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Major_Armstrong
02 Jul 04,, 17:10
Thousands of imbeciles protest the war in Iraq around the world and don't bother to find out any details about why it happened. They just think war is bad and call Bush a Nazi even if Kerry and all the Democrats voted for the war, too.

Check out what some of these Iraqi-Americans are saying about Iraq and Saddam Hussein:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june03/iraqi_3-18.html

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2003/n03282003_200303288.html

Bush meets with Iraqi-Americans: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/04/images/20030428-3_d042803-515h.html

Confed999
02 Jul 04,, 17:40
Liberals don't care about the Iraqis, they've made that abundantly clear.

Jenorozec
09 Jul 04,, 18:22
You call people who protest war in Iraq imbecils... maybe some of them are. But what do you know about Iraq? I think you know only America. Few interviews in TV or newspaper is not relevant. All (or 90%) Iraqi people hate America.

And details about why it happened? Enlighten me... What is just reason for the war?

I think only agression. This war was not necessary. America or other country was not threatened. You may say: Saddam is bad, Iraqi people was not free, Iraq was not democracy like America, world is now better... but it is not reason for war. Anybody may say: Bush is bad - he starts the war, America is bad - because of pain of death, consumption of sources... or whatever. Is it reason for the war? NO!

Can you show me one relevant reason for the war?

ChrisF202
09 Jul 04,, 18:51
You call people who protest war in Iraq imbecils... maybe some of them are. But what do you know about Iraq? I think you know only America. Few interviews in TV or newspaper is not relevant. All (or 90%) Iraqi people hate America.

And details about why it happened? Enlighten me... What is just reason for the war?

I think only agression. This war was not necessary. America or other country was not threatened. You may say: Saddam is bad, Iraqi people was not free, Iraq was not democracy like America, world is now better... but it is not reason for war. Anybody may say: Bush is bad - he starts the war, America is bad - because of pain of death, consumption of sources... or whatever. Is it reason for the war? NO!

Can you show me one relevant reason for the war?
uggh, you people sicken me. Saddam was an EVIL DICTATOR WHO KILLED ALMOST A MILLION PEOPLE. That is genocide - a crime against humanity which the UN chose to ignore. Who is going to enforce the law and keep the peace if we werent going to? If you commit a crime you do the time. Had we done nothing there would be a mass murderer on the loose.

Jenorozec
09 Jul 04,, 19:14
Don't be sick from me. I am not American... so I must have a different opinion.

What? Million people? Do you believe it?
Who say that he killed milion people? Your George? Probably it includes Iraqi wars with Iran and Kuwait. In first case Saddam was your ally and in second case your bombers killed this people.

I do not admire Saddam, but I respect international law.

By the way: Turkey bombarded Kurdish people like Saddam, but only Saddam is bad?

ChrisF202
09 Jul 04,, 19:38
I do not admire Saddam, but I respect internalional law
If you respected international law then you would respect the removing of Saddam as he violated international law. Dont tell me those mass graves dont exist.

Se7eN
09 Jul 04,, 19:58
You call people who protest war in Iraq imbecils... maybe some of them are. But what do you know about Iraq? I think you know only America. Few interviews in TV or newspaper is not relevant. All (or 90%) Iraqi people hate America.

And details about why it happened? Enlighten me... What is just reason for the war?

I think only agression. This war was not necessary. America or other country was not threatened. You may say: Saddam is bad, Iraqi people was not free, Iraq was not democracy like America, world is now better... but it is not reason for war. Anybody may say: Bush is bad - he starts the war, America is bad - because of pain of death, consumption of sources... or whatever. Is it reason for the war? NO!

Can you show me one relevant reason for the war?

WW2, Korea, Veitnam and Kosovo to name a few well-known conflicts in which the United States has openly put their troops in harms way, for the well-being of other Human beings.

Add Iraq to that list. Why is it that the majority of Human aid, in the form of monetary and military support, has come from the US?

Because we care about Human beings, regardless of what country they hail from. The US is a representation of the worlds cultures all bundled up in the form of a free, democratic society.

Once the rest of the world catches on, maybe Human beings will actually pull together and get shit done. Until then, people like you can keep being selfish and forget that eventually it's going to come around to you, where it directly affects you.

Until then, let the US stand and fight the good fight. At least try to give some support.

Jenorozec
09 Jul 04,, 20:21
International law didn't violate Saddam but IRAQ as a country and was punished by UN in 1991.

Say how Iraq violated international law in 2003...

Yes mass graves exist in every country hit by war. It is too difficult bury all people in single graves when iraqian or iranian soldier or american bomber kill too many people in one day :)
And I don't believe that million people were buried in one or several mass grave.

You Americans watch TV too much. You believe that you act in accordance with God and the others act in accordance with devil, so you haven't to respect international law.

Jenorozec
09 Jul 04,, 20:32
WW2, Korea, Veitnam and Kosovo to name a few well-known conflicts in which the United States has openly put their troops in harms way, for the well-being of other Human beings.
Add Iraq to that list. Why is it that the majority of Human aid, in the form of monetary and military support, has come from the US?

Because we care about Human beings, regardless of what country they hail from. The US is a representation of the worlds cultures all bundled up in the form of a free, democratic society.

Once the rest of the world catches on, maybe Human beings will actually pull together and get shit done. Until then, people like you can keep being selfish and forget that eventually it's going to come around to you, where it directly affects you.

Until then, let the US stand and fight the good fight. At least try to give some support.

