a communist state,

And your mushraff was in bed with them..


You obviously missed the part where it condoned Pakistan, and lauded its role in the war on terror. To this day, America is praising virtually everything we do. Just the other day when we arrested those al-quaeda operatives both America and Britain began their praising of Pakistan. The entire western world is at war with Islam, and Musharraf's "enlightened moderation" is definitely something they agree with.

Are you reading the political/diplomatic statements or are you reading reports such as 9/11 commission and the bills passed by US congress... so many on how to deal with pakistan. All the assistance comes with a catch. I am not typing the bill, but here is the amendment

"The amendment titled, 'Section 708. Report On Actions Taken By Pakistan', states:

For each of fiscal years 2004 and 2005, the President shall prepare and transmit to the appropriate congressional committees a report that contains a description of the extent to which the Government of Pakistan:
has closed all known terrorist training camps operating in Pakistan and Pakistani-held Kashmir;

has established serious and identifiable measures to prohibit the infiltration of Islamic extremists across the ''Line of Control'' (LoC) into India; and

has ceased the transfer of weapons of mass destruction, including any associated technologies, to any third country or terrorist organization."



Thats not true. Indians have a concept that you can only hate Indians if you are a wahabbi. I'm a shia and I don't like Indians (or at least some Indians). Does that make me a wahabi? Furthermore, what about Indians who hate Pakistan, what are they?

Read my statements again. I said, anyone who is a wahabi and/or anyone who agress with them. You can be a part of it too.

Ray
12 Aug 04,, 06:04
let's get one thing straight, its not like u can take a water gun and spurt pig fat on a muslim and go like

"ha ha we got u, u're fragged! Now u're going to heeellll :P, nana boo boo"

intentions, deeds, play a bigger role

That's a great imagination and very humourous. A big water cannon and a whole lot of lard being pumped on a man.

He will choke in the sea of lard, having slipped!!!:) He would be FUBAR! ('H', OK?)

Aryan
12 Aug 04,, 12:32
"well, ask any of those countries except china, if any of them would prefer pak to India. "

Bangalis hate you. They would do anything in the case of a war to assist us against you. Sri Lanka, have historically allowed Pakistani jets fighting against India to refuel in Colombo, and we have been helping them for decades, as well as against the Tamil terrorists.

"Hell! even the arabs have more respect for Indians than the pakistanis themselves."
Arabs don't have respect for Indians, millions of Indians are literally living as slaves in Arab countries. Who would respect that? With Pakistan, when times matter we can play the islamic brotherhood card..and with the big players in the Arab world, Saudi and Egypt, it does seem to be working.
Iran are our mutual allies and theres no point of even discussing it. As soon as the mullahs have gone Pakistan and Iran will be closest of allies, it will be back to the times of the shah.

"As the Iraqi's... they will tell you they chose India over pak."

You are talking about Saddam the dictator, not the Iraqi people. Saddam only supported India because it was in the soviet sphere of influence. Pakistan was an American ally in the war against communism. India was in favour of communism.

"US has only short term intrests with pak. Once thats done you are tossed. "
America's interests is victory in the war on islamism, and that isn't going to be a very long war...

"Will sri lanka chose pak to India? Does anyone sell you arms or even dare to do any major business with strategic implications without Indian consent?"

Its more to do with finances than an Indian diplomatic victory. Indians can offer more contracts than Pakistan can. But don't worry, with this whole peace initiative, we can get India to trust us and rearm our nation.
That just speaks for itself....

"Intrests will guide relations. In future, If china has no problems with India, why would china carry a terrorist state with her"

China doesn't have problems with India right now, and they are our close allies. They have helped develop the JF-17 project, and given us F7s, not to mention the recent anti-terror operations. And don't refer to Pakistan as a terrorist state, I find that offensive. I could just as easily call your country a cow urine infested hinduvata baboon state.




"And your mushraff was in bed with them.. "

Musharraf wasn't, but we were in bed at the same time you were in bed with the soviets.



Are you reading the political/diplomatic statements or are you reading reports such as 9/11 commission and the bills passed by US congress... so many on how to deal with pakistan. All the assistance comes with a catch. I am not typing the bill, but here is the amendment

[B]"The amendment titled, 'Section 708. Report On Actions Taken By Pakistan', states:

For each of fiscal years 2004 and 2005, the President shall prepare and transmit to the appropriate congressional committees a report that contains a description of the extent to which the Government of Pakistan:
has closed all known terrorist training camps operating in Pakistan and Pakistani-held Kashmir;

has established serious and identifiable measures to prohibit the infiltration of Islamic extremists across the ''Line of Control'' (LoC) into India; and

You really think America cares about what goes on in Kashmir? America have just stuck that in to keep the Indians happy, theres no way that can actually be verified. Remember there weren't any camps in Azad Kashmir to begin with ;)

"has ceased the transfer of weapons of mass destruction, including any associated technologies, to any third country or terrorist organization."

Thank god, I'm glad they included this. I would hate it if any Arab nation ever managed to enjoy the fruits of our many years of hard labour.

"Read my statements again. I said, anyone who is a wahabi and/or anyone who agress with them. You can be a part of it too."
I don't agree with wahabis, so how can I be part of them? Gaddha..

Jay
12 Aug 04,, 15:58
Bangalis hate you. They would do anything in the case of a war to assist us against you.
Historically speaking :biggrin: they hate Punjabis tooth and nail. May be the islamic extremists in BD like the islamists in Pakistan.


Sri Lanka, have historically allowed Pakistani jets fighting against India to refuel in Colombo, and we have been helping them for decades, as well as against the Tamil terrorists.
Historically? You've been helping them for decades to get a foothold, but you havent got any. Sri Lanka just signed a strategic dfence cooperation agreement with India and it leased its oil tanks in the Eastern seaboard to India. On top of it just read the news papers how many times the president and prime minister of SL travelled to India in last 6 months.


Arabs don't have respect for Indians, millions of Indians are literally living as slaves in Arab countries. Who would respect that?
Arabs do have respect for India. Indians went as workers, so that does not have any impact over the political relationship we have.


With Pakistan, when times matter we can play the islamic brotherhood card..and with the big players in the Arab world, Saudi and Egypt, it does seem to be working.
Lets start with Palestine, heck they dont even acknowledge Paksitan's support to Kashmir. Egypt and India were in bed during the NAM era, though they dont have much interaction these days, they havent given blanket support to Pakistan. Remeber how Egypt stopped Portugese in Suez Canal when they tried getting Goa back from us??
Same with UAE, Oman. They have lot more business contracts with India, that Paksitans total export to the middle-east. The sheer number of Indians in UAE and their well being says it all.

So other than Saudi Arabia, Pakistan does not have a very big support base in the middle east. Saudi is supporting Pakistan for..ehm..we all know the reason :biggrin:


Iran are our mutual allies and theres no point of even discussing it. As soon as the mullahs have gone Pakistan and Iran will be closest of allies, it will be back to the times of the shah.
Heck, mullahs cannot be elimanted from Pakistan or Iran or for that matter India. Iran and India have a significant defence cooperation, so save your predictions.


You are talking about Saddam the dictator, not the Iraqi people. Saddam only supported India because it was in the soviet sphere of influence. Pakistan was an American ally in the war against communism. India was in favour of communism.
No, even the people of Iraq does support India than Pakistan. For once, most of them are Shiites and even the Sunnis there are not islamists. Remeber
Also did you see the way they killed the Pakistani hostages in Iraq? and did you notice the drama surrounding the Indian hostages? Pakistan was a workplace to enable the war in Afghanistan. India never supported communism, remember we were always a democracy in all these years when Pakistan had dictators overthrowing civilian govt.


Its more to do with finances than an Indian diplomatic victory. Indians can offer more contracts than Pakistan can.
It has nothing to do with finances. Its the historic relationship we share with SL, Malives, Maurtius, Fiji, Burma, Malaysia, Singapore, Guyana, South Africa, West Indies...etc etc. We have ethnic Indian population in all these areas. Our financial might came in last 10 years before than we were one of the most guarded economies in the world and we didnt give out contracts to anybody, not even to Soviet Union.


