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vishv29
24 May 04,, 07:19
lets have a voting for top 5 airfroces of asia. here is my list:-

1) china ( very huge,200 flankers)

2)japan

3)isreal ( very modern )

4)south korea/saudi arabia

5)india ( huge,variety of some decent fighters like MKI's,Miraaz-2000-H,Mig-29 )

Jay
24 May 04,, 07:41
Israel and Saudi are in Asia ?? :eek: whats next....America in Subcontinent and Europe in China??


5)india ( huge,variety of some decent fighters like MKI's,Miraaz-2000-H,Mig-29 )
Miraaz? is it a casino??

Most of all China getting #1 spot :biggrin: CCP will be delighted, and will include you in their propoganda rolls! good luck!!

And troung, plz dont take this serious!!

Diving Falcon
24 May 04,, 14:54
China - We should know why
Japan - Very advanced, especially the F-15s and F-2s
South Korea - Advanced with F-15s on order
India
Taiwan?

vishv29
24 May 04,, 16:19
Israel and Saudi are in Asia ?? :eek: whats next....America in Subcontinent and Europe in China??


Miraaz? is it a casino??

Most of all China getting #1 spot :biggrin: CCP will be delighted, and will include you in their propoganda rolls! good luck!!

And troung, plz dont take this serious!!


@jay,
how can u dare to reply when u dont know abt the geography even???
prove me that saudi and isreal r not in asia. by turning things to joke and pasting some stupid icons, u cant prove urself smart. go and learn the goegraphy again.

Jay
24 May 04,, 16:25
what ever :biggrin:

Bill
24 May 04,, 17:21
(I'll play along with the 'israel is in asia' line of thinking)

1) Israel, it's not even remotely close
2) Japan
3) India
4) China
5) ROK

Officer of Engineers
24 May 04,, 17:27
The top AF of Asia, heh?

1) The USAF
2) USN

VERY DISTANT afterwards (in fact combined the rest of Asia) doesn't even compared to the US Forces in Asia.

Israel
Japan
Russia
China

Jay
24 May 04,, 18:21
The top AF of Asia, heh?

1) The USAF
2) USN

Colonel,
Isnt it the other way?? I always thot USN has a significant presence than USAF!

Hawk_eye
24 May 04,, 19:15
My money is on China.

Jay
24 May 04,, 19:44
China, so far is very defensive in nature when compared to USN or USAF in Asia. It'll take a long time for PLAAF to be a true offensive force that can challenge USAF/USN.

PLAAF is huge in numbers and that alone is not enuff to have the #1 spot.

hiiii
24 May 04,, 19:53
China, so far is very defensive in nature when compared to USN or USAF in Asia. It'll take a long time for PLAAF to be a true offensive force that can challenge USAF/USN.

PLAAF is huge in numbers and that alone is not enuff to have the #1 spot.

Excluding Israel and the US from this(US too good!),

I would say

1. Japan
2. China
3.S Korea
4. India
5. Taiwan

Praxus
24 May 04,, 20:12
Why would you put China above ROK?

Bill
24 May 04,, 20:15
I put China over ROK because China has much better all-around capabilities.

ROCAF is purely defensive in nature, with very little in the way of offensive capabilities. Not so for PLAAF.

Praxus
24 May 04,, 20:30
How so?

Does China even have LGB's?

Jay
24 May 04,, 20:39
How so?

Does China even have LGB's?

Sure they do. KAB-1500 for one.

But they dont have a significant air-refuelling capability (not necessary to counter TW) and no AWACS. They dont have decent bombers and their best planes are flankers numbering couple hundreds.

Bill
27 May 04,, 15:46
Yeah, the PLAAF is still mediocre, but they at least have long range bombers- which most in Asia do not.

Jay
27 May 04,, 18:14
Snipe,
Are you talking about the H6 (Tu-16) Bombers?? AFAIK they are really really old, 1950's design to be precise.

On the same note, India is supposed to get 4 (2?) TU-22 Backfires, which is easily one of the best bombers available to date!

berkut
27 May 04,, 18:38
Snipe,
Are you talking about the H6 (Tu-16) Bombers?? AFAIK they are really really old, 1950's design to be precise.

On the same note, India is supposed to get 4 (2?) TU-22 Backfires, which is easily one of the best bombers available to date!

If I'm not mistaken India is considering buying SU-34 which will give it superrior deep strike capability. Also arent F-15s that were given to Japan and Korea are the most basic A models?
If you consider US Naval carrier presense then you have to consider China's vast antiship capabilities which significantly reduces USN advantage.

Also somebody here assumed that Russia is part of Asia.... uhm, sure, if you are considering empty land area, but if we are talking about concentration of air bases, infrastructure, and population then it is very much Europe.

Praxus
27 May 04,, 20:12
If you consider US Naval carrier presense then you have to consider China's vast antiship capabilities which significantly reduces USN advantage.

All I have to say is...

LOL

Jay
27 May 04,, 20:28
If you consider US Naval carrier presense then you have to consider China's vast antiship capabilities which significantly reduces USN advantage.
China may have cruise missiles and what not, but first they have to target USN...I think you know what I'm talking about! ;)

Bill
27 May 04,, 21:10
Old bombers are still better than no bombers at all.

The PLAAF would have an extremely difficult time attacking a US CVBG. What's more, it would be even harder for them to find it to begin with.

berkut
27 May 04,, 21:22
Old bombers are still better than no bombers at all.

The PLAAF would have an extremely difficult time attacking a US CVBG. What's more, it would be even harder for them to find it to begin with.


Whats CVBG? Is that a carrier battle group? If it is then I'm not sure how it is hard to find it. That "rock concert" of noise can be detected even by the 14th centry sonar. Also there's no way somebody will miss the enormous amount of radiation from communication, radars, etc
What about satelites? Give me some money and even I right now can order surveilance from a very well equipped satelite over the Pacific.

Praxus
27 May 04,, 23:33
Hey Smart ass, if it is beyond the horizon chances are it doesn't matter how much radiation it's giving off or how much sound it's making.

lurker
28 May 04,, 00:19
Hey Smart ass, if it is beyond the horizon chances are it doesn't matter how much radiation it's giving off or how much sound it's making.

In a case you haven't noticed - China have satellites, and China is one of only 3 countries that had put a man in space.

For now they are only "the biggest world's sweatshop", but looking how busily all the world supplies them with technology, I would say in 15-20 years they will try to claim their place as a superpower.

And Taiwan would be the 1st step to that claim. The one cannot be a superpower and have such a thing so close.

p.s. let see how their project 9935 will wok out.

Praxus
28 May 04,, 00:51
In case you havn't noticed they can not relay real time information of our Carriers in the Pacific.

lurker
28 May 04,, 01:03
In case you havn't noticed they can not relay real time information of our Carriers in the Pacific.

:biggrin:
They have 1 Infra-red/visible imaging "meteorological" geosynchronous sat over Pacific and at least 3 geosynchronous military comsats.

No, I couldn't see why they can't track a bunch of BIG ships in Pacific in realtime. :biggrin:

Praxus
28 May 04,, 01:45
Again they can not provide real time information.

Bill
28 May 04,, 03:13
Believe me when i tell you that finding a US CVBG at sea on wartime footing is an extremely hard proposition.

If you get a sat image of it by the time that image can be forwarded to the shooters the CVBG will be over 100 nautical miles away(probably much farther), in one of many possible directions.

Closing to attack a CVBG by air means you have to pass an AWACs screen and F-14 interceptors, as well as all the Aegis escorts.

It is probably one of the hardest things in all of warfare to do- attack a US CVBG on wartime footing.

Officer of Engineers
28 May 04,, 03:28
In a case you haven't noticed - China have satellites, and China is one of only 3 countries that had put a man in space.

For now they are only "the biggest world's sweatshop", but looking how busily all the world supplies them with technology, I would say in 15-20 years they will try to claim their place as a superpower.

