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raja khan
24 Jul 04,, 22:16
there are elections to be held in afghanistan.how do u think the afghans will react to that provided they have never experienced sucha thing in their history.If warlords are to win from their respective areas(as it seems to be) what is the benifit to ordinary afghan.

Praxus
24 Jul 04,, 22:22
What exactly is the "ordinary" afghan?

s_qwert63
24 Jul 04,, 23:16
What exactly is the "ordinary" afghan?


One that smokes opium during the day and bows to US troops, but at night takes his AK and goes for some hitchhiking in the mountains.

DarkAngeL999
26 Jul 04,, 17:10
~S_qwert63~

You are obviously ignorant of the past. If history has taught us anything, its that Afghans are rebellious to external authority, the empire, British that is, attempted thrice and failed every single time, the Russians twice, again failed miserably. If an Afghan knows anything it is to fight. Its in our blood. We are fiercely independant people, you only have to look at the current events post-US-occupation in Afghanistan and the casualties at the hand of Afghans.

Aryan
26 Jul 04,, 18:05
~S_qwert63~

You are obviously ignorant of the past. If history has taught us anything, its that Afghans are rebellious to external authority, the empire, British that is, attempted thrice and failed every single time, the Russians twice, again failed miserably. If an Afghan knows anything it is to fight. Its in our blood. We are fiercely independant people, you only have to look at the current events post-US-occupation in Afghanistan and the casualties at the hand of Afghans.

What casualties? Killing UN aid workers and a bunch of ordinary Afghans because they have voting cards doesn't make you independent. It makes you insecure.

Ray
26 Jul 04,, 18:53
Dark Angel,

While what you state is right, but still I think 'civilisation' is touching them.

We have enough of Afghanis in India. Many are students. Karzai was also educated in India. Therefore, whatever I have seen of Afghanis in India, they are as good as anyone. Fiercely independent. True. I have also interacted with the Kabuli as they call them, who are Afghanis who go door to door to sell dry fruits. Good chaps. In fact out poet laureate Tagore wrote a moving story called Kabuliwala and it was made into a film that won international recognition!

Your post sort of indicates them as something totally out of this world. While the 'fiecely independent' attitude is true, yet they are as good a human as anyone else.

DarkAngeL999
27 Jul 04,, 14:19
~Aryan~

First of all, i'd like to ask what made you call yourself an Aryan, amuse me ?

~Ray~

Thank you for the feedback, yes Afghanistan and Afghans have a long history with India (more so with mother India than Pakistan) and currently working side by side to bring prosperity in Afghanistan, a stable Afghanistan is a viable Afghanistan. I hope that both Afghanistan and India can continue their relations and benefit each other in the future.

s_qwert63
27 Jul 04,, 14:40
~S_qwert63~

You are obviously ignorant of the past. If history has taught us anything, its that Afghans are rebellious to external authority, the empire, British that is, attempted thrice and failed every single time, the Russians twice, again failed miserably. If an Afghan knows anything it is to fight. Its in our blood. We are fiercely independant people, you only have to look at the current events post-US-occupation in Afghanistan and the casualties at the hand of Afghans.

The Afghans are independent people, I agree with that, they are rebellious to external authority. However the past and the present also show us another side of the Aghan people, not only are the Afghans rebellious and independent people, they are also the pinnacle of the worlds drug trade.

My mate lost 3 of his friends guarding the Tadzhik-Afghan border from Afghan drug traffickers and smugglers.
My uncle was in Afghanistan and almost got hooked on opium, he said that all Afghans do during the day is get high and chill out.
Do you not reckon that drug free Afghanistan will not only benefit itself but the whole world?
However I highly doubt that Afghanistan will ever abandon it's drug cropping culture.
The US should napalm bomb every single opium field in Afghanistan without regard to civilian casualities, that is the only way the world can be free of your countries drugs.

Aryan
27 Jul 04,, 15:40
Darkangel

You tell me why you're called Darkangel, then we'll talk.

Qwerty

Tell me about it, areas full of Afghan immigrants such as Peshawar or Quetta are full of "tea houses" where people get loaded off opium all day. Afghan women take it as well, they even give it to their children. Worse and more uncivilised in my opinion than the subsaharan African tribes. I read somewhere 90% of heroin that makes the streets of western Europe originates from Afghanistan.

I think we need to deport these ungrateful creatures back to Afghanistan, they certainly can't be trusted.

Lets not forget the age-old Hindu saying:

"Trust a Brahmin before a snake, and a snake before a harlot, and a harlot before an Afghan"

DarkAngeL999
27 Jul 04,, 17:11
~s_qwert63~
Opium crops in Afghanistan is not a new phenomena, it was introduced by Chinese traders, centuries ago and became a thriving business in Afghanistan once upon a time. However, you choose to turn a blindeye towards the drugs trade between the USA and Columbia mainly and Peru and Bolivia whoa are not far behind Columbia, which was funded by the very senators and congressmen that condoned the Columbian government and its people of drug trafficking in the USA. The first place that should be bombed is the good 'ol US of A, my dear friend.

~Aryan~
You cannot question a question.


areas full of Afghan immigrants such as Peshawar or Quetta are full of "tea houses" where people get loaded off opium all day.

Well firstly my dear **** friend, Peshawar and Quetta are areas that belongs to Afghans and Baluchi's respectively, the **** government might consider Afghans as immigrants but be rest assured the local population doesn't, Pashtoons are Afghans and vice versa. Afghania/Pakhtoonkhwa/Pakhtoonistan aka NWFP and Baluchistan province are disputed land between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Read up on the 'Durand' treaty.

As far as opium is concerned, yes there is a small population that is hooked on this fatal drug, but making false statements such as its taken in the local 'tea houses' and the hogwash about the women and childeren is insulting if not ignorant, you should be ashamed of yourself. May Allah forgive you.

P.S The purest Aryans can be found in Afghanistan and Iran in that part of the world.

Ray
27 Jul 04,, 17:18
Darkangel



Lets not forget the age-old Hindu saying:

"Trust a Brahmin before a snake, and a snake before a harlot, and a harlot before an Afghan"

Aryan,

First of all you call yourself an Aryan. We have discussed this at length in a different thread, so I won't go into the hypocrisy involved in this claim by you. This was pointed out by another poster (non Indian and a European I presume) who traced the movement of Aryans etc. You seem to have been left out of the loop.

Further, you seem to be an expert on Brahmins (I had also brought out that you have this racist tendency). I am no psychologist, but this much is evident that those who have no confidence in one's own self tend to attach labels to their indentity to gain acceptability. You seem to suffer a serious bout of identity crisis. You remind me of the film Bourne Identity.

I would indeed be interested in you quoting authority to the Brahmin saying or else I think you are doing it to malign the Brahmins (who are Hindus and you are a Moslem or so I surmise since you also claim British descent or nearabouts). I too can make up little interesting sayings with sagelike stuff and ascribe them to Moslems in general and pseudo Pakistanis in particular. If indeed you want Pakistanis to well in the discussions, be like Asim. He goes off with brownie points and yet he makes his point! ;)

You are well within your rights to post sayings, but those which tend to incite disgust and racial discord should give authority so that there is no bad feeling.

I find it a trifle assinine that a Brahmin saying would condemn itself by stating
' Trust a Brahmin before a snake....'. So what you are saying is that a Brahmin says that he is a wee bit better than a snake? It is a very juvenile attempt on your part and does not reflect well on your intelligence to even make up utter nonsense. Though you could replace Jay Leno.

I am sure you received your education in a madrassa (the free Islamic school). It is only there that they teach religious hatred, be it against the Christains, Jews or Hindus and other religions.

Note Christianity emphasise on love....love for mankind. The madrassa teaches hatred....hate all 'kaffirs' (i.e. all non Moslems) and when everything fails, call any nonsense a jihad and get away with murder. The saddest part is that the educated and emancipated Moslems (and there are many) don't have the guts to stop this nonsense perpetuated by the illiterate Mullahs croaking at the minaret and waking up the dead.

Ray
27 Jul 04,, 17:46
Aryan,

The truth about the Pakhtoon or Pashtoons in NWFP is that they think they are more Afghan and less Pakistanis. Dark Angel is not wrong. Remember, Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan?

If indeed we are talking about Aryans, I reckon Dark Angel is more Aryan than you even as per the theory you earlier propounded! ;)

visioninthedark
27 Jul 04,, 18:58
Aryan,

The truth about the Pakhtoon or Pashtoons in NWFP is that they think they are more Afghan and less Pakistanis. Dark Angel is not wrong. Remember, Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan?

If indeed we are talking about Aryans, I reckon Dark Angel is more Aryan than you even as per the theory you earlier propounded! ;)

Ray,

please .... we have already discussed this to boredom before ...

Aryan and me are Kashmiris ... and I dion't think you get more aryan than that in our subcontinent.


as far as the pukhtoon thingy; may I suggest that a Bengali like you, please do not try to speak on their behalf ...

Besides the population of Pukhtoons in Pak and in our army and in our institutions are far far more than those on the other side of the border ...

and the all claim to belong to Pakistan ... lets not fool ourselves ..

logically, considering the figures and the emotions of our Pukhtoon, we have a stronger claim to the Pukhtoon areas in Afghanistan to join and unite with their original motherlands in Pakistan ...

Please .... lets not get into this ...


anyways, if we stay away from this topic .... and get back to the topic, I think Afghanistan will have a bright and prosperous future.

Aryan
27 Jul 04,, 19:10
Well firstly my dear **** friend, Peshawar and Quetta are areas that belongs to Afghans and Baluchi's respectively, the **** government might consider Afghans as immigrants but be rest assured the local population doesn't, Pashtoons are Afghans and vice versa.

Friend? I didn't know we were on friend terms yet.
Actually the local pathan populace hate the opium smoking afghan refugees. They take their jobs by working for dirt cheap prices, and not to mention the fact that often the refugees are given aid when the local population is ignored.


Afghania/Pakhtoonkhwa/Pakhtoonistan aka NWFP and Baluchistan province are disputed land between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Read up on the 'Durand' treaty.

I know about the Durand line. It mattered a few years ago, during the afghan war, but no one cares now.


As far as opium is concerned, yes there is a small population that is hooked on this fatal drug, but making false statements such as its taken in the local 'tea houses' and the hogwash about the women and childeren is insulting if not ignorant, you should be ashamed of yourself. May Allah forgive you.

Ask anyone who has been to Peshawar and they'll tell you about the opium tea houses. People walk in and pay to get high. And as for the news about Afghan parents given opium to their children:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3036320.stm
Its disgusting.
And send my thanks to allah for the compliment :biggrin:


P.S The purest Aryans can be found in Afghanistan and Iran in that part of the world
Well the purest opium can be found in Afghanistan and rugs. If you want to discuss the racial make up of Afghanistan open up a thread and we'll discuss it along with historical influences.


First of all you call yourself an Aryan. We have discussed this at length in a different thread, so I won't go into the hypocrisy involved in this claim by you. This was pointed out by another poster (non Indian and a European I presume) who traced the movement of Aryans etc. You seem to have been left out of the loop.

You talking about Ray? He just parroted on about the same thing again and again. I had nothing left to say to him, he wouldn't listen to me. That isn't articulating a point, its a debate with a brick wall.


Further, you seem to be an expert on Brahmins (I had also brought out that you have this racist tendency).
Right, an expert on Brahmins has to be racist? I'm not an expert, all I've done is studied the caste system in hinduism.


I am no psychologist, but this much is evident that those who have no confidence in one's own self tend to attach labels to their indentity to gain acceptability. You seem to suffer a serious bout of identity crisis. You
remind me of the film Bourne Identity.

Indians generally remind me of the film Planet of the Apes.


I would indeed be interested in you quoting authority to the Brahmin saying or else I think you are doing it to malign the Brahmins (who are Hindus and you are a Moslem or so I surmise since you also claim British descent or nearabouts). I too can make up little interesting sayings with sagelike stuff and ascribe them to Moslems in general and pseudo Pakistanis in particular. If indeed you want Pakistanis to well in the discussions, be like Asim. He goes off with brownie points and yet he makes his point!

I know Asim as a good friend and I know he would NEVER say anything for brownie points. If you want to find someone who does that, try looking a little closer to home. He's a lot more polite than me and a lot less blunt, but neither of us are going to change our view to suit anyone else.


You are well within your rights to post sayings, but those which tend to incite disgust and racial discord should give authority so that there is no bad feeling.

I didn't make it up if that is what you are implying, but


I find it a trifle assinine that a Brahmin saying would condemn itself by stating
' Trust a Brahmin before a snake....'. So what you are saying is that a Brahmin says that he is a wee bit better than a snake? It is a very juvenile attempt on your part and does not reflect well on your intelligence to even make up utter nonsense. Though you could replace Jay Leno.

Yea and you can replace Congo Bill.


I am sure you received your education in a madrassa (the free Islamic school). It is only there that they teach religious hatred, be it against the Christains, Jews or Hindus and other religions.

That’s an old record. Every time I or another Pakistani doesn't agree with you, according to you we've studied at an islamic madrassa. I'm not going to answer it.


Note Christianity emphasise on love....love for mankind. The madrassa teaches hatred....hate all 'kaffirs' (i.e. all non Moslems) and when everything fails, call any nonsense a jihad and get away with murder. The saddest part is that the educated and emancipated Moslems (and there are many) don't have the guts to stop this nonsense perpetuated by the illiterate Mullahs croaking at the minaret and waking up the dead.

I don't think adherents of either faith can claim their religion to be more peaceful than the other. Both religions have been used to justify violence, murder and war. Its pretty easy to intrepret verses of the quran or bible to allow murder or whatnot to be justified.

visioninthedark
27 Jul 04,, 19:11
Ray;

reality check for you .... read this article from only 2-3 days ago .... does this look like the Pakistani Pukhtoons consider themselves Afghans??? This is a story of Pukhtoons from both sides of the border. Its just a common everyday article ... I am just using it as an example ...


http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2004-daily/26-07-2004/main/main11.htm

Eight Afghan militiamen kidnapped by Pak tribesmen

PESHAWAR: Tribesmen in Bajaur agency had taken eight Afghan militiamen hostage, following a deadly clash over collection of tax on transportation of timber across the border, an official said Sunday.

The hostages were being held by Salarzai tribesmen in Sara Ona, a village near the Afghan border, in the Bajaur tribal region, said Brig Mahmood Shah, the chief of security for the area. Four Afghan troops and one suspected timber smuggler were also killed in Kunar in anothr clash on Friday, in the other Afghan province opposite Bajaur.

Sayed Fazl-e-Akbar, governor of Kunar, said the fighting occurred when the Afghan troops spotted the smugglers and tried to stop them. An elder from the Salarzai tribe, whose members live on both sides of the border, said the Afghan soldiers fought with other members of his tribe following a dispute over tax on timber they were bringing across the border.

The tribesmen were angered after Afghan authorities "unilaterally increased" the tax on timber, said Zahir Shah Salarzai, who lives on the Pakistani side. Shah said government officials were negotiating with the tribesmen to release the hostages. "We are making efforts to get these men and hand them over to Afghan authorities," he said adding that the issue will be resolved soon.

Jay
27 Jul 04,, 19:46
"Trust a Brahmin before a snake, and a snake before a harlot, and a harlot before an Afghan"
Who said this? Osama Bin Laden??



You talking about Ray? He just parroted on about the same thing again and again. I had nothing left to say to him, he wouldn't listen to me. That isn't articulating a point, its a debate with a brick wall.
As usual you are confused :tongue:



Indians generally remind me of the film Planet of the Apes.
Pakistanis generally remind me of Apes in the film Planet of the Apes.

eMGee
27 Jul 04,, 20:22
Central-Asia, geez... I wouldn't have minded it if either Russia or the USA (after 9/11) would've turned Afghanistan into a nice parking lot.

Ray
27 Jul 04,, 20:24
Vision,

I didn't want to get into the racial nonsense your good fiend the Aryan has again ignited. I reckon there is something seriously wrong with his faculties.

I don't think Aryan said he is a Kashmiri. He said he was something from the Northern territories. Pakistan clearly demarcates Northern Territories from Kashmir.

Indians are from the Planet of the Apes? Good. But the genuine Ape is Aryan.

Anyway, Aryan is beyond logic. I find his continuing emphasis on ethnic and religious claptrap rather juvenile. He has a serious personality confidence disconnect.

He also forgot East Pakistan of Bengalis who also joined Pakistan, the land of the pure, and then decided it was getting their goat!

Jay,

He is not Osama bin Laden's left toe. Aryan is Aryan bin Bandars.

s_qwert63
27 Jul 04,, 20:31
~s_qwert63~
Opium crops in Afghanistan is not a new phenomena,

Of course it isn't they have been there for centuries, but only in the last few decades did Afghanistan start to pour all those drugs out onto the world.


However, you choose to turn a blindeye towards the drugs trade between the USA and Columbia mainly and Peru and Bolivia whoa are not far behind Columbia, which was funded by the very senators and congressmen that condoned the Columbian government and its people of drug trafficking in the USA. The first place that should be bombed is the good 'ol US of A, my dear friend.

Does Columbia flood the world with 90% of the world's heroin?
They do produce shitloads of cocaine, however the drugs that are coming out of Afghanistan mostly end up in Eurasia (i.e. my hemisphere), so I am more concerned with what Afghanistan is doing rather than with what Columbia is doing.
The New Afghan government has made only cosmetical efforts to get rid of all the opium plantations. Most of the Afghan economy is dependant on drug trade/trafficking. Afghanistan is basically the world's Coffeeshop.


Well firstly my dear **** friend, Peshawar and Quetta are areas that belongs to Afghans and Baluchi's respectively, the **** government might consider Afghans as immigrants but be rest assured the local population doesn't, Pashtoons are Afghans and vice versa. Afghania/Pakhtoonkhwa/Pakhtoonistan aka NWFP and Baluchistan province are disputed land between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Read up on the 'Durand' treaty.

Afghanistan can claim whatever it wants but since it has neither an organized Army (I know it has one, but is it really combat effective?) neither the unity to seriously threaten Pakistan.

You also laid claim to some Tadjik provinces, and Afghan mercenaries as well as militiamen have attacked Tadjikistan on many occasions duirng the Tadjik Civil War in 1990's. They have wiped out villages of Tadjiks and wanted to repopulate them with Afghans. However, when the CIS contingent of troops arrived they kicked the Afghans asses so hard that they even chased them 15km into Afghanistan.
(courtesy of the 218th Kazakhstan Border Guard Reginment)


As far as opium is concerned, yes there is a small population that is hooked on this fatal drug,

Riiiiiight...
How 'small' is that population?


The purest Aryans can be found in Afghanistan and Iran in that part of the world.

Does anyone here care?
I don't think so.

raja khan
27 Jul 04,, 22:19
afghans being freedom loving is bullshit.Tribal chiefs only love one thing and that is money.they change loyalitiesin matter of seconds just for money.

Aryan
27 Jul 04,, 23:10
afghans being freedom loving is bullshit.Tribal chiefs only love one thing and that is money.they change loyalitiesin matter of seconds just for money.
:rolleyes:

Ray
28 Jul 04,, 08:05
Therefore, I reckon Pakistani Army used money to buy up the guys at Wana. Good. I am sure you will get the reimbursement from Bush. Live off doles! Great for the honour of Aryans.

Aryan
28 Jul 04,, 19:59
Well it beats fabricating battles and attacks to award soldiers and officers medals for gallantry and bravery :tongue:

Ray
28 Jul 04,, 20:42
Aryan,

Remember 1947 -48, 1965, 1971 and Kargil? Too traumatic?

Since you don't believe historical documents, mMay I ask you to read Pakistani Justice Hamdoor Rehman's Report investigating the 1971 Pakistani rout against India where 90,000 were PoWs? It is too big a document to post it here. Lazy that you maybe, Google for it.

However, I wonder if you will ever find it out even though 'it is with you' like the accession of Kashmir document.

Aryan, do you like music?

May I suggest you make your anthem the Beatles song, 'Open up your eyes now, tell me what you see. It is no surprise now.....' what you must see is truth!

Are you aware what is a halflinger?

turnagainarm
28 Jul 04,, 23:17
Central-Asia, geez... I wouldn't have minded it if either Russia or the USA (after 9/11) would've turned Afghanistan into a nice parking lot.


I don't think you could blame Afghanistan for 9/11. Taliban which sheltered Alqaeda was in fact creation of Pakistan. Pakistani intelliegence ISI had links with Alqaeda.

Even now most of the Taliban and Alqaeda are taking refuge inside Pakistan. Most of the attacks on US troops in Afghanistan originates from Pakistani tribal area which is part of Pakistan.

Aryan
29 Jul 04,, 00:01
Remember 1947 -48, 1965, 1971 and Kargil? Too traumatic?

In 1947, we managed to liberated one third of Kashmir against an army 10 times our size. Thats a victory in my book.

1965, the Rann of Kutch, we kicked ****** ass out of the Rann of Kutch, again a military victory to us.

1971 was one war India did win, but against a few thousand Pakistani soldiers who were stationed to protect the Bihari population of Bangladesh. They had been suffering terrorist attacks from the Indian sponsored mukti bahini. Even when war broke out, 31,000 soldiers were put against unbeatable numerical odds. The PAF squadron stationed in East Bengal, had to take on 10 squadrons, and numerically still came out on top.

Each one of these you forget the fact that India is much bigger than Pakistan in terms of manpower, economy and landmass. The last time I recall India fighting a country their own size, 1962, they were humiliated and ran to both USA and the Soviets for help.


Since you don't believe historical documents, mMay I ask you to read Pakistani Justice Hamdoor Rehman's Report investigating the 1971 Pakistani rout against India where 90,000 were PoWs? It is too big a document to post it here. Lazy that you maybe, Google for it.




However, I wonder if you will ever find it out even though 'it is with you' like the accession of Kashmir document.

Accession of Kashmir was not legitimate in the eyes of the Kashmiris, their ruler was an oppressive dictator, dictators do not have legitimacy outside ******a.


Aryan, do you like music?

May I suggest you make your anthem the Beatles song, 'Open up your eyes now, tell me what you see. It is no surprise now.....' what you must see is truth!

Thanks but 60s Britpop isn't my scene.

Aryan
29 Jul 04,, 00:07
I don't think you could blame Afghanistan for 9/11. Taliban which sheltered Alqaeda was in fact creation of Pakistan. Pakistani intelliegence ISI had links with Alqaeda.

Yea we supported the Taliban (as did the USA and loads of other european nations through grants and development schemes). They were bloodthirsty and cruel, but hey this is Afghanistan we are talking about and we needed someone to curb the export of heroin into Pakistan and the rest of the world, not to mention the return of Afghan refugees. They weren't ideal but were a hell of a lot better than the continuous war going on there.


Even now most of the Taliban and Alqaeda are taking refuge inside Pakistan. Most of the attacks on US troops in Afghanistan originates from Pakistani tribal area which is part of Pakistan.

Well that may be partly true, but the tribal areas as I'm sure you already know have largely be autonomy historically. It's been like that since the British. Good news is the Pak Army operations in Waziristan are going to kick out both the extremist elements, and the sympathising Afghan refugees who have long overstayed their welcome :)

Ray
29 Jul 04,, 04:45
Good news is the Pak Army operations in Waziristan are going to kick out both the extremist elements, and the sympathising Afghan refugees who have long overstayed their welcome :)

I am gald that at least you agree that the Taliban was the creation of Pakistan.

Also, that they were staying in Pakistan because the Pakistani welcomed and treated the 'guests' as their own.

In so far as the wars with Pakistan, you have indicated that you a serious bout of amnesia! Since 1971 and Kargil are too close to current times, you couldn't fabricate facts.

In Kutch 1965, it was the UK Prime Minister Harold Wilson's Arbitration that India agreed to.

In 1971, a thousand troops alone in East Pakistan that was defeated? That would not even be a battalion! If you haven't read the Pakistani Justice Hamdoor Rehman Commission Report on the Pakistani rout, then, how is the weather there in Pluto! :) The PAF came out on top? Indeed, they all went to Heaven! There was not a single PAF aircraft flying once the InAF took to the skies.

Dictators don't have legitimacy outside India? That's a laugh. Ayub Khan, Zia and Musharraf in India? Are you suggesting that Pakistan is in India? Forgive me, but you can keep that impoverished nation to yourself.


In so far conflicts with China, have you forgotten 1965 Nathu La Pass?

turnagainarm
29 Jul 04,, 05:57
Yea we supported the Taliban (as did the USA and loads of other european nations through grants and development schemes). They were bloodthirsty and cruel, but hey this is Afghanistan we are talking about and we needed someone to curb the export of heroin into Pakistan and the rest of the world, not to mention the return of Afghan refugees. They weren't ideal but were a hell of a lot better than the continuous war going on there.


You are wrong to say that US paid any grant money to Taliban. USA never paid a single penny to Taliban govt. Taliban was an illegitimate govt. with no international recoginition and under sanction from UN. If I recall correctly only two countries in the world recognized Taliban govt. one was Pakistan and other the Saudi Arabia.

USA provided to relief to the Afghani people through international NGO's, USA was the largest food donor to Afghanistan refugees.




Well that may be partly true, but the tribal areas as I'm sure you already know have largely be autonomy historically. It's been like that since the British. Good news is the Pak Army operations in Waziristan are going to kick out both the extremist elements, and the sympathising Afghan refugees who have long overstayed their welcome

Actually most of the Alqaeda big leaders have been caught in places like Rawalpindi, Lahore, and Karachi. Still a large number of Alqaeda leaders are still out, and chances are that they are hiding in Pakistani cities than the tribal areas. Tribal area may be autonomous but it is still part of Pakistan and therefore it is Pakistan responsibility to stop any attack on US troops in Afghanistan originating from its tribal area.

raja khan
29 Jul 04,, 11:12
I don't think you could blame Afghanistan for 9/11. Taliban which sheltered Alqaeda was in fact creation of Pakistan. Pakistani intelliegence ISI had links with Alqaeda.

Osama bil ladin is son of a bitch and his dad is USA

usa has supported all the bloody jihad against ussr in afghanistan and brought riligious extremists from all over the world to afghanistan.Osama worked for cia for so long( not sure about if he does now).Usa has used islamic extremism to suppress progresive movements in countries like Pakistan iran ,arabs and so on

Aryan
29 Jul 04,, 13:21
You are wrong to say that US paid any grant money to Taliban. USA never paid a single penny to Taliban govt. Taliban was an illegitimate govt. with no international recoginition and under sanction from UN. If

Yet the Bush administration did more than praise the Taliban's proclaimed ban of opium cultivation. In mid-May, 2001, Secretary of State Colin Powell announced a $43 million grant to Afghanistan in addition to the humanitarian aid the United States had long been providing to agencies assisting Afghan refugees. Given Callahan's comment, there was little doubt that the new stipend was a reward for Kabul's anti-drug efforts.
http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-02-02.html


I recall correctly only two countries in the world recognized Taliban govt. one was Pakistan and other the Saudi Arabia.

Well three officially recognised the taliban, Pakistan, Saudi and UAE, but quite a few other countries unofficially recognised the regime, or held talks of some sort with them. Canada, America and China are three that I can remember having talks with them.

You do know recognising a country doesn't mean you support their domestic or international policy. Pakistan supported them (as did most afghans) because they thought they were the first group serious about ending the civil war, plus the fact a lot of them were Afghan refugees who had been living in camps in Pakistan.




Actually most of the Alqaeda big leaders have been caught in places like Rawalpindi, Lahore, and Karachi. Still a large number of Alqaeda leaders are still out, and chances are that they are hiding in Pakistani cities than the tribal areas.
Al-Quaida members hang out in cities, but members of the Taliban are mainly in regions bordering Afghanistan such as Waziristan.


Tribal area may be autonomous but it is still part of Pakistan and therefore it is Pakistan responsibility to stop any attack on US troops in Afghanistan originating from its tribal area.

Well thats true, and is the reason the whole Wana operation was undertaken. Pakistan is approaching the issue with the carrot and stick method, detaining foreigners and those sheltering them, but building roads and schools as well.

Ray
29 Jul 04,, 20:26
Carrot and stick?

They however let the big fish escape! Save on the carrot, lest the market prices shoot!

Aryan
29 Jul 04,, 21:54
Carrot and stick?

They however let the big fish escape! Save on the carrot, lest the market prices shoot!

Who was the big fish?

Jay
29 Jul 04,, 22:44
OBL :biggrin:

turnagainarm
29 Jul 04,, 23:12
Yet the Bush administration did more than praise the Taliban's proclaimed ban of opium cultivation. In mid-May, 2001, Secretary of State Colin Powell announced a $43 million grant to Afghanistan in addition to the humanitarian aid the United States had long been providing to agencies assisting Afghan refugees. Given Callahan's comment, there was little doubt that the new stipend was a reward for Kabul's anti-drug efforts.
http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-02-02.html

Cato Institute is giving you the wrong impression, yes Bush Administration sanctioned $43 milloion for Afghan aid in May 2001, but none of that money was ment to be given to Taliban. All the money was given to UN & NGO's.
US was the largest aid donor to Afghanistan but did not pay a single penny to Taliban.

Read Collin Powell press briefing from May 17, 2001:

The truth is contained in the transcript of a briefing given by Secretary of State Colin Powell, who on May 17 announced the $43 million grant; it was aimed at alleviating a famine that threatened the lives of four million Afghans. Far from handing the money over to the Taliban, Powell went out of his way to criticize them, and to explain the steps the United States was taking to keep the money out of their hands.

" We distribute our assistance in Afghanistan through international agencies of the United Nations and non-governmental organizations, " Powell said. " We provide our relief to the people of Afghanistan, not to Afghanistan’s ruling factions. Our aid bypasses the Taliban, who have done little to alleviate the suffering of the Afghan people, and indeed have done much to exacerbate it. "
http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/this_just_in/documents/01839506.htm





Well three officially recognised the taliban, Pakistan, Saudi and UAE, but quite a few other countries unofficially recognised the regime, or held talks of some sort with them. Canada, America and China are three that I can remember having talks with them.

You do know recognising a country doesn't mean you support their domestic or international policy. Pakistan supported them (as did most afghans) because they thought they were the first group serious about ending the civil war, plus the fact a lot of them were Afghan refugees who had been living in camps in Pakistan.

My point was Taliban was an illegal govt. since it did not have international UN recognition. Yet Pakistan and Saudi Arabia maintained official relationship with an illegal govt.
Also I am highly skeptical about your claim that Taliban were liked by most Afghans. Actually Taliban was brutalluy repressive regime based on the interpretation of 7th century Islam and was hated by most Afghans.

US may have talked to them through back channels but that was not "official".
US does not have any official relation with Iran either, does not mean that there are no back channel communication.

Praxus
29 Jul 04,, 23:35
Osama bil ladin is son of a bitch and his dad is USA

usa has supported all the bloody jihad against ussr in afghanistan and brought riligious extremists from all over the world to afghanistan.Osama worked for cia for so long( not sure about if he does now).Usa has used islamic extremism to suppress progresive movements in countries like Pakistan iran ,arabs and so on

Actually he is a son of a bitch and that bitch is Militant Islam.


Usa has used islamic extremism to suppress progresive movements in countries like Pakistan iran ,arabs and so on

How so?

Aryan
30 Jul 04,, 00:05
Cato Institute is giving you the wrong impression, yes Bush Administration sanctioned $43 milloion for Afghan aid in May 2001, but none of that money was ment to be given to Taliban. All the money was given to UN & NGO's.
US was the largest aid donor to Afghanistan but did not pay a single penny to Taliban.

Politicians have a way of adding spin to gestures, Powell didn't want joe public to think Americans were paying money to Taliban, so the aid program is an appropriate gesture for that. If it wasn't going to help the Taliban, then why use it to reward them for cutting down on opium production? And if America can donate money to the citizens of a nation, without also helping out the government, why didn't it give a $43 million aid program to the Iraqis under Saddam?


My point was Taliban was an illegal govt. since it did not have international UN recognition. Yet Pakistan and Saudi Arabia maintained official relationship with an illegal govt.

