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  • Indian fighters beat US

    Check out the link.....

    http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/06-18-04.asp

  • #2
    That's interesting.

    I assume though that this isn't taking into consideration the strategic aspects of our Air Force which attempts to disable the enemies ability to even get aircraft airborn which results in complete air superiority simply due to a lack of opposition to begin with. This worked in Iraq, but I wouldn't say it would work with everyone.

    The USAF also has the fastest response time in getting fighter wings mobilized from the US to other countries.

    I also question today's technology in terms of combat simulation now. I spent a good 16 years living on air force bases, and it wasn't uncommon to see signs posted by specific fighter wings with their total spenditures per month on sortie fuel costs.

    It was always in the millions, and really made you think -- because that was one wing out of many. We spend quite a bit of money on fuel for training sorties, it's almost unimaginable.

    So I was under the impression that the US didn't neccessarily have the best technology, it had the best trained pilots due to superior training time. Hasn't the MiG 29 always been technologically superior to the F-15?

    When you drive onto Eglin AFB, there is a sign that says 'Welcome to Eglin AFB, home of the 37th Tactical Fighter Wing - Largest MiG part distributor in South East Aisa' or something like that. They had something like a 16 to 1 kill ratio against MiG's.

    I'm assuming these Indian pilots had either alot of help in simulation training with the current technology available, or they decided to divert more funding to sorties. Because it really doesn't matter how good your technology is with air-to-air combat fighters if you don't have good pilots. Good pilots don't grow on trees either. They have to be taught, and teaching requires funding.

    Now the latter is true for aircraft like F-117s because the aircraft does most of the flying and navigating. You just tell it what to do.

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    • #3
      According to my knowledge this is not the first time when Flanker has outperformed the F-15 in its stake on range fight. Both times when US and Russia had joint training fights good old SU-27UB proved its vast superiority.

      WHAT IS REALLY INTERESTING IS THAT PENTAGON HAS MADE IT PUBLIC/ALLOWED INDIANS MAKE IT PUBLIC...... I agree to the guesses here that this was done to lobby more funding of F-22 Raptor

      ps. arond a year ago I talked with a pilot who participated in US/Russia training back in 1994. He gave me his interesting interpretaion of long/short engagement of SU-27 vs F-15

      "if we engage at a front courses then reaction time for F-15 is less than 1.5 minutes at distance of 100km, later it we come too close to shoot with long-ranges is then it is too late for him, as I will definetelly knock him in close engagement" ..... "my reaction is to dip down using a verticle trust verctoring, but it is limited to ability of a pilot to remain concioous at a such a maneuvre.... if I dip down bellow 0.5km at a front course the proctor will consider his missile ineffected....." in his words during this meneuvres where 5 SU-27 participated they has outplayed US fighters. The training was done in Alaska. So that is right - when modern technology meets in a fight much goes to a pilot training

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      • #4
        The 1950’s saw a high-speed, high altitude planes with-missile-will-do-everything paradigm that influenced nearly all aircraft designs, typified by the McDonald F-4 Phantom II. When DoD planners/analysts realized this mistake in Vietnam the next generation of planes focused back on traditional fighter plane characteristics; maneuverability, good outward pilot vision and installed guns back in the designs.

        After the Open Skies policy resulted in the loss of Francis Gary Powers U2 over the Soviet Union flying from Pakistan to Norway, the entire high altitude doctrine was scrapped. The B-52, B-58 and then XB-70 (for which the Mig-25 was built to counter) were discarded and/or mission profiles changed to low altitude. This new doctrine called for FB-111, B-1A and cruise missiles. The Russian countered these new low altitude threats with Mig-23, Mig-29, Su-27 and Mig-31.

        Now the DoD attempts to again move the discussion back to high altitude with its Lockheed’s F-22 Raptor? It’s similarities in so many ways to the 1960’s Lockheed A-12, YF-12 and SR-71 seem hard to ignore.

        Lockheed-Martin/Boeing used the Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker to make the case that the F-15 Eagle must be replaced (with Raptor). That Sukhoi neutralizes the F-15 weapon system (radar/missiles). The Cope India exercises starting in 2004 seemed to confirm, (actually even more than anyone imagined!), Lockheed Martin/Boeing arguments for the F-22.