And Taiwan would be the 1st step to that claim. The one cannot be a superpower and have such a thing so close.

p.s. let see how their project 9935 will wok out.

From a long time PLA watcher, the PLA ain't aiming to be a super power. It cannot afford to do so. The PRC ain't the USSR. She has way too many theatres to handle (Russia, India, Taiwan, Korea, Vietnam, Japan, and the US) and I'm not even including the potential challenages from Indonesaia and Australia and Australia would automatically bring in the Brits and the Canadians.

Tracking a CVBG is a hell of alot of work, the former USSR spent over 2 decades doing it and it wasn't easy. One thing that we did know. REFORGER was going to work though quite a few of us would have been kissing a fish.

Officer of Engineers
28 May 04,, 03:34
Oh, btw, don't put too much in Chinese satellite capabilities. To this day, they still cannot implement an early warning system. During the Cold War, their early warning was a mushroom cloud.

berkut
28 May 04,, 03:38
Hey Smart ass, if it is beyond the horizon chances are it doesn't matter how much radiation it's giving off or how much sound it's making.

Hey, not so smart ass, u never knew that radio waves follow the curvature of the earth as well as bounc off the atmosphere (depending on wavelength)? Get an education. U underestimate sigint way too much.

By the way who says the listening station will be land based?

And who said that by the time the observers get an image off the satelite the battle group will be 100 nautical miles away? THat means even if you are very optimistic about its speed it will take THREE hours for a signal off the satelite to reach ground? Uhuh. riiiiiiiiight

Officer of Engineers
28 May 04,, 03:40
Hey, not so smart ass, u never knew that radio waves follow the curvature of the earth? Get an education.

By the way who says the listening station will be land based?

Hey, if we knew where your fishing trawlers during REFORGER, don't you think we can track Chinese trawlers out of their depths much more easier?

berkut
28 May 04,, 03:45
Hey, if we knew where your fishing trawlers during REFORGER, don't you think we can track Chinese trawlers out of their depths much more easier?

Please rephrase that. In any case I think this is going off topic about detecting a battlegroup, not fishing boats.

Officer of Engineers
28 May 04,, 03:49
Please rephrase that. In any case I think this is going off topic about detecting a battlegroup, not fishing boats.

What don't you understand? Soviet "fishing trawlers" were the spy ships against CVBGs. REFORGER was NATO's plan to re-enforce NATO from North America. If we could sink Russian spy ships, what chances does the Chinese "science vessels" have?

Bill
01 Jun 04,, 15:59
"And who said that by the time the observers get an image off the satelite the battle group will be 100 nautical miles away? THat means even if you are very optimistic about its speed it will take THREE hours for a signal off the satelite to reach ground? Uhuh. riiiiiiiiight"

Well Admiral, the images are first zapped to the people that control the Sats, then off to the interpreters, then up the chain of command to the naval CINC, then back down the chain of command to the shooters.

That process takes hours.

berkut
01 Jun 04,, 19:07
"And who said that by the time the observers get an image off the satelite the battle group will be 100 nautical miles away? THat means even if you are very optimistic about its speed it will take THREE hours for a signal off the satelite to reach ground? Uhuh. riiiiiiiiight"

Well Admiral, the images are first zapped to the people that control the Sats, then off to the interpreters, then up the chain of command to the naval CINC, then back down the chain of command to the shooters.

That process takes hours.

Dont you think that a battlegroup is simply tracked continuesly as soon as it leaves the port? You dont have to search for, you dont have to identify it, you dont need to analyze the pictures, just track its relatively slow progress thus surface warfare department alway knows where each and every US carrier is and where it is headed. Its not a bird, its not a plane (not even a sub), its a slow moving thing the size of a city block surrounded by 6+ other monsters.

Bill
01 Jun 04,, 19:19
"Dont you think that a battlegroup is simply tracked continuesly as soon as it leaves the port?"

Nope.

Only the Russians ever made an attempt to track all our BGs, but even they were unable to. It's awful hard for a 10 knot trawler to keep up with a modern naval battlegroup, lol.

In a wartime environment all such trawlers would be sunk by coastal patrol aircraft before the BG ever left port, or simply have their comms jammed.

"You dont have to search for, you dont have to identify it, you dont need to analyze the pictures, just track its relatively slow progress thus surface warfare department alway knows where each and every US carrier is and where it is headed. Its not a bird, its not a plane (not even a sub), its a slow moving thing the size of a city block surrounded by 6+ other monsters."

If you say so.

berkut
01 Jun 04,, 19:36
"Dont you think that a battlegroup is simply tracked continuesly as soon as it leaves the port?"

Nope.

Only the Russians ever made an attempt to track all our BGs, but even they were unable to. It's awful hard for a 10 knot trawler to keep up with a modern naval battlegroup, lol.

In a wartime environment all such trawlers would be sunk by coastal patrol aircraft before the BG ever left port, or simply have their comms jammed.

"You dont have to search for, you dont have to identify it, you dont need to analyze the pictures, just track its relatively slow progress thus surface warfare department alway knows where each and every US carrier is and where it is headed. Its not a bird, its not a plane (not even a sub), its a slow moving thing the size of a city block surrounded by 6+ other monsters."

If you say so.

trawler? I am talking about satelites. Are you doing it on purpose?

Bill
01 Jun 04,, 19:51
Satellites don't just follow the BG where ever it goes, they make passes a couple times a day. They can be manuevered, but they have a very limited amount of fuel onboard. Using all their fuel makes them no more useful than orbital paperweights.

The Russians used to primarily use trawlers to track the US fleet(they still do as a matter of fact).

Satellite images are what i was talking about when i said it takes hours to get the photos to the shooters, because it does.

They are not realtime, let alone real time to the shooter.

Furthermore, the US and Russians know when enemy satellites are due to pass overhead(because we track them in orbit), so it's an easy matter to change course several minutes before they pass overhead and then resume the original course once they're over the horizon.

berkut
01 Jun 04,, 20:35
Satellites don't just follow the BG where ever it goes, they make passes a couple times a day. They can be manuevered, but they have a very limited amount of fuel onboard. Using all their fuel makes them no more useful than orbital paperweights.

The Russians used to primarily use trawlers to track the US fleet(they still do as a matter of fact).

Satellite images are what i was talking about when i said it takes hours to get the photos to the shooters, because it does.

They are not realtime, let alone real time to the shooter.

Furthermore, the US and Russians know when enemy satellites are due to pass overhead(because we track them in orbit), so it's an easy matter to change course several minutes before they pass overhead and then resume the original course once they're over the horizon.

I suppose this issue cannot be resolved unless we have someone here from the strategic offcie and who was responsible for this type of thing. Of course they will not be able to disclose any of that information since it is highly classified and smells like courtmartial.

Bill
01 Jun 04,, 20:41
One of the posters at the board i run, www.a-10.org, works for the NSA- i know the fellow personally.

There is also a former E-2C mission coordinator that posts at another board that i frequent that is very up to speed on this stuff.

While the exact capabilities are very closely guarded, the general operating principles are not.

Just ask the Colonel how long it takes to get a photo recon plane or satellite image of the battlefield. It is a much more drawn out process than you realize, believe me.

Mr_Hitler
07 Sep 04,, 15:02
You are all fools, the sequence is like this :

1) Russian Air Force
2) Kazak Air Force ( MiG-31s)
3) Chinese Air Force
4) Indian Air Force
5) Iranian Air Force ( F-14s, MiGs )
6) Bangladesh ( They got MiG-29s)
7) Pakistan ( Got planes inferior to MiG-29s) :tongue: :tongue: :biggrin:

-{SpoonmaN}-
11 Sep 04,, 10:57
I'd say:

1. Russia (Partially in Asia)
2. China (Huge, who knows how many Flankers)
3. India (Big, lots of good stuff in there, fair bit of experience)
4. Japan (Fairly large, good quality)
5. ROK

I'd say that Australia would be close after because we've got good airplanes and very good training. I don't think Isreal is in Asia really, so they don't count, and it goes without saying that the USA is way ahead of all of them.