So human rights is answer? If some country is different you can change its government and kill people who live there?
O.K. By this logic if I disagree with pain of death in legal system and I think it is violate of human rights I can attack USA?

Jenorozec
09 Jul 04,, 20:44
The US is a representation of the worlds cultures all bundled up in the form of a free, democratic society

Europe is on higher level than USA - culturally.

Lunatock
09 Jul 04,, 21:40
Europe is on higher level than USA - culturally.

Been to France lately?

They banned religious symbols from being worn in public.

Anti-Semitism is practically endorsed.

And the french government is negotiating with Hezzbollah and giving them leway when it comes to television programs, if not whole channels.

Then there's the annual smear campaign and rule changing in the Tour De France that the press & TDF commitee do to make it harder for Lance Armstrong to win. Despite the fact most of the spectators, French or not root for him.

Confed999
09 Jul 04,, 22:32
All (or 90%) Iraqi people hate America.
You're going to have to show me stats to prove that one. The men and women returning from Iraq are telling the opposite story. The Iraqi Americans returning from rebuilding are telling a different story. So who told you your story? Anyway, America is all about their, and your, right to hate whoever you want, as long as you don't hurt anyone in any way.

What is just reason for the war?
You only want one? He broke the cease-fire agreement ending the Gulf War. By "international law" any country in the original coalition could have removed Saddam. This doesn't even start into the support of terrorism, including his own terrorist forces, the firing of missles and guns at aircraft enforcing UN sanctions, constant public threats, etc., etc., etc.. Note: I haven't even started into my reasons for supporting the removal of Saddam.

This war was not necessary.
Would you want to live the way they were? How many have to die before you think war is necessary? What if America hadn't felt the cold war was necessary, eh comrade?

You may say: Saddam is bad, Iraqi people was not free
Ok, Saddam is bad and the Iraqi people weren't free.

democracy like America
Your lack of knowledge about America, is aparent to a blind and deaf child.

but it is not reason for war.
How much do you need? How many have to die?

Anybody may say: Bush is bad - he starts the war
They can say it, but that doesn't make it true. Saddam started the war, as I have allready shown.

Who say that he killed milion people?
The UN put it at 1 to 2 million dead in Saddam's rule, with "thousands" more a month. Liberal groups like UNICEF put the figures at 5000+ more a month. Though, no country, I've seen, disputes this.

In first case Saddam was your ally
Yes, do you think that makes it ok then? Are you excusing his crimes because most of the world was allied to him at one time or another?

in second case your bombers killed this people.
Saddam could have withdrawn from Kuwait, but didn't. He killed his own people, he gave the orders, not an American.

I respect international law.
No you dont. You just use the idea of international law to spread anti-American propaganda. Want to prove that statement wrong? Then quote the law that was broken, and it's source, section and subsection.

By the way: Turkey bombarded Kurdish people like Saddam, but only Saddam is bad?
But they are yielding to international pressure, slowly but it's happening none the less. Saddam was utterly defiant.

in one or several mass grave.
Last count I heard was over 3000, with more everyday.

You Americans watch TV too much. You believe that you act in accordance with God and the others act in accordance with devil
Again, your lack of knowledge about America, is aparent to a blind and deaf child.

O.K. By this logic if I disagree with pain of death in legal system and I think it is violate of human rights I can attack USA?
In the immortal words of my great leader, "bring it on".

Europe is on higher level than USA - culturally.
Born in Europe, lived in Europe, been to Europe, will be going to Europe, and I can tell you without a doubt that statement is not even a little bit correct. You may be able to argue same, but never ever higher.

Ray
10 Jul 04,, 03:08
I don't think that any country is free from the stigma of human rights violation. Or, any country is a total adherent of international law.

War itself is an act against humanity. Most try to observe the basic values of decency, but some go bonkers. Every country that has gone to war has some blots that sully the image.

Law, they say, is an ass. International law must be a bigger ass. If we talk of international law then Israel would have to agree to the recent ruling of the International Court that the wall must be pulled down being illegal. Try making Israel agree to that!

In short, the sword is mightier than the pen and Might is indeed Right and that is the international truth, if not the law.

Ray
10 Jul 04,, 03:20
As far as Iraqi Americans saying good things that folks want to hear, do you think they have any other options? Yes, they have. The nearest tree!

One should not go gaga over such stuff. Some would be sincere in what they are saying and some saying it out of fear. I saw the brother of the US Marine, who was said to have been beheaded by some silly Islamic organisation or the other that keeps coming out of the woodwork, giving a statement on TV. The man was sullen and scared, but not so scared as to not wear his skullcap!

Praxus
10 Jul 04,, 03:50
O.K. By this logic if I disagree with pain of death in legal system and I think it is violate of human rights I can attack USA?

That's morally equating the initiator of force with the person/people using the retalitory use thereof.


So human rights is answer? If some country is different you can change its government and kill people who live there?

Are you saying morality is subjective?

I would love to get into a debate about this with you.

Jenorozec
10 Jul 04,, 11:45
I came here improve my English, but long dispute in your language is too strenuous for me. I canít reply every your sentence. So I answer in few points.

Loving or hating America in moslem world

Do you really thing that America is welcome in Iraq? Your people (US soldiers, American workers or emigrants) say what your media want. All this poeple support war. Simple Iraqians and Arabian media say something different. Watch Al Jazeera! Do you thing that Iraqians love you after bombarding or abasing and tormenting in prison? Iraqian rebels (people who you call terorists) fighting guerilla war and guerilla must have support of citizens to hiding and attacking occupation forces.

