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Ray
13 Jun 04,, 05:18
Some sites on Balawaristan (Northern Territories)

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=Balawaristan&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&start=10&sa=N

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=Balawaristan&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&start=10&sa=N

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=Balawaristan&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&start=10&sa=N

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=Balawaristan&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&start=10&sa=N

Asim Aquil
13 Jun 04,, 06:05
Seems like one of those 3rd rate freedom movements... Unreliable links, they are Indian so there's always a doubt on the author's real motives.

But they obviously have a problem with their rights. Raise the issue, we've been correcting rights based issues and laws all around the country. Repealing sexists, racist laws and empowering the minorities.

However I believe Pakistan can only correct the previous earlier generations mistakes with these territories by absorbing them in as official Pakistani provinces. Even North and South Waziristan needs to be absorbed. Otherwise these places will never see modernism. Their children have the right to live like mainstream Pakistanis. It was a good thing Pakistan abolished the Mehtar rule in the 70s.

Been to Gilgit several times. These are hardly the common man's views. They're an extremist minority, who needs to understand and put in perspective what's right for them. However I do see the lack of their representation in the Parliament as a crucial problem leading to escalation of the situation.

Ray
13 Jun 04,, 12:00
What is the Mehtar rule?

I Googled Balawaristan (since a friend informed me that this an interesting site). I was surprised that there is so much of info available on Baltistan and Gilgit Sad they are unhappy with the situation.

I was aware they are Shias (apart from the majority Sunnis in Pakistan), but I never knew there was a freedom movement.

Actually what interested me was that I was told is that because this a remote area, the Taliban has taken refuge and raising Cain. I was actually looking at the spread of terrorism.

Personally, I don't think much about these movements anywhere in the world that cause instabilty in any region. However, since independent and western sources are critical of human rights and opresssion, I thought it worth some interest.

Aryan
13 Jun 04,, 12:59
My father is from Gilgit, half of my family are, and I've been there when I was younger. I've never heard of a Balawaristan movement, and neither have they. We are Pakistani and proud. The website is just a ****** fabrication.

While we are on the topic of google, you want me to copy and paste any of the dozens of separatist movements that occur in the artifical republic of India, and which do have widespread support.

ursamajor
13 Jun 04,, 15:37
It is not as peaceful as you think, only other day I read in the newspaper that there was firing on demonstrator and one protester died. Authorities have banned demonstrations.

If I recall correctly, this had to someting with the religioous book or something.

Also didn't Zia send a lashker back in 1988 and hundreads of these people were massacred?

Ray
13 Jun 04,, 20:34
Aryan,

It is you who got me looking at websites. I too did not know.

Though I know this much having been in Kargil in Operation Vijay (Kargil Intrusion by Pakistan) that it was a sad thing that the Pak Army did not admit that the Northern Light Infantry [NLI](totally composed of Shia Moslems of Baltisthan etc) were abandoned and not claimed. We buried these poor men as per Moslem rites. I buried them and so I should know. Being a soldier, it pained me that they were not recognised for their service to their country. I sure would have hated such a fate.

Next was report that NLI is going to be 'mixed' i.e. no longer composed solely of the Northern Territories folks. That is a bad thing since the NLI folks are as good fighters as anyone else. Let me tell you that they are as good or even bad as any Jack in this trade.

I have interacted with a lot of Kargilis and other Baltis and others. They are excellent folks . Therefore, I care for them. Theya re good folks and very kind. Hence, whether they are in India or Pakistan, I say, give them total dignity and don' treat them as second class or political tools.

I maybe wrong as per you all, but then I feel human dignity is paramount,
irrespective of personal views or national views.

Ray
13 Jun 04,, 20:37
I am not a bigot. I try to look at things evenhanded. I may have failed.

Google BALAWARISTAN and do let me know how wrong they are.

Asim Aquil
13 Jun 04,, 20:53
Well I'd say the dis-unity is over emphasized. I mean you go talk to any Balochi and he'll go like "aah the damn rich Punjabis take away all the goodies and we get zilch! Screw em!" Many of their issues were right, and as we saw in yesterday's budget, Balochistan and NWFP got equal shares in a lot of things even though their population is considerably less.

But they all do unite under the flag as one nation and are die hard Pakistanis. Kargil was a chaos. Governments changing, Americans involved. Psych war, no one knows the truth. There were coverups on both sides. Since you were a soldier you probably would know the Indian casualties weren't as small as they all claimed, right? But it was a neccessary thing at the time. Keeping the Indian Army's morale up! Ugly situation! Pakistan had denied their involvement in Kargil. The politics won't allow them to accept. The soldiers know the politics, they're indeed brave people, who go into battle knowing all that.

But I'm pretty damn sure most of this is a sham by none other than Al-Qaida or similar terrorists. Most of them terrorising India, btw. Same goes with all the other political issues in Pakistan. It's nothing to do with ethnic bashing or racism. We've got weak laws in Pakistan. One of the woes of being a 3rd world nation. Pakistan indeed needs a tune-up job. These sites are a propaganda tool, for the terrorists (who are mainly Al-Qaida) residing there to keep the chaos going. So the government stays busy elsewhere.

Ray
14 Jun 04,, 07:00
Aryan,

It is most amusing that you call India an 'artificial republic'. I presume you are implying that it is artificial to have a vibrant democracy when the neighbourhood bristles otherwise with military brass;)

It is interesting that this 'artificial republic' is being considered along with China to join the G8.

Aryan
14 Jun 04,, 14:39
Aryan,

It is most amusing that you call India an 'artificial republic'. I presume you are implying that it is artificial to have a vibrant democracy when the neighbourhood bristles otherwise with military brass;)

It is interesting that this 'artificial republic' is being considered along with China to join the G8.

Yep, its artificial just like all the other countries created by British colonialist like Iraq and Nigeria, and half of the middle east and africa. Pakistan before 1971 was artificial, East and West had nothing in common. The same goes with India, the 1 billion people do not share culture, customs, religion or language. It is only a matter of time.

Ray
14 Jun 04,, 15:01
Yep, its artificial just like all the other countries created by British colonialist like Iraq and Nigeria, and half of the middle east and africa. Pakistan before 1971 was artificial, East and West had nothing in common. The same goes with India, the 1 billion people do not share culture, customs, religion or language. It is only a matter of time.

Why must you insist that the plague besotting you, should come a visiting us?

lexxwern
14 Jun 04,, 15:03
Culture, customs etc don't make a country a country. If they did then the USA would not exist. You Pakistani's can't seperate nationalism with religion/caste/race which is why you have a narrow outlook on the world.

Anyway I had heard of this Balwaristan movement some time ago, around a year. It seems they had approached Indian diplomats for "moral support" but since India has a claim to the entire region we refused to support them.

Aryan
14 Jun 04,, 15:58
Culture, customs etc don't make a country a country. If they did then the USA would not exist. You Pakistani's can't seperate nationalism with religion/caste/race which is why you have a narrow outlook on the world.


Caste? Thats a bit unfair, considering you guys have the Indian caste system that dominates India to this day.


Why must you insist that the plague besotting you, should come a visiting us?

I might be going Pakistan this summer, if I do, I'll try to give India a visit. But that doesn't change the fact that India is like a Yugoslavia, a nation created with false credentials.

When I get back home, I'll list all the freedom movements that are going on in India today.

Jay
14 Jun 04,, 17:29
My father is from Gilgit, half of my family are, and I've been there when I was younger. I've never heard of a Balawaristan movement, and neither have they. We are Pakistani and proud. The website is just a ****** fabrication.

While we are on the topic of google, you want me to copy and paste any of the dozens of separatist movements that occur in the artifical republic of India, and which do have widespread support.

Mind your words Aryan. Or I'll call Pakistan with names!

Mods : Aryan has been repeating his terrorist mentality again and again, do warn him!

Ray
14 Jun 04,, 18:02
Aryan,

I am afraid you have not understood my post.

I did not ask you to visit us.

What I tried to convey is that the plague that is plaguing Pakistan, why do you want it to visit us? That means why should we also suffer these unfortuante problems that you have i.e. sectrian violence, terrorists (quite a few Paksitanis themselves and not foreign sponsored) ripping up the country, poor economy, etc.

In so far as caste, religion etc, we are a secular country. Unity in Diversity is our motto. We are above all these divides. If we were not, then the BJP (the Hindu party with a whole lot of important Moslems in that party) would not have been defeated in the genral elections recently held; unlike sadly Pakistan, where though Jinnah started Pakistan as a secular country, it reverted to the strong religious bigotry which was finetuned by General Zia so much so that the Army has some of these religious fanatics too. I believe that the nephew of the chap who masterminded 9/11 was arrested from a Pakistani Major's house. Imagine an Army chap sheltering chaps who are inimical to their own Chief ie. General Musharraf!

Much that you wish to criticise the British (the country where you claim you were born), they also left some excellent legacy, like, democracy and an apolitical Military. India learnt to accept their good policies and ethos. If Pakistan has had repeated military govts instead of what Musharraf said 'sham democracy' when he toppled the civilian govt, then could it be that there is some undemocratic psyche that is ingrained somewhere?

Could military govts not place Pakistan as an 'artificial nation' the epithet that you wanted to label India with?

Ray
14 Jun 04,, 18:16
Indeed caste may still be prevalent. What would we term the Shia Sunni divide in Pakistan? Race dispute? After all it is the same religion, but there is the divide and you can call it by any name.

When you visit Pakistan, do visit Baltistan and Gilgit. I sure would be looking forward to your posts thereafter on Baltistan and Gilgit. If possible, visit Hunza too. Do let us know the difference from mainland Pakistan.

Aryan
14 Jun 04,, 21:00
Indeed caste may still be prevalent. What would we term the Shia Sunni divide in Pakistan? Race dispute? After all it is the same religion, but there is the divide and you can call it by any name.

When you visit Pakistan, do visit Baltistan and Gilgit. I sure would be looking forward to your posts thereafter on Baltistan and Gilgit. If possible, visit Hunza too. Do let us know the difference from mainland Pakistan.

There is no divide between sunnis and shias, they live together and pray in each others mosques. There isn't any form of "ghettoisation", or isolation. In India on the other hand you get do get

Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF)
Dalitstan Organization Seek independence for the Dalits, or black Untouchables, also known as Dravidians, the original inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent before the arrival and dominance of the caucasian Hindis.

"Mughalstan" (ie urdu speaking Muslim Indians)
Jammu & Kashmir
Tamil Nadu
Nagaland
Assam
Manipur
Khalistan
Dalitstan
Telengana
Sikkim

I'm sure there are plenty of other undocumented separatist movements I've missed out on. All of these are indigenous and the only two Pakistan have supported is Kashmir and Khalistan, the former was our territory and the Sikhs share a racial and lingual similarity to us.

FYI, I went to our family house in Gilgit (well near it I believe) last time I went Pakistan. I loved it, it was far more relaxed and peaceful compared to Lahore, there was no pollution andcars horning night and day. It was also very isolated. Where our house is, there is a very picturesque backdrop, and we took lots of pictures. I'll dig them out and scan them in sometime.

Jay
14 Jun 04,, 23:37
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Pakistan has 4 provinces, FATA, Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and Islamabad.

Lets see the freedom movements in em..
Balochistan :
http://www.balochvoice.com/Balochvoice_Press_release_16-6-02.html
http://www.balochunity.org/index.php?unity+&did=409

Sindh:
http://www.sindhlink.net/wsc/aboutwsc.htm
http://www.thesindh.com/Articles/PakistanandFederalism.asp

NWFProvince:
They already follow taliban styled rules on dress, women's freedom of movement and public entertainment.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2685151.stm
http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/pak030603.html

FATA:
Pakistan troops are getting killed now and then by the tribals. I'm skeptical whether Govt of Pakistan can wield its power in FATA.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1711316.stm

We already talked about Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (Balawaristan).


Dalitstan Organization Seek independence for the Dalits, or black Untouchables, also known as Dravidians, the original inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent before the arrival and dominance of the caucasian Hindis.
Where did you get this info from? Pakistani govt website?? Dalits are not dravidians.


Tamil Nadu
Thats my home state, and I dont see Indian Military oppressing people fighting for self determination.


Telengana
Are you getting desperate?? Other than Pakistan govt source read some neutral news articles. They are asking for a seperate state with in India. :biggrin:


Khalistan
Yep, half of Punjab is in Pakistan, so I need to include this "freedom" movement in Pakistan's list. :biggrin:


Assam
Manipur
Sikkim
NLFT and BLT has already announced truce with the IA. The remaining main terror org is ULFA of Assam.