But don't worry, with this whole peace initiative, we can get India to trust us and rearm our nation. That just speaks for itself.
None of us dont trust India-Pakistan peace, so the whole trust and rearming is all hoopla. We will try to undermine every one of your defence purchase and bring you down in every geo-political forum.


China doesn't have problems with India right now, and they are our close allies.
Same with Pakistan, they havent had any problems with Pakistan so far. But Let the islamic terrorists move from Pakistan to Xinjiang then we have a thriller to watch.


They have helped develop the JF-17 project, and given us F7s, not to mention the recent anti-terror operations.
Hin hint...USA did the same to Pakistan during the so called war against communism. They gave you money, they gave you F-16's. They just used Pakistan as a pawn.


And don't refer to Pakistan as a terrorist state, I find that offensive. I could just as easily call your country a cow urine infested hinduvata baboon state.
And ****head dont refer Indians as ******s. I find that offensive and will call you a ****.


Musharraf wasn't, but we were in bed at the same time you were in bed with the soviets.
Yeah, we still are friends with Russia. We dont deny the strategic cooperation we had in the past, unlike Pakistan :tongue:


You really think America cares about what goes on in Kashmir? America have just stuck that in to keep the Indians happy, theres no way that can actually be verified. Remember there weren't any camps in Azad Kashmir to begin with
Oh, they do. Isnt that reason the Asst. Secretary from the State Dept travels to South Asia once a month ??

Jehadi camps does exist in Pakistan and Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Western nations incld USA, UK had acknowledged in the past and they still do think that Pakistan failed to close those jehadi shops. Did you read Mushy's interview with Jang? Mushraff said that once India Pakistan settle their scores, jehadis should leave Pakistan ;)


"has ceased the transfer of weapons of mass destruction, including any associated technologies, to any third country or terrorist organization.
Thank god, I'm glad they included this. I would hate it if any Arab nation ever managed to enjoy the fruits of our many years of hard labour.
Saudi Arabia funded your Army, the Establishment and your Madrassas.


I don't agree with wahabis, so how can I be part of them?
But you still have the same jehadi principles, which doesnt make you ay different.

Aryan
12 Aug 04,, 18:37
"Historically speaking :biggrin: they hate Punjabis tooth and nail. May be the islamic extremists in BD like the islamists in Pakistan. "

We aren't speaking historically, we are talking about contempoary geopolitics. Historically speaking Sikhs hate muslims, but ever since a certain operation they've put them aside to come and get armed by Pakistan.

Bangladeshis hate Indians. It might be a product of some sort of jihadi culture going on there, it might not. I don't know. I know BSF and the Bangladeshi army are trading shots at the borders.


Historically? You've been helping them for decades to get a foothold, but you havent got any. Sri Lanka just signed a strategic dfence cooperation agreement with India and it leased its oil tanks in the Eastern seaboard to India.
On top of it just read the news papers how many times the president and prime minister of SL travelled to India in last 6 months.

That is purely for economic benefit, just like how France and Germany were each others biggest trading partners before WW2.

"Arabs do have respect for India. Indians went as workers, so that does not have any impact over the political relationship we have."

Of course it does! If your people are prepared to tolerate filth and live like slaves, it does make the nation as a whole lose respect. And I forgot the mention India's close ties with Israel, that is certainly going to affect Indian-Arab relations.



Lets start with Palestine, heck they dont even acknowledge Paksitan's support to Kashmir.
Palestine? They don't even have a nation, what difference does that make. And that corrupt terrorist Arafat can hardly be the spokesman for the Palestinian people.


Egypt and India were in bed during the NAM era, though they dont have much interaction these days, they havent given blanket support to Pakistan. Remeber how Egypt stopped Portugese in Suez Canal when they tried getting Goa back from us??

That was back in Nasserite days when you were all communist bumchums! Soviet Union has gone now, and America is Egypt's pimp. Egyptians have shown interest in the K-8 trainer and the JF-17. True that doesn't necessarily mean they will buy them, but I don't hear them talking about LCA or Indian military hardware.



Same with UAE, Oman. They have lot more business contracts with India, that Paksitans total export to the middle-east. The sheer number of Indians in UAE and their well being says it all.

UAE are a mixed bag, but are a major trading partner of Pakistan. WE've exported military


So other than Saudi Arabia, Pakistan does not have a very big support base in the middle east. Saudi is supporting Pakistan for..ehm..we all know the reason :biggrin:

Saudi is a big player in terms of military, they spend more than the Indians do. It doesn't bother me why they support us, they can think we are their holy brothers in wahabism, as long as they buy tanks and military equipment, and send us a squadron of F-15s in case of an outburst of war against India. Don't forget all the Pakistani pilots operating Saudi jets.


"Heck, mullahs cannot be elimanted from Pakistan or Iran or for that matter India.

Its a lot more difficult for India to eliminate Mullahs from India, because it could easily be perceived as some form of persection. Pakistan have announced 51 terrorist are going to be hanged and most of the western media have ignored it, because we ourselves are muslim.
If hindu India made a similar announcement, there would be a massive outcry, and talk about how India oppresses minorities will be brought up, even if it isn't at all relavant.



Iran and India have a significant defence cooperation, so save your predictions.

That was just fabrication some Indian newspaper, nothing major in terms of military has been signed between Iran and India. Iranian officials from the Iranian embassy right up to the government itself denied they had entered any form of "base sharing" in the case of a Indo-Pakistan war.
http://www.dawn.com/2001/04/28/top12.htm


No, even the people of Iraq does support India than Pakistan. For once, most of them are Shiites and even the Sunnis there are not islamists.
20% of Pakistanis are SHIA, and Pakistan is neither sunni nor shia, it is muslim. Saddam was sunni and he was very anti-Pakistani and pro Indian. Sistani on the other hand complimented the bond sunnis and shias had in Pakistan, said Iraq should be like that.


Remeber
Also did you see the way they killed the Pakistani hostages in Iraq? and did you notice the drama surrounding the Indian hostages? Pakistan was a workplace to enable the war in Afghanistan.

They were islamic terrorists, we don't even know if they were Iraqi. I don't think all Iraqis feel the same way as them, and you should consider your fellow Indian fortunate that he wasn't butchered as well. Terrorists don't think rationally.


India never supported communism, remember we were always a democracy in all these years when Pakistan had dictators overthrowing civilian govt.

Soviet Union was communist, and India sure did support them.


It has nothing to do with finances. Its the historic relationship we share with SL, Malives, Maurtius, Fiji, Burma, Malaysia, Singapore, Guyana, South Africa, West Indies...etc etc. We have ethnic Indian population in all these areas.

In all the countries you named there, the ethnic Indians are hated! :biggrin: The local people despise them and there has been a lot of anti-Indian violence in all of them. Remember the attempted coup in Fiji?


Our financial might came in last 10 years before than we were one of the most guarded economies in the world and we didnt give out contracts to anybody, not even to Soviet Union.

Financial might? India may be economically ahead of Pakistan but it stil has a long way before you can use confident terms like that.


None of us dont trust India-Pakistan peace, so the whole trust and rearming is all hoopla. We will try to undermine every one of your defence purchase and bring you down in every geo-political forum.

Thats just now, we still haven't sorted Kashmir out. I guarantee you once we accept to defer resolution of Kashmir and maybe bus Kalam or Singh to Lahore, Indians will start trusting us again. I'm willing to bet Indians will actually help Pakistan develop their economy in areas where India specialises in, such as IT, just as it is doing with China.


Same with Pakistan, they havent had any problems with Pakistan so far. But Let the islamic terrorists move from Pakistan to Xinjiang then we have a thriller to watch.

What are you talking about? Pakistan has condemned militancy in xinjiang and shot dead the militant leader of ETIM, and deported many more members running from Afghanistan. It isn't the 90s when ISI were secretly providing support for them. Now China held anti terrorist exercises with Pakistan in Xinjiang, and it is to become a permenant annual fixture.


