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visioninthedark
28 Jul 04,, 14:28
http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/jul2004-daily/28-07-2004/oped/o2.htm

Two headlines

Two headlines last week showed just how racist western Europeans are. One, quoting a Commission for Racial Equality survey, revealed that 90 per cent of white people in Britain have few or no non-white friends. The other was Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s blunt statement that "we see the spread of the wildest anti-Semitism (in France).If I had to advise our brothers in France, I’d tell them one thing: move to Israel as soon as possible. I say that to Jews all around the world, but there (in France) I think it’s a must, and they have to move immediately."

There is no doubt that anti-Semitic incidents are on the rise in France: from 593 reported attacks or threats against France’s 600,000 Jews in 2003 to 510 in only the first six months of this year. There’s not much doubt that racism flourishes in the United Kingdom, either: in last month’s elections for the European Parliament, British voters sent eleven members of the upstart UK Independence Party, whose rhetoric includes a lot of coded racism, to represent the country in Brussels. And yet...

Yet this picture seems much too stark and simple to me. I have lived in London for a long time (though I am not British), and while I know that things are different in rural parts of England and in some post industrial urban slums up north, what I see in my own streets is a society that is pretty much at ease with racial diversity and (especially in the younger age-groups) happy to party together. More like Toronto than Chicago, if that means anything to you.

We spend a lot of time in France, too. Some of it is in Paris, looking after my wife’s almost-bag-lady aunt, who lives in the rougher part of town and is now pretty much alone in the world. She’s an unashamed racist - she’s in her late seventies, and she lost her husband in the Algerian war - but people of every race in the neighbourhood are very good about looking after her. She tolerates it, and they tolerate her tolerating it. It doesn’t feel like a racist hell.

So how to explain the gulf between these personal observations and those alarmist headlines? Start with this wave of anti-Semitism in France. Even Sharon conceded that this is not a revival of traditional Christian anti-Semitism. "In France today, about 10 per cent of the population are Muslims," he explained, and "that gets a different kind of anti-Semitism, based on anti-Israeli feelings and propaganda."

Fair enough, though the real figure for France is six per cent Muslim - but in that case why is there no similar wave of anti-Semitism in Britain, where at least three or four per cent of the population is Muslim and the Jewish population is second only to France’s in Europe? The answer, obviously, is that most Muslims in France are Arabs, who feel strongly about Israel, while most Muslims in Britain are from non-Arab countries, principally Pakistan, India, Bangladesh and Turkey, where the Arab-Israeli dispute is much further down the local agenda.

They are not exclusively Arab gangs. They will usually include Turks, eastern Europeans, west Africans and Afro-Caribbeans, as well as white French working-class kids whose families have been dumped in the same high-rises. But all these kids have adopted the stone-throwing Palestinian children of the Intifada as their model of defiance of "the power" that marginalises them. French Jews, redefined as honorary Israelis, then become the targets of their wrath.

And what about those 90 per cent of white British people who had "few or no" non-whites among there ten to twenty closest friends? It’s the old headline trick: pick the worst possible number and highlight it. In fact, the same survey shows that 46 per cent of white people have at least one non-white friend in their inner circle, and that 47 per cent of Asian and black Britons say that most or all of their friends are white.

The moral? Believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you read. Things are not as bad as they seem.

Aryan
28 Jul 04,, 15:53
UK Independence Party aren't a racist party, they have a number of Asian and black members standing for MEP seats. I'm going to vote for them next elections.

eMGee
28 Jul 04,, 16:01
http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/jul2004-daily/28-07-2004/oped/o2.htm

Two headlines

Two headlines last week showed just how racist western Europeans are. One, quoting a Commission for Racial Equality survey, revealed that 90 per cent of white people in Britain have few or no non-white friends. The other was Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s blunt statement that "we see the spread of the wildest anti-Semitism (in France).If I had to advise our brothers in France, I’d tell them one thing: move to Israel as soon as possible. I say that to Jews all around the world, but there (in France) I think it’s a must, and they have to move immediately."

Same for me :biggrin:

Britain is quite segregated but it's probably not much different here, even though we're indoctrinated with multiculturalism and other culture threatening shit.



There is no doubt that anti-Semitic incidents are on the rise in France: from 593 reported attacks or threats against France’s 600,000 Jews in 2003 to 510 in only the first six months of this year. There’s not much doubt that racism flourishes in the United Kingdom, either: in last month’s elections for the European Parliament, British voters sent eleven members of the upstart UK Independence Party, whose rhetoric includes a lot of coded racism, to represent the country in Brussels. And yet...

It's funny how most antisemites are semites themselves. Plus, how come antisemitism is the only thing that counts in Europe? "Regular people" that get beat up, robbed, raped etc. seem to get less priority/attention... :frown:

Praxus
28 Jul 04,, 16:15
One, quoting a Commission for Racial Equality survey, revealed that 90 per cent of white people in Britain have few or no non-white friends.

Great Britian is over 95% white. It would be kind of logical to assume that most people have few or not non-white friends.

LOL

visioninthedark
28 Jul 04,, 16:29
Great Britian is over 95% white. It would be kind of logical to assume that most people have few or not non-white friends.


I quote from the same report;


In fact, the same survey shows that 46 per cent of white people have at least one non-white friend in their inner circle, and that 47 per cent of Asian and black Britons say that most or all of their friends are white.

eMGee
28 Jul 04,, 23:51
Praxus' figure isn't right indeed, unfortunately. But what you're quoting, Mr. Visioninthedark (interesting name, LOL), is typical multiculturalist controlled-media bullshit :biggrin:

Aryan
29 Jul 04,, 00:48
Great Britian is over 95% white. It would be kind of logical to assume that most people have few or not non-white friends.

LOL

Actually the percentage of non-white Brits is around 10%. But in the main cities such as London, Manchester, Birmingham and Leicester, it can be as high as 40%.

Jay
29 Jul 04,, 05:50
Lucky i dont live in that racist hellhole :biggrin:

eMGee
29 Jul 04,, 12:00
Actually the percentage of non-white Brits is around 10%. But in the main cities such as London, Manchester, Birmingham and Leicester, it can be as high as 40%.
It is A LOT higher than that :frown: I'll post the official numbers later, when I have time.

In the Netherlands, most major cities have over 60% non-European/non-western immigrants. Especially in Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Den Haag (The Hague) etc.

Ray
29 Jul 04,, 12:01
The problem of racism is not that complicated.

If one lives in a country that is not one's own, then if the folks who came from outside adopt enough of the host country's culture without being offensive aggressively about their 'distinct culture', I don't think there would be the 'divide'.

For instance, I read on this board that a small town somewhere in the US had a hassle because mullah called the faithful to prayers five times a day and especially at the crack of dawn through loudspeakers, it can be very irritating. Obviously, this encourages a divide.