Jay
14 Jun 04,, 23:47
The Constitution of Pakistan guarantees the freedom of expression through Article 19, subject to reasonable restrictions "imposed by law in the interest of the glory of Islam or the integrity, security or defence of Pakistan..., friendly relations with foreign States, public order, decency or morality, or in relation to contempt of court, commission of or incitement to an offence" (158). The Constitution does not recognize the freedom of information as a right. Whether the courts would recognize the right as inherent in, and a part of, the freedom of expression, is yet to be tested. The State has exercised the power to restrict freedom of expression and access to information through laws in both civil and criminal jurisdictions. Restrictions apply generally, and special provisions are made for regulating the exercise of this freedom by associations (159) and channels of mass communication.


While nowhere does the Constitution restrict the right of the non-Muslim population to vote for the Muslim seats in the National Assembly, this section of the population has been denied the right to vote in four successive general elections. The Constitution does not provide for the general elections for the provincial assemblies to be contested only by Muslim candidates. Yet non-Muslims have not been allowed to contest these seats. The Election Commission presumed the intent of the Constitution and made arrangements under the various laws for preparing electoral rolls, delimitation of constituencies and regulation of electoral procedures which denied the non-Muslim population the right to participate. The presumption was so widespread that these arrangements were not even challenged (191).


Denial of the right to participate is not only based on religious differences. A section of the population, living in areas for which there exist special administrative and legal arrangements, suffered total disenfranchisement for fifty years. Territories comprising Pakistan include Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA). The Constitution does not provide for adult franchise or the same system of representation for these areas. Seats in the National Assembly are allocated to each Province, FATA and the Federal Capital on the basis of population. Clause (6) of Article 51 of the Constitution enables the President to make such arrangements as he may think fit for filling the seats allocated to FATA. In exercise of this power, The Preparation of Electoral Rolls (Federally Administered Tribal Areas) Order was promulgated in 1975. Franchise under this Order was restricted to Maliks, who are persons receiving government allowances for keeping peace in these areas. These are a carry-over from the colonial period. Maliks are now the ruling elite in the Tribal Areas and wield tremendous power over the general population. Members of the National Assembly were elected by this electoral college while the general population was totally excluded from the process of elections, both as voters and as candidates. This changed in 1997, as mentioned earlier in this section.

So the Hindus, FATA people and non-muslims in Pakistan are being oppressed by Muslim Pakistan from their basic rights. Are they qualified for a freedom struggle??

http://www.ichrdd.ca/english/commdoc/publications/demDev/pakistan/pakistanddeng6.html

Aryan
15 Jun 04,, 01:50
Lets see the freedom movements in em..
Balochistan :
http://www.balochvoice.com/Balochvoice_Press_release_16-6-02.html
http://www.balochunity.org/index.php?unity+&did=409

Sindh:
http://www.sindhlink.net/wsc/aboutwsc.htm
http://www.thesindh.com/Articles/PakistanandFederalism.asp

NWFProvince:
They already follow taliban styled rules on dress, women's freedom of movement and public entertainment.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2685151.stm
http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/pak030603.html

FATA:
Pakistan troops are getting killed now and then by the tribals. I'm skeptical whether Govt of Pakistan can wield its power in FATA.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1711316.stm

Tribals aren't actually responsible, its just people on the payroll of sardars. All the Indian


Where did you get this info from? Pakistani govt website?? Dalits are not dravidians.

Dalits are the descendants of dravidians, just like Brahmin are the descendants of Aryans.


Thats my home state, and I dont see Indian Military oppressing people fighting for self determination.

http://www.sinhala.net/News/20040206/Tamil%20separatists%20promote%20division%20of%20In dia.htm

There is a really big Tamil community where I live, every single one I've met is anti-Sri Lankan and anti-hindi. They tell me about how they have their own film industry and music, and yet hindi speaking northerners impose their language and whatnot.


Are you getting desperate?? Other than Pakistan govt source read some neutral news articles. They are asking for a seperate state with in India. :biggrin:

Find me a Pakistani government source that has information on these things

I'm a little short of time to find a site, but I know the PWG (Peoples' War Group) are one of the rebel group operating there. Do a google search for them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3788377.stm


Yep, half of Punjab is in Pakistan, so I need to include this "freedom" movement in Pakistan's list. :biggrin:

Another wet dream...


NLFT and BLT has already announced truce with the IA. The remaining main terror org is ULFA of Assam.
Thats because you've been massacring the people and they can no longer fight militarily. They need a truce to build up their resistance again.

Jay
15 Jun 04,, 03:26
Tribals aren't actually responsible, its just people on the payroll of sardars. All the Indian
Yep, Pakistan is broke, its bcoz of India ! You just proved that you are paranoid!!


Dalits are the descendants of dravidians, just like Brahmin are the descendants of Aryans.
Humans descended from monkey.


There is a really big Tamil community where I live, every single one I've met is anti-Sri Lankan and anti-hindi. They tell me about how they have their own film industry and music, and yet hindi speaking northerners impose their language and whatnot.
tsk...tsk...Tamil Nadu is in India. You are talking to somebody who belongs there!!


Find me a Pakistani government source that has information on these things
So where did you pull all your info from??



I'm a little short of time to find a site, but I know the PWG (Peoples' War Group) are one of the rebel group operating there. Do a google search for them.
Do me a favour and do a google search. Telangana Rashtriya Samithi wants a separate Telangana state with in India. I guess you do know english and can google. PWG is a maoist group, that has nothing to do with Telangana and they dont demand a seperate homeland like Balochis or Sindhis.


Another wet dream...
You mean to say that Punjab wasnt divided in to East and west??


Thats because you've been massacring the people and they can no longer fight militarily. They need a truce to build up their resistance again.
Nice Pakistani logic, we dont do blanket pardons. They just had a recent elections to choose their council members.

Ray
15 Jun 04,, 09:54
Aryan,

I find one of your posts which claims something obnoxious about Dalits etc missing on this thread.

Do forgive me, sir, but you have a racist streak which is really upsetting.

Let me amplify so that I am not misunderstood.

1. You claim that you are a Brahmin. To me, that is immateiral so long as you are a decent human being. It is nothing great to be a Brahmin. Just to put the record straight, I too can claim so (though technically it would not be so as is your case), but I rather not since it does not elevate me amongst the average non racist or casteist relics of the past like you. Let me assure you that folks who have insecurities, try to clutch at straws like caste, religion and thing like that.. In this context may I add that it is a matter of pride for Indians that our President is a Moslem and a is from the fisherman caste (and so a Dalit). He was elected by the Hindu BJP Party! Thats secularism for you. Please learn and stop this caste and the 'skin bleach' insanity that seems have afflicted you.

2. You claim that you are British born and an European. Good for you. Your Balti connection is relegated as a footnote. Sad. Note that there was an article quoting a British book that Chengiz Khan had prolifically planted his seeds around Central Asia and elsewhere including you know where. I am too embarrassed to state it. Could it be that the skin is not white but a shade of yellow?

3. I have commanded a Dalit unit when I was in the Army. I have eaten with them from the same plate and table if you wish. Therefore, being a Brahmin, am I violated? NO. But to you, I would have been violated. May I request you to look at reality? I am proud of being a secular man as many Indians are; caste and religion is secondary or even immaterial.

4. My men in my unit have been Dalits and I sure object your sleight of hand by calling them 'black' in a deregatory way. If I am black, who cares. But dont hold it against me. And Dalits are not black. Remember the Pronce of Morrocco from Shakespeare? He said - Dislike me not for my complexion, for I am near bred to the burnished sun! Even the whites are proud of a tan even if you are not proud of your natural tan.

If there is something amiss in my country, I sure would appreciate your pointing it out and why not? If there is something wrong and you point it out, I would like to do my wee bit to rectify it, if I can. To be an ostrich is no good. But racist calptrap is just not on.

Note this also. You criticise the British and the whites. You have blinkers on, to say the least. Brigitte Bardot has been fined for an innocuous sentence in her books on Moslems for 'inciting' racism. Yet, they are tolerant to all the Mullahs and terrorists who are teeming in their countries. I find it odd, but then you have to give credit to them for their tolerance. The same tolerance is not shown in Asia and more so in Pakistan! In your country you imprison Christians for throwing garbage near a mosque. Note: NEAR a mosque!

If you even observe this forum. They are also tolerant, except some. Lets learn from them.

Goodbye sir.

Jay
15 Jun 04,, 16:02
Did i missed some Nazi quotes here?? :confused:

Aryan
15 Jun 04,, 17:58
Aryan,

I find one of your posts which claims something obnoxious about Dalits etc missing on this thread.

Do forgive me, sir, but you have a racist streak which is really upsetting.

Let me amplify so that I am not misunderstood.

[QUOTE]You claim that you are a Brahmin. To me, that is immateiral so long as you are a decent human being. It is nothing great to be a Brahmin. Just to put the record straight, I too can claim so (though technically it would not be so as is your case), but I rather not since it does not elevate me amongst the average non racist or casteist relics of the past like you. Let me assure you that folks who have insecurities, try to clutch at straws like caste, religion and thing like that.

I never made such a claim. The caste system was imposed when Aryans expanded from Pakistan into India, it was a system used to preserve Aryan racial identity, and although not as popular today as it has been, it has been effective. I don't necessarily agree with it, but as an anthropologist I find it very interesting, and thats why I read about it and like to discuss it.


In this context may I add that it is a matter of pride for Indians that our President is a Moslem and a is from the fisherman caste (and so a Dalit). He was elected by the Hindu BJP Party! Thats secularism for you. Please learn and stop this caste and the 'skin bleach' insanity that seems have afflicted you.

Secularism? I thought we were talking about the caste sytem. Wait, it must be that "prove India is secular" programmed into Indians. The point I was making was Brahmins are disproportionately placed in Indian governmental and other adminstrative roles. I read the figures yesterday but can't seem to find it now, but it said something to that effect. One more thing, I'm consider myself a man of science, and something such as skin colour aloneis a very crude and superficial way of identifying or class. Its entirely possible to find more racial differences between two men of the same colour than two men of a different colour. Skin colour is only a single phenotype.


2. You claim that you are British born and an European. Good for you. Your Balti connection is relegated as a footnote. Sad. Note that there was an article quoting a British book that Chengiz Khan had prolifically planted his seeds around Central Asia and elsewhere including you know where. I am too embarrassed to state it. Could it be that the skin is not white but a shade of yellow?

Mongols did occupy and pass through Gilgit, and Ghenghis was known for his sexual promiscuity. But the chances that I descended from such a name is unfortunately very unlikely. I don't consider myself "white" for your information.


3. I have commanded a Dalit unit when I was in the Army. I have eaten with them from the same plate and table if you wish. Therefore, being a Brahmin, am I violated? NO. But to you, I would have been violated. May I request you to look at reality? I am proud of being a secular man as many Indians are; caste and religion is secondary or even immaterial.

Its great you think that way, but would you admit that many in India feel otherwise, and there is a massive discrepancy in numbers of Brahmins and Dalits, for instance, in government ranks? And I'm not talking about the top one or two, I'm talking about the rank and file, the main body.


4. My men in my unit have been Dalits and I sure object your sleight of hand by calling them 'black' in a deregatory way. If I am black, who cares. But dont hold it against me. And Dalits are not black. Remember the Pronce of Morrocco from Shakespeare? He said - Dislike me not for my complexion, for I am near bred to the burnished sun! Even the whites are proud of a tan even if you are not proud of your natural tan.

Hey, I've got nothing wrong with black people or blacks if thats what you are implying. I've never referred to dalits as blacks, as I think skin colour is a very poor way of assigning race (see above). The reference I made was a direct copy from a dalit website, I just forgot to add the quotation marks.


If there is something amiss in my country, I sure would appreciate your pointing it out and why not? If there is something wrong and you point it out, I would like to do my wee bit to rectify it, if I can. To be an ostrich is no good. But racist calptrap is just not on.


Note this also. You criticise the British and the whites. You have blinkers on, to say the least. Brigitte Bardot has been fined for an innocuous sentence in her books on Moslems for 'inciting' racism. Yet, they are tolerant to all the Mullahs and terrorists who are teeming in their countries. I find it odd, but then you have to give credit to them for their tolerance. The same tolerance is not shown in Asia and more so in Pakistan! In your country you imprison Christians for throwing garbage near a mosque. Note: NEAR a mosque!

I'm suprised you wrote this, because I've never claimed British or "whites" (note: I would never make such a generalised racial statement such as that). I feel one of the reasons why the developed world has succeeded where others have failed(such as south Asia) is their willingness to tolerate or accomodate others. Tolerance is something we need to take seriously if we wish to develop and emulate their success. Of course that doesn't mean the developed world is perfect, they have their weaknesses and flaws, and it doesn't mean they have always been tolerant. Its actually been a very recent phenomenon, and a byproduct of centuries of introspection and change.