Mass graves

You say million people, I have read only 300 000. I love this numbers of "free" organisations. Who unearth that bodies? One million/365 days after invasion means 2700 corpses every day. Where are those squads digging whole Iraq? It is inprobable. They have simple made estimation.
But what is important: Iraq led war agains Iran for eight years so in Iraq must be mass graves. In WWII was our country liberate by soviet army and many Russian or German soldiers was buried in mass graves so as American soldiers in France. They were exumed and sepultured into single graves after war is ended. But nobody knows names of this soldiers.

Reason for war

Only reason is American hegemony. Ofcourse that Bush must excuse the war. So it was created weapons of mass destruction and support of terorism. But where are those weapons? Why Saddam did not use it?
Did you read charter of UN? Read articles 33-51. There are two reasons for war in accordance with international law. Resolution of Security Council or self defence (article 51). None of two conditions was fulfil.
Anyway you show your viewpoint using "the immortal words" of your "great" leader... bring it on. You say attack who can. It is exactly what America do. No law, only force is important for you.

Europa and America.

I thing economically we are equal. You have better army and science. But culturally you are back up. Look at your criminality or social and enviromental law. You are aslo bloodthirsty and religious zealots. How many atheists you have?
Yes I have lack of knowledge about America, but I have sufficient knowledge about world and world is more than America.

Jenorozec
10 Jul 04,, 13:09
Been to France lately?

They banned religious symbols from being worn in public.

Anti-Semitism is practically endorsed.

And the french government is negotiating with Hezzbollah and giving them leway when it comes to television programs, if not whole channels.

Then there's the annual smear campaign and rule changing in the Tour De France that the press & TDF commitee do to make it harder for Lance Armstrong to win. Despite the fact most of the spectators, French or not root for him.

I know that school act. It's prohibite religious symbols at schools, not in public. You can wear scarf walking down the street. French schools are secular so any catholic, moslem or Jew cantít propague his religion. I donít see preblem, but ultimatelly this act is rarity in Europe.

Calumniation of race or nation is prohibited through entire Europe including France. I donít thing there is greater anti-semitism in France than anti-islamism in USA.

If there is a conflict in middle east, it is fair listening both sides... why you donít want to listen to Palestinians or Libanon organisations? By the way first terorists in Palestina were Jews.

I donít watch Tour De France. But I saw last Olimpic games in USA. It was demonstration of American propaganda. You made a muck of sport. It was not celebration of sport but celebration of America.

Lunatock
10 Jul 04,, 13:36
I know that school act. It's prohibite religious symbols at schools, not in public. You can wear scarf walking down the street. French schools are secular so any catholic, moslem or Jew cantít propague his religion. I donít see preblem, but ultimatelly this act is rarity in Europe.

Calumniation of race or nation is prohibited through entire Europe including France. I donít thing there is greater anti-semitism in France than anti-islamism in USA.

If there is a conflict in middle east, it is fair listening both sides... why you donít want to listen to Palestinians or Libanon organisations? By the way first terorists in Palestina were Jews.

I donít watch Tour De France. But I saw last Olimpic games in USA. It was demonstration of American propaganda. You made a muck of sport. It was not celebration of sport but celebration of America.

Still a big load of BS. Especially for Muslima's wearing Hijab and Sikh's wearing Turbans, which aren't supposed to be taken off.

Oh absolutley. Nobody beats American in anti-anything behavior.

We got tired of "listening" to the Pali & Lebanese organistations because they refuse to have any peace agreement of any kind but would rather keep the war going until one side or the other is wiped out.

Oh..we didn't mean to offend you by having some pride n our country. The Americans here have pride in our country as well. We making a muck of this board???

And finally. Let's put this too a vote...Jenorozec is just another Troll? I've heard nicer things said about America by Muqtada Al-Sadr.

Confed999
10 Jul 04,, 14:55
but long dispute in your language is too strenuous for me.
Then you're wasting you own time, your points have been shown to be wrong, and you can't even understand it.

Do you really thing that America is welcome in Iraq?
I don't think anyone has said that, we just don't believe 90% of Iraqis hate poeple because of where they are from.

Watch Al Jazeera!
Ahhhh, the root of your problem, watch more than terrorist propaganda sources.

You say million people,
No, the UN says so, over 30 years. Imagine, 1 person of every 5 in your country gone. Saddam also caused 4+ million refugees. There are 1 million reported missing. This is true stuff, argue if you want, but you're the only one who claims it's untrue.

Reason for war

Only reason is American hegemony.
So you are saying he didn't break the cease-fire ending the Gulf war? Are you saying he wasn't in breach of UNSCR 678, or 687 or 1441 or one of the 9 others? Where have you been for the last decade? Did you just learn about Iraq a year and a half ago?

Resolution of Security Council
Got that repeatedly, over a 12 year period. The war in Iraq was 100% legal, anytime 15 days after Saddam was found in breach of the cease-fire.

You say attack who can.
No I didn't, you can't understand English.

I thing economically we are equal.
Nope, much of Europe is depressed by our standards.

Look at your criminality
You mean less crime is worse? Sure there is a bit more violent crime, but here it is in decline, there it is increasing. There are more thefts by population in Europe than the US.

social... law.
From our law of the land "all men are created equal". Do better than that anywhere.

enviromental law.
We're signed onto the same enviornmental agreements your country has, and more. I bet our local emission laws are about the same as yours.