If at a drop of a hat for every sentence 'Inshallah' i'e. 'If God Wills' is aid, then one loses that the chain of thought. That too is very disturbing. If at the start of everything one says, 'Bismillah, Rehman o Rahim' one wonders whats up. This is more so disusting when one finds that others have to follow their religious codes when in their countries and yet they do what they want in our countries, it become really blasted irritating. This leads to hatred. It leads to all the problems that we face today.

I say keep your religion where it belongs - in your heart. Keep your culture to the confines of your home. Don't impose it on me!

s_qwert63
29 Jul 04,, 14:14
In the Netherlands, most major cities have over 60% non-European/non-western immigrants. Especially in Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Den Haag (The Hague) etc.


While in Holland Spoor, The Hague, the percentage is about 99.9% :)

Actually maybe there has been a rise in hatred and racism because the Arab/Turkish immigrants earned it.

When I came to Holland I heard about the "Turkish Problem" and the "Moroccan Problem" (as I call it), and I actually thought that Nazilike evil Dutch people are opressing poor Arab/Turkish minorities here, honestly.

However, when I spent a few years here I realised that it's quite the contrary.

The (fucking) Turks/Moroccans here are the most loud mouthed pieces of shit, that should be herded onto ships and sent wherever the fuck they crawled out of. And I am speaking from personal experience, trust me.
Even when walking down the street past a group of Turks/Moroccans 9esp. tennage/early adulthood fuckers), you will be loudmouthed and provoked.
90% of the fights that I've been in or my friends were in, was against Turks, and the Turks/Moroccans were the provocators.
Most crimes that are committed here are committed by Tirks/Moroccans.
I have been pickpocketed/outrightly robbed by Turks/Moroccans 4 times.
When I was 15 and walking down the street in The Hague, not hurting anyone, I was attacked by a group of 4 Turks (chickenshits) who beat the shit through me and took all my shit (Nokia 3210, Minidisc player, Wallet with 90 Guilders, ID card, bank card, student card etc.).
Since then I went on a personal vendetta against those ************s, and after dark, even in such safe cities as The Hague we walk around in groups, and believe me, a group of intoxicated Russians vs. a group of Turk/Moroccan chickenshits... = Hajji's lying passed out on the curb.

I know I am probably biased and appear to be racist in this post, but it is true... I am speaking from my own personal experience.
That is truly the case when liberalism/multi-culturalism should be thrown out of the window (if you're dealing with a plague such as this) and all those POS expelled.

There are of course, those Turks/Moroccans who work and try to earn money/build up their lives here, but those are the vast minority, while the majority do fuckall and live off unemployment benefits and kinderbijslag (child support, that is why they breed like rabbits).

I say, leave those who are employed and assimilated, and chuck those who fuck around out.

This is all I have to say.

I do get pissed off at this, trust me, seeing as how Dutch people have accomodated these people here, in this beautiful country, pay them unemployment benefits which are sometimes hundreds of times the sum of money that they earned in Turkey/Morocco and how these people respond. They refuse to get employed, uphold their culture to the max. and resent the Dutch way of life.

I am a conservative socialist, I do believe in multi-culturalism and the peaceful co-existence of many nationalities in one country (more or less how it was for the most part in the USSR) but, all this to a certain degree. Once those who immigrated start living their own way in a different country it is enough, they should be chucked out.

Aryan
29 Jul 04,, 15:03
While in Holland Spoor, The Hague, the percentage is about 99.9% :)

Actually maybe there has been a rise in hatred and racism because the Arab/Turkish immigrants earned it.

When I came to Holland I heard about the "Turkish Problem" and the "Moroccan Problem" (as I call it), and I actually thought that Nazilike evil Dutch people are opressing poor Arab/Turkish minorities here, honestly.

However, when I spent a few years here I realised that it's quite the contrary.

The (fucking) Turks/Moroccans here are the most loud mouthed pieces of shit, that should be herded onto ships and sent wherever the fuck they crawled out of. And I am speaking from personal experience, trust me.
Even when walking down the street past a group of Turks/Moroccans 9esp. tennage/early adulthood fuckers), you will be loudmouthed and provoked.
90% of the fights that I've been in or my friends were in, was against Turks, and the Turks/Moroccans were the provocators.
Most crimes that are committed here are committed by Tirks/Moroccans.
I have been pickpocketed/outrightly robbed by Turks/Moroccans 4 times.
When I was 15 and walking down the street in The Hague, not hurting anyone, I was attacked by a group of 4 Turks (chickenshits) who beat the shit through me and took all my shit (Nokia 3210, Minidisc player, Wallet with 90 Guilders, ID card, bank card, student card etc.).
Since then I went on a personal vendetta against those ************s, and after dark, even in such safe cities as The Hague we walk around in groups, and believe me, a group of intoxicated Russians vs. a group of Turk/Moroccan chickenshits... = Hajji's lying passed out on the curb.

I know I am probably biased and appear to be racist in this post, but it is true... I am speaking from my own personal experience.
That is truly the case when liberalism/multi-culturalism should be thrown out of the window (if you're dealing with a plague such as this) and all those POS expelled.

There are of course, those Turks/Moroccans who work and try to earn money/build up their lives here, but those are the vast minority, while the majority do fuckall and live off unemployment benefits and kinderbijslag (child support, that is why they breed like rabbits).

I say, leave those who are employed and assimilated, and chuck those who fuck around out.

This is all I have to say.

I do get pissed off at this, trust me, seeing as how Dutch people have accomodated these people here, in this beautiful country, pay them unemployment benefits which are sometimes hundreds of times the sum of money that they earned in Turkey/Morocco and how these people respond. They refuse to get employed, uphold their culture to the max. and resent the Dutch way of life.

I am a conservative socialist, I do believe in multi-culturalism and the peaceful co-existence of many nationalities in one country (more or less how it was for the most part in the USSR) but, all this to a certain degree. Once those who immigrated start living their own way in a different country it is enough, they should be chucked out.

I've heard stories of it being really bad, my dad spent a long tme in Germany almost to the point where he started calling himself German. He was telling me about the Turks there, how much the Germans and Turks hate each other, and all the crime and unemployment.

s_qwert63
29 Jul 04,, 15:51
I've heard stories of it being really bad, my dad spent a long tme in Germany almost to the point where he started calling himself German. He was telling me about the Turks there, how much the Germans and Turks hate each other, and all the crime and unemployment.


Yes it is true, I am neither a Dutch, nor an EU national, in fact, I am not the whitest person, but I sound more or less like a Dutch skinhead/Nazi.

Lunatock
29 Jul 04,, 16:27
While in Holland Spoor, The Hague, the percentage is about 99.9% :)

Actually maybe there has been a rise in hatred and racism because the Arab/Turkish immigrants earned it.

When I came to Holland I heard about the "Turkish Problem" and the "Moroccan Problem" (as I call it), and I actually thought that Nazilike evil Dutch people are opressing poor Arab/Turkish minorities here, honestly.

However, when I spent a few years here I realised that it's quite the contrary.