I don't give a shit about the UN, nor do most Pakistanis. UN are too busy with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and stopping little african tribes from killing each other than implementing serious policy where it matters, like Kashmir for instance.


Also I am highly skeptical about your claim that Taliban were liked by most Afghans. Actually Taliban was brutalluy repressive regime based on the interpretation of 7th century Islam and was hated by most Afghans.

I never said Taliban were liked by most Afghans, but when they first came around, a lot of Afghans, and Pushtuns in particular did support them. The current president of Afghanistan, Karzai was one of them. But I don't doubt that once they were in power they were bad people.


US may have talked to them through back channels but that was not "official".
US does not have any official relation with Iran either, does not mean that there are no back channel communication.

So whats the difference? You "officially" don't recognise them, but are happy to have "backdoor" discussions with them. They were our neighbours and we had (and still have) 3 million Afghan refugees in Pakistan. Sure they were cruel and evil, but you deal with the world as it is, not as it ought to be.

Ray
30 Jul 04,, 02:27
Backdoor diplomacy is a part of international politics. It is also called Track2 diplomacy. Kissinger used Pakistan for talks with China, even though the USA wa not on official talking terms.

That ensured a sort of regime change in China, if you will.

DarkAngeL999
01 Aug 04,, 23:54
Aryan

You seem to be suffering from an identity complex from what i have read. Pakistanis atleast the eastern half of the country i.e Panjabis and Sindhs respectively from Panjab and Sindh province are of INDIAN heritage, call yourself Afro-carribean or Hispanic for anyone cares, that doesn't change facts. Your greatparents and their ancestors were Indians from INDIA, linguistically, culturally and historically you are tied to India, in essence Pakistan spawned from India, deal with it.
:biggrin:

Aryan
02 Aug 04,, 00:48
You seem to be suffering from an identity complex from what i have read. Pakistanis atleast the eastern half of the country i.e Panjabis and Sindhs respectively from Panjab and Sindh province are of INDIAN heritage, call yourself Afro-carribean or Hispanic for anyone cares, that doesn't change facts.

Indian can mean a number of things, if you are talking about the Indian subcontinent then yes, sure I'm Indian, but in the same sense that a German or a Brit is European. That would apply to anywhere in Pakistan, Afghanistan (Pusto dominated areas at least, India, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka.If you are a Pushtoon, so would you. All fall under the Indian subcontinent catergory. I'm Kashmiri btw, I'm not Punjabi or Sindhi.


Your greatparents and their ancestors were Indians from INDIA, linguistically, culturally and historically you are tied to India, in essence Pakistan spawned from India, deal with it.

Again, if you are talking about the geographical sub-continent then sure I am tied to India. But the modern nation state India, which is the legacy of the British concept to rule the region. Pakistan, or the region and people that constituted Pakistan in the past have largely had an independent history from her adjoining regions, much like any other nation state. In the words of our great leader, Quid-e-Azam, "We are a nation with our own distinctive culture and civilization, language and literature, art and architecture, names and nomenclature, sense of values and proportion, legal laws and moral code, customs and calendar, history and tradition, aptitudes and ambitions; in short, we have our own distinctive outlook on life and of life. By all canons of international law, we are a nation."

Ray
05 Aug 04,, 04:25
The Future of Aghanistan

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/04/international/asia/04afgh.html?pagewanted=2

The first article is over two pages.
The second one is half a page.

JanKhandeAfghan
10 Aug 04,, 23:33
Opium is good, i wish Afghan government legitimize it so farmers could cultivate more! Indeed what the F is the difference between Opium and Alcohol? Why in this wild world cheap Russian alcohol is allowed to come to Muslim countries but when we send them some good opium they cry out laud like bitches? It is simple, as long as there is demand there will be supply, and more power to Afghan formers to cultivate opium, special when those SOB Russian bastards have laid more then twenty million mains in Afghanistan and there is not enough land left to for agriculture. Even in US the tobacco companies are not shut down because they pay Billions of dollars Tax every year. Although Tobbaco kills thousands of people each year (more then Opium) and so is Alcohol!

Legalize the opium, send more over sea special to filthy Russia-----consider this a pay back for destroying Afghanistan, killing more then twenty percent of population (two million) and being responsible for all miseries and suffering we Afghans see today! Special for becoming weak and destroyed after Soviet defeat that a filthy brown----- third rated and cultureless punks like ***** trying to impose a government in shape of Taliban in our country!

Vengeance Vengeance Vengeance










The Afghans are independent people, I agree with that, they are rebellious to external authority. However the past and the present also show us another side of the Aghan people, not only are the Afghans rebellious and independent people, they are also the pinnacle of the worlds drug trade.

My mate lost 3 of his friends guarding the Tadzhik-Afghan border from Afghan drug traffickers and smugglers.
My uncle was in Afghanistan and almost got hooked on opium, he said that all Afghans do during the day is get high and chill out.
Do you not reckon that drug free Afghanistan will not only benefit itself but the whole world?
However I highly doubt that Afghanistan will ever abandon it's drug cropping culture.
The US should napalm bomb every single opium field in Afghanistan without regard to civilian casualities, that is the only way the world can be free of your countries drugs.

JanKhandeAfghan
10 Aug 04,, 23:59
Dear Aryan,
I have a couple of question for you
How you tell that those people in "tea house" where Afghan? Can you tell the deference between a people of Quetta, Peshawar and those from Afghanistan? ha? Don't think you or anyone else can differentiate between Afghans from Pashtonkha and Afghans from Afghanistan.

i try to find a hint that will help me tell the deference(any deference, language, culture, race, religion) but could not. Here are my findings.



http://www.bartleby.com/65/pa/Pashto.html

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001.

Pashto


(psh´t) (KEY) , Pushtu (–t) (KEY) , or Afghan, language belonging to the Iranian group of the Indo-Iranian subfamily of the Indo-European family of languages. See Indo-Iranian languages.



http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0580192.html

Pa•than

Pronunciation: (pu-tän', put-hän'), [key]
—n.
1. Afghan (def. 1).
2. an Afghan dwelling in India.



Pash•to

Pronunciation: (push'tO), [key]
—n.
an Indo-European, Iranian language that is the official language of Afghanistan and the chief vernacular of the eastern part of the nation. Also,Pushtu,Pushto.Also called Afghan, Afghani.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushtu_language




As you can see Afghans are one people! The British impose "border" can not divide as Afghans as a people! Remember blood is ticker then water!
Like one of great Pashton leader ones said
"I was an Afghan for 5000 years, a Muslim for 1400 years and was imposed to be part of Pakistan for only 50 years!"

All in all, don’ you think it shows the corruption and impotent of **** government when every “tea house” in ***** sells opium? Off course it is an open secret that the corrupt **** army generals and politicians are the real beneficiary of Opium trade in area!



Darkangel

You tell me why you're called Darkangel, then we'll talk.

Qwerty

Tell me about it, areas full of Afghan immigrants such as Peshawar or Quetta are full of "tea houses" where people get loaded off opium all day. Afghan women take it as well, they even give it to their children. Worse and more uncivilised in my opinion than the subsaharan African tribes. I read somewhere 90% of heroin that makes the streets of western Europe originates from Afghanistan.

I think we need to deport these ungrateful creatures back to Afghanistan, they certainly can't be trusted.

Lets not forget the age-old Hindu saying:

"Trust a Brahmin before a snake, and a snake before a harlot, and a harlot before an Afghan"

Aryan
11 Aug 04,, 00:16
Dear Aryan,
I have a couple of question for you
How you tell that those people in "tea house" where Afghan? Can you tell the deference between a people of Quetta, Peshawar and those from Afghanistan? ha? Don't think you or anyone else can differentiate between Afghans from Pashtonkha and Afghans from Afghanistan.

Afghan refugees have a distinct aura about them. It isn't difficult to tell them apart.


http://www.bartleby.com/65/pa/Pashto.html

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001.

Pashto


(psh´t) (KEY) , Pushtu (–t) (KEY) , or Afghan, language belonging to the Iranian group of the Indo-Iranian subfamily of the Indo-European family of languages. See Indo-Iranian languages.



http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0580192.html

Pa•than

Pronunciation: (pu-tän', put-hän'), [key]
—n.
1. Afghan (def. 1).
2. an Afghan dwelling in India.



Pash•to

Pronunciation: (push'tO), [key]
—n.
an Indo-European, Iranian language that is the official language of Afghanistan and the chief vernacular of the eastern part of the nation. Also,Pushtu,Pushto.Also called Afghan, Afghani.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushtu_language

I don't get what you are trying to prove with these definitions. You'll have to run that by me.




As you can see Afghans are one people! The British impose "border" can not divide as Afghans as a people! Remember blood is ticker then water!

Afghanistan is certainly not one people. There are Pushto, tajik, hazara, turkmen and a whole host of others. The non-Pashto in Afghanistan absolutely despise the Pashto. They have historically oppressed them, and many felt Pashto nationalist groups supported the taliban to continue the oppression of minority and shia groups on Afghanistan.


Like one of great Pashton leader ones said
"I was an Afghan for 5000 years, a Muslim for 1400 years and was imposed to be part of Pakistan for only 50 years!"

Well your great Pashton wahabbi can settle in Afghanistan if he likes, alternatively he can settle in wahabbi paradise Saudi Arabia, where he could serve his Arab owners better.

JanKhandeAfghan
11 Aug 04,, 00:28
Your list of Pashtuns honored by Pakistan's military is quite touching, really, but recall please that in recent action in Wazir Agency the Pashtuns were removed from leadership positions and Panjabis put in their place because Pashtuns were not going to fire on fellow Pasthuns. Panjabi officers that were caught were killed and their bodies mutilated----- Pakthuns in Pakistan have killed scores of **** army men in defense of Taliban/al -Qaeda Arabs, Chechens and Pakhtuns. Mind you that majority of people who fight **** army are not Taliban or Alqahida as your terrorist government claims to be. This clearly shows the affection between the NWFP Pakhtuns and Pakistan, huh?
No Pashton voluntary claim to be Pakistan----I have seen a lot of Pashtons who even hold **** passport but when I called them Pakistani they become furious---they considered being Pakistani as an insults. This shows the royalty of Pashtons to Pakistan! Personally I am a Pashton, my father is from Mardan which is part of Pakistan i was born and raised here in US, in my family being called Pakistani is the worst insult ever! Indeed if you are sure about Pashtons royalty to Pakistan then why don’t allow them to vote and see what they want for themselves. Why at the time of partition the Pashtons where only given two choices?
1) be part of Pakistan
2) be part of India.

Why we were not given the option to choose independence, or join Afghanistan. We have noting in common with Pakistan other the religion, we have deferent culture, deferent language, deferent history and even deferent race. Our history, our identity and our tradition lays with Afghanistan! Sooner or later we will join our mother land Afghanistan-----the sooner you ***** realize this the better is for us all. You guys can not divide Afghans using Islam and brainwashing some village guy into fanataic Taliban or other extremist.

Note: Even the Taliban did not recognize the Durand line as border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, Taliban a genuinely of **** making and not of Afghan making! This must tell you alot where Pashtons royality really lays!






Ray,

please .... we have already discussed this to boredom before ...

Aryan and me are Kashmiris ... and I dion't think you get more aryan than that in our subcontinent.


as far as the pukhtoon thingy; may I suggest that a Bengali like you, please do not try to speak on their behalf ...

Besides the population of Pukhtoons in Pak and in our army and in our institutions are far far more than those on the other side of the border ...

and the all claim to belong to Pakistan ... lets not fool ourselves ..

logically, considering the figures and the emotions of our Pukhtoon, we have a stronger claim to the Pukhtoon areas in Afghanistan to join and unite with their original motherlands in Pakistan ...

Please .... lets not get into this ...


anyways, if we stay away from this topic .... and get back to the topic, I think Afghanistan will have a bright and prosperous future.

JanKhandeAfghan
11 Aug 04,, 00:52
Afghan refugees have a distinct aura about them. It isn't difficult to tell them apart

distinct aura bawaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa so for brown Pak like yourself who is easily distinguish among Pashtons--- Afghan "refugees" (Afghans people in Peshtonkhawa are internal displace not refugees since the Durand treaty expired long ago and legally and morally Balochistan and Pashtonwakha are part of Afghanistan!) feel deferent? ahahah Elaborate more, in what way Afghans refugees have distinct aura?





I don't get what you are trying to prove with these definitions. You'll have to run that by me.

Daaa no worries you might get it in a week or two :biggrin: On serious note, that links was to show that Afghans(Pashtons) are one people, there is no difference between an Afghan from Peshawar an Afghan from Kabul or ANY OTHER PLACE! Also that Afghan, Pathan and Pakhton means the same and are used interchangeably to mean the same people!






Afghanistan is certainly not one people. There are Pushto, tajik, hazara, turkmen and a whole host of others. The non-Pashto in Afghanistan absolutely despise the Pashto. They have historically oppressed them, and many felt Pashto nationalist groups supported the taliban to continue the oppression of minority and shia groups on Afghanistan.

Afghanistan is the country's name and the people are called Afghanistani! Historically from thousands of years these people have been living side by side and were part of one kingdom or empire! Afghan means only Pashtons, and non-pashtons people of Afghanistan are called Afghanistani. Just like in India----muslim are called Hinduistani and Hindus are simply Hindu!
Indeed it was only recently after soviet defeat which left Afghanistan vulnerable and weak some groups were created by our neighbors to gain influences. Mind you that no group or party in Afghanistan what’s so ever wants or demands the division of Afghanistan unlike any country in region! Afghanistan today is like a injured lion which rats like Pakistan, Iran and Uzbekistan trying to hurt! Thanks god for America soon we will be able to stand by our feet and then may god save you brown-butted ***** from vengeance of Afghans!



Well your great Pashton wahabbi can settle in Afghanistan if he likes, alternatively he can settle in wahabbi paradise Saudi Arabia, where he could serve his Arab owners better.

Wahabbi :confused: nope this was stated by greats Afghan secular nationalist Khan Abdul Ghafaar Khan----Gandi of frontier! Indeed and mark my words it will be much better if Pashtons(Afghans) kick all you brown-butted ***** to east side of Attack river and save our country, our culture, and our identity from barbaric **** “Islam” ------Dewbandi and Wahadi dogmas!

Aryan
11 Aug 04,, 01:18
Your list of Pashtuns honored by Pakistan's military is quite touching, really, but recall please that in recent action in Wazir Agency the Pashtuns were removed from leadership positions and Panjabis put in their place because Pashtuns were not going to fire on fellow Pasthuns. Panjabi officers that were caught were killed and their bodies mutilated-----

Most of the "soldiers" killed were actually paramilitary FC, i.e Pathans.


Pakthuns in Pakistan have killed scores of **** army men in defense of Taliban/al -Qaeda Arabs, Chechens and Pakhtuns.

And millions of your pashtun wahabi warriors have been killed in bombing raids by America. Americans used thermobaric bombs in caves known to be hideouts by your heros. They kill by creating a huge pressure wave which effectively suffocates them by sucking the air out of the lungs of victims. Imagine what your holy Islamic warriors had to go through before their last moments in life, do you think they squealed for jihad then?


Mind you that majority of people who fight **** army are not Taliban or Alqahida as your terrorist government claims to be. This clearly shows the affection between the NWFP Pakhtuns and Pakistan, huh?

In Wana? Well tribal leaders have offered some limited support to Pakistani forces, including launching a few search missions for the terrorists themselves. Not that I trust them of course. Tribal leaders are from the same school of thought. They will be bypassed and the poeple will be given a decent education as well as other necessities they have been deprived of.


No Pashton voluntary claim to be Pakistan----I have seen a lot of Pashtons who even hold **** passport but when I called them Pakistani they become furious---they considered being Pakistani as an insults.

Then tell me, why do you Afghans stay in Pakistani refugee camps? You certainly aren't welcome there, the local population hate you. And don't say what I'm saying is untrue because it is standard procedure when assisting Afghan refugee camps to contribute an equal amount to the local Pathan population. Its to prevent anti Afghan rioting there which has happened in the past.


This shows the royalty of Pashtons to Pakistan! Personally I am a Pashton, my father is from Mardan which is part of Pakistan i was born and raised here in US, in my family being called Pakistani is the worst insult ever! Indeed if you are sure about Pashtons royalty to Pakistan then why don’t allow them to vote and see what they want for themselves.

I can think of hundreds of examples of Pathan (not Paston as you call them) pledging loyalty to Pakistan, even fighting and dying for our nation. We've had Pathan presidents, prime ministers and are found throughout the military and armed forces.


Why at the time of partition the Pashtons where only given two choices?
1) be part of Pakistan
2) be part of India.

We Kashmiris weren't given that choice, how do you think we feel?


Why we were not given the option to choose independence, or join Afghanistan. We have noting in common with Pakistan other the religion, we have deferent culture, deferent language, deferent history and even deferent race. Our history, our identity and our tradition lays with Afghanistan! Sooner or later we will join our mother land Afghanistan-----the sooner you ***** realize this the better is for us all. You guys can not divide Afghans using Islam and brainwashing some village guy into fanataic Taliban or other extremist.

Well Pathans of Pakistan are very different to the Pathans of Afghanistan, for one they are less extremist and less intolerant.


Note: Even the Taliban did not recognize the Durand line as border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, Taliban a genuinely of **** making and not of Afghan making! This must tell you alot where Pashtons royality really lays!

I don't recognise the Durand line either, I think all Pathan areas of Afghanistan belong to Pakistan. As Pakistan is a more stable nation and has an organised army, we have a stronger claim to it than that so-called government in Afghanistan. It would be beneficial to the Pashtoon, they would benefit from Musharraf's moderate enlightenment vision, and perhaps become civilised human beings like what we see on our side of the border.

Also, the minority Dari speaking communities would be spared of the centuries of persecution they have been going through under Iranian protection.

Aryan
11 Aug 04,, 02:26
distinct aura bawaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa so for brown Pak like yourself who is easily distinguish among Pashtons---

An Afghan calling a Kashmiri brown? Now I've heard everything... Post a picture and I'll do the same, we'll see who is more "brown".
(As if anyone in the region didn't have brown skin, but I'll play along with your little game)


Afghan "refugees" (Afghans people in Peshtonkhawa are internal displace not refugees since the Durand treaty expired long ago and legally and morally Balochistan and Pashtonwakha are part of Afghanistan!) feel deferent? ahahah

Well yes it has expired, but how are you going to challenge it? You don't have an army, you don't have an economy, all your neighbours have reasons to see the end of you. All you have is opium and rugs. Pakistan on the other hand has an army, and friends in the region. We are also an ally of America and the west ;).

What is to stop Pakistan and a nationalist post-Mullah Iran to occupy Afghanistan and split it between us? No one is going to oppose us, and if manage to cause peace in the region, they would support it.


Balochistan

Baloch separatists don't want anything to do with Afghanistan. They want a nation of their own, carved out of Iranian, Pakistani and Afghan territory. Don't pretend you Pushtoons have anything to do with them.


Elaborate more, in what way Afghans refugees have distinct aura?

Well all the tell tale signs of a malnourished refugee. I'm not condoning it in any way, I actually feel sorry for them. But they belong in their own country, Afghanistan.


Daaa no worries you might get it in a week or two :biggrin: On serious note, that links was to show that Afghans(Pashtons) are one people, there is no difference between an Afghan from Peshawar an Afghan from Kabul or ANY OTHER PLACE!

Afghan is not the same as Pashton, I object to that. Afghan is nationality and Pashton is an ethnic group. Referring to Pashtons as Afghan was exlusively a Pakistani/British Indian usage, to classify an ethnic group within the regional context. The same as how Balochis are sometimes referred to as Irani.


Afghanistan is the country's name and the people are called Afghanistani! Historically from thousands of years these people have been living side by side and were part of one kingdom or empire! Afghan means only Pashtons, and non-pashtons people of Afghanistan are called Afghanistani.

Never heard of an Afghan calling themselves "Afghanistani", its always Afghan. Here:

Nationality:
noun: Afghan(s)
adjective: Afghan
CIA factbook (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/af.html)


Just like in India----muslim are called Hinduistani and Hindus are simply Hindu!

Where did you pull that from? Indians are called Indian, muslim or hindu.
Hindustani is a language in India, spoke by Hindus and muslims. You have no clue what you are talking about.


Indeed it was only recently after soviet defeat which left Afghanistan vulnerable and weak some groups were created by our neighbors to gain influences. Mind you that no group or party in Afghanistan what’s so ever wants or demands the division of Afghanistan unlike any country in region! Afghanistan today is like a injured lion which rats like Pakistan, Iran and Uzbekistan trying to hurt!

Did you ever stop to think you could have been responsible for your own problems? Blaming everyone but yourself. Russia walked in and tried to civilise you, they set up schools for women began contruction projects, but your illiterate population wanted nothing to do with it! Its easy playing the blame game. And if it wasn't for American and Pakistani help, you would be speaking russian.


Thanks god for America soon we will be able to stand by our feet and then may god save you brown-butted ***** from vengeance of Afghans!

So now all of a sudden you like America? What about all that holy wahabbi Jihad talk? Exporting opium to the infidels, because they export it to the muslim nations?


Wahabbi :confused: nope this was stated by greats Afghan secular nationalist Khan Abdul Ghafaar Khan ----Gandi of frontier!

He was a traitor, a communist and an enemy of Pakistan. He had no support here, only the Pushtos of Afghanistan liked him.

Indeed and mark my words it will be much better if Pashtons(Afghans) kick all you brown-butted ***** to east side of Attack river and save our country, our culture,
and our identity from barbaric **** “Islam” ------Dewbandi and Wahadi dogmas!
Yes evil Pakistani Islam, allowing women to drive and not wear tents. Must be classified as a form of genocide. :eek:

JanKhandeAfghan
11 Aug 04,, 06:27
An Afghan calling a Kashmiri brown? Now I've heard everything... Post a picture and I'll do the same, we'll see who is more "brown".
(As if anyone in the region didn't have brown skin, but I'll play along with your little game)

The reason why Kashmirs look some light comparing to other Indian subcontinent is cause it was part of Afghanistan and it was only 150 years ago that it become part of British rule. Also during the fight against Indian, Pakistan encourage more then half million Pashtons----those that had no land and work----to Kashmir that is why Paksitan got a part of Kashmir!
As for as brown ****, it is a well known facts----just see your face in mirror you will know what I am talking about.
Yeek lets talk race! Afghans are part if Mediterranean race which in itself is subrace of CAUCASOID:

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/subraces.html


”Irano-Afghan: The long-faced, high-headed, hook-nosed type, usually of tall stature, which forms the principal element in the population of Iran, Afghanistan, and the Turkoman country, and which is also present in Palestine, parts of Arabia, and North Africa. It is probably related to the old Corded type of the Neolithic and Bronze Age.”

While ***** including Kashmirs (with exception of Afghans---Pashtons and Balouchs) are Dravidian!

Here is a typical photo of *****

http://home.ccci.org/bring/PL/2004/Pakistani%20women%20and%20Angie.JPG

http://home.ccci.org/bring/PL/2003/October%202003/Pakistani%20women%20dancing.jpg

http://www.persecution.org/concern/2002/08/p2yaqoobs-family.jpg











Well yes it has expired, but how are you going to challenge it? You don't have an army, you don't have an economy, all your neighbours have reasons to see the end of you. All you have is opium and rugs. Pakistan on the other hand has an army, and friends in the region. We are also an ally of America and the west ;). What is to stop Pakistan and a nationalist post-Mullah Iran to occupy Afghanistan and split it between us? No one is going to oppose us, and if manage to cause peace in the region, they would support it.

Wait and see, just wait and see the real show have not yet started, mind you when Afghanistan army were marching on sub-continent your forefathers were wearing those diapers------by he way why in this wild world you all wear Afghan(Pashtons) cloth? I swear the reason I do not wear my own Piran Tonban is all brown ****, and camel arabs now a days wear my traditional cloths.
Also ally of America and west? With ally like Pakistan who needs an enemy? Sooner or later America and the west will see the real face of you, mind you the reason why America is allying with Pakistan is caz there is no alternative, Iran is ruled by Mullahs and central Asia by those ex-commies. Indeed do you think America will this easily let go of your nuclear weapon profiling? Selling to Libya, Iran and north Korea and blaming it all in a stupid corrupt scientist Dr Qadir Khan? Indeed once we have a strong government in Afghanistan, what will prevent us from attacking Pakistan----we don’t even need to do that, all we need is to encourage Baloch, Pashton and Sindis, and on other hand allow India to take care of Panjab. Indeed sooner you guys won’t be able to keep with much larger and much mightier India and since other then religion you ***** (with exception of Pashton and Balouchs) have everything in common with Indians we will see a reunification of Panjab and Sind with India and Pashtonistan and Balochistan with Afghanistan . We and Indians will live side by side in peace as a neighbor like historically used too. We Pashtons never had any beef with Hindus and we do not hate them like ***** does, Indian is a traditional ally of Afghanistan.

Note: If you are still not satisfied with facts above which sooner or later will be implemented------ then be all means bring it on, you and wossy Iranians both at the same time, I will make sure to wait for ***** cowards with my AK 47! It will indeed be the happiest day of my life to see cowards brown ***** finally grown a dick and doing their fight themselves!

[
Baloch separatists don't want anything to do with Afghanistan. They want a nation of their own, carved out of Iranian, Pakistani and Afghan territory. Don't pretend you Pushtoons have anything to do with them.]


Baloch and Pashtons belong to same race----irano-Afghan--- Mediterranean!More then 45% of population of Balochistan are Pashtons, even the city Quatta was given to Balochs as a dowry for a Balochi princesses who married an Afghan princes in 17 century! Read your history, but today ***** are trying to fake history and kill afghan cultural influences, this is the reason why Kandhari Bazaar was renamed as Qahad Bazaar(after British agent Ali Jenah a known Parsi) and Kabuli Bazaar is renamed as Leqat ali Bazaar!




[
Well all the tell tale signs of a malnourished refugee. I'm not condoning it in any way, I actually feel sorry for them. But they belong in their own country, Afghanistan.


First of all you should realize that NWFP, and Balochistan are their country! Legally, morally, historically and culturally! Second you know I never seen a “malnourished” Afghan in my whole life, not even after all this hardship we Afghans have been throw! I saw the footage of Afghan and Afghanistan after 9/11 being broadcast here in States twenty four seven but never I seen a malnourished child or adult! All seemed tall, fair skinned, and surprisingly happy even in miseries!




Afghan is not the same as Pashton, I object to that. Afghan is nationality and Pashton is an ethnic group. Referring to Pashtons as Afghan was exlusively a Pakistani/British Indian usage, to classify an ethnic group within the regional context. The same as how Balochis are sometimes referred to as Irani.

I have already proven to you without any reasonable doubt that Afghan and Pashtons means the same people.
And here iam restating the proof!
http://www.bartleby.com/65/pa/Pashto.html

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001.

Pashto


(psh´t) (KEY) , Pushtu (–t) (KEY) , or Afghan, language belonging to the Iranian group of the Indo-Iranian subfamily of the Indo-European family of languages. See Indo-Iranian languages.



http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0580192.html

Pa•than

Pronunciation: (pu-tän', put-hän'), [key]
—n.
1. Afghan (def. 1).
2. an Afghan dwelling in India.



Pash•to

Pronunciation: (push'tO), [key]
—n.
an Indo-European, Iranian language that is the official language of Afghanistan and the chief vernacular of the eastern part of the nation. Also,Pushtu,Pushto.Also called Afghan, Afghani.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pushtu_language









Did you ever stop to think you could have been responsible for your own problems? Blaming everyone but yourself. Russia walked in and tried to civilise you, they set up schools for women began contruction projects, but your illiterate population wanted nothing to do with it! Its easy playing the blame game. And if it wasn't for American and Pakistani help, you would be speaking russian.[

Funny that is a brown sack of sh*T **** who has No identity, lack culture and history and other then religion have no reason to be a country talking about civilization. Indeed Pakistani and civilization do not go together---an oxymoron term! Plus look who is talling aobut literacy----punk Pakistan and Afghanistan even after twenty five years of fighting in Afghaistan have the same percentage of literacy rate!
Afghanistan
Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
female: 21% (1999 est.)
total population: 36%
male: 51%

Pakistan

Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 45.7%
male: 59.8%
female: 30.6% (2003 est.)

Don’t see much deference, and mind you the reason Pakistan literacy is 45 percent is because of the money and Afghans teachers that purred in Pakistan as refugee. There was even an article which stated that Afghan refugees give cultureless ***** culture. Also Soviet had no plan to attack Afghanistan the only reason they did was to reach the warm waters of Indian ocean---Pakistan so be thankful for two million brave Afghans getting killed to prevent Soviets to enter your country. Since you ***** are known cowards, got your ass wiped three times by a much smaller country India(comparing to Soviet) it doesn’t a rocket scientist to predict what will happen when soviet invaded Pakistan. Also thanks Soviet invasion for your country pocketing billions of dollars in aid giving to Afghan refugee, billions of dollars worth in weapon and other assistance which you guys received in the name of Afghanistan.



So now all of a sudden you like America? What about all that holy wahabbi Jihad talk? Exporting opium to the infidels, because they export it to the muslim nations?

I do not like or hate America, my liking or hating of America depends on America's action towards my country, today America is our number one ally and helping us to take care of Pakistanis syndrome in shape Arabs, and Taliban---who are a genially **** ideology---dewabandi which has its base in Pakistan, since Pakistan has no other identity other then religion! America has an Afghan-American as ambassador in Afghanistan, have military presence in Afghanistan and help us go after **** rats in shape of Talibans so I really like the good Americans are doing and I wish them all the best! Iam also thankful of Mr Bush, for he has been a stronge supporter of Afghan and Afghanistan and will vote for him in coming election since he deserves to win!



He was a traitor, a communist and an enemy of Pakistan. He had no support here, only the Pushtos of Afghanistan liked him.
First of all it is Pashtons not Pashto, you can also use Afghan since it means the same thing. Pashto is our language! Second he was known as king of Pashtonkhawa and had extrodnarlly high support in Pashonistan but sadly his enemy was in shape of British and their agent Ali Jenah, an alcoholic punk trick him to boycott the election which had only two choice---Pakistan or India! And the rest is history!



Yes evil Pakistani Islam, allowing women to drive and not wear tents. Must be classified as a form of genocide. :eek:
Evil **** Islam is Dewbandi, evil **** Islam is Taliban---mind you Taliban were “educated” in **** Madrass, never in Afghanistan’s 5000 history and 1400 Islamic history ever a movement preached the bs and **** hot-airs that Taliban were! The **** Islam is betrayal, the **** Islam is to lock women in home, the **** Islam is to prevent education for girls, the **** Islam is rape, violence, distraction and killing. Ever wonder where the Taliban learn to killed SHia Hazaras? You guess it right in **** Madrass and **** society where Shai and Sunis kill each other like dogs!
Sadly Afghan village people have been infected with **** disease the filth known as Dewbandi Islam and the lack of culture and identity as ****!
Why don’t you tell us what identity you as a **** have other then being Muslim? Who is a ****? Don’t you think the idea of Pakistan as a separate home for Indian’s Muslims have failed miserably today since there is more Muslim in India then in Pakistan?

These are **** Islam, read it, and sadly Afghan refugees special those village people have been infected by **** “islam” diseases which we saw in shape of “Mujahdeen” and Taliban!

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/08/04/pakistan.justice/

http://web.amnesty.org/web/wire.nsf/July2004/Pakistan

http://english.pravda.ru/fun/2002/07/02/31654.html

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1835/

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1923/context/archive
http://www.equityfeminism.com/articles/2002/000081.html

““According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, every two hours a woman is raped in Pakistan and every eight hours a woman is subjected to gang rape. The frequency of rape is thought to be much higher but many rapes remain unreported due to a combination of social taboos, discriminatory laws and victimization by the police. Meanwhile, Pakistani law is punishing victims of rape as though they were criminals while the perpetrators go free.”