AussieSoldier
11 Sep 04,, 14:55
I'd say:

1. Russia (Partially in Asia)
2. China (Huge, who knows how many Flankers)
3. India (Big, lots of good stuff in there, fair bit of experience)
4. Japan (Fairly large, good quality)
5. ROK

I'd say that Australia would be close after because we've got good airplanes and very good training. I don't think Isreal is in Asia really, so they don't count, and it goes without saying that the USA is way ahead of all of them.


i'd put Australia higher then that, don;t underestimate lessons learnt recently in Iraq.

Jay
11 Sep 04,, 15:39
Actually we do know the count (estimates) of Flankers in PLAAF.


The PLAAF's Flanker program highlighted these problems. It has almost been a decade since the first SU-27s arrived. In the ten years, the PLAAF only gained about one hundred fifty (my estimates) Flankers of all types---SU-27SK, SU-27UBK and SU-30MKK---both Russian and Chinese made. These numbers basically include about 48 SU-27SK and 12 SU-27UBK that were delivered earlier, 38-40 SU-30MKK, 28 SU-27UBK ordered since 1999, and presumably about 30 J-11s built (est. 15-20 planes a year). There is still another 40 SU-30MKK in order, and at least 150 SU-27s yet to be built from the 200 licensed. The difficulty of producing this complex aircraft is not just a problem for the Chinese; the Indians could only produce their version of the SU30MK at a rate of ten per year.
http://www.china-defense.com/aviation/greatleapforward/greatleapforward01.htm

Aryan
12 Sep 04,, 02:50
Thank you mods for taking swift action against this mr_hitler baboon :biggrin:

Mr-Hitler
12 Sep 04,, 08:06
The true Vedic Aryan returns haha! India is a brave new Aryan World! :tongue:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/

berry580
17 Sep 04,, 06:41
Again they can not provide real time information.Their satellites may not yet be able to, not their UAV can

Both UAVs (ASN-104 and ASN-105) are capable of transmitting imagery data to the ground station in real-time.
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/uav/asn104_105.asp

ajaybhutani
20 Sep 04,, 20:57
Actually we do know the count (estimates) of Flankers in PLAAF.


http://www.china-defense.com/aviation/greatleapforward/greatleapforward01.htm


so that means China 150 advanced aircrafts in their arsenal .. and by the way other fighters do they have is there anythin apart frm mig 19 and mig 21 clones..?


And about india it has
1. 40-50 M2K with another squadron to be delivered in a years time(apart from plans to purchase another 130 i m putting this to )
2. approx.. 66 MIG29 with helmet mounted sights R77's and so on.
3. already 10MK's and 30MKI's with another 10 to be delivered by end of this year.

And that goes to >150 by the year end and with PHALCONS to be delivered in 2005 what advantage Chineese AF has?

hammer
20 Sep 04,, 21:18
1. 40-50 M2K with another squadron to be delivered in a years time(apart from plans to purchase another 130 i m putting this to )



the rest 130 MKI's are gonna be built under a TOT by HAL in India , not purchased . and i dont think the chinese have those many sukhois.

oops my mistake . its M2ks right?! and when are they going to buy these planes ?! after they get outdated?!

Jay
20 Sep 04,, 21:23
the rest 130 MKI's are gonna be built under a TOT by HAL in India , not purchased . and i dont think the chinese have those many sukhois.

I think he's talking about Mirage 2K's from France.

ajaybhutani
20 Sep 04,, 21:26
the rest 130 MKI's are gonna be built under a TOT by HAL in India , not purchased . and i dont think the chinese have those many sukhois.


yes i did mean Miragee 2000.
I just want to make a point that China has no edge agains india in AF. rather PHALCONS give indians an edge.

hammer
20 Sep 04,, 21:28
yes i did mean Miragee 2000.
I just want to make a point that China has no edge agains india in AF. rather PHALCONS give indians an edge.

they sure would . but what i am not sure is if just 3 phalcons are enough to do the job.

ajaybhutani
20 Sep 04,, 21:42
About the future chineese do ahve a good manufacturing base. and can produce a lot of aircrafts. maybe upto 40-50 a year if we consider different models.
But yes so can india .In case the M2K deal goes thru.
we have 14 MKI's per year.Indians decided to finish prodution by 2014 and thus 14 per year.

By 2008 some 10-15 LCA's
and some 15-20 M2K's(they would love to have al M2k's by 2010 ar at least 2014-5



so nearly similar production ..And we can bet the way indians churned out MKI from the russians to contain chineese advantage.They will make sure that they dont fall down in number of good aircrafts.

And yes just somethin i wanna know.. how good is Jaguar with the upgrades its getting esp wrt chineese aircrafts.
And definitely indains have an edge in
1. avionics as they choose the best amongst french indain israeli and russian.
2. PHALCONS
3. they get the technology from Rissians which even Russians dont have in their force.
4. Air fired version of Brahmos in line ..to be ready in 2-3 years time (shall be integrated with MKI)and shall be much better than what chineese have or will have in their arsenal by then.Its an edge as Brahmos is good against land targets as well because of its speed.
5. Joint development Fifth generation fighter with russians. I give it a better chance against teh Chineese JXX as russians already ahve technology demonstrators in the form of S37 and MIG1.42/44( whatever.)
6. Plans to develop ultra long range A2A missile jointly with Russians.(there are reports that they are thinking about it.).
7. Chineese do ahve an edge in Aerospace industry presently as many may believe. But our LCA is not bad either.At least it does use good technologies even in case it dsnt turn out very good.But joint development of fighter with russians shall revert the chineese supremacy in this too.



I understand that i dont know much about the chineese AF ..and would be glad if u all can improve/correct upon what all i mentioned.


Regards
Ajay

ajaybhutani
26 Sep 04,, 14:19
they sure would . but what i am not sure is if just 3 phalcons are enough to do the job.


3 phalcons are nough to be used for roudn the cock survellance of an important
region. Assumeing that each one works for 8 hours a day min.
they surely can create teh difference. Thoug not like how US uses it.

ajaybhutani
26 Sep 04,, 14:22
http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/sep/25iaf.htm
can anyone name the other five with the capability
they can be from Us UK russia china japan france .UI dunno which one dsnt have it.

Aryaramnaes
20 Apr 05,, 05:00
(I'll play along with the 'israel is in asia' line of thinking)

1) Israel, it's not even remotely close
2) Japan
3) India
4) China
5) ROK

How is JAPAN ahead of India? Japan has a very mediocre mix of f1's to f4s with basic f-15s... Doesnt India have a better mix of planes including the MKI, Mig 29,Mirage to name a few....?

Aryaramnaes
20 Apr 05,, 06:06
Also Indian pilots have the second highest total of flight hours, around 246, USAF being the highest with 250.

ajaybhutani
20 Apr 05,, 08:57
How is JAPAN ahead of India? Japan has a very mediocre mix of f1's to f4s with basic f-15s... Doesnt India have a better mix of planes including the MKI, Mig 29,Mirage to name a few....?
if i m not mistaken they have AWACS.

Aryaramnaes
20 Apr 05,, 19:19
if i m not mistaken they have AWACS.


Yeah I just checked, they do. That gives them the edge I guess, but not for long... India is going to be getting the Phalcons system soon.

ajaybhutani
20 Apr 05,, 23:00
Yeah I just checked, they do. That gives them the edge I guess, but not for long... India is going to be getting the Phalcons system soon.
surely if we look at the future the IAF will move ahead in rankings but rite now the Japaneese have a better AF.

gangsta540i
21 Apr 05,, 02:15
surely if we look at the future the IAF will move ahead in rankings but rite now the Japaneese have a better AF.

Regarding what you guys have discussed I have created my list that I will elaborate on.

