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Fury
17 Jul 04,, 04:17
My opinion=JATIMATIC :biggrin: :biggrin: No seriously, Bizon is the best or atleast the coolest looking :) http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg08-e.htm
Lets see if that link works, incase it doesn't here is some specs for the Bizon
Caliber: 9x18mm PM and PMM; 7,62x25mm Tokarev; 9x19mm Luger / Parabellum
Weight: 2.1 kg w/o magazine
Length: 425 / 660 mm (buttstock folded / open)
Barrel length: ?? mm
Rate of fire: 600 - 700 rounds per minute
Magazine capacity: 64 rounds ( 9 mm); 45 rounds (7.62mm)
Effective range: 100 - 200 meters, depending on ammunition used

And here is for Jatimatic
Caliber: 9x19mm Luger/Parabellum
Weight: 1.65 kg empty
Length: 400 mm
Barrel lenght:
Rate of fire: 650 round per minute
Magazine capacity: 20 or 40 rounds

Anyone else?

Bill
17 Jul 04,, 09:14
HK MP-10.

It's not even close.

eMGee
20 Jul 04,, 14:23
I like the latest Пистолет-Пулемет Бизон (Bizon SMG) incarnation. It's featured in one of these demonstration videos from the ИЖМАШ (IZHMASH) small arms division:

http://club.guns.ru/images/video/izhmash1.avi
http://club.guns.ru/images/video/izhmash2.avi
http://club.guns.ru/images/video/izhmash3.avi
(* I think it was either the second or third, but they're all nice. *)


Bizon SMG in operation (Spetsnaz):

http://club.guns.ru/images/video/bizon.rm

lemontree
22 Nov 04,, 07:26
Just wanted to reactivate the thread.

Would'nt the Bizon be a little in accurate with the hellical magazine under the barrel? Would'nt it the rounds tend to hit low?

Terran empire
22 Nov 04,, 13:07
UMP http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg16-e.htm
9mm .45acp .40sw all the advantages of the MP5 plus light weight polymer construction and site compatibility

Fury
22 Nov 04,, 15:09
Would'nt the Bizon be a little in accurate with the hellical magazine under the barrel? Would'nt it the rounds tend to hit low?

I don't know, you tell me :)

Submachineguns aren't meant for superb accuracy anyway.

Terran empire
22 Nov 04,, 15:41
Military SMG's are used in close quarters combat Accuracy is not all ways needed but from what i hear the MP5 is the most accurate but don't Quote me on that

Hawk_eye
22 Nov 04,, 19:05
Well since we only use the Aug's and HK Mp5 series, i will always go for the MP5, however they are some amazing smg's out there.

Bill
22 Nov 04,, 20:40
The HK SMGs are extremely accurate within their designed range limitations.

You CAN quote me on that. ;)

Franco Lolan
22 Nov 04,, 23:33
did you have one? get to use it in combat?

Franco Lolan
22 Nov 04,, 23:33
did you have one? you were a sniper, so were you forced to use it in combat?

Bill
23 Nov 04,, 06:57
I was familiarized with almost every NATO/WP issued small arms weapon in service during the late 1980s as part of my unit training.

That includes a myriad of HK weapons. Off the top of my head that list includes the HK91, 94, MP-5, P7, and P9. I've also trained on the FN FAL SLR, SA-80, AUG, FA MAS, AK-47, AKM, AKMS, AK-47, RPD, RPK, blah, blah, blah.

My issue weapons were the M-21, and the M1911A1. They are the only arms i've ever carried into comabt.

lemontree
23 Nov 04,, 08:07
The HK SMGs are extremely accurate within their designed range limitations.

You CAN quote me on that. ;)

I agree on that. In fact that was the 'accuracy' I was referring to about the Bizon. SMGs too need to be accurate especially when they are used in operations like 'hostage rescue'. Undoughtedly, the HK MP5 is the best today. But the Uzi has seen its hay day too, its a flip from an earlier Czech SMG.

jame$thegreat
25 Nov 04,, 00:35
I was familiarized with almost every NATO/WP issued small arms weapon in service during the late 1980s as part of my unit training.