You see the problem is that you guys lack culture, history and identity that is the reason you guys support terrosim in region! Half of you talk English with tick accent that is :biggrin: and pretend to be British---while your brown skin really give you out, other half pretend to be Arab and talk about Islam while you guys are the most an-islamic and unethical people in face of planet. Like this American write one wrote “A Pakistani will sell his mother for you for 20 dollars.” Your country is second most curropt nation in face of planet and your people have no ethics and morality.

JanKhandeAfghan
11 Aug 04,, 07:01
[QUOTE]Most of the "soldiers" killed were actually paramilitary FC, i.e Pathans.

B shit! Pashton soilder refuse to fight their fellow Pashton.
I happen to bring facts while you talk typical **** hot-air! :biggrin:

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1108831/posts

"The way in which Pashtun tribals dealt with hostages is also a reflection of this split. The tribals that held Pashtun paramilitary force members hostage are said to have treated them with respect, later releasing them after a deal with Pakistani authorities. However, the soldiers that were of Punjab descent were killed and their bodies mutilated."
This really shows the royality of Pashton to Panjabi and Pakistan!




And millions of your pashtun wahabi warriors have been killed in bombing raids by America. Americans used thermobaric bombs in caves known to be hideouts by your heros. They kill by creating a huge pressure wave which effectively suffocates them by sucking the air out of the lungs of victims. Imagine what your holy Islamic warriors had to go through before their last moments in life, do you think they squealed for jihad then?

A million Pashton been killed? o boy were you hear this from some **** publication? :biggrin: The number of civilian Afghan killed during Bombing of US is estimated to be around 3-4 thousands! Which is indeed a cheap prize for Afghans to pay to get ride of filthy **** "Islam"!



In Wana? Well tribal leaders have offered some limited support to Pakistani forces, including launching a few search missions for the terrorists themselves. Not that I trust them of course. Tribal leaders are from the same school of thought. They will be bypassed and the poeple will be given a decent education as well as other necessities they have been deprived of.
B shit agian, even today **** army is unable to leave their camps! Mind you that People of area not the Taliban or Arabs have raised aganist the *****! Which again proves one thing----Pashtons aversion of Pakistan!




Then tell me, why do you Afghans stay in Pakistani refugee camps? You certainly aren't welcome there, the local population hate you. And don't say what I'm saying is untrue because it is standard procedure when assisting Afghan refugee camps to contribute an equal amount to the local Pathan population. Its to prevent anti Afghan rioting there which has happened in the past.

Only 30 to 40 % of Afghan "refugees" live in camp, these camps were establish to be a recruiting ground for CIA for their fight against soviets! While the rest live in cities, villages and towns as a ordinary Pashtons! Also you need to realize that not all people of Pashtonistan are Pashtons, there are minority like Hinko, Berawis Panjabis and… these people see Afghans as further marginizing them and making them more minority since Afghans will add to percentage of Pashtons in Pashonistan and make Pashtons an absolute majority!





I can think of hundreds of examples of Pathan (not Paston as you call them) pledging loyalty to Pakistan, even fighting and dying for our nation. We've had Pathan presidents, prime ministers and are found throughout the military and armed forces.
We are talking about Afghan(Pashton) majoirty not some wana be Pashton who claim to be Pashton but could not speak a word of Pashto and have noting as Pashton in him. Want me to give you examples?



We Kashmiris weren't given that choice, how do you think we feel?

Who give a rat about Kashmirs? Kashmirs has always been part of India, no matter if it was ruled by Muslim, Hindu or British! On other hand never before British take over Pashtonistan was part of India! It is an historical fact! Kashmirs culture is Indian, language is part of Indo-Aryan and race is Indian. While Pashton culture, and language is Indo-Iranian and race is Irano-Afghan


Well Pathans of Pakistan are very different to the Pathans of Afghanistan, for one they are less extremist and less intolerant.

A lame try differentiate between Afghans(Pashtons)! Funny indeed! Mind you that the extremist you are talking about has its roots in Pakistan, the Madrass, the Dewbandi and Wahabi sh*Ts----all Talibans were product of **** madrass not the other way around!!

I
don't recognise the Durand line either, I think all Pathan areas of Afghanistan belong to Pakistan. As Pakistan is a more stable nation and has an organised army, we have a stronger claim to it than that so-called government in Afghanistan. It would be beneficial to the Pashtoon, they would benefit from Musharraf's moderate enlightenment vision, and perhaps become civilised human beings like what we see on our side of the border.
Also, the minority Dari speaking communities would be spared of the centuries of persecution they have been going through under Iranian protection.

Do you think we Afghans are that inferior to accept being part of a cultureless, corrupt, filthy with no identity country like Pakistan and allow an Indian in shape of Besharaaf to rule us? :biggrin: Before trying to becoming civilized i suggest you ***** become a human first!
also you are misestimating the royalty of non-pashtons people of Afghanistan to Afghanistan--------not having any separatist movement after twenty six years of war really shows how royal and connected these people are to their country--Afghanistan



here is the proof of you scam bag filthy terroist *****!


Taliban suspect traces Pakistan link
Carlotta Gall/NYT The New York Times
Wednesday, August 4, 2004





See more of the world that matters - click here for home delivery of the International Herald Tribune.
< < Back to Start of Article
KABUL For months Afghan and U.S. officials have complained that, even while Pakistan cooperates in the fight against Al Qaeda, militant Islamic groups there are training fighters and sending them into Afghanistan to attack U.S. and Afghan forces.
.
Pakistani officials have rejected the allegations, saying they are unaware of any such training camps. Now the Afghan government has produced a young Pakistani, captured while fighting with the Taliban in southern Afghanistan three months ago, whose story would seem to back its complaints about Pakistan.
.
The prisoner, who gave his name as Muhammad Sohail, is a 17-year-old from the Pakistani port city of Karachi who is being held by the Afghan authorities in Kabul. In an interview in late July, in front of several prison guards, he said Pakistan was allowing militant groups to train and organize insurgents to fight in Afghanistan. Sohail said he hoped that granting the interview would increase his chances of being freed.
.
Sohail described his recruitment through his local mosque in Pakistan - by a group listed by the United States as having terrorist links - his military training in a camp not far from the capital, Islamabad, and his being dispatched, with several other Pakistanis, to Afghanistan.
.
He did not give all the details that intelligence officials said they had gleaned from him in interrogations, but he talked easily about his party and its leaders and said they had high-level support from within the establishment.
.
He said he had been recruited and trained within the past eight months by Jamiat-ul-Ansar, the new name for the Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen party, which was designated a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department and banned by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan in January 2002. Under its new name it is functioning, if more discreetly, and its leader, Fazlur Rehman Khalil, moves around freely.
.
Khalil has been involved in recruiting and training militants since the 1980s. In 1998, U.S. planes bombed his training camp in Afghanistan when they were targeting Osama bin Laden after the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The bombing killed a number of Pakistanis, and Khalil at the time vowed to take revenge against America for the attack.
.
Sohail is not the first Pakistani to be captured fighting alongside the Taliban and other militants in Afghanistan over the past two years. On at least one occasion, Pakistanis who were captured in a joint U.S.-$ Afghan military operation last year were handed back to Pakistan. But he is the first to be made available for an interview by the Afghan government. Intelligence officials said they had found on him a Jamiat-ul-Ansar membership card and a list of phone numbers of high-level party officials.
.
A Pakistani official interviewed recently described Sohail as a singular case and denied that Pakistani militants were showing up in Afghanistan.
.
The Pakistani ambassador to Afghanistan, Rustam Shah Mohmand, said he thought Jamiat-ul-Ansar and its network had been dismantled. "There is no ambiguity in our policy," he said. "The government does not sponsor, nor create, nor is aware of training camps. If they were aware of any, they would go and dismantle them."
.
Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, has stated publicly that Pakistan has not done nearly enough to stop the Taliban and other militants from using Pakistan's border areas as operational and recruiting bases. In a speech in Washington in April, he warned that, if Pakistan did not do the job on its side of the border, U.S. forces would have to do the job themselves. A Western diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity in an interview last month in Kabul said, "When you talk about Taliban, it's like fish in a barrel in Pakistan. They train, they rest there. They get support."
.
Western diplomats in Kabul and Pakistani political analysts have said that Pakistan has continued to allow the Taliban to operate to retain influence in Afghanistan. Pakistan supported the Taliban in the 1990s as a way to create an area where Pakistani forces could retreat to the west if war erupted with the country's longtime rival and neighbor to the east, India. Pakistan has also long tried to maintain influence over Afghanistan's largest ethnic group, the Pashtuns, because of its wariness of its own Pashtun minority in the border areas.
.
Sohail was probably chosen to fight in Afghanistan because he is a Pashtun, the dominant group in the Taliban. Born in Swat, near the Afghan border, he grew up in Karachi, left school at 15 and went to work in a confectionery shop.
.
"I was going to the mosque every Thursday, and they were saying you should go and do jihad," he said. "In Palestine, Chechnya, Cuba, France and a lot of places all over the world, they are mistreating Muslims. So I decided to do it and got training for one month."
.
He traveled with a group of 15 others from his mosque to a training camp near Mansehra, north of Islamabad. It was a remote place, in the mountains with lots of trees, he said. He received explosives and weapons training for one month there, he said.
.
After their training in Mansehra, Sohail and his group went to Islamabad and met Khalil, the leader of Jamiat-ul-Ansar, at his headquarters. Three months later, Khalil went to speak at their mosque and called the group up to fight, Sohail said. "He said, 'Go and fight the Americans.'"
.
They went to the Pakistani border town of Quetta, and then Sohail set off with four other fighters. They crossed the main border and drove to the city of Kandahar. They went to a designated hotel and, in a room, found a bag with weapons. The next day they headed to a mountain base near the town of Panjwai, not far west of Kandahar, where they joined about 50 fighters and rapidly became involved in combat operations themselves.
.
Sohail's account becomes vague after that. He said he fought for only one night and returned to Pakistan. Sent back into Afghanistan to gather information about casualties, he approached some Afghan police, thinking they were Taliban. They arrested him.
.
He is accused of taking part in an attack on the Panjwai District center in April, in which a police officer and two aid workers were killed, security officials said.
.
Sohail has received a 20-year sentence from a judge in Kabul. His appeal is in progress."I'm very sad," he said mournfully. "The jihad is over for me."
.
But he showed flashes of fanaticism, too. "I wish I was a prisoner of the Americans. Then I could die a martyr at their hands, or kill myself," he said.
.
KABUL For months Afghan and U.S. officials have complained that, even while Pakistan cooperates in the fight against Al Qaeda, militant Islamic groups there are training fighters and sending them into Afghanistan to attack U.S. and Afghan forces.
.
Pakistani officials have rejected the allegations, saying they are unaware of any such training camps. Now the Afghan government has produced a young Pakistani, captured while fighting with the Taliban in southern Afghanistan three months ago, whose story would seem to back its complaints about Pakistan.
.
The prisoner, who gave his name as Muhammad Sohail, is a 17-year-old from the Pakistani port city of Karachi who is being held by the Afghan authorities in Kabul. In an interview in late July, in front of several prison guards, he said Pakistan was allowing militant groups to train and organize insurgents to fight in Afghanistan. Sohail said he hoped that granting the interview would increase his chances of being freed.
.
Sohail described his recruitment through his local mosque in Pakistan - by a group listed by the United States as having terrorist links - his military training in a camp not far from the capital, Islamabad, and his being dispatched, with several other Pakistanis, to Afghanistan.
.
He did not give all the details that intelligence officials said they had gleaned from him in interrogations, but he talked easily about his party and its leaders and said they had high-level support from within the establishment.
.
He said he had been recruited and trained within the past eight months by Jamiat-ul-Ansar, the new name for the Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen party, which was designated a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department and banned by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan in January 2002. Under its new name it is functioning, if more discreetly, and its leader, Fazlur Rehman Khalil, moves around freely.
.
Khalil has been involved in recruiting and training militants since the 1980s. In 1998, U.S. planes bombed his training camp in Afghanistan when they were targeting Osama bin Laden after the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The bombing killed a number of Pakistanis, and Khalil at the time vowed to take revenge against America for the attack.
.
Sohail is not the first Pakistani to be captured fighting alongside the Taliban and other militants in Afghanistan over the past two years. On at least one occasion, Pakistanis who were captured in a joint U.S.-$ Afghan military operation last year were handed back to Pakistan. But he is the first to be made available for an interview by the Afghan government. Intelligence officials said they had found on him a Jamiat-ul-Ansar membership card and a list of phone numbers of high-level party officials.
.
A Pakistani official interviewed recently described Sohail as a singular case and denied that Pakistani militants were showing up in Afghanistan.
.
The Pakistani ambassador to Afghanistan, Rustam Shah Mohmand, said he thought Jamiat-ul-Ansar and its network had been dismantled. "There is no ambiguity in our policy," he said. "The government does not sponsor, nor create, nor is aware of training camps. If they were aware of any, they would go and dismantle them."
.
Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, has stated publicly that Pakistan has not done nearly enough to stop the Taliban and other militants from using Pakistan's border areas as operational and recruiting bases. In a speech in Washington in April, he warned that, if Pakistan did not do the job on its side of the border, U.S. forces would have to do the job themselves. A Western diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity in an interview last month in Kabul said, "When you talk about Taliban, it's like fish in a barrel in Pakistan. They train, they rest there. They get support."
.
Western diplomats in Kabul and Pakistani political analysts have said that Pakistan has continued to allow the Taliban to operate to retain influence in Afghanistan. Pakistan supported the Taliban in the 1990s as a way to create an area where Pakistani forces could retreat to the west if war erupted with the country's longtime rival and neighbor to the east, India. Pakistan has also long tried to maintain influence over Afghanistan's largest ethnic group, the Pashtuns, because of its wariness of its own Pashtun minority in the border areas.
.
Sohail was probably chosen to fight in Afghanistan because he is a Pashtun, the dominant group in the Taliban. Born in Swat, near the Afghan border, he grew up in Karachi, left school at 15 and went to work in a confectionery shop.
.
"I was going to the mosque every Thursday, and they were saying you should go and do jihad," he said. "In Palestine, Chechnya, Cuba, France and a lot of places all over the world, they are mistreating Muslims. So I decided to do it and got training for one month."
.
He traveled with a group of 15 others from his mosque to a training camp near Mansehra, north of Islamabad. It was a remote place, in the mountains with lots of trees, he said. He received explosives and weapons training for one month there, he said.
.
After their training in Mansehra, Sohail and his group went to Islamabad and met Khalil, the leader of Jamiat-ul-Ansar, at his headquarters. Three months later, Khalil went to speak at their mosque and called the group up to fight, Sohail said. "He said, 'Go and fight the Americans.'"
.
They went to the Pakistani border town of Quetta, and then Sohail set off with four other fighters. They crossed the main border and drove to the city of Kandahar. They went to a designated hotel and, in a room, found a bag with weapons. The next day they headed to a mountain base near the town of Panjwai, not far west of Kandahar, where they joined about 50 fighters and rapidly became involved in combat operations themselves.
.
Sohail's account becomes vague after that. He said he fought for only one night and returned to Pakistan. Sent back into Afghanistan to gather information about casualties, he approached some Afghan police, thinking they were Taliban. They arrested him.
.
He is accused of taking part in an attack on the Panjwai District center in April, in which a police officer and two aid workers were killed, security officials said.
.
Sohail has received a 20-year sentence from a judge in Kabul. His appeal is in progress."I'm very sad," he said mournfully. "The jihad is over for me."
.
But he showed flashes of fanaticism, too. "I wish I was a prisoner of the Americans. Then I could die a martyr at their hands, or kill myself," he said.
.
KABUL For months Afghan and U.S. officials have complained that, even while Pakistan cooperates in the fight against Al Qaeda, militant Islamic groups there are training fighters and sending them into Afghanistan to attack U.S. and Afghan forces.
.
Pakistani officials have rejected the allegations, saying they are unaware of any such training camps. Now the Afghan government has produced a young Pakistani, captured while fighting with the Taliban in southern Afghanistan three months ago, whose story would seem to back its complaints about Pakistan.
.
The prisoner, who gave his name as Muhammad Sohail, is a 17-year-old from the Pakistani port city of Karachi who is being held by the Afghan authorities in Kabul. In an interview in late July, in front of several prison guards, he said Pakistan was allowing militant groups to train and organize insurgents to fight in Afghanistan. Sohail said he hoped that granting the interview would increase his chances of being freed.
.
Sohail described his recruitment through his local mosque in Pakistan - by a group listed by the United States as having terrorist links - his military training in a camp not far from the capital, Islamabad, and his being dispatched, with several other Pakistanis, to Afghanistan.
.
He did not give all the details that intelligence officials said they had gleaned from him in interrogations, but he talked easily about his party and its leaders and said they had high-level support from within the establishment.
.
He said he had been recruited and trained within the past eight months by Jamiat-ul-Ansar, the new name for the Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen party, which was KABUL For months Afghan and U.S. officials have complained that, even while Pakistan cooperates in the fight against Al Qaeda, militant Islamic groups there are training fighters and sending them into Afghanistan to attack U.S. and Afghan forces.
.
Pakistani officials have rejected the allegations, saying they are unaware of any such training camps. Now the Afghan government has produced a young Pakistani, captured while fighting with the Taliban in southern Afghanistan three months ago, whose story would seem to back its complaints about Pakistan.
.
The prisoner, who gave his name as Muhammad Sohail, is a 17-year-old from the Pakistani port city of Karachi who is being held by the Afghan authorities in Kabul. In an interview in late July, in front of several prison guards, he said Pakistan was allowing militant groups to train and organize insurgents to fight in Afghanistan. Sohail said he hoped that granting the interview would increase his chances of being freed.
.
Sohail described his recruitment through his local mosque in Pakistan - by a group listed by the United States as having terrorist links - his military training in a camp not far from the capital, Islamabad, and his being dispatched, with several other Pakistanis, to Afghanistan.
.
He did not give all the details that intelligence officials said they had gleaned from him in interrogations, but he talked easily about his party and its leaders and said they had high-level support from within the establishment.
.
He said he had been recruited and trained within the past eight months by Jamiat-ul-Ansar, the new name for the Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen party, which was designated a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department and banned by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan in January 2002. Under its new name it is functioning, if more discreetly, and its leader, Fazlur Rehman Khalil, moves around freely.
.
Khalil has been involved in recruiting and training militants since the 1980s. In 1998, U.S. planes bombed his training camp in Afghanistan when they were targeting Osama bin Laden after the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The bombing killed a number of Pakistanis, and Khalil at the time vowed to take revenge against America for the attack.
.
Sohail is not the first Pakistani to be captured fighting alongside the Taliban and other militants in Afghanistan over the past two years. On at least one occasion, Pakistanis who were captured in a joint U.S.-$ Afghan military operation last year were handed back to Pakistan. But he is the first to be made available for an interview by the Afghan government. Intelligence officials said they had found on him a Jamiat-ul-Ansar membership card and a list of phone numbers of high-level party officials.
.
A Pakistani official interviewed recently described Sohail as a singular case and denied that Pakistani militants were showing up in Afghanistan.
.
The Pakistani ambassador to Afghanistan, Rustam Shah Mohmand, said he thought Jamiat-ul-Ansar and its network had been dismantled. "There is no ambiguity in our policy," he said. "The government does not sponsor, nor create, nor is aware of training camps. If they were aware of any, they would go and dismantle them."
.
Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, has stated publicly that Pakistan has not done nearly enough to stop the Taliban and other militants from using Pakistan's border areas as operational and recruiting bases. In a speech in Washington in April, he warned that, if Pakistan did not do the job on its side of the border, U.S. forces would have to do the job themselves. A Western diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity in an interview last month in Kabul said, "When you talk about Taliban, it's like fish in a barrel in Pakistan. They train, they rest there. They get support."
.
Western diplomats in Kabul and Pakistani political analysts have said that Pakistan has continued to allow the Taliban to operate to retain influence in Afghanistan. Pakistan supported the Taliban in the 1990s as a way to create an area where Pakistani forces could retreat to the west if war erupted with the country's longtime rival and neighbor to the east, India. Pakistan has also long tried to maintain influence over Afghanistan's largest ethnic group, the Pashtuns, because of its wariness of its own Pashtun minority in the border areas.
.
Sohail was probably chosen to fight in Afghanistan because he is a Pashtun, the dominant group in the Taliban. Born in Swat, near the Afghan border, he grew up in Karachi, left school at 15 and went to work in a confectionery shop.
.
"I was going to the mosque every Thursday, and they were saying you should go and do jihad," he said. "In Palestine, Chechnya, Cuba, France and a lot of places all over the world, they are mistreating Muslims. So I decided to do it and got training for one month."
.
He traveled with a group of 15 others from his mosque to a training camp near Mansehra, north of Islamabad. It was a remote place, in the mountains with lots of trees, he said. He received explosives and weapons training for one month there, he said.
.
After their training in Mansehra, Sohail and his group went to Islamabad and met Khalil, the leader of Jamiat-ul-Ansar, at his headquarters. Three months later, Khalil went to speak at their mosque and called the group up to fight, Sohail said. "He said, 'Go and fight the Americans.'"
.
They went to the Pakistani border town of Quetta, and then Sohail set off with four other fighters. They crossed the main border and drove to the city of Kandahar. They went to a designated hotel and, in a room, found a bag with weapons. The next day they headed to a mountain base near the town of Panjwai, not far west of Kandahar, where they joined about 50 fighters and rapidly became involved in combat operations themselves.
.
Sohail's account becomes vague after that. He said he fought for only one night and returned to Pakistan. Sent back into Afghanistan to gather information about casualties, he approached some Afghan police, thinking they were Taliban. They arrested him.
.
He is accused of taking part in an attack on the Panjwai District center in April, in which a police officer and two aid workers were killed, security officials said.
.
Sohail has received a 20-year sentence from a judge in Kabul. His appeal is in progress."I'm very sad," he said mournfully. "The jihad is over for me."
.
But he showed flashes of fanaticism, too. "I wish I was a prisoner of the Americans. Then I could die a martyr at their hands, or kill myself," he said.
.
KABUL For months Afghan and U.S. officials have complained that, even while Pakistan cooperates in the fight against Al Qaeda, militant Islamic groups there are training fighters and sending them into Afghanistan to attack U.S. and Afghan forces.
.
Pakistani officials have rejected the allegations, saying they are unaware of any such training camps. Now the Afghan government has produced a young Pakistani, captured while fighting with the Taliban in southern Afghanistan three months ago, whose story would seem to back its complaints about Pakistan.
.
The prisoner, who gave his name as Muhammad Sohail, is a 17-year-old from the Pakistani port city of Karachi who is being held by the Afghan authorities in Kabul. In an interview in late July, in front of several prison guards, he said Pakistan was allowing militant groups to train and organize insurgents to fight in Afghanistan. Sohail said he hoped that granting the interview would increase his chances of being freed.
.
Sohail described his recruitment through his local mosque in Pakistan - by a group listed by the United States as having terrorist links - his military training in a camp not far from the capital, Islamabad, and his being dispatched, with several other Pakistanis, to Afghanistan.
.
He did not give all the details that intelligence officials said they had gleaned from him in interrogations, but he talked easily about his party and its leaders and said they had high-level support from within the establishment.
.
He said he had been recruited and trained within the past eight months by Jamiat-ul-Ansar, the new name for the Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen party, which was designated a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department and banned by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan in January 2002. Under its new name it is functioning, if more discreetly, and its leader, Fazlur Rehman Khalil, moves around freely.
.
Khalil has been involved in recruiting and training militants since the 1980s. In 1998, U.S. planes bombed his training camp in Afghanistan when they were targeting Osama bin Laden after the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The bombing killed a number of Pakistanis, and Khalil at the time vowed to take revenge against America for the attack.
.
Sohail is not the first Pakistani to be captured fighting alongside the Taliban and other militants in Afghanistan over the past two years. On at least one occasion, Pakistanis who were captured in a joint U.S.-$ Afghan military operation last year were handed back to Pakistan. But he is the first to be made available for an interview by the Afghan government. Intelligence officials said they had found on him a Jamiat-ul-Ansar membership card and a list of phone numbers of high-level party officials.
.
A Pakistani official interviewed recently described Sohail as a singular case and denied that Pakistani militants were showing up in Afghanistan.
.
The Pakistani ambassador to Afghanistan, Rustam Shah Mohmand, said he thought Jamiat-ul-Ansar and its network had been dismantled. "There is no ambiguity in our policy," he said. "The government does not sponsor, nor create, nor is aware of training camps. If they were aware of any, they would go and dismantle them."
.
Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, has stated publicly that Pakistan has not done nearly enough to stop the Taliban and other militants from using Pakistan's border areas as operational and recruiting bases. In a speech in Washington in April, he warned that, if Pakistan did not do the job on its side of the border, U.S. forces would have to do the job themselves. A Western diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity in an interview last month in Kabul said, "When you talk about Taliban, it's like fish in a barrel in Pakistan. They train, they rest there. They get support."
.
Western diplomats in Kabul and Pakistani political analysts have said that Pakistan has continued to allow the Taliban to operate to retain influence in Afghanistan. Pakistan supported the Taliban in the 1990s as a way to create an area where Pakistani forces could retreat to the west if war erupted with the country's longtime rival and neighbor to the east, India. Pakistan has also long tried to maintain influence over Afghanistan's largest ethnic group, the Pashtuns, because of its wariness of its own Pashtun minority in the border areas.
.
Sohail was probably chosen to fight in Afghanistan because he is a Pashtun, the dominant group in the Taliban. Born in Swat, near the Afghan border, he grew up in Karachi, left school at 15 and went to work in a confectionery shop.
.
"I was going to the mosque every Thursday, and they were saying you should go and do jihad," he said. "In Palestine, Chechnya, Cuba, France and a lot of places all over the world, they are mistreating Muslims. So I decided to do it and got training for one month."
.
He traveled with a group of 15 others from his mosque to a training camp near Mansehra, north of Islamabad. It was a remote place, in the mountains with lots of trees, he said. He received explosives and weapons training for one month there, he said.
.
After their training in Mansehra, Sohail and his group went to Islamabad and met Khalil, the leader of Jamiat-ul-Ansar, at his headquarters. Three months later, Khalil went to speak at their mosque and called the group up to fight, Sohail said. "He said, 'Go and fight the Americans.'"
.
They went to the Pakistani border town of Quetta, and then Sohail set off with four other fighters. They crossed the main border and drove to the city of Kandahar. They went to a designated hotel and, in a room, found a bag with weapons. The next day they headed to a mountain base near the town of Panjwai, not far west of Kandahar, where they joined about 50 fighters and rapidly became involved in combat operations themselves.
.
Sohail's account becomes vague after that. He said he fought for only one night and returned to Pakistan. Sent back into Afghanistan to gather information about casualties, he approached some Afghan police, thinking they were Taliban. They arrested him.
.
He is accused of taking part in an attack on the Panjwai District center in April, in which a police officer and two aid workers were killed, security officials said.
.
Sohail has received a 20-year sentence from a judge in Kabul. His appeal is in progress."I'm very sad," he said mournfully. "The jihad is over for me."
.
But he showed flashes of fanaticism, too. "I wish I was a prisoner of the Americans. Then I could die a martyr at their hands, or kill myself," he said.
.
KABUL For months Afghan and U.S. officials have complained that, even while Pakistan cooperates in the fight against Al Qaeda, militant Islamic groups there are training fighters and sending them into Afghanistan to attack U.S. and Afghan forces.
.
Pakistani officials have rejected the allegations, saying they are unaware of any such training camps. Now the Afghan government has produced a young Pakistani, captured while fighting with the Taliban in southern Afghanistan three months ago, whose story would seem to back its complaints about Pakistan.
.
The prisoner, who gave his name as Muhammad Sohail, is a 17-year-old from the Pakistani port city of Karachi who is being held by the Afghan authorities in Kabul. In an interview in late July, in front of several prison guards, he said Pakistan was allowing militant groups to train and organize insurgents to fight in Afghanistan. Sohail said he hoped that granting the interview would increase his chances of being freed.
.
Sohail described his recruitment through his local mosque in Pakistan - by a group listed by the United States as having terrorist links - his military training in a camp not far from the capital, Islamabad, and his being dispatched, with several other Pakistanis, to Afghanistan.
.
He did not give all the details that intelligence officials said they had gleaned from him in interrogations, but he talked easily about his party and its leaders and said they had high-level support from within the establishment.
.
He said he had been recruited and trained within the past eight months by Jamiat-ul-Ansar, the new name for the Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen party, which was designated a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department and banned by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan in January 2002. Under its new name it is functioning, if more discreetly, and its leader, Fazlur Rehman Khalil, moves around freely.
.
Khalil has been involved in recruiting and training militants since the 1980s. In 1998, U.S. planes bombed his training camp in Afghanistan when they were targeting Osama bin Laden after the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The bombing killed a number of Pakistanis, and Khalil at the time vowed to take revenge against America for the attack.
.
Sohail is not the first Pakistani to be captured fighting alongside the Taliban and other militants in Afghanistan over the past two years. On at least one occasion, Pakistanis who were captured in a joint U.S.-$ Afghan military operation last year were handed back to Pakistan. But he is the first to be made available for an interview by the Afghan government. Intelligence officials said they had found on him a Jamiat-ul-Ansar membership card and a list of phone numbers of high-level party officials.
.
A Pakistani official interviewed recently described Sohail as a singular case and denied that Pakistani militants were showing up in Afghanistan.
.
The Pakistani ambassador to Afghanistan, Rustam Shah Mohmand, said he thought Jamiat-ul-Ansar and its network had been dismantled. "There is no ambiguity in our policy," he said. "The government does not sponsor, nor create, nor is aware of training camps. If they were aware of any, they would go and dismantle them."
.
Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, has stated publicly that Pakistan has not done nearly enough to stop the Taliban and other militants from using Pakistan's border areas as operational and recruiting bases. In a speech in Washington in April, he warned that, if Pakistan did not do the job on its side of the border, U.S. forces would have to do the job themselves. A Western diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity in an interview last month in Kabul said, "When you talk about Taliban, it's like fish in a barrel in Pakistan. They train, they rest there. They get support."
.
Western diplomats in Kabul and Pakistani political analysts have said that Pakistan has continued to allow the Taliban to operate to retain influence in Afghanistan. Pakistan supported the Taliban in the 1990s as a way to create an area where Pakistani forces could retreat to the west if war erupted with the country's longtime rival and neighbor to the east, India. Pakistan has also long tried to maintain influence over Afghanistan's largest ethnic group, the Pashtuns, because of its wariness of its own Pashtun minority in the border areas.
.
Sohail was probably chosen to fight in Afghanistan because he is a Pashtun, the dominant group in the Taliban. Born in Swat, near the Afghan border, he grew up in Karachi, left school at 15 and went to work in a confectionery shop.
.
"I was going to the mosque every Thursday, and they were saying you should go and do jihad," he said. "In Palestine, Chechnya, Cuba, France and a lot of places all over the world, they are mistreating Muslims. So I decided to do it and got training for one month."
.
He traveled with a group of 15 others from his mosque to a training camp near Mansehra, north of Islamabad. It was a remote place, in the mountains with lots of trees, he said. He received explosives and weapons training for one month there, he said.
.
After their training in Mansehra, Sohail and his group went to Islamabad and met Khalil, the leader of Jamiat-ul-Ansar, at his headquarters. Three months later, Khalil went to speak at their mosque and called the group up to fight, Sohail said. "He said, 'Go and fight the Americans.'"
.
They went to the Pakistani border town of Quetta, and then Sohail set off with four other fighters. They crossed the main border and drove to the city of Kandahar. They went to a designated hotel and, in a room, found a bag with weapons. The next day they headed to a mountain base near the town of Panjwai, not far west of Kandahar, where they joined about 50 fighters and rapidly became involved in combat operations themselves.
.
Sohail's account becomes vague after that. He said he fought for only one night and returned to Pakistan. Sent back into Afghanistan to gather information about casualties, he approached some Afghan police, thinking they were Taliban. They arrested him.
.
He is accused of taking part in an attack on the Panjwai District center in April, in which a police officer and two aid workers were killed, security officials said.
.
Sohail has received a 20-year sentence from a judge in Kabul. His appeal is in progress."I'm very sad," he said mournfully. "The jihad is over for me."
.
But he showed flashes of fanaticism, too. "I wish I was a prisoner of the Americans. Then I could die a martyr at their hands, or kill myself," he said.