Hin hint...USA did the same to Pakistan during the so called war against communism. They gave you money, they gave you F-16's. They just used Pakistan as a pawn.

To an extent all international relationships are about "using" and taking advantages. You could make the same case that the Soviets used India as a pawn to counter China and American influence in the region.


And ****head dont refer Indians as ******s. I find that offensive and will call you a ****.

You already do, the whole thread is filled with racial slurs towards Pakistan and Pakistanis. I'm only answering in kind to make a point.


Yeah, we still are friends with Russia. We dont deny the strategic cooperation we had in the past, unlike Pakistan :tongue:

In that case do you deny India's military past in Saddam's Iraq? Gaddafi?


Oh, they do. Isnt that reason the Asst. Secretary from the State Dept travels to South Asia once a month ??

To give President Musharraf a pat on the back and perhaps open up some new Pakistani school, but I can assure you she doesn't go hunting for militant camps in Kashmir.


Jehadi camps does exist in Pakistan and Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Western nations incld USA, UK had acknowledged in the past and they still do think that Pakistan failed to close those jehadi shops.

America and the west really are unsure abotu the whole Kashmiri issue. Not long ago the said there was an al-quaeda presence in Kashmir, and then 2 days related issued a full retraction. America doesn't really care about Kashmir as long a it doesn't boil over into too much of a serious problem. They are have all their concentration on catching Osama bin Laden.


Saudi Arabia funded your Army, the Establishment and your Madrassas.

Saudis fund most of the madrassas in Pakistan (and have many all over the world), but the army and establishment are funded by Pakistan's federal budget.


But you still have the same jehadi principles, which doesnt make you ay different.

I don't have jihadi principles, believing Kashmir needs to be free isn't jihadi. Are you going to call Bangalis jihadi for wanting independence, or Gandhi for wanting freedom from the BRitish?

Jay
12 Aug 04,, 20:03
We aren't speaking historically, we are talking about contempoary geopolitics. Historically speaking Sikhs hate muslims, but ever since a certain operation they've put them aside to come and get armed by Pakistan.
1971 is contemproary. I talked with many Bengalis here, they still do have a vivid memory of 1971. Bindhranwala got arms from Pakistan coz no one else was ready to arm him. Politics/Economics 101, not becoz they loved Pakistan.


Bangladeshis hate Indians. It might be a product of some sort of jihadi culture going on there, it might not. I don't know. I know BSF and the Bangladeshi army are trading shots at the borders.
Its a very complex relationship, but I dont say that we hate each other. We have a lot of agreements and dis-agreements with Bangalis.


That is purely for economic benefit, just like how France and Germany were each others biggest trading partners before WW2.
May be or may be not. But our co-operation with SL is not just economic, as I said we just signed a defence accord with SL and we are going to sign one with Maldives.


And I forgot the mention India's close ties with Israel, that is certainly going to affect Indian-Arab relations.
We've been friends with Israel for the last 10 years and our relationship with Arabs hasnt changed a bit so far.


Palestine? They don't even have a nation, what difference does that make. And that corrupt terrorist Arafat can hardly be the spokesman for the Palestinian people.
Corrupt terrorist? Has it ever occured to you that Palestinians hate you becoz of that Black day or something?


That was back in Nasserite days when you were all communist bumchums! Soviet Union has gone now, and America is Egypt's pimp. Egyptians have shown interest in the K-8 trainer and the JF-17. True that doesn't necessarily mean they will buy them, but I don't hear them talking about LCA or Indian military hardware.
Just becoz they show inerest in some defence equipment doest mean jack. You get a lot of stuff from France, does it mean anything? They'll be always under USA's sphere of influence.



Saudi is a big player in terms of military, they spend more than the Indians do. It doesn't bother me why they support us, they can think we are their holy brothers in wahabism, as long as they buy tanks and military equipment, and send us a squadron of F-15s in case of an outburst of war against India. Don't forget all the Pakistani pilots operating Saudi jets.
You want to elminate wahabbis from Pakistan, but you also want Saudi's money to build your defences against India.It wont work both ways, you have to be a wahabbi to get their money, like now. Pakistan has been operating Saudi jets for a long time, it doesnt mean jack coz still the spare parts are from US and we all know how competent Saudis are.


Its a lot more difficult for India to eliminate Mullahs from India, because it could easily be perceived as some form of persection.
Nope, we have done that time and again. In India people still do believe in equal justice and our courts do operate regardless of religion, caste and creed and yeah ofcourse blanket pardons from army generals.


If hindu India made a similar announcement, there would be a massive outcry, and talk about how India oppresses minorities will be brought up, even if it isn't at all relavant.
India is not hindu, majority of Indians are, unlike ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan, so be specific. Do you really believe that Indians care about how Pakistanis think about them? Or how about this.... a public outcry that Pushtoons and balochis are being targeted by the establishment (Punjabis) ??


That was just fabrication some Indian newspaper, nothing major in terms of military has been signed between Iran and India.
I wasnt talking about the base sharing. We have a very comprehensive cooperation with Iran both economic and military. Pakistan is no where near India in regards with Iran. From LNG to Chahbahar port to Afghanistan, India is way ahead in the game.

" The emphasis of the Declaration is on building up a contemporary
relationship between India and Iran in the context of challenges of
the modern world and drawing upon their historical relationship and
interactions. "
http://www.irna.ir/khabar/india/news-e12.htm


20% of Pakistanis are SHIA, and Pakistan is neither sunni nor shia, it is muslim.
Yeah except Shias are killed by Sunnis in Pakistan unlike Iraq. Polly Sistani forgot to mention this.



They were islamic terrorists, we don't even know if they were Iraqi. I don't think all Iraqis feel the same way as them, and you should consider your fellow Indian fortunate that he wasn't butchered as well. Terrorists don't think rationally.
Yup, terrorists dont think rationally, let it be Iraq or Kashmir. Amen to that, but they are Arabs, they are mostly Iraqis and they are ofcourse muslims. While it is unfortunate that Pakistanis were killed, it just shows that the muslim brotherhood just dont exist as you claim.


Soviet Union was communist, and India sure did support them.
No, India was in to Non Aligned Movement. India actually helped both USA and USSR at one point of time unlike Pakistan.


In all the countries you named there, the ethnic Indians are hated! The local people despise them and there has been a lot of anti-Indian violence in all of them. Remember the attempted coup in Fiji?
A coup was attempted. Or how about this....Mohajir Mushraff overthrew Punjabi Nawaz Sheriff. Rest of the Fijians didnt hate them, or else an ethinc Indian wudnt be elected as a PM. Other than that most of the violence on ethnic Indians in some countries are purely economical and political reasons, its not hatred.


Financial might? India may be economically ahead of Pakistan but it stil has a long way before you can use confident terms like that.
Ofcourse, but how many countries in the world boast a foreign exchange kitty of more than $100 billion??


Thats just now, we still haven't sorted Kashmir out. I guarantee you once we accept to defer resolution of Kashmir and maybe bus Kalam or Singh to Lahore, Indians will start trusting us again. I'm willing to bet Indians will actually help Pakistan develop their economy in areas where India specialises in, such as IT, just as it is doing with China.

If you defer Kashmir, then it will be out of your hands for ever, thats why Pakistan keeps instigating this violence against the local Kashmiris much to their resentment. As I said we never trusted you for the last 56 years and I dont see we will do that in the future. Indian companies opened in China to get the local Chinese market, not to compete with India and eventually the profits are brought back to India. Chinese domestic market is estimate aroung $15-25 billion, its sad that Pakistan cant take advantage of it. Pakistan simply cant compete with any south East asian nation let alone India. Philippenes has more college grads and Phds than Pakistan.

Kalam/Singh will not get in to your bhai-bhai crap. Actually we dont believe in Mushraff, Jamali had a better chance than Mushraff. And all the peace talks happened coz of Vajpayee, and fortunately/unfortunately he is gone.