The (fucking) Turks/Moroccans here are the most loud mouthed pieces of shit, that should be herded onto ships and sent wherever the fuck they crawled out of. And I am speaking from personal experience, trust me.
Even when walking down the street past a group of Turks/Moroccans 9esp. tennage/early adulthood fuckers), you will be loudmouthed and provoked.
90% of the fights that I've been in or my friends were in, was against Turks, and the Turks/Moroccans were the provocators.
Most crimes that are committed here are committed by Tirks/Moroccans.
I have been pickpocketed/outrightly robbed by Turks/Moroccans 4 times.
When I was 15 and walking down the street in The Hague, not hurting anyone, I was attacked by a group of 4 Turks (chickenshits) who beat the shit through me and took all my shit (Nokia 3210, Minidisc player, Wallet with 90 Guilders, ID card, bank card, student card etc.).
Since then I went on a personal vendetta against those ************s, and after dark, even in such safe cities as The Hague we walk around in groups, and believe me, a group of intoxicated Russians vs. a group of Turk/Moroccan chickenshits... = Hajji's lying passed out on the curb.

I know I am probably biased and appear to be racist in this post, but it is true... I am speaking from my own personal experience.
That is truly the case when liberalism/multi-culturalism should be thrown out of the window (if you're dealing with a plague such as this) and all those POS expelled.

There are of course, those Turks/Moroccans who work and try to earn money/build up their lives here, but those are the vast minority, while the majority do fuckall and live off unemployment benefits and kinderbijslag (child support, that is why they breed like rabbits).

I say, leave those who are employed and assimilated, and chuck those who fuck around out.

This is all I have to say.

I do get pissed off at this, trust me, seeing as how Dutch people have accomodated these people here, in this beautiful country, pay them unemployment benefits which are sometimes hundreds of times the sum of money that they earned in Turkey/Morocco and how these people respond. They refuse to get employed, uphold their culture to the max. and resent the Dutch way of life.

I am a conservative socialist, I do believe in multi-culturalism and the peaceful co-existence of many nationalities in one country (more or less how it was for the most part in the USSR) but, all this to a certain degree. Once those who immigrated start living their own way in a different country it is enough, they should be chucked out.

Had two similiar incidents inside a mosque, that didn't lead to throwing down (unfortunately). First was right before an Imam native to Sierra Leone, lives in Australia made a guest appearence. I walked into the prayer room and noticed two little kids and an adult that could pass for skinnies gritting thier teeth at me. Ignored them more or less, and they left. Boo hoo so sad.

The other was this creepy little Pashtun bastard that always mocked me, and was sitting against the wall of the mosque giving me an evil look. His two pals, and old man and a little kid told him "don't, he'll kill you." Then something about my being a martial arts nut. Actually it'd be more like a creepy little Pashtun Bastard vs an Irishman that's part of the Brooklyn Diaspora.

Would of been the second time a fight broke out inside that Masjid. I would of shown the former Sunni Imam and the Southern Iraqi Shia that threw down how it's done! :biggrin:

ChrisF202
29 Jul 04,, 18:10
s_qwert63, I have heard stories about gangs of Turks who roam through the streets and rob and rape people in some Dutch cities, is this true? Why dont the police just round up all the gang members and lock them up?

s_qwert63
29 Jul 04,, 21:41
s_qwert63, I have heard stories about gangs of Turks who roam through the streets and rob and rape people in some Dutch cities, is this true?

Of course it is true.
Mainly it's teenage Turks who rob people. You should see the Turkish Black Market (I have been to one shop) here and how much stolen stuff there is.
In Amsterdam there are 500,000 bikes, but 1.5 million get stolen annually.

There are also gangs who roam night trains and rape women/rob people.


Why dont the police just round up all the gang members and lock them up?

Well the police here seem to be more involved in stopping underage drinking/smoking and catching little drunk kids rather than doing something useful.
Also the Turks here enjoy a special status as refugees I believe (eMGee correct me if I am wrong).
And here all Turks are one... they are united, you should have seen the riots and protests we had here when something irrelevant to Holland happened in Turkey (I think it was when a Kurdish terrorist got sentenced to death, so all the Kurds went to slug it out with the Turks... in Holland). I felt like I was walking through Istanbul, not The Hague.
So if one Turk is arrested, the whole Turkish community will start spewing out so much shit and start saying bullshit about Human Rights etc.

ChrisF202
29 Jul 04,, 22:29
Of course it is true.
Mainly it's teenage Turks who rob people. You should see the Turkish Black Market (I have been to one shop) here and how much stolen stuff there is.
In Amsterdam there are 500,000 bikes, but 1.5 million get stolen annually.

There are also gangs who roam night trains and rape women/rob people.



Well the police here seem to be more involved in stopping underage drinking/smoking and catching little drunk kids rather than doing something useful.
Also the Turks here enjoy a special status as refugees I believe (eMGee correct me if I am wrong).
And here all Turks are one... they are united, you should have seen the riots and protests we had here when something irrelevant to Holland happened in Turkey (I think it was when a Kurdish terrorist got sentenced to death, so all the Kurds went to slug it out with the Turks... in Holland). I felt like I was walking through Istanbul, not The Hague.
So if one Turk is arrested, the whole Turkish community will start spewing out so much shit and start saying bullshit about Human Rights etc.
That is absolutly horrible, its a shame we have to live like this. Ive stated many times before on this forum that a very similar state exists here with the Hispanic illegal imigrants. About a year ago in a neighboring county, an undercover cop arrested a Hispanic male at the National Hispanic Soccer Leage championship for selling cocaine to minors. The response of the crowd: between 200 and 500 people began to pelt the cops with bottles, stones, etc. A dozen police officers were injuried and the Emergency Services Unit (what we call a SWAT Team) and the Mounted Section in addition to about 200 patrol officers had to brought in to restore order. A majority of these people also stand on street corners and harras female patrons of stores and whistle at them and so forth, we also have the gangs like MS-13 and the Latin Kings which simpily pick up the turf wars that they left behind in San Salvador and Mexico City the moment they get here and they run around with Ak-47's and Berettas shooting eachother and innocent people.

If the police as much as draw their guns on a minority or pull over more minorities then usual, the whole minority community erupts in anger. A few years back a Hispanic kid was shot dead by a cop in a raid on a drug house, the minority community does the usual, bashes cops, give patrol cars the middle finger, call them racist pigs and so forth. Heres the catch they totally ignored; the officer who shot the kid was Hispanic and the reason he fired is because the officer in front of him tripped over a tree branch and the Hispanic officer behind him fired thinking the guy in front of him was shot. They did the same after 2 deputy sheriff's had to resort to batons and CS to restrain a suspect.

s_qwert63
29 Jul 04,, 23:33
A majority of these people also stand on street corners and harras female patrons of stores and whistle at them and so forth.


SO TRUE...
exact the same of what Turks/Moroccans do here.