Oh I've just found a few more Indian independence movements,

Gujarat
Rajputana
Oriya
Maratha Hindutva

When I get some spare time I'll create a map of how the Indian subcontinent ought to look like, or may look like in the future, and compare it with what it was supposed to be in 1947 the "two nation theory".

Jay, I'll edit my post and remove to anything offensive and agree not to do so in the future, but on the condition you promise you discuss constructively and not to just paint Pakistan in a negative light, like the comments you made in the indian nuclear scientist thread.

Jay
15 Jun 04,, 20:46
Secularism? I thought we were talking about the caste sytem. Wait, it must be that "prove India is secular" programmed into Indians. The point I was making was Brahmins are disproportionately placed in Indian governmental and other adminstrative roles
We have multitude of castes and religions. People are NOT discriminated based on caste, creed or religion, and in India thats collectively known as Secularism.

Brahmins were disproportionately placed by the British for thier adminstrative purposes. After independence our founding fathers tooks so much pain to correct this imbalance. We have positive discrimination for these people in every aspect of life from health to education to employment to legislative/parliment representation.


One more thing, I'm consider myself a man of science, and something such as skin colour aloneis a very crude and superficial way of identifying or class.
In all your previous posts, you seem to have a fix with color, you were always talking about fair colored aryans.


Mongols did occupy and pass through Gilgit, and Ghenghis was known for his sexual promiscuity. But the chances that I descended from such a name is unfortunately very unlikely. I don't consider myself "white" for your information.
The latest article from BBC says Gengiz Khan has 16m descendants. It may be still dormant in some cases. So I dont know how fortunate or unfortunate you are, and honestly I dont care.


Its great you think that way, but would you admit that many in India feel otherwise, and there is a massive discrepancy in numbers of Brahmins and Dalits, for instance, in government ranks? And I'm not talking about the top one or two, I'm talking about the rank and file, the main body.
Mostly, the illetrate people think that way. We have positive dicriminations for these people for last 56 years and the quota is being utilized fully. You cannot change 300 years of wrong doing in a day.


The reference I made was a direct copy from a dalit website, I just forgot to add the quotation marks.
May be you might need to know some netiquette. Any one can write anything in internet. Its up to use your prerogation to decide whats true and whats not. Then you should not complain when somebody posts from SATribune.


I feel one of the reasons why the developed world has succeeded where others have failed(such as south Asia) is their willingness to tolerate or accomodate others. Tolerance is something we need to take seriously if we wish to develop and emulate their success.
What was USA's tolerance rate to African Americans and Chinese?? Same thing happened in Britain and Australia. IMHO Canada is the only tolerant country to all (immigrants). So this has nothing to do with financial development, its all about our social development.So as a society we all need tolerance.



Gujarat
Rajputana
Oriya
Maratha Hindutva
When I get some spare time I'll create a map of how the Indian subcontinent ought to look like, or may look like in the future, and compare it with what it was supposed to be in 1947 the "two nation theory".

I can return the same favor for Pakistan, based on my earlier post, out of 4 Pakistani provinces, all 3 of them wants independence from Punjab. So in my opinion, just seperate all the Pakistani provinces in to seperate countries, thats how it ought to look like. Balchois have nothing in common with Sindhis, who intrun has nothing in common with Punjabis. Pathans and Sindhis are totally different, so they all need seperate countries.


Jay, I'll edit my post and remove to anything offensive and agree not to do so in the future, but on the condition you promise you discuss constructively and not to just paint Pakistan in a negative light, like the comments you made in the indian nuclear scientist thread.
Its all tit for tat comments. I don't purposely masqurade Pakistan.

Aryan
15 Jun 04,, 22:24
Brahmins were disproportionately placed by the British for thier adminstrative purposes. After independence our founding fathers tooks so much pain to correct this imbalance. We have positive discrimination for these people in every aspect of life from health to education to employment to legislative/parliment representation.

Ah, positive discrimination! You mean like you oppress the whole nation, so to make up you "positively discriminate" lets say, get an enuch muslim president. Positive discrimination is a lot of bullshit. Btw you still haven't accounted for the disproportionate presence of Brahmins now.


In all your previous posts, you seem to have a fix with color, you were always talking about fair colored aryans.
More baboon lies. I've never mentioned anything about Aryans being fair-skinned. Its all just a ****** fantasy.


Mostly, the illetrate people think that way. We have positive dicriminations for these people for last 56 years and the quota is being utilized fully. You cannot change 300 years of wrong doing in a day.

"illetrate" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Most of the people I've met are graduates who came to the west looking for jobs, hardly "illetrate".
If something bad continued to exist for 56 years it would seem that the government wasn't doing much about it, or what they were doing wasn't effective.


May be you might need to know some netiquette. Any one can write anything in internet. Its up to use your prerogation to decide whats true and whats not. Then you should not complain when somebody posts from SATribune.

Use my "prerogation"? How would I do that? Is it the same way you are "illetrate"? :redface:
Constructive criticism is one thing, I'm a critic of many of our policies, but being a traitor is another. Jumping on any anti nation bandwagon, even if it involves the fabrication or propagation of lies, equates to treason.


What was USA's tolerance rate to African Americans and Chinese?? Same thing happened in Britain and Australia. IMHO Canada is the only tolerant country to all (immigrants). So this has nothing to do with financial development, its all about our social development.So as a society we all need tolerance.

:biggrin: Whats a tolerance rate? Is it a quantifiable value?
How can you say America is intolerant? Sure it has flaws, but its still a tolerant society. Afterall, didn't they accept you?


I can return the same favor for Pakistan, based on my earlier post, out of 4 Pakistani provinces, all 3 of them wants independence from Punjab. So in my opinion, just seperate all the Pakistani provinces in to seperate countries, thats how it ought to look like. Balchois have nothing in common with Sindhis, who intrun has nothing in common with Punjabis. Pathans and Sindhis are totally different, so they all need seperate countries.

What qualifies you to say any of that? Pathans, Punjabis and all the other major racial groups are similar. Historically they were all largely linked together and ruled as one. So a modern Pakistani nation needs to reflect this. Thats why Bangladesh. And you can't compare the Indian/Soviet created and supported separatist movements with the indigneous separatist movements that occur in India.


Its all tit for tat comments. I don't purposely masqurade Pakistan.
Oh so it just comes naturally, I take it?

Jay
16 Jun 04,, 00:44
Ah, positive discrimination! You mean like you oppress the whole nation, so to make up you "positively discriminate" lets say, get an enuch muslim president. Positive discrimination is a lot of bullshit. Btw you still haven't accounted for the disproportionate presence of Brahmins now.
No, Republic of India never oppressed any of her citizen unlike Pakistan which didnt give equal rights to its citizens. If you can read, I just tol ya. Brahmins were employed by the british and so the disproportionate presence. But in last 56 years quota system is being effectively utilized by the dalit people.

Okay why dont you post your stats that says brahmins are occupying all the administrative positions?? eh? Positive discrmination may be bullshit for Pakistan, where military leaders are omnipresent everywhere helping the needy people. But for democracies like India or USA we need positive discriminative policies to help out the depressed segment of the population.


More baboon lies. I've never mentioned anything about Aryans being fair-skinned. Its all just a ****** fantasy.
what more can I say?? pig lies ?? do take a look at your posts in the pics thread.


"illetrate" Most of the people I've met are graduates who came to the west looking for jobs, hardly "illetrate".
And they said, aryan aryan, we've been discriminated in India, please take us to land of pure so we'll be treated equally?? :biggrin: :biggrin: got any proof? uncles-mama's-sisters-illegal-son's-second wife story aint gonna work here.

Wanna know about oppression ?? I'll show you them..

The Constitution of Pakistan guarantees the freedom of expression through Article 19, subject to reasonable restrictions "imposed by law in the interest of the glory of Islam or the integrity, security or defence of Pakistan...,

The Election Commission presumed the intent of the Constitution and made arrangements under the various laws for preparing electoral rolls, delimitation of constituencies and regulation of electoral procedures which denied the non-Muslim population the right to participate.

Denial of the right to participate is not only based on religious differences. A section of the population, living in areas for which there exist special administrative and legal arrangements, suffered total disenfranchisement for fifty years. Territories comprising Pakistan include Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA).
want to learn more?? May be the Balochis in Sui will give you a good lesson that you wont forget.


If something bad continued to exist for 56 years it would seem that the government wasn't doing much about it, or what they were doing wasn't effective.
Something bad exist on the minds of bigots (no i'm not talking about you). The govt is doing what its supposed to do. We dont have military junta controlling us, we do voice our opinions in our votes, not by some tinpot puppet challenging our constituition.

May be we need to take a lesson or two. How did you guys managed to deny citizenship for 200,000 people that were desolated in Bangladesh?? Oh well, for a country who forgot the services of their sons and disowned their bodies, it aint a big deal, right?

Use my "prerogation"? How would I do that? Is it the same way you are "illetrate"?
I didnt know that you didnt have your sixth sense. Sorry, my bad!


Whats a tolerance rate? Is it a quantifiable value?
Ofcourse, theoritically it can be quanitified.


How can you say America is intolerant? Sure it has flaws, but its still a tolerant society. Afterall, didn't they accept you?
I never said America is intolerant. I said racial prejuduce exist everywhere. Ofcourse they accepted me coz I dont tie a bomb around my waist and cry glory for islam nor I have a madrassa phd. Actually that makes me think that Britain is far more tolerant than any other country, they do allow terrorists to reside and dictate their life to the natives.


What qualifies you to say any of that? Pathans, Punjabis and all the other major racial groups are similar. Historically they were all largely linked together and ruled as one
The same qualification that you have. The Sindhis, Pathans and Balochis seem to disagree you. So Pathans were historically ruled by Pakjabi ?? :rolleyes: whats next baltis ruled the whole galaxy ??

Ray
16 Jun 04,, 05:11
Aryan.

Read your posts. You make 'flip flop-ism' a fine art! You are indeed an archetypical 'man of all seasons'.

You stated you are an Aryan and white and that Indians are black etc. On a query you stated that you could be called European since you are genetically an Aryan and white. Thereafter started the stuff about Nazis and Aryans.

Since you are an anthropologist, it would still make no difference to anyone if you go and trace which branch of the primates you descend from. It may satisfy your ego.

I could not get what you are trying to state by claiming that Rajastan, Gujerat et al are 'independence movements'. They are States of the Union of India and governed by their own people. It is like stating Florida or Texas are independence movements! Your general knowledge seems to be frozen by the cold of Baltistan when you visited there!;)

You criticised the British for making 'artificial' nations. I asked you to look at their good points which we in India have imbibed and were not imbibed in Pakistan, even though we got our independence at the same time. Or was Pakistan a premature baby being born on 14th and India on the 15th? Premature babies are prone to health problems.

roshan
16 Jun 04,, 19:27
I support the independence of all the oppressed peoples of the world.

Ray
16 Jun 04,, 20:10
I support the independence of all the oppressed peoples of the world.

Good for you.

roshan
16 Jun 04,, 20:25
Good for you.
Thanks!

Hawk_eye
16 Jun 04,, 23:49
This is so pethetic, what started off as a sensible discussion on the FATA and northern area's has ended in a name calling exercies, its rather sad to see grown men/women argue like ilttle children instead of building a sensible dialouge or platform for any discussion that may be helpful to the understanding of this troubled area.

FATA and these tribal "Agencies" have always been lawless ever since the invasion of Alexander the Great to the Empire of the British, through the russian/Afghan war all the way through to the ralibniastion of Afghanistan and Tribal/Northen Pakistan. :frown:

Now, Lets see... These people cant be trusted, they preach that they will protect anyone who enters one clans/tribes area and seeks pana and the whole tribe will be willing to goto war to defend thier honour and promise of panna to this individual. Mabye this is somthing the "Bin-laden"and his henchmen have exploited.

Secondly, there are several powerful agencies such as oragzia, and wazi, these tribes are extremely powerful and control huge armies, as an example of thier ruthlessness, once one ouragzia war lord wished to himulate a tribesmen who had "offended" him, he had his men place AA guns all around his mud compund and began firing and kept firing for three days continusly, and this is just to humilate someone who didnt please him. Just imagine how they would react to someon who wishes to disolve thier authority? They are fearsome fighters and most of them are brought-up with guns in thier hands, once on a visit to Khyber Agency i saw a group of six year old children opening shotgun and pistol cartridges with their teeth to extract the powder. " MADNESS" is the word that comes to mind.