1.Russia (large airforce, good training, good a/c)
2.India ( Good training, good well equiped a/c, good structure )
3.Japan ( they have AWACS but don't know much about the a/c )
4.China ( Large # of a/c, decent training, decent a/c )
5.israel ( good technology, good a/c, good training )

Regarding Japan and AWACS I don't know much about their airforce so they could be placed second because lack of information. With India ahead of China it's because China might have more aircraft but they don't have the training like the indian pilots and they don't have aircraft as good as the IAF. Russia was placed first in my opinion because they have very good pilots and their aircraft are really good (ex. MKI ) and they produce some good technology.

Israel might be fifth but they are a really good airforce that produce probably the best technology and they have good training and a/c

Aryaramnaes
21 Apr 05,, 18:45
I would put Israel as no.2 and India 3rd... They have amazing technology and excellent training with good aircraft..plus Phalcons.

tu160mblackjack
24 Apr 05,, 21:06
Snipe,
Are you talking about the H6 (Tu-16) Bombers?? AFAIK they are really really old, 1950's design to be precise.

On the same note, India is supposed to get 4 (2?) TU-22 Backfires, which is easily one of the best bombers available to date!

Hey!! U forgot the Tu-160M bomber. It beats the crap out of the B1 :biggrin: :biggrin: Im just playing. Its a good aircraft, but I like it because its my screenname

sniperdude411
25 Apr 05,, 01:28
The Tu-160s are great Russian bombers; I'd like to rant about it, but unfortunately my memory has faded, and my plane book was conviscated by the TSA because of "high levels of radioactivity."

ajaybhutani
25 Apr 05,, 20:16
most of these air forces mentioned here donot compare in their war stratetgies. Like while the InAF & IsAF will be used extensively in wars. Thats not the case with Chineese AF . They will rely more on infantry their missile support. AF just dsnt play such a big role in their war doctrine.

Lunatock
25 Apr 05,, 20:18
lets have a voting for top 5 airfroces of asia. here is my list:-

1) china ( very huge,200 flankers)

2)japan

3)isreal ( very modern )

4)south korea/saudi arabia

5)india ( huge,variety of some decent fighters like MKI's,Miraaz-2000-H,Mig-29 )

I'd almost totally agree with that. Have to call the KSA into question, if only by the fact that they haven't made it public knowledge the KSAAF has F-14 Tomcats, which the Iranian Airforce is happy to brag about...as badly in need of maintainence as they may be, leftovers from the days of the Shah they are.

P.s. I'm not quite learned about the South Korean Air Force when it comes to flying, but missed out on an interesting idea that came about during a convo about the USAFA. The Sec. of The Airforce aka "the manatee" in the USAFA boxing ring vs Grandmaster Jae Chul Shin. Formerly served in the SKAF. Though whoever would win is wayyyy too close to call... ;)

Su-47MKI
06 Jun 05,, 02:27
Asia(Everything East of Iran):

1) China(purely because of numbers...tehir tech isn't too great)
2) India(have plenty of aircraft, better tech and aircraft than China....also ahs AWACS)
3) Japan(Great tech and good aircraft...but their fighters are kind of old...oike the F-15s they have are based on the F-15A)
4) South Korea(good aircraft, good tech, older F-15s)
5) Pakistan(a lot of aircraft, 80s era tech)

SloMax
10 Jun 05,, 06:58
"Asia(Everything East of Iran)"

1. China
2. India
3. Japan
4. South Korea
5. Malaysia

indianguy4u
10 Jun 05,, 07:21
Why does netizens spend so much time on ranking etc. This thing have no worth & credibility.

Joseph
10 Jun 05,, 09:53
Why does netizens spend so much time on ranking etc. This thing have no worth & credibility.

Very true.threads like this are totaly useless.the only ranking thread worth reading is Ricksun's( i thik so) navy rankings.It was based on true facts and his posts were like one full page.Others are just for fun to show their patriotism.

fobpower88
06 Feb 07,, 12:24
If I'm not mistaken India is considering buying SU-34 which will give it superrior deep strike capability. Also arent F-15s that were given to Japan and Korea are the most basic A models?
If you consider US Naval carrier presense then you have to consider China's vast antiship capabilities which significantly reduces USN advantage.

Also somebody here assumed that Russia is part of Asia.... uhm, sure, if you are considering empty land area, but if we are talking about concentration of air bases, infrastructure, and population then it is very much Europe.

hehe
F-15s in Japan and Korea are the most advanced versions of F-15s
Japan has F-15e and Korea will hav F-15k, which is the upgraded version of F-15e
ppl say main reason korean AF chose f-15 instead of all the other fighters were because of its tactical radius, which is 1500km i believe? that can watch China and Japan, of course NK is within that range

WECIV
19 Feb 07,, 19:26
This thread reminds me of the Cold War joke where the Soviet generals are parading through Paris and one asks "by the way who won the air war?"

All of this is useless unless the arms are combined in a useful manner. The comments on the fishing trawlers (submarines should also be included in there) is important. If air forces run around with a mentality like they can win the war alone, they will lose. Air forces must realize they are simply apart of something bigger with many parts.

W

Sumku
17 Apr 08,, 20:06
F-15s in Japan and Korea are the most advanced versions of F-15s
Japan has F-15e and Korea will hav F-15k, which is the upgraded version of F-15e.
ppl say main reason korean AF chose f-15 instead of all the other fighters were because of its tactical radius, which is 1500km i believe? that can watch China and Japan, of course NK is within that range

Nope, it is a proven thing that Sukhois are far better than Latest Version F-15Eagle and for that matter F-16 Block-52[The one that Pakistan uses]

Read this (http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/26/154053.shtml)

So the List would be like
1) Russia [They are the best when it comes to Military A/c's]
2) India [The Sukhois's along with Mirage, Phalcons and Mid-Air Refuelers(which apart from China and Russia,none in Asia have) make it a deadly force
3) Israel
3) China
5) Japan

Also, with 3 more Phalcons on their wayin (http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-military-strategic-affairs/10934-iaf-clears-proposals-purchase-three-more-awacs.html), we are truly becoming a World Class Force to reckon with.

One more link (http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=436518&sid=NAT)

Also with 24 Attack and 12 Heavy Life Helicopters making their wayin (http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3728) along with 126 MMRCA to be inducted in phases in next 10 years[the bulk comprising F/A-18/E along side Sukhois-30MKI's and Rafeal, Indian Air Force would continue to be at par with best in business

Officer of Engineers
17 Apr 08,, 20:17
Those were F-15Cs. The latest version is the F-15E which is by far, far superior than anything Sukhoi can come up with.

Blademaster
17 Apr 08,, 23:52
Those were F-15Cs. The latest version is the F-15E which is by far, far superior than anything Sukhoi can come up with.

Not if the Sukhois are equipped with western avionics which the IAF birds are.

Sinister
18 Apr 08,, 13:38
Why the heck do some of you mention Australia , they are not in ASIA.

Without counting RuAf , USN , USAF

pier1 would be InAF , JASDF , IAF
pier2 would be PLAAF , ROKAF

sohamsri
18 Apr 08,, 13:39
firstly.... to clear israel's location :-

Israel is located in the Asian continent, but because of political problems with the Arab countries that falls in Asia too, Israel is considered a European country.
Israel officially is recognized as an European country,although it is located in Asia, it falls southern Lebanon,Syria,and Turkey,where Turkey is the border of Asia and Europe,more precisely the Bosfor.


now about the air force .... i think :-

1.israel
2.india
3.russia
4.china
5.s.korea
6.UAE
7.pakistan
and others...

agreement or disagreement ??

reasons :-

israel has licence to manufacture f-16s and they make full use of it... they upload it with high tech weaponry.... which is as good as the americans..

they also have the AESA radar technology and if india agrees to buy mig 35s then israel has agreed to fit them with its AESAs... making the indian migs better than even the russian ones..but that is a different topic on the whole.