That includes a myriad of HK weapons. Off the top of my head that list includes the HK91, 94, MP-5, P7, and P9. I've also trained on the FN FAL SLR, SA-80, AUG, FA MAS, AK-47, AKM, AKMS, AK-47, RPD, RPK, blah, blah, blah.

My issue weapons were the M-21, and the M1911A1. They are the only arms i've ever carried into comabt.


I must say I agree that the HK91 is a very useful and effective wepon even in todays fast pased firearms market

The Chap
25 Nov 04,, 02:19
MP4/5 and the sadly neglected R4. The latter being the most reliable firearm mankind has ever created. Really. And it's more accurate than the AK series as well as having a marginally higher fire rate.

I love it, so it must be good. :biggrin:

lemontree
25 Nov 04,, 06:48
Has anyone fired the HK MP7? How does it compare to the MP5?
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/_/viewer.aspx?path=9/96/&name=Mp7.jpg

Fury
26 Nov 04,, 13:11
Even more interesting is the Calico smg, it features somewhat similar helical magazine that the bizon has.
Calico submachinegun (http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg57-e.htm)
Any thoughts about that?

Franco Lolan
26 Nov 04,, 18:03
100 rd mag, nice. saturation fire

lemontree
27 Nov 04,, 07:30
The Calico looks bloody cool. :cool: It looks ideal for guys in VIP protection detail, tank crews and pilots.

Bill
27 Nov 04,, 11:06
Calico is a piece of junk guys. Friend of mine had one.

Real jammomatic. They're legal for civilian sale in the US.

PaulG
27 Nov 04,, 12:33
Don't know if anyone has seen this or if i have the info correct, it was along time ago when i saw it, barely in my teens.

Anyway it was on one of those 'inventors' type shows. This bloke was dabbling with a .22LR SMG with a overhead lay down mounted drum mag with several hundred rounds.

Although it is obviously a undersized round for the purpose of the weapon the thing fired so fast, with zilch recoil, that the slugs followed near enough the same path very close to each other. I dont remember the rate of fire but basically they were so close that it magnified the hitting power of the slugs. It did a good job on a solide concrete block, the type used in inner walls.

Interesting concept i thought.

lemontree
30 Nov 04,, 07:35
Calico is a piece of junk guys. Friend of mine had one.

Real jammomatic. They're legal for civilian sale in the US.

Sniper
Where did the problem exist? In the feed mechanism or ejection?

Bill
30 Nov 04,, 12:25
It had a lot of feed issues, especially with hollowpoints.

leib10
23 Mar 05,, 17:59
MP5. No contest.

Bill
23 Mar 05,, 18:01
MP-10 no contest. ;)

leib10
23 Mar 05,, 18:07
My friend is a former SWAT team officer. He says that in full auto, the MP-10 rises far too much. In 9mm, the stopping power may be less, but full auto controllability is far better.

Bill
23 Mar 05,, 18:11
My opinion of full auto fire is pretty well known here i think.

leib10
23 Mar 05,, 18:14
Let me guess: a waste? I concur, except at very short ranges.

Bill
23 Mar 05,, 18:39
Exactly.

leib10
23 Mar 05,, 18:54
I have a full-auto AK74, and have fired many full-autos over the years. It is extremely difficult to hit a 1 foot by 1 foot target at ranges over 100 yards with any consistency. I would rather score one hit than scare the hell out of the enemy with extravagant bursts that do nothing.

sniperdude411
23 Mar 05,, 21:59
Same. That's why the 7.63 is far better than 5.56. Oh well, wrong thread.
Anyways, my favorite is the p90. A bit expensive I'm sure, but less than the mp5, and it looks to me that the p90 has little muzzle climb because of the location of the barrel. And I like the high capacity and controllability.

FlyingCaddy
24 Mar 05,, 23:11
The best is the MP-5, the coolest looking the MAC10.