What are you talking about? Pakistan has condemned militancy in xinjiang and shot dead the militant leader of ETIM, and deported many more members running from Afghanistan. It isn't the 90s when ISI were secretly providing support for them. Now China held anti terrorist exercises with Pakistan in Xinjiang, and it is to become a permenant annual fixture.
Well, what makes you think that ISI can rein in the groups for ever?? ISI cant even stop the assasination attempts against the C-in-C Mushraff or Aziz. Anti terror excercises for 10 days every year doesnt matter much when the terrorists move freely for the rest of the year.


You could make the same case that the Soviets used India as a pawn to counter China and American influence in the region.
Have you ever heard of Soviet Union's bases in India ?? We havent had KGB running around New Delhi arresting Indian citizens. Thats the difference.


You already do, the whole thread is filled with racial slurs towards Pakistan and Pakistanis. I'm only answering in kind to make a point.
Actually its you who always hurl racial abuses in your posts. Just scroll back and read some of your posts in this thread and else where.


In that case do you deny India's military past in Saddam's Iraq? Gaddafi?
No, we didnt export/import missiles and nuclear components to Iraq or Libya. We did had other forms of cooperation and none denied it. Heck there is no point in denying it, coz USA would most prolly have seperate folders on every transaction we had, unlike Pakistan which still denies receiving No dongs and export of nuclear components and blue prints to NK, Libya and Iran even after conclusive proof from US. Remember blanket pardon? I hope AQK will write his memoirs one day and tell the truth to rest of the world.


To give President Musharraf a pat on the back and perhaps open up some new Pakistani school, but I can assure you she doesn't go hunting for militant camps in Kashmir.
May be you ought to read news papers. Read about Armitage's last 3-4 visits to South Asia for a start.



America and the west really are unsure about the whole Kashmiri issue. Not long ago the said there was an al-quaeda presence in Kashmir, and then 2 days related issued a full retraction. America doesn't really care about Kashmir as long a it doesn't boil over into too much of a serious problem. They are have all their concentration on catching Osama bin Laden.
ALQ does have connections with Pakistani militants in Kashmir. Terrorist groups like LeT, JeM are hell bent against USA and they fight boh in Afghanistan and Kashmir. So Kashmir and the terrorist groups operating in Kashmir are still important to them, if they need to put an end to terrorism, they have to squeeze the mother of all.



Saudis fund most of the madrassas in Pakistan (and have many all over the world), but the army and establishment are funded by Pakistan's federal budget.
Are you denying the fact that Saudi is funding your army establishments?? Heck even your federal budget get its cut from Saudis in terms of aid programs and oil discounts.


I don't have jihadi principles, believing Kashmir needs to be free isn't jihadi.
Any one who supports killing of innocent people and children in the name of religion (or a self induced cause) is a jehadi. You've done this multiple times in the past.


Gandhi for wanting freedom from the BRitish?
First you cannot compare Kashmir to British India. Kashmir is a part of India and they have a democratic govt elected by Kashmiris unlike British India.
Second Gandhi did not wield a AK-47 and killed innocent british women and children, he never ethnically cleansed muslims, sikhs etc bcoz he was a hindu.

Aryan
12 Aug 04,, 22:54
1971 is contemproary. I talked with many Bengalis here, they still do have a vivid memory of 1971. Bindhranwala got arms from Pakistan coz no one else was ready to arm him. Politics/Economics 101, not becoz they loved Pakistan.

Its a very complex relationship, but I dont say that we hate each other. We have a lot of agreements and dis-agreements with Bangalis.

If 1971 was such a vivid memory, why would so many Bangladeshis support the Pakistani team in a cricket match in Dhaka? Its like Armenians cheering on Turks at a home match.

http://bdsdf.ipbhost.com
Speak to any Bangladeshi on that forum, they all hate India. The same goes for Bangalis I've met here in MAnchester, they hate Indians, and West Bengali. Fuck knows why, but they all seem to.


May be or may be not. But our co-operation with SL is not just economic, as I said we just signed a defence accord with SL and we are going to sign one with Maldives.




We've been friends with Israel for the last 10 years and our relationship with Arabs hasnt changed a bit so far.

India has only started major defence contracts with Israel since 1998 when BJP came into power, and since then it has Israel has become India's second largest supplier of military equipment. You can't deny that is going to have a profound affect on India-Arab relations.


Corrupt terrorist? Has it ever occured to you that Palestinians hate you becoz of that Black day or something?

Not really, only Zia was in charge of a Jordanian brigade deployed against them. 99% of Palestinian don't even know who Zia is, let alone he commanded them. They hate the Jordanian royal family for it.


Just becoz they show inerest in some defence equipment doest mean jack. You get a lot of stuff from France, does it mean anything? They'll be always under USA's sphere of influence.

France under USA's sphere of influence? You'll have to explain that one to me.


You seem to elminate wahabbis from Pakistan, but you want Saudis money to build your defences against India.


Pakistan has been operating Saudi jets for a long time, it doesnt mean jack coz still the spare parts are from US and we all know how competent Saudis are.

Spare parts are only a problem in the long term. All wars with India have been very short and swift. If war broke out tomorrow and a fleet of Saudi F-15s piloted by PAF took off, any American imposition of spare parts wouldn't make a difference.


Nope, we have done that time and again. In India people still do believe in equal justice and our courts do operate regardless of religion, caste and creed and yeah ofcourse blanket pardons from army generals.

Then why hasn't a single hindu rioter been prosecuted? Its been five years now, if there was equal justice and courts operate regardless of religion, they would have been convicted by now.


India is not hindu, majority of Indians are unlike ISLAMIC republic of Pakistan, so be specific.

I said hindu simply because it was largely a non muslim country.


Do you really believe that we care about what Pakistan thinks about us?

No, but the arab muslim countries won't warm to it.


I wasnt talking about the base sharing. We have a very comprehensive cooperation with Iran both economic and military. Pakistan is no where near India in regards with Iran. From LNG to Chahbahar port to Afghanistan, India is way ahead in the game.

You know what I think about economic trading. Buying oil or gas from a country doesn't make them your allies. Iran has always helped Pakistan over India, in the 1971 war the Shah sent us F86s.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2600439.stm
Iran are just using friendly language with India to get them to buy their gas (like in the quote you used), their real contracts military involve Russia, Pakistan and China.





Yeah except Shias are killed by Sunnis unlike Iraq.
Saddam was a sunni, he killed shias. And in Pakistan the violence is from foreign Al quida agents, who attack sensitive shia and sunni targets to try to incite violence.


Yup, terrorists dont think rationally, amen to that, but they are Arabs, they are mostly Iraqis and they are ofcourse muslims.

By that bit of logic, Communist indians who support Palestinian terrorists are Indian, and are hindu. Would that mean either of those groups support Palestine?


While it is unfortunate that Pakistanis were killed, it just shows that the muslim brotherhood just dont exist as you claim.

I don't necessarily believe in muslim brotherhood, but the same Iraqi terrorists kill Iraqis, or fellow arabs. Does that mean Iraqi/arab brotherhood or unity doesn't exist? You can't use an isolated example by a bunch of terrorists to generalise.


No, India was in to Non Aligned Movement. India actually helped both USA and USSR at one point of time. But Pakistan was very much with in USA sphere from the beginning.

India supported Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and was its only ally in the region at the time. When it mattered, India was pro Soviet.


The coup is attempted. The people dont hate them, or else an ethinc Indian wudnt be a PM in fiji. Other than that most of the violence are purely economical.

The coup is an indication of much of the hatred of the ethnic Indian community there. If you want, I can give you examples of serious ethnic violence and distrust in each of the countries you've mentioned, plus a few others you haven't. I'm not supporting it, but you can't say Indians are popular in those regions.


Ofcourse, but how many countries in the world has more than $100 billion in foreign exchange??

How many have a population of over a billion? If you take India's population and land size into account, it isn't so impressive.


If you defer Kashmir, then it will be out of your hands for ever, thats why Pakistan keeps instigating this violence against the local Kashmiris much to their resentment.