        Western military observers are now attempting to dismiss these exercises with the Indians vs F-15C as; not relevant. The Flanker did (and continues to) perform well against the F-15, F-16 and in exercises with the RAF even Typhoon.

        So which is it? Can the F-15 still be effective or can it not?

        The claims are now that the USAF did/does not bring its true ‘go-to-war-gear’ to these exercises. So DoD and western military observers want it both ways?

        What then is the goal of such exercises after their absence for nearly 40 years?

        F-15 effectively has no missile dimensional/carriage restrictions. Neither does new fighters from Sweden, France, China, Europeans, (nor is much emphasis placed on stealth) and as yet the Russians.

        F-15 and Raptor both benefit from AWACS support. Both require tanker support. Both must operate from forward deployed bases. Both are to operate against scores of “less sophisticated” aircraft over hostile airspace w/integrated air defense networks. Both aircraft fire the same exact missiles. Both aircraft exhibit higher fuel usage in afterburner. Both require additional jamming support by nearby assets. Both could effectively use the same electronic radar/system/sensors. Both can use some type of stealthy “Top-Coat” coating on the airframes. Both can accelerate to push AMRAAM ranges further.

        So then what’s the need for Raptor ?

        It is the first supersonic highly maneuverable stealth airplane. Is it really such a surprise it mimics most all the traditional characteristics, strengths, weaknesses and behavior(s) of a typical fighter jet?

        Stealth is used as an option for attack. Su-27 type aircraft are designed conceptually for defense (long range, Russia is vast). No need for stealth over friendly airspace (?) Kelly Johnson, the father of the Lockheed Skunk Works believed that stealth ideas simply would not work.

        This is a watershed moment for American airpower? We may have indeed painted ourselves in to a corner (strike and bombers not a problem) with an offensive forward deployed force structure requiring stealth combat fighters as well?
        Last edited by obrescia; 23 Jun 08,, 08:01.

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        • #5
          I love stuff like this!! Very............fictional and entertaining to me...
          But I'd rather watch a movie!!:P

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bella View Post
            I love stuff like this!! Very............fictional and entertaining to me...
            But I'd rather watch a movie!!:P
            I wish some people would learn the basics about DACT - and also check their history of aircraft development before trotting out the "aircraft sans guns" story.
            Linkeden:
            http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
            http://cofda.wordpress.com/

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            • #7
              The real lessons (or goal) of Code India is likely the importance of battle space management (Indian aircraft were vectored by red-team USAF AWACS)...but everyone already knows this stuff...so again…here come the Ks-172/Kh-31s (!) ...scary.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by obrescia View Post
                necromancy
                Ugh, is there any reason you revived a thread from 4 years ago? This topic has been discussed, rediscussed, and beaten thoroughly to death MANY times.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jimmy View Post
                  Ugh, is there any reason you revived a thread from 4 years ago? This topic has been discussed, rediscussed, and beaten thoroughly to death MANY times.
                  fair enough...sorry.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jimmy View Post
                    Ugh, is there any reason you revived a thread from 4 years ago? This topic has been discussed, rediscussed, and beaten thoroughly to death MANY times.
                    These exercises are ongoing and information on later ones seems to be scarce (?). 2004 was just the first one in 40 years. I understand people’s frustration at the topic (I really do) but it is a conundrum on several levels, seems to raise more questions than answers. The MKi did not participate in 04 nor did AMRAAM and AESA etc. In some senses it feels like the 04 exercises where negotiated so no mater the outcome…everyone can save face. If honest and very (very) real exercises were held, the USAF may have indeed gotten all the Raptors it wanted (??). I don’t know…

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                    • #11
                      oh great.. not again... no one really cares anymore.. and such bad publicity only dove the cope India exercises into more secrecy..
                      Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                      -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                        oh great.. not again... no one really cares anymore.. and such bad publicity only dove the cope India exercises into more secrecy..
                        That may be true; it created a furor in the US congress. Suffice it to say both side are learning something from (?). Everyone wants to do the right thing here and give their aircrews what they need, if they need it, they’re (and their families are) the ones putting their butts on the line. It will probably come up again. Just ignore the tread next time...no biggie.
                        Last edited by obrescia; 25 Jun 08,, 03:29.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bella View Post
                          I love stuff like this!! Very............fictional and entertaining to me...
                          But I'd rather watch a movie!!:P
                          O.K.! I'm going to watch a movie!!:P

                          I take it you don't get my humor?

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