I wouldnt say extravagant burst but dont you say some sort of a burst may be useful, if for no other reason that suppression. Maybe 3 shots at a time???
Wasnt one fo main reasons for the SMG and at Assault Rifle is to go ballistic at pissing distance? I mean the BAR, the Thompson, the SturmGewher were all influences by the need to kill lots of poeple at close distances, something the Bolt action and even the semi automatic rifle could not do, either efficently or cheaply.
Look at the grease gun, it has slow the rate of fire so it could be controlled much easier when in full auto

If Im wrong someone please correct me.

sniperdude411
25 Mar 05,, 00:09
The mp5 is the best, but also the most expensive.
For overall goodness, the ump is great, also the p90 is great too.

BenRoethig
25 Mar 05,, 05:42
For overall coolness, you'll never beat the Thompson model 1928. For effectiveness, I'll go with the UMP .45.

Bill
25 Mar 05,, 06:28
The M-3 grease gun is among the biggest POS weapons ever devised.

No, i don't favor the use of full auto(with the exception of machine guns) for anything but suppression fire. At close range semi-auto fire is just as effective as full auto, and at longer ranges semi-auto fire is far more effective than full auto.

sniperdude411
25 Mar 05,, 14:49
Don't know if anyone has seen this or if i have the info correct, it was along time ago when i saw it, barely in my teens.

Anyway it was on one of those 'inventors' type shows. This bloke was dabbling with a .22LR SMG with a overhead lay down mounted drum mag with several hundred rounds.

Although it is obviously a undersized round for the purpose of the weapon the thing fired so fast, with zilch recoil, that the slugs followed near enough the same path very close to each other. I dont remember the rate of fire but basically they were so close that it magnified the hitting power of the slugs. It did a good job on a solide concrete block, the type used in inner walls.

Interesting concept i thought.

I'mm not very sure about .22LR, but the hollow-point .22 WMR (CCIs are great) would definitely be a better round. Still no felt recoil, but much farther range. I've killed a goose at about 150 yards in one shot. They also penetrate kevlar (said by some army cadets at Bass Pro Shops), and they have the same capacity as the .22LR.
Also, I've been shot by a .22LR (thankfully in the leg), I was on the ground, but it actually wasn't horribly painful or traumatic.

Also, the M-3 was called the grease gun for a reason.

leib10
25 Mar 05,, 16:28
Yes, it's strange, but .22's have a better chance at penetrating Kevlar than many other bullets do. That's because it has very low mass and is traveling relatively fast for a bullet its size. My friend, the former SWAT officer, said he'd rather be hit with a .45 than a .22.

Bill
25 Mar 05,, 16:32
Yeah?

What else did he tell ya?

leib10
25 Mar 05,, 16:35
He said that .22's are only effective if the officer is not wearing a trauma plate. Otherwise, they are easily stopped.

Bill
25 Mar 05,, 16:49
So he claims a .22LR will penetrate a Class IIIA(without class IV trauma plate) vest such as police officers wear?

leib10
25 Mar 05,, 17:02
No, but it will penetrate Level IIA without trauma plate. Even so, it won't do a terribly large amount of damage once inside the body, but it will almost certainly not go through the body.

Bill
25 Mar 05,, 17:15
Level IIA will stop up to 9mm Parabellum.

.22LR will not penetrate Class IIA armor.

Trust me.

Your friend is either messing with you, or he's a clueless idiot. Sorry man.

leib10
25 Mar 05,, 17:20
Probably the former. ;) He dicks with me a lot.

Beaugeste93
26 Mar 05,, 06:07
Sterling MK4. It actually beats out the MP5 in every category except sexiness in objective testing.

leib10
26 Mar 05,, 06:18
Then why does nearly every police force and counterterrorist organization favor the MP5?

Terran empire
26 Mar 05,, 07:16
Then why does nearly every police force and counterterrorist organization favor the MP5?
Because the Sterling Dates back to world war 2? and lacks some of the options.

leib10
26 Mar 05,, 16:00
Bingo. They must see something in the MP5 that they don't in the Sterling.

Bill
26 Mar 05,, 17:00
Hmmm, i know a few folks in HM forces that have told me the Sterling is a worthless piece of junk.