And the thing that pisses me off the most is their general attitude, instead of trying to look like law abiding/peaceful and polite citizens, they all act gangster and shit, and have an "I don't give a fuck, I do what I want, this is a free country!" attitude!

I fear gang warfare like in America will also escalate soon here, as now they seem to be forming distinct Turkish/Kurdish/Moroccan gangs.

Oh, and another thing... Turks and Moroccans here ABSOLUTELY hate each other... fuck knows why.

ChrisF202
30 Jul 04,, 01:59
SO TRUE...
exact the same of what Turks/Moroccans do here.

And the thing that pisses me off the most is their general attitude, instead of trying to look like law abiding/peaceful and polite citizens, they all act gangster and shit, and have an "I don't give a fuck, I do what I want, this is a free country!" attitude!

I fear gang warfare like in America will also escalate soon here, as now they seem to be forming distinct Turkish/Kurdish/Moroccan gangs.

Oh, and another thing... Turks and Moroccans here ABSOLUTELY hate each other... fuck knows why.
Looks like our 2 countries have alot in common lol ... the Puerto Ricans and the Mexicans hate each other here. Dosent the Netherlands have strict rules on immigration? Or are they not enforced like here in the US? Wasent Pim Fortyun (or however you spell his name) killed because he wanted less immigration to the Netherlands? We get a million legal and a million illegal immigrants per year, be thankful you guys dont get that much.

Ray
30 Jul 04,, 04:47
What Sqwert's has written about the Turk/ Morroccons is just the type of behaviour the immigrants should avoid. This is what ruins the racial and communal harmony. Such incidents snowball into hatred for the immigrant race when in acutality most of the immigrants could be real nice law abiding people.

Imagine that Moslem cleric (mullah-man) who yelled from the minaret in Britain about jihad against the Englishman in support of that evil lunatic Osama Dust Bin! It is actually biting the hand that feeds. That is, apart from being immoral, it is also disloyalty at its peak as also being treacherous! Now why should the British tolerate such abuse of their hospitality?

Most Europeans are averse to unusual noise renting the atmosphere. Obviously, the Muezzin's call five times a day through loudspeakers at the highest noise level can be very nerve wracking. Therefore, the Europeans would find such behaviour barbaric since it upsets their way of life and degree of decorum. It is but natural that the Europeans would not understand that that is the Islamic way to call the folks to prayers.

Imagine, you are in the middle of a business conference and you are about to sign a deal. Suddenly the chap opposite, instead of signing the deal, whips out a carpet and starts doing callisthenics (phsyical exercises) because of the whistle call from the minaret! And then you realise that he is not doing all that to reduce his waistline, but actually is in a serious bout of prayers! Obviously, the non Moslem would be very confused as to whether to take up the prone position to sign the document or whether to go up and down bobbing like a rudderless sailboat. Surely, the European in an Armani suit would not like to bite the dust like a sine curve and still think its OK a custom to allow wind to break through the Armani trouser as he bobs in concert with the other guy's prayer riutal! I will also concede that all religions rituals are alien and confusing to the members of another religion. Therefore, the bottomline is that one should not impose one's religion or culture on the other.

The other side of the coin is equally dangerous. Imagining you, as an Indian or Pakistani immigrant, are the whitest of the white (when actually your garlic laced breath gives you away) and trying to behave like a European or calling oneself so just to be with the Jones upsets the immigrant population. (European immigrants can get away with it because they are culturally closer and obviously fairer since the sun is rather weak at those latitudes). This makes the immigrant community start hating the hosts for converting their immigrant folks to 'blasphemous' ways! Thus, the divide starts! One doesn't have to be a chimp just because one is visiting a zoo. That is exactly what the immigrant population would feel about such 'whitest of white' darkman from Borneo, aping without logic and rationale a different culture or pretending to be something that birth has denied them even if the desire is aflame. One couldn't fault the immigrants, since it would an assinine sight to find one of theirs, whipping out a hand mirror every now and then and gazing forlorn into it and then loudly saying 'Mirror, Mirror on the wall, who is the fairest of them all?'

To avoid the last type of phenomenon ('whitest of the white' ape phenomenon), which is equally destabilising, the host community must be careful that while they do not permit their culture to be swamped, they also do not (through their behaviour) give an inferiority complex to the immigrant community, wherein a third set of culture erupts. The third set being those with an identity crisis and lost in the conflict of cultures. This third set thus is the most dangerous being neither orangutans nor gorillas, but instead emerge as the chimps to create more dissensions and contribute an increase to the communal strife decibel level.

visioninthedark
01 Aug 04,, 22:32
Oh, and another thing... Turks and Moroccans here ABSOLUTELY hate each other... fuck knows why.

The Turks are NOT arabs .... the Morrocans are arabs ...


plus if you check out history books, you'll see that the Turks ruled western arabia for nearly 600 years ... !!

visioninthedark
01 Aug 04,, 22:37
Imagine, you are in the middle of a business conference and you are about to sign a deal. Suddenly the chap opposite, instead of signing the deal, whips out a carpet and starts doing callisthenics (phsyical exercises) because of the whistle call from the minaret! And then you realise that he is not doing all that to reduce his waistline, but actually is in a serious bout of prayers! Obviously, the non Moslem would be very confused as to whether to take up the prone position to sign the document or whether to go up and down bobbing like a rudderless sailboat. Surely, the European in an Armani suit would not like to bite the dust like a sine curve and still think its OK a custom to allow wind to break through the Armani trouser as he bobs in concert with the other guy's prayer riutal! I will also concede that all religions rituals are alien and confusing to the members of another religion.

A good attempt at an "imagined" senario ....

A good attempt at planting subliminal and false images and messages ...

Let me assure you that it would be UNISLAMIC to do the above ... ask any bearded fanatic Mullah and he would tell you the same ... there are reasons for that ... and there is a certain physical requirement before offering prayers ... that wouldn't be met in that senario ...

you try to plant subliminal messages and images that you, being indian, know are NOT true ...

wonder why?

P.S.

and in the other thread you accused me of being a propagandist simply because I HIGHLIGHTED the TITLE of a newspaper article .... !!!??!!

LOL!!!

Ironduke
02 Aug 04,, 00:05
Even the Moroccans themselves feel a twinge of Berber nationalism, after all, they weren't always Arabs, they assimilated Arab culture and language.

That is the problem with the Islamists today. With all their talk about Muslim brotherhood, they say their Islamic greetings in Arabic, pray in Arabic, read the Koran in Arabic, call God by the Arabic word for him, Allah, etc. Why does being a Muslim have to mean one is Arabicized?

Well, Khuda Tumhe aman-o-amaan mein rakhay aur tum per rehem karay! (Thanks Assad!)

Aryan
02 Aug 04,, 00:10
I've heard about Turkish-Morroccan violence in Belgium during Euro 200, they've got big immigrant communities there as well. There aren't many Morroccans here in England really, there are a lot of Turks. They seem to spend most of their time fighting Kurdish gangs more than anything else...


