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  • Poland begs Germany to Salvage Poland

    Pole wants Germans to drop claims

    By Judy Dempsey International Herald Tribune

    Published: October 29, 2006

    WARSAW: With the start of his first official visit to Germany on Monday, Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski of Poland is calling on Germans to renounce all property claims stretching back to World War II, saying it is time to clear up "misunderstandings" that have brought relations between the countries to their lowest point in many years.

    "Misunderstandings can and must be cleared up together," Kaczynski, who leads a nationalist-conservative government, said in an interview to be published Monday in the mass-circulation daily newspaper Bild. "But it makes no sense to remain silent over what causes us in Poland concern."

    A few people who were expelled from Poland after World War II are going through the German courts to reclaim their property. The German government has long renounced any restitution claims. But the Polish government remains skeptical.

    Seeking to reassure Warsaw, Chancellor Angela Merkel said over the weekend that her government had no property claims on Poland and that the borders between the two countries were recognized.

    "With this, we have laid a foundation on which we can work together in trust," Merkel said. She added that Kaczynski's visit was "symbolic of how we should develop our relations as good neighbors in the European Union."

    Indeed, the former German chancellor Gerhard Schröder and his Polish counterpart agreed in early 2005 that neither government would support claims pursued by individuals in either country.

    Another grievance of the Warsaw government is an exhibition in Berlin organized by the German Federation of Expellees in which it depicts the fate of hundreds of thousands of Germans who were forced to leave Poland after 1945. Kaczynski accused Germany of equating the victims and the perpetrators.

    "It has to be clear who were the victims and who were the perpetrators" during World War II, he said when the exhibition opened last August.

    The restitution issue is just one of several controversies that have generated a wave of nationalist and anti-German fervor in Poland. Others include Germany's close ties to President Vladimir Putin of Russia and the decision by the Schröder government to build a gas pipeline under the Baltic Sea that will bypass Poland.

    Despite the sour relations, Merkel has made it clear to her advisers that she wants several hours of talks with Kaczynski in order to try to repair ties before Germany takes over the presidency of the EU in January.

    "We are looking for a fresh start," said Ruprecht Polenz, chairman of the foreign affairs of the German Bundestag, or Parliament. "We have a lot of common interests, particularly when it comes to creating new policies for our eastern neighbors, including Ukraine and Moldova."

    Polish officials acknowledge that, if they want influence in the EU on issues related to energy security, Russia and Ukraine, it will require much closer relations with Germany.

    "It is important that Kaczynski and Merkel establish a relationship," said Pawel Zalewski, foreign affairs spokesman for the Polish Sejm, or Parliament. "We really do need a dialogue with Berlin so that Berlin will consider our interests and concerns."

    But it is Germany's relations with Russia - viewed over the centuries with fear and suspicion by Poland - that has aroused the loudest criticism from both Kaczynski and his twin brother, Lech, who is the Polish president.

    "No one in Poland cannot but feel the significance of this relationship between Germany and Russia," Zalewski said. "We want good relations with Germany but Germany should understand that Poland's interests must be taken into account."

    The Polish government is particularly suspicious about Germany's new "Ostpolitik," or eastern policy, which attempts to reach out to Russia through a network of economic, social, cultural and trade ties in order to bring the country closer to Europe.

    Eugeniusz Smolar, director of the Center for International Relations in Warsaw, says the strategy is flawed because it fails to focus on "values," including human rights and press freedom.

    "We would love to believe that security was best assured through the spread of democracy and the encouragement of civil society," Smolar said. "It sounds awfully idealistic while dealing with today's Russia."

    The Polish government is still bitter over Schroder's decision to build a Russian-German gas pipeline that will run under the Baltic Sea - without consulting Poland. The pipeline will give Russia's giant state-owned energy company direct access to its markets in Western Europe.

    "Germany ignored its partners and did damage to creating a common foreign and security policy for the EU," said Smolar. "In this sense, the Kaczynski brothers' patriotic and inward-looking rhetoric could also be perceived as the reaction to such policies."

    Merkel has defended the pipeline, saying it would increase energy security for both Germany, which already imports a third of its energy from Russia, and for the EU, which imports more than a quarter from Russia.



    http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/10/29/news/poland.php
    Utter nonsense.

    Poland must give compensation for properties of Germans who were sent out of Poland.

    Who cares if Poland was not consulted because of the oil and gas deal with Russia. Germany has to look after its own national interest and not salvage a bankrupt Poland.