Go figure...

Terran empire
26 Mar 05,, 17:47
Hmmm, i know a few folks in HM forces that have told me the Sterling is a worthless piece of junk.

Go figure...
first i was Wrong. I confused the Sterling with the Sten the original was Developed by sterling In 1940 but entered British army use in 1953.

I think i read that the Sterling had some trouble because the British Royal Ordinance tried to Get a way with stealing the Gun from the Sterling arms Company and when they did so they tossed out a lot of the quality and innovations the result was that the Royal OD versions were crap the ROD cut corners by using Carbon steel pins which rusted. the Rod tightened the Chamber when the 9-mm ammo was still WW2 Era when 9-mm rounds were still not of universalized scale witch caused some problems. Eventually Royal Ordinance Bought Sterling.

Beaugeste93
26 Mar 05,, 19:49
Hmmm, i know a few folks in HM forces that have told me the Sterling is a worthless piece of junk.

Go figure...


Like terran empire says above, the problems were with Royal Ordinance illegally producing the gun without a license and using inferior grade materials. Sterling-made guns are outstanding.

sniperdude411
26 Mar 05,, 20:15
Level IIA will stop up to 9mm Parabellum.

.22LR will not penetrate Class IIA armor.

Trust me.

Your friend is either messing with you, or he's a clueless idiot. Sorry man.

I meant the .22 WMR, not the .22LR. Sorry if I was confusing.

Beaugeste93
27 Mar 05,, 06:08
Then why does nearly every police force and counterterrorist organization favor the MP5?


My guess would be that the horizontal mag is more cumbersome in a SWAT or CQB "stack".

MP5's are excellent, you can't say anything bad about them (except for what they cost to individuals :eek: )

leib10
27 Mar 05,, 06:11
Yes, they are disturbingly expensive to civie's. I'd rather steal one from a cop than buy one. lol

Bill
27 Mar 05,, 09:00
"I meant the .22 WMR, not the .22LR. Sorry if I was confusing."

I don't think so.
(read that as 'no, the .22wmr will not penetrate a IIA vest)

Beaugeste93
27 Mar 05,, 18:09
Yes, they are disturbingly expensive to civie's. I'd rather steal one from a cop than buy one. lol


I am a cop and don't know where to steal one :mad:


They didn't have these on my police motorcycle :frown:

leib10
27 Mar 05,, 18:14
Every patrol car has an MP5 in the trunk in my city. We have A LOT of narcotraficantes (drug dealers) in my city, most of them armed.

ChrisF202
27 Mar 05,, 18:48
Then why does nearly every police force and counterterrorist organization favor the MP5?
Dont the US Capitol Police use the G36 in their SWAT team? I seem to have read something about that in a newspaper article.

leib10
27 Mar 05,, 19:18
Yes, I've seen them myself when I visited the capital a few years ago.

Beaugeste93
27 Mar 05,, 23:25
Then why does nearly every police force and counterterrorist organization favor the MP5?

There's actually another argument there. Many SWAT team are getting rid of subguns in favor of AR's and similar "compact" assault rifles. MNPD SWAT now uses a mix of AR's and SIG 551s. They are finding that a lot of .223 ammo penetrates less than handgun caliber rounds indoors.

I'd like to see VVV post her gear (if she's allowed to).

lemontree
28 Mar 05,, 07:40
Sterling MK4. It actually beats out the MP5 in every category except sexiness in objective testing.
Its the most unsafe weapon. It has a nasty habit of not firing when you want it to spray lead.
Some have benifitted from it though. My coursemate's cousin received a gallantry award due to the Sterling. He as in a search mission in a sugar cane field, and came face to face with 3 terrorists. He squeesed the trigger of his carbine (as he was brave enough to keep it cocked), and nothing happened, in a split second he grabbed the terrorist's AK-56 turned the barrel towards the enemy and sprayed away. All 3 terrorists were killed.

