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View Full Version : KIDD Class upgrades you would like to see.



Captain C
23 Aug 03,, 21:24
What upgrades in radars and other systems would you like to see done to the Kidd Class before their transfer to Taiwan?????

rickusn
23 Aug 03,, 23:59
Well I would like to see them operate 2 helos like their near sisters in the Tico and Spruance classes. I would also like to see VLS and the AEGIS system. But this would not only be expensive it would also not be politcally palatable. Although some kind of uprgrade for helo ops should be feasible.

I think their radars and sonar will be reconstituted with much the same capability as when decommissioned. Its a shame but anything else will send costs through the roof I suspect.

Ironduke
24 Aug 03,, 04:55
Is Taiwan due to receive any other naval ships from the US in the near future?

bigross86
24 Aug 03,, 09:34
What helicopters does the Kidd carry?

rickusn
24 Aug 03,, 12:23
Just the Kidds are going to Taiwan in the near future.

The Kidds carried one SH-2F LAMPS I helo(like the first two Tico) until those helos were retired from USN service in 1994. But the hanger apparently is large enough for two SH-60 LAMPS III helos and RAST was being added in the mid 1990s. Whether the LAMPS III electronic fit (SQQ-28 Helo data link)was ever installed I dont know.

Homer
24 Aug 03,, 13:26
I think a TLAM capability would make things interesting.

bigross86
24 Aug 03,, 18:13
I think one Blackhawk and one Apache-D is pretty cool

Bill
24 Aug 03,, 22:02
TLAM, that would fill the only void in the Kidd's weapons fit.

I'm sure a quad ABL or two could be squeezed onto the ship somewhere.

But again, politicly, it's HIGHLY unlikely.

bigross86
24 Aug 03,, 23:03
Why? I though the US supported Taiwan.

Captain C
25 Aug 03,, 05:20
The US supports Taiwan but they have always limited the weaponry to "Defensive" weapons only. That's why Taiwan doesn't have F-15's and never had F-4's. The Taiwanese military has a supersonic ASM cruise missile with a 90 mile range and is probably working on indigenous longer range missiles for land strike.

The Helos kept on board should be of an ASW nature. The Apache sounds good, but what does it really do for the ship? Nothing that would support it's mission. I would like to see another terminal guidance radar added so they can do a better AAW job. Not complaining about what they do already, just would like to see it better. I don't know if they can fire ASROC out of a Harpoon style launcher, but if so, I would prefer they store their ASROC's that way to free up space in the missile magazine for more SM2's. I would definitely want SeaRam instead of Phalanx. If the sonar's can be upgraded, go for it, albeit I think the OHP's will be the ASW workhorses with some secondary air defense capability. The Kidd's role will be the reverse responsibility; it will be to provide fleet area air defense and ASW support as a secondary role. Her helos will probably be coordinated by the OHPs. IMHO, of course

I think Taiwan is building some more OHP's under license, don't know how many they are going to build though…..

:G

bigross86
25 Aug 03,, 10:21
The Apaches can salvo 16 Hellfires at a ship. If that doesn't trash a good amount of the ship, it will at least knock out the defenses and radars. After that go for a couple runs with the 30mm and enjoy.

Stinger
25 Aug 03,, 14:40
range restrictions on the hellfires, would likely put an Apache well inside the ships kill area.

bigross86
25 Aug 03,, 16:22
Not if there's a laser designator on the ship and there is LOS

Bill
25 Aug 03,, 17:46
Apache's would get slaughtered trying to engage any modern warship with anything more than point missile defenses.

And the Hellfires probably wouldn't get through anyway.

bigross86
26 Aug 03,, 10:21
Hey, I'm allowed to dream, no?

Stinger
26 Aug 03,, 12:41
no

bigross86
26 Aug 03,, 12:56
Huh? Where did that one come from? Why am I not allowed to dream? If you saw some of the things I dream of you'd wish you could dream like me!

geminif4u
06 Mar 09,, 17:16
Well I would like to see them operate 2 helos like their near sisters in the Tico and Spruance classes. I would also like to see VLS and the AEGIS system. But this would not only be expensive it would also not be politcally palatable. Although some kind of uprgrade for helo ops should be feasible.
I think their radars and sonar will be reconstituted with much the same capability as when decommissioned. Its a shame but anything else will send costs through the roof I suspect.

First, there is normally operated but a single helo onboard - either a Taiwanese S-70C(M)-1 Thunderhawk (commercial version adaptation of S-60B) with APS-128PC radar - of which Taiwan has 19 in service. The ships can also operate small MD-500, which carry a nose surface search radar and one Mk.46 Mod.2 LW ASW torpedo. These operate from the Navy's "Knox" class frigates.

Several efforts to obtain surplus USN SH-2Fs have failed and are not in the pending budget priorities at the moment.