You are aslo bloodthirsty and religious zealots.
You're a biggoted little fella, aren't you, comrad? What religon do you think I am?

How many atheists you have?
About 10% of our population, your country is only 9.7% Atheist, so I guess you guys are the religous zealots, huh?

Yes I have lack of knowledge about America, but I have sufficient knowledge about world and world is more than America.
You don't know anything about anywhere. Heck, I've taught you things about your own country today.

Confed999
10 Jul 04,, 14:56
Jenorozec is just another Troll?
My vote is yes.

Aryan
10 Jul 04,, 17:55
Do you really thing that America is welcome in Iraq? Your people (US soldiers, American workers or emigrants) say what your media want. All this poeple support war. Simple Iraqians and Arabian media say something different. Watch Al Jazeera!

I don't think any nation would tolerate the prolonged presence of foreign troops in their country (look at your Slovakia), but given the choice between the US troops and Saddam and his fedayeen, I'm sure they'd pick US any day of the week. And you have to stop watching Al Jazeera, its bad for your brain.


Do you thing that Iraqians love you after bombarding or abasing and tormenting in prison? Iraqian rebels (people who you call terorists) fighting guerilla war and guerilla must have support of citizens to hiding and attacking occupation forces.

Torture in prisons is pretty standard procedure throughout the arab world, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Algeria etc, so it shouldn't bother them too much. About the terrorists you call rebels, they have been involved with kidnapping and torturing innocent civilians, including most recently a Pakistani citizen. If ordinary "Iraqians" support them (which I doubt) then I'd support a full nuclear blanket bombing of non-Kurdish Iraq.


You say million people, I have read only 300 000. I love this numbers of "free" organisations. Who unearth that bodies? One million/365 days after invasion means 2700 corpses every day. Where are those squads digging whole Iraq? It is inprobable. They have simple made estimation.

So you are basically denying Saddam was a mass murderer?


But what is important: Iraq led war agains Iran for eight years so in Iraq must be mass graves. In WWII was our country liberate by soviet army and many Russian or German soldiers was buried in mass graves so as American soldiers in France. They were exumed and sepultured into single graves after war is ended. But nobody knows names of this soldiers.

Mass graves are usually created after genocide or to bury the war dead of the opposition. I doubt Iraq would bury its own war dead when it could use them as martyrs for PR purposes. Look what evil Iran did to our innocent civilians. They did the same with babies that died due to the sanctions.


Only reason is American hegemony. Ofcourse that Bush must excuse the war. So it was created weapons of mass destruction and support of terorism. But where are those weapons? Why Saddam did not use it?

What hegemony? If America wanted to, they could ban arabic and make Iraq another state. But they want to create a stable democracy there, and get out ASAP.


Did you read charter of UN? Read articles 33-51. There are two reasons for war in accordance with international law. Resolution of Security Council or self defence (article 51). None of two conditions was fulfil.

A pre-emptive attack can be classed as self defence. If someone points a knife at you, are you going to wait until he stabs you before you do something about it?



But culturally you are back up. Look at your criminality or social and enviromental
law. You are aslo bloodthirsty and religious zealots. How many atheists you have?
I agree on that (somewhat). Religion plays a far bigger part in America than Europe.

Confed999
10 Jul 04,, 17:59
Nice post Aryan.

Religion plays a far bigger part in America than Europe.
Sure, but that doesn't make us blood thirsty religous zealots.

bodybag
10 Jul 04,, 18:07
Been to France lately?

They banned religious symbols from being worn in public.

Anti-Semitism is practically endorsed.

And the french government is negotiating with Hezzbollah and giving them leway when it comes to television programs, if not whole channels.

Then there's the annual smear campaign and rule changing in the Tour De France that the press & TDF commitee do to make it harder for Lance Armstrong to win. Despite the fact most of the spectators, French or not root for him.
Hey ,I have been to france recently have you been??100% sure not.beaucase what you just wrote is biggest pile of shit I have ever read.REALY.

Confed999
10 Jul 04,, 18:27
Hey ,I have been to france recently have you been??100% sure not.beaucase what you just wrote is biggest pile of shit I have ever read.REALY.
So religious symbols weren't banned? An Article was posted on this board describing the judgement saying they were. There isn't anti-Semitism in France? Seems the French have been saying it's a problem around Paris, and other places, synagogues have been defaced and fire bombed. Anti-Semitism is a problem in most places, sadly it's really bad through much of Europe. Why else would they have sent their Jews to the Middle East, instead of providing safe haven in Europe.

bodybag
10 Jul 04,, 18:57
So religious symbols weren't banned? An Article was posted on this board describing the judgement saying they were. There isn't anti-Semitism in France? Seems the French have been saying it's a problem around Paris, and other places, synagogues have been defaced and fire bombed. Anti-Semitism is a problem in most places, sadly it's really bad through much of Europe. Why else would they have sent their Jews to the Middle East, instead of providing safe haven in Europe.
If it were up to me I woul ban all relligions,not only symbols. :)
Anti semitism exist in the USA too .

ChrisF202
10 Jul 04,, 19:24
Hey ,I have been to france recently have you been??100% sure not.beaucase what you just wrote is biggest pile of shit I have ever read.REALY.
Do you live under a rock? Anti Jewish stuff occurs in the US, yes, but not on the level it does in France and other European countries.