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KABUL For months Afghan and U.S. officials have complained that, even while Pakistan cooperates in the fight against Al Qaeda, militant Islamic groups there are training fighters and sending them into Afghanistan to attack U.S. and Afghan forces.
.
Pakistani officials have rejected the allegations, saying they are unaware of any such training camps. Now the Afghan government has produced a young Pakistani, captured while fighting with the Taliban in southern Afghanistan three months ago, whose story would seem to back its complaints about Pakistan.
.
The prisoner, who gave his name as Muhammad Sohail, is a 17-year-old from the Pakistani port city of Karachi who is being held by the Afghan authorities in Kabul. In an interview in late July, in front of several prison guards, he said Pakistan was allowing militant groups to train and organize insurgents to fight in Afghanistan. Sohail said he hoped that granting the interview would increase his chances of being freed.
.
Sohail described his recruitment through his local mosque in Pakistan - by a group listed by the United States as having terrorist links - his military training in a camp not far from the capital, Islamabad, and his being dispatched, with several other Pakistanis, to Afghanistan.
.
He did not give all the details that intelligence officials said they had gleaned from him in interrogations, but he talked easily about his party and its leaders and said they had high-level support from within the establishment.
.
He said he had been recruited and trained within the past eight months by Jamiat-ul-Ansar, the new name for the Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen party, which was designated a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department and banned by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan in January 2002. Under its new name it is functioning, if more discreetly, and its leader, Fazlur Rehman Khalil, moves around freely.
.
Khalil has been involved in recruiting and training militants since the 1980s. In 1998, U.S. planes bombed his training camp in Afghanistan when they were targeting Osama bin Laden after the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The bombing killed a number of Pakistanis, and Khalil at the time vowed to take revenge against America for the attack.
.
Sohail is not the first Pakistani to be captured fighting alongside the Taliban and other militants in Afghanistan over the past two years. On at least one occasion, Pakistanis who were captured in a joint U.S.-$ Afghan military operation last year were handed back to Pakistan. But he is the first to be made available for an interview by the Afghan government. Intelligence officials said they had found on him a Jamiat-ul-Ansar membership card and a list of phone numbers of high-level party officials.
.
A Pakistani official interviewed recently described Sohail as a singular case and denied that Pakistani militants were showing up in Afghanistan.
.
The Pakistani ambassador to Afghanistan, Rustam Shah Mohmand, said he thought Jamiat-ul-Ansar and its network had been dismantled. "There is no ambiguity in our policy," he said. "The government does not sponsor, nor create, nor is aware of training camps. If they were aware of any, they would go and dismantle them."
.
Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, has stated publicly that Pakistan has not done nearly enough to stop the Taliban and other militants from using Pakistan's border areas as operational and recruiting bases. In a speech in Washington in April, he warned that, if Pakistan did not do the job on its side of the border, U.S. forces would have to do the job themselves. A Western diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity in an interview last month in Kabul said, "When you talk about Taliban, it's like fish in a barrel in Pakistan. They train, they rest there. They get support."
.
Western diplomats in Kabul and Pakistani political analysts have said that Pakistan has continued to allow the Taliban to operate to retain influence in Afghanistan. Pakistan supported the Taliban in the 1990s as a way to create an area where Pakistani forces could retreat to the west if war erupted with the country's longtime rival and neighbor to the east, India. Pakistan has also long tried to maintain influence over Afghanistan's largest ethnic group, the Pashtuns, because of its wariness of its own Pashtun minority in the border areas.
.
Sohail was probably chosen to fight in Afghanistan because he is a Pashtun, the dominant group in the Taliban. Born in Swat, near the Afghan border, he grew up in Karachi, left school at 15 and went to work in a confectionery shop.
.
"I was going to the mosque every Thursday, and they were saying you should go and do jihad," he said. "In Palestine, Chechnya, Cuba, France and a lot of places all over the world, they are mistreating Muslims. So I decided to do it and got training for one month."
.
He traveled with a group of 15 others from his mosque to a training camp near Mansehra, north of Islamabad. It was a remote place, in the mountains with lots of trees, he said. He received explosives and weapons training for one month there, he said.
.
After their training in Mansehra, Sohail and his group went to Islamabad and met Khalil, the leader of Jamiat-ul-Ansar, at his headquarters. Three months later, Khalil went to speak at their mosque and called the group up to fight, Sohail said. "He said, 'Go and fight the Americans.'"
.
They went to the Pakistani border town of Quetta, and then Sohail set off with four other fighters. They crossed the main border and drove to the city of Kandahar. They went to a designated hotel and, in a room, found a bag with weapons. The next day they headed to a mountain base near the town of Panjwai, not far west of Kandahar, where they joined about 50 fighters and rapidly became involved in combat operations themselves.
.
Sohail's account becomes vague after that. He said he fought for only one night and returned to Pakistan. Sent back into Afghanistan to gather information about casualties, he approached some Afghan police, thinking they were Taliban. They arrested him.
.
He is accused of taking part in an attack on the Panjwai District center in April, in which a police officer and two aid workers were killed, security officials said.
.
Sohail has received a 20-year sentence from a judge in Kabul. His appeal is in progress."I'm very sad," he said mournfully. "The jihad is over for me."
.
But he showed flashes of fanaticism, too. "I wish I was a prisoner of the Americans. Then I could die a martyr at their hands, or kill myself," he said.
.
KABUL For months Afghan and U.S. officials have complained that, even while Pakistan cooperates in the fight against Al Qaeda, militant Islamic groups there are training fighters and sending them into Afghanistan to attack U.S. and Afghan forces.
.
Pakistani officials have rejected the allegations, saying they are unaware of any such training camps. Now the Afghan government has produced a young Pakistani, captured while fighting with the Taliban in southern Afghanistan three months ago, whose story would seem to back its complaints about Pakistan.
.
The prisoner, who gave his name as Muhammad Sohail, is a 17-year-old from the Pakistani port city of Karachi who is being held by the Afghan authorities in Kabul. In an interview in late July, in front of several prison guards, he said Pakistan was allowing militant groups to train and organize insurgents to fight in Afghanistan. Sohail said he hoped that granting the interview would increase his chances of being freed.
.
Sohail described his recruitment through his local mosque in Pakistan - by a group listed by the United States as having terrorist links - his military training in a camp not far from the capital, Islamabad, and his being dispatched, with several other Pakistanis, to Afghanistan.
.
He did not give all the details that intelligence officials said they had gleaned from him in interrogations, but he talked easily about his party and its leaders and said they had high-level support from within the establishment.
.
He said he had been recruited and trained within the past eight months by Jamiat-ul-Ansar, the new name for the Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen party, which was designated a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department and banned by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan in January 2002. Under its new name it is functioning, if more discreetly, and its leader, Fazlur Rehman Khalil, moves around freely.
.
Khalil has been involved in recruiting and training militants since the 1980s. In 1998, U.S. planes bombed his training camp in Afghanistan when they were targeting Osama bin Laden after the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The bombing killed a number of Pakistanis, and Khalil at the time vowed to take revenge against America for the attack.
.
Sohail is not the first Pakistani to be captured fighting alongside the Taliban and other militants in Afghanistan over the past two years. On at least one occasion, Pakistanis who were captured in a joint U.S.-$ Afghan military operation last year were handed back to Pakistan. But he is the first to be made available for an interview by the Afghan government. Intelligence officials said they had found on him a Jamiat-ul-Ansar membership card and a list of phone numbers of high-level party officials.
.
A Pakistani official interviewed recently described Sohail as a singular case and denied that Pakistani militants were showing up in Afghanistan.
.
The Pakistani ambassador to Afghanistan, Rustam Shah Mohmand, said he thought Jamiat-ul-Ansar and its network had been dismantled. "There is no ambiguity in our policy," he said. "The government does not sponsor, nor create, nor is aware of training camps. If they were aware of any, they would go and dismantle them."
.
Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, has stated publicly that Pakistan has not done nearly enough to stop the Taliban and other militants from using Pakistan's border areas as operational and recruiting bases. In a speech in Washington in April, he warned that, if Pakistan did not do the job on its side of the border, U.S. forces would have to do the job themselves. A Western diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity in an interview last month in Kabul said, "When you talk about Taliban, it's like fish in a barrel in Pakistan. They train, they rest there. They get support."
.
Western diplomats in Kabul and Pakistani political analysts have said that Pakistan has continued to allow the Taliban to operate to retain influence in Afghanistan. Pakistan supported the Taliban in the 1990s as a way to create an area where Pakistani forces could retreat to the west if war erupted with the country's longtime rival and neighbor to the east, India. Pakistan has also long tried to maintain influence over Afghanistan's largest ethnic group, the Pashtuns, because of its wariness of its own Pashtun minority in the border areas.
.
Sohail was probably chosen to fight in Afghanistan because he is a Pashtun, the dominant group in the Taliban. Born in Swat, near the Afghan border, he grew up in Karachi, left school at 15 and went to work in a confectionery shop.
.
"I was going to the mosque every Thursday, and they were saying you should go and do jihad," he said. "In Palestine, Chechnya, Cuba, France and a lot of places all over the world, they are mistreating Muslims. So I decided to do it and got training for one month."
.
He traveled with a group of 15 others from his mosque to a training camp near Mansehra, north of Islamabad. It was a remote place, in the mountains with lots of trees, he said. He received explosives and weapons training for one month there, he said.
.
After their training in Mansehra, Sohail and his group went to Islamabad and met Khalil, the leader of Jamiat-ul-Ansar, at his headquarters. Three months later, Khalil went to speak at their mosque and called the group up to fight, Sohail said. "He said, 'Go and fight the Americans.'"
.
They went to the Pakistani border town of Quetta, and then Sohail set off with four other fighters. They crossed the main border and drove to the city of Kandahar. They went to a designated hotel and, in a room, found a bag with weapons. The next day they headed to a mountain base near the town of Panjwai, not far west of Kandahar, where they joined about 50 fighters and rapidly became involved in combat operations themselves.
.
Sohail's account becomes vague after that. He said he fought for only one night and returned to Pakistan. Sent back into Afghanistan to gather information about casualties, he approached some Afghan police, thinking they were Taliban. They arrested him.
.
He is accused of taking part in an attack on the Panjwai District center in April, in which a police officer and two aid workers were killed, security officials said.
.
Sohail has received a 20-year sentence from a judge in Kabul. His appeal is in progress."I'm very sad," he said mournfully. "The jihad is over for me."
.
But he showed flashes of fanaticism, too. "I wish I was a prisoner of the Americans. Then I could die a martyr at their hands, or kill myself," he said.
.
KABUL For months Afghan and U.S. officials have complained that, even while Pakistan cooperates in the fight against Al Qaeda, militant Islamic groups there are training fighters and sending them into Afghanistan to attack U.S. and Afghan forces.
.
Pakistani officials have rejected the allegations, saying they are unaware of any such training camps. Now the Afghan government has produced a young Pakistani, captured while fighting with the Taliban in southern Afghanistan three months ago, whose story would seem to back its complaints about Pakistan.
.
The prisoner, who gave his name as Muhammad Sohail, is a 17-year-old from the Pakistani port city of Karachi who is being held by the Afghan authorities in Kabul. In an interview in late July, in front of several prison guards, he said Pakistan was allowing militant groups to train and organize insurgents to fight in Afghanistan. Sohail said he hoped that granting the interview would increase his chances of being freed.
.
Sohail described his recruitment through his local mosque in Pakistan - by a group listed by the United States as having terrorist links - his military training in a camp not far from the capital, Islamabad, and his being dispatched, with several other Pakistanis, to Afghanistan.
.
He did not give all the details that intelligence officials said they had gleaned from him in interrogations, but he talked easily about his party and its leaders and said they had high-level support from within the establishment.
.
He said he had been recruited and trained within the past eight months by Jamiat-ul-Ansar, the new name for the Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen party, which was designated a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department and banned by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan in January 2002. Under its new name it is functioning, if more discreetly, and its leader, Fazlur Rehman Khalil, moves around freely.
.
Khalil has been involved in recruiting and training militants since the 1980s. In 1998, U.S. planes bombed his training camp in Afghanistan when they were targeting Osama bin Laden after the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The bombing killed a number of Pakistanis, and Khalil at the time vowed to take revenge against America for the attack.
.
Sohail is not the first Pakistani to be captured fighting alongside the Taliban and other militants in Afghanistan over the past two years. On at least one occasion, Pakistanis who were captured in a joint U.S.-$ Afghan military operation last year were handed back to Pakistan. But he is the first to be made available for an interview by the Afghan government. Intelligence officials said they had found on him a Jamiat-ul-Ansar membership card and a list of phone numbers of high-level party officials.
.
A Pakistani official interviewed recently described Sohail as a singular case and denied that Pakistani militants were showing up in Afghanistan.
.
The Pakistani ambassador to Afghanistan, Rustam Shah Mohmand, said he thought Jamiat-ul-Ansar and its network had been dismantled. "There is no ambiguity in our policy," he said. "The government does not sponsor, nor create, nor is aware of training camps. If they were aware of any, they would go and dismantle them."
.
Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, has stated publicly that Pakistan has not done nearly enough to stop the Taliban and other militants from using Pakistan's border areas as operational and recruiting bases. In a speech in Washington in April, he warned that, if Pakistan did not do the job on its side of the border, U.S. forces would have to do the job themselves. A Western diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity in an interview last month in Kabul said, "When you talk about Taliban, it's like fish in a barrel in Pakistan. They train, they rest there. They get support."
.
Western diplomats in Kabul and Pakistani political analysts have said that Pakistan has continued to allow the Taliban to operate to retain influence in Afghanistan. Pakistan supported the Taliban in the 1990s as a way to create an area where Pakistani forces could retreat to the west if war erupted with the country's longtime rival and neighbor to the east, India. Pakistan has also long tried to maintain influence over Afghanistan's largest ethnic group, the Pashtuns, because of its wariness of its own Pashtun minority in the border areas.
.
Sohail was probably chosen to fight in Afghanistan because he is a Pashtun, the dominant group in the Taliban. Born in Swat, near the Afghan border, he grew up in Karachi, left school at 15 and went to work in a confectionery shop.
.
"I was going to the mosque every Thursday, and they were saying you should go and do jihad," he said. "In Palestine, Chechnya, Cuba, France and a lot of places all over the world, they are mistreating Muslims. So I decided to do it and got training for one month."
.
He traveled with a group of 15 others from his mosque to a training camp near



See more of the world that matters - click here for home delivery of the International Herald Tribune.
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KABUL For months Afghan and U.S. officials have complained that, even while Pakistan cooperates in the fight against Al Qaeda, militant Islamic groups there are training fighters and sending them into Afghanistan to attack U.S. and Afghan forces.
.
Pakistani officials have rejected the allegations, saying they are unaware of any such training camps. Now the Afghan government has produced a young Pakistani, captured while fighting with the Taliban in southern Afghanistan three months ago, whose story would seem to back its complaints about Pakistan.
.
The prisoner, who gave his name as Muhammad Sohail, is a 17-year-old from the Pakistani port city of Karachi who is being held by the Afghan authorities in Kabul. In an interview in late July, in front of several prison guards, he said Pakistan was allowing militant groups to train and organize insurgents to fight in Afghanistan. Sohail said he hoped that granting the interview would increase his chances of being freed.
.
Sohail described his recruitment through his local mosque in Pakistan - by a group listed by the United States as having terrorist links - his military training in a camp not far from the capital, Islamabad, and his being dispatched, with several other Pakistanis, to Afghanistan.
.
He did not give all the details that intelligence officials said they had gleaned from him in interrogations, but he talked easily about his party and its leaders and said they had high-level support from within the establishment.
.
He said he had been recruited and trained within the past eight months by Jamiat-ul-Ansar, the new name for the Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen party, which was designated a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department and banned by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan in January 2002. Under its new name it is functioning, if more discreetly, and its leader, Fazlur Rehman Khalil, moves around freely.
.
Khalil has been involved in recruiting and training militants since the 1980s. In 1998, U.S. planes bombed his training camp in Afghanistan when they were targeting Osama bin Laden after the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The bombing killed a number of Pakistanis, and Khalil at the time vowed to take revenge against America for the attack.
.
Sohail is not the first Pakistani to be captured fighting alongside the Taliban and other militants in Afghanistan over the past two years. On at least one occasion, Pakistanis who were captured in a joint U.S.-$ Afghan military operation last year were handed back to Pakistan. But he is the first to be made available for an interview by the Afghan government. Intelligence officials said they had found on him a Jamiat-ul-Ansar membership card and a list of phone numbers of high-level party officials.
.
A Pakistani official interviewed recently described Sohail as a singular case and denied that Pakistani militants were showing up in Afghanistan.
.
The Pakistani ambassador to Afghanistan, Rustam Shah Mohmand, said he thought Jamiat-ul-Ansar and its network had been dismantled. "There is no ambiguity in our policy," he said. "The government does not sponsor, nor create, nor is aware of training camps. If they were aware of any, they would go and dismantle them."
.
Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, has stated publicly that Pakistan has not done nearly enough to stop the Taliban and other militants from using Pakistan's border areas as operational and recruiting bases. In a speech in Washington in April, he warned that, if Pakistan did not do the job on its side of the border, U.S. forces would have to do the job themselves. A Western diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity in an interview last month in Kabul said, "When you talk about Taliban, it's like fish in a barrel in Pakistan. They train, they rest there. They get support."
.
Western diplomats in Kabul and Pakistani political analysts have said that Pakistan has continued to allow the Taliban to operate to retain influence in Afghanistan. Pakistan supported the Taliban in the 1990s as a way to create an area where Pakistani forces could retreat to the west if war erupted with the country's longtime rival and neighbor to the east, India. Pakistan has also long tried to maintain influence over Afghanistan's largest ethnic group, the Pashtuns, because of its wariness of its own Pashtun minority in the border areas.
.
Sohail was probably chosen to fight in Afghanistan because he is a Pashtun, the dominant group in the Taliban. Born in Swat, near the Afghan border, he grew up in Karachi, left school at 15 and went to work in a confectionery shop.
.
"I was going to the mosque every Thursday, and they were saying you should go and do jihad," he said. "In Palestine, Chechnya, Cuba, France and a lot of places all over the world, they are mistreating Muslims. So I decided to do it and got training for one month."
.
He traveled with a group of 15 others from his mosque to a training camp near Mansehra, north of Islamabad. It was a remote place, in the mountains with lots of trees, he said. He received explosives and weapons training for one month there, he said.
.
After their training in Mansehra, Sohail and his group went to Islamabad and met Khalil, the leader of Jamiat-ul-Ansar, at his headquarters. Three months later, Khalil went to speak at their mosque and called the group up to fight, Sohail said. "He said, 'Go and fight the Americans.'"
.
They went to the Pakistani border town of Quetta, and then Sohail set off with four other fighters. They crossed the main border and drove to the city of Kandahar. They went to a designated hotel and, in a room, found a bag with weapons. The next day they headed to a mountain base near the town of Panjwai, not far west of Kandahar, where they joined about 50 fighters and rapidly became involved in combat operations themselves.
.
Sohail's account becomes vague after that. He said he fought for only one night and returned to Pakistan. Sent back into Afghanistan to gather information about casualties, he approached some Afghan police, thinking they were Taliban. They arrested him.
.
He is accused of taking part in an attack on the Panjwai District center in April, in which a police officer and two aid workers were killed, security officials said.
.
Sohail has received a 20-year sentence from a judge in Kabul. His appeal is in progress."I'm very sad," he said mournfully. "The jihad is over for me."
.
But he showed flashes of fanaticism, too. "I wish I was a prisoner of the Americans. Then I could die a martyr at their hands, or kill myself," he said.
.
KABUL For months Afghan and U.S. officials have complained that, even while Pakistan cooperates in the fight against Al Qaeda, militant Islamic groups there are training fighters and sending them into Afghanistan to attack U.S. and Afghan forces.
.
Pakistani officials have rejected the allegations, saying they are unaware of any such training camps. Now the Afghan government has produced a young Pakistani, captured while fighting with the Taliban in southern Afghanistan three months ago, whose story would seem to back its complaints about Pakistan.
.
The prisoner, who gave his name as Muhammad Sohail, is a 17-year-old from the Pakistani port city of Karachi who is being held by the Afghan authorities in Kabul. In an interview in late July, in front of several prison guards, he said Pakistan was allowing militant groups to train and organize insurgents to fight in Afghanistan. Sohail said he hoped that granting the interview would increase his chances of being freed.
.
Sohail described his recruitment through his local mosque in Pakistan - by a group listed by the United States as having terrorist links - his military training in a camp not far from the capital, Islamabad, and his being dispatched, with several other Pakistanis, to Afghanistan.
.
He did not give all the details that intelligence officials said they had gleaned from him in interrogations, but he talked easily about his party and its leaders and said they had high-level support from within the establishment.
.
He said he had been recruited and trained within the past eight months by Jamiat-ul-Ansar, the new name for the Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen party, which was designated a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department and banned by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan in January 2002. Under its new name it is functioning, if more discreetly, and its leader, Fazlur Rehman Khalil, moves around freely.
.
Khalil has been involved in recruiting and training militants since the 1980s. In 1998, U.S. planes bombed his training camp in Afghanistan when they were targeting Osama bin Laden after the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The bombing killed a number of Pakistanis, and Khalil at the time vowed to take revenge against America for the attack.
.
Sohail is not the first Pakistani to be captured fighting alongside the Taliban and other militants in Afghanistan over the past two years. On at least one occasion, Pakistanis who were captured in a joint U.S.-$ Afghan military operation last year were handed back to Pakistan. But he is the first to be made available for an interview by the Afghan government. Intelligence officials said they had found on him a Jamiat-ul-Ansar membership card and a list of phone numbers of high-level party officials.
.
A Pakistani official interviewed recently described Sohail as a singular case and denied that Pakistani militants were showing up in Afghanistan.
.
The Pakistani ambassador to Afghanistan, Rustam Shah Mohmand, said he thought Jamiat-ul-Ansar and its network had been dismantled. "There is no ambiguity in our policy," he said. "The government does not sponsor, nor create, nor is aware of training camps. If they were aware of any, they would go and dismantle them."
.
Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, has stated publicly that Pakistan has not done nearly enough to stop the Taliban and other militants from using Pakistan's border areas as operational and recruiting bases. In a speech in Washington in April, he warned that, if Pakistan did not do the job on its side of the border, U.S. forces would have to do the job themselves. A Western diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity in an interview last month in Kabul said, "When you talk about Taliban, it's like fish in a barrel in Pakistan. They train, they rest there. They get support."
.
Western diplomats in Kabul and Pakistani political analysts have said that Pakistan has continued to allow the Taliban to operate to retain influence in Afghanistan. Pakistan supported the Taliban in the 1990s as a way to create an area where Pakistani forces could retreat to the west if war erupted with the country's longtime rival and neighbor to the east, India. Pakistan has also long tried to maintain influence over Afghanistan's largest ethnic group, the Pashtuns, because of its wariness of its own Pashtun minority in the border areas.
.
Sohail was probably chosen to fight in Afghanistan because he is a Pashtun, the dominant group in the Taliban. Born in Swat, near the Afghan border, he grew up in Karachi, left school at 15 and went to work in a confectionery shop.
.
"I was going to the mosque every Thursday, and they were saying you should go and do jihad," he said. "In Palestine, Chechnya, Cuba, France and a lot of places all over the world, they are mistreating Muslims. So I decided to do it and got training for one month."
.
He traveled with a group of 15 others from his mosque to a training camp near Mansehra, north of Islamabad. It was a remote place, in the mountains with lots of trees, he said. He received explosives and weapons training for one month there, he said.
.
After their training in Mansehra, Sohail and his group went to Islamabad and met Khalil, the leader of Jamiat-ul-Ansar, at his headquarters. Three months later, Khalil went to speak at their mosque and called the group up to fight, Sohail said. "He said, 'Go and fight the Americans.'"
.
They went to the Pakistani border town of Quetta, and then Sohail set off with four other fighters. They crossed the main border and drove to the city of Kandahar. They went to a designated hotel and, in a room, found a bag with weapons. The next day they headed to a mountain base near the town of Panjwai, not far west of Kandahar, where they joined about 50 fighters and rapidly became involved in combat operations themselves.
.
Sohail's account becomes vague after that. He said he fought for only one night and returned to Pakistan. Sent back into Afghanistan to gather information about casualties, he approached some Afghan police, thinking they were Taliban. They arrested him.
.
He is accused of taking part in an attack on the Panjwai District center in April, in which a police officer and two aid workers were killed, security officials said.
.
Sohail has received a 20-year sentence from a judge in Kabul. His appeal is in progress."I'm very sad," he said mournfully. "The jihad is over for me."
.
But he showed flashes of fanaticism, too. "I wish I was a prisoner of the Americans. Then I could die a martyr at their hands, or kill myself," he said.
.
KABUL For months Afghan and U.S. officials have complained that, even while Pakistan cooperates in the fight against Al Qaeda, militant Islamic groups there are training fighters and sending them into Afghanistan to attack U.S. and Afghan forces.
.
Pakistani officials have rejected the allegations, saying they are unaware of any such training camps. Now the Afghan government has produced a young Pakistani, captured while fighting with the Taliban in southern Afghanistan three months ago, whose story would seem to back its complaints about Pakistan.
.
The prisoner, who gave his name as Muhammad Sohail, is a 17-year-old from the Pakistani port city of Karachi who is being held by the Afghan authorities in Kabul. In an interview in late July, in front of several prison guards, he said Pakistan was allowing militant groups to train and organize insurgents to fight in Afghanistan. Sohail said he hoped that granting the interview would increase his chances of being freed.
.
Sohail described his recruitment through his local mosque in Pakistan - by a group listed by the United States as having terrorist links - his military training in a camp not far from the capital, Islamabad, and his being dispatched, with several other Pakistanis, to Afghanistan.
.
He did not give all the details that intelligence officials said they had gleaned from him in interrogations, but he talked easily about his party and its leaders and said they had high-level support from within the establishment.
.
He said he had been recruited and trained within the past eight months by Jamiat-ul-Ansar, the new name for the Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen party, which was designated a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department and banned by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan in January 2002. Under its new name it is functioning, if more discreetly, and its leader, Fazlur Rehman Khalil, moves around freely.
.
Khalil has been involved in recruiting and training militants since the 1980s. In 1998, U.S. planes bombed his training camp in Afghanistan when they were targeting Osama bin Laden after the bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. The bombing killed a number of Pakistanis, and Khalil at the time vowed to take revenge against America for the attack.
.
Sohail is not the first Pakistani to be captured fighting alongside the Taliban and other militants in Afghanistan over the past two years. On at least one occasion, Pakistanis who were captured in a joint U.S.-$ Afghan military operation last year were handed back to Pakistan. But he is the first to be made available for an interview by the Afghan government. Intelligence officials said they had found on him a Jamiat-ul-Ansar membership card and a list of phone numbers of high-level party officials.
.
A Pakistani official interviewed recently described Sohail as a singular case and denied that Pakistani militants were showing up in Afghanistan.
.
The Pakistani ambassador to Afghanistan, Rustam Shah Mohmand, said he thought Jamiat-ul-Ansar and its network had been dismantled. "There is no ambiguity in our policy," he said. "The government does not sponsor, nor create, nor is aware of training camps. If they were aware of any, they would go and dismantle them."
.
Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, has stated publicly that Pakistan has not done nearly enough to stop the Taliban and other militants from using Pakistan's border areas as operational and recruiting bases. In a speech in Washington in April, he warned that, if Pakistan did not do the job on its side of the border, U.S. forces would have to do the job themselves. A Western diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity in an interview last month in Kabul said, "When you talk about Taliban, it's like fish in a barrel in Pakistan. They train, they rest there. They get support."
.
Western diplomats in Kabul and Pakistani political analysts have said that Pakistan has continued to allow the Taliban to operate to retain influence in Afghanistan. Pakistan supported the Taliban in the 1990s as a way to create an area where Pakistani forces could retreat to the west if war erupted with the country's longtime rival and neighbor to the east, India. Pakistan has also long tried to maintain influence over Afghanistan's largest ethnic group, the Pashtuns, because of its wariness of its own Pashtun minority in the border areas.
.
Sohail was probably chosen to fight in Afghanistan because he is a Pashtun, the dominant group in the Taliban. Born in Swat, near the Afghan border, he grew up in Karachi, left school at 15 and went to work in a confectionery shop.
.
"I was going to the mosque every Thursday, and they were saying you should go and do jihad," he said. "In Palestine, Chechnya, Cuba, France and a lot of places all over the world, they are mistreating Muslims. So I decided to do it and got training for one month."
.
He traveled with a group of 15 others from his mosque to a training camp near Mansehra, north of Islamabad. It was a remote place, in the mountains with lots of trees, he said. He received explosives and weapons training for one month there, he said.
.
After their training in Mansehra, Sohail and his group went to Islamabad and met Khalil, the leader of Jamiat-ul-Ansar, at his headquarters. Three months later, Khalil went to speak at their mosque and called the group up to fight, Sohail said. "He said, 'Go and fight the Americans.'"
.
They went to the Pakistani border town of Quetta, and then Sohail set off with four other fighters. They crossed the main border and drove to the city of Kandahar. They went to a designated hotel and, in a room, found a bag with weapons. The next day they headed to a mountain base near the town of Panjwai, not far west of Kandahar, where they joined about 50 fighters and rapidly became involved in combat operations themselves.
.
Sohail's account becomes vague after that. He said he fought for only one night and returned to Pakistan. Sent back into Afghanistan to gather information about casualties, he approached some Afghan police, thinking they were Taliban. They arrested him.
.
He is accused of taking part in an attack on the Panjwai District center in April, in which a police officer and two aid workers were killed, security officials said.
.
Sohail has received a 20-year sentence from a judge in Kabul. His appeal is in progress."I'm very sad," he said mournfully. "The jihad is over for me."
.
But he showed flashes of fanaticism, too. "I wish I was a prisoner of the Americans. Then I could die a martyr at their hands, or kill myself," he said.


.



!

Ray
11 Aug 04,, 14:01
Hi Vision,

.
Aryan and me are Kashmiris ... and I dion't think you get more aryan than that in our subcontinent.

as far as the pukhtoon thingy; may I suggest that a Bengali like you, please do not try to speak on their behalf ...

Besides the population of Pukhtoons in Pak and in our army and in our institutions are far far more than those on the other side of the border ... and the all claim to belong to Pakistan ... lets not fool ourselves ..

I missed this snipe from you. Now that I have seen it, a few words of enlightenment for you. I might add it is straining my civility intensely.

1. Being Kashmiris is not as if you are God's Chosen People. Unfortuantely, India is of Aryan culture and hence there is no credence of your singling out the Kashmiris. The way you are at it ll the time, it seems as unique as being a Monkey's Uncle! ;) I am sure that there would other interesting point about being a Kashmiri that are actually singular!
BTW Aryan is a Balti and not a Kashmiri. Same issue and reason that you are trying to state to Afghan that all Afghanis are not Pastuns.

2. What's wrong in a Bengali on Pakhtoon and Afghanistan issues? If we were to confine ourselves to our states and be so insular, I don't think anyone of us should be around this forum. In fact, none would then be able to comment on the Iraq thread either or any other too. You sure would be a Total NO NO on the Arms threads!

3. I wouldn't know about the cohesiveness of Pakistan but if one goes by Afghan, it is rather frayed at the seams or so it appears.

In so far as Pakhtoons are concerned, I find it rather fascinating that they prefer India. Karzai, Abdulla Abdulla all visited India FIRST after the govt formed! Apart from preferring to be educated in India.

