Germany in 2006 -vs- the Allies in 1945

[Goatboy]

Ok here's the scenario:

It's Jan 1945. Suddenly I wave my magic wand and Nazi Germany disappears, in its place, suddenly transplanted is today's Germany -- existing in it's contemporary boundaries (and of course completely intact infrastructure).

This "Germany 2006", using everything it can muster today, must turn back the Allied assault (remember the Allies are using 1944 technology). Assuming it can, and I think it could, how far would "Germany 2006" be able to go? Could it force America, England, USSR to surrender? Would the time required for furious Allied efforts to study, copy, learn the incredibly advanced German technology run out before Germany dominated the world?
Remember "Germany 2006" must also create a huge "military industrial complex" to train, build, recruit. Regardless of it's military capability in 2006, to occupy huge areas, it needs more boots on the ground at least, and certainly it'll need lots and lots more bullets and bombs.

The only rule I want to create is no nukes on either side. "Germany 2006" could go nuclear very fast as we all know -- including ICBMs so I'd like to leave nukes out.

[zraver]

Germany 2006 has nuke power plants. These get hit and Gemrany 2006 is deader than Germany 45. a few hundred fighters and a few thousand aam's will not turn back the bomber tide. Specially when modern US Army forces roll out of their kasernes and airbases going WTF dude your trying to kill my grandpa! (You said it was transpanted intact)

[Goatboy]

Specially when modern US Army forces roll out of their kasernes and airbases going WTF dude your trying to kill my grandpa! (You said it was transpanted intact)

No modern US air forces exist. I said "Germany" was transplanted back in time intact, like it's intact in 2006.

[zraver]

Yup, and modern germany is full of modern US Military ;)

[Goatboy]

Yup, and modern germany is full of modern US Military ;)

LOL, on yeah, I totally forgot about that. Well no I guess they'd have to disappear. Ok well I never said every thread's a winner lol.

[troung]

Funny thing is that the USN/RN/RCN/RAN still would have control over the seas...

[ArmchairGeneral]

Funny thing is that the USN/RN/RCN/RAN still would have control over the seas...

Hmm. I think I see a second Battle of the Atlantic forming, only this time it's U-212s with high speed, long range, guided torpedoes against DEs, corvettes, and baby flattops. Once Germany builds a few more of those, it's curtains for the convoys. And anywhere within range of German Tornadoes is owned by Germany, so the North Sea and Baltic are out for the Allies. Real problem for Germany would probably be sealift capability. That and running out of ammunition. Of course, the Battle of Britain would take a much shorter time. I've always wondered how a modern fighter would handle something like a Spitfire. It's almost too fast for it's own good, and trading a 100,000 dollar missile for a 100,000 dollar fighter seems a little expensive. Of course you have to take the pilots into account; they were priceless. Losing all the good pilots would probably be the limiting factor for Allies.

[pdf27]

Presumably the current politics get transplanted back intact too? If so the war would be over very rapidly indeed, as modern Germany is very pacifistic and would moreover have no reason to fight.

[Goatboy]

Presumably the current politics get transplanted back intact too? If so the war would be over very rapidly indeed, as modern Germany is very pacifistic and would moreover have no reason to fight.

True, but the allies would have quit too -- including Russia. As soon as this magical transformation of Germany occurs, you'd see everyone on all sides throw down their guns and say "WTF!", Talk about your twilight zone stories lol. The parting of the Red Sea wouldn't be as mystical an experience as this. Too many contingencies to consider, I should have simplified when I created this thread lol.

[Bill]

I think the Germans would still run into huge numbers problems.

Their military is actually pretty close to what i'd call 'tiny', and in honesty, you just cant 'kick into full production' with these modern systems at anywhere near the neccesary rates. What's max wartime Leopard 2 production? 30 tanks a month? If that?

Likewise, what's 'wartime production' for the subs named above? 2 hulls a year?

Even if there are no US troops on German soil(and there are a lot, lol), you get into a scenario similar to what the Tiger IIs faced when 1 or 2 tanks has to take on a whole brigade. Knock out 40 tanks, the next 40 over-run you.....you still lose.

[leib10]

Could a Sherman "Easy Eight" even penetrate the side or rear armor of a Leo 2?

I'd also see the Germans running short of munitions, especially AAMs and AGMs. There were simply too many targets and the cost of each missile would probably be more than the cost of the airplane or tank it destroyed. If the Germans had them, nuclear AAMs could take out whole nicely stacked bomber formations. But today's Germany has few if any nuclear weapons IIRC, and they would be less than willing to use them over their own soil.

[gunnut]

Could a Sherman "Easy Eight" even penetrate the side or rear armor of a Leo 2?

I'd also see the Germans running short of munitions, especially AAMs and AGMs. There were simply too many targets and the cost of each missile would probably be more than the cost of the airplane or tank it destroyed. If the Germans had them, nuclear AAMs could take out whole nicely stacked bomber formations. But today's Germany has few if any nuclear weapons IIRC, and they would be less than willing to use them over their own soil.

Whichever unit that goes up against the modern German forces would be completely decimated. Here's the problem though, for the Germans, how to defend against 3 or 4 army groups breathing down your neck? The defense would be completely encircled. Shermans maybe toast against Leo2s, but couple thousands of prop fighters with 250lb bombs are no laughing matter for any tank, and that's if the 9th Air Force doesn't whip out their twins for a WW2 version of close air support.

Simple numbers suggests the German forces would lose. However, psychologically, the allies may be so awestruck that they lose their ability to function as a cohesive unit.

[leib10]

That's what I was thinking. Units may mutiny and refuse to commit to battle because of the awesome technology and weapons facing them.

The German infantry would not fare so well because the advances in small arms have not been as huge as in other areas (the modern MG3 served as the MG42 in WWII, after all). At night, thanks to thermal imaging sighting systems and NVGs, the Germans would own the Allies, but in the day they'd be far more evenly matched. They would easily be swamped by the hordes of Allied infantrymen, and their absence would leave the tanks vulnerable to Allied infantry and would make them unable to hold areas securely.

[Bill]

Once the allies called in their massed arty strikes the modern German armored forces would still have to disperse. A 7.2", 8" or 155mm shell impacting the top deck will kill a Leo 2 just fine. And all the modern german logistics vehicles are soft-skinned, so would be meat to the Allied airforces.

The german fighters would dominate, but they've nowhere near enough of them, especially once they start getting bombed on the ground between missions.

I dunno though, it's a pretty silly notion.

[Goatboy]

Attack helicopters rush in and blunt the Soviet advance lol.