Praxus
10 Jul 04,, 20:30
If it were up to me I woul ban all relligions,not only symbols.
Anti semitism exist in the USA too .

I may be an atheist but if you did ban all regligions, I would be well within my rights to hang you.

bodybag
10 Jul 04,, 20:51
I may be an atheist but if you did ban all regligions, I would be well within my rights to hang you.
Yes and vice versa

Confed999
11 Jul 04,, 02:18
If it were up to me I woul ban all relligions,not only symbols. :)
Anti semitism exist in the USA too .
Then you are a tyrant wannabe. I also said anti-Semitism was a problem everywhere, read my post again.

Confed999
11 Jul 04,, 02:20
Yes and vice versa
You don't have the right to take others rights away from them.

Se7eN
11 Jul 04,, 04:04
You asked:


Can you show me one relevant reason for the war?

Because war would actually lower the total casualties caused by the regime? I know it's a strange paradox, kill to keep people from being killed, but if it saves thousands of lives, is it justified?

I say yes. You would say no? Nice logic.

Check this (http://www.scaryjohnkerry.com/wmd.htm) out.

Forget WMD. It's important to note that Hussein was trying hard to continue to develop weapons and launching platforms. Several times defying sanctions.

Saddam was revered for standing up in defiance to the mighty UN/United States. We took him from powerful figure to bearded loser climbing out of a dirty hole and getting probed by medical personel.

Now he's on trial. I'm going to assume that alot of martyism has turned inwards on itself and become fear. This is a good thing, in my opinion; and thus my reasoning for supporting this war.

Praxus
11 Jul 04,, 04:30
Yes and vice versa

That makes no logical sense what so ever.

Well what else should I except from someone who dedicates his life to irrational bull shit.

Jenorozec
11 Jul 04,, 13:55
Why do you call me comrade? It makes you feel better?

I donít waste my time, I improve my English. I donít hope I convince you because of your patriotism. You never say America made mistake... or American culture is not perfect. You learnt it in school, you watched it in TV so you believe in America.

Yes your are right, I donít understand some sentences clearly.
Explain me what did you say:

I said: So human rights is answer? If some country is different you can change its government and kill people who live there?
O.K. By this logic if I disagree with pain of death in legal system and I think it is violate of human rights I can attack USA?

You said: In the immortal words of my great leader, "bring it on".

I think you said try it. (Attack if you can) Am I wrong?



So you are saying he didn't break the cease-fire ending the Gulf war? Are you saying he wasn't in breach of UNSCR 678, or 687 or 1441 or one of the 9 others? Where have you been for the last decade? Did you just learn about Iraq a year and a half ago?

Ofcourse that I am interested in world events more than one year although you are probably older than me. Yes Americans claimed that Iraqi radar stations monitoring their aircrafts, but Iraqians claimed too... you attacked (reportedly) civilian targets or attacked soldiers in central Iraq outside of non-flight zones. Who say true? You were de facto made an exercise area for your army in Iraq. And breach of resolutions... What exactly do you mean? Inspectors? Prohibited weapons? Iraq protested that your inspectors spying. However nearly before invasion inspectors could search any place in Iraq. So Americans must made up a new problem. Iraqians had to show where the weapons are. They had to show something what does not exist! If they do not bring prohibited weapons to US army they were break resolution, said your politicians and lawyers. I saw the dispute in UN and how C. Powell argued. They showed vehicles (only computer reconstruction and simulation not real photos) and presented it as mobil laboratories for chemical weapons. He said there are tons! dry-saltery of military usage in Iraq. This tons he converted in spoons to show how it is dangerous and how many times can Saddam kill Americans. You created what you want! So as rockets of over 150 km radius. At the beginnig of invasion Iraqians fired out missiles against your camps, but you were closer then 150 km from Iraqian border. Bush measured distance from Baghdad and preseted it as broken of resolution. After few days, when analysis of bits and pieces of missiles were made, it was proved missiles were of allowed radius, but you had a new lie. Etc., etc... All your arguments are not reason for war but guise for war.



much of Europe is depressed by our standards... you mean less crime is worse? Sure there is a bit more violent crime, but here it is in decline, there it is increasing. There are more thefts by population in Europe than the US... we're signed onto the same enviornmental agreements your country has, and more. I bet our local emission laws are about the same as yours... about 10% of our population, your country is only 9.7% Atheist, so I guess you guys are the religous zealots, huh?

Economic.

Yes eastern Europe (incuding my country) is depresed by your standards because of revolution. I meant EU to where my country entered.

Criminality.

Read American Exceptionalism by Seymour Martin Lipset. You have hight crime and your prisons are full. You have several times more prisoners per citizen than Europe. You are in same or similar level as Russia in this statistic.

Environment

Well local emission laws may be same (I have doubt) but you devastate global environment. Why you didnít sign Kyoto protocol?

Religious

Oh... you read Encarta and you know my country! Statistics are deceptive. Yes in last great count in 2001 (every ten years all people fill up a forms besides usual methods of recieving datas for statistics- do you have something similar?) only 9-10% (9,7 is number from 1991 but there are no great changes) of people reported without any religious. But despite of this fact we are different. People (in Slovakia) who call themselves catholic donít visit the church (lot of them), they donít build so many new churches as you, they donít believe that God created Earth in seven days, they prefer Darwinís theory, we donít write in our banknotes that we believe in God, our politics donít say God bless Slovakia, there is no Bible in our courts... etc. People who reported they are catholic expres their culture (Christmas, Sunday...) not faith, there are few of them living real religious life including visiting of church and pray-in. In Europe there are only three religous countries... Italy (because of Vatikan), Ireland and Poland.