Aryan
11 Aug 04,, 14:47
B shit! Pashton soilder refuse to fight their fellow Pashton.
I happen to bring facts while you talk typical **** hot-air! :biggrin:

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1108831/posts
"The way in which Pashtun tribals dealt with hostages is also a reflection of this split. The tribals that held Pashtun paramilitary force members hostage are said to have treated them with respect, later releasing them after a deal with Pakistani authorities. However, the soldiers that were of Punjab descent were killed and their bodies mutilated."
This really shows the royality of Pashton to Panjabi and Pakistan!

What hot air was I talking about? Most of the people killed were FC corps. There is no denying that. Supporting the mutilation of innocent regular soldiers will mean you won't be around here for long. People discussing warfare here are civilised, we condemn such barbaric behaviour.


A million Pashton been killed? o boy were you hear this from some **** publication? :biggrin: The number of civilian Afghan killed during Bombing of US is estimated to be around 3-4 thousands! Which is indeed a cheap prize for Afghans to pay to get ride of filthy **** "Islam"!

I used the term in its general usage, to imply a large indefinite amount.


B shit agian, even today **** army is unable to leave their camps! Mind you that People of area not the Taliban or Arabs have raised aganist the *****! Which again proves one thing----Pashtons aversion of Pakistan!

What camps? Just because your al-Jazeera doesn’t report it, doesn’t mean its false.




Only 30 to 40 % of Afghan "refugees" live in camp, these camps were establish to be a recruiting ground for CIA for their fight against soviets!

Not necessarily, a large amount of the refugees fled the Taliban to come to Pakistan.


While the rest live in cities, villages and towns as a ordinary Pashtons!

Absolutely not, the local population hate your opium smoking ways. I don't blame them. Pashto refugees are like animals, I've never encountered a species of humanity that actually feeds their children drugs.


Also you need to realize that not all people of Pashtonistan are Pashtons, there are minority like Hinko, Berawis Panjabis and… these people see Afghans as further marginizing them and making them more minority since Afghans will add to percentage of Pashtons in Pashonistan and make Pashtons an absolute majority!

LOL, so how can you say NWFP will become part of Afghanistan? There are plenty of minorites there to stop it. Why do you think the Pashto elements in Pakistan can't even manage to rename NWFP? Its because there are enough minorities living there to prevent it from happening.


We are talking about Afghan(Pashton) majoirty not some wana be Pashton who claim to be Pashton but could not speak a word of Pashto and have noting as Pashton in him. Want me to give you examples?

Please do. And for everyone you can find, I'll give you two who express their loyalty to Pakistan. Isolated cases don't make I'd show you more if I cared.


Who give a rat about Kashmirs? Kashmirs has always been part of India, no matter if it was ruled by Muslim, Hindu or British! On other hand never before British take over Pashtonistan was part of India! It is an historical fact! Kashmirs culture is Indian, language is part of Indo-Aryan and race is Indian. While Pashton culture, and language is Indo-Iranian and race is Irano-Afghan

India is a British term before 1947, but Afghanistan has been been ruled by the Mughal empire, and then our racial brethren the Sikhs for over 300 years. No Afghan has set foot in Pakistan except as a refugee for hundreds of years! Including that President of yours!



A lame try differentiate between Afghans(Pashtons)! Funny indeed! Mind you that the extremist you are talking about has its roots in Pakistan, the Madrass, the Dewbandi and Wahabi sh*Ts----all Talibans were product of **** madrass not the other way around!!

The madrassas were in Pakistan, but the students in the ones responsible for the Taliban were Afghan refugees.

I


Do you think we Afghans are that inferior to accept being part of a cultureless, corrupt, filthy with no identity country like Pakistan and allow an Indian in shape of Besharaaf to rule us? :biggrin:

We have a far greater and stronger identity that you lowly Afghans. Name one achievement you can be proud of, except murder, genocide of minorities, rugs and opium. Pakistan has an advanced copper age civilization, the Indus valley civilization.


Before trying to becoming civilized i suggest you ***** become a human first!
Since you’ve been here, you’ve supported the use of opium against countries as a form of warfare, and supported the mutilation of soldiers. I wouldn’t call that human behaviour.


also you are misestimating the royalty of non-pashtons people of Afghanistan to Afghanistan--------not having any separatist movement after twenty six years of war really shows how royal and connected these people are to their country--Afghanistan

Don’t talk rubbish, the ethnic conflict going on in Afghanistan is a well documented fact. All minorities in Afghanistan HATE the wahabbi Pashto. Hazaras because they are shia and hate your extremist form of islam, and the others for your genocide. If you want, look at the forum at www.afghan-web.com If you support the splitting of Pathans in Pakistan, then we can certainly support the splitting of Hazara, Tajiks, Baloch and other minority groups in Afghanistan. The only reason we are not seeing the creation of strong separatist groups in Afghanistan is for the lack of democracy there. As soon as the tribal war is over and people settle down, Afghanistan will be cut up.


Wait and see, just wait and see the real show have not yet started, mind you when Afghanistan army were marching on sub-continent your forefathers were wearing those diapers------by he way why in this wild world you all wear Afghan(Pashtons) cloth?I swear the reason I do not wear my own Piran Tonban is all brown ****, and camel arabs now a days wear my traditional cloths.

You talking about the rags you wear on your head? I know you people are slaves of the arabs, but do you have to imitate them in dress as well?


Also ally of America and west? With ally like Pakistan who needs an enemy? Sooner or later America and the west will see the real face of you, mind you the reason why America is allying with Pakistan is caz there is no alternative, Iran is ruled by Mullahs and central Asia by those ex-commies. Indeed do you think America will this easily let go of your nuclear weapon profiling? Selling to Libya, Iran and north Korea and blaming it all in a stupid corrupt scientist Dr Qadir Khan?

America are allies of Pakistan because we both have a common enemy - wahabbi islam. Even India are putting their differences aside and joining hands with Pakistan because of this struggle, we are prepared to overlook Kashmir. Iran too hates you too, once the Mullah have gone they will be another ally in the war against Islamism.


Indeed once we have a strong government in Afghanistan, what will prevent us from attacking Pakistan----we don’t even need to do that, all we need is to encourage Baloch, Pashton and Sindis, and on other hand allow India to take care of Panjab. Indeed sooner you guys won’t be able to keep with much larger and much mightier India and since other then religion you ***** (with exception of Pashton and Balouchs) have everything in common with Indians we will see a reunification of Panjab and Sind with India and Pashtonistan and Balochistan with Afghanistan .

India won't fight us unless we want war. India have been concentrating on developing their economy for the past decade, not building an empire. Something Pakistan has decided to do as well under Musharraf.


We and Indians will live side by side in peace as a neighbor like historically used too. We Pashtons never had any beef with Hindus and we do not hate them like ***** does, Indian is a traditional ally of Afghanistan.

Pakistan doesn't have beef with Hindus, we were once vedic Aryans. We have Hindus living Pakistan today. Indo-Pakistan war isn't a religious war, its a war between two countries.



Note: If you are still not satisfied with facts above which sooner or later will be implemented------ then be all means bring it on, you and wossy Iranians both at the same time, I will make sure to wait for ***** cowards with my AK 47! It will indeed be the happiest day of my life to see cowards brown ***** finally grown a dick and doing their fight themselves!

We Kashmiris don't need to make empty threats like you beggar Pashtos do, and neither do we need to carry AK-47s to make up for what is lacking in the phallic department. Ask Ray, a brigadier in the Indian army who was posted in Kashmir, how Kashmiris are.

Think of it this way, you wahabbi pushtoos love the death and dying in battle (shaheed). When we Baltis fight, we want YOU to die that much...martyrdom gets in the way of killing more of your people.


Baloch and Pashtons belong to same race----irano-Afghan--- Mediterranean!
Iranians are also irano-Afghan, so what?

More then 45% of population of Balochistan are Pashtons, even the city Quatta was given to Balochs as a dowry for a Balochi princesses who married an Afghan princes in 17 century!

First of all you should realize that NWFP, and Balochistan are their country! Legally, morally, historically and culturally!

I don't care or no about the history, but most of the pathan of balochistan are actually illegal Afghan immigrants. The local Baloch population despise them, and

Balouchistan has NOTHING to do with Afghanistan. Balochis in Quetta hate you ragheads, I personally know Balochis who would testify. Here is a map of what Baloch nationalists would like, http://www.balochunity.org/index.php?map

As you can see they ahve included areas of Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan into it.



Second you know I never seen a “malnourished” Afghan in my whole life, not even after all this hardship we Afghans have been throw! I saw the footage of Afghan and Afghanistan after 9/11 being broadcast here in States twenty four seven but never I seen a malnourished child or adult! All seemed tall, fair skinned, and surprisingly happy even in miseries!

I typed in Afghan and malnourished into google and this is what came up. Coalition medical team assists Afghan citizens
New centre for malnourished Afghan children
Over 50% of Afghan children are malnourished, here are some pictures in case you have never seen them before.
http://www.japantoday.com/dbfiles/news/rnp_asia-70189-1_picture-54140.3EB0.jpg
http://www.september11-tribute.org/images/Gallery24/011004_refugee_05.jpg
I curse you for making me do that.


I have already proven to you without any reasonable doubt that Afghan and Pashtons means the same people.
And here iam restating the proof!

They are just random links, the definitions are quoted out of usage and you are just playing along with them to suit your agenda. Afghan is the term used to call citizens of Afghanistan, and I've proved it using CIA.gov. Anything else you say to dispute it is denial.



Funny that is a brown sack of sh*T **** who has No identity, lack culture and history and other then religion have no reason to be a country talking about civilization. Indeed Pakistani and civilization do not go together---an oxymoron term! Plus look who is talling aobut literacy----punk Pakistan and Afghanistan even after twenty five years of fighting in Afghaistan have the same percentage of literacy rate!
Afghanistan
Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
female: 21% (1999 est.)
total population: 36%
male: 51%
Pakistan

Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 45.7%
male: 59.8%
female: 30.6% (2003 est.)

I wouldn't call that the same, Pakistan's is almost 10% higher.
Pakistan's literacy is pathetic, but its a byproduct of the Zia era Islamisation period. We are only now working to rid ourselves of this virus. Pakistani government are doing all they can now to boast education spending, we've made primary school education free for all, something that hadn't been done before. Adult literacy projects are being set up in Pakistani cities and rural areas as well.


Don’t see much deference, and mind you the reason Pakistan literacy is 45 percent is because of the money and Afghans teachers that purred in Pakistan as refugee.
FATA and NWFP have some of the lowest literacy rates in Pakistan, female literacy in FATA is 3%. Developed regions such as Punjab, Kashmir or Sindh (Karachi in particular) is much higher.


There was even an article which stated that Afghan refugees give cultureless ***** culture.

Please post it. The only thing Afghans have given Pakistan is rugs and the AK culture. You can keep it.


Also Soviet had no plan to attack Afghanistan the only reason they did was to reach the warm waters of Indian ocean---Pakistan so be thankful for two million brave Afghans getting killed to prevent Soviets to enter your country.

Brave? You uncivilised Afghans are used to throwing spears at each other, what do you know about modern warfare? You be thankful only 2 million of your people were killed, if it wasn't for the assistance CIA and ISI gave, you would be a Russian.


Since you ***** are known cowards, got your ass wiped three times by a much smaller country India(comparing to Soviet) it doesn’t a rocket scientist to predict what will happen when soviet invaded Pakistan. Also thanks Soviet invasion for your country pocketing billions of dollars in aid giving to Afghan refugee, billions of dollars worth in weapon and other assistance which you guys received in the name of Afghanistan.

AFghans didn't beat the Soviets, they massacred you. 2 million Afghans killed and only 15,000 Russians. They shot your people like wahabbi dogs. They only left because there was nothing in Afghanistan they wanted, and they knew if they invaded Pakistan it would incite a very strong American response.



dewabandi which has its base in Pakistan, since Pakistan has no other identity other then religion!

Deobandi actually has its base in India.



America has an Afghan-American as ambassador in Afghanistan, have military presence in Afghanistan and help us go after **** rats in shape of Talibans so I really like the good Americans are doing and I wish them all the best! Iam also thankful of Mr Bush, for he has been a stronge supporter of Afghan and Afghanistan and will vote for him in coming election since he deserves to win!

Thats good you support Bush, so do I. Your vote will give Pakistan the aid it needs to shoot your wahabbi dogs down like the vermin they are.



First of all it is Pashtons not Pashto, you can also use Afghan since it means the same thing. Pashto is our language! Second he was known as king of Pashtonkhawa and had extrodnarlly high support in Pashonistan but sadly his enemy was in shape of British and their agent Ali Jenah, an alcoholic punk trick him to boycott the election which had only two choice---Pakistan or India! And the rest is history!

Jinnah drank alcohol, ate pig but was a good man. You see in Pakistan morality isn't defined by adherance to the arabs, we are capable of tolerance and peace.


You see the problem is that you guys lack culture, history and identity that is the reason you guys support terrosim in region!

We have a rich culture, we have a rich identity and a rich history. We are an advanced, civilised race. We have created the largest city in ancient times, what have you AFghans done?


Half of you talk English with tick accent that is and pretend to be British---while your brown skin really give you out

Afghans are browner than me. As for accents, half the stinking Afghan immigrants I see make me want to throw up. I'd vote for any party prepared to deport them back to AFghanistan, you have your own country now, why don't you go back?


, other half pretend to be Arab and talk about Islam while you guys are the most an-islamic and unethical people in face of planet. Like this American write one wrote “A Pakistani will sell his mother for you for 20 dollars.”

Well the same could be said about your holy islamic pashtoon warriors. Americans didn't fight you with weapons you were bought by the highest bidder.


Your country is second most curropt nation in face of planet and your people have no ethics and morality.

Pakistan isn't the second most corrupt nation in the world.

visioninthedark
11 Aug 04,, 16:48
you really take us for fools ...

a Pukhtoon calling Kashmiris "brown" ...

yeah ... in that case ... Germans are even "browner" ...

Khocha ... alone?? don't you feel lonely in your paranoid self-created fantasy ...


ohh yeah ... and the pics you posted ...


I could do just the same ... only I'd label then as Pukhtoon ....


if you are a man ... why don't you post YOUR OWN PIC and me an ARYAN WILL POST OURS and we'll see who is "browner" ... !!

Ray
11 Aug 04,, 19:10
Kashmiris are German?

That's really rich!

This is turning out to be Humour thread.

Who said that Germans are the original Aryans? Hitler? I don't give a tinker's damn for him.

He had the audacity to use the swastika which is a Hindu symbol.

Do read the links I gave about Aryans and Kashmiri language.

Please, even if you are a Pakistani and a Kashmiri, I feel rather odd that non subcontinental blokes are laughing up their sleeves at the inane arguments and how some subcontinental entities are going overboard to be Germans or whiter than the 'whites' and other childish hallucinations.
yet, they kowtow to the camel lovers. Read their holy books in the camel language and yet understand damn all.

OK, Kashmiris are whiter and purer than the snow of Mount Etna. Or even better. They are paler than GHOSTs.

Happy?

Ray
11 Aug 04,, 19:32
Nah. The pics Afghan posted are those of the Sudanese. ;)

Ray
11 Aug 04,, 19:46
Does anyone here care?
I don't think so.

On.y Aryan and Vision care. Hitler left them behind when he killed himself. They are re-writing history.

After all, Vision claimed German descent in a roundabout way.

It is unfortunate that they feel being 'white' is some sort of a brownie point.

The sad part is that the genuine 'whites' don't feel so.

We must go to the UN for this gross discrimination. Better still, lets wage a war on the infidel whites who don't accept the purity of colour and descent! ;) :):):):)

Ray
11 Aug 04,, 20:10
For 'camel' read 'camel lovers'

I didn't say it. You guys did in describing those loveable Arabs who have the holiest of the shrines of Islam.

I really don't understand as to why professing iconaclast pretensions should have a premabulation around a stone edifice at Kabba to achieve salvation!

We don't go to the Vatican to permambulate or visit shrines that are important to our denominations.

In fact, we are searching.


Read The 'Da Vinci code'. It is blasphemous. Sadly, there is no fatwa in Christianity! That book has confused me.

JanKhandeAfghan
12 Aug 04,, 21:45
Here do youself a favor go to google.com and type Kashmiris

Let me do you a favor

here is the result of Kashmir photo search in Google.com

http://images.google.com/images?q=photo+Kashmiris&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi&sourceid=tipimg

http://www.kashmirretextured.com/kashmiris/women/b153.jpg


Now also type Afghan---Pashton---Pathan and see it youself---other then Indianized Pashtons---whom been living in India and whom have been mixed with Indic people---------all Pashtons are CAUCASOID while Kashmirs and ***** are Indic! Pashtons belong to Mediterranean race while Kashmirs are Dravidian!


http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/subraces.html


"Irano-Afghan: The long-faced, high-headed, hook-nosed type, usually of tall stature, which forms the principal element in the population of Iran, Afghanistan, and the Turkoman country, and which is also present in Palestine, parts of Arabia, and North Africa. It is probably related to the old Corded type of the Neolithic and Bronze Age."


God dam brown ****! :biggrin:


you really take us for fools ...

a Pukhtoon calling Kashmiris "brown" ...

yeah ... in that case ... Germans are even "browner" ...

Khocha ... alone?? don't you feel lonely in your paranoid self-created fantasy ...


ohh yeah ... and the pics you posted ...


I could do just the same ... only I'd label then as Pukhtoon ....


if you are a man ... why don't you post YOUR OWN PIC and me an ARYAN WILL POST OURS and we'll see who is "browner" ... !!

Jay
12 Aug 04,, 21:56
Ray Sahab, Its indeed getting humorus :biggrin: People fighting to be called as Whites!! :confused:

JanKhandeAfghan
12 Aug 04,, 22:56
Na no body here fight to be "white" at lest not me! All I am saying is that we Pasthons look, walk and talk diff then *****! It is a simple fact! We have different culture, different language, different history, different identity and different race! It is sad that because of our religion we are being chained together with people that we have noting in common with---*****! Not even our value and morality is the same! Just take a look at the Taliban, good for bad, these Son of B stick with camel Arabs although they new they will be bombed and destroyed----but they didn’t sell their believes----although it was f-ed up and BS! On other hand take a look at ***** government, they were the one who created terrorist, they were the one who brought Ossma to Afghanistan, but for money they did a 180 degree turn! This speaks a volume about **** value and standard----like one America journalist once wrote “A **** will sell his mom and sis for 20 dollars.”
All in all, as a pure Pashtons and one who is from so called NWFP I want the world know that we Pashtons despise **** and Pakistan and we have noting in common with these scam bags! Personal rather be part of India then Pakistan!





Ray Sahab, Its indeed getting humorus :biggrin: People fighting to be called as Whites!! :confused:

Aryan
12 Aug 04,, 23:28
here is the result of Kashmir photo search in Google.com

LOL so thats what all Kashmiris look like? You are a jackass. :biggrin:


So what are you waiting for, post a picture of yourself and we'll see who is brown or not.

Here are the Kalash of Kashmir, pretty close to where I'm from:

http://www.world2c.demon.nl/himpics/imagesamples/paki0003.jpg

Come on, lets see what your skinny refugee ass looks like.


Now also type Afghan---Pashton---Pathan and see it youself---other then Indianized Pashtons---whom been living in India and whom have been mixed with Indic people---------all Pashtons are CAUCASOID while Kashmirs and ***** are Indic! Pashtons belong to Mediterranean race while Kashmirs are Dravidian!

Indianised Pashtons? See, thats just your word for any Pashto with dark skin. So what are you going to do with them? Deport them to India? :biggrin:


"Irano-Afghan: The long-faced, high-headed, hook-nosed type, usually of tall stature, which forms the principal element in the population of Iran, Afghanistan, and the Turkoman country, and which is also present in Palestine, parts of Arabia, and North Africa. It is probably related to the old Corded type of the Neolithic and Bronze Age."

I know that paragraph so well, I could tell you teh book it has been directly paraphrased from, it is one of Coon's.


God dam brown ****! :biggrin:

My offer is still there, post a picture of youself and I'll do the same, we'll see who is brown.


Now also type Afghan---Pashton---Pathan and see it youself---other then Indianized Pashtons---whom been living in India and whom have been mixed with Indic people---------all Pashtons are CAUCASOID while Kashmirs and ***** are Indic! Pashtons belong to Mediterranean race while Kashmirs are Dravidian!
You obviously don't know the first thing about anthropology. Causcasoid, is one of the four major races of humanity. Caucasoids form the largest group, followed by Mongoloids and then Negroid. AFghans are Irano-Afghan, Pakistanis are nordindid, both are subraces of the Caucasoid race. If we are talking about being caucasian, Afghans are far less Caucasian than Nordindids. We have been able to largely keep our race and background pure, where as Afghans have been raped by Mongoloid type races (Turkic, Huns, Chinese, and Mongols under Ghengis) for centuries. Thats why the epicanthal fold is a common feature in Afghanistan.
http://www.whtt.org/catalog/images/Afhanistan-Refugee%20carries%20another%20refugee%20011225a.jp g
There are hundreds more examples of this.
http://www.centcom.mil/CENTCOMNews/Stories/09_03/14a.jpg

Confed999
13 Aug 04,, 00:26
One of the things I like most about the USA, any of those people could be Americans, and hardly anyone here would look at them twice. :)

JanKhandeAfghan
13 Aug 04,, 00:54
What hot air was I talking about? Most of the people killed were FC corps. There is no denying that. Supporting the mutilation of innocent regular soldiers will mean you won't be around here for long. People discussing warfare here are civilised, we condemn such barbaric behaviour.

Most of people killed were innocent Pashton civilians but those army bastards killed where mostly Panjabis, as the article i posted already showed that Pashtons hostages taken by Waziries were freed and Panjabi and **** hostage killed and their body mutilated


I used the term in its general usage, to imply a large indefinite amount.

Large amount? Comparing to two million that Soviet killed, and more then two hundred thousand that **** terrorist and their train scams in shape of Mujahiden and Taliban killed---3 thousands is noting---special when 3 thousand were not killed in vein----it was a prize to be paid to free holy Afghanistan form filth of **** and their filthy "Islam"---Terrorism!






What camps? Just because your al-Jazeera doesn’t report it, doesn’t mean its false.

You should stop smoking sh*T lol the refugee camps in Pashtonistan and Balochistan were build by CIA to keep Afghan refugees together so and in check, so when they need recruitment for their fight against soviet they know where to go. Mind you that ***** created Madrass---training group for filthy **** "Islam"--dewbandism in these refugee camps. Do you even know that all Taliban---special their leaders were brainwashed in these **** madrass in these camps?





Not necessarily, a large amount of the refugees fled the Taliban to come to Pakistan.

B shit comparing to two million Afghans living in Pashtonistan and Balochistan the refugee filed Taliban amount to noting---although a lot of educated Afghans were forced to leave Afghanistan by **** Taliban!





Absolutely not, the local population hate your opium smoking ways. I don't blame them. Pashto refugees are like animals, I've never encountered a species of humanity that actually feeds their children drugs.


Filthy ****, no Pashton ever feed his children drug---those are Turk Afghan----Turkman and Uzbaks! And the reason is economic hardship. For a change visit your own country Pakistan---people sell their children.



LOL, so how can you say NWFP will become part of Afghanistan? There are plenty of minorites there to stop it. Why do you think the Pashto elements in Pakistan can't even manage to rename NWFP? Its because there are enough minorities living there to prevent it from happening.


Don't think these "minorities" will have any choose, where the Pasthons in Pashtonistan had a choose when the British invaded and cut it from Afghanistan? Where the Pashtons had a saying when the British give them only two option of either Pakistan or India? Mind you that rights are taken by force and is not given to people. We Pashtons will take our rights to join about mother land---Afghanistan either by force or by peace! When operation clean up Pashtonistan starts we will make sure to build a few concentration camps for traitor pashtons and these monitories-----in these camps we will play the ugly anthem of Pakistan---Pak sarzamn Chataal Baad----only to prevent Pashtons mercy on these scams!



Please do. And for everyone you can find, I'll give you two who express their loyalty to Pakistan. Isolated cases don't make I'd show you more if I cared.

Isolated cases? bewaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaa as i have said if you are confidence when why trying to brainwash our innocent village people into Taliban and terrostim, why imposing Madrass and other dogmatic ideologies on our innocent village people in the name of religion? Why don't allow a poll and let people decide what they want.
Let me tell you something----blood is ticker then water----get this in your dirty **** head! The only people that support pakistan are those who claim to be Pashtons but don't even speak a word of Pashto! Like Omran Khan, Babur, and other ta bandi ma bandi SOBs that claim to be Pashtons----only since Pashtons are proud people and all the id-less sobs try to be Pasthons!
You know comparing to these SOBs, Raj Kapoor an Hindu who's father was from Peshaware is more Pashtons!





India is a British term before 1947, but Afghanistan has been been ruled by the Mughal empire, and then our racial brethren the Sikhs for over 300 years. No Afghan has set foot in Pakistan except as a refugee for hundreds of years! Including that President of yours!

Bonehead where you read history in **** Madrassas? :biggrin: Who were Mughals ha? Babur was king of Kabul before he become king of India, he got India from Ibram Lodia an Afghan king of India! You know when i think about it , actual having a cancer in shape of Pakistan as a neighbor is a punishment from God----since it was us who made you guys Muslims----Sultan M Ghaznavid, Gories, Lodies, Suries, Abdalis, Mughals and..... the reason why you guys converted to Islam was force and also since you guys were from lowest Hindus caste---Ajwats and saw Islam as a way to turn against your master Hundu Briahman and Kashtria!
I pray for god to forgive the crimes of our forefather against India and finally destroy this cancer Pakistan for once and for all!






The madrassas were in Pakistan, but the students in the ones responsible for the Taliban were Afghan refugees.

Off course shit head! THe Madrass where created by **** gov, the Mullah were give instruction how to brainwash Afghan refugees! It is a open secret!




We have a far greater and stronger identity that you lowly Afghans. Name one achievement you can be proud of, except murder, genocide of minorities, rugs and opium. Pakistan has an advanced copper age civilization, the Indus valley civilization.


bawahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ahahahahha a brown sack of shit, with less then 55 years of history have stronger identity then a 5000 years old country like Afghanistan? bewaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ahaha the **** Madrass really turns you guys in to monkeys! Do you even know that the language you sh*T head speak Urdu was created by Afghan king Sultan Mahmod Ghanvaid? Four “provinces” of Pakistan is like four cat tight in tail! You guys lack culture, identity and history! Other then religion base and hatred against India you country have no reason to exists!



Since you’ve been here, you’ve supported the use of opium against countries as a form of warfare, and supported the mutilation of soldiers. I wouldn’t call that human behaviour.

Personally i do not see any difference between drugs, no matter if it is Alcohol, tobacco or and Opium. There is no good drug since one brings profit to certain group and bad drug since it doesn't! The day alcohol and tobacco factories are banned in other countries i will preach to Afghan farmers to stop cultivating opium! Also you need to realize that if a person is stupid enough to smoke cigarette, drink alcohol and eat opium then no one can do anything for him/her! People have a right of to make a choice, just like the right to have a gun, the right to drink alcohol, the right to smoke tobacco.



Don’t talk rubbish, the ethnic conflict going on in Afghanistan is a well documented fact. All minorities in Afghanistan HATE the wahabbi Pashto. Hazaras because they are shia and hate your extremist form of islam, and the others for your genocide. If you want, look at the forum at www.afghan-web.com If you support the splitting of Pathans in Pakistan, then we can certainly support the splitting of Hazara, Tajiks, Baloch and other minority groups in Afghanistan. The only reason we are not seeing the creation of strong separatist groups in Afghanistan is for the lack of democracy there. As soon as the tribal war is over and people settle down, Afghanistan will be cut up.

Democracy coming out of a ****? bawaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaa ahahah
now this is really funny! You see the war i Afghanistan is actual impose war---imposed by ***** in shape of Muhadeen and Taliban, impose by Soviets in shape of Communist and... the connection between people of Afghanistan is much stronger, keeping in mind that all ethic of Afghanistan share history, culture and religion with each other. No matter what all Afghans regardless of their ethic call themselves Afghan----this shows the national identity of Afghans! While in Pakistan, and Iran it is completely deferent, I have seen Pashtons holding **** passport but when you call them ***** they get offended, I have seen Sindis who do not even hang with **** student in colleges. I have seen Balochs who call themselves Afghan or Iranian while holding **** passport!





You talking about the rags you wear on your head? I know you people are slaves of the arabs, but do you have to imitate them in dress as well?

Yea that is called Turban---it a culture thing you as **** will not understand it. Arabs do not war Turban it is a Pashton culture, Arabs have their own dress, ***** traditional dress is those diaper. You know today even brown ***** and Kashmirs wear Pashtons cloths----- Pathani Shirwar Kameez! Which makes me sick, here in US whenever I see a brown **** wear that it makes me furious!





America are allies of Pakistan because we both have a common enemy - wahabbi islam. Even India are putting their differences aside and joining hands with Pakistan because of this struggle, we are prepared to overlook Kashmir. Iran too hates you too, once the Mullah have gone they will be another ally in the war against Islamism.

Wrong, Pakistan is a Wahabi and Dewbandi State, here check this article!

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FH12Df03.html

Pakistan was forced to ditch the terroist she created!


India won't fight us unless we want war. India have been concentrating on developing their economy for the past decade, not building an empire. Something Pakistan has decided to do as well under Musharraf.
Pakistan is a corrupt and almost bankrupt country, if it was not caz of 9/11, which US pardoning billions of dollars of Pakistanis debt, Pakistan would have been bankrupt long ago. Even today Pakistan has more then 35 Billions dollars in debt! The country is control by a dictator general, is nest of terrorist and fanatics, all the terrorist that has been capture so far been from Pakistan and thee is a deep rooted ethnic war----balochistan as an example! India on other hand is another story, regardless of religion people of India proud claim themselves to be Indian! The rickets Indian is a Muslim guy---which shows that there is No discrimination! From top 50 companies in the world, 35 have their office and invited in India---while non are in Pakistan! Indians general speak are rational and peaceful people but sooner or later Indians must realize that with cancer like Pakistan they must become violent or this cancer will take the whole region down with itself!






Pakistan doesn't have beef with Hindus, we were once vedic Aryans. We have Hindus living Pakistan today. Indo-Pakistan war isn't a religious war, its a war between two countries.

During partation more then 37% of Pakistanis were Hindu and today Hindus make less then 1 percent, this speak voluem about fanatic *****, while in india during partation muslims were 7% but today were more then 15%!
As I have said, the only reason for Pakistan to be a country was religion! You need to study your history and see that if it was no Hindu--muslims BS the whole area of today's Pakistan would have bee India!


We Kashmiris don't need to make empty threats like you beggar Pashtos do, and neither do we need to carry AK-47s to make up for what is lacking in the phallic department. Ask Ray, a brigadier in the Indian army who was posted in Kashmir, how Kashmiris are.

Let me tell you a secret, personal i have a strong connection with Kashmir, my late great great grand father Sardar Fazil ahmed Khan was governor of Kashmirs when Kashmirs was a province of Afgahnistan. Thus I wish Kashmirs the best and i know that majority of Kashmirs want to have their own country and do not like India or Pakistan---- but when ever i talk to Kashmirs now a day, i realize that Kashmirs are very much Indic people and thus i have no objection for Kashmir being part of India!



Think of it this way, you wahabbi pushtoos love the death and dying in battle (shaheed). When we Baltis fight, we want YOU to die that much...martyrdom gets in the way of killing more of your people
As i have proven with out a reasonable doubt that those village people were actual brainwashed by **** Islam and are not representative of Pashton, rather they are representative of **** and their lack of identity!



Iranians are also irano-Afghan, so what?
Iranians? only Farsi ethnic of Iran is Irano-Afghan, the rest is either Arab, or Turk!