ChrisF202
28 Mar 05,, 14:56
Its the most unsafe weapon. It has a nasty habit of not firing when you want it to spray lead.
Some have benifitted from it though. My coursemate's cousin received a gallantry award due to the Sterling. He as in a search mission in a sugar cane field, and came face to face with 3 terrorists. He squeesed the trigger of his carbine (as he was brave enough to keep it cocked), and nothing happened, in a split second he grabbed the terrorist's AK-56 turned the barrel towards the enemy and sprayed away. All 3 terrorists were killed.
Dont the Indian and Pakistani Police still carry the Sterling and other WW2 era weapons? Ive seen Pakistani pararmilitary police with Lee Enfields on CNN. Also, are Indian police issued pistols? Ive never seen one carry any weapons other then a SMG/rifle and/or a bamboo stick.

What do the Armed Response Units in the UK police forces carry?

lemontree
28 Mar 05,, 17:46
Dont the Indian and Pakistani Police still carry the Sterling and other WW2 era weapons? Ive seen Pakistani pararmilitary police with Lee Enfields on CNN. Also, are Indian police issued pistols? Ive never seen one carry any weapons other then a SMG/rifle and/or a bamboo stick.

What do the Armed Response Units in the UK police forces carry?
The Sterling is not available in Pakistani Police services. However, the Sterling is still part of Indian army and police inventory. The pistol/revolver is not issued to ranks below Sub-inspector in the Indian police services. They follow an out dated British era norm for weapons allotments. But this not so with the criminal and anti-terrorists teams they have their share of pistols and auto rifles.
The Indian Police has constabulary battalions that are under command of their respective states, these units are generally issued with Lee Enfields. They are last on the piority list for moderisation as they don't really require automatic weapons since they are mainly used for crowd control where batons and trenchons are more of the norm than auto rifles, and yes the grenade launcher for tear gas shells.

ChrisF202
28 Mar 05,, 18:02
The Sterling is not available in Pakistani Police services. However, the Sterling is still part of Indian army and police inventory. The pistol/revolver is not issued to ranks below Sub-inspector in the Indian police services. They follow an out dated British era norm for weapons allotments. But this not so with the criminal and anti-terrorists teams they have their share of pistols and auto rifles.
The Indian Police has constabulary battalions that are under command of their respective states, these units are generally issued with Lee Enfields. They are last on the piority list for moderisation as they don't really require automatic weapons since they are mainly used for crowd control where batons and trenchons are more of the norm than auto rifles, and yes the grenade launcher for tear gas shells.
Thanks for the input. Does India have a single national police force or does each city/state have their own police?

TopHatter
29 Mar 05,, 02:59
Sterling MK4. It actually beats out the MP5 in every category except sexiness in objective testing.

For whatever faults it has, I'm rather fond of the Sterling for several reasons, not the least of which is it's the first (and only) full-auto arm that I've fired.
And also if you put lots of metal plates and gizmos on them, the Sterling makes an excellent laser gun for Imperial Stormtroopers :biggrin: :biggrin:

lemontree
29 Mar 05,, 07:25
Thanks for the input. Does India have a single national police force or does each city/state have their own police?
Indian Police has both state and national police forces, which are as follows:-
National Police forces under union govt
1. Border Security Force (BSF)(duties are border security and para-military in nature and officered by police officers).
2. Indo Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) (duties are border security and para-military in nature and officered by police officers).
3. Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF)(duties are internal security).
4. Central Industrial Security Force (CISF)(duties are security of Industrial complexes of national importance).
5. Railway Protection Force (RPF)(for protection of railway property and passengers).
6. Defence Security Corps (DSC)(for protection of ordinance factories and comprises manily re-employed ex-servicemen).
State Police under state govts
1. State Armed Police - these are akin to CRPF battalions but serve in respective states.
2. State Police - these carry out the actual police work of catching criminals, with their various departments.

Here is a link for your reference:-
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Police/Links.html

lemontree
29 Mar 05,, 07:27
Tophatter,
The picture of the Sterling posted by you looks like a Star Wars movie prop. It does not have the breech block and the cocking handle is some how welded to the body.