Social laws

Ha,ha,ha... If your employer were read our labour code he would get an infarction.





And finally. Let's put this too a vote...Jenorozec is just another Troll? I've heard nicer things said about America by Muqtada Al-Sadr.

Who is troll? It's someone who say nothing only trolling or what?

Jenorozec
11 Jul 04,, 14:01
I don't think any nation would tolerate the prolonged presence of foreign troops in their country (look at your Slovakia), but given the choice between the US troops and Saddam and his fedayeen, I'm sure they'd pick US any day of the week. And you have to stop watching Al Jazeera, its bad for your brain.

I said it because Arabians watching Al Jazeera, so they must hate you. Do you understand? They don't watching your TV!

Jenorozec
11 Jul 04,, 14:13
A pre-emptive attack can be classed as self defence. If someone points a knife at you, are you going to wait until he stabs you before you do something about it?

It's very peculiar definition of law! And this is main problem of your policy. You mix self defence in criminal law with self defence in international law.

However you attacked somebody who only grind his knife (maybe for his own defence) far far away.

Jenorozec
11 Jul 04,, 14:18
Religion plays a far bigger part in America than Europe.

Sure, but that doesn't make us blood thirsty religous zealots.


My apologize, but it was only metaphor.
By the way I said bloodthirsty (I alluded on your pain of death) AND religious zealots, not bloodthirsty religious zealots!

Confed999
11 Jul 04,, 14:44
Why do you call me comrade?
Because it seems your info, and opinions, come from Sovietesque sources.

You never say Amerika made mistake...
I have never said America doesn't make mistakes, I've never said America hasn't done bad things.

or American culture is not perfect.
What is American culture? We are many cultures, not just one. How can culture be perfect anyway?

Explain me what did you say:

I said: So human rights is answer? If some country is different you can change its government and kill people who live there?
O.K. By this logic if I disagree with pain of death in legal system and I think it is violate of human rights I can attack USA?

You said: In the immortal words of my great leader, "bring it on".

I think you said try it. (Attack if you can) Am I wrong?
Hey you did understand! You threatened to attack me and I said go for it, correct. When you re-explained it it sounded like you were saying I said we should attack you.

All your arguments are not reason for war but guise for war.

Go read UN resolutions 678, 687 and 1441, those were the reasons given for war. Saddam is the one who claimed to have WMD. Your country thought he had WMD too, so your country lied too?

Yes eastern Europe (incuding my country) is depresed by your standards because of revolution.
Actually you guys haven't destroyed your economy yet, you're showing growth 30 times greater than much of western Europe. After the communists ecological and social damage to your home, I am amazed you've done as well as you have.

You have several times more prisoners per citizen than Europe.
That's what happens when you punish criminals. We don't let murderers out after 10 years, normaly.

Well local emission laws may be same (I have doubt)
I actually doubt it too, ours are probably much more harsh. I doubt you could even drive one of your cars here.

but you devastate global environment.
What percentage greater devistation does the average American cause compared to you? China is doing much greater damage than the US. Eastern Europe fixed all of the Soviet era power plants yet? No?

Why didnít you sign Kyoto protocol?
We allready have a similar reduction in effect, by law. Why do it again? Anyway, isn't that mostly an EU thing?

Statistics are deceptive.
Aren't you the one with the crime statistics earlier? Statistics are ok if they show what you want them too huh? You can't have it both ways.

do you have something similar?)
Yes, nearly all countries do.

But despite of this fact we are different.
Not really, people are people. Once you learn this fact you'll see how silly many of your beliefs are. People aren't different because of where they grew up, their color, religion, sex, or whatever.

they donít build so many new churches as you,
How many churches do we build compared to you? You don't really know do you?

they donít believe that God created Earth in seven days, they prefer Darwinís theory,
Then they aren't Catholic. I'm not a Christian at all, BTW.

In Europe there are only three religous countries...
What? I've been through western Europe several times. I lived in Germany for over a year. I vacation in the Netherlands. There are religious people all over Europe! It's the same as here!

Ha,ha,ha... If your employer were read our laber code he would get an infarction.
I know the labor codes of the Netherlands and Germany, those laws are why the unemployment rate is so staggering.

Who is troll?
You are. You come here telling us about America, a subject you simply know NOTHING about. It's sad really. You should come to America, you would be so mad at the people who have told you all these lies.

Confed999
11 Jul 04,, 14:45
It's very peculiar definition of law! And this is main problem of your policy. You mix self defence in criminal law with self defence in international law.
What international law was broken?

Confed999
11 Jul 04,, 14:47
By the way I said bloodthirsty (I alluded on your pain of death)
I could call you blood thirsty for your current support of Saddam. He was only killing Iraqis right? They must not count to you eastern European types.

Jenorozec
11 Jul 04,, 23:39
Hey you did understand! You threatened to attack me and I said go for it, correct. When you re-explained it it sounded like you were saying I said we should attack you.

So itís you who is obtuse. You didnít say I can not attack, there is not reason to attack USA. You said attack if you can! If this is rule in internatinal relations, every state can attack if itís strong. Itís not important for you whether America is in right but whether America is strong.



Go read UN resolutions 678, 687 and 1441, those were the reasons given for war. Saddam is the one who claimed to have WMD. Your country thought he had WMD too, so your country lied too?