These people consider themselfs as being a single entity and not part of Pakistan, somthing decent Pakistani's who ay taxes and work and live in Pakistan find very upsetting. They have been offered Free schooling, Goo djobs, Electricity, Gas, Development, but they always say: " We are who we are and leave us to our lives".... Its now starting to become a serious threat to Pakistani national security. These chaps are wost then the mongouls and have allowed Al-Qida to target karachi, and even infiltrate Afghan Rfugee camps... This has to stop now before the situation turns into a strom that we cannot survive.

I seriously hope that sanity prevails. For truth, Justice and Freedom!

Jay
17 Jun 04,, 00:05
Finally let Sanity prevail here :)

Hawkeye,
If I may ask, what was the reason these FATA areas didnt got absorbed in to Pakistan for the last 56 years? They got voting franchise rights as late as 1997. Whats the reason for this exclusion? Is it just they are freedom lovers and battle hardened fighters or something else??

I think this is the first time that Pakistani army is in direct confrontation with these tribals in wana and waziristan, right? Would they act tough and stop the flow of weapons in children hands or are they gonna just kill the suspected ALQ terrorists and leave the place??

Hawk_eye
17 Jun 04,, 00:24
Finally let Sanity prevail here :)

Hawkeye,
If I may ask, what was the reason these FATA areas didnt got absorbed in to Pakistan for the last 56 years? They got voting franchise rights as late as 1997. Whats the reason for this exclusion? Is it just they are freedom lovers and battle hardened fighters or something else??

I think this is the first time that Pakistani army is in direct confrontation with these tribals in wana and waziristan, right? Would they act tough and stop the flow of weapons in children hands or are they gonna just kill the suspected ALQ terrorists and leave the place??

Hi Jay, thankyou for the reply, Well the main reason is that they see them selfs as a entity on their own and refuse to recognise the authority of the Pakistani government this hostility to governance by a thier party has always been in thier hisotry like i explained they fought Alexander, the repelled the British, the helped the afghan war against russia, and they welcomed their old bothers in arms "the taliban" with open arms when they were escaping from afghanistan after their fall at the hands of the coalition and the Northern alliance. They are very simple people but they cannot be trusted because they themslefs boast of how they tricked british officers by taking bribes to join their sides only to turn their rifles agianst them when the combat began, they are snakes... No a better word would be rattle snakes.

Belive it or not, this is the first time ever in our history that the Pakistani Army has taken any such action against these people since our creation, there is more to it then meets the eye, because these people damage essential gas pipelines and outreach projects in the region, and this is all damaging our overall security and stability and now they are starting to infect our cities, this cannot be allowed, for the survival of Pakistan. The Government now knows this and has finally decided that this madness must come to an end. These idiots need to be pointed in the right direction and need to be shown how powerful the pen is compared to the bullet or sword.We all are praying that we succeed.

Killing AlQ and leaving this place would not solve the problem, the problem is the tribesmen and thier attitude. God willing ofcourse. :D

Ray
17 Jun 04,, 02:45
Thanks for your post, Hawk Eye.

One knows about the tribals' fierce loyalties and the issue of honour to protect those who are seek their hospitality. They have held this type of a mentality throughout the times and the the British Indian administration are well aware, as also their Army of that time.

However, they will not change overnight.

Since this is the case in these areas, the same is also applicable to Afghanistan. Therefore, unless something is done and done fast, there will be no chance of any semblance of govt in Afghanistan nor of the complete writ of Pakistan ruling in their respective areas. What is being done (apart from the military action) to bring them into the political mainstream and what is planned to be done? It is obvious that military action will not yield the results in a long term manner.

I wonder why, as you bring out, they don't want education, electricity, clean water, medical facilities etc. Does the national TV beam into these areas? How many see it, if indeed it does? Don't national political leaders visit them and impress upon them the advantage of modern life? In these tribal areas of Pakistan I am sure they have the tribal councils in the form of the Loya Jirga. Can these Loya Jirga chieftains not be brought to understand the modern society benefits without abidcating their way of life?

What effort has been made by succcessive govt to 'educate' these areas into modernity and what are the reasons that the govt has made any effort so far to ensure that the writ of the govt runs from the day there wa independence?

Indeed it is unfortunate that from Post # 4, the issue got rather skewed.

In post #3, I had requested to know what is the Mehtar rule that was abolished in 1972 of Mr Asim since he said that it was a good thing. Could one explain this please?

Hawk_eye
17 Jun 04,, 04:01
Thanks for your post, Hawk Eye.

One knows about the tribals' fierce loyalties and the issue of honour to protect those who are seek their hospitality. They have held this type of a mentality throughout the times and the the British Indian administration are well aware, as also their Army of that time.

However, they will not change overnight.

Since this is the case in these areas, the same is also applicable to Afghanistan. Therefore, unless something is done and done fast, there will be no chance of any semblance of govt in Afghanistan nor of the complete writ of Pakistan ruling in their respective areas. What is being done (apart from the military action) to bring them into the political mainstream and what is planned to be done? It is obvious that military action will not yield the results in a long term manner.

I wonder why, as you bring out, they don't want education, electricity, clean water, medical facilities etc. Does the national TV beam into these areas? How many see it, if indeed it does? Don't national political leaders visit them and impress upon them the advantage of modern life? In these tribal areas of Pakistan I am sure they have the tribal councils in the form of the Loya Jirga. Can these Loya Jirga chieftains not be brought to understand the modern society benefits without abidcating their way of life?

What effort has been made by succcessive govt to 'educate' these areas into modernity and what are the reasons that the govt has made any effort so far to ensure that the writ of the govt runs from the day there wa independence?

Indeed it is unfortunate that from Post # 4, the issue got rather skewed.

In post #3, I had requested to know what is the Mehtar rule that was abolished in 1972 of Mr Asim since he said that it was a good thing. Could one explain this please?

Dear ray,

Nice to speak to you again, in response to your questions, the government is already operating outreach projects asi stated above, but these have been hampered by terrorist attacks, secondly they have so far refused to compromise on thier own way of life, but atleast accept that you have to modernise, but no these people are stiff as sticks, they wont budge. The play us like fools, one day telling us that they are out attacking suspected Al-Quida and the second day they aresaying that they got away, for your information the Loya Jirga is no more then an army raised to combat a threat, so that should tell you that this race of people are martial and thier culture revolves around conflict.

The musharaff government has despretly tried to reach out to these people in the tribal belts but like i said before they are very stubborn and feel that outsiders are dishonest and wish to do them harm, having dealt with them on a personal basis, they are generally very weary of outsiders so much so that they will refuse to recognise any other pushtun from Pakistan unless he is from the tribal belts, what nonsense, so according to them lthe 4 million pushtun's living in peshawar are not pushtuns?

As far as the Methar rule is concerned, well its a long story so its better if you read the small story bellow:

The Early history of Chitral is shrouded in mystery.This mountainous country which was first referred to as Kohistan or land of the mountains was said to be inhabited by a race called "Khows" speaking a separate language Khowar, or language of the Khows. Some people say that it was Khowistan - the abode of the Khows. Separate parts of the country came to be called Torkhow - Upper Khow, Mulkhow - Lower Khow, names which persist to the present day. An early Sanskrit inscription at a village called Barenis (27 miles away from Chitral) of about AD 900 records that the country was Buddhist, under King Jaipal of Kabul. It is believed that Upper Chitral was under Buddhist influence in the past and even today there are a few rocks in Torkhow area known as "Kalandar-i-Bohtni" (Mendicant of Stone). It is a figure of a stupa; the upper part of which has been cut into the figure of Buddha and may be of Chinese origin. No records of this period exist.

Marco Polo, who passed through the Pamirs, referred to the country as Bolor. History relates that first a Chinese army and then an Arab (Mongols?) army invaded Chitral from the north by the Broghal pass when the upper part of the country is said to have been converted to Islam. The southern district remained non-Muslim till very late and were then converted to Islam. A Mongol tribe called Yarkhuns invaded Chitral via the Broghal pass and may have given their name to the Yarkun valley. They were opposed by Somalek, leader of the Khows. Another incursion is attributed to Changez Khan and his Tartars.

Chitral nevertheless has remained an independent state for centuries with its own culture and language. In the late nineteenth century it became part of British India. It was a princely state in 1947, which acceded to Pakistan in that year. The rule of the Mehtar came to an end in 1954 and power was henceforth exercised by the political agent posted at Chitral. The state was merged into Pakistan in 1969. The recorded history of Chitral is divided into six epochs as follows:

Iranian rule
The Achemeanian Empire of Persia was extended to these regions during 400 BC. Its more than two thousand years since this empire receded but its supremacy was so strongly established that many Persian cultural traits are still in practice in Northern Areas as well as few parts of Chitral. In some valleys surrounding Chitral such as Wakhan, Shaghnan, and upper parts of Chitral people speak Persian language. Even Khowar, which is the native language of the local people (Khow), contains much borrowing from Persian.

Zoroastrianism, an Old Persian religion, has also left behind some of its traces in this area. Traditions also tell about leaving of dead bodies unburied in caves in the wilderness or in the hollow of trees. Such practices were specific in this religion. A festival on 21st March (Nouroz) the first day in Persian calendar still prevails in Chitral. It is celebrated in few valleys every year. (Israr Chitral A historical sketch)

Kushan rule
The Kushan dynasty established its rule in this area in 200 AD. In the second century Kanishka the most powerful emperor of Kushan dynasty had extended his rule all over Northern India, probably as far as south Vindyas and all over the remote region up to Khotan beyond the Pamir pass.

Chinese rule
The Chinese extended their influence in the 4th century AD and remained in power until the 8th century. The rock inscription of Pakhtoridini near Maroi refers to Chinese rule. Another inscription in Barenis refers to the Kushans. According to Sir Aurel Stien, the inscription says that Jivarman ordered to make the pertinent drawing of a stupa. Such rock carvings have created confusion for writers like Buddulph and many others to believe that Chitral formed part of the last Hindu Shahi ruler of Kabul. It's also believed that the northern parts had embraced Islam by the end of 9th century when Arabs defeated Bahman, chief of the country. By the time of withdrawal of Arabs many people had accepted Islam. (Souvenir, 2nd Hindukush Cultural Conference, p.19-21)

Kalash rule
In the 11th century AD southern Chitral was invaded by the Kalash from Afghanistan, who occupied the country as far to the North as Barenis village, while the upper parts were under another chief Sumalik. some Kalash Chiefs Rojawai, such as Nagar Shah and Bala sing ruled Southern Chitral from 11th to 13th centuries A.D.

Rais rule
In the beginning of 11th century Shah Nadir Rais occupied southern Chitral and defeated the Kalash. Shah Nadir Rais extended his dominion from Gilgit to the present southern boundaries of Chitral. Rais family ruled over Chitral for about three hundred years when
Katura family succeeded them.

During the Rais rule in Chitral its boundaries extended from Narsut in the extreme south of the state to Gilgit in the east. The rulers had an effective council of chiefs of the local tribes to run the affairs of the country. The ruler of this family also worked for the dissemination of the teachings of Islam in the state.

There were no regular state forces to defend the state frontiers so the local headmen and chiefs called all the persons of their tribes to fight for the state under the collective defense system. The Mehtar (ruler) had friendly relations with the rulers of surrounding countries. (Baig, Hindu Kush study series vol. two)

Katur rule
The Katur succeeded the Rais dynasty in 1595. Muhtaram Shah I was the founder of Kature rule in Chitral, whose descendants ruled over Chitral until 1969 when the State was merged as a district of NWFP.


During the rule of Amirul Mulk in 1895, Umra Khan the chief of Jandool crossed the Lawari pass and invaded lower Chitral. As a result, there was fierce fighting in which the Mehtar of Chitral and British officers were besieged in Chitral fort for 42 days. Troops from Gilgit and Nowshera came to the rescue of the besieged fort and the British rule was extended over entire Chitral in April 1895. Shuja ul Mulk emerged as the ruler after the war who ruled for 42 years until 1936.



During the Pakistan movement there was a campaign in Chitral in favor of independence. The people backed all India Muslim League and Mehtar Muzafarul Mulk openly declared his backing to the Pakistan movement. In May 1947 H.H. Muzafarul Mulk informed the Viceroy about his intention to join the new state of Pakistan. The accession instrument was signed on November 7, 1947.

lexxwern
17 Jun 04,, 04:52
Roshan,

The claim for independent Balwaristan is directly contradictory to Indian territorial claims. One thing India should not do is lose her integrity, remember we are not Pakistan.

We won't support Balwaristan just to bleed Pakistan, cuz we realize it'll hit us back in the future. Pakistan are realizing this in a bad way now.

Ray
17 Jun 04,, 08:31
Hawkeye,

Thanks. It was immensely kind of you to take time out from your busy schedule to give the details.

It is a pleasure to have learnt from your post, which was real concise and yet carried good info.