Well going into this in depth will deserve a thread of its own, but I don't think no matter how much money India pumps into Kashmir, Kashmiris will call themselves Indian. The best they can get is them calling themselves just Kashmiri, and at worst (for Indians) they'll call themselves Kashmiri Pakistanis.



Well what makes you think that ISI can rein in the groups for ever. ISI cant even stop the assasination attempts against C-in-C Mushraff. Anti terror excercises for 10 days every year doesnt matter much when the terrorists move freely for the rest of the year.

I don't. Terrorists are hard to stop, just as the israelis about that. But my point was that Pakistan is actively helping China combat terrorism in her borders.


Have you ever heard of Soviet Union having bases in India ?? We havent had KGB running around New Delhi arresting Indian citizens. Thats the difference.

You can't compare the cold war with the war on terror. In the cold war the enemies were easy to find, whereas the fighters in this war need to be found.


o we didnt export or import missiles and nuclear components to Iraq or Libya. We did had other forms of cooperation and we dont deny it. Heck there is no point in denying it, coz USA would most prolly have seperate folders on every transaction we had, unlike Pakistan which still denies receiving No dongs.

We have accepted we've received missile technology from north Korea. We didn't just need missiles, we wanted the capacity to build them. Manufacturing missiles is not something simple like a car, it has a multitude of complex parts, all of which have little information on the public domain. The koreans gave us a considerable about of that information, perhaps even parts and machinery used to create missiles, but that doesn't mean Korea has been shipping us Nodongs.


Yes and ALQ does have connections with Pakistani militants in Kashmir. Terrorist groups like LeT, JeM are hell bent against USA and so yeah Kashmir is still important to them, if they need to put an end to the terrorism.;

Try convincing the Americans on that AQ is based in Kashmir, they certainly don't believe it as much as the Indians do.


Are you denying the fact that Saudi is funding your army establishments. Heck even your federal budget get its cut from Saudis in terms of aid programs and oil discounts.

AFter the nuclear tests in 1998, Saudi agreed to defer oil payments for Pakistani oil imports for a number of years. It was stopped last year and payment is the same as before. Thats totally different to what you are implying, that saudis have a stake in every aspect of Pakistani life, or even teh budget.



any one who supports killing of innocent people and children in the name of religion is a jehadi. And you've done this multiple times in the past.

I've never supported killing innocent people and children, you'll have to quote me somewhere saying it.


First you cannot compare Kashmir to British India. Kashmir is a part of India and they have a democratic govt elected by Kashmiris.

Democratic by according to India? Human rights abuses have been widely documented in Kashmir by security forces, and so has undemocratic policy. India has also supported pandit terrorist groups in Kashmir, such as teh Jammu and Kashmir Ikhwaan.


Second Gandhi did not wield a AK-47 and killed innocen british womena nd children, heck he never ethnically cleansed people from other religion bcoz he was a hindu.

Neither have I.

Jay
12 Aug 04,, 23:36
If 1971 was such a vivid memory, why would so many Bangladeshis support the Pakistani team in a cricket match in Dhaka? Its like Armenians cheering on Turks at a home match.
Doesnt make a difference. Even some Indians cheered for Pakistan during 1992 world cup.


Speak to any Bangladeshi on that forum, they all hate India. The same goes for Bangalis I've met here in MAnchester, they hate Indians, and West Bengali. Fuck knows why, but they all seem to.
Most of the forum goers are pretty young. And I dont know about Machester but here in NY none of them hated Indians.



India has only started major defence contracts with Israel since 1998 when BJP came into power, and since then it has Israel has become India's second largest supplier of military equipment. You can't deny that is going to have a profound affect on India-Arab relations.
Even then, India has voted against Israel consistently in the UN. We never changed our policy towards Arabs.



Not really, only Zia was in charge of a Jordanian brigade deployed against them. 99% of Palestinian don't even know who Zia is, let alone he commanded them. They hate the Jordanian royal family for it.
Ive seen some Palestinians in the PDF boaqrd accusing Pakistan some time back. They dont know about Zia but they know that Pakistan was also responsible for it.


France under USA's sphere of influence? You'll have to explain that one to me.
Was talking about Egypt.



Spare parts are only a problem in the long term. All wars with India have been very short and swift. If war broke out tomorrow and a fleet of Saudi F-15s piloted by PAF took off, any American imposition of spare parts wouldn't make a difference.
Very short and swift. Then you wont have enuff time to bring the jets from Saudi. Not to mention that with out US/UK technicians you cannot rely on them. You do know that even during war times the planes require maintanence, right??



Then why hasn't a single hindu rioter been prosecuted? Its been five years now, if there was equal justice and courts operate regardless of religion, they would have been convicted by now.
And who said that there are no convictions??
http://www.flonnet.com/fl2025/stories/20031219004003900.htm


I said hindu simply because it was largely a non muslim country.
Thats highly illogical. do you mind if I call Pakistan as Punjab coz majority of them are Punjabis??



You know what I think about economic trading. Buying oil or gas from a country doesn't make them your allies. Iran has always helped Pakistan over India, in the 1971 war the Shah sent us F6s.

Iran are just using friendly language with India to get them to buy their gas (like in the quote you used), their real contracts military involve Russia, Pakistan and China.
Actually we have a lot other things going on, like for instance the Chah Bahar port. The main reason for Iran warming up to Pakistan is for the passage of gas and oil pipelines. Just read the link you posted, it says it all.


No, but the arab muslim countries won't warm to it.
None of them seem to care about it, there is no historical precedence, even some Arab and Asian islamic nations wanted India to join OIC.



Saddam was a sunni, he killed shias. And in Pakistan the violence is from foreign Al quida agents, who attack sensitive shia and sunni targets to try to incite violence.
Just dont blanket everybody as foreign and ALQ stooges. Are you denying the fact that Shias and sunnis fought each other in Pakistan??



By that bit of logic, Communist indians who support Palestinian terrorists are Indian, and are hindu. Would that mean either of those groups support Palestine?
Again, India was never a communist state neither we had a dictator. As a matter of fact India does support Palestine.



I don't necessarily believe in muslim brotherhood, but the same Iraqi terrorists kill Iraqis, or fellow arabs. Does that mean Iraqi/arab brotherhood or unity doesn't exist? You can't use an isolated example by a bunch of terrorists to generalise.
Thats what I'm saying, first the Arabs as an ethnic group dont have a bonding, its quite stupid to talk about islamic brotherhood. Ummah does not exist and will not exist in the near future.


India supported Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and was its only ally in the region at the time. When it mattered, India was pro Soviet.
India never supported the invasion, lets say we sayed neutral. We didnt grant bases to soviets to fight against Afghanistan, like Pakistan did for US or for China in the fuure.



The coup is an indication of much of the hatred of the ethnic Indian community there. If you want, I can give you examples of serious ethnic violence and distrust in each of the countries you've mentioned, plus a few others you haven't. I'm not supporting it, but you can't say Indians are popular in those regions.
As I said, its just a group of people, not the whole nation. There were countries like Uganda, Kenya, Burma who drove away all the immigrants to get hold of their wealth. As i said its purely economical and political violnce instigated by leaders to come to power.


How many have a population of over a billion? If you take India's population and land size into account, it isn't so impressive.
But GDP really doesnt matter for this discussion when we talk about financial might. India will be able to spend a wholesome amount of $120 billion dollars, and that matters in the world financial community.



Well going into this in depth will deserve a thread of its own, but I don't think no matter how much money India pumps into Kashmir, Kashmiris will call themselves Indian.
Actually other than Srinagar most of them are already call themselves as Indians. If Pakistan stops their "moral" support crap, the whole of J&K will call themselves as Kashmir Indians.


The best they can get is them calling themselves just Kashmiri, and at worst (for Indians) they'll call themselves Kashmiri Pakistanis.
Actually I dont think they would do that, coz not all of em are warm enuff to annexe Kashmir to Pakistan.