Well, Khuda Tumhe aman-o-amaan mein rakhay aur tum per rehem karay. (Thanks Assad!)[/QUOTE]

LOL

Ray
02 Aug 04,, 03:19
Even the Moroccans themselves feel a twinge of Berber nationalism, after all, they weren't always Arabs, they assimilated Arab culture and language.

That is the problem with the Islamists today. With all their talk about Muslim brotherhood, they say their Islamic greetings in Arabic, pray in Arabic, read the Koran in Arabic, call God by the Arabic word for him, Allah, etc. Why does being a Muslim have to mean one is Arabicized?

Well, Khuda Tumhe aman-o-amaan mein rakhay aur tum per rehem karay! (Thanks Assad!)

Wow. That was good. You are sure a bagful of suprises!

Subhan Allah. Masha Allah. Mukarrar!

Confed999
02 Aug 04,, 04:19
I say keep your religion where it belongs - in your heart. Keep your culture to the confines of your home. Don't impose it on me!
Great statement!

Ray
02 Aug 04,, 08:13
Confed,

Thanks.

Nice to have you back. Missed you.

Ray
02 Aug 04,, 11:12
Ironduke,

It may suprise you, but not all Moslems are Arabised in totality, though they are veering like rudderless saiboats towrds it because of all this conflicts.

http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/sea98/amien.htm

In Indonesia they have Hindu icons all over and give due respect. Their currency carries the icon of Lord Ganesha who is a Hindu God! Most names are also Hindu names like Megawati Sukarnoputri etc.

Could it be the reason that they are more secular that they are not yet brainwashed into the alien Arab culture that they are more tolerant?

Interestingly, the Moslems do 'wazu' i.e. clean themselves before prayers. Because in Arabia water is scarce, a wee bit of water is used. The 'bainwashing' of Arabisation is so intense, that here they use very little water to do so even here and yet with the taps running as if there was no tomorrow, as if they were in the barren lands of Arabia! Or it could be that they are great environmentalists and they want to save precious water. In that case, they are way ahead of others!

Maxcraft
03 Aug 04,, 02:37
Many of you have been quick to attack Arabs and Muslims in a vicious and ignorant sense and much slower to point out that there are many good people amongst the Turks, Arabs and other minorities in Europe. You cannot judge an entire group based on the actions or words of one person- I would imagine that not all mullahs are like Abu Hamza but the words of the moderate ones don't sell copies of newspapers and don't write headlines. Just because one has been attacked by a Turk in Amsterdam doesn't mean that all Turks are to be feared and despised. It seems that 2 wars instigated by the Bush family and one terrorist attack have made you all frightened and suspicious of anyone who attends a mosque, wears Middle Eastern clothing or who can speak Arabic. I'd bet that all Arab Americans are now turned away from flying schools on a racist basis.

I'm surprised that Ray from India, a prime example of a country where multi-culturalism can work even under great adversity, appeals to minorities to keep their culture in their homes and not to impose them on the rest of us. Exposure to other cultures is not an imposition by the minorities, and multi-culturalism is not something to be feared and can bring great benefits to all.

I believe it ultimately depends whether minorities themselves feel they are part of the country they have settled in. For instance, in the U.K., where I spend 6 months of the year, Indian minorities kicked out of Uganda by Idi Amin and Afro-Caribbeans generally consider the u.K. to be their home, and so have integrated far better than those from Pakistan, who feel they are in the U.K. to work, send money "home" and then return there in old age. I must admit that the recent initiative of the British government in introducing a citizenship programme for new immigrants, including a pre-requisite that they learn the English language, is a good one.

It is well known that the United States is not the great melting-pot it should be, and remains highly and sometimes bitterly segregated. The one key difference with Europe is that American Anglo-Saxons, blacks, Jews, Italians, Poles, etc acknowledge that they are as American as each other even if sadly they are repulsed by the thought of their daughters marrying a black man or refuse to live next door to a Mexican.

Confed999
03 Aug 04,, 08:13
Many of you have been quick to attack Arabs and Muslims in a vicious and ignorant sense and much slower to point out that there are many good people amongst the Turks, Arabs and other minorities in Europe.
Please show me where anyone said all Arabs and Muslims were bad.

Just because one has been attacked by a Turk in Amsterdam doesn't mean that all Turks are to be feared and despised.
If you're walking down the street and 2 purple people step from the shadows and literraly beat the crap out of you, would you look at the next purple person you saw with trust in your heart? If so, you're either forgetful or too trusting.

It seems that 2 wars instigated by the Bush family and one terrorist attack
One war and many, many, many, many terrorist attacks. Do you truly think this all started on September 11th? This war has been comming for as long as I have memory, that I can tell you with 100% certainty. I also want proof of how the Bush family "instigated" all of this, and I'm serious about the proof.

I'd bet that all Arab Americans are now turned away from flying schools on a racist basis.
Nope, they go through the new standard screening process required by the FBI. It's similar, but more in-depth, than the screening process for a concealed weapons permit. BTW there is no such thing as an Arab-American, they are either one or the other.

keep their culture in their homes and not to impose them on the rest of us.
So it would be ok if I forced you to live the way I think you should live? That's what imposition is.

Main Entry: im·pose
Pronunciation: im-'pOz
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): im·posed; im·pos·ing
Etymology: Middle French imposer, from Latin imponere, literally, to put upon (perfect indicative imposui), from in- + ponere to put -- more at POSITION
transitive senses
1 a : to establish or apply by authority <impose a tax> <impose new restrictions> <impose penalties> b : to establish or bring about as if by force <those limits imposed by our own inadequacies -- C. H. Plimpton>
2 a : PLACE, SET b : to arrange (as pages) in the proper order for printing
3 : PASS OFF <impose fake antiques on the public>
4 : to force into the company or on the attention of another <impose oneself on others>
intransitive senses : to take unwarranted advantage of something <imposed on his good nature>

Main Entry: im·po·si·tion
Pronunciation: "im-p&-'zi-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : something imposed : as a : LEVY, TAX b : an excessive or uncalled-for requirement or burden
2 : the act of imposing
3 : DECEPTION


Exposure to other cultures
Exposure should be vouluntary, or else it's tyrany. People should be free to live the way they want, but they must still respect the fact that others can live the way they want too.

It is well known that the United States is not the great melting-pot it should be
Really? By whom?

highly and sometimes bitterly segregated.
If they wish to be segrigated, they should be allowed to be. They shouldn't be bitter about their choice not to assimilate into the mainstream though.

even if sadly they are repulsed by the thought of their daughters marrying a black man or refuse to live next door to a Mexican.
Prejudice is widespread, in fact everyone pre-judges something sometimes, and in the USA they have the right to do so. BTW, nobody is good enough for your daughter, nobody.