Thanks once again.

Hawk_eye
17 Jun 04,, 13:04
Hawkeye,

Thanks. It was immensely kind of you to take time out from your busy schedule to give the details.

It is a pleasure to have learnt from your post, which was real concise and yet carried good info.

Thanks once again.

No problem, i hope i was able to shed some light on the subject, if you need anything else regarding this issue just let me know, and thankyou for your gratitude. It is very warmly appricated. :)

Aryan
17 Jun 04,, 15:02
One more to the list:

Goa www.freegoa.com

Ray
17 Jun 04,, 18:32
Aryan,

Thank you for the link.

What about the links to the other 'movments' that you have quoted. I am interested.

visioninthedark
17 Jun 04,, 18:35
Ray,

this is an absurd post started by you .... Aryan is himself Baltistani and Shia .... like me Kashmiri and Shia .... please don't try to be "more catholic than the pope" and try to sympathize with our issues for personal point scoring and nothing more .... you are NOT even a muslim .... and what happens to shias .... doesn't bother you in the least .... so don't pretend ....

and our parts of kashmir have PERMENANT OFFICES for organizations such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International since 30-50 years .... and they are free to walk about by themselves and talk to anyone and report anything ..... uunlike the restrictions or bans that india puts on them on the indian side of Kashmir .... as they have REPEATEDLY REPORTED THEMSELVES .... I suggest you check out their site ....

If this were a true movement .... it would have been reported by independent organizations like those with repute mentioned above .... BUT IT HAS NOT EVER .... so all I can say is that these are the antics of some Indian teenagers sitting in their basement frothing with orgasmic excitement at the big service they have done their perverted little mentalities .....

Jay
17 Jun 04,, 22:40
you are NOT even a muslim .... and what happens to shias .... doesn't bother you in the least .... so don't pretend ....
Vision, many a times you've posted things about India, that has anything to do with Pakistan! This is a discussion forum and so people are discussing it,.


and our parts of kashmir have PERMENANT OFFICES for organizations such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International since 30-50 years .... and they are free to walk about by themselves and talk to anyone and report anything ..... uunlike the restrictions or bans that india puts on them on the indian side of Kashmir .... as they have REPEATEDLY REPORTED THEMSELVES
Amnesty International has continously scathed India in their reports. Their movement is not not restricted. This excerpt is from 2004 Country report...


There were continuing reports of human rights abuses by armed opposition groups against civilians. In Jammu and Kashmir human rights abuses by militants persisted at a high level with a reported 344 civilians killed in targeted or indiscriminate violence by armed groups in the period from January to the end of November. On 24 March armed men shot dead 24 Kashmiri Pandits, including 11 women and two children, in the village of Nadimarg.



If this were a true movement .... it would have been reported by independent organizations like those with repute mentioned above .... BUT IT HAS NOT EVER .... so all I can say is that these are the antics of some Indian teenagers sitting in their basement frothing with orgasmic excitement at the big service they have done their perverted little mentalities .....

Amnesty International's country report on Pakistan....


There was a sharp increase in sectarian violence in the second half of the year particularly in the provinces of Sindh and Balochistan. Hundreds of people were arbitrarily detained in the context of the US-led "war on terror". Human rights abuses against women, children and religious minorities continued to be ignored by the government. There were severe restrictions on freedom of expression in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP) particularly targeting musicians and artists. At least 278 people were sentenced to death and at least eight were executed.

Jay
17 Jun 04,, 22:43
Also this is from Amnesty International website...


Pakistan denies the legitimacy of the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India and has emphasized the provisional and autonomous status of Azad (free) Jammu and Kashmir, the part of Jammu and Kashmir which is under Pakistans control pending a plebiscite to determine the future of Kashmir. The Azad Jammu and Kashmir Interim Constitution Act of 1974, however, limits the right to freedom of association in the state when it says in Article 4(7)(2): No person or party in Azad Jammu and Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the States accession to Pakistan.

Prospective candidates for the 42-seat legislative assembly have to sign an affidavit declaring that they support the accession of Azad Jammu and Kashmir to Pakistan. The candidacy of nationalist candidates who favour independence for Jammu and Kashmir has been rejected in the past.This year, candidates in some 36 constituencies had their candidacy turned down by the Election Commission on these grounds. People who do not subscribe to the accession of Azad Jammu and Kashmir to Pakistan have also reportedly lost their jobs and have been denied access to educational institutions. Political parties which favour independence for Azad Jammu and Kashmir are permitted to function but cannot participate in elections to the states legislature.

Gilgit and Baltistan, directly administered by the Pakistan central government as part of the Northern Areas, do not enjoy a constitution guaranteeing fundamental rights, democratic representation or a separation of powers. People in Gilgit and Baltistan have in the past repeatedly protested against the withholding of their civil and political rights, especially the right to democratic representation.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA330051996?open&of=ENG-PAK

Hawk_eye
18 Jun 04,, 04:01
Sorry about this everyone, but please can we stick to the topic. This is not about jammu or kashmir or about the movements in india but about the situation in Pakistan.

visioninthedark
18 Jun 04,, 08:03
Also this is from Amnesty International website...



http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA330051996?open&of=ENG-PAK


YES!!!! EXACTLY ...... THANK YOU FOR PROVING MY POINT ....

Read your own last paragraph above .... they protest because we have given them special status as a DISPUTED TERRITORY i.e. they will have to wait UNTIL the final Kashmir solution ..... what they want is to be REPRESENTED IN PAKISTAN PARLIAMENT AS FULL PARTICIPATING MEMBERS .....

So what the want is to become a full part of Pakistan .... and NOT remain Disputed .... while we still consider Kashmir to be Disputed .... as PER THE UN RESOLUTIONS ....

we have NOT annexed Kashmir ..... unlike some other party that has ....

so what you quote proves the stupid falsity of the Balwaristan propaganda started by some indian bunch of freaks sitting in a dingy basement ....

Aryan
18 Jun 04,, 15:12
Baboon, you really think that I wouldn't check amnesty internation records


The cases highlighted in this campaign include children who have been sexually abused and raped by members of the armed forces in Manipur, and women who have been raped by members of the armed forces in both Assam and Manipur, for whom there has been inadequate redress

Look what your baboon army is up to.


Human rights abuses are a feature of daily life in Assam and Manipur, where armed opposition groups have long been active. Amnesty International has repeatedly raised concerns at reports of "disappearances", extra-judicial execution, and torture by government authorities in the context of security operations. The organization has also called on armed groups to adhere to the minimum standards of international humanitarian law, by calling a halt to the deliberate and arbitrary killing of civilians, torture, ill-treatment and hostage-taking.

Are these guys islamic terrorists from Pakistan as well?


Amnesty International regularly receives reports of rape and other forms of torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment by the police and members of the security forces in all regions of India. The organization has repeatedly raised these concerns with government officials.

Yeah! Long live secular ******a

In Kashmir:


Shaheen Ghulam Nabi Thokar, Secretary General of the Jammu and Kashmir High Court Bar Association and Ghulam Rassol Dar, a human rights activist, were duly accredited by the United Nations (UN) in Geneva to attend the UN Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities currently held in Geneva. Despite possessing valid travel documents, visas and accreditation documents, the two delegates were stopped on 11 August at the international airport in New Delhi. They were told that immigration officials had orders from the Government of India not to permit the two human rights defenders to leave the country.

Two years after the initial "disappearance" and subsequent unlawful killing of human rights lawyer Jalil Andrabi in March 1996, no one has been brought to justice. Though an army major was identified by an inquiry as possibly responsible for the killing, he has not been arrested.

Here's something I found very interesting:

Yesterdays hostage-taking of 19 journalists in Jammu and Kashmir highlights yet again the unacceptable situation where renegade groups --
who support the Indian Government and are backed by security forces -- are able to commit human rights abuses with impunity, Amnesty International said today.

The 19 journalists were kidnapped on 8 July in Anantnag district of Jammu and Kashmir by a so-called renegade group, the Jammu and Kashmir Ikhwan, who had threatened to kill four of them if their demands were not met. They were reportedly released 10 hours after they were kidnapped following the intervention of officers of the Rashtriya Rifles, a counter-insurgency wing of the army which allegedly sponsors the armed group. However, none of the members of Ikhwan appear to have been charged for their illegal action.
So according to this AI report, India and the Indian army actively sponsor and support terrorist groups, namely Jammu and Kashmir Ikhwan. Some democracy eh?

Jay
18 Jun 04,, 15:36
YES!!!! EXACTLY ...... THANK YOU FOR PROVING MY POINT ....
Read your own last paragraph above .... they protest because we have given them special status as a DISPUTED TERRITORY i.e. they will have to wait UNTIL the final Kashmir solution ..... what they want is to be REPRESENTED IN PAKISTAN PARLIAMENT AS FULL PARTICIPATING MEMBERS .....
So what the want is to become a full part of Pakistan .... and NOT remain Disputed .... while we still consider Kashmir to be Disputed .... as PER THE UN RESOLUTIONS ....
we have NOT annexed Kashmir ..... unlike some other party that has ....
so what you quote proves the stupid falsity of the Balwaristan propaganda started by some indian bunch of freaks sitting in a dingy basement ....

Vision, with sanity read the post again. You havent annexed it but still you APPOINT rulers to that area. You say that you fight for Kashmiri rights, but so far you have armed and support the groups that supports the accession of Kashmir to Pakistan. Isnt that skewed?? I'll post it once again, if you wish, you can read it. If you havent annexed it, then you DONT have any rights to appoint their legislature. Its not a part of Pakistan, who is Pakistan to decide their fate??


The Azad Jammu and Kashmir Interim Constitution Act of 1974, however, limits the right to freedom of association in the state when it says in Article 4(7)(2): No person or party in Azad Jammu and Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the States accession to Pakistan.

Prospective candidates for the 42-seat legislative assembly have to sign an affidavit declaring that they support the accession of Azad Jammu and Kashmir to Pakistan. The candidacy of nationalist candidates who favour independence for Jammu and Kashmir has been rejected in the past.This year, candidates in some 36 constituencies had their candidacy turned down by the Election Commission on these grounds. People who do not subscribe to the accession of Azad Jammu and Kashmir to Pakistan have also reportedly lost their jobs and have been denied access to educational institutions. Political parties which favour independence for Azad Jammu and Kashmir are permitted to function but cannot participate in elections to the states legislature.

Jay
18 Jun 04,, 15:37
Aryan, blah blah blah...long live jehadi terrorist Pakistan!!

Aryan
18 Jun 04,, 16:27
Aryan,

Thank you for the link.

What about the links to the other 'movments' that you have quoted. I am interested.

Erm, I don't have them all on me right now, I found them all on google. a few I can remember, www.dalitstan.org http://www.angelfire.com/ns/brahmin but the rest I'll give some other time.

visioninthedark
18 Jun 04,, 18:00
Jay,

Kindly read the quotes from AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL REPORTS that ARYAN has made about their comments about your occupation of Kashmir ...

even if we are guilty of "arm-twisting" .... atleast we are DEFINITELY NOT guilty of MURDER, RAPE and GENOCIDE like you Indian army as PER AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL REPORTS ... !!

Aryan
18 Jun 04,, 18:40
Yeah, and not to mention the evidence AI have uncovered linking India to sponsoring terrorist groups operating in Kashmir :D

Jay
18 Jun 04,, 19:24
Jay,

Kindly read the quotes from AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL REPORTS that ARYAN has made about their comments about your occupation of Kashmir ...

even if we are guilty of "arm-twisting" .... atleast we are DEFINITELY NOT guilty of MURDER, RAPE and GENOCIDE like you Indian army as PER AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL REPORTS ... !!

I think you got a very short memory! In 1948 Pakistani tribals were responsible for raping and murdering innocent Kashmiri civilians. In 1971 the same Pakistani forces conducted a mass GENOCIDE by killing MILLIONS of people in then East Bengal. Your righteous army killed,maimed and raped east Bengalis that pushed them to their revolt.

I even posted a report from Amnesty, which says the terrorists are responsible for killing innocent Kashmir civilians.

Now if you look at the topic heading, it says Balawaristan. Are you trying to justyfy the injustices Pakistan is doing to PoK people under an assumption that India is doing the same in J&K ?? or is it like, look at them they kill you, we aint that bad, we'll pluck your eyes or cut your hands ?? :rolleyes: Or You dont have any answers for these claims, so you are trying to run away from the topic?? Look at hawk eye's post for a change!

and btw none of us here are blind, we can perfectly read and respond to normal font sized posts:)

Confed999
18 Jun 04,, 20:41
Jay,

Kindly read the quotes from AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL REPORTS that ARYAN has made about their comments about your occupation of Kashmir ...

even if we are guilty of "arm-twisting" .... atleast we are DEFINITELY NOT guilty of MURDER, RAPE and GENOCIDE like you Indian army as PER AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL REPORTS ... !!
Funny I'm looking at Amnesty International now, and they have pages and pages of stuff on Pakistan. What you need to ask yourself is: Does my hatred of India accomplish anything? If you're intelligent your answer will be no, and you will start to try to put that hatred aside.