I don't care or no about the history, but most of the pathan of balochistan are actually illegal Afghan immigrants. The local Baloch population despise them, and

Balouchistan has NOTHING to do with Afghanistan. Balochis in Quetta hate you ragheads, I personally know Balochis who would testify. Here is a map of what Baloch nationalists would like, http://www.balochunity.org/index.php?map

As you can see they ahve included areas of Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistan into it.

Off course, since you as a **** lack history! Balochistan was taken away from Afghanistan in 1889 by British under the treaty of Gandomak! Suggest you read History! As i have stated before even the Quetta city was given to Balochis by Afghans for dowry of a Baloch princesses who married an Afghan princess.(You see in our culture, Baloch, and Pashton the groom pays dowry to bride not the other way around like your culture-----another proof that how different Pashton and Baloch culture are from *****! )
Nevertheless i DO not mind Balochistan as being in simi-federation with Afghanistan or to have an independent country of their own! Baloch are brave people and are historical and traditional ally of Afghans(Pasthons). If they have a separate country of their own i know that it will be the strongest ally of Afghanistan!




I
typed in Afghan and malnourished into google and this is what came up. Coalition medical team assists Afghan citizens
New centre for malnourished Afghan children
Over 50% of Afghan children are malnourished, here are some pictures in case you have never seen them before.
http://www.japantoday.com/dbfiles/news/rnp_asia-70189-1_picture-54140.
http://www.september11-tribute.org/images/Gallery24/011004_refuge
I curse you for making me do that.

My god curse by upon you filthy **** for faking Sudannes as Afghan! --see Rays post!



They are just random links, the definitions are quoted out of usage and you are just playing along with them to suit your agenda. Afghan is the term used to call citizens of Afghanistan, and I've proved it using CIA.gov. Anything else you say to dispute it is denial.


Nope, it has already prove, just do a search, Afghan means Pashton! Do you even know that in so called NWFP the race of Pashtons is written in their ID-card as Afghan? You filthy ***** trying to differentiate between Afghans of Afghanistan and that of Pashtonistan is really comical! Bonhead it is just 100 years that these Afghans been subjected to live under British and then *****-----this does not change Afghans blood, culture, identity and history!




I wouldn't call that the same, Pakistan's is almost 10% higher.
Pakistan's literacy is pathetic, but its a byproduct of the Zia era Islamisation period. We are only now working to rid ourselves of this virus. Pakistani government are doing all they can now to boast education spending, we've made primary school education free for all, something that hadn't been done before. Adult literacy projects are being set up in Pakistani cities and rural areas as well.

Almost the same, 10% doesn't count, special since Paksitan from her creation 55 years ago been always in peace and there is no impose war like in Afghanistan.
Just wait tell we kick filthy **** terroists out of our country, five more years.

It has been less then 3 years since we with our american ally kick the filthy **** Talibs out of our contry back to their holes in Pakistan and we are already build cars on our own---check this out.

http://smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/08/01/afghancar_gallery__550x376.jpg
Priced to sell ... Afghan President Hamid Karzai shows off the first ever Afghan-made car. The Ahoo, meaning deer, costs 160,000 Afghanis (about $A5000). Photo: AFP

http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/afghanistan/story/2004/08/040802_v-afghancar.shtml


FATA and NWFP have some of the lowest literacy rates in Pakistan, female literacy in FATA is 3%. Developed regions such as Punjab, Kashmir or Sindh (Karachi in particular) is much higher.
FATA is not backward, but is is kept backward by *****, only Madrass are permited! One of my Wealthy freind wanted to open a few schools in FATA five years ago but the **** gov did not allow him to---claiming it is against Islam!


Please post it. The only thing Afghans have given Pakistan is rugs and the AK culture. You can keep it.


You know what Pakistan give Afghanistan? Taliban, Mohadeen, distraction and war. The **** culture(actual lack of it) even turn innocent village Afghans into Taliban monsters! It I will known fact that ***** lack morality!



Brave? You uncivilised Afghans are used to throwing spears at each other, what do you know about modern warfare? You be thankful only 2 million of your people were killed, if it wasn't for the assistance CIA and ISI gave, you would be a Russian.

Filthy Pak talking about civlization? bawaaaaaaaaa i already posted facts about **** civilziation!

there are your islam and civilization!

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiap...kistan.justice/

http://web.amnesty.org/web/wire.nsf/July2004/Pakistan

http://english.pravda.ru/fun/2002/07/02/31654.html

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1835/

http://www.womensenews.org/article....context/archive
http://www.equityfeminism.com/articles/2002/000081.html

For british gang bang you guys for 200 years does not turn you into civlized beings! Most of your people don't even know what is restroom and sh*T in feilds and you talk about civilization?









Deobandi actually has its base in India.


Off course at that time there was no Pakistan, but Pakistan being a home for Indians Muslims--as it claim at the time of partition------and being the only country that permits terrorism---based on dewbandism and wahabsim. You know at the time when your forefathers were wearing dipper Afghanistan allowed Women to vote, even before US in 1919. Dewbandi mullah were not even permitted to the Afghan mosques!

http://afghanland.com/pictures/pict24.jpg
(king amanullah khan and Queen soraya in England)


http://www.institute-for-afghan-studies.org/images/1928_king_amanullah_queen_soraya.jpg


http://www.jawanan1.persianblog.com/




Thats good you support Bush, so do I. Your vote will give Pakistan the aid it needs to shoot your wahabbi dogs down like the vermin they are.

The reason i Support Bush is to kick the filthy Dewbandi and ***** to their crape hole!----which mark my word, when terrorism ends in region that day will be the end of terrorist nation of Pakistan!




Jinnah drank alcohol, ate pig but was a good man. You see in Pakistan morality isn't defined by adherance to the arabs, we are capable of tolerance and peace.
Off course, Jennah wasn’t even a Muslim, he was a Parsi, a true British agent, after world war two when British realize that they can no long subject India, the draw a plan to leave, but were scared of India asking for the billions that British looted----so the put the hindu--Muslim hatred and brought a Parsi named Jenah who was unknown at the time of India's independence movement---unlike Ghandi and Nehro Jennah was never jailed or prosecuted by British!---Divide and rule---------as long as Muslim hate Hindus and Hindus hate Mulsims---indians will never ask for their looted goods. Mind you that reason the Kohi Nohaar diamond which is in position of British was asked by this Indian guy to be return back to India but then Pakistan wanted it for herself claiming it was taken to british form area that is now Pakistan-------The British told ***** and Indians to first solve it between themselves who we should return then we will return----like this all Indian wealth was looted----before British invasion India was called golden bird.



We have a rich culture, we have a rich identity and a rich history. We are an advanced, civilised race. We have created the largest city in ancient times, what have you AFghans done?
Lets see for start Afghan give you guys your national language, you guys even name your rockets after Afghan kings and you ask what we have done? Tell us how old is your history? :biggrin: Civilized race? :eek: every two min one girl gets rape in Pakistan, is this your civlization?




Afghans are browner than me. As for accents, half the stinking Afghan immigrants I see make me want to throw up. I'd vote for any party prepared to deport them back to AFghanistan, you have your own country now, why don't you go back? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Brown ****, you are really funny!



Well the same could be said about your holy islamic pashtoon warriors. Americans didn't fight you with weapons you were bought by the highest bidder.
Fight us? for what? why we fight Americans? For some filth ARAB OR ****? BEWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA




Pakistan isn't the second most corrupt nation in the world.
Yea it is the first and only one! :biggrin:


You see as a **** no one likes you guys, off course Indian hates, you and off course we Afghans hate your stinky brown ass, Irainans also don't have that much love for you guys, and arabs----just there see how they treat u guys there!

Confed999
13 Aug 04,, 01:07
no one likes you guys
I don't have a problem with Pakistanis, and I like most of the ones I've met.

JanKhandeAfghan
13 Aug 04,, 01:21
LOL so thats what all Kashmiris look like? You are a jackass. :biggrin:


So what are you waiting for, post a picture of yourself and we'll see who is brown or not.

Here are the Kalash of Kashmir, pretty close to where I'm from:

http://www.world2c.demon.nl/himpics/imagesamples/paki0003.jpg

Come on, lets see what your skinny refugee ass looks like.
What a brown sack of Sh*T! Kalash is in Chetral---NWFP! Kalash are decendent of Alexander the great. http://www.ishipress.com/macedon.htm

http://www.ishipress.com/afiyat.htm

http://www.babylontravel.net/english/ecology/e-frame_kalash.htm

"In the North Western corner of Pakistan lies the Kalash valleys, home of the non Muslim tribe known as the Kalasha. Their ancestors once ruled nearly to Kabul to the west and to the Lowari pass to the east. Today the 4,000 or so Kalasha are outnumbered in their own valleys by immigrant and converted Muslims. "

I dear you to bring me a single Kashmirs that looks like that!
You brown sack of sh*T






Indianised Pashtons? See, thats just your word for any Pashto with dark skin. So what are you going to do with them? Deport them to India? :biggrin:

Nope they are already in India! ahaha Salman Khan, Amir Khan, Shah Rokh khan, Qadir Khan, Tariq Khan, Sanji Khan and... are all Indicized Pashton and proud Indians! So are Irfan Pathan who plays for India's team! Nevertheless these Pashtons still look Irano-Afghan----Mediterranean!





I know that paragraph so well, I could tell you teh book it has been directly paraphrased from, it is one of Coon's.

So what is the point you are trying to make? ha? Do you agree that we Afghans(Pashton and Balochs) look diff then *****. It is an open secret we are Mediterrrianean and you guys are Indic!










My offer is still there, post a picture of youself and I'll do the same, we'll see who is brown.

I need to upload my pic online first, by the way how i know who you say you really are? Common now you claim Kalash as Kashmirs only to show that Brown Kashmirs are White----who knows you might get a pic of some Afghan and claim it is you. I will never know would i ?




You obviously don't know the first thing about anthropology. Causcasoid, is one of the four major races of humanity. Caucasoids form the largest group, followed by Mongoloids and then Negroid. AFghans are Irano-Afghan, Pakistanis are nordindid, both are subraces of the Caucasoid race. If we are talking about being caucasian, Afghans are far less Caucasian than Nordindids. We have been able to largely keep our race and background pure, where as Afghans have been raped by Mongoloid type races (Turkic, Huns, Chinese, and Mongols under Ghengis) for centuries. Thats why the epicanthal fold is a common feature in Afghanistan.
http://www.whtt.org/catalog/images/Afhanistan-Refugee%20carries%20another%20refugee%20011225a.jp g
There are hundreds more examples of this.
[IMG]http://www.centcom.mMNews/Stories/09_03/14a./IMG]
Afghans are Mediterranean while northindics are browns. Just check the pics, the pic you post are all fall under Irano-Afghan race.
"Irano-Afghan: The long-faced, high-headed, hook-nosed type, usually of tall stature, which forms the principal element in the population of Iran, Afghanistan, and the Turkoman country, and which is also present in Palestine, parts of Arabia, and North Africa. It is probably related to the old Corded type of the Neolithic and Bronze Age."

The only Mongoloid---Turkic people in Afghanistan are Hazaras---Mughals! They make less then 10% of people. On other hand, we see a large mixture of Dravidians in *****, special their brown skin, their tick lips and shape of their head!
As for as ***** being, rape, for over then 1000 years Muslim Afghan been invading India----special these area that is today Pakistan----this explains why some ***** have lighter skins and Mediterrean looks. Even before that the Aryans---Hindus also invaded India from Afghanistan.

Here check this out!

http://www.dalitstan.org/books/bibai/bibai1.html

2) Second Aryan Invasion (1400 BC) :
Bharata launched the second Aryan invasion from Afghanistan, and conquered much of the upper Ganges valley, defeating the descendants of the first wave of invasions under Indra.


2. Second Aryan Invasion

Bharata's Invasion from Afghanistan
Bharata was a descendant of Kashyapa, who is named after the Caspian sea, where the lunar race of Aryans is thought to have originated. Bharata's legendary capital lay in the Kabul valley, ie. the Yusufzai territory of modern Afghanistan:

" According to local tradition, the original seat of the empire of Bharata was much further to the morth-west, namely, at the site now occupied by the ruins of Takh-i-Bahi, in the country of the Yusufzais to the northward of Peshawur."
-- [ Mah.wh.48n.2 ]

From this base he descended onto the plains of India. There he defeated Indra [ Mah.wh.45 ], a descendant of the ancestor-god Indra, earning himself the title "most renowned of the Lunar race" [ Mah.wh.47 ]. He then conquered the Upper Ganges valley, exceeding Indra's dominion.

After the wars of annexation, the Raj of Bharata extended over the enitre doab between the rivers Ganges and the Jumna right up to the junction of these 2 rivers [ Mah.wh.44 ]. These invasions were by lunar Aryans, the solar race of Aryans invading later.

Much Brahminist propaganda has saturated history books with the hypothesis that `Bharatavarsha' denoted the whole of the Indian subcontinent. This is simply not true. `Bharatavarsha' denoted only the empire of Bharata, which was confined to a small part of the Indo-Gangetic valley. This is proven by the Hati-gumpha inscription of Kharavela near Bhubaneswar, which states that Kharavela, King of Kalinga, invaded Bharata.

You see even indians old name Bahrat was from an Afghan king Bahratus!

JanKhandeAfghan
13 Aug 04,, 01:25
I don't have a problem with Pakistanis, and I like most of the ones I've met.
Daaa we are not talking about people or individuals! We mean the criminal and terrorist government and state of Pakistan. Majority of people of Pakistan are hard working, peace loving and good human beings!

Ray
13 Aug 04,, 06:55
Who are Kalasha and some info is available on:

http://www.site-shara.net/_kalasha/eflm-kalasha.html

visioninthedark
15 Aug 04,, 02:53
MODS PLEASE DON'T DELETE ANY OF THESE PICTURES. THE REASON THEY ARE SO MANY IS TO BE ABLE TO GIVE A TRUE SAMPLE OF THE GENERAL POPULATION IN KASHMIR.

THIS IS FOR JANKHANDEAFGHAN ...

KASHMIRIS, MY PEOPLE;

THIS IS A WIDE SAMPLE OF PICTURES ... GENERAL VILLAGE PEOPLE ... ORDINARY FOLK ...

THIS SAMPLE CLEARLY SHOWS A REPRESENTATIVE CROSS-SECTION OF KASHMIRI VILLAGE FOLK ...

I THINK WE CAN GET A FAIRLY GOOD IDEA OF KASHMIRIS AND HOW THEY LOOK FROM THESE PICTURES ...

PICTURES HAVE BEEN LABELED AS PROOF THAT THEY ARE KASHMIRI PICTURES ... WHICH CAN BE ACCESSED ON CORBIS.COM ... SO THERE IS NO DOUBT OF THE VALIDITY OF THE PICTURES ...


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/CL001522.jpg
CL001522| RM| © Craig Lovell/CORBIS
Kashmiri Villagers
Young Muslim women in Kashmir wear red veils, India.
© Craig Lovell/CORBIS
Photographer: Craig Lovell
Location Information: Kashmir region, India


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/DWF15-726332.jpg
DWF15-726332| RM| © FAYAZ KABLI/Reuters/Corbis
A KASHMIRI MUSLIM GIRL WATCHES A PROCESSION IN SRINAGAR
Original caption: A Kashmiri Muslim girl watches a procession in Srinagar, May 21, 2004. Thousands of Kashmiri supporters of ACC, a separatist party, staged a procession and later assembled at "martyrs graveyard" to pay homage to their leader Moulana Mohammed Farooq who was killed by unidentified gunmen at his residence on May 21, 1990.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/MirofHunza.jpg
MIR OF HUNZA
Kashmir Region, Pakistan


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/UT0111190.jpg
© Reuters/CORBIS
AN INDIAN ARMY SOLDIER WRITES A NUMBER ON THE BACK OF A KASHMIRI YOUTH AT BARAMULLA


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/UT0136235.jpg
© Reuters/CORBIS
KASHMIRI WOMEN WATCH CREAMATION OF HINDU NEIGHBORS IN NADIMARG


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/UT0134340.jpg
UT0134340| RM| © Reuters/CORBIS
POLICEMAN STRIKES KASHMIRI SHIITE MUSLIM WITH A BATON IN SRINAGAR
Original caption: A policeman strikes a Kashmiri Shi'ite Muslim with a baton to prevent an Ashura procession in Srinagar, March 14, 2003. Police in Indian Kashmir detained nearly two dozen mourners as they tried to hold a procession on the occasion of Ashura, the 10th day of Muharram, the first Islamic month. REUTERS/Javeed Shah


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/DWF15-685494.jpg
DWF15-685494| RM| © KAMAL KISHORE/Reuters/Corbis
KASHMIRI MUSLIM WOMEN LISTEN TO A POLITICAL SPEECH IN SRINAGAR
Original caption: Kashmiri Muslim women listen to a political speech during a campaign rally in Srinagar, April 22, 2004.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/UT0123170.jpg
UT0123170| RM| © Reuters/CORBIS
LEADER OF ALL PARTIES HURRIYAT CONFERENCE SPEAKS IN ISLAMABAD
Original caption: Yousaf Naseem, a leader of All Parties Hurriyat Conference, speaks during a news conference in Islamabad September 25, 2002.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/UT0099030.jpg
UT0099030| RM| © Reuters/CORBIS
KASHMIR SEPARATIST GESTURES IN NEWS CONFERENCE IN SRINAGAR
Original caption: Abdul Gani Bhat, Chairman of Kashmir's leading separatist alliance, All parties Hurriyat (Freedom) Conference (APHC), gestures during a news conference in Srinagar, November 12, 2001. The APHC on Monday proposed a joint cease fire by India, Pakistan and Kashmiri rebels to pave way for peace talks over the disputed Himalayan region, where violence has escalated in recent weeks. REUTERS/Str


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/UT0094872.jpg
UT0094872| RM| © Reuters/CORBIS
A MUSLIM PRIEST DISPLAYS THE RELIC OF PROPHET MOHAMMED IN HAZRATBAL
Original caption: Ghulam Hassan Banday, a Muslim priest of Hazratbal shrine displays the holy relic believed to be a hair from the beard of the prophet Mohammed on the occasion of Meraj-ul Alam at Hazratbal on the outskirts of Srinagar, October 15, 2001. Thousands of Kashmiri Muslims thronged Hazratbal shrine which houses the relic of prophet Mohammed, to offer prayers during a religious anniversary. REUTERS/Fayaz Kabli

visioninthedark
15 Aug 04,, 02:56
JanKhanDeAfghan,

Now ... please stop making abusive and insulting comments against my people ...

visioninthedark
15 Aug 04,, 03:11
don't insult my people otherwise you'll force me to post pics of pushtoons/afghans ...

i don't want to do that ...

Aryan
15 Aug 04,, 04:38
What a brown sack of Sh*T! Kalash is in Chetral---NWFP! Kalash are decendent of Alexander the great. http://www.ishipress.com/macedon.htm

Yes, I got mixed up between them and another pagan tribe in Kashmir. I was posting about the Kalash on another forum. If you replace Kashmiri with Pakistani in my last post, my argument still stands. There are plenty of Pakistanis who are "whiter" than your caucasoid/mongoloid hybrid race.


Nope they are already in India! ahaha Salman Khan, Amir Khan, Shah Rokh khan, Qadir Khan, Tariq Khan, Sanji Khan and... are all Indicized Pashton and proud Indians! So are Irfan Pathan who plays for India's team! Nevertheless these Pashtons still look Irano-Afghan----Mediterranean!

WTF? First you talk about white Afghans, then you say the Khan posse in Delhi are indicized, then say they still look Irano-Afghan. What are you smoking? Oh, I forgot the nationality of the person I was talking to.


So what is the point you are trying to make? ha? Do you agree that we Afghans(Pashton and Balochs) look diff then *****.

The point I'm making is Baloch want nothing to do with you, they hate Afghanistan.


It is an open secret we are Mediterrrianean and you guys are Indic!

Open secret?


Afghans are Mediterranean while northindics are browns. Just check the pics, the pic you post are all fall under Irano-Afghan race.

Nordindid is a Europid race, do some research...And the pics I posted exhibit mongoloid feature, check again.


The only Mongoloid---Turkic people in Afghanistan are Hazaras---Mughals! They make less then 10% of people. On other hand, we see a large mixture of Dravidians in *****, special their brown skin, their tick lips and shape of their head!

Hazaras are Irano-Afghan, but probably do have turkic features, as do many Afghan.


As for as ***** being, rape, for over then 1000 years Muslim Afghan been invading India----special these area that is today Pakistan----this explains why some ***** have lighter skins and Mediterrean looks. Even before that the Aryans---Hindus also invaded India from Afghanistan.

Actually Afghanistan has historically been known as the whorehouse of Asia. The analogy is pretty accurate, you spend time in a whorehouse, but theres nothing much else there for you to stay for, no signs of intelligent life. People from Alexander the Great, through to Genghis Khan enjoyed the fruits of Afghanistan. Even to this day, the RAWA women fleeing teh Taliban quickly lost their flowers as soon as the got into Islamabad. Walking around in one of those mobile prisons does bring out the horny side of your women. :biggrin:

JanKhandeAfghan
15 Aug 04,, 18:49
Brown butted ****,
Keeping in mind the Afghan invasion of North India and Afghan rule of India for over then 1000 years---------personally my great grand father was governor of Kashmir also the influx of one million Pashton in Kashmir during Partition-----will explain the fair skin of these few Kashmires----- the Irano-Afghan Race features of these people is very visible.
While for one Irano-Afghan race Kashmirs there are hundred typical **** looking Kashmirs! You can check this while typing Kashmirs in google.com and then comparing it by typing Pakistani!


The result of Kashmirs Photo search on Google.com
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Kashmiris


Typical Kashmirie ****

http://www.satribune.com/archives/jan25_31_04/pix_amanullah.jpg




The result of Pakistani Photo search on Google.com

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Pakistani




The result of Pashton photo search on Google.com

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=Pashto&spell=1


The result of Afghanistani photo Search on Google.com

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Afghanistani



You see the difference between Mediterranean Pashtons(Afghans) and brown butted *****?





MODS PLEASE DON'T DELETE ANY OF THESE PICTURES. THE REASON THEY ARE SO MANY IS TO BE ABLE TO GIVE A TRUE SAMPLE OF THE GENERAL POPULATION IN KASHMIR.

THIS IS FOR JANKHANDEAFGHAN ...

KASHMIRIS, MY PEOPLE;

THIS IS A WIDE SAMPLE OF PICTURES ... GENERAL VILLAGE PEOPLE ... ORDINARY FOLK ...

THIS SAMPLE CLEARLY SHOWS A REPRESENTATIVE CROSS-SECTION OF KASHMIRI VILLAGE FOLK ...

I THINK WE CAN GET A FAIRLY GOOD IDEA OF KASHMIRIS AND HOW THEY LOOK FROM THESE PICTURES ...

PICTURES HAVE BEEN LABELED AS PROOF THAT THEY ARE KASHMIRI PICTURES ... WHICH CAN BE ACCESSED ON CORBIS.COM ... SO THERE IS NO DOUBT OF THE VALIDITY OF THE PICTURES ...


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/CL001522.jpg
CL001522| RM| © Craig Lovell/CORBIS
Kashmiri Villagers
Young Muslim women in Kashmir wear red veils, India.
© Craig Lovell/CORBIS
Photographer: Craig Lovell
Location Information: Kashmir region, India


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/DWF15-726332.jpg
DWF15-726332| RM| © FAYAZ KABLI/Reuters/Corbis
A KASHMIRI MUSLIM GIRL WATCHES A PROCESSION IN SRINAGAR
Original caption: A Kashmiri Muslim girl watches a procession in Srinagar, May 21, 2004. Thousands of Kashmiri supporters of ACC, a separatist party, staged a procession and later assembled at "martyrs graveyard" to pay homage to their leader Moulana Mohammed Farooq who was killed by unidentified gunmen at his residence on May 21, 1990.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/MirofHunza.jpg
MIR OF HUNZA
Kashmir Region, Pakistan


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/UT0111190.jpg
© Reuters/CORBIS
AN INDIAN ARMY SOLDIER WRITES A NUMBER ON THE BACK OF A KASHMIRI YOUTH AT BARAMULLA


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/UT0136235.jpg
© Reuters/CORBIS
KASHMIRI WOMEN WATCH CREAMATION OF HINDU NEIGHBORS IN NADIMARG


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/UT0134340.jpg
UT0134340| RM| © Reuters/CORBIS
POLICEMAN STRIKES KASHMIRI SHIITE MUSLIM WITH A BATON IN SRINAGAR
Original caption: A policeman strikes a Kashmiri Shi'ite Muslim with a baton to prevent an Ashura procession in Srinagar, March 14, 2003. Police in Indian Kashmir detained nearly two dozen mourners as they tried to hold a procession on the occasion of Ashura, the 10th day of Muharram, the first Islamic month. REUTERS/Javeed Shah


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/DWF15-685494.jpg
DWF15-685494| RM| © KAMAL KISHORE/Reuters/Corbis
KASHMIRI MUSLIM WOMEN LISTEN TO A POLITICAL SPEECH IN SRINAGAR
Original caption: Kashmiri Muslim women listen to a political speech during a campaign rally in Srinagar, April 22, 2004.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/UT0123170.jpg
UT0123170| RM| © Reuters/CORBIS
LEADER OF ALL PARTIES HURRIYAT CONFERENCE SPEAKS IN ISLAMABAD
Original caption: Yousaf Naseem, a leader of All Parties Hurriyat Conference, speaks during a news conference in Islamabad September 25, 2002.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/UT0099030.jpg
UT0099030| RM| © Reuters/CORBIS
KASHMIR SEPARATIST GESTURES IN NEWS CONFERENCE IN SRINAGAR
Original caption: Abdul Gani Bhat, Chairman of Kashmir's leading separatist alliance, All parties Hurriyat (Freedom) Conference (APHC), gestures during a news conference in Srinagar, November 12, 2001. The APHC on Monday proposed a joint cease fire by India, Pakistan and Kashmiri rebels to pave way for peace talks over the disputed Himalayan region, where violence has escalated in recent weeks. REUTERS/Str


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/KASHMIR/UT0094872.jpg
UT0094872| RM| © Reuters/CORBIS
A MUSLIM PRIEST DISPLAYS THE RELIC OF PROPHET MOHAMMED IN HAZRATBAL
Original caption: Ghulam Hassan Banday, a Muslim priest of Hazratbal shrine displays the holy relic believed to be a hair from the beard of the prophet Mohammed on the occasion of Meraj-ul Alam at Hazratbal on the outskirts of Srinagar, October 15, 2001. Thousands of Kashmiri Muslims thronged Hazratbal shrine which houses the relic of prophet Mohammed, to offer prayers during a religious anniversary. REUTERS/Fayaz Kabli

JanKhandeAfghan
15 Aug 04,, 19:36
Yes, I got mixed up between them and another pagan tribe in Kashmir. I was posting about the Kalash on another forum. If you replace Kashmiri with Pakistani in my last post, my argument still stands. There are plenty of Pakistanis who are "whiter" than your caucasoid/mongoloid hybrid race.

I just caught your hands in cookies jar--------if I didn’t had extensive knowledge about Kashmirs I would have believed you------yeek you might even fool some average Joe in this forum! -----You have formally been DE—PANT--ED!
Also what *****? First of all Kalash and Chetral is in Pashtonistan----second what difference a few million white Pashtons and Kalash in Pakistan's 130 million could make? An absolute majority of ***** are brown butted like youself! This is another reason why Pashtonistan the righteous and legal Part of Afghanistan which was taken away by British during great game MUST come back to Afghanistan! These people racially are way difference then brown Butted *****(Panjabis, Sindi, Kashmirs and... whom make more then 85% of *****!) Thanks for proving my point!






WTF? First you talk about white Afghans, then you say the Khan posse in Delhi are indicized, then say they still look Irano-Afghan. What are you smoking? Oh, I forgot the nationality of the person I was talking to.


The Pashtons in India have been mixed some what with Indian population---it is an open secret------they even proudly claim themselves Indian!----personally I have no beef with that--------these people been living in India for generations-------------although as i pointed out these people still look Irano-Afghan! Not just Muslim Pashtons even Hindu Pashtons look deferent-----Raj Kapoor's Family is a good example of Hindu Pashtons and how different Pashtons look then typical *****/Indian!






The point I'm making is Baloch want nothing to do with you, they hate Afghanistan.


Said who? Goo ask a Bloch he will tell you Baloch and Afghans (Pashtons) are cousins in race, culture, identity and history! During the ages of Afghans rules of region Baloch stood side by side with us---no matter if it was the conquest of India, the conquest of Persia or the conquest of Central Asia! Baloch and Pashtons been living side by side in Balochsitan but you never hear any fighting between the two DO YOU? Keep in mind the aggression nature of both Pashtons and Baloch this should tell you volume about solid bounds between Baloch and Pashtons! Indeed Personally i would like Balochistan to be an independent country---these proud people deserve to take advantage of their natural resources rather then allowing some brown Butted ***** to loot it!






Nordindid is a Europid race, do some research...And the pics I posted exhibit mongoloid feature, check again.



Europid? :eek: no matter what they look brown butted to me! Indeed noting to be ashamed of------being brown or white does not make one superior or inferior! Get over your inferiority complex!



Hazaras are Irano-Afghan, but probably do have turkic features, as do many Afghan.

Many Afghans? Pashtons and Tajiks makes an absolute majoirty of population of Afghanistan-----more then 85%---both Pashton and Tajiks racially are Irano-Afghan and culturally are eastern Iranian!



Actually Afghanistan has historically been known as the whorehouse of Asia. The analogy is pretty accurate, you spend time in a whorehouse, but theres nothing much else there for you to stay for, no signs of intelligent life. People from Alexander the Great, through to Genghis Khan enjoyed the fruits of Afghanistan. Even to this day, the RAWA women fleeing teh Taliban quickly lost their flowers as soon as the got into Islamabad. Walking around in one of those mobile prisons does bring out the horny side of your women :biggrin:
Wrong again, the only whore country is northern India---special those area that makes today Pakistan----can you deny the that Afghan ruled you brown butted for more then 1000+ years? No invader ever stayed in Afghanistan------Afghanistan was used as a gate way to India-----this explains why Afghans generally have unified look------irano-Afghan look---the high mountains and valley prevented any inter---breading with invaders-----even today majority of Afghans look down on Mongolied Hazara and Turks-------you never hear an Afghan or Afghanistani----Tajiks marring an Hazara or Uzbak!
Also your country Pakistan has official brothels where government receive tax----Hera Mandai and Hera Bazaar just to name a few------this coupling with the rate of rape----ever two hours an innocent girl is being rape, or gang rape in Pakistan----(mostly in Panjab, Sind and Kashmirs.) explains a loot about your brown butted culture-lees and with no Identity filths!




"““According to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, every two hours a woman is raped in Pakistan and every eight hours a woman is subjected to gang rape. The frequency of rape is thought to be much higher but many rapes remain unreported due to a combination of social taboos, discriminatory laws and victimization by the police. Meanwhile, Pakistani law is punishing victims of rape as though they were criminals while the perpetrators go free.”

Aryan
15 Aug 04,, 19:39
LOL you are pathetic. Look at all the pictures vision posted, dozens of Kashmiris. You post a single blurry picture of the darkest Kashmiri you could find, and posted that.

I looked at the google search you did, and these are the first pictures that came out:
http://www.pashto.org/wallpapers/Haroon.jpg

http://www.mastana.net/music_mp3_files/Beltoon/Pashto%20program/beltoon%20pashto.jpg

http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/uploads/large/pierce2004-03-12.jpg

Face it, you are an idiot.


Keeping in mind the Afghan invasion of North India and Afghan rule of India for over then 1000 years---------personally my great grand father was governor of Kashmir also the influx of one million Pashton in Kashmir during Partition-----will explain the fair skin of these few Kashmires----- the Irano-Afghan Race features of these people is very visible.

What Afghan invasion? Just because the Mughals invaded through Afghanistan, doesn't make then ragheads. They were Turks, not spear throwing Afghans.