Terran empire
29 Mar 05,, 12:00
Tophatter,
The picture of the Sterling posted by you looks like a Star Wars movie prop. It does not have the breech block and the cocking handle is some how welded to the body.
that is because it is an Imperial laser gun Prop they modified the sterling for the original movie.

leib10
29 Mar 05,, 14:47
I think they also used an MG34 and I know for sure they used a Mauser Broomhandle.

Bill
29 Mar 05,, 14:56
Yep, Han Solo used a modified broomhandle, and the imperial troops carried modified MG34s.

Terran empire
29 Mar 05,, 16:08
yup the Empire Never had a real Assault rifle they jumped right too MG's which is Kinda big for Issue as standard infantry weapons. Meh.

TopHatter
30 Mar 05,, 17:51
Yep, Han Solo used a modified broomhandle, and the imperial troops carried modified MG34s.

Don't forget Princess Leia's modified Walther P-38 in Return of the Jedi....and I just hijacked the thread :mad:

Beaugeste93
30 Mar 05,, 18:24
Don't forget Princess Leia's modified Walther P-38 in Return of the Jedi....and I just hijacked the thread :mad:


Since the thread is hijacked...

The jawas used a modified Lee-Enfield to capture R2D2

Appropos of nothing, does Samuel L Jacksons lightsaber have "Bad M-F- er" on it? :biggrin:

Bill
30 Mar 05,, 18:38
Lol!

TopHatter
30 Mar 05,, 18:54
Since the thread is hijacked...

The jawas used a modified Lee-Enfield to capture R2D2

Appropos of nothing, does Samuel L Jacksons lightsaber have "Bad M-F- er" on it? :biggrin:

Yes, I believe he does :biggrin:

Boba Fett's rifle a modified Webley & Scott No. 1 Mark I flare gun with a stock and other oddments added to it.

Also of interest, the Rebel troops carried a rifle based on the MP44 Sturmgewehr during the Hoth scenes in The Empire Strikes Back

sniperdude411
31 Mar 05,, 13:06
I can't believe I never noticed all those guns on Star Wars.
Shame on me.

TopHatter
31 Mar 05,, 13:36
I can't believe I never noticed all those guns on Star Wars.
Shame on me.

We've barely scratched the surface. :)
Just Google Star Wars Prop Guns and you'll find probably half a dozen sites devoted to the subject

sniperdude411
03 Apr 05,, 13:04
crud. Some people have too much time on their hands.

TopHatter
03 Apr 05,, 18:22
crud. Some people have too much time on their hands.

You seem to be fond of saying that.
Everybody has a hobby or interest, and they tend to make time for them.

sniperdude411
04 Apr 05,, 18:14
I guess so; myself have way too much time on my hands, but don't know what to do with it.
Any cheap suggestions?

TopHatter
04 Apr 05,, 18:34
I guess so; myself have way too much time on my hands, but don't know what to do with it.
Any cheap suggestions?

All depends on what you like to do.

AutopilotOFF
05 Apr 05,, 02:32
I guess so; myself have way too much time on my hands, but don't know what to do with it.
Any cheap suggestions?

Do you have $50 and a car?

Edit: My favourite submachine gun would have to be almost any modern mp5 variant. The mp5n, mp5sd5 and the mp5/10 are tops.

sniperdude411
05 Apr 05,, 02:38
Maybe... If it doesn't involve anything majorly blunly opposing the law and/ or extremely destructive.
$50 I do have, bu not much more than that. I like to buy ammo for my airsoft guns.

AutopilotOFF
05 Apr 05,, 02:43
Maybe... If it doesn't involve anything majorly blunly opposing the law and/ or extremely destructive.
$50 I do have, bu not much more than that. I like to buy ammo for my airsoft guns.

Ok... walk to the red light district. :biggrin:

TopHatter
05 Apr 05,, 06:03
Ok... walk to the red light district. :biggrin:

LOL. Great suggestion, but probably a bad idea from a long-term point of view :biggrin:

sniperdude411
06 Apr 05,, 21:47
Great suggestion (not!)... If I was older. But don't worry, I go to a public school, so I hear much more graphic things over there.

I'm a good (maybe) Christian person.