2. as blademaster specifies the indian sukhois fitted with western avionics are better than the chinese sukhois.

india has sukhoi MKIs which are better than chinese MKKs

one thing though, if reports about the development of chinese stealth bombers like the b-2s is true.... then PLAAF should come at number 2

Daily Lark: Xian H-8 Chinese Stealth bomber (http://dailylark.blogspot.com/2007/11/xian-h-8-chinese-stealth-bomber.html)

about pakistan.... they dont even have a BVR capable fighter....so....

glyn
18 Apr 08,, 13:52
[QUOTE=sohamsri;484290]

Daily Lark: Xian H-8 Chinese Stealth bomber (http://dailylark.blogspot.com/2007/11/xian-h-8-chinese-stealth-bomber.html)

The link is puerile gibberish. Can anyone make sense of it?

sohamsri
18 Apr 08,, 14:01
thats why i said i'm not sure dude.
i dont think it is...but there are many sites which suggest its true

Sinister
18 Apr 08,, 14:03
No glyn , all I see is a B-2 Spirit hehe



now about the air force .... i think :-

pier 1.USAF,USN
pier 2.RuAf
pier 3.Iaf , Inaf , Jasdf
pier 4.Plaaf , Rokaf



That would look a bit better

glyn
18 Apr 08,, 14:07
thats why i said i'm not sure dude.
i dont think it is...but there are many sites which suggest its true

Do not call me dude. :frown: Do you think it makes you look big?

sohamsri
19 Apr 08,, 07:49
Do not call me dude. :frown: Do you think it makes you look big?

chill out man, why are you getting so serious about such a small thing ??i don mean any offence.
calling someone dude does'nt make me feel big + i know you are older than me.

Tronic
19 Apr 08,, 08:02
revival of the pissing contests...?



about pakistan.... they dont even have a BVR capable fighter....so....

Yes they do. F-16C/Ds.

sohamsri
19 Apr 08,, 08:19
Yes they do. F-16C/Ds.


oh yeah.... sorry.

they got them recently.

glyn
19 Apr 08,, 09:51
chill out man, why are you getting so serious about such a small thing ??i don mean any offence.
calling someone dude does'nt make me feel big + i know you are older than me.

I find it offensive. Now you tell me to 'chill out'. I find you offensive, conseqently as your posts are totally worthless, utterly lacking in information or any vestige of charm, you are put on the ignore list, which is appropriate for someone as ignorant as yourself.

Deltacamelately
19 Apr 08,, 11:20
chill out man, why are you getting so serious about such a small thing ??i don mean any offence.
calling someone dude does'nt make me feel big + i know you are older than me.
You are Nonsence Personified.
Now buggeroff.

sohamsri
19 Apr 08,, 14:45
i am sorry sirs. i did not know you gentlemen will get so offended if i tell you to chill out.

i'll stay formal from now on.

you cant blame me, i'm just a class 11 student who is vastly interestd in tne field of defence. i just want to increase my knowledege in these matters and share what i know.

please excuse me for my language.

TUSAS1
23 Apr 08,, 15:21
Turkey is technically in Asia as well...so I would add the Turkish Air Force into the Top 5 Asian Air Forces....

Air force Combat Aircraft Inventory Summary (by 2016)

230 x F-16 CCIP
30 F-16 50/52+
52 x F-4E 2020 Terminator (very significantly modernized by IAI for $0.69 billion with enhanced air-to-ground capabilities)
71 x F-4E 2020 Terminator (Modernized by TAI for air-to-air capabilities)
32 x RF-4E Phantom II (Modernized for Intelligence)
44 x F-5 2000 (Significantly modernized by IAI with further unknown enhanced capabilities)
100 x F-35 (Firm order, to be manufactured in Turkey)
150+ x Unknown 5th Generation Aircraft (authorisation and budget granted, most probably Turkey will join Eurofighter Consortium for Trache 3, negotiations continuing with EADS and Turkey)

Current inventory/ Future Authorised orders and structure of the TuAF

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8056/inventoryyq2.jpg

The TuAF currently operates 230 F-16s (See Above Table of Turkish F-16 with Serial Numbers, Note: 8 Block 30 and 2 Block 40, Attrition losses) distributed in 11 squadrons, all F-16s squadrons are AMRAAM/Sidewinder capable, some dedicated ground attack squadrons with LGB, Maverick AGM-65G, LANTIRN pods, one squadron is dedicated for SEAD with HARMs.
Structure

Ankara Akinci Main Jet Base:
141 Block-40 Fighter
142 Block-30 Fighter
143 Block-30 OCU

Merzifon Main Jet Base:
151 Block-50 SEAD
152 Block-50 Fighter

Bandirma Main Jet Base:
161 Block-40 LANTIRN
162 Block-40 Fighter

Diyarbakir Main Jet Base:
181 Block-40 LANTIRN
182 Block-40 Fighter

Balikesir Main Jet Base:
191 Block-50 Ground Attack/Fighter
192 Block-50 Fighter

TuAF also currently operates 52 F-4E/2020 Terminators which are dedicated to air-ground with Popeye-1/2, LGB, MAvericks and LITENING-III, plus 80 F-4E/RF-4E used as Interceptor and for Recce purposes...The Turkish Air Force approved the further upgrade of a further 48 F-4Es and 18 RF-4E, thus bringing them up to F-4E/2020 standards.

Structure

Eskisehir Main Jet Base:
111. F-4E/2020 Terminator
112. F-4E Interceptor
113. RF-4E Recce with LOROP pods

Malatya Main Jet Base:
171. F-4E/2020 Terminator
172. F-4E Interceptor
173 RF-4E Recce with LOROP pods


TuAF also currently operates 7 KC-135R tankers to support these squadrons

TRANSPORT FORCE

7 x C-130E Hercules (being extensively modernised with Full Glass Cockpits etc)
6 x C-130B Hercules (with ELINT/SIGINT equipment)
19 x C-160T Transall
50 x CN 235-100M
10 x Airbus A-400M (Firm Order)

UNMANNED AERIAL INVENTORY

20 x TIHA MALE Attack/Surveillance (Indigenous UAV similar to US Predator, TIHA-B armed with 4 laser guided missiles)
40 x Heron MALE Attack/Surveillance UAV (1000/3300 km)
107 x Harpy Attack UAV (500 km)
2 I x GNAT Surveillance UAV (500 km)

HELICOPTER INVENTORY

20 x AS 532UL Cougar Mk1 (14 SAR + 6 CSAR)
81 x Bell UH-1H Iroquois (SAR/ECM/Utility)- To be modernized


TuAF Training is done in two different base:

Izmir Cigli Main Jet Base:
SF-260 Basic Flight Training
T-37B/C Basic Jet Training
T-38A Advance Jet Training

Konya Main Jet Base:
131. F4E OCU
132. F-4E and F-5/2000 Aggressor-Tactics
133. F-5/2000 LIFT for F-16s

TRAINING AIRCRAFT INVENTORY

69 x T-38A Talon (received structural upgrade, to be modernized)
61 x Cessna T-37B/C (received structural upgrade)
38 x Aermacchi SF-260D
26 x T-41D Mescalero
0 x KAI KT-1 (40 on order to replace T-37s)
Also, currently the development of both Turbo-prop and Turbo-fan engine trainer aircraft are continuing at Turkish Aerospace Industries. It is planned that they will enter service in 2012.

TuAF Air Defense Force

Long Range/High altitute

72 Nike Hercules(about to be retired, Patriot/Arrow-II is considered for future)

Patriot/S-300/S-400- There is negotiations with Russian and US companies for an anti-balistic missile defence shield (It will consist of a minimum of 4 systems). Russia is the favoured as they have offered co-production and tech-transfer.

Medium Range/Altitute
24 I-HAWK-PIP3 launchers with MPQ-64 Sentinel Radars/Konsberg Fire Control Centers
Indigenous system in development

Low Altitute/Short Range
80 x Rapier Lauchers/37 Blindfire Fire Control radars upgraded to B1X version, new 800 Rapier Mk-2 missiles started to be assembled in Turkey.

32 x Aselsan KMS, each carries 4 ready to fire Stingers-RPM and 12.7mm machine gun for close range...