And don't make claims you can't verify. Your grandfather wasn't a "governor of Kashmir" he was more likely a Pashto opium farmer or something. Its left its mark on you, look you are unable to contruct coherent sentences.


While for one Irano-Afghan race Kashmirs there are hundred typical **** looking Kashmirs! You can check this while typing Kashmirs in google.com and then comparing it by typing Pakistani!

That made me sick. Don't associate me with your filthy people, you can call me a Pakistani, but please don't insult me by calling me an Afghan. Thats the worst insult you could call me :mad:

Ray
15 Aug 04,, 22:32
This is from teh Jung of Sunday under Dialogue,

Balochistan again

The contradictory claims of 'operation cleanup against terrorists' or 'military operation against nationalists' apart, the situation in Balochistan sends waves of anxiety through the country



By Muhammad Ejaz Khan

The recent incidents of attacks first on the military convoy in Makran followed by the Khuzdar incident of August 1, that claimed the lives of six people, including five army men, have sent a wave of anxiety throughout the country.

The five off-duty jawans were killed when unidentified armed men opened fire with lethal automatic weapons on a private pick-up in Khuzdar. These soldiers had just left the heavily guarded military cantonment. The five armymen as well as the driver of the pickup died on the spot. Subsequently, an attack on Balochistan chief minister's convoy in Anjera area of Khuzdar on August 2 left two men dead.

The initial response from the province's political forces appeared to justify the killing of soldiers. According to some reports, a spokesman of Baloch Liberation Army (BLA) claimed that the killings were a protest against the army operation "against innocent people of Turbat and the construction of new military cantonments in Kohlu, Dera Bugti and Gwadar."

However, the Central Secretary General Balochistan National Party (BNP-Mengal) and former Senator Habib Jalib Baloch in a news conference in Quetta did not accept that the Khuzdar incident was a terrorist act. He is also reported to have said, "We don't condemn the incident.".

Contrary to the claims of the government that there is no military operation under way in any part of the province, the central leadership of the alliance of four Baloch nationalist parties, including Jamhoori Watan Party (JWP), National Party (NP), BNP-Mengal and Baloch Haq Tawar (BHT), said that military operation is under way in various parts of Balochistan, including Turbat, Gwadar, Kohlu and Dera Bugti. These nationalist parties also claimed that more than 200 people had been arrested during the operation in which jet aircraft, Cobra helicopters and tanks were used.

"In Turbat district, helicopters of the security forces are taking part in the search operation and the personnel of these forces have launched a house to house search operation," said a leader of a Baloch party.

"The operation has created a wave of resentment among the people of the area," said Kachkol Ali Baloch of NP who is also the leader of opposition in the Balochistan Assembly. "The paramilitary troops have established four new check posts in Tular, Beri, Dudday and Nailain areas of Gwadar district. What is the justification of setting up these new check posts?" he asked.

Agha Shahid Bugti, Central Secretary General JWP, regretted the operation being launched by the government from Turbat to Kohlu districts of Balochistan. "The innocent people are also being harassed in Sui and Dera Bugti in an attempt to pave the way for establishing cantonments even there," he said.

The Baloch nationalist leaders claimed that the operation was in full swing in Turbat, Gwadar and Khuzdar. According to them seventeen people arrested in different raids were in lockups in Khuzdar while six others were arrested recently. More than 70 people were shifted to unknown places, they held. Non-bailable arrest warrants have been issued against the former chief minister and central chief of BNP-Mengal Sardar Akhtar Mengal and several other nationalist leaders.

The alliance of four Baloch nationalist parties has demanded that the operation be called off, the political workers and students be released and the 'fake' cases against them withdrawn.

Contradicting the allegations of nationalists, Balochistan Chief Minister Jam Muhammad Yousuf denies that there was any military operation underway in the province, saying action is being taken only against those elements that had established terrorist camps in Makran.

"An operation cleanup is in progress in Makran," the chief minister declared on the floor of Balochistan Assembly. The people of Makran, according to him, were fed up with the terrorists and they had complained in this regard. In the terrorist camps of Makran, people were being provided training, he divulged.

"Some time back," the chief minister confided, "the terrorists attacked a military convoy in Makran, in which many people were killed. Soon after the attack the law-enforcement agencies launched an operation against the terrorists, which was still in progress and so far six camps had been destroyed." In the action the law-enforcement agencies have apprehended three alleged terrorists and recovered arms and ammunition. "We had to take action against terrorists in order to maintain the writ of the government," said Jam of Lasbela in the assembly.

Refuting the claims of the government, the opposition leader Kachkol Ali Baloch said, also on the floor of the assembly, that if there was any terrorist camp in Makran, why did the government not take the assembly and the people of the province into confidence before launching the 'military operation'.

"The ISPR spokesman Maj-Gen Shaukat Sultan in a television interview denied recovery of anything during the operation in Makran," he said. "It is surprising that contrary to the claims of the ISPR spokesman, the chief minister has made these disclosures about terrorist camps."

It may be noted here that establishing Gwadar port in Makran is on top of the political agenda of the province for the last couple of years, followed by establishment of cantonments in three districts of Balochistan i.e. Sui tehsil of district Dera Bugti, Kohlu and Gwadar.

A majority of the politico-nationalists parties belonging to Balochistan, including MMA, which is one of the major partners of Jam Yousuf led coalition government, have opposed the establishment of new military garrisons. The provincial assembly had last year passed a resolution rejecting the setting up of new cantonments.

"What is the justification of establishing a cantonment in Sui tehsil of Dera Bugti as there is already a cantonment in Pano Aqil only 100 miles away from Dera Bugti?" asked CSG JWP Agha Shahid Bugti while talking to TNS. "The government should honour the joint resolution that was passed by the Balochistan Assembly which rejected the idea of more cantonments. The people of the province need basic amenities of life including employment, health, education and other facilities, instead of more cantonments," he said.

As for the setting up of Gwadar port, the nationalist leaders are of the view that it will affect the Baloch culture and traditions with the influx of more than 2 million people from other parts of the country. Balochistan, they hold, will get nothing from Gwadar port except a 3.5 per cent share out of total income from the port, while the rest of the income will go to Islamabad, as has happened with the Sui gas of Dera Bugti district.

Some reports suggest the possibility of foreign elements being involved behind the opposition of Gwadar port. The development of Gwadar port and other mega projects could affect the economic, trade and other interests of some of neighbouring states and regional and big powers, the reports claim.

In the circumstances, the nationalist parties stress the need for a meaningful and logical dialogue on these issues to help protect the interests of Balochistan and Baloch nation.

In a latest development last week, the Secretary of the National Security Council (NSC) Tariq Aziz held talks with the Chief of JWP Nawab Muhammad Akbar Khan Bugti and, on behalf of the federal government, invited the Baloch leadership for talks to resolve the contentious issues. The JWP has reportedly replied that the offer will be discussed with the leadership of four Baloch parties' nationalist alliance, before extending any green signal or holding talks with the centre.

If the government and the nationalist parties in Balochistan earnestly want to resolve the problems of the province's people, there must be a dialogue involving all the stakeholders and their viewpoints heard sympathetically. The people of Balochistan have to be assured that their interest would be foremost in all development projects, long before the people from other areas.

Ray
15 Aug 04,, 22:38
The News International (Pakistan)
29 July 2000
Op-Ed. (Sorry, no URL)

ORIGINS OF QUETTA VIOLENCE

by Asad Rahman

Since the end of the last civil war 1973-77, Balochistan as a whole has
been spared the bloodshed, terror and brutalisation of civil society
witnessed in Sindh and Punjab until the recent rocket and bomb attacks
over the past few months. From all the reports appearing in the press,
the local administration and security forces seem to be at a loss as to
the identity of the perpetrators. This confusion is a reflection of the
apathy of the internal security agencies towards law and order in a
province that has seen four civil wars.

The genesis of these civil wars lies in how Balochistan became part of
the newly created state of Pakistan in 1947. The first two, 1948 and
1958, lasted a few months and ended in surrender of the nationalist
groups along with the incarceration of the then Khan of Kalat, Ahmed Yar
Khan, under house arrest in Lahore for 15 odd years until a few years
before his death. The surrenders were brought about with oath on the
Holy Qur'aan by then Colonel Tikka Khan, later General, to right the
wrongs perpetrated on Balochistan by the federal governments. Nawab
Nouroz Khan, leader of the 1958 resistance, died at the age of 90 in
Hyderabad jail. Six of his companions, his sons and nephews, were hung
until dead in the same jail. His son tied a copy of the Holy Qur'aan
around his neck on the day of his hanging asking for it to be hung along
with him as it was on its oath that they had surrendered.

The third civil war lasted six years from 1962 to 1968. Only two battles
of any note took place in these six years with heavy losses on the
paramilitary side and victories for the Baloch. The Baloch did not
suffer much in terms of human losses but lost a huge number of livestock
(their mainstay economic activity) through bombardment. The fourth and
last civil war, 1973 to 1977, was the bloodiest in terms of human and
economic terms. The army and paramilitary forces engaged in this war
numbered around 80,000 men supported by Iranian helicopter gunships,
armoured vehicles and mortar artillery. It was the first civil war in
which the elite SSG Commando units were also sent into battle. Against
this the Baloch resistance fielded some 1,000 guerrilla fighters at any
given moment with antiquated second world war weapons like the Enfield
.303, hunting rifles and locally made Darra rifles. It is estimated that
the government forces suffered nearly 5,000 casualties while the Baloch
guerrilla forces suffered 1,500 casualties, both combatant and
non-combatant.

The scale in which modern weaponry was used in this civil war forced
some 7,000 families to seek refuge in Afghanistan where they remained as
refugees for sixteen years until their return to Balochistan in 1992.
These wars were the result of political and economic mismanagement by
successive federal governments in their relations and resource
allocations to the smaller (in terms of population) provinces of
Balochistan, Sindh and NWFP. The tribal setup of Balochistan, with some
radical nationalist Sardars, Nawabs and an armed population was always
in the forefront in demanding equitable provincial rights. Instead of
acting in a patriotic, nationalist and accommodating manner, all federal
governments have resorted to repressive force to quell their aspirations
of identity as Pakistanis, economic progress and a standard of living
equal to that of the other developed areas of the country.

With dismal education and economic standards, shackled in an oppressive
tribal system, the general public still has no say in the political
affairs of Balochistan and have to depend on their Sardars, Nawabs and
influentials to represent them at the provincial and national levels.
Historically, the institution of Sardar was democratic and was elected
from any section or family of the tribe whom they felt could best
represent the interests of the tribe. It was British colonialists who
converted this institution into a hereditary one and thus contributed to
the emergence of an oppressive, repressive and exploitative institution.
In the light of this development, some Sardars and Nawabs took on the
role of representatives for the whole of the Baloch nation. Thus formed
the ruling elite of the Baloch who, following in the footsteps of the
national ruling elite, indulged in corruption, repression of their own
people and used their people's armed power to serve their own self
interests, aggrandizement and projection.

This was the situation in the 1970s when a few young educated people
from Lahore and Karachi were invited by (then) radical nationalist
leaders of Balochistan, Nawab Khair Baksh Marri and Sher Mohammed Marri,
to come into their tribal area for social work. These boys not only made
significant contributions in the armed resistance from 1973 to 1977 but
also made another vital contribution in raising the awareness of the
people to the exploitative nature of the tribal and Sardari system. It
is because of this awakening of the people that has led to internal
tribal conflicts between the Sardars and their tribal subjects. These
conflicts are epitomised in the ongoing conflicts in the orthodox Marri
and Bugti tribes. In the Marri tribe, the conflict has its beginnings in
the refugee camps in Afghanistan when the Bijarani sections led by Sher
Mohammed and Mir Hazar Ramkani began to question the role of Nawab Khair
Baksh Marri, Sardar Ataullah Mengal in the 1973-77 resistance war and
the aid that they had purportedly received from various sympathetic
countries and sources for the war effort.

This falling out between the Bijaranis and the Nawab split the tribe
into three factions, the pro-Nawab and anti-Nawab factions and those
that remain neutral. The Bijarani section is the majority of the tribe
constituting nearly 55%, while the Gazainis number around 30% and the
remaining 15% are the Loharanis/Sheranis. Nawab Khair Baksh belongs to
the Bhawalanzai subsection of the Gazainis. The position of the Nawab at
present is very precarious even amongst the Gazainis as most have turned
away from him due to his stance against any economic or political/social
development for his tribe. The Bijaranis on the other hand are trying to
cooperate with the provincial and federal governments to develop the
areas that fall under their control. They have invited the oil company
that holds the lease for their area (block 2 to come in and explore
for oil and gas. On their own they have begun to mine coal from the
Kohlu area against the wishes of the Nawab. The Nawab allegedly
retaliated by having one of the coal transporting trucks attacked in
which one Pathan was killed and some others injured. The mining
operation continued with the Bijaranis providing security to the coal
transporters. Subsequently the murder of Justice Mohammed Nawaz Marri, a
Bijarani, was committed a few months ago. The local authorities arrested
Nawab Khair Baksh for allegedly instigating this murder. The Nawab's
sons are also wanted for interrogation but are absconding.

It is a known fact that Nawab Khair Baksh and Sardar Attaullah have
nurtured the dream of a greater Balochistan for decades constituted by
the Baloch areas of Afghanistan, Iran and Pakistani Balochistan. It has
been reported that a hitherto undeclared Balochistan Liberation Army is
claiming responsibility for the recent bomb blasts and rocket attacks in
Quetta. It is also noteworthy that ever since Nawab Khair Baksh has been
under arrest that these bombings have taken place periodically and their
frequency has increased. Is there a connection keeping in view the
history of the four civil wars, the dream of a greater Balochistan, the
attacks on the Bijaranis opposing Khair Baksh, the murder of Justice
Marri and the emergence of the Balochistan Liberation Army? These are
the questions that the investigating and security agencies have to
answer in order to unravel this dangerous situation and stop it from
escalating.

visioninthedark
15 Aug 04,, 23:34
JanKhandeAfghan;

although I find this utterly stupid ... BUT

since you force me and chose to malign my people ... please find attached many many pictures of Afghans/Pathans ...

I posted many many pictures of PUBLIC i.e. PUBLIC PICTURES IN GENERAL of ordinary people in Kashmir... you searched so hard and posted one pic and even I don't know if its a true Kashmiri or your own picture ...

anyways ... here are pic of pushtoons;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/PATHANS/AAEC001020.jpg
AAEC001020| RM| © Reza; Webistan/CORBIS
Pashtun Mujahideen of Mahaz-e Melli Group
© Reza; Webistan/CORBIS
Photographer: Reza
Date Photographed: ca. May-June 1983
Location Information: South of Kabul, Afghanistan



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/PATHANS/MZ001302.jpg
MZ001302| RM| © Mike Zens/CORBIS
A Pathan boy holds a toddler.
© Mike Zens/CORBIS



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/PATHANS/AAEC001009.jpg
AAEC001009| RM| © Reza; Webistan/CORBIS
Pashtun Villager on Hill
© Reza; Webistan/CORBIS
Photographer: Reza
Date Photographed: ca. May-June 1983
Location Information: South of Kabul, Afghanistan



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/PATHANS/000275822-007.jpg
000275822-007| RM| © PATRICK ROBERT/CORBIS SYGMA
Afghan Resistance Commander Answering Questions
Afghan Resistance Commander Abdul Haq at a press conference.
© PATRICK ROBERT/CORBIS SYGMA
Photographer: Patrick Robert
Date Photographed: May 3, 1992
Location Information: Kabul, Afghanistan



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/PATHANS/UT0101247.jpg
UT0101247| RM| © Reuters/CORBIS
ALKOZAI HUGGS THE AFGHAN KINGS GRANDSON MOSTAPHA ZAHIR IN KOENIGSWINTER
Original caption: Haji Ataullah Alkozai, a member of the Peshawar group, hugs Mostapha Zahir (R), grandson of former Afghan King Zahir Shahis and a representative of the Rome delegation, following the official signing ceremony of an U.N. brokered Afghanistan deal at the German government guesthouse Petersberg in Koenigswinter near Bonn December 5, 2001. Afghan rivals struck a landmark accord on Wednesday to set aside two decades of war and form a post-Taliban government led by Pashtun chief Hamid Karzai to steer their shattered nation towards democracy. The U.N. brokered deal, reached before dawn on the ninth day of gruelling talks, creates a government with 30 members reflecting Afghanistan's ethnic diversity to rule for about six months until a Loya Jirga, or traditional assembly, is held. REUTERS/Ralph Orlowski
© Reuters/CORBIS


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/PATHANS/MF006760.jpg
MF006760| RM| © Michael Freeman/CORBIS
Bearded Pathan Man
© Michael Freeman/CORBIS


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/PATHANS/MF006988.jpg
MF006988| RM| © Michael Freeman/CORBIS
Food Stalls at a Pathan Fair
Chopped lamb is fried on hot plates over open wood fires.
© Michael Freeman/CORBIS




I LEAVE IT TO THE VIEWS TO SEE WHO IS WHAT .... THERE ARE PICTURES OF KASHMIRIS AND THOSE OF PUKHTOONS .... ORDINARY PICTURES OF KASHMIRIS ...



Now ... don't act like a blind person and go back to that madrassah you came from ...

JanKhandeAfghan
16 Aug 04,, 06:52
Brown butted ****,
Posting photo of The Brahui and claiming them to be Pashtons future shows your inferiorty complex. Off course as a **** with less then 57 years of history, no identity and no reason for being a nation other then religion it is very common to suffer from deep self aversion and claim to be something you are not.

For a change take a look at this site which explains about Brahui people and their origin.

http://www.baloch2000.org/people/ethnic.htm



JanKhandeAfghan;

although I find this utterly stupid ... BUT

anyways ... here are pic of pushtoons;


AAEC001020| RM| © Reza; Webistan/CORBIS
Pashtun Mujahideen of Mahaz-e Melli Group
© Reza; Webistan/CORBIS
Photographer: Reza
Date Photographed: ca. May-June 1983
Location Information: South of Kabul, Afghanistan
These are typical Barhais from Mahaz a



here are a few Afghan people.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/x0736m/rep2/img/AFGHAN.jpg


From http://www.mardan.sdnpk.org/History%20and%20Culture.htm

http://www.mardan.sdnpk.org/Images/Image10.jpg
http://www.mardan.sdnpk.org/Images/Image9.jpg


http://www.gold.ac.uk/hallmark/research/res5/afghan.jpg

From http://www.campeace.org/afghanistan1.html

http://www.campeace.org/afghanistan1_files/image001.jpg



Do you see the Mideterianian race of these people? Hello Brown **** boy!

http://members.tripod.com/womenmarines/images/Afghani_Elders.jpg

http://www.uni-koeln.de/ew-fak/Chemie/images/afghani_1.jpg

http://www.ob.org/programs/disaster_relief/images/afghan_medtrip2.jpg

JanKhandeAfghan
16 Aug 04,, 06:54
For not allowing me to post all these images, so here is part two





http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/PATHANS/000275822-007.jpg
000275822-007| RM| © PATRICK ROBERT/CORBIS SYGMA
Afghan Resistance Commander Answering Questions
Afghan Resistance Commander Abdul Haq at a press conference.
© PATRICK ROBERT/CORBIS SYGMA
Photographer: Patrick Robert
Date Photographed: May 3, 1992
Location Information: Kabul, Afghanistan

Bloody Brown *****,
take another look at this guy!
http://images.tvnz.co.nz/news/afghan_war/abdul_haq.jpg

http://www.jsonline.com/blocks/image4/haq102601.jpg








http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/visioninthedark/PATHANS/UT0101247.jpg
UT0101247| RM| © Reuters/CORBIS
ALKOZAI HUGGS THE AFGHAN KINGS GRANDSON MOSTAPHA ZAHIR IN KOENIGSWINTER
Original caption: Haji Ataullah Alkozai, a member of the Peshawar group, hugs Mostapha Zahir (R), grandson of former Afghan King Zahir Shahis and a representative of the Rome delegation, following the official signing ceremony of an U.N. brokered Afghanistan deal at the German government guesthouse Petersberg in Koenigswinter near Bonn December 5, 2001. Afghan rivals struck a landmark accord on Wednesday to set aside two decades of war and form a post-Taliban government led by Pashtun chief Hamid Karzai to steer their shattered nation towards democracy. The U.N. brokered deal, reached before dawn on the ninth day of gruelling talks, creates a government with 30 members reflecting Afghanistan's ethnic diversity to rule for about six months until a Loya Jirga, or traditional assembly, is held. REUTERS/Ralph Orlowski
© Reuters/CORBIS

here brown butty ****, take a look at this guy!
Can you tell this guy is Mideterian?
http://www.rferl.org/images/about/impact/mostapha-02.jpg











I LEAVE IT TO THE VIEWS TO SEE WHO IS WHAT .... THERE ARE PICTURES OF KASHMIRIS AND THOSE OF PUKHTOONS .... ORDINARY PICTURES OF KASHMIRIS ...


Here lets compare Afghan and Brown *****!

here are pic of Kashmirs!

http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/media/voters_queue_2002.jpg

Typical Brown butty **** Kashmiries----by the way why you brown sack of sh*T wear Pashton cloths? Wear your own dipear **** boy!




http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/370000/images/_371320_kashmiris150.jpg
Thursday, June 17, 1999 Published at 10:16 GMT 11:16 UK
World: South Asia
Indian navy put on high alert
Thousands of Kashmiris have fled the shelling


http://www.kashmiris.org/PhotosHome/photoSingle-frehmani/pic_mfr211103.jpg
Muhammad Farooq Rehmani Chairman JKPFL& Convener APHC

This guy is Kashmir leader , you see the typical Brown **** look of his? Hello?


Here is Afghan presedent Karzia http://www.washingtonlife.com/backissues/archives/02mar/photos/ar01.jpg

http://www.washingtonlife.com/backissues/archives/02mar/photos/ar05.jpg
Dr Abdullah Minster of external


Here is an Afghan with a nordic lady--

http://www.washingtonlife.com/backissues/archives/02mar/photos/ar03.jpg Afghan Minister of Higher Education Dr. Faisel & Dr. Jennifer Noyan


DO you now see the difference between Mediterranean Afghan (irano-Afghan race) and Brown *****!



Here ARE pics of Kashmires!

http://sangha.net/Photos/Dec06242.jpg



From http://sangha.net/Photos/Kashmir.htm Kashmir Photo Gallery


http://sangha.net/Photos/Dec06262.jpg

http://sangha.net/Photos/dec06245.jpg




Now ... don't act like a blind person and go back to that madrassah you came from ...


Bonehead, the point is as you can see, all brown butt ***** are Indic in race and Afghans like Iranian, Tajiks, Kurds, Palestinians, Italians, Greeks, are Mediterranean!
Get this in your brown butted head!!!!

JanKhandeAfghan
16 Aug 04,, 07:14
[QUOTE]What Afghan invasion? Just because the Mughals invaded through Afghanistan, doesn't make then ragheads. They were Turks, not spear throwing Afghans.
Lets see, Ghanavid, Gories, Lodies, Suries, Abdulies, just to name a few. Also Mughals were Afghanistani-----Hazaras! Babur was king of Kabul bonehead before he took India from Afghan King Ibraham Loudi!



And don't make claims you can't verify. Your grandfather wasn't a "governor of Kashmir" he was more likely a Pashto opium farmer or something. Its left its mark on you, look you are unable to contruct coherent sentences.

At the time my great great grand father was governor of Kashmir, your great great grand father was wearing dipear-----**** cloths! :biggrin:


From Kashmir Paradise on Earth http://www.jktourism.org/cities/kashmir/site-see/

"The well-known sights in the city are Shankaracharya Temple atop the hill called Takht-e-Suleiman, a 5 km climb from Nehru Park on a metalled road. Across the city is another, much lower hill crowned by the Hari Parbat Fort, built by an Afghan governor of Kashmir in the 18th century. The low wall enclosing the upper part of the hill was constructed by Emperor Akbar. On the hill are several famous places of worship: the temple of goddess Sharika, the shrine of Muslim saint Makhdoorn Sahib, and the historic Sikh Gurudwara Chatti Padshahi."

Now go check the name of Muhammed Azim Khan my great great grand father!



That made me sick. Don't associate me with your filthy people, you can call me a Pakistani, but please don't insult me by calling me an Afghan. Thats the worst insult you could call me :mad:

Stop being sarcastic brown butty ****, your grandmom being rape by Afghans does not turns you a brown butted **** into Mediterranean proud Afghan! You will always be an ID-less, cultureless and fanatic Dewbandi ****! Sometimes i wonder if it is the Dewbandi religion that turns you characterless scams into animals----since the Hindu Indians i know are very ethical with high character people!

Ray
16 Aug 04,, 09:42
Brown butts/ white butts/ speckled butts/ or whatever,

Please post small pictures. It takes hours to open the page.

Thank you.

Also thank you both, it was most educative. I learnt a lot. I also thank you for the comic relief. Caught iwith the hand in the cookie jar; covered the faux pas as 'pagan' tribes?

Just because they are in the minority, they are 'pagan'? Come on get real. Let everyone's belief flourish so long as they don't start killing you with relgious claptrap. Is killing in the name of religion not also pagan-ish. If a religion was so terriffic, love would convert and not the sword. No jihad and other bullshit.

I support the Afghans, those who have not been influenced by the Taliban wierdos taught in the mad asses of the madrassas in Pokistan. I like Karzai.

Balochis are rebelling. There is a Balochi Liberation Army. That is a rebellion or a freedom movement?

Those who live in glass houses should not..........

Aryan
16 Aug 04,, 15:14
You really are an idiot, all the pictures Vision posted they weren't Brahui, they were Pashtoos, and you think thats all there are? There are hundreds more.

All the pictures you posted of Afghans are under studio lighting, you could make an African look white under them. :biggrin: All the skinny/naked pictures of Pushtos in open look pretty dark to me.


Lets see, Ghanavid, Gories, Lodies, Suries, Abdulies, just to name a few. Also Mughals were Afghanistani-----Hazaras! Babur was king of Kabul bonehead before he took India from Afghan King Ibraham Loudi!

Hazara's aren't Afghans, did anyone ask them if they wanted to be part of Afghanistan?

Ghaznavi = Turk
Ghauri = Turk
Babur = Turk

All came to Afghanistan, or ancestors came to afghanistan to plunder it. When they discovered Afghanistan was pretty much a land barren of civilisation and development, they went on to Pakistan and India. Hence my point they used Afghanistan like a brothel.

Now look at all the other nations that have enjoyed the Afghan women; Persia, Greece, Pakistan, India (under Asoka), Turkey and central Asian nations, Mongolia, China, Sikhs, the Russians and the British. That list isn't exhaustive.


At the time my great great grand father was governor of Kashmir, your great great grand father was wearing dipear-----**** cloths! :biggrin:

Now do you see my point about how contructing sentences in English remains a challenge for you?


Stop being sarcastic brown butty ****, your grandmom being rape by Afghans does not turns you a brown butted **** into Mediterranean proud Afghan! You will always be an ID-less, cultureless and fanatic Dewbandi ****! Sometimes i wonder if it is the Dewbandi religion that turns you characterless scams into animals----since the Hindu Indians i know are very ethical with high character people!

I'm not deobandi, I'm shia. Most Pakistanis aren't deobandi, they are either shia or Barelwi. Deobandi is based in India, and the only group in Pakistan who follow the Deobandi school of thought are the Pushto.

And while we are on the subject, if you say Pakistan's history only reaches as far back as 1947, then Afghanistan's only goes as far back as 1747.


Bonehead, the point is as you can see, all brown butt ***** are Indic in race and Afghans like Iranian, Tajiks, Kurds, Palestinians, Italians, Greeks, are Mediterranean!
Get this in your brown butted head!!!!

LOL, now you are talking out of your arse. You obviously can't even spell anthropology, let alone comprehend it.

Ray
16 Aug 04,, 15:55
Aryan,

You are guilty of terminological inexactitude. Babar etc did not come through Pakistan. There was nothing called Pakistan then.

History my boy, history!

Aryan
16 Aug 04,, 16:25
Aryan,

You are guilty of terminological inexactitude. Babar etc did not come through Pakistan. There was nothing called Pakistan then.

History my boy, history!

Then people who claim Julius Caesar invaded and occupied Egypt are also guilty of "terminological inexactitude", there was no Egypt then.

P.S, cut the bullshit vocabulary out, it's a sign of insecurity. If you want to prove yourself as an educated person, studying a thesaurus isn't the way to go about it.

roshan
16 Aug 04,, 17:17
Theres quite a lot of nonsense being posted about the history of India.

First of all, Mahmud of Ghazni who first conquered northern India was a seljuq turk.

When the seljuq turks began to decline, the karikatai turks who inhabited ghor attacked ghazna and destroyed it. Due to this the Ghaznavids crumbled and were replaced by smaller Hindu and Muslim states. Then the karikatai turk Mohammed Ghor invaded north India.

After the Ghorids crumbled, a slave of the Ghorids, Qutuddin Aibak took over. This dynasty was known as the slave dynasty. These slaves, called mamluks, were trained specialists of warfare who served the sultans, and were almost exclusively turks. So we have a third turkish dynasty.

Then you had the Khiljis, another Turkish dynasty. Alauddin Khilji fought off a a number of mongol attacks.

Then you had a couple of people from the Tughluq dynasty who were also turks.

The power of the Delhi sultanate was then destroyed by Timur the Lame who was also a Turk, and it was after the Turks from outside India destroyed the Turkic Delhi Sultanate that the Afghan Lodi Dynasty took over.

However, Afghan rule in India only lasted for 70 years until the Turkic Mughals under Babur invaded and defeated the Afghans.

15 years later, the Afghan Sher Shah of Sur reestablished Afghan rule in Delhi, but the Afghans only ruled for 13 years until Baburs son Humayun defeated them

So, Afghans only ruled North India for less than 85 years total.


Of course, after the Mughal collapse, some Afghans were able to conquer Kashmir and parts of Punjab but their expansion was checked by Sikhs and Marathas.

Ray
16 Aug 04,, 17:40
Aryan,

I don't require a dictionary or a thesaurus just because you require it. Catch me being insecure. Those who are, claim pseudo British or white affinity or passing off as German. I am happy to be an Indian.

Must I prove that I am educated? Isn't that evident. You don't have to prove axioms. Since you are having a problem with my English, an axiom is a "statement or proposition that needs no proof because its truth is obvious".

If someone wishes to call it Egypt, then he is as iliterate as a person who claims that the invaders to came through Pakistan! It is, to say the least, most amusing.

It was also hilarious to see you so vehemently trying your best to prove that you are white! Tell me, what's so great about being white? As a Pakistani, isn't it time that you claim you are yellow since you ahve been 'chamchafying' (lapdogging) the Communist Chinese? Show me one genuine white claiming he is white! Actually, they love to loll on the beach to get a tan!

You flash photos of tribes i.e. Kalash who are not Kashmiris and then when 'caught' call those same tribes as pagans since they don't follow Islam! Aren't you being a trifle juvenile?

Ray
16 Aug 04,, 17:46
Roshan,

The Afghans ruled Kashmir for a long time.

roshan
16 Aug 04,, 18:26
Roshan,

The Afghans ruled Kashmir for a long time.

True, the Afghans ruled Kashmir from 1767-1819, which was quite a long time. But I did not say that the Afgahns didnt rule long, all I said was that conquering Kashmir and parts of Punjab is not equal to conquering India.

The only time that Afghans ever ruled a significant portion of India was during the Lodis, whose reign only lasted 70 years. And the only reason that the Lodis came to power was because the Turk Tamerlane destroyed the Turkic Delhi sultanate. Except for the Lodis, all the other Muslim rulers in India were Turks, not Afghans.

Jay
16 Aug 04,, 18:34
And ofcourse Delhi, UP, Punjab is just not India. Other than Malik Kafur (Slave Dynasty) no one has won against South Indian kings. Even Malik Kafur just won the Pandiya Kingdom and ruled Madurai for 60 years, which was reclaimed by Krishnadeva Raya's Vijaynagar Empire.