    And ever since the unification, Germany hasn't been doing too well and so if she looks after her national interest, it is all the more correct.

    The bogey of EU and security is all balderdash!


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

  • #2
    Originally posted by Ray View Post
    Utter nonsense.

    Poland must give compensation for properties of Germans who were sent out of Poland.
    Then Germany must also compensate Poland for the entire cost of rebuilding the country after they were invaded and nearly burned to the ground in WW-II. They must also be compensated for the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Poles murdered by the Germans. They must be compensated for the lost production and lost potential after the war, caused solely by Germany's aggression.

    While they're at it, Germany must compensate all the rest of Europe, including Russia, for their casualties and the cost of rebuilding after WW-II, as well as reimbursing the Allies for their expenditures in prosecuting WW-II and compensation to the wounded and the families of those killed.

    Oh yes, with compound interest to the present.

    That should occupy Germany's entire GNP for the next century. We'll be generous though. We will allow the Germa people an 800 calorie per day diet of stale rutebegas and a pint of 75 octane gasoline per person per week for transportation. The rest of their production must be delivered to the Allies as reparations. Now get working!

    The first installment is due in thirty days. The bombers will launch in forty five days.

    IOW, if anything is owed to the German people, the German gummint needs to shut up and pay them off.

    Vae victis.
    - Dennis
    --
    Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory there is no survival.
    -Sir Winston Churchill

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Edgeplay_cgo View Post
      Then Germany must also compensate Poland for the entire cost of rebuilding the country after they were invaded and nearly burned to the ground in WW-II. They must also be compensated for the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Poles murdered by the Germans. They must be compensated for the lost production and lost potential after the war, caused solely by Germany's aggression.

      While they're at it, Germany must compensate all the rest of Europe, including Russia, for their casualties and the cost of rebuilding after WW-II, as well as reimbursing the Allies for their expenditures in prosecuting WW-II and compensation to the wounded and the families of those killed.

      Oh yes, with compound interest to the present.

      That should occupy Germany's entire GNP for the next century. We'll be generous though. We will allow the Germa people an 800 calorie per day diet of stale rutebegas and a pint of 75 octane gasoline per person per week for transportation. The rest of their production must be delivered to the Allies as reparations. Now get working!

      The first installment is due in thirty days. The bombers will launch in forty five days.

      IOW, if anything is owed to the German people, the German gummint needs to shut up and pay them off.

      Vae victis.
      Hear, Hear Eltee!!!

      Comment


      • #4
        And so should many governments pay up.

        How about the colonial powers paying up their colonies for the pillage perpetuated through centuries of occupation?

        How about the US paying up Japan for the A bombs and also for Iraq and heaven knows how many little revolutions and interventions she had done?

        What says you on that?


        "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

        I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

        HAKUNA MATATA

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Ray View Post
          And so should many governments pay up.

          How about the colonial powers paying up their colonies for the pillage perpetuated through centuries of occupation?

          How about the US paying up Japan for the A bombs and also for Iraq and heaven knows how many little revolutions and interventions she had done?

          What says you on that?
          Pay Japan?

          Pay Japan?

          I'm sorry.....but did you say to pay Japan?

          Yeah, no effin' way....Sir. They're lucky we left any of them alive after their treachery at pearl and their subsequent sub-human debauchery as fully 1/4 of the globe's population suffered mightily under their tyrannical reign.

          A reign that took not ONE, not TWO atomic blasts to end, but the outright destruction(for no military rhyme or reason) of their last standing field army abroad.

          Hell, by allowing them to keep their PIECE OF SHIIT genocidal Emperor(and a number of his key henchmen) we practically let them off the hook for their innumerable crimes against ALL of humanity.

          A short list of only some of the crimes the IJE is guilty of:

          -Canabalism of POWs(including George Bush I's entire downed flight crew)
          -Medical surgical experimentation(often with no anesthetic, not even local)
          -Outright murder and execution of POWs and even non-combatants for the mere amusement of their ranks(as i have noted in the past, having served in the regiment that endured the infamous Bataan Death March, and meeting many of those haunted old men decades later, i have a special hatred for the Japanese. Another of the Japs favored and oft-repeated atrocities was to use chinese civilians or Allied POWs- live ones- for ORGANIZED bayonet drilling)
          -Mass forced Starvation
          -Deliberate mass injections of harmful chemicals and or/diseases in POWs or foriegn civilians to observe the results
          -Dozens of separate chemical warfare attacks

          Tell ya what, if they want some gold coins off of us...molon labe.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Ray View Post
            How about the US paying up Japan for the A bombs and also for Iraq and heaven knows how many little revolutions and interventions she had done?