35mm/40mm short range AA guns supported by D-XI Radar/FLIR weapon control platforms...

Further procurement.....

As of today the following systems were ordered/secured via FMS and Turkish SSM procurement contracts:

* 127 AIM-9X

* 200 JHMCS

* 200 AN/AVS-9

* 213 AIFF

* 205 Link-16

* 50 CBU-105

* 54 AGM-154A-1

* 50 AGM-154C

* 50 AGM-84K

* 20 AselPod

* Tubitak of Turkey manufactured Paveway-IIT LGBs and new GPS/INS kits

* 60 AN/ALQ-178V[5]+ SPEWS-II for B50s (To be revised to 53+)

As of today the following systems were guaranteed via DSCA/Congressioanl approval and waiting FMS orders and Turkish SSM procurement tenders:

* 180 AN/APG-68[V]9 (To be reduced to max. 174)

* 105 AIM-9X

* 200 GBU-31

* 200 GBU-38

* 50 CBU-103

* 4+2 LOROP-IR Pod

* 2 SAR Pod

* 16+4 Escort Jammer Pod

As of today the following systems were listed via DSCA and LLIs were ordered, awaiting final evaluation and FMS order:

* AIM-120C-5/7/D

* AGM-88B3/C/D

* AGM-84L

* HTS(E) or HTS R7

* Second batch of AGM-154A-1/C

As of today the following systems were under evaluation:

* EGBU-10/12

* AGM-65G2/H/J/K/X upgrade

* Long Shot kits

* JASSM

Procurement of joint F-4E/F-16 integrated 22 Litening-III was also cancelled. Turkish Aselpod (and may be further direct procurement of 20 Sniper or Litening-IIIs for B50s) is onstream for B40s. There are also plans for upgrading all LANTIRN equiped Turkish vipers to LANTIRN-ER.

With the PO-III programs Block 40s will be able to perform Stand-off Strike, CAS, Anti-tank, Tactical Reconnaissance and Maritime Attack roles, and Block 50s will be able to perform complete SEAD/DEAD as well as 5th generation BVR air interception duties for both.


I think this is a significant force...don't you reckon? And by the way....the above acquisitions etc were decided before the decision for the $160 billion (no mistake) overhaul of the Turkish Armed Forces (TAF). The new strategy of the TAF is to reduce the Man power but add the high technology and increase the ability for rapid deployment.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1525/bariskartalfp2.jpg
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5435/800pxtuaf1cj4.jpg
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/89/mesajt4.jpg
http://www.targeta.co.uk/images/071_3065w5.jpg
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/2231/cougar1bqa1.jpg
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2006-9/896.jpg
http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/thk-171-2002-020.jpg

Stan
23 Apr 08,, 16:34
Blimey Glyn ..

Deltacamelately
24 Apr 08,, 12:58
Turkey is not in Asia. It is considered to be an European Country.

TUSAS1
28 Apr 08,, 05:25
Actually, Turkey is a Euro-Asian country. Thus, it is both European and Asia. In fact, Turkey is a partner in many Asian organisations as well. For Example, it is a Full member of the Asia-Pacific Space Cooperation Organization (APSCO)Turkey Signs Up For Asia-Pacific Space Program (http://www.spacemart.com/reports/Turkey_Signs_Up_For_Asia_Pacific_Space_Program.htm l)

Thus, Turkey is definately in this race and I would rank it as having the 3rd best Air Force in Asia.

240 F-16 CCIP,
170 F-4 Terminator 2020,
100 F-35 (Delivery commences in 2010),
150 Unknown 5th Generation Fighter approved (possibly Eurofighter consortium in Trache 3)
6 B737 MESA AWACS,
7 KC-135 Tankers

This is just a summary, I posted a detailed link previously.

kuku
28 Apr 08,, 05:35
Actually, Turkey is a Euro-Asian country. Thus, it is both European and Asia. In fact, Turkey is a partner in many Asian organisations as well. For Example, it is a Full member of the Asia-Pacific Space Cooperation Organization (APSCO)Turkey Signs Up For Asia-Pacific Space Program (http://www.spacemart.com/reports/Turkey_Signs_Up_For_Asia_Pacific_Space_Program.htm l)

Thus, Turkey is definately in this race and I would rank it as having the 3rd best Air Force in Asia.

240 F-16 CCIP,
170 F-4 Terminator 2020,
100 F-35 (Delivery commences in 2010),
150 Unknown 5th Generation Fighter approved (possibly Eurofighter consortium in Trache 3)
6 B737 MESA AWACS,
7 KC-135 Tankers

This is just a summary, I posted a detailed link previously.

Really F-35 coming to town in 2010, or is it 2020?

With 100 F-35 and 150 EF typhoon, F-16s, 737 MESA, 135 tankers turkey would certainly be a very capable AF, however will they be a EU/NATO force by the time all of this hardware is in?

TUSAS1
28 Apr 08,, 05:45
Really F-35 coming to town in 2010, or is it 2020?

See this post http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/military-aviation/44206-turkey-receive-jsf-much-earlier-than-expected.html

Furthermore, the 7 KC-135 Tankers, 240 F-16, 2 B737-MESA AWACS are already in the inventory. The 4 other MESA AWACS will enter into service before 2010, together with the F-35. Thus, the TuAF is already a very capable force. Its just that it will be much more capable post 2010.
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/1525/bariskartalfp2.jpg
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5435/800pxtuaf1cj4.jpg

The Turkish Minister of Defence has announced that the F-35 will be flying in the Turkish Air Force by 2010. Turkish Aircraft Industries has already commenced production of the F-35. In fact, they are also producing 400 F-35 fuselages for the US Air Force. Turkey will be the second country to incorporate the JSF into its Air Force before 2011 after the US


Northrop Grumman Authorizes International Suppliers to Begin Work On First Phase of F-35 Low Rate Initial Production
Awards to Danish, Turkish Firms Add Momentum to Long-term Agreements Signed in 2005

EL SEGUNDO, Calif., Dec. 6, 2007 (PRIME NEWSWIRE) -- Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE:NOC) has authorized Terma, Lystrup, Denmark and Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI), Ankara, Turkey to begin fabricating subassemblies for the first two F-35 Lightning II production aircraft.

The awards, which expand the international membership of Northrop Grumman's F-35 supplier team, represent the first F-35 contracts for Terma and TAI under long-term agreements signed with the company in 2005.

The subassemblies to be produced -- composite components and aircraft access doors -- will be used in the F-35 center fuselage, a major section of the aircraft being produced by Northrop Grumman as a principal and founding member of the Lockheed Martin-led F-35 global industry team.

"Strong international participation in the F-35 program is critical to ensuring the successful production, delivery and sustainment of the world's most advanced multi-role combat aircraft," said Janis Pamiljans, vice president and F-35 program manager for Northrop Grumman's Integrated Systems sector. "These agreements add significant momentum to our very successful partnerships with Turkey and Denmark for the production of critical F-35 subassemblies."

According to Pamiljans, Terma and TAI will each serve as a second source supplier to Northrop Grumman during F-35 low rate initial production (LRIP). Under the current authorization, they will begin producing aircraft parts required for the initial phase, known as LRIP-1.

In late October, Northrop Grumman officially began LRIP-1 for the F-35 program by starting the fabrication of the first single-piece, all-composite inlet duct for the Air Force's first production F-35 aircraft. That duct is now being produced at Northrop Grumman's composites manufacturing center in El Segundo, Calif.

In February 2007, Northrop Grumman signed a letter of intent with TAI to also make the Turkish company a second source for producing F-35 center fuselages. Under that agreement, TAI will produce a minimum of 400 center fuselages starting in LRIP-2. Northrop Grumman currently produces all F-35 center fuselages at its F-35 assembly facility in Palmdale, Calif.

The F-35 Lightning II is a stealthy, supersonic multi-role fighter designed to replace a wide range of aging fighter and strike aircraft. It is being produced in three variants -- conventional take-off and landing (CTOL), short take-off/vertical landing (STOVL) and a carrier variant (CV) -- to meet the diverse performance needs of the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Marine Corps, the U.S. Navy and allied defense forces worldwide. The three variants use a high degree of commonality to meet strict affordability requirements.