Resolution 1441 (last Iraq resolution) demand Iraq has not WMD and missiles over 150 km radius. Inspectors said we dontít know we need time... but America attack. Now I asked, how Iraq broken this resolution? BTW many lawyers (except Americans and several British) say that new resolution (which says r.1441 was broken) is needed to attack. And my country says nothing! You can buy tens of governments such ours. Our troops have nothing to do in Iraq.



Actually you guys haven't destroyed your economy yet, you're showing growth 30 times greater than much of western Europe. After the communists ecological and social damage to your home, I am amazed you've done as well as you have. I doubt you could even drive one of your cars here.

Comunism is not so bad as you think. Not comunism but Mr. Gorbachev destroy our economy. And we have not so bad economics as you said. For example China. China produce much more food than you (no doubt), but your food is more expensive, so convertion in GDP you produce more food. However I donít unfix you have greater overall GDP than China.

You would be happy to have car made in Bratislava.

We have same enviromental (including car emissions) standarts as EU, because we are member of EU.


Then they aren't Catholic.

Exactly! Itís what I meant, they only call themselves catholic.


Aren't you the one with the crime statistics earlier? Statistics are ok if they show what you want them too huh? You can't have it both ways.

Yes :) But your criminality is proved by more then statistics. And there is one great difference. I operate with numbers of really imprisoned people and you with study of people opinion.

Confed999
12 Jul 04,, 00:06
there is not reason to attack USA.
You said some pain of death thing was reason, remember? You made the threat, I just said go for it.

Resolution 1441
Reiterated the statements made in the cease-fire, plain and simple. UN approved it, no law was broken, and no charges have been pressed.

how Iraq broken this resolution?
They had to show all of the weapons the UN knew they had, along with the weapons they claimed to have, or proof of their destruction. Unclaimed delivery systems were also found. They also had to stop opressing their people. They had to return the Kuwaiti people they had abducted, they executed them instead. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

And my country says nothing!
Ummmmm, there are no countries that clam Saddam didn't have WMD. None. Including France and Russia, and they were right there. Nobody knew they didn't have WMD stockpiles, remember WMD have been found though.

Comunism is not so bad as you thing.
Really comrad? Name one truly, or even mostly, communist country that isn't 3rd world. Communism is tyrany, government is mother, government is father crap. I'm glad we kicked your ass in the cold war. Saddam wasn't a communist, why do you excuse his behavior?

And we have not so bad economics as you said.
When did I say your country had bad economics now? I didn't, I said your county still was showing growth.

but your food is more expensive,
Somebody sold you a bill of goods. The US has the least ammount of every dollar spent, spent on food. In relation to our pay, our food is the least expensive.

We have same enviromental (including car emissions) standarts as EU, because we are member of EU.
Then you meet our standards, everywhere except California probably. Still haven't fixed those power plants though, have you?

Itís what I meant, they only call themselves catholic.
And you think people don't do that here? I still want to know how many more churches are built here than in your country. You claim it's a vast difference, so I want to know if you're full of shit or if you can prove it. My bet is full of shit, you have no idea what you're talking about because the only things you know about the US come from some communist propaganda.

But your criminality is proved by more then statistics.
Fine then prove it.

And there is one great difference. I operate with numbers of really imprisonment people and you with study of people opinion.
I have no idea what that means. You're the one saying statistics are no good not me. As I said we do have more people per capita in prison, but we don't let murderers go in 10 years normaly. Statisticly Europes crime rates are as high or higher, especially theft, for non-violent crime than the US. But your violent crime rate is increasing, while ours drops.

Major_Armstrong
12 Jul 04,, 01:32
More links about Iraqi liberation. We're getting closer to whipping the mullah's butts in Iran and the gangsters in Syria, and liberating the entire mid east from the criminals.


http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1705


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/latestnewsstory.cfm?storyID=3545668&thesection=news&thesubsection=world

Major_Armstrong
12 Jul 04,, 01:43
Also, it can be argued that UN Resolution 1441 made it legal for the coalition troops to go into Iraq. The UN didn't back up their own resolution so members of the coalition did it for them.

By the way foreign insurgents are terrorizing Iraqis, you would think that Iranians, Syrians and others in that region don't like Iraqis.


Click the link for Resolution 1441 here:
http://www.un.org/Docs/scres/2002/sc2002.htm

Adobe Acrobat Reader is available here for free if you don't have it already"
http://www.adobe.com

Major_Armstrong
12 Jul 04,, 02:00
Anti-war sentiments prevail at forum

by Sean McGuern
Staff Writer

Apr. 17, 2003

Congressman Steny Hoyer defended his backing of the war in Iraq to about 100 constituents Tuesday at the Greenbelt Community Center during a two-and-a-half hour forum.

The 11-term Democratic Congressman said that while he has not supported many of the Bush Administration's international policies, he continues to stand behind Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Cautious not to appear as a "Bush apologist," Hoyer said it was appropriate for the president to seek backing from the United Nations, and that the failure of the U.N. Security Council to agree on a resolution did not mandate a delay in military tactics. "The United Nations decided to not enforce its own judgment," Hoyer said. "In many ways, [it] made the world a more dangerous place."

Several audience members expressed their concerns that the adaptation of what they perceived as a preemptive strike doctrine sets a dangerous precedent.

Hoyer agreed, saying that an international adoption of such a policy would have grievous consequences, but insisted that the United States acted to forestall a global threat.