Asim Aquil
18 Jun 04,, 21:12
Funny I'm looking at Amnesty International now, and they have pages and pages of stuff on Pakistan. What you need to ask yourself is: Does my hatred of India accomplish anything? If you're intelligent your answer will be no, and you will start to try to put that hatred aside.

Hatred towards each other has been our downfall; for both nations. I won't say Pakistan's history is spec n clean. But these moves weren't representated by the People of Pakistan. The hudood laws, separated electorate systems, limiting womens representation in the government and so on were brought in by Mullahs and General Zia who normally we all don't support. And I agree, Murder, rape and Genocide are prevalent in Pakistan as well. Acceptance is the 1st step towards its correction.

Digging up old misgivings, gives the other person an image of someone who carries an agenda. India did what it did, bad apples are everywhere, as confed pointed out we've done our fair share of it as well.

Humans aren't like certain animals that as soon as they're born stand up on their feet, within hours start tagging along with its mother and in days learn to walk and run with the heard. Humans take their time. We're helpless at birth, takes us months before we're ready to crawl perhaps walk in an year! We stumble and fall. Our nation isn't much different from that. We'll definitely make mistakes until the day we find out footing on the ground. We learn from these mistakes. Thats what being human is all about.

Confed999
18 Jun 04,, 21:15
Hatred towards each other has been our downfall; for both nations. ...bad apples are everywhere... We'll definitely make mistakes... We learn from these mistakes. Thats what being human is all about.
Good post, thanks for adding a voice of reason.

visioninthedark
18 Jun 04,, 21:20
Funny I'm looking at Amnesty International now, and they have pages and pages of stuff on Pakistan. What you need to ask yourself is: Does my hatred of India accomplish anything? If you're intelligent your answer will be no, and you will start to try to put that hatred aside.

PLEASE COMPARE WHAT YOU READ ABOUT INDIAN ACTIONC IN KASHMIR WITH WHAT YOU READ ABOUT PAKISTAN INKkASHMIR ... DECIDE YOURSELF WITH A FREE AND OPEN MIND ...

P.S.

I am Kashmiri ... how do you expect me to love my oppressor ... I CANNOT be Jesus Christ ... and I don't believe in turning the other cheek ... I am a mere mortal human with feelings and the right to EXPRESS those felings and a RIGHT to kick out a RACIALLY AND LINGUISTICALLY FOREIGN OCCUPIER of MY land OUT ... they have NO CLAIM TO MY LAND ... neither do they claim to belong TO MY RACE or PEOPLE .... they just say they want our land to PROVE that they are secular .... what kind of secularism is this when you kill thousands of innocent civilians and your "secular" republic is built upon the bodies of innocent village folk and cemented by their blood ... ?????

I wish you wre here and one of us .... then I'd see how you'd react .....

Asim Aquil
18 Jun 04,, 21:30
PLEASE COMPARE WHAT YOU READ ABOUT INDIAN ACTIONC IN KASHMIR WITH WHAT YOU READ ABOUT PAKISTAN INKkASHMIR ... DECIDE YOURSELF WITH A FREE AND OPEN MIND ...

P.S.

I am Kashmiri ... how do you expect me to love my oppressor ... I CANNOT be Jesus Christ ... and I don't believe in turning the other cheek ... I am a mere mortal human with feelings and the right to EXPRESS those felings and a RIGHT to kick out a RACIALLY AND LINGUISTICALLY FOREIGN OCCUPIER of MY land OUT ... they have NO CLAIM TO MY LAND ... neither do they claim to belong TO MY RACE or PEOPLE .... they just say they want our land to PROVE that they are secular .... what kind of secularism is this when you kill thousands of innocent civilians and your "secular" republic is built upon the bodies of innocent village folk and cemented by their blood ... ?????

I wish you wre here and one of us .... then I'd see how you'd react .....

Vision,and what would be a solution to achieve what you want? "Kicking Indian ass?". I think it's been established over a period of 57 yrs that smacking each other on the ass is not the way forward to bring Peace in Kashmir. I'm not saying you just forget and get over with all the people who've allegedly been abused by Indians, but theres a time and place for that. Right not you, nor anyone one in Pakistan holds the right cards to play that game. It'll just lead to constant bickering and no one would get anything out of it.

You might not be Jesus Christ, but I'm guessing you're Muslim? As a muslim you can do more to follow the Prophet's #1 quality, his tolerance!

Confed999
18 Jun 04,, 21:49
how do you expect me to love my oppressor ...
First off, DON'T YELL AT ME! Secondly, you don't have to love, just not hate. If you hate them, they will hate you, there is no way around that.

Asim Aquil, I like you.

Jay
18 Jun 04,, 22:10
It'll just lead to constant bickering and no one would get anything out of it.
Thats so true!!

visioninthedark
18 Jun 04,, 23:29
in the meanwhile .... the indian army will contnue raping our women (as per AMNESTY INT), murdering our men (AS PER AMNESTY INT) and destroying MY HOMELAND .... while I am NOT supposed to do ANYTHING .....


why SHOULD WE SUFFER ..... just someone ANSWER ME THIS ... ????

why should my Kashmiri little children look at the indian soldiers standing at every streetcorner and feel frightened .... at the foreigners who speak a language that most children don't understand .... while children in Lahore and Dehli are happily hopping to school ... ???

why should my women be afraid to open the door every time there is a knock .... afraid to find a herd of indian men out to satisfy their libido .... while women in Lahore and Dehli are watching the evening soap operas??

why should my mother always worry when a loved one leaveds home in the morning NOT knowing will he get back or will the FOREIGNERS take him away with no explaination ... ???

WHY SHOUL WE NOT DECIDE WHETHER WE WANT TO BE PART OF INDIA OR PAKISTAN OR INDEPENDENT .. ???

are we less human ???? do we NOT have any VOICE????

DO WE HAVE NO RIGHTS????

ARE WE LESS THAN THE REST OF THE WORLD???

why should the world forget the tears of a Kashmiri girl whose lover was shot for FUN by drunken indian army thugs ..... while another girl in Lahore or Dehli is having a late night conversation with him on the phone ...???

WHY ...??

JUST TELL ME WHY ... ????

Confed999
19 Jun 04,, 19:52
Would those soldiers need to be there if you didn't hate?

Aryan
19 Jun 04,, 23:08
Would those soldiers need to be there if you didn't hate?
Saddam could have said the same thing to the Kurds.

Confed999
20 Jun 04,, 00:43
Saddam could have said the same thing to the Kurds.
I don't dispute that. My point is that it only makes things worse to generalize people as murderers and rapists. If someone calls you a murderer and rapist how would you feel about them? Especially when they can say the exact same thing.

visioninthedark
20 Jun 04,, 01:24
I don't dispute that. My point is that it only makes things worse to generalize people as murderers and rapists. If someone calls you a murderer and rapist how would you feel about them? Especially when they can say the exact same thing.

We are NOT generalizing ..... we are stating FACTS about the INDIAN ARMY based on AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL REPORTS!!!

Confed999
20 Jun 04,, 01:51
We are NOT generalizing ..... we are stating FACTS about the INDIAN ARMY based on AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL REPORTS!!!
AHHHH... So THEN you're SAYING that EVERY Indian ARMY soldier commited ACTS of RAPE and MURDER? If I am to GO by AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL then I am REQUIRED to look AT Pakistan AS well, and THEY have MULTIPLE listings of "ATTROCITIES" IN Kashmir, yet YOU fly their FLAG in your avatar. This tells ME that YOU are just a HATER. IF you REALLY want to LIVE under Pakistani RULE GO THERE.

{For everyone else, sorry about the shouting in that post, but I figure vision must be a bit hard of hearing due to his constant shouting. I have an Uncle like that, half deaf so he tends to shout alot just to be able to hear himself talk... ;) }

Ray
20 Jun 04,, 02:34
{For everyone else, sorry about the shouting in that post, but I figure vision must be a bit hard of hearing due to his constant shouting. I have an Uncle like that, half deaf so he tends to shout alot just to be able to hear himself talk... ;) }

:)

visioninthedark
20 Jun 04,, 17:56
AHHHH... So THEN you're SAYING that EVERY Indian ARMY soldier commited ACTS of RAPE and MURDER? If I am to GO by AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL then I am REQUIRED to look AT Pakistan AS well, and THEY have MULTIPLE listings of "ATTROCITIES" IN Kashmir, yet YOU fly their FLAG in your avatar. This tells ME that YOU are just a HATER. IF you REALLY want to LIVE under Pakistani RULE GO THERE.

{For everyone else, sorry about the shouting in that post, but I figure vision must be a bit hard of hearing due to his constant shouting. I have an Uncle like that, half deaf so he tends to shout alot just to be able to hear himself talk... ;) }

I CHALLENGE YOU TO QUOTE ME ABOUT ANY EXTRA-JUDICIAL KILLINGS, RAPE, TORTURE, DISSAPPEARANCES AND THE LIKE FFROM AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL REPORTS ON PAKISTANI CONTROLLED KASHMIR ....

ITS AN OPEN CHALLENGE .... QUOTES FROM AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL OR HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH ARE AUTHENTIC AND UNBIASED AND THEREFORE THOSE ARE THE ONES BEING PURSUED ...

AND YA .... YOU DON'T LIKE ME SHOUTING .... MAKE ME STOP ...

AS THEY SAY .... IF IT AIN'T BROKE ... DON'T FIX IT .... DON'T GO LOOKING FOR TROUBLE ....

BESIDES ... YOU ARE A TEXT BOOK PHILOSOPHER .... COME ON THE GROUND IN KASHMIR AND TEEL ME WHETHER YOU WILL BE ABLE TO LOVE THOSE WHO RAPE YOUR NEIGHBOURS ...

DO YOU LOVE RAPISTS AND MURDERERS .... IF SO .... YOU'RE ABOVE HUMANITY .... YOU MUST BE AN INCARNATION OF CHRIST HIMSELF .... I AM NOT .... I AM A MERE MORTAL WITH FEELINGS ....

CAN YOU HEAR ME GOOD ..... ???





BTW,

MAN IS BORN FREE .... ISN'T THAT A UNIVERSAL RIGHT .... I AND ALL KASHMIRIS ARE FREE TO CHOOSE WHATEVER FLAG WE WANT FLYING OVER OUR HEADS .... WHY DOES THAT GIVE YOU ACUTE CONSTIPATION .... ????

FREEDOM ..... IS OUR RIGHT ..... THEY CAN TAKE OUR LIVES .... BUT THEY WILL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM ... !!!!!

YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THAT RIGHT .... OR ARE WE NOT HUMAN ENOUGH FOR YOU ..... SO THAT THAT DOES NOT APPLY TO US IN YOUR OPINION ... ?????

lexxwern
20 Jun 04,, 19:25
The army torchures story is farce propaganda. It's the jehadi's you're training and sending to kill civilians that are harming the local people and killing off the local economy and making the kashimiri's lives miserable.

visioninthedark
20 Jun 04,, 19:42
The army torchures story is farce propaganda. It's the jehadi's you're training and sending to kill civilians that are harming the local people and killing off the local economy and making the kashimiri's lives miserable.

Those Jihadis are being taken care off .... but the Indian Army is not made up of Mother Theresas either ....

in your view .... AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH, UNHCR, ICRC, AND ALL OTHER REPUTED INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS are all LIARS and only the Indian army is the embodiment of the ABSOLUTE and FINAL TRUTH .... ????

You still have to grow up ....

BTW ....

you are shifting the goal posts here ....

but anyways .... that is to be expected from people who cannot accept THAT WE TOO ARE HUMAN BEINGS AND WE TOO HAVE AN EQUAL RIGHT TO BREATH THE AIR AND BE FREE ....

Asim Aquil
20 Jun 04,, 20:00
Just for the sake of curiosity, leaving all arguments of rape and murder aside (thats for a judge and the Kashmiris themselves to decide, not a Lahori like myself), but picking up from where it was mentioned that everybody has a right to live as they want to live, would it be so bad to have some form of UN administered Polls in Kashmir? Not elections, they're administered by the Indian government. Settle the dispute once and for all.

Of course, it'll only be fair that the polling happens all the way across Kashmir even in Pakistan's side.