Northrop Grumman's roles on the F-35 team include producing the aircraft's center fuselage, key radar and electro-optical subsystems, and the aircraft's communication, navigation and identification avionics. It also provides mission systems and mission-planning software; and develops pilot and maintenance training systems.

Northrop Grumman Corporation is a $30 billion global defense and technology company whose 120,000 employees provide innovative systems, products, and solutions in information and services, electronics, aerospace and shipbuilding to government and commercial customers worldwide.

CONTACT: Brooks McKinney, APR
Northrop Grumman Integrated Systems
(310) 331-6610
Mobile: (310) 864-3785
brooks.mckinney@ngc.com

Ken Beedle (London)
Northrop Grumman Integrated Systems
+44 0207 747 1910
+44 07787 174092
Ken.beedle@euro.ngc.com


ANKARA, Turkey – 10. December, 2007 – Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI) has been authorized by Northrop Grumman Corporation to begin fabricating subassemblies for the first two F-35 production aircraft. The authorization represents the first F-35 contract received by TAI under a long term agreement signed with Northrop Grumman in 2005.
The subassemblies – composite components and aircraft access doors – will be used in the F-35 center fuselage, a major section of the aircraft being produced by Northrop Grumman, a principal member of the Lockheed Martin-led F-35 global industry team.

“In order to meet and support the requirements of the F-35 program, we have been making significant investments both for the new technologies and facilities” said Muharrem Dortkasli, general manager for TAI. “This agreement, which will last for at least 20 years, is a very important milestone for the strong and strategic partnership between Northrop Grumman and TAI.”
“Strong international participation in the F-35 program is critical to ensuring the successful production, delivery and sustainment of the world’s most advanced multi-role combat aircraft,” said Janis Pamiljans, vice president and F-35 program manager for Northrop Grumman’s Integrated Systems sector. “This agreement adds significant momentum to our very successful partnership with TAI for the production of critical F-35 subassemblies.”
According to Muharrem Dortkasli, “TAI will each serve as a second source supplier to Northrop Grumman during F-35 low rate initial production (LRIP). It will begin producing aircraft parts required for the initial phase, known as LRIP-1 and will procure the raw materials required to produce parts for LRIP-2. TAI has been selected as the only source located outside of USA for the F-35 Lightning II CTOL Center Fuselages. Deliveries of Center Fuselages will start in 2013 and continue during the full production phase.”
The F-35 Lightning II is a stealthy, supersonic multi-role fighter designed to replace a wide range of aging fighter and strike aircraft. It is being produced in three variants – conventional take-off and landing (CTOL), short take-off/vertical landing (STOVL) and a carrier variant (CV) – to meet the diverse performance needs of the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Marine Corps, the U.S. Navy and allied defense forces worldwide. The three variants use a high degree of commonality to meet strict affordability requirements.
TAI’s modern aircraft facilities, located in Ankara-Turkey, are furnished with high technology machinery and equipment that provide extensive manufacturing capabilities ranging from parts manufacturing to aircraft assembly and flight tests. TAI also designs, develops and integrates aerospace systems and provides modernization and after sales support services.


In February 2007, Northrop Grumman signed a letter of intent with TAI to also make it a second source for producing F-35 center fuselages. Under that agreement, TAI will produce a minimum of 400 center fuselages starting during LRIP-2. Northrop Grumman currently produces all F-35 center fuselages at its F-35 assembly facility in Palmdale, Calif.
Northrop Grumman’s roles on the F-35 team include producing the aircraft’s center fuselage, key radar and electro-optical subsystems, and the aircraft’s communication, navigation and identification avionics. It also provides mission systems and mission-planning software; and develops pilot and maintenance training systems.
Northrop Grumman Corporation is a $30 billion global defense and technology company whose 120,000 employees provide innovative systems, products, and solutions in information and services, electronics, aerospace and shipbuilding to government and commercial customers worldwide.

Sumku
28 Apr 08,, 20:00
Thats Impressive. Good for Turkey.

Though I still have reservations on whether we can actually Count Turkey as amongst the Top-5 Airforce's in Asia[if we were to assume that Turkey is part of Asia].

I guess no. Yeah, you might field an F-35 a good 3-4 years before other Forces, however F-35 is not the end-all-be-all of everything.

Qualitative Superiority is one thing and Numerical Superiority is other and both have their own pros and cons. How many F-35's are you going to fleld anyways. From how many Airfields are they going to operate. What Solid Air Defense have you in place?

Besides Training is another aspect we cant forget. Also economically,how strong are you.

Do you really think that Turkish AirForce would come as a winner when compared to China? I guess no.

F-35 is not everything. In a real war like situation, probably Russia,China and India can quickly put a lot more 4.5 Gen A/C's in air than Turkey can field F-35's.

Qualitative Superiority has advanages only in a Ratio of lets say 1:3 or at the max 1:5 and definitely not 1:20.

5-6 Jag's can easily take out an F-35. So again the Question "How many F-35's Turkey would field/make".How many BVR missiles you have. China has tons of them and so has Russia.

Turkey's Air Force is Impressive and would give a clear shot over Iran, but still no place amongst Top-5 in Asia.

Sumku
28 Apr 08,, 20:45
I think this is a significant force...don't you reckon? And by the way....the above acquisitions etc were decided before the decision for the $160 billion (no mistake) overhaul of the Turkish Armed Forces (TAF). The new strategy of the TAF is to reduce the Man power but add the high technology and increase the ability for rapid deployment.

Thats a Shitload of Money[atleast on the face of it]. But its to be distributed across how many years?. I guess Turkish economy would not be able to allocate that entire Sum of Money in immediate few years. I guess that its a long range allocation to be used over nothing less than 40-50 years.

Mind you that its the money that is going to Modernize the Turkish Armed Forces, which means the defence budget would be extra. Make me wise if I am wrong.

Gun Grape
29 Apr 08,, 01:04
Thats a Shitload of Money[atleast on the face of it]. But its to be distributed across how many years?. I guess Turkish economy would not be able to allocate that entire Sum of Money in immediate few years. I guess that its a long range allocation to be used over nothing less than 40-50 years.

Mind you that its the money that is going to Modernize the Turkish Armed Forces, which means the defence budget would be extra. Make me wise if I am wrong.
Thats only about 10% of the projected 2008 GDP. Maybe 5-10yrs is realistic. Depends on what other programs they want to build in the defense budget It won't take 40 yrs.

Sumku
29 Apr 08,, 02:33
Thats only about 10% of the projected 2008 GDP. Maybe 5-10yrs is realistic. Depends on what other programs they want to build in the defense budget It won't take 40 yrs.

Please do some calculations. We are not talking about $60Billion, but $160Billions. Have a look at the below table

Total Overlay Number of Years Billions/Year
160 5 32.00
160 10 16.00
160 15 10.67
160 20 8.00
160 25 6.40
160 30 5.33
160 35 4.57
160 40 4.00
160 45 3.56
160 50 3.20
160 55 2.91
160 60 2.67
160 65 2.46
Note: If you have issues getting the table properly, then scroll down to see attached Image for better comprehension.


Now look carefully under the Column Billions/Year. If they are spending $160Billions, then to be able to achive this they would need to invest something like $2.46Billion per year for 65 Years. If as you say they would want to do this in within lets say 10 years, then they would need to spend about $16Billions every year for next 10 years. Even China is not investing in Military at that pace.

To me investing about $3Billion is quite possible but can hardly be called a Major Defense Preparedness exercise.

And this is something outside of their Defence Budget. Now tell me which country other than US has that kind of Funds available?

If the $160Billion is inclusive of their Defence Budget then this is an entirely a different story and is possible also but then this could hardly be called a Worthwhile exercise towards Major Defence Upgradation.