Ray
03 Aug 04,, 08:54
Maxcraft,

I stated that one must keep one's religion and culture in their home is with a caveat. Don't flaunt it aggressively in an alein culture where one has implanted oneself. Practice it at home where I am sure none will object or feel threatened of being swamped!

In Saudi Arabia, western women have to have their face covered as in Iran. Any no dress can be worn that shows the legs! Obviously, it would not be acceptable there to wear a miniskirt or not keep the face covered (at least have a headscarf).

Likewise, in a western country, if one starts flaunting their culture and religion and starts arogantly telling them that their culture and religion is a whole lot of bullshit, I am sure that would not be the correct approach. Yet, with friends in the confines of your drawing room, you can say what you want and do what you want.

What's wrong with my stating so?

I heard General Zinni yesterday who is a Republican. He was wary of what was happening in Iraq and the Middle East and wasn't going overboard, but he too said that he did not think Bush had any personal vendetta about Iraq. If indeed he blamed anyone he blamed the Pentagon and to some extent Rumsfeld for not telling the troops in Iraq as to exactly what they are there for (or words to that effect).

Ray
03 Aug 04,, 09:12
Maxcraft,

I reckon that you will accept that Indonesia is a Moslem country. I reckon that you will accept that Indonesia has the wrold largest Moslem population.

Please read my post just before yours and see what I have written about Indonesia. Does it smack of anti Islamic feeling?

It is only the Arabised or near Arabisation countries of Islam that are rather rabid and very vociferous about the goodness of their religion and thinking other religions are not worth the candle. That is what is lousy.

Look at Malaysia. Yes, they are getting a bit Arabised, but they are quite tolerant to other religiions. They have allowed the Passion of Christ to be screened, but only to Christians. Of course, some Moslem baiter could also say that it was done so that the Jews are damned. Yet, I will state that Northern state of Malaysia was ruled by a rabid Moslem party, but they ahve been reined. And reined by who? The Moslem voters! Musharraf alone is fighting this rabidisation of Islam in Pakistan. It is a very strong force and so many very nice and good Moslems of Pakistan are caught in a bind betwen the devil and the deep sea. Does it mean that Pakistanis are bad. No chance. In 1971, I met a Major who was my adversary. We are friends till today. In war, we were enemies. In peace, he is a better friend than many of my Indian acquaintances! He prays five times. But he never tells me that his relgion is better than mine or his way of life is better than mine. No does not make me feel incomplete or revolted by his thoughts.

So, there are good Moslems. Of that there is no doubt. I wish they become more. rein in the rabid Mullahs and all will be well. Abu Ben Adhem may his tribe increase goes a poem. Let Abu ben Adhems tribe increase.

In so far as all this 'uncertainity' as to where the cat shall jump, as I have said all the time, here and everywhere, the whole Moslem community MUST condemn all Moslems fundamentalists including rabid Mullahs. Issue a fatwa. It will stifle all the anti Moslem chatter. WHY ARE THE MOSLEMS AFRID OF DOING SO? Does it not indicate that they ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT THE MOSLEM FUNDAMENTALISTS ARE RIGHT? This is the apprehension that is making all worried as to what is the real intention and how the cat shall jump

Ray
03 Aug 04,, 09:17
US is a great melting pot.

My folks out there have become more Americans than Indians in their habits and way of life. They have retained their Indianess but their ways are not quite Indian as an Indian would be.

The way Barrack Obama, of African origin (?) spoke at the DNC, I thought he was nore American than Americans. He spoke from conviction and not to play to the white Americans majority. If that is not a melting pot effect, I wonder what is.

visioninthedark
03 Aug 04,, 14:44
In Saudi Arabia, western women have to have their face covered as in Iran.

Not true about Iran .... yes, no miniskirts allowed .... but certainly DO NOT FOLLOW THE SAME DRESS CODE AS SAUDI ... infact ... covering of the "FACE" is strictly forbidden in Shia Islam ... :)

Yet, I agree .... Iran prior to the mullahs ... minus the INSULTING LAW ENACTED TO GRANT IMMUNITY TO FOREIGNERS ... would be an ideal society ...

Ray
03 Aug 04,, 17:24
In Iran, why do the foreign TV reporters cover their face?

The Iranians out in India don't.

Maxcraft
03 Aug 04,, 18:42
If you're walking down the street and 2 purple people step from the shadows and literraly beat the crap out of you, would you look at the next purple person you saw with trust in your heart? If so, you're either forgetful or too trusting..

As an employer, if one of my black staff were to perform badly, most of us wouldn't assume that the next black person who came for a job interview would be the same, and reject them on that basis. Or would we?



BTW there is no such thing as an Arab-American, they are either one or the other..

Of course there is, in the same way that there are Jewish Americans, Irish-Americans, etc. The prefix refers to their cultural or racial background, not their nationality. There must surely be Americans who are of Arab descent, and that is what I mean when I say Arab-Americans.




If they wish to be segrigated, they should be allowed to be. They shouldn't be bitter about their choice not to assimilate into the mainstream though..


There was a strong lobby amongst whites in the Deep South in the USA in the 60s wanting seperate education from the blacks. The "seperate but equal" mentality thankfully also went out, on the staute books at least, in the 60s. Segregation should not be encouraged or permitted in my opinion.



Prejudice is widespread, in fact everyone pre-judges something sometimes, and in the USA they have the right to do so. BTW, nobody is good enough for your daughter, nobody.

So would you openly advocate the right to act upon a prejudice and that is ok? In my opinion that kind of thinking can explain many of the problems of American society.

Maxcraft
03 Aug 04,, 19:01
Maxcraft,

I stated that one must keep one's religion and culture in their home is with a caveat. Don't flaunt it aggressively in an alein culture where one has implanted oneself. Practice it at home where I am sure none will object or feel threatened of being swamped!.

I see what you mean now - it's a bit clearer!



In Saudi Arabia, western women have to have their face covered as in Iran. Any no dress can be worn that shows the legs! Obviously, it would not be acceptable there to wear a miniskirt or not keep the face covered (at least have a headscarf)..

Here in Israel Jewish and Arab women can wear what they like and we respect each other's wishes. But once again, your very valid point above accepted.



What's wrong with my stating so?.

Nothing! I can see you meant it in a different sense than it came across.



I heard General Zinni yesterday... but he too said that he did not think Bush had any personal vendetta about Iraq. If indeed he blamed anyone he blamed... to some extent Rumsfeld for not telling the troops in Iraq as to exactly what they are there for (or words to that effect).

On Zinni's first point re Bush and his personal vendetta, given Bush's prejudices due to the fact that his father failed to finish Saddam the first time, I would guess that his Texan pride means there was very much a personal vendetta involved. Re Rumsfeld, it's called bad planning, shoddy teamwork and lack of communication. Fair enough if you're running a supermarket, but not if you're sending real men and women to a war to spill their blood.

Ray
03 Aug 04,, 22:05
Max,

I have trained with the PLA. I find them the best soldiers amongst the lazy oil rich arabs (I have trained with them too).