Confed999
21 Jun 04,, 03:06
I CHALLENGE YOU TO QUOTE ME ABOUT ANY EXTRA-JUDICIAL KILLINGS, RAPE, TORTURE, DISSAPPEARANCES AND THE LIKE FFROM AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL REPORTS ON PAKISTANI CONTROLLED KASHMIR ....
I said "attrocities", here's one after a 5 second search: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA330142001?open&of=ENG-PAK
There are more, go look at them yourself.

UNBIASED
Everything written is biased.

MAKE ME STOP ...
No problem, welcome to my ignore list troll.

Confed999
21 Jun 04,, 03:10
You still have to grow up ....
You should take your own advice, because you make it impossible for anyone to believe "your" people are worth saving, you are a bad reflection. I'm glad you aren't an American, but I bet a lot of Kashmiris wish you were.

Ray
21 Jun 04,, 05:02
You should take your own advice, because you make it impossible for anyone to believe "your" people are worth saving, you are a bad reflection. I'm glad you aren't an American, but I bet a lot of Kashmiris wish you were.

Why should Kashmiris wish he were an American?

Don't get upset with the Capitals he uses. I think that Cap Lock is jammed.

Confed999
21 Jun 04,, 05:16
Why should Kashmiris wish he were an American?
Would you be happy if an Indian spoke like that? I know I don't like it when Americans do it. It doesn't do any good to hate people because of where they are from. To blame ones problems allways on another. People like this screaching fool are the ones strapping bombs to themselves and purposely blowing up children. I have little patience for haters, even less for them on discussion boards. He needs to go to an all hater forum and post, because when he posts here he looks like a troll.

Don't get upset with the Capitals he uses. I think that Cap Lock is jammed.
LOL, and I have a suggestion or two for good places he can jam it.

visioninthedark
21 Jun 04,, 08:46
I said "attrocities", here's one after a 5 second search: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA330142001?open&of=ENG-PAK
There are more, go look at them yourself.



so you are equalting mere DETENTIONS with EXTRA JUDICIAL KILLINGS and RAPE ....

we may be guilty of ARM-TWISTING .... BUT there are certainly NO KILLINGS, DISSAPPEARANCWES and RAPE going on Like those reported by the same organization in Indian controlled Kashmir ...

BTW ...

I am proud to be a Kashmiri .... and wouldn't want to be anything but ...

visioninthedark
21 Jun 04,, 08:52
To blame ones problems allways on another. People like this screaching fool are the ones strapping bombs to themselves and purposely blowing up children.

Listen up .... twat ... we're NOT ARAB ..... we're ARYAN and WE DO NOT DO SUICIDE BOMBINGS .... GOT THAT IN YOUR THICK HEAD ....

all we do is attack an OCCUPYING ARMY .... like the European resistance did to the Nazi Germans during occupation in WWII ....

all killings of civilans are evil and MUST STOP ... but military men carrying weapons and wearing a uniform are LEGITIMATE targets .... hell its a war out there ....


and,

we didn't go an OCCUPY INDIA .... they have come and OCCUPIED us .... so don't start this crap about blame this or that; .... twat ...

visioninthedark
21 Jun 04,, 08:54
You should take your own advice, because you make it impossible for anyone to believe "your" people are worth saving, you are a bad reflection. I'm glad you aren't an American, but I bet a lot of Kashmiris wish you were.

wern't you talking about generalizations just above ?????

and now you are advocating genocide based on your opinion of my posts ....

BTW .... did you read your own signature ..... or does that apply to white skinned europeans only?????

Ray
21 Jun 04,, 09:26
Would you be happy if an Indian spoke like that? I know I don't like it when Americans do it. It doesn't do any good to hate people because of where they are from. To blame ones problems allways on another. People like this screaching fool are the ones strapping bombs to themselves and purposely blowing up children. I have little patience for haters, even less for them on discussion boards. He needs to go to an all hater forum and post, because when he posts here he looks like a troll.

LOL, and I have a suggestion or two for good places he can jam it.

I see the logic.

Ray
21 Jun 04,, 09:30
Vision,

You are acting like a little cantankerous child.

What do you mean we occupied Pakistan and akin humbug? You seem to have lost control of your faculties. It be worth you while to stop frothing in the mouth lest they mistake it for rabies. Rather dangerous a disease. There is no cure!

Why are you being a blatant racist? What do you mean 'white skinned european'? Or Aryan? Whats great about being an Aryan? Hitler also claimed he is an Aryan. His grandmother I believe was a Jew. Your mixed up attitude shows some complex of not being 'pure' and hence you continual emphasis of being Aryan and other racist hogwash. It is only people who are insecure who require to clutch straw to prove themselves.

Quit it. You are letting the subcontinent down.

Please get a hold of yourself.

visioninthedark
21 Jun 04,, 10:55
I think he is perfectly capable of responding .... or do you like playing coolie for the gora sahib ... ????

lexxwern
21 Jun 04,, 13:48
Don't be short sighted assclown. It's in the best interest of Kashmiri's to be a part of India. The entire money flow depends on India. And Kashmir is legally Indian territory. So instead of crying about "we are people too blah blah" suck it up, grin bear it and get on wth your lives.

You think Pakistan cares about you? They are using you and you are naive and foolish enough to be used by them, they don't give a shit about your rights, freedoms etc.

Ray
21 Jun 04,, 14:23
I think he is perfectly capable of responding .... or do you like playing coolie for the gora sahib ... ????

It does matter to me if Confed respons to you or not.

I dislike racism and you people have been using it a tad too regularly when you have no rationale for your posts and then denying it. Therefore, if you are going to be racist in your posts, I am constrained to object whether that racist post is aimed at the whiteman or a brownman.

I seriously also object to your calling me ' a coolie for a gora (white) saheb'. May I recommend to you to not to provoke. This time I am letting this racist and deregatory remark against me go by as but an insane man's impotent raving and ranting.

Control yourself and take a hold of yourself.

Jay
21 Jun 04,, 19:11
ha...so finally this thread drifted to its usual rhetoric tone, i'm holier than you ranting :redface: gimme a break!!

Asim Aquil
21 Jun 04,, 20:16
Don't be short sighted assclown. It's in the best interest of Kashmiri's to be a part of India. The entire money flow depends on India. And Kashmir is legally Indian territory. So instead of crying about "we are people too blah blah" suck it up, grin bear it and get on wth your lives.

You think Pakistan cares about you? They are using you and you are naive and foolish enough to be used by them, they don't give a shit about your rights, freedoms etc.

I'm not going to start an argument about who would be better or not for the Kashmiris, but lets just see what the Kashmiris would want? What if they don't want what all India can offer? Coming back to what I had asked earlier, how bad would it be to let some form of UN administered polls decide if Kashmiris want to side with Pakistan or India? I mean that would shut Pakistanis up once and for all won't it?

Remember territories are recognized as "legally someones" when other countries start accepting it, namely the UN. All countries of the world (including Russia I guesS?) recognizes Kashmir to be a disputed territory.

Confed999
21 Jun 04,, 22:04
It does matter to me if Confed respons to you or not.
I won't be responding to him. He challenged me to make him shut up, so I did. He can't be heard here at my house now.
http://home.mindspring.com/~rlcsema1/visionignore.jpg

I dislike racism
That's the thing with haters. It's easy for someone to come along and take their rage and direct it at groups, by nationality, race, religion or whatever. Also, nobody wants to help a hate filled person, because there is no telling what they will do with the help. Hate is easily turned.

' a coolie for a gora (white) saheb'.
LOL! I suppose I'm the white guy? I bet vision can't prove I'm white. Personally "race" means nothing to me, except as a convenient way to describe a person's physical appearance.
"I believe I have no prejudices whatsoever. All I need to know is that a man is a member of the human race. That's bad enough for me." - Mark Twain

how bad would it be to let some form of UN administered polls decide if Kashmiris want to side with Pakistan or India? I mean that would shut Pakistanis up once and for all won't it?
Well, for example, the link from Amnesty I posted about Pakistan messing with the candidates for election, why would they not mess with the polls too? (BTW, I don't believe there is a much worse thing than messing with elections, that stuff dooms people to slavery.) Do you think vision would accept a result that said India? I doubt he would accept a result that said independance! Nothing but Pakistan for him, until they get there and he sees the same thing, because there are bad people everywhere, including Pakistan. Also, I am willing to insist that, the only reason there are Indian troops on the streets, is because there are people like him there, the same reason there would be Pakistani troops if things were reversed.

Confed999
21 Jun 04,, 22:07
BTW, here a coolie is a foam rubber holder, for a bottle or can, that keeps one's drink cold or warm.

Asim Aquil
21 Jun 04,, 22:22
Let's assume Pakistan and India both don't have ANY hand in organizing the polls. Thats why I stressed on the UN handling it. Then no one can say anything.

Personally as a Pakistani I would want Kashmiri to be Independent. We can maintain good ties with the Kashmiris, while we won't have to go through the pains of setting up a whole political infrastructure. Benefits for Pakistan is only securing the water flow, other than that, Pakistanis just claim to be backing an ideology towards Kashmiris being free and independent.

On another note. Pakistanis may be a more aggressive nation, but that doesn't necessarily translate into violent. Mostly it means a lot of pumping confidence. I repeatedly ask this question since Pakistanis confidently call out for some form of UN administered elections, in Kashmir - with confidence. Makes you wonder where that confidence is coming from doesn't it? So really why is it so bad for UN administered plebiscite, election or a poll (whichever word is acceptable) to end this quarrel right here, right now?

Confed999
21 Jun 04,, 22:37
Let's assume Pakistan and India both don't have ANY hand in organizing the polls.
How? Every faction there will be threatening war if they don't get things their way, same as today, that will mess up the polls.

Then no one can say anything.
Again, if the vote came up anything but Pakistan, people like vision would be making a bomb belt and looking for Indian grade school kids. A vote won't quench his hate.

Personally as a Pakistani I would want Kashmiri to be Independent.
I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with painting a line down the middle of the place and saying this half is Pakistan, and this half is India. The only problem I have is with the people who will not be satisfied no matter what. I know vision is one of those people.

Pakistanis just claim to be backing an ideology towards Kashmiris being free and independent.
The link I posted from Amnesty disagrees with that statement, though I bet the people of Pakistan feel the way you say, and I bet the people of India do as well.


So really why is it so bad for UN administered plebiscite, election or a poll (whichever word is acceptable) to end this quarrel right here, right now?
I have no problem with it, but I assure you it will do no good until the general populations of Kashmir, India and Pakistan decide to put their hate and prejudice aside. Until then there will allways be people like vision willing to believe that the cause of all of his, nay the world's, problems are caused by {insert nationality, race, sex, sexual preference, religion, or whatever, here}.

cateyes
21 Jun 04,, 22:39
I don't think these kind arguments can go anywhere.

Since both contries have nukes now, Kashmir will remain the current status, forever.

Confed999
21 Jun 04,, 22:45
Kashmir will remain the current status, forever.
I hope you're wrong.

visioninthedark
21 Jun 04,, 23:52
BTW, here a coolie is a foam rubber holder, for a bottle or can, that keeps one's drink cold or warm.

who was speaking english .... ????

we were speaking hindustani ... idiot!

visioninthedark
21 Jun 04,, 23:57
How? Every faction there will be threatening war if they don't get things their way, same as today, that will mess up the polls.

Again, if the vote came up anything but Pakistan, people like vision would be making a bomb belt and looking for Indian grade school kids. A vote won't quench his hate.

I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with painting a line down the middle of the place and saying this half is Pakistan, and this half is India. The only problem I have is with the people who will not be satisfied no matter what. I know vision is one of those people.

The link I posted from Amnesty disagrees with that statement, though I bet the people of Pakistan feel the way you say, and I bet the people of India do as well.


I have no problem with it, but I assure you it will do no good until the general populations of Kashmir, India and Pakistan decide to put their hate and prejudice aside. Until then there will allways be people like vision willing to believe that the cause of all of his, nay the world's, problems are caused by {insert nationality, race, sex, sexual preference, religion, or whatever, here}.




someone tell this twat .... who seems to "know" about me ..... that I am against these sick retards who do suicide bombings .... if he had been a fair person ... he wouldn't have made such comments ....


because in quite a few other threads he has seen me saying just that ....


but here .... his blind hate for us Kashmiris (Muslims by the way) .... has thrown him into a frenzy of frothing denial ... denial of our RIGHTS, our WILL, our FREEDOM ....

what for ... ?????

ask the moron ....




and yes .... I would willingly accept the decision of the majority of kashmiris ... whichever way ....


salla ullu ka pattha .... samajhta hai kai yea dunya uss ki ungli pai naachi ti hai ....