Hoyer said in remarks at the Center for Strategic and International Studies last month that since the adoption of Resolution 1441 by the international community, United States and British warplanes patrolling the southern no-fly zone have been fired at more that 200 times. "I reject any assertion that an armed initiative against Iraq at this time is the implementation of such a preemptive strike," Hoyer said at the time, but rather "a response to military provocation repeatedly taken by Iraq." He added that a military campaign was an enforcement measure designed to foster "peace and security."

While the majority of the audience members commended Hoyer Monday for his candidness and ability to avoid terse political rhetoric, few reacted genially to his position that the United States has a moral obligation to confront human rights violations throughout the world.

"You are my representative, but you do not represent me," Adelphi resident Ann Stoddard told the Democratic Whip.

"You can tell me what to vote," Hoyer replied, "but you cannot tell me what to think."

At one point in the discussion, Hoyer said the death of an Iraqi citizen was unfortunate but he did not waiver in his position on the war.

"I believe in a robust foreign policy and confronting tyrannical governments," Hoyer told the crowd.

Others were more pragmatic in their opposition to the war. Takoma Park resident Alan Mattlage noted that while the United States has spent approximately $80 billion on this operation in addition to the $400 billion allotted by Congress last year for the military, many states including Maryland continue to struggle with budget shortfalls.

When Mattlage said that money would be better spent on health care, affordable housing and education, those gathered responded by stomping their feet, clapping their hands and whistling.

A handful of audience members who spoke in favor of the war were jeered. Jerry Dancis of Greenbelt said that the United States was justified in its action, and that the unfortunate death of Iraqi civilians would ultimately save more lives. "The casualties are considerably less than the number Saddam has inflicted in the past or would inflict if we allowed him to remain," Dancis said to boisterous objections.

In closing, Hoyer paraphrased the political theorist Edmond Burke.

"What [representatives] owe [their] constituents is our best judgment," he said.

E-mail Sean McGuern at smcguern@gazette.net.



http://www.gazette.net/200316/greenbelt/news/154275-1.html

Confed999
12 Jul 04,, 02:33
More links about Iraqi liberation
I like the Faith Freedom dot Org people. Their "prove us wrong and we'll take the site down" slogan is great.

Confed999
12 Jul 04,, 02:36
"I believe in a robust foreign policy and confronting tyrannical governments," Hoyer told the crowd.
The American way...

Major_Armstrong
12 Jul 04,, 04:23
Saddam Hussein's victims:

http://massgraves.info/

bodybag
12 Jul 04,, 23:52
Saddam Hussein's victims:

http://massgraves.info/
Now you suddenly care about saddam's "victims"?
Where were you when saddam was our friend ?

Confed999
12 Jul 04,, 23:58
Now you suddenly care about saddam's "victims"?
Where were you when saddam was our friend ?
I couldn't vote then, where were you?

Major_Armstrong
16 Jul 04,, 01:50
Read through the history of Iraq here:

http://www.theworld.org/iraq/part1.html

Whether you want to believe it or not, a lot of things are not under the control of the USA. According to that article, Iran wanted to take over Iraq. We couldn't let this happen. Anti-war people seem to be the least educated on what's going on in the world, yet they insist their views are the correct ones. Saddam Hussein had a lot of friends according to this:



http://projects.sipri.se/armstrade/Trnd_Ind_IRQ_Imps_73-02.pdf

Top three suppliers of arms to Saddam Hussein, 1973 - 2002

USSR: 57%
* France: 13%
* China: 12%

Then, in order of importance:

* Czechoslovakia: 7%
* Poland: 4%
* Brazil: 2%
* Egypt: 1%
* Romania: 1%
* Denmark: 1%
* Libya: 1%

USA's sales -- 1 percent. None provided before or after the Iraq-Iran war.

Aryan
17 Jul 04,, 13:34
Lets not forget the Indian factor

http://www.isis-online.org/publications/southasia/indiraq.html

Reportedly, Iraqi scientists were working in India's plutonium separation labs, often referred to as fuel reprocessing laboratories, at the time India separated the plutonium for its first nuclear explosive device. Those same Iraqi scientists later were in charge of the nuclear fuel reprocessing unit supplied to Iraq by the Italian company CNEN. A year or two later, an Indian scientist spent a year at the Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission's computer center training Iraqis on the use of nuclear computer codes.

However, following the destruction of the Iraqi (French-supplied) Osirak nuclear reactor in 1981, the Iraqi program went underground to develop indigenous nuclear weapon production facilities. Iraq no longer welcomed the exchange of scientists for fear of revealing its clandestine program. Nuclear cooperation was placed on hold. Nonetheless, India taught Iraq many tricks, including how to acquire nuclear technology under the guise of peaceful nuclear energy. Iraq also learned how easy it was to hide a nuclear weapons program under the cover of peaceful use.

Confed999
17 Jul 04,, 18:27
Lets not forget
Standard deals with bad guys thing, it's allways a bad idea.

Synikul
17 Jul 04,, 18:52
In short, the sword is mightier than the pen and Might is indeed Right and that is the international truth, if not the law.

:eek:

I agree!

I've never seen anyone else, on any board, say that. When I say it, it always turns into a huge argument.

Confed999
17 Jul 04,, 19:30
I've never seen anyone else, on any board, say that. When I say it, it always turns into a huge argument.
Ray has it together. ;) I don't know what it would be an argument though, seems to make sense.