I don't. Terrorists are hard to stop, just as the israelis about that. But my point was that Pakistan is actively helping China combat terrorism in her borders.
But the Palestinians are fighting against Israelis. In this case Pakistan is China's ally and what would China do when terrorists trained in Pakistan cross the border and bomb Chinese cities??



You can't compare the cold war with the war on terror. In the cold war the enemies were easy to find, whereas the fighters in this war need to be found.
Well, it doesnt really matter what kind war it is. Its the sheer gesture of letting others to run your country makes you a pawn.


perhaps even parts and machinery used to create missiles, but that doesn't mean Korea has been shipping us Nodongs.
Hmm, FAS and Janes dont think the way you do.



Try convincing the Americans on that AQ is based in Kashmir, they certainly don't believe it as much as the Indians do.
I never said ALQ is based in Kashmir. They are based in Pakistan and other nations, but other nations do know that Kashmiri terrorists like Let and JeM are also a part of ALQ, and so the state dept categorized them as terrorist outfits which forced the ISI to rename them.


Saudi agreed to defer oil payments for Pakistani oil imports for a number of years. It was stopped last year and payment is the same as before.
It doesnt matter they pay you in Dirhams or dollars or oil.


I've never supported killing innocent people and children, you'll have to quote me somewhere saying it.
Actually you did, remember the bus bombing in Kasmir where 32 people died??


Democratic by according to India? Human rights abuses have been widely documented in Kashmir by security forces, and so has undemocratic policy. India has also supported pandit terrorist groups in Kashmir, such as teh Jammu and Kashmir Ikhwaan.

Democratic according to every body, we had neutral observers in Kashmir for the last 2 elections. Prolly the locals were armed to kill the terrorists from Pakistan to prevent them from killing more Pandits and Muslims in the name of freedom fight.


Neither have I.
Then whats the point in bringing Gandhi to the discussion??

Ray
13 Aug 04,, 07:23
1. As a Bengali with East Bengal (now Bangladesh) roots, it is not correct to say that Bangladeshi dislike Indians or West Bengalis. That is an ignorant statement.

Bangladesh's national anthem is Amar Sonar Bangla, written by the Nobel laureate Rabindranath Tagore (a Hindu and West Bengali).

Bangladeshis come in hordes to India and in Calcuttta, there are a whole lot of them.

They visited Ajmer again in hordes to the Sufi Shrine there - Ajmer sharif.

More later.

2. The Ikhwans of Kashmir are not Hindus or Christians. They are Moslems and are Kashmiris who were terrorists trained in Pakistan but now have turned against Pakistan.

3. Israel has always been a friend of India, even before India recognised Israel. Right now, the friendship is rather strong. The Palestinians have no complaints on this. In fact, they have said India has a right to her sovreign decision.

India had got Israeli arms even before the current buys from Israel.

Jay
13 Aug 04,, 15:33
If 1971 was such a vivid memory, why would so many Bangladeshis support the Pakistani team in a cricket match in Dhaka? Its like Armenians cheering on Turks at a home match.

From todays news:

Humayan Azad, a professor at Dhaka University, was seriously wounded in February's knife attack on the campus. He blamed hardline Islamic groups.

He was recently denounced by a number of Islamist parties in Bangladesh for writing a book critical of some Pakistanis for their role before Bangladeshi independence in 1971.

....The professor, author of about 50 books, said he believed the attack on him was carried out by those people "who believe in the ideas of fundamentalism".

He pointed out that two daily newspapers seen as the mouthpieces of hardline Islamic groups had written articles against him, and an MP had severely criticised him following the publication of his latest book.

Entitled Pak Sar Zamin Sad Bad - the first line of the Pakistan national anthem - it strongly criticised the rise of Islamic extremism in Bangladeshi society in recent years.

Several Islamic groups quickly denounced the novel and demanded it should be banned.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3561184.stm

Aryan
13 Aug 04,, 15:38
Doesnt make a difference. Even some Indians cheered for Pakistan during 1992 world cup.

But India didn't accuse Pakistan of wholescale genocide at any point,


Most of the forum goers are pretty young. And I dont know about Machester but here in NY none of them hated Indians.

I don't think all Bangalis hate india, but the general feeling towards them is negative. I've created a thread to get a scope on their feelings.

http://bdsdf.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2076


Even then, India has voted against Israel consistently in the UN. We never changed our policy towards Arabs.


Ive seen some Palestinians in the PDF boaqrd accusing Pakistan some time back. They dont know about Zia but they know that Pakistan was also responsible for it.

I've met dozens of Palestinians (or Arabs claiming to be Palestinian) who don't hate Pakistan. They are pretty much neutral in the conflict. But you can't deny


Very short and swift. Then you wont have enuff time to bring the jets from Saudi. Not to mention that with out US/UK technicians you cannot rely on them. You do know that even during war times the planes require maintanence, right??

Saudis planes can reach Pakistan within hours, Saudis also have in air refueling capacity so may be able to launch an attack on Indian forward bases without having to stop off in Pakistan.

Yes maintainance is very important in war, but if the war lasts say 6 days, its a lot less likely to require spare parts than say an all out 2 year war, that would certainly favour India.


And who said that there are no convictions??
http://www.flonnet.com/fl2025/stories/20031219004003900.htm

From the article you posted:

Even high-profile cases - Naroda Patiya, Chamanpura in Ahmedabad (where ex-Member of Parliament Ehsan Jafri and 67 others were killed), Odh village and Sardarpura village - have been riddled with discrepancies. The Supreme Court has stayed the trial of these and the Godhra case. "In most cases, the police have not even registered First Information Reports of several witnesses. They have closed many cases claiming lack of evidence. But they have not even bothered to investigate them," Harish Salve said. "When the accused are arrested, the public prosecutors do not even bother to oppose their bail applications. In cases where the accused have been acquitted, the State prosecutors have not even appealed against the judgment."

"Public prosecutors, too, many of whom are VHP members, seem to be more interested in shielding the accused than representing riot victims. Flimsy police cases are further aiding the accused. The police have not taken down victims' statements or collected evidence properly. Witnesses to the massacres (including those of Chamanpura and Sardarpura) are demanding re-investigations into the case. That prompted the NHRC to ask for CBI inquiries into the main communal violence cases as well as the Sabarmati Express massacre. "

All in all that article discredits India's secular and democratic claims. You get prosecutors who are members of Hindu nationalist parties. Its would be the same as Pakistan using MMA members against defendants in Blasphemy cases.


Thats highly illogical. do you mind if I call Pakistan as Punjab coz majority of them are Punjabis??

Technically you could, but people do generally identify India with hindus. I didn't mean anything else by it other than a passing reference.


Actually we have a lot other things going on, like for instance the Chah Bahar port. The main reason for Iran warming up to Pakistan is for the passage of gas and oil pipelines. Just read the link you posted, it says it all.

We aren't talking about economic deals, Pakistan also wants the Iran-India pipeline so we can earn $400m a year revenue from it. Doesn't mean Indo-Pak relations are rosy.

"That the Khatami visit has generated ripples across the region is reflected in the speculation in the Pakistani media that India is seeking a military base in Chah Bahar. New Delhi has rubbished these reports and Iran is too proud to give bases to external powers. Equally baseless has been the speculation about Indo-Iranian defence cooperation. Contrary to reports, no defence agreements were signed when the Chief of Indian Naval Staff, Admiral Madhavendra Singh, visited Tehran two weeks ago. "

"During Mr. Khatami's visit, the two sides agreed to cooperate in military education and training and initiate high-level defence exchanges. India and Iran can be said to have begun mere defence diplomacy; there is a very long way to go before they can think of substantive military cooperation."

http://www.meadev.nic.in/opn/2003feb/03hin.htm

Pakistan on the other hand, has had a strong military cooperation with Iran.

None of them seem to care about it, there is no historical precedence, even some Arab and Asian islamic nations wanted India to join OIC.


Just dont blanket everybody as foreign and ALQ stooges. Are you denying the fact that Shias and sunnis fought each other in Pakistan??