Jay
22 Jun 04,, 00:00
Let's assume Pakistan and India both don't have ANY hand in organizing the polls. Thats why I stressed on the UN handling it. Then no one can say anything.
Not that I'm trying to divert the topic by harping dead resolutions, but the UN resolution says that Pakistan has to withdraw from its part of Kashmir, India with UN should administer the polls.



Personally as a Pakistani I would want Kashmiri to be Independent. We can maintain good ties with the Kashmiris, while we won't have to go through the pains of setting up a whole political infrastructure. Benefits for Pakistan is only securing the water flow, other than that, Pakistanis just claim to be backing an ideology towards Kashmiris being free and independent.
Good, but rest of the Pakistanis and the Govt of Pakistan doesnt seem to be in line with your thinking.


On another note. Pakistanis may be a more aggressive nation, but that doesn't necessarily translate into violent.
We all know how this problem started - Incursions by Pakistani tribesmen in to Kashmir prompted the Maharaja to sign the accession document. So what guarantee do we have now?? Nothing has changed in last 55 years.


Mostly it means a lot of pumping confidence. I repeatedly ask this question since Pakistanis confidently call out for some form of UN administered elections, in Kashmir - with confidence. Makes you wonder where that confidence is coming from doesn't it? So really why is it so bad for UN administered plebiscite, election or a poll (whichever word is acceptable) to end this quarrel right here, right now?
Actually its far more complicated. If the pleblicite happened in 1948 then all your arguements are worthwhile. Coz in the last 56 years the demographics of Pakistani Kashmir has been changed. In India, we gave a special status for Jammu and Kashmir which disbars any non-kashmiri to own assets in J&K.Is it the same in Pakistan?? There are also 100's and 1000's of Pandits dislodged from their homes from Kashmir and living as refugees in other parts of India. Do you have any sort of problems like these? So with out these issued getting addressed it may not be after all a fair pleblicite.

visioninthedark
22 Jun 04,, 00:03
Jay ....


Pakistan should withdraw COMPLETELY ... as should INDIA ....

and a UN or other third party multi-national force come in .... and organize the referendum ....


don't tell me this is logistically impossible .....


and solve this ONCE and FOR all ....

Jay
22 Jun 04,, 00:12
Pakistan should withdraw COMPLETELY ... as should INDIA ....
and a UN or other third party multi-national force come in .... and organize the referendum ....
Sorry, the UN resolution says Pakistan should withdraw completely and India should maintain a minimum force. Remember the whole problem was started becoz of Pakistani tribesmen. We cant trust any 3rd party or Pakistani govt or army or its people

So you chose to ignore the other issues I outlined in my post??

visioninthedark
22 Jun 04,, 00:36
Sorry, the UN resolution says Pakistan should withdraw completely and India should maintain a minimum force. Remember the whole problem was started becoz of Pakistani tribesmen. We cant trust any 3rd party or Pakistani govt or army or its people

So you chose to ignore the other issues I outlined in my post??

so let india maintain a mutually agreed minimum .... POLICE force ... that comes within the definition .....


and besides 90% of Kashmiri population is on the Indian side .... so NO DEMOGRAPHICS HAVE BEEN EFFECTED ..... in substance ...


there should be impartial observers to certify the faiorness of the referendum on BOTH sids ... hell ... this is no big deal .... enev in regular elections worldwide .... election observers always come and observe ...


this is a SOLVABLE thing .... it only needs a WILL on BOTH sides .... in the meanwhile .... we suffer ...

Aryan
22 Jun 04,, 00:55
Sorry, the UN resolution says Pakistan should withdraw completely and India should maintain a minimum force. Remember the whole problem was started becoz of Pakistani tribesmen. We cant trust any 3rd party or Pakistani govt or army or its people

So you chose to ignore the other issues I outlined in my post??

That resolution was passed immediately after the start of the first war. It didn't take into account the whole Azad and Indian occupied Kashmir that occurred afterwards. The whole purpose of the resolution was to a) stop hostilities in Kashmir and b) to allow the Kashmiris to have their voice.

A few years after the hostilities finished, a new resolution was proposed to replace the old one, reaffirming the right for the Kashmiris for self determination. It was to reduce the number of troops India and Pakistan commited to their sections of Kashmir, but divided by the LoC. It was shouted down by the Indians so it never was brought into effect.

Asim Aquil
22 Jun 04,, 00:56
The All Party Hurriat Conference (Kashmiri Political group) has repeatedly called for the UN to intervene, Pakistan's also called for the UN to intervene. They both shouldn't have a problem if a vote goes to India's favor. So I still can't see a problem from these two parties. I personally believe the vote will favor Pakistan, and that is the problem.

Let's leave all these amnesty, HR, etc. links out. I've had these discussions a gazillion times that I may be a self-proclaimed veteran of them. But I've seen the Armed forces (of his or her nation) are very close to a person. A really touchy matter, calling them murderers and rapists always turns ugly and really doesn't serve anyone's purpose here. At least not mine. Focussing on the problems just strengthens the problems. So I like to be as solution oriented as possible.

Kashmir's solution. Oh well, quite frankly I think we (Pakistanis) need to drop the demand for such polls. It's just too controversial for India to accept. I mean, if they were to accept now, many people will be left wondering what did they fight for, for so long. So many lives lost. And for the exact same reasons, India needs to drop its demands to make the LoC as the International Border, thats called maintaining Status Quo and the same question arises - what was the fight for???

As a Pakistani, I know the Pakistani sentiment cannot see India cede control of any Pakistani territory. Just or unjust. It'll be a big blow to our sentiments. I'm convinced its just the same the other way round.

The solution to Kashmir has to give meaning to this age old fight, to satisfy people in both sides of the LoC. I personally feel, that can only happen if Pakistan releases its hold of Kashmir and so does India, bilaterally. Let a new country called Kashmir be placed on the map! There are smaller countries out there. It'll be a bitch convincing the people for such a big move, for Musharraf and Singh, though. But at least each side can give the fight some meaning.

Jay
22 Jun 04,, 02:43
and besides 90% of Kashmiri population is on the Indian side .... so NO DEMOGRAPHICS HAVE BEEN EFFECTED ..... in substance ...

Are you kidding? So you hold 1/3rd of Kashmir and that only has 10% of total unified Kashmir population?? Can you post the population of Pakistani kashmir??



there should be impartial observers to certify the faiorness of the referendum on BOTH sids ... hell ... this is no big deal .... enev in regular elections worldwide .... election observers always come and observe ...
Heh...then you got to accpet the last Indian general elections. We had multi-country election observers observing the elections.



this is a SOLVABLE thing .... it only needs a WILL on BOTH sides .... in the meanwhile .... we suffer ...
Its not solvable with this current mentality!! Sorry!



That resolution was passed immediately after the start of the first war. It didn't take into account the whole Azad and Indian occupied Kashmir that occurred afterwards. The whole purpose of the resolution was to a) stop hostilities in Kashmir and b) to allow the Kashmiris to have their voice.
So in 1948 Kashmiris wanted to join Pakistan and fought against India?? The resolutions were passed after the 1948 war. The resolution clearly says that Pakistan has to vacate the part of Kashmir it occupied. Read up the resolution text.



A few years after the hostilities finished, a new resolution was proposed to replace the old one, reaffirming the right for the Kashmiris for self determination. It was to reduce the number of troops India and Pakistan commited to their sections of Kashmir, but divided by the LoC. It was shouted down by the Indians so it never was brought into effect.
And who proposed it?? If its Pakistan obviously we know what it would be. Kashmiri self-determination all came after the 70's, so cut the bull, aight.
Sheikh Abdulla clearly ruled out joining Pakistan and was a part of the state govt that ratified Indian Union's constitution, so the issue of self-determination died then. He was indeed the voice of Kashmiris.



The solution to Kashmir has to give meaning to this age old fight, to satisfy people in both sides of the LoC. I personally feel, that can only happen if Pakistan releases its hold of Kashmir and so does India, bilaterally. Let a new country called Kashmir be placed on the map! There are smaller countries out there. It'll be a bitch convincing the people for such a big move, for Musharraf and Singh, though. But at least each side can give the fight some meaning.
only a miracle would bring that state of change in all our minds!

Asim Aquil
22 Jun 04,, 11:44
The resolution is something that has been in debate since 57 yrs. It just helps maintain the status quo and nothing goes forward. We need a new matter to resolve this. India is not going to allow a vote to take place where all of Kashmir goes into Pakistani hands.

So thats the reason why I keep pushing for an independent Kashmir. It'll be easier to accept that neither Pakistan nor India got hold of Kashmir for both the nations. And Kashmiris don't really mind that as well.

visioninthedark
22 Jun 04,, 14:01
you see Jay .... any third rational person reading this thread will seee howflexible we Kashmiris are .... and how YOU dont wan't to solve the problem ....

you don't mind the status quo ... because you are interested in the land and don't give two hoots for the people ....

you are seriously telling me ..... that there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY WHATSOEVER to solve this problem .....

IF THERE IS THE WILL ....


which is absurd .... just shows you DON'T want a solution ...

Ray
22 Jun 04,, 15:02
And whats the solution, apart from handing over the same on a platter?

Ray
22 Jun 04,, 15:21
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_22-6-2004_pg3_1

Jay
22 Jun 04,, 16:39
you see Jay .... any third rational person reading this thread will seee howflexible we Kashmiris are .... and how YOU dont wan't to solve the problem ....
You are Pakistani. You are not sole representative for Kashmiris. You are totally biased, so dont generalize this as Kashmiris Vs Rest of all.


you don't mind the status quo ... because you are interested in the land and don't give two hoots for the people ....
We give two hoots for the people and thats why we have our army there. Its the terrorists who dont give two hoots, they are the ones who've been killing Kashmiri Pandits and muslim civilians.


you are seriously telling me ..... that there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY WHATSOEVER to solve this problem .....
I"M SERIOUSLY TELLING YOU THAT WITH THIS CURRENT MENTALITY THIS IS UNSOLVABLE!


which is absurd .... just shows you DON'T want a solution ...
I dont want an absurd solution!!

visioninthedark
22 Jun 04,, 19:44
You are Pakistani. You are not sole representative for Kashmiris. You are totally biased, so dont generalize this as Kashmiris Vs Rest of all.


We give two hoots for the people and thats why we have our army there. Its the terrorists who dont give two hoots, they are the ones who've been killing Kashmiri Pandits and muslim civilians.


I"M SERIOUSLY TELLING YOU THAT WITH THIS CURRENT MENTALITY THIS IS UNSOLVABLE!


I dont want an absurd solution!!


YOU TALK ABOUT ABSURD .... how much more absurd can it get when you tell me what I am .... a Pakistani or Kashmiri .... I am a PROUD Kashmiri by BLOOD and I am Pakistani and you cannot deny that there is a clear chunk of us who feel this way ....


how lobg will you continue denying our RIGHT to breath free air .... how LONG will you continue disregarding our BIRTH-RIGHT to FREEDOM OF CHOICE ...

all we ask is FREEDOM OF CHOICE ....

you call yourself the biggest democracy in the world .... then where is the FREEDOM OF CHOICE thats supposd to go hand in hand with it ... ????

and please ..... don't try that stupid approach of trying to deny me my identity .....

GENERATIONS OF MY FOREFATHERS ARE BBURRIED IN BARUMALA AND THE POONCH AREA ...

so please don't be ABSURE LIKE YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE .... to tell me what I am ....


WHATEVER WE MAY BE .... WE KASHMIRIS ARE CERTAINLY NOT INDIAN ....

THAT IS OUR VOICE ....

visioninthedark
22 Jun 04,, 19:46
And whats the solution, apart from handing over the same on a platter?

LET US KASHMIRIS DECIDE .... AND YOU ACCEPT OUR SOLUTION ....

visioninthedark
22 Jun 04,, 19:48
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_22-6-2004_pg3_1


THIS IS A CHEAP GIMMICK ON YOUR PART RAY ....

I COULD RESPOND BY POSTING ARTICLES ON ASSAM AND NAGALAND .... BUT I WON'T STOOP DOWN TO THAT LEVEL ...


LETS STICK TO THE TOPIC ....


A "DEMOCRACY" THAT DENIES MILLION THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE AND OCCUPIES A LAND THAT DOES NOT BELONG TO IT ......... AND NEVER DID THROUGHOUT HISTORY ....

Ray
23 Jun 04,, 04:43
Vision,

Thanks for the Capitals. It indicates that you are ALSO losing your eyesight and hence the use of Capitals to see what you are writing.

Churchill had said, 'Let the dogs bark, the caravan shall pass its way'. Note Churchill said that, not me.

Ray
23 Jun 04,, 04:45
Daily News is a Pakistani newspaper? It is not published in India or the US.