            What says you on that?
            We did pay Japan. We rebuilt the nation to become the 2nd most powerful economy in the world. Good thing we didn't drop a few more A-bombs there, or they might have overtaken us to be the #1 economy in the world.
            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

            Comment


            • #7
              We paid them in Plutonium.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Ray View Post
                How about the US paying up Japan for the A bombs
                Why should the US pay for using a weapon to save the lives of countless enemy nationals by concluding a war they started?

                If anything, Japan should turn 90% of its GNP over to the US in perpetuity, for having attacked us and lost. They ought to send us a thank you card every August 6th.

                Vae Victis.

                That's the problem with reparations, and why they aren't generally considered a good idea. It's generally better to forgo the idea of reparations.
                - Dennis
                --
                Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory there is no survival.
                -Sir Winston Churchill

                Comment


                • #9
                  Cynical

                  [QUOTE=Ray;287289]Utter nonsense.

                  Poland must give compensation for properties of Germans who were sent out of Poland.

                  This statement is probably the world record of cynism.
                  Germany DID NOT pay compensations for Poland.
                  So it turns out that Germans (Uebermenschen perhaps?) are those priviledged and entitled for compensations, while Poles (surely, the Untermenschen) are not?
                  Perhaps in India such attitude it is a standard of morality, but there are little chances it can be accepted in Poland.
                  And it were Germans who supported Hitler, not Poles, please note that little difference.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ray View Post
                    And so should many governments pay up.

                    How about the colonial powers paying up their colonies for the pillage perpetuated through centuries of occupation?

                    How about the US paying up Japan for the A bombs and also for Iraq and heaven knows how many little revolutions and interventions she had done?

                    What says you on that?
                    Sir,
                    We do its called foreign aid.
                    Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      uh Germany did pay reparations after wwII (in form of money, forced labour, transfered factory to the allied countries, seized patents etc) or in case of poland..about 1/5 of Germany with everything in it.

                      And Germany has recognized the polnish borders several times (50,70 & 90) and no government here are disputing those. What is happening is that a rather small group of expelled (or their children) are calling for compensation (even though all expelled allready cont one when they arrived in germany, payed by west germany "Lastenausgleich" called). Nor our Administration nor the majourity of the Germans support their claims, but there is simply no law here that can forbid them to go to court over the issue. bit you can be sure thall all German courts will reject their claims too.

                      What Poland is wanting is that Germany agrees to pay any compensation to those expelled they might win in a courtrulling, but Germany refuses to do so, because if they would, it would mean that they accept that those people have a right for another compensation (which is against their standpoint). The best thing you can do with those people (who, again, are only a very small group) is simply to ingore them since they have no means of accomplish any of their goals. But this wont happen on the Polish side because this issue it is a useful tool for the twins for some anti-german rhetoric since they are still pissed of because of the pipleline.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Why should the US pay?

                        Well, if the stuff below is the logic, then all will pay and that includes the War and damage being done in Iraq

                        Then Germany must also compensate Poland for the entire cost of rebuilding the country after they were invaded and nearly burned to the ground in WW-II. They must also be compensated for the hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Poles murdered by the Germans. They must be compensated for the lost production and lost potential after the war, caused solely by Germany's aggression.
                        Now, should Germany pay?

                        And should the unequal order of compensation already milked from Germany not be returned to her?

                        But if it is Victors' Justice, then it is another matter!

                        So, it is high time to get off the Morality high horse!
                        Last edited by Ray; 09 May 07,, 18:28.


                        "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                        I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                        HAKUNA MATATA

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Perhaps in India such attitude it is a standard of morality, but there are little chances it can be accepted in Poland.
                          Jacek,

                          Perhaps if you indicate your nationality like most on this forum, instead of hiding behind an invisible cloak, we could possible discuss the morality of your country too!

                          Obviously, the Poles did not support Hitler. They, instead, shivered in their pants at the prospect of Hitler coming to power!
                          Last edited by Ray; 09 May 07,, 18:34.


                          "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                          I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                          HAKUNA MATATA

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Jacek,

                            But this much I shall agree with you that Poles are an impoverished lot (if that is what you are meaning) and they require to scrape the barrel wherever they can to meet their daily needs!


                            "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                            I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                            HAKUNA MATATA

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Jacek is polish first name .
                              If i only was so smart yesterday as my wife is today

                              Minding your own biz is great virtue, but situation awareness saves lives - Dok

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