They are nore liberal than the Arab idiots. In fact, I had a tough time explaining to an Indian Moslem bearer (personal waiter) of the PLA officer that I could do damn all if the PLA officer's wife was eating pork. My PLA friend was very secular. The unfortunate partt is that people think Palestinians are ONLY Moslems. They are also CHRISTIANS. In fact Arafat's wife I believe is a Christian. Good for Palestine.
I only ask people to read Leon Uris' Exodus.

I am aware that the PLA is a more tolerant lot, but things out there in Palestine is not making me comfortable at all.

I don't deny that Israelis and Sharon are not making the situation any better. But let the new Prime Minister have a chance. If only the US finances him (the only nation that can do) so that he can make projects for the betterment of Palestine better, he would have some standing. I am sure that the average Palestinians are fed up with all this.

Let there be PEACE.

Maxcraft
04 Aug 04,, 00:22
The unfortunate partt is that people think Palestinians are ONLY Moslems. They are also CHRISTIANS. In fact Arafat's wife I believe is a Christian. .

A very small minority though.



I don't deny that Israelis and Sharon are not making the situation any better. .

Emphasis on Sharon; the man does not represent me and most of the people in Haifa, northern Israel. I totally agree, especially since the government continues to make radical statements and take radical actions with no real solutions to offer.


But let the new Prime Minister have a chance. If only the US finances him (the only nation that can do) so that he can make projects for the betterment of Palestine better, he would have some standing. .

And it won't happen - fat chance! I personally believe that the only real chance of beginning to move anywhere near a solution will come when Arafat is out, as well as Bush et al.



I am sure that the average Palestinians are fed up with all this..

Unlikely, and in my opinion unfortunately no. Palestinian youth, even here in a traditionally free-thinking and liberated part of Israel has become more hardline since the intifada began. Another opportunity lost, but we live in hope.

Confed999
04 Aug 04,, 01:02
Of course there is, in the same way that there are Jewish Americans, Irish-Americans, etc. The prefix refers to their cultural or racial background, not their nationality. There must surely be Americans who are of Arab descent, and that is what I mean when I say Arab-Americans.
Nope, they are either citizens of Arabia, or citizens of America. Don't call any of my black friends African-American, they get pissed because they aren't African, they're Americans.

There was a strong lobby amongst whites in the Deep South in the USA in the 60s wanting seperate education from the blacks.
The key word is "was". The same mentality can be found in the past of every country, can't it?

Segregation should not be encouraged or permitted in my opinion.
If you wanted to move to a community that contained only people like you should you not be allowed? Self segregation is a whole different animal from forced segregation, one is evil, the other is not.

So would you openly advocate the right to act upon a prejudice and that is ok?
If you don't hurt anyone, you can be as prejudiced as you want. Anything less would be an attempt at thought control.

It seems that 2 wars instigated by the Bush family
Now, provide proof of this statement or consider it your first warning.

Maxcraft
04 Aug 04,, 02:14
Nope, they are either citizens of Arabia, or citizens of America. Don't call any of my black friends African-American, they get pissed because they aren't African, they're Americans..

I'm simply not going to argue this point, as it's getting nowhere. How you distinguish between your American friends of Irish and English origin I cannot imagine.


The key word is "was". The same mentality can be found in the past of every country, can't it?.

I'm referring to a period just 35 or 40 years ago. That mentality did not disappear overnight. Check out "institutional racism".


If you wanted to move to a community that contained only people like you should you not be allowed? Self segregation is a whole different animal from forced segregation, one is evil, the other is not..

That's clearer - "self-segregation" and "forced segregation" are 2 entirely different things. Many minorities actively choose to live around those of their own colour, culture, etc. There's nothing wrong with that at all.


If you don't hurt anyone, you can be as prejudiced as you want. Anything less would be an attempt at thought control..
And if you truly believe in your prejudices, you would act on them, which would mean hurting someone in some shape or form


Now, provide proof of this statement or consider it your first warning.

The number of lives lost in the Gulf War and the invasion of Iraq are proof enough. Also refer to your comment on thought control - am I being warned for having an opinion that I'm not going to justify to you? I will not do so because, based on your response re African-Americans, Irish-Americans, etc you will disagree whatever I now say.

ZFBoxcar
04 Aug 04,, 02:36
You are saying Bush Sr. started the Gulf War? And now I suppose you will tell us that Kuwait was just a made up country created in 1991 to give the US justification to invade.



I'm referring to a period just 35 or 40 years ago. That mentality did not disappear overnight. Check out "institutional racism".

Having been to the American South a number of times and knowing a good sample of people living there, I gotta tell you most people just aren't racists. You seem to have textbook knowledge of America (or at least steriotypes of America) but I don't think you really know much about it. Europe has a way more racist outlook. You are pro-multiculturalism, but that is more often a failure than a success. In Canada it works, although in Canada too it is a quasi-assimilationist model. In Europe, under the guise of multi-culturalism, immigrants are forever trapped in poverty and are not given the oppurtunity to assimilate and make something of themselves. In the US and Canada immigrants constantly move up through the social economic hierchy (aka as moving into the suburbs), in Europe generation upon generation of immigrants remain trapped in ghettos with no hope of a better future. Assimilation is far better because it does not isolate people, it encourages them to do what is in their own economic interests rather than the interests of those who simply want cheap labour.

Confed999
04 Aug 04,, 02:58
I'm simply not going to argue this point, as it's getting nowhere. How you distinguish between your American friends of Irish and English origin I cannot imagine.
By name. This is America, it doesn't matter where you are from, what religion you are or anything else, you're either an American or you are not. Seperating people by calling them Whatever-Americans seems prejudiced to me.

I cannot imagine.
From what you've said about Americans, I have no problem believing you can't imagine a person that could care less about where you're from, what color you are, religion you are, etc., etc., etc..

That mentality did not disappear overnight.
It never will. There will allways be racists, and everyone has prejudices. They should be free to hate who they want, as long as they don't hurt anyone.

That's clearer - "self-segregation" and "forced segregation" are 2 entirely different things. Many minorities actively choose to live around those of their own colour, culture, etc. There's nothing wrong with that at all.
You quoted my original post, and disagreed with it, now you agree? What?

And if you truly believe in your prejudices, you would act on them, which would mean hurting someone in some shape or form
You have prejudices, do you act on them? I have prejudices, I don't act on any except the "I really like brunettes and redheads" one. BTW, I live in the south, and I do 1/2 the hiring where I work, and the best man, that needs the job the most, gets it.

The number of lives lost in the Gulf War and the invasion of Iraq are proof enough.
How does that prove the Bush family instigated all this?

am I being warned for having an opinion that I'm not going to justify to you?
You said the Bush family instigated all this and you can't tell me how you came to that conclusion? You may not post false information. If you fail to back up that statement, or retract it, you are being warned for trolling.

visioninthedark
05 Aug 04,, 00:24
In Iran, why do the foreign TV reporters cover their face?