Ray
16 Aug 04,, 19:42
Catch some myopic individuals understanding ancient India.

At least one, whose dawn of history goes way back to only to 1947 may not comprehend too far back in years. From him, civilisation started I reckon in 1947 and anything beyond is mere figment of a heated fertile mind.

visioninthedark
17 Aug 04,, 00:23
True, the Afghans ruled Kashmir from 1767-1819, which was quite a long time. But I did not say that the Afgahns didnt rule long, all I said was that conquering Kashmir and parts of Punjab is not equal to conquering India.

The only time that Afghans ever ruled a significant portion of India was during the Lodis, whose reign only lasted 70 years. And the only reason that the Lodis came to power was because the Turk Tamerlane destroyed the Turkic Delhi sultanate. Except for the Lodis, all the other Muslim rulers in India were Turks, not Afghans.


I quote you above:


the Afghans ruled Kashmir from 1767-1819, which was quite a long time.

so ... from 1767-1819 ... that 52 years .... yes ... FIFTY-TWO YEARS .... and ... you decribe it as "quite a long time" ....


on the other hand;


The only time that Afghans ever ruled a significant portion of India was during the Lodis, whose reign only lasted 70 years.

you describe a period of 70 years ... seventy years ... as "only" .... giving the impression that 70 years in not a long time ...

so .... does the definition of a "long time" vary in your mind depending upon which place was ruled?

in Kashmir 52 years is described as a "very long time" .... while for the same Afghan rule of Dehli .... 70 years is described as "only" ... meaning a shorth period?

visioninthedark
17 Aug 04,, 00:24
However, Afghan rule in India only lasted for 70 years until the Turkic Mughals under Babur invaded and defeated the Afghans.

15 years later, the Afghan Sher Shah of Sur reestablished Afghan rule in Delhi, but the Afghans only ruled for 13 years until Baburs son Humayun defeated them

So, Afghans only ruled North India for less than 85 years total.

Of course, after the Mughal collapse, some Afghans were able to conquer Kashmir and parts of Punjab but their expansion was checked by Sikhs and Marathas.


and the above is another quote posted by you roshan ...

here too ... 85 years is presented by you as a fairly short time ...

roshan
17 Aug 04,, 02:28
Vision, my first post was in the context of certain people who were claiming that the Mughals, Slaves, Ghaznavids, Ghorids and all the others were Afghans and thus Afghans ruled India for hundreds of years. Thus, 85 and 70 became "only" compared to the much larger hundreds of years.

Ray
19 Sep 04,, 20:49
The flash point where Afghanistan meets Pakistan

Barnett R. Rubin IHT
Monday, January 12, 2004

A crucial border

NEW YORK Over lunch at the loya jirga in Kabul - the recent meeting that discussed and adopted Afghanistan's new constitution - I asked a delegate from Kandahar Province, a supporter of President Hamid Karzai, whether the Taliban's resurgence there was due mainly to support from Pakistan or conditions in Afghanistan. "Without the support of Pakistan," he answered, fixing me with his gray-green eyes, "the Taliban cannot do anything." Pakistan, he said, "never wants a strong government in Afghanistan, because if we have a strong government we will reclaim our land, all the way to Gwadar" - a Pakistani Indian Ocean port.

This is one view, unsurprising in a delegate from a Pashtun area. The Pashtun ethnic group, predominant in Kandahar, not only is the largest in Afghanistan, but populates territory nearby in Pakistan, and many Afghan Pashtuns feel a unity with those lands. An opposition leader I spoke with at the loya jirga saw things differently, urging that Afghanistan's constitution "recognize the borders of the country" as they are now. As he saw it, the refusal to recognize Pashtun tribal territories as part of Pakistan had destabilized Afghanistan's South and East for decades. In principle, Karzai agreed. He knows peace and prosperity require full cooperation and recognized but open borders between Afghanistan and Pakistan. And there is hope this problem might finally be resolved as part of a regional settlement in South Asia.

Over breakfast on the second day of the loya jirga, Karzai argued that Afghanistan needed partners in Pakistan for a dialogue. Ahmed Rashid, a Pakistani journalist, added that the status of the tribal areas had become a huge question mark for Pakistan. After Sept. 11, 2001, the Pakistani Army entered the tribal areas for the first time, yet the government still assumed no responsibility for governing them. Pakistan's northwest frontier with Afghanistan, like its northeast frontier with India, where armies face each other in Kashmir, is contested and unrecognized. And these two border areas have long been dysfunctionally linked. In 1947 the nascent Pakistani Army recruited Pashtuns from both sides of the frontier to fight in Kashmir. During the 1980's the Pakistani military used the weapons and training aid intended for the Afghan mujahedeen to train a new generation of guerrillas for Kashmir. And Pakistan allowed Al Qaeda to establish itself in Afghanistan partly in return for Qaeda help in training Kashmir fighters.

Madrasas in the tribal areas trained a generation of militants from among the impoverished youth of the tribal areas, both Pakistanis and Afghan refugees. They marched off to fight in Afghanistan, Kashmir or both, and now such militants have twice nearly assassinated Pakistan's president, Pervez Musharraf.

Now forces are coming together that could finally bring about some progress on the border issues. The loya jirga consolidated the strength and legitimacy of Karzai, and it showed that Pashtuns could assert influence while accommodating other groups.

In Pakistan, Musharraf, after his close calls with assassination, has once again sent the Pakistani Army to battle extremists in the tribal territories and seems finally to have agreed to cease using extremists in Kashmir. This may be the time to push him to rein in cross-border activities by the Taliban.

Musharraf's agreement with Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee of India for a serious dialogue on Kashmir sets the stage for critical agreements. And at the recent South Asia summit meeting, leaders spoke of a need to overcome barriers to trade and investment barriers in their region as a step to joining the global economy - more reason to settle the old disputes. As the dialogue on Kashmir starts, so must a parallel effort on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border region. The United States has already supported a working-level discussion of the Afghan-Pakistan border through intelligence cooperation. This should be raised to the political level. And reconstruction aid that will accompany the deployment of security teams into the Pashtun areas of Afghanistan should be complemented with development aid for the Pashtun tribal areas of Pakistan, where for too long smuggling, drug trafficking, looting and migration have provided the only avenues to wealth.

The writer is director of studies and senior fellow at the Center on International Cooperation at New York University.

http://www.iht.com/articles/124546.html

tarek
19 Sep 04,, 21:43
Ray

Pakistan's problems are very deep and generally associated with the lack of will to "nation build" -- actually, Pakistan has been "de-evolving" from a nation state into a series of tribal associations -

Our cult of disagreement
K haled Ahmed’s A n a l y s i s

After Musharraf what?


Had the mainstream parties not been alienated the big change after 9/11 would have been managed with a soft landing. Both the PPP and the PMLN tried to break through the anti-India brainwash in the 1990s by making overtures to New Delhi, but were punished by the army with overthrows. The big change of policy initiated by General Musharraf was made difficult by the revolt of the army's traditional allies, the religious parties. They sank their differences and netted the anti-change vote in the 2002 elections as one party

For defenders of democracy in Pakistan this is a tough moment of choice mainly because the army is not doing what it should do as a rule. It is recreating the secular state while it should be defending the ideological state. It is destroying an important pillar of this ideology by banning the jihadi militias and normalising with India. And those who want the army to go back to the barracks are not sure if the political vacuum created by the exit of General Musharraf will be filled by forces helpful to the survival of the state of Pakistan

t is commonly said in Pakistan that, since the level of disagreement between the federal government and the provinces has increased, the country’s social contract may have broken down. This means that the various components of the nation state no longer wish to be together. Sub-nationalisms cropping up in the provinces demand that a new Constitution be framed to take account of the changed realities in the country. Some commentators link the destruction of the social contract to economic decline and the growing incidence of poverty in the country. While one group of challengers of the social contract may want constitutional change, another may actually need only a change of government.

The prevalence of disagreement in Pakistan is not only centre-province and inter-provincial, it is also intra-provincial. The provinces no longer think the centre is fair to them in the allocation of resources. One can’t ignore the fact that the smaller provinces view Punjab – whose representation forms over 60 percent of the National Assembly – as the enemy that dominates the state structure and deprives them of their rights. Most national schemes favoured by the federal government are also backed by Punjab but rejected by the provinces. Lastly, within the provinces too there is disagreement over governance. Where the parties have split to form the new PML mandate there is frequent quarrel over the legitimacy of the political order.

Pak army and Pak nationalism: The most prominent emblem of the federation is the Pakistan army. It has played a major role in the formulation of Pakistan’s posture to the outside world. It has used its influence to also shape the internal order of the state. Pakistan’s nationalism – particularly its identification of ‘the other’ – has given the army a central role in the determination of Pakistan’s politics. It is not easy to determine whether the Pakistan army itself shaped Pakistan’s early nationalism, but it certainly has guarded its initial manifestation as a part of its defence of the national security state. Today, a measure of the national dissension stems from a popular questioning of the role of the army.

Internal disagreement revolves around the two political parties with grassroots appeal: the Pakistan Muslim League (PMLN) and the Pakistan People’s Party (PPP). Despite repeated military rule, Pakistan became a bipartisan state with its well defined liberal and conservative poles much before India. But both parties had to pay due regard to the paramountcy of the army after the decade of General Ayub’s military governance. Since all armies tend to be rightwing, Pakistan army sided with the PML against the ‘threat’ of the PPP’s leftwing and liberal worldview. General Zia’s interregnum may have been seen Islamisation as a deliberate stratagem to secure Pakistan against the dominance of a liberal worldview.

Covert war and political alienation: In the decade of the 1990s the army kept the post-Zia politics under scrutiny through the system of ‘troika’ created by General Zia’s 8th Amendment. This is the period of the covert war in Kashmir, the rise of the army-supported jihadi militias, and the decline and fall of the national economy. It is in this period that both mainstream parties developed differences with the army high command. These differences were aired in an alternating process: when the PPP was in power, the PML ‘appealed’ to the GHQ to intervene; when the PML was in power the PPP made a similar appeal. Both parties went through a process of alienation from the army using a rhetoric that was self-contradictory. But the alienation was real rather than tactical. This logic of alienation was violated only by the alternation in power of the two parties.

General Pervez Musharraf took over in 1999 and did something that the army had never done before. He flouted the rule of alternation. Instead of removing the PMLN and bringing in the PPP, he ousted both of them from the political arena by keeping their leaders in exile. Both parties had gone through internal wear and tear in the 1990s and were vulnerable to splitting politics in varying degrees. By the very nature of the development of political parties in Pakistan, leader-less parties were not able to take the big decisions required of them by the crisis of 11 September 2001. The discord of the post 2002 order was exacerbated also by the violent rhetoric unleashed by the splitting of the mainstream parties.

Saying no to the 9/11 change: Under pressure from the UN Security Council resolution 1373, the Pakistan army has reversed its past policies. Since these policies were underpinned by over 50 years of brainwash against India and 20 years of brainwash in favour of cross-border low intensity conflict called jihad, the nation did not accept the volte face in short order. Had the mainstream parties not been alienated the big change would have been managed with a soft landing. Both the PPP and the PMLN tried to break through the anti-India brainwash in the 1990s by making overtures to New Delhi, but were punished by the army with overthrows. The big change of policy initiated by General Musharraf was made difficult by the revolt of the army’s traditional allies, the religious parties. They sank their differences and netted the anti-change vote in the 2002 elections as one party.

As result of this, Pakistan has its history’s strongest opposition in the National Assembly. In the Senate, where the provinces are represented equally, the voice of dissent and protest is even stronger. On the streets, where most people repeat the discourse learned from the nation-building process of the past, the support to the dissenting opinion is quite strong. Since all parties have always relied on religious rhetoric, the MMA has the upper hand because of its ability to reach out and touch familiar chords more authoritatively. (A PPP leader on 8 September 2004 attended a seminar in Lahore celebrating PPP’s apostatisation of the Qadianis.) Outside electoral politics, the ‘nationalists’ in Sindh and Balochistan have been emboldened by the disagreement arising in ‘indoctrinated’ Pakistan. Leftwing and anti-America in their outlook, they see their appeal dovetailing with the ambience of general disagreement more effectively than ever before.

Pak army reverses its role: The army has been felled by the stroke of 9/11. It has reversed its role and is doing things that it was inhibiting in the past. It has abandoned the Taliban and consequent Talibanisation of Pakistan that it was presiding over before 2001. It has softened its hostile approach to India and allowed a level of normalisation with it that the political parties had never thought of. It has liberalised the political system by mandating joint electorates and women’s seats through the LFO. It would have allowed the detoxing of the anti-India textbooks had the opposition and some of the PMLQ leaders not scared it off the project. The madrassas that once threatened the survival of non-theocratic governance in Pakistan were for the first time challenged by it. The religious militias that informally stole half the accoutrements of power from the PPP and the PMLN in the 1990s were banned by it.

The army is doing all these things at the behest of the world community that stood behind the UN resolution 1373. The resolution is often ignored and most people simply refer to America as the great arm-twister and accuse the army of selling out to Washington which they see as an ally of India. After fifty years of ‘flexibility’ Pakistan’s civilian population wants the country’s sovereignty back. Nawaz Sharif had gone to the United States to get the army disentangled from the Kargil Operation; he had agreed with President Clinton that he would help him capture Osama bin Laden and had allowed the establishment and training of a special force in Pakistan for this purpose. After 1999, General Musharraf asserted Pakistan’s sovereignty and disbanded the facility.

Post-Musharraf dangers: Opposing President Musharraf entails a number of dangerous consequences. As a democratic purist you want the army out of politics and back in the barracks. This means that Musharraf goes and another army chief takes over. He may be ‘secular’ but he may not go as far as Musharraf did in pursuing the ‘secular’ agenda. He may halt a very significantly different kind of normalisation with India from the one that Musharraf had begun. He might go back to mending the fences with the army’s old allies, the religious parties, and thus reinvigorate the army’s political strength within the country’s civil society. He might choose to follow rather than oppose the popular voice. He might reverse the policy on Afghanistan and become overt in his support for the Taliban on the run from the ISAF in Afghanistan.

Musharraf’s reversal of the army’s old role did one thing. It took Pakistan out of its ten years of international isolation. (This isolation was at the root of UN resolution 1373 which China did not veto. The term ‘rogue’ is another name for the maximum level of isolationism.) The ouster of Musharraf from the political system might mean a return to international isolation - regionally from India and the neighbouring Islamic states, and internationally from the important trading partners in the West. Neither the PPP nor the PMLN is in a position to take the rudder and steady the post-Musharraf listing of the ship of the state. Popular demands will be for full assertion of sovereignty in foreign and domestic policies. But a change in Afghan policy will bring about the collective reaction of Russia, Iran, the Central Asian states and Turkey, with no one siding with Pakistan and its ally, the Taliban. A re-intensification of conflict with India might force the army to permit the religious alliance to become co-regents and rule in Pakistan.

Disagreement in the form of tribalisation: President Musharraf’s economic achievement is dismissed by practically everyone in Pakistan as a 9/11 fallout although foreign critics see it as a positive development after a decade of near-default in Pakistan. The trend in favour of tribal societies in Balochistan and the NWFP has fostered tribalisation of the mind in settled areas too. Panchayats and jirgas are convening in Punjab and Sindh to by-pass the state institutions. Tribal societies are based on the device of disagreement as a legitimising mechanism as much as the elements of ‘asabiyya’ (cohesion). In this atmosphere it is almost impossible to inculcate a public attitude of national self-interest at the cost of mostly theoretical claims on sovereignty. It is usually the job of the politician to give a popular spin to anti-sovereignty policies. The politician has been forced out of this role to challenge Musharraf and demand sovereignty at all cost.

For defenders of democracy in Pakistan this is a tough moment of choice mainly because the army is not doing what it should do as a rule. It is recreating the secular state while it should be defending the ideological state under threat from all directions. It is destroying an important pillar of this ideology by banning the jihadi militias and normalising with India. And those who want the army to go back to the barracks - for the first time with a national anti-army consensus - are not sure if the political vacuum created by the exit of General Musharraf will be filled by forces helpful to the survival of the state of Pakistan."

Ray
19 Sep 04,, 22:02
Tarek,

As far as nation build is concerned, Ayub Kahn was the first who tried, Zia Islamified and if there is any chance of nation build, Musharraf is the only man.

I maybe wrong, but that is my belief.

Please add the link of this article.

tarek
19 Sep 04,, 22:44
I agree with that, especxially about Musharaf and nation building - but there is the problem of a basic consensus about Pakistan that is missing - this is a huge threat - the article I presented was long but it's worth reading

Ray
20 Sep 04,, 07:50
I agree with that, especxially about Musharaf and nation building - but there is the problem of a basic consensus about Pakistan that is missing - this is a huge threat - the article I presented was long but it's worth reading

Tarek,

I have saved the article since it was a very good resume.

However, without a link, no one will beleive a word.

Please be a sport and post a link.

tarek
20 Sep 04,, 16:58
Ray

You and I cannot hope to make anybody believe anything they are not inclined towards. The Author Khalid Ahmed writes for "The Daily Times" and "The Friday Times" - I article I posted appears in this weeks' edition of "The Friday Times" and you may access it at www.thefridaytimes.com -- now U may have to register and if u do not apply immediately, there is a chance that the article will not be available until the archive sytem is up and running.

Who will believe and who will not, is not, ought not be, our problem, but that of the individual reader. :)

Officer of Engineers
20 Sep 04,, 17:19
Gentlemen, date and the newspaper name is usually enough for verification purposes.

Ray
20 Sep 04,, 19:01
Tarek,

Thanks for the link.

Ray
20 Sep 04,, 19:10
Tarek,

Thanks for the link.

I don't have Jinnah's speech to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan (which Aryan posted) but if Musharraf does bring in a secular stae, even with the Islamic Republic stuff, it will be a great thing.

Let me tell you about the sea change Vajpayee and Musharraf has done. India lost to Pakistan in the cricket match two days ago. Did I see the lament that would be natural a few days back? NO. Most said the better team won and Yohanna was the toast of the town. They said that Ganguli was 'Gone Gogglied'! We can make fun at our expense as I am sure the Pakistans can.

Let's all contribute to better relationship and thing will slowly come into place.

Jay
20 Sep 04,, 19:39
Ray Sahab,
I dont see it coming any soon. Did you see the way Pakistan reacted for UNSC expansion. The same Pakistan asked us to let them in to ARF and they want us to let them thro ASEAN.

Ray
20 Sep 04,, 20:20
Ray Sahab,
I dont see it coming any soon. Did you see the way Pakistan reacted for UNSC expansion. The same Pakistan asked us to let them in to ARF and they want us to let them thro ASEAN.

Having seen enough of hatred and bloodshed in this game of oneupmanship, I have hope.

Jay,

Even though I maybe a military man, I have roamed the villages of Kashmir incognito. I can speak the language to some extent mostly broken(which I learnt on my own).

Notwithstanding what is the popular opinion bandied by all, the Kashmiris couldn't care less. They are least indoctrinated in the religion.

Now see their plight. The terrrorist would shoot them if they don't accept what the terrorists are saying or wanting. Indian 'abuses' can always be aired to the Western Press, Indian pinkos or Human Rights Commission. If you were in their place, which is the better option?

I allowed a dreaded terrorist to visit Keer Bhavani temple on the Kashmiris' special day. I visited it too. There were scores of Moslems; in fact, they were the vast majority!

It reminded me of Lawrence's statement in his book 'Vale oif Kashmir':


I attribute much of the delightful tolerance which exists between the followers of the two religions (Hindus and Moslems) chiefly to the fact tht the Kashmiri Mussalman never gave up the old religion of the country

Or, what the Sufi Saint Shah Gafoor wrote:

[I]Yut itz zanmas kenh chhuna larun,
Dharnai dharun Soham su,
Bashar travith gachhi Issar garun,
Isharus saiti roz sapdak, Ishar sapdith yi sharir marun,
Dharnai dharun Soham su,
Dabh chi Avtar zah lagina tahrum,
Meh zan prazlan naran chum,
Ram Ram barun gau nam sandarum,
Dharnai dharun....Sohum so

Translated it means:

Birth avails us nothing. Mditate therefore upon Soham, the Eyternal. Foregetting age seek Ishvara. Keep close to Ishvara to realise Him. Onve you ahve aschieved Ishvara, tnhis mortal be got rid of. Mediate upon the Eternal. There are ten incarnations of God. One should never be nervous. Narrayana dazzles like the moon. Peatition of the name of Rama leads to one's salvation. Meditate upon the Eternal. (Sir Walter Lawrence, Vale of Kashmir Page 274.

No matter who howls, that is what it is.

I don't take Kashniris are rabid terrorists. It is outsiders and some paid agents like Geelani (he was a jsut a lowly paid primary school techer. Just see his mansion today. Where did he get the money?). If the Kahmiris wree rabid, then it would have been Iraq long back. It is the Kashmiris whoa alerted the Indian Army in 1965 and Kargil of the infiltrations etc.

Likewise, Maharaja Gulab Singh tried his best to ensure Kashmiri Hindus did not eat food prepared by the Moslems. he failed! The Kashmiris still don't eat beef!

I love and admire them. They are the, as per me, the real soul of India.

tarek
20 Sep 04,, 20:36
Jay


It does not do to be as emotional as you seem to be inclined to be, when discussing policy and interests of nation states. Like many others you seem to get a nut at every real and imagined slight. It's not healthy, perhaps a more sober approach, while not as satisfying, may refllect reality more accurately.

Ray
20 Sep 04,, 21:04
Jay,

I know you are not emotional or not even handed.

Let's hope all will be well.

I know it will not come too soon.

Hope springs eternal in the human Breast.

ajaybhutani
20 Sep 04,, 21:20
Sorry for going of the topic i jsut wanted to express my views

With the rapidly growing economy and evthin well i dont think any sane indian even a politicial will want a war with PAK.In fact every indian and most prob pakistani wants good relations between india and PAK.Frnkly at least educated indians should maintain their stand of peace and not hate the pakistanis.If evone thinks like Y should we let PAK enter ASEAN .. dude at least one side has to take teh first step.If we take 2 steps towards peace the other side has to take one to save its face. Evone needs good relations with the international community. Even US dsnt like making strong enemies.
We should be more otimistic about it rather than returning what they do to us.
Definitely Terrorism should be dealt with strongly and i think indian army is doing a better job day by day..its clearly visible frmt rapid decrease in cross border instrusions this year.

Lets make a good beginning.Our future generations need enmity and not war.

Jay
20 Sep 04,, 21:21
Tarek,
No I'm not emotional. India and Pakistan has so much gone down for the last 50 odd years. Though we know peace can bring its own dividents, the majority of the people on boh sides are still not convinced about each other.

For instance, the main reason for PM Manmohan's trip to USA (UN) is to press India's inclusion in to UNSC. He was also supposed to meet Pakistani President Musharaff. Now, when a Pakistani minister says that they'll fight tooth and nail and oppose India in UNSC, I dont know how cordial the meeting is gonna be.

It simply doesnt add together, on one hand they oppose us tooth and nail in an international forum, on the other hand they want us to allow them in to a powerful regional forum.

Ray Sahab,
As usual, you ended with a nice poem. Although its intresting to note that a sufi saint sang about Eshwar and Rama. I do know that Kashmiris were by large peacuful before 1989. Its the imprted ones that did much damage by religionizing Kashmiris and their cause.

ajaybhutani
20 Sep 04,, 21:52
Tarek,
No I'm not emotional. India and Pakistan has so much gone down for the last 50 odd years. Though we know peace can bring its own dividents, the majority of the people on boh sides are still not convinced about each other.

For instance, the main reason for PM Manmohan's trip to USA (UN) is to press India's inclusion in to UNSC. He was also supposed to meet Pakistani President Musharaff. Now, when a Pakistani minister says that they'll fight tooth and nail and oppose India in UNSC, I dont know how cordial the meeting is gonna be.

It simply doesnt add together, on one hand they oppose us tooth and nail in an international forum, on the other hand they want us to allow them in to a powerful regional forum.

Ray Sahab,
As usual, you ended with a nice poem. Although its intresting to note that a sufi saint sang about Eshwar and Rama. I do know that Kashmiris were by large peacuful before 1989. Its the imprted ones that did much damage by religionizing Kashmiris and their cause.


i hope our PM talks about the deal .. where PAK supports letting us enter UNSC. and we let them in the regional forums.But i sincerely feel pakistan is not strong nough to affect our entrance into the UNSC.If the chineese say yes.( since even many in chineese strong positions do suppport increased indian role in UN. and so on..).Pak is definitely out of a big ally. And yes They couldnt even get their F16s they paid for how the hell are they gonna influence Us about indian entrance in UNSC. the americans always think about themselves
Clearly they cant really affect our admission into UNSC. for a permanent seat.
so at least indians can rest down and relax its all in our hands and so its up to us wether we show a good gesture by allowing them into ASEAN etc. or keep the enmity intact.

And yes i dont think PAK President can be so blunt to mention that they will oppose in out PMs face teh indian UNSc claim as then they can never ask indians to let them in regional forums and expect the request to be met.They really have very limited options.

tarek
20 Sep 04,, 22:10
Jay

Please be serious, UNSC membership has not accrued to any member because they or their leadership "Pressed" for it in a single session. Pakistan and Indian, along with the kashmiri (who rightfully curse the both of us) are party to a territorial conflict - a conflict that is being pursued with arms, and with acts of terror, to add spice, the two counties involved are nuclear powers and have displayed the maturity of teenagers.

You really imagine that any Pakistani government could support Indian UNSC membership and veto rights, while out standing armed conflict and conflicting territorial claims abound, while there remains unnegotiated the range and depth of access to economy, remains unnegotiated the leagl frame work to serve as foundation??

Negotiations are not surrender or national interests, they are a furtherance of those interests -- Indian UNSC membership, OK, does that mean India would like support of Pakistan? If yes, how does it propose to define and win this support? Has it proposed a larger security concorde of which the Pakistan is public is ignorant of?

You need to get real and give the matter some thought - Just as UNSC membership is not some legacy, neither was the case that a "veto" in ARF and ASEAN existed - all policy options are designed to accrue a range of benefits, ofcourse in changing strategic dimensions, some policy options no longer accrue "positive" dividends.

ajaybhutani
20 Sep 04,, 22:38
Jay

Please be serious, UNSC membership has not accrued to any member because they or their leadership "Pressed" for it in a single session. Pakistan and Indian, along with the kashmiri (who rightfully curse the both of us) are party to a territorial conflict - a conflict that is being pursued with arms, and with acts of terror, to add spice, the two counties involved are nuclear powers and have displayed the maturity of teenagers.

You really imagine that any Pakistani government could support Indian UNSC membership and veto rights, while out standing armed conflict and conflicting territorial claims abound, while there remains unnegotiated the range and depth of access to economy, remains unnegotiated the leagl frame work to serve as foundation??

Negotiations are not surrender or national interests, they are a furtherance of those interests -- Indian UNSC membership, OK, does that mean India would like support of Pakistan? If yes, how does it propose to define and win this support? Has it proposed a larger security concorde of which the Pakistan is public is ignorant of?

You need to get real and give the matter some thought - Just as UNSC membership is not some legacy, neither was the case that a "veto" in ARF and ASEAN existed - all policy options are designed to accrue a range of benefits, ofcourse in changing strategic dimensions, some policy options no longer accrue "positive" dividends.


U r rite But how much can the pakistani effort effect our chances.Tehy cant influence the AMEricans to get their F16s The chineese consider pak as a distraction they created for india .They surely wont listen to pak for supporting / opposing indian claim.

Thats what i meant and that deal for PAK support was just a joke .. LOL..though i would realy appreciate if our relations go good nough that pak supports our claim..

wont it be good.

And as far as Legacy of UNSC is conserned Chineese are threatening Taiwan for decades now and they still hold their seat.. Welcome to the new world .It dsnt run completely on ethics power plays a big role.Look at Americans they didnt need UN support for IRAQ.Or better though they created it. Yes all policy options are designed to give more benefits they normally give mor benefit to the more powerful party. Thats the way the world works.Its an old saying in my native language hindi.
"jiski laathi uski bhais"

i.e. he who has the (bamboo) stick in his hand owns teh buffalo.(as he can hit her and thus control her).

Ray
20 Sep 04,, 23:52
Tarek,

A Pakistan govt can pres for India's membership.

But the 'awam' back home will not let it last another day.

Kasuri in an interview to the Doordarshan said so in very guarded words.

tarek
21 Sep 04,, 00:08
"They surely wont listen to pak for supporting / opposing indian claim."
Then why get bent out of shape over this ?? :)

"Chineese are threatening Taiwan for decades now and they still hold their seat.. Welcome to the new world .It dsnt run completely on ethics power plays a big role."

Nothing new world about this - now Chinese are not involved in any armed hostility, nor were they involved when UNSC membership was granted, and you seem to have forgotten the "One China" statements thqat continue to mark Chinese good behaviour.

Listen, no need to to be emotional, UNSC membership is not Pakistan's to give or not give - Mr. Blair's statement is there for all to see, he supports India in the UNSC and "as the years pass" the case for india will grow stronger.

I don't know why some choose to deal with this issue arrogantly - You gotta give to get - this is a crude way of saying that there has to be a general concord between India and it's neighbors and it is not in the interests of anybody to allow the "years pass" - it little feeling and a lot more thinking, that what is required.

Ray - under the present circumstances, certainly -- what is the rush suddenly, the talks have yielded, well, not much, when the talks actaully do present movement, actually do begin to fully represent HOPE, I think the people on all sides of the border will be very quick to point out the advantages -- a lot of work remains to be done - A India on the UNSC that can look out for core Pakistani interests and a pakistan that can ensure the obstacles to the develoment of Indian trade and security continue to attenuate, well, sure - lets talk about it, lets see what we can work out, the issue of kashmir needs to be dealt with such that the satisfactiuon of the kashmir is paramount, after all, we all want ot avoid "local nationalism" from continuing to mar the march of great nations.

ajaybhutani
21 Sep 04,, 00:23
"They surely wont listen to pak for supporting / opposing indian claim."
Then why get bent out of shape over this ?? :)

"Chineese are threatening Taiwan for decades now and they still hold their seat.. Welcome to the new world .It dsnt run completely on ethics power plays a big role."

Nothing new world about this - now Chinese are not involved in any armed hostility, nor were they involved when UNSC membership was granted, and you seem to have forgotten the "One China" statements thqat continue to mark Chinese good behaviour.

Listen, no need to to be emotional, UNSC membership is not Pakistan's to give or not give - Mr. Blair's statement is there for all to see, he supports India in the UNSC and "as the years pass" the case for india will grow stronger.

I don't know why some choose to deal with this issue arrogantly - You gotta give to get - this is a crude way of saying that there has to be a general concord between India and it's neighbors and it is not in the interests of anybody to allow the "years pass" - it little feeling and a lot more thinking, that what is required.

Ray - under the present circumstances, certainly -- what is the rush suddenly, the talks have yielded, well, not much, when the talks actaully do present movement, actually do begin to fully represent HOPE, I think the people on all sides of the border will be very quick to point out the advantages -- a lot of work remains to be done - A India on the UNSC that can look out for core Pakistani interests and a pakistan that can ensure the obstacles to the develoment of Indian trade and security continue to attenuate, well, sure - lets talk about it, lets see what we can work out, the issue of kashmir needs to be dealt with such that the satisfactiuon of the kashmir is paramount, after all, we all want ot avoid "local nationalism" from continuing to mar the march of great nations.


well said.

Georgie
23 Mar 09,, 11:09
I hear all this nonsense about Afghan invincability, the simple truth is, is it really worth the cost of life in controlling this poor piece of real estate. Has anyone seen the disproportunate casualities suffered by the Afghans v Soviets. The Soviets crumbled from within not from without. The current crop of Taliban is good at killing soft targets. When faced with modern Western military he is good at hiding, particularly among civillians.