For 10years,spending $16Billion Plus Defence Budget is also possible but then it would make then a very military society with practically nothing left to invest in Internal economy. And that also means that other countries of the region see what would be coming in 10 years and would also increase their defense budget and thereby making the whole region highly unstable.[Oil prices would then start to head south:biggrin:].

Either that or Turkey or talks about Turkey investing $160Billions on defense preparedness is a joke[I however am still to check the authenticity of the claims in Non-Turkey media].


Thats only about 10% of the projected 2008 GDP. Maybe 5-10yrs is realistic.

Are you seriously stating that Turkey would spend about 2.5% of GDP on just defense preparedness+Normal Military Budget[Overall somewhere around 6-7% of GDP on defense preparedness]? I seriously dont think so.

I might be wrong,please make me wise by putting even stronger argument based on Facts and not just assumptions.

Note: For better representation, I have attached a file:Comparison Chart.jpg

Gun Grape
29 Apr 08,, 04:38
During the 80s and 90s Turkeys defense budget hovered between 4-6% of their GDP.

The question that has to be asked is, How relevant do you want your military to be? If you really want the AF that Turkey plans on, or the US , then you make sacrifices in other places.

From the USAF perspective. Want to pay for those extra F-22s that you want to buy? Might have to retire the 117s a little early and live with a small gap in your bag of tricks. And you cut people. You also get with the other services
and see what programs they might be willing to sacrifice to be covered by an "A" team Air Force.

Maybe Turkey puts the F-5s and F-4s in the bone yard, and cut the personnel that had F-4/5 skills and invest that money towards the goal that they have set.

TUSAS1
29 Apr 08,, 05:57
Thats Impressive. Good for Turkey.

Though I still have reservations on whether we can actually Count Turkey as amongst the Top-5 Airforce's in Asia[if we were to assume that Turkey is part of Asia].

I guess no. Yeah, you might field an F-35 a good 3-4 years before other Forces, however F-35 is not the end-all-be-all of everything. I am not saying the F-35 is the end-all-be-all of everything. But do not forget the JSF project is the product of 8 countries industries joining forces and the pouring of $260 billion. It will be a very capable plane for at least 25 years.

Qualitative Superiority is one thing and Numerical Superiority is other and both have their own pros and cons. How many F-35's are you going to fleld anyways. From how many Airfields are they going to operate. What Solid Air Defense have you in place? Turkey has put a firm order for 100 F-35C, (there is talk of increasing this number to 150) There are in excess of 120 Military Airfields in Turkey. Turkey also maintain bases in Albania, Azeribeijan and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.

Besides Training is another aspect we can't forget. Also economically,how strong are you. Honestly, I think you have no information or idea about Turkey or the Turkish Air Force. Please read up on Turkey before you give an opinion on it. Turkey is not one of NATO's most important countries for no reason.

Do you really think that Turkish AirForce would come as a winner when compared to China? I did not assert this...however, I do believe that for SOME missions the TuAF is better equipped than China.

F-35 is not everything. In a real war like situation, probably Russia,China and India can quickly put a lot more 4.5 Gen A/C's in air than Turkey can field F-35's. Again you are forgeting or a ill-imformed about the fact that Turkey has been producing F-16's under licence from Lockheed Martin for over 20 years now. Do you really believe during war, Turkey is going to sit back and listen to licencing agreements? For gods sake, Turkey is producing the F-35 under licence as well. During war, it will manufacture at full capacity! Don't forget 400 of the US Air Forces F-35 will be built by Turkish Aircraft Industries due to the significant cost reduction

Qualitative Superiority has advanages only in a Ratio of lets say 1:3 or at the max 1:5 and definitely not 1:20. The Turkish Air Force both has the numbers and the quality. 170 4 generation (F-4 Terminator 2020), 240- 4.5 generation aircraft (F-16 CCIP), 100- JSF + 150- unknown fith generation aircraft is a sizeable modern force.

5-6 Jag's can easily take out an F-35. So again the Question "How many F-35's Turkey would field/make".How many BVR missiles you have. China has tons of them and so has Russia.

Turkey's Air Force is Impressive and would give a clear shot over Iran, but still no place amongst Top-5 in Asia. I think you need to revise this. If the Turkish Air Force is easily in the top 2 in Europe it is easily in the top 5 of Asia!

Regarding the Turkish Armed Forces Economics/Funding/Modernization

Heres what the US Central Intelligence Agency says about the Turkish Armed Forces


a "National Security Policy Document" adopted in October 2005 increases the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) role in internal security, augmenting the General Directorate of Security and Gendarmerie General Command (Jandarma); the TSK leadership continues to play a key role in politics and considers itself guardian of Turkey's secular state; in April 2007, it warned the ruling party about any pro-Islamic appointments; despite on-going negotiations on EU accession since October 2005, progress has been limited in establishing required civilian supremacy over the military; primary domestic threats are listed as fundamentalism (with the definition in some dispute with the civilian government), separatism (the Kurdish problem), and the extreme left wing; Ankara strongly opposed establishment of an autonomous Kurdish region; an overhaul of the Turkish Land Forces Command (TLFC) taking place under the "Force 2014" program is to produce 20-30% smaller, more highly trained forces characterized by greater mobility and firepower and capable of joint and combined operations; the TLFC has taken on increasing international peacekeeping responsibilities, and took charge of a NATO International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) command in Afghanistan in April 2007; the Turkish Navy is a regional naval power that wants to develop the capability to project power beyond Turkey's coastal waters; the Navy is heavily involved in NATO, multinational, and UN operations; its roles include control of territorial waters and security for sea lines of communications; the Turkish Air Force adopted an "Aerospace and Missile Defense Concept" in 2002 and has initiated project work on an integrated missile defense system; Air Force priorities include attaining a modern deployable, survivable, and sustainable force structure, and establishing a sustainable command and control system (2008)
Reference: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tu.html

Regarding the $160 billion modernization


Turkey has allocated a budget of $150 billion for modernization. This sum will be spent over a period of 30 years (which commenced in 1997) and is to be used for acquisition of idegenous Frigates, Tanks, Missile Defence Systems etc only. This budget is exclusive of the yearly military budget which is officially stated as 5.7% of GDP. The following must also be taken into consideration:

THIS BUDGET WAS CALCULATED AND ALOCATED DURING THE ECONOMIC CRISIS TURKEY FACED AND DURING WHEN THE GDP WAS AROUND $400 BILLION. TODAY, TURKEY IS A CANDIDATE COUNTRY FOR EU MEMBERSHIP AND ITS GDP (PPP) IS $980 BILLION. IT WILL EXCEED $ 1 TRILLION NEXT YEAR ACCORDING TO IMF AND WORLD BANK OFFICIALS.

ADD TO THIS:

The fact that the Turkish Armed forces also owns majority shares in several of Turkey's largest Corporations. These collectively bring an extra $10 billion of income per year to the Armed Forces. These companies include: ASELSAN, HAVELSAN, ROKETSAN, MKEK, several Turkish lottery companies and some oil exploration companies operating in Azerbeijan and Northern Iraq.

For very detailed information about the Economics of the Turkish Armed Forces I draw your attention to the following documents from very reputable American sources:


Introduction
"The Political Economy of Turkish Military Modernization" by Dr. Elliot Hen-Tov
This study examines the political economy of the military modernization project begun in 1996 in Turkey. Due to the unprecedented scope of the modernization effort and the particularities of the defense industry, this project will impact both Turkey's relations with its allies as well as its democratization process. The large purchases of military technology and the expected professionalization of the Turkish military will lead to an enhancement in Turkey's international stature, especially in its relationship with Western supplier states. Simultaneously, the modernization will produce domestic social forces that facilitate further democratization. Reference: Turkish Military Modernization (http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2004/issue4/jv8no4a5.html)

See also The Military in Modern Turkey (http://jspc.library.wisc.edu/issues/1998-1999/article5.html)

Opinion Paper: "Turkey’s Quest to Modernize Remains on Track" (http://www.tusiad.us/specific_