The Iranians out in India don't.

I too am against any kind of enforcement ... we agree at that!

All I was doing was point out an error ... when you equated saudi and iran ... you see ... you call it covering of the face in Iran ... which does not happen .... covering the face happens in saudi ...

what happens in iran is covering of the HEAD .... and NOT the "face" ... I hope you see the differrence ...


covering the head is enforced .... covering the "face" is strictly FORBIDDEN IN SHIA ISLAM ...


although, me personally am against FORCING any sort of dress code ...


I was just trying to point out an error in your description of Iran ... hope this makes things clear ... !

Ray
05 Aug 04,, 06:24
OK, that is what I was implying.

However, for the future, could you let me know the Koranic terminological differentiation so that I can use the correct nomenclature to avoid such doubts.

Thanks.

Donnie
06 Aug 04,, 19:29
BTW, nobody is good enough for your daughter, nobody.

aint that the truth :)

eMachine
04 Feb 05,, 14:53
i found your comments here... i wanted to be member just for to reply yours. Im a christian [protestant] Turk who lives in Finland. I also had many troubles with Muslims in Turkey. what could i do? %90 Muslim population. and i didnt want to serve for an islamic army. i moved in Finland. i have a good education and job. i do not go outside for having fun, any pub, hanging around, meeting with friends etc... this is my life, to work. sometimes meeting with friends seriously, in our houses, drinking some alcohol etc. not large fun.
i never been meeting and hanging on streets with my Turk friends, they also. we are working hard in Finland. but i cant tell same things for Kurdish-Turks. they are the just 1 who has crimes, murders etc... they come from arabic race. they had terrorism in Turkey. and now they all are in europe with Turkish ID's as Kurds. you know Turks really wrong. :( if 1 person crimes, you say "all are same"... No not actually!!! i had a clean life, and planning on my way.

But you know to talk like fascists. you love it. you love violence and swearing. you prefer wars between cultures. thats why these Turks-kurds-moroccons are doing it. you did not prefer to teach rights to people. it can be also africans. most of racist people, i mean you are here, just want to have fights, violent attacks and gangsta fights. when some immmigrant trying to close to you nicely, you prefer to block, when you see an immigrant you want to smash on the street.

while you are going on this way, you will not get clean Europe. why Turks are in Europe? why other arabs in EU? it comes also from history and specially world wars. Turks were fighting in Germany against others. ok anyway,
Germany and other countries had verrry big companies and fabricas like siemes, mercedes benz wV etc... European countries didnt have young minds and workers and accepted most of asians and turks etc.. to european countries. if europe has a better situation, EU owns it to them. but if you wanna block these people, if you want fights, wars, its alright. you will always have crisis. maybe you want it. when you are talking violent, you dont know that cars coming from Turkish fabricas, clothes, foods, fruits, or fuel/oils from arabs... think when you cut relation with them, what will happen? you will be hungry untill die.

but there are so many childs who didnt have ducation, even couldnt read a book, want to just attack, loves violence, but when they see war, a fight, they are crying as a girl... just bravo to you!.. try to be helpfull, if people wrong, you could teach the right. it comes with education.

Ray
04 Feb 05,, 19:10
Emachine,

I am addressing just a part of your post - that though Kurdish Turks are the rather violent types, yeet, all Turks get blamed for it. That is if I have understood it right.

What you have written is the unfortunate part of life - that people can't make out the difference. Frankly, I would not be able to do so.

In the UK, Indians and Pakistanis got bashed up by the skinheads. Now, Pakistanis are different (even if marginally different from Indians). Yet the skin heads could not make out. And therefore, the whole show was called '**** bashing" even though Indians too got thrashed.

After 9/11, some Sikhs were killed by Americans in the US since they thought anyone with a turban and a beard was an Islamist. Little did they know that there is a different style of the turban or different style of beard.

So, these things happen. Everyone does not have the advantage of having visited all countries of the world and observed each type of citizen closely.

Of course, I am not condoning racial hatred. I am just point out that sometimes the innocent also get on the wrong side of the stick because of mistaken identitites.

Of course, the Turks are doing a great job in Europe, especially in Germany. But racial ahtred surface because Asian, having experienced poverty, want to make good in Europe and they work harder than the actual citizen of the country. This results in prefernce for the Asians and unemployment for the actual citizens of the country. Hence they feel that the Asians are stealing their jobs and fail to see that they themselves are responsible for the same. After all, no one who is heading a business is there to do social service. He is there for profits!

However, the immigrants should also realise that if they maintain their separate identity and not mix into the ethos and culture of the host country, then there will alwys be resentment amongst the actual citizens. Hence, it is better to identitfy wholeheartedly with the culture, custom and traditions of the host country.

Even then, there will be some violence from the citizen, but then everyone is not the same.

eMachine
05 Feb 05,, 07:11
but anyway, now whatever i do, its a fault for west countries and Europea. yes im a christian, a big difference with a muslim Turk. hell, im working hard, paying my taxes, studying, helping... but most of Turks, Kurds, Arabs and other islamic kinds are criming, murdering etc.. and people thinks "all are same" but not. i am not that kind. im sorry for to say it but im "anti-islamic"... thats why now i dont wanna live in my own country coz i got bored of to islamic press on us (on christians inTurkey). still, i can not tell that "there is democracy" in Turkey.
Ottoman Empire and ottoman people was an islamic & fascist empire. anyway, in 1923, this empire has been erased by a democratic man called "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk"... He created democracy and new laws blah blahh... He was trying to change also fashion on women. and it was a little succesfull. but hell, there was still fascist ottomans who wants to blocke democracy. he died by a sickness. and after that, Turkey had troubles with communism, fascism and all kind anarchism. and still there are islamic people and parties who wants to make Turkey as an islamic country.
Right now, Turkey has an islamic president called "Recep Tayyip Erdogan". in the past, he was also in jail because of his some talkings like "a day our march will be Allahu Ekber from the masques"... Hell!!! now he is a president. and working for to be Western country, trying to join EU with Turkey.
When i was in Turkey, i had ID card, in Turkish id cards, there is religion box and it writes religion. Im a christian from my mother side. but daddy side is muslim. i blocked my daddy and broke my relation because of religion and wanted to change my id as "christian", there is that law, you can change and its a new law. but they did not change.
muslims are looking at as "satan" and calling us dirty. but they do not accept islamic terrorism today.
and also Europe or western countries doesnt supports, your people, and maybe you in the forum, i bet does not support me as a christian Turk. because you say "he is not from Aryan race" or "he has Turkish blood"... yeah but the most important is to terminate risks for next generation. 11 september is so sick!!! how many 11 septembers we will have in the world? is it in just NY? in spain, france and other European countries. even in muslim country, in Turkey to jewish sinagouges, HSBC British banks, bomb attacks etc... islamic terrorism risk is everywhere. and maybe you western people should to support christian community in all countries. you shouldnt block...