The reason the "Kidd" DDs only operate one helo under normal circumstances is the lack of storage space of the helicopter hangar design -
over the years, the amount of maintenance stuff accumulated continues to grown for persistent helicopter operations. The ships, while equal in size to a WW Two anti-aircraft light cruiser (and handle much like one), there is never enough space on modern warship designs for long endurance cruises (though this is rarely a problem with Taiwan's ships, due to normal operating areas being relatively close to the island or into the northern South China Sea and northward into the East China Sea / Okinawa island's chain).

Even with the USN, by the last decade of their service, only on SH-60 was routinely onboard.

Hope this clarifies issue.

geminif4u
06 Mar 09,, 17:33
I think a TLAM capability would make things interesting.

Taiwan has two anti-ship missiles systems suited for use onboard the "Kidd" DDG - Hsiung Feng II and still-in-development Hsiung Feng III SSM.

Both were developed by the Chung Shang Institute (CSIST) organization and the Hsiung Feng II is roughly a counter-part to early-Harpoon; electronically, something between the RGM-84A and more sophisticated RGM-84C versions.
Same situation with US-type FFG-7 (Cheung Kung) FFGs.

Taiwan was sold recently another batch of the RGM-84L - plus transfer of the "Kidd" class ships. Essentially and export version of the 'C' model.

While Taiwan has continued to procure Harpoon SSM for its ships, largely because they are compatible with Kidd class twin-rail Mk.28 launchers.

"Hsiung Feng II" are used onboard new "La Fayette" (project Kuang Hua II)
low-observable frigates obtained from DCN of France, in the mid-to-late-90s.

Bigger Hsiung Feng III, with its strap-on boosters, would have to be accommodated in external launchers, or as most likely, coastal defense site locations on the island. At least in the beginning.

Taiwan does not yet have a suitable naval TLAM under development, but Hsiung Feng III is the nearest thing to it that has been flight tested. Given the improved links with Beijing regime, Taipei is politically unlikely to make a go-forward decision to develop a TLAM - though Beijing has not taken the political decision to remove any of its growing and modernizing force of tactical ballistic missiles across Fujian and other provinces that could be used in a war against Taiwan. At least they have initiated improved trade and commercial direct air flights between the two. 'Small steps' can be important.

BenRoethig
06 Mar 09,, 18:09
I think one Blackhawk and one Apache-D is pretty cool

US Army Apaches are nor navalized nor do they have folding blades.

geminif4u
06 Mar 09,, 19:22
US Army Apaches are nor navalized nor do they have folding blades.

Apache's live in the desert only....(if you get the drift). No folding blades
for naval DDG/CG use - unsafe generally; however, small number could be accommodate onboard larger amphibious assault ships (LHA, LHD) classes.
No need, however, when the Navy already has armed SH-60s onboard.

Former-McDonnell Douglas did once propose a naval variant AH-64, based on the C-model. But, not enough interest in the Nineties. Since, several of the ideas of arming a AH-64 have now been incorporated into the SH-60-series Seahawks.

On the Korean peninsula, some US-based Army AH-64C/D Apache pilots are trained for night operations against seaborne infiltration craft (SILC) that North Korea operates and would fly coastal surveillance and interdiction missions - as long as their bases remained secure - to interdict NKA Special Purpose Forces (SPF) assigned offensive missions along the South Korean coast.

Those helos would be using Hellfire of course. Given the AH-64s defensive systems, it is likely they would survive fairly well. Most of the small craft would have either SA-7b Grail or newer SA-13 or SA-18 shoulder-fired SAMs for self-defense, but their electronic parameters are well known and should be fairly easily defeated until Hellfire AGM engagement can be achieved.

The greatest threat is probably from the multitude of potential SR-SAM launchers found within a group of infiltration, high-speed (Nampo LCPL, etc) small craft - overwhelming the AH-64 defensive system is probably the best offensive action the KPA could achieve in this case.

Dreadnought
06 Mar 09,, 19:36
You should see them on manuvers sometimes....about 10 feet off the water surface "drifting backwards" in eschelon along the the banks. Very impressive.:)

biteasaur
09 Mar 09,, 15:08
i would love to see a apache ripple fire hell/fires at a small frigate of an opposing navy to see the damage,if heavy or minimul.im not wishing for war,just sounds interesting,like in close quarters in the straights of hormuz.or whatevever its called near iran.

Skywatcher
09 Mar 09,, 20:43
Hellfires can do quite a bit of damage (most of the damage would be from unused rocket fuel and like). However, the frigate would have a pretty good chance of shooting down the Apache first (especially if you're talking about something like the 054A).

Stan
09 Mar 09,, 22:27
The UK have put the Apache to sea.

gunnut
09 Mar 09,, 23:58
Kidd could really use some VLSs like the Sprucans. Maybe 48 cells on each end?

BenRoethig
10 Mar 09,, 00:01
The UK have put the Apache to sea.

The WAH-64 is a bit different from the U.S. longbow. One of the changes was manually folding blades for use on ships. US Army Apaches do not have this.

Master Chief
10 Mar 09,, 20:19
Kidd could really use some VLSs like the Sprucans. Maybe 48 cells on each end?

That would be great, then control could be handed over to the aegis ship.