Yes, it was created by AQ extremists first targeting mosques in shia areas, and when that failed, they had a go at sunni seminaries. Despite all the killings, sunni and shia community leaders urged their followers not to retaliate and thank god people stuck together.


Again, India was never a communist state neither we had a dictator. As a matter of fact India does support Palestine.



Thats what I'm saying, first the Arabs as an ethnic group dont have a bonding, its quite stupid to talk about islamic brotherhood. Ummah does not exist and will not exist in the near future.


India never supported the invasion, lets say we sayed neutral. We didnt grant bases to soviets to fight against Afghanistan, like Pakistan did for US or for China in the fuure.



As I said, its just a group of people, not the whole nation. There were countries like Uganda, Kenya, Burma who drove away all the immigrants to get hold of their wealth. As i said its purely economical and political violnce instigated by leaders to come to power.

The causes of the violence may be economical, political or even religious (what violence isn't). But it is going on and most of the countries you see an ethnic indian population, you see strong ethnic tension.

Malaysia http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1228679.stm
Fiji http://www.fisiusa.org/fisi_News_items/news17.htm

There are plenty others.



Actually other than Srinagar most of them are already call themselves as Indians. If Pakistan stops their "moral" support crap, the whole of J&K will call themselves as Kashmir Indians.

Then what about all the insurgencies that have happened there, such as 1989? Pakistan did provide assistance when they were in action, but they were all started by local elements. And Kashmir will always have Pakistan's moral support. One of the biggest sources of funds to the Kashmiri cause is here in England, we'e got the largest Kashmiri community outside Kashmir and Pakistan. Kashmiri businessmen donate alot of money to the Kashmiri struggle, something that has nothing to do with Pakistan.


Actually I dont think they would do that, coz not all of em are warm enuff to annexe Kashmir to Pakistan.

Trust me, if Pakistani tanks ever drove through Srinagar, they'd get their Pakistani flags out and celebrate.


But the Palestinians are fighting against Israelis. In this case Pakistan is China's ally and what would China do when terrorists trained in Pakistan cross the border and bomb Chinese cities??

First Pakistan has never trained ETIM terrorists, and never will. China alleged they were receiving training in Taliban Afghanistan, and it was backed up when ETIM terrorists were caught fleeing to Pakistan by the the army.


Well, it doesnt really matter what kind war it is. Its the sheer gesture of letting others to run your country makes you a pawn.

Then we are all pawns, like Asim said the world is like a chessboard, with Republicans and Democrats being the players.


I never said ALQ is based in Kashmir. They are based in Pakistan and other nations, but other nations do know that Kashmiri terrorists like Let and JeM are also a part of ALQ, and so the state dept categorized them as terrorist outfits which forced the ISI to rename them.

Pakistan banned them too, but they renamed themselves and reorganised.


It doesnt matter they pay you in Dirhams or dollars or oil.

They didn't gift it to us, they gave it on deferred payment. And that is a large jump from claiming


Actually you did, remember the bus bombing in Kasmir where 32 people died??

Those were soldiers, not civilians.


Democratic according to every body, we had neutral observers in Kashmir for the last 2 elections. Prolly the locals were armed to kill the terrorists from Pakistan to prevent them from killing more Pandits and Muslims in the name of freedom fight.

Neutral observers? Who told you that? Here is a statement by the Chief Election Commissioner during his visit to Jammu & Kashmir from 16-18 June, 2002:

Our law on elections, unlike the election systems of some other countries, does not allow foreign observers. On the other hand, it enjoins the Election Commission to appoint its own observers who are senior civil servants. India has a large pool of neutral civil servants.

As in elections in other parts of the country, in the coming Jammu and Kashmir elections, the Election Commission will rely on media reports including those in the foreign media. So the media, including foreign media, will have easy access to polling stations.

The Election Commission shall not invite any group, body or organization to function as observers for the J & K election. However, if any individual who is associated with the conduct of elections in his country and that country has good democratic credentials, then in his individual capacity, he can come to see the election, subject, of course, to the person’s getting necessary governmental clearance.

So basically, you can only come if you come from a "democratic country" and still you'll need governmental clearance.


Then whats the point in bringing Gandhi to the discussion??

He was also a freedom fighter.

Jay
13 Aug 04,, 20:36
But India didn't accuse Pakistan of wholescale genocide at any point,
Ah, we consider Pakistanis as our mortal enemies, its far worse than that!



I don't think all Bangalis hate india, but the general feeling towards them is negative. I've created a thread to get a scope on their feelings.
Do let us know what their feelings are. I do know that we have certain sour bi-lateral issues to be taken care of.



Saudis planes can reach Pakistan within hours, Saudis also have in air refueling capacity so may be able to launch an attack on Indian forward bases without having to stop off in Pakistan.
Do you think Saudi's will directly fly planes against India/IAF incase of a war? I doubt it. They might give you some planes, they are not gonna send in their whole force to assist PAF.



Yes maintainance is very important in war, but if the war lasts say 6 days, its a lot less likely to require spare parts than say an all out 2 year war, that would certainly favour India.
If you are going to conduct raiding sorties then lets hope you do have mechanics to service the plan even its a short and swift action fight.



All in all that article discredits India's secular and democratic claims. You get prosecutors who are members of Hindu nationalist parties. Its would be the same as Pakistan using MMA members against defendants in Blasphemy cases.

No it just shows even if the lower echelons are sleepy and corrupt there is always a guiding force in the top to set things right. Public prosecuters are like District Attorneys in US, mostly they lean towards a political party. If its not the local police then we have CBI, if its the lower courts then we have high courts and Supreme courts that function with out any partiality. You cannot break the law and pardon people on your own.


Technically you could, but people do generally identify India with hindus. I didn't mean anything else by it other than a passing reference.
Please dont do a disservice to 130 million odd muslims by calling hindu India.



"During Mr. Khatami's visit, the two sides agreed to cooperate in military education and training and initiate high-level defence exchanges. India and Iran can be said to have begun mere defence diplomacy; there is a very long way to go before they can think of substantive military cooperation."
As I said, we have defence and economic cooperation with Iran, it may not be substantial as the article puts forth like a base in Iran, but what does Pakistan has with Iran?? Dont quote the Shah regime, coz they aint ruling Iran anymore.



The causes of the violence may be economical, political or even religious (what violence isn't). But it is going on and most of the countries you see an ethnic indian population, you see strong ethnic tension.

Malaysia http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/as...fic/1228679.stm
Fiji http://www.fisiusa.org/fisi_News_items/news17.htm

The same can be said about Chinese. Read about the ethnic fighting between Malays and Chinese in Malaysia, Koreans and locals in Los Angeles, Jews in Germany, it happens all the time. If one ethnic group lives off well, defnitely the others would be pissed. But all these countries always had a friendly or brotherly rappo with India from Fiji to Malaysia. The govts of Malaysia and Singapore woo Indians with this ethnic bonding, it may be the visit of Malaysian and Singaporean premiers or aiding our Social and other infrastrcuture projects.



Then what about all the insurgencies that have happened there, such as 1989? Pakistan did provide assistance when they were in action, but they were all started by local elements.
Pakistan provided arms for these local insurgents. JKLF is prolly the first armed resistance movement and Yasin denounced his arms couple years back and started a political party. Most of the terrorists in Pakistan are not Kashmiris and they dont fight for Kashmiris. They are tasked with a special agenda by ISI, secure the head waters of Indus, revenge for 1971 war and ofcourse whole Islamist brotherhood thing.


And Kashmir will always have Pakistan's moral support.
Then you cannot expect a meaningful gesture from India. We'll stick to our own "stick" policy.


One of the biggest sources of funds to the Kashmiri cause is here in England, we'e got the largest Kashmiri community outside Kashmir and Pakistan. Kashmiri businessmen donate alot of money to the Kashmiri struggle, something that has nothing to do with Pakistan.
Please save that lecture. Markaz Dawa Al Irshad (LeT), Harkat-ul-Ansar, JeM are all based on Pakistan, they get trained in Pakistan and they get armed in Pakistan. If Pakistan stops this "moral" support, then we'll know the real freedom fighters.



Trust me, if Pakistani tanks ever drove through Srinagar, they'd get their Pakistani flags out and celebrate.
Trust me, other than Srinagar downtown if you wave a Pakistani flag you'll be stoned to death by the locals.



First Pakistan has never trained ETIM terrorists, and never will. China alleged they were receiving training in Taliban Afghanistan, and it was backed up when ETIM terrorists were caught fleeing to Pakistan by the the army.
You always say the same thing to India, that you just provide diplomatic and moral support for the muslim bretherns in Kashmir. But how many countries believe Pakistan? Most of them called Pakistan to stop this cross border terrorim. How would China know that you dont train them, when they cross in to China from Pakistan??


Then we are all pawns, like Asim said the world is like a chessboard, with Republicans and Democrats being the players.
Not all countries in the world work this way. There are lot more parties in the world.


Pakistan banned them too, but they renamed themselves and reorganised.
Which just speaks about Pakistan's real intentions, you banned them to appease the US, to relieve from US pressure. Which incidentally proves my point that US does care about Kashmir and the terrorists operating out of Kashmir. Also it shows how insincere Pakistan is about the talks and CBM's with India and peace in Kashmir in general.



They didn't gift it to us, they gave it on deferred payment. And that is a large jump from claiming
http://www.iags.org/es060903.html
http://countrystudies.us/pakistan/47.htm


Riyad stopped charging Pakistan for most of Saudi oil in 1998 after Western sanctions were imposed on Islamabad. The sanctions were imposed in wake of Pakistan's nuclear weapons tests, Middle East Newsline reported. Abdullah was said to have reached formal agreement by Pakistan to transfer nuclear weapons to Saudi Arabia to help face external threats, particularly those from neighboring Iran. Abdullah, who visited Pakistan in October, was said to have agreed to continue deferred payments by Pakistan for the Saudi oil. The Saudi loans, estimated at $2 billion, were later turned into grants.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/pause.htm

So its is indeed free oil (money) to Pakistan!!!


Those were soldiers, not civilians.
I guess you have a very short memory...it was women and children who got killed by the bomb blast while going for a vacation in a local bus.



Neutral observers? Who told you that? Here is a statement by the Chief Election Commissioner during his visit to Jammu & Kashmir from 16-18 June, 2002:
Our law on elections, unlike the election systems of some other countries, does not allow foreign observers. On the other hand, it enjoins the Election Commission to appoint its own observers who are senior civil servants. India has a large pool of neutral civil servants.
Yes, as a policy we dont invite any foreign observers and entertain them in a official capacity. But we did had foreign visitors in their individual capacity to overlook our claims about free and afair elections in Kashmir, including foreign jorunalists.


J&K elections were certified by all neutral and international observers as absolutely free and fair, without a trace of fraud or coercion. Claims from the Pakistani propaganda machine that elections were "heavily rigged" and that voters were "dragged out of their homes" by Indian security men fell flat when irregularities were alleged in specific constituencies which did not even go to polls in one particular phase!
http://www.kashmirherald.com/featuredarticle/twoelectionstwomisnomers.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2313347.stm
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2002/08/05/stories/2002080500271000.htm


So basically, you can only come if you come from a "democratic country" and still you'll need governmental clearance.
Yeah, we wouldnt want terrorists from Pakistan or Saudi to certify our democratic exercise. Heck, can a Pakistani General know to asses Pakistani civilian institutions, let alone India's ??


He was also a freedom fighter.
but as I said he didnt kill nobody becoz they dont follow his idealogy or religion. Thats why Mohammed Sayed is a terrorist and Gandhi is a noble soul. Moro over Gandhi fought for independence down and dirty unlike Sayed who sits some where in Pakistan and sends in brain washed poor kids to die in the nands of our security forces.

Ironduke
15 Aug 04,, 01:40
O boy this coming out of a ****---whos country was created only caz of religion? :biggrin: No wonder you are really a **** filth, or you will not generalize a whole nation (afghan or Pashtons wt ever u call us)! Indeed we are not a fun of cultureless, and identity less *****---if you take Islam out of Pakistan-----ethically and legally you will go back to India----while we Pasthons have more then 5000 years of history, identity and culture other then Islam!
I wish for a day when the filthy of ***** and filth of Arab culture---Islam is uprooted from land of Pashtons form once and for all!

Also if you need prove for Pakistan being heaven of terrorist then read some news, all the terrorist which were apprehended so far has been caught in Pakistan—special cities in Panjab, and Sihnd! What this tells you ha?
Watch the language.

Jay
17 Aug 04,, 20:55
The causes of the violence may be economical, political or even religious (what violence isn't). But it is going on and most of the countries you see an ethnic indian population, you see strong ethnic tension.

Malaysia http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/as...fic/1228679.stm
Fiji http://www.fisiusa.org/fisi_News_items/news17.htm

There are plenty others.

I'm not trying to give life to this dead topic...but just an overhelming news regarding ethnic Indians (Tamizhs in this case).

Law Minister Jayakumar has sworn in as Singapore's Deputy Prime Minister. Other than that Minister for Education, Minister for Community Development, Trade and Industry are also etnic Indians. On top of it, Singapore President Mr.Nathan is also an ethnic Indian.

Asim Aquil
17 Aug 04,, 21:10
I'm not trying to give life to this dead topic...but just an overhelming news regarding ethnic Indians (Tamizhs in this case).

Law Minister Jayakumar has sworn in as Singapore's Deputy Prime Minister. Other than that Minister for Education, Minister for Community Development, Trade and Industry are also etnic Indians. On top of it, Singapore President Mr.Nathan is also an ethnic Indian.

Bet they're all Malbari Indians. Umar Sharif (famous Pakistani comedian) made a joke when he was overwhelmed by seeing the amount of Malbaris in Dubai, hes like who says Armstrong was the 1st man on the moon? When he landed there, a man came up to him and went "Randay chai parcel?" (Tamil or Malayali for "Shall I parcel two cups of tea?" - Awesome tea btw!). They're EVERYWHERE!

Jay
18 Aug 04,, 14:15
Nope, Tamizhs are different from Malayalees in linguistic and in modern state perspective. Particularly the a majority of later tamizhs in Srilanka (plantation), Singapore, Malaysia, fiji, South Africa are exclusively tamizhs. They went as farm, estate, plantation and for other labor work during the british raj. Malayalees in middle east is a fairly recent one...like 30-50 years.

Ray
18 Aug 04,, 20:47
Aryan,

You are the best thing that happened to me on a lousy day.

You make me laugh a lot. You are very humourous and cute.

I beleive it is good for the health.

Thanks, old tyke.

Don't disappoint me.

Asim Aquil
19 Aug 04,, 23:13
Aryan,

You are the best thing that happened to me on a lousy day.

You make me laugh a lot. You are very humourous and cute.

I beleive it is good for the health.

Thanks, old tyke.

Don't disappoint me.

why so bum?

Ray
20 Aug 04,, 06:05
why so bum?

Because I missed the Jay Leno show and the top bum Asim Aqil show on WAB. That, why super bum. Got that?

Samudra
03 Sep 04,, 12:30
Heard of Mother Teresa? She was a Christian, but India gave her the highest honour. It may surprise you, I was responsible for organising her funeral. Saw the TV?

Ray ( now i think i should add a 'sir' , but then ;) )

Salut!

Question . when the president came to place the reath, why was something like a iron block placed nearby ?

Maybe i saw it somewhere else..i was a kid back then.

Ray
03 Sep 04,, 19:32
The way this thread is meandering and suggesting that the only way to peace is 'donating' whatever is claimed by China as some countries have done with lands that are not legally theirs. Notwithstanding, the great benefit reaped thereof.

I have only a rhetoric question - would you donate your hovel, unless it does not belong to you? I am sure a poor man who has a roof over his head would not. But if he is a squatter, fine he loses it because it makes no difference, but he surely canwatc the fun and then see that both sink so as to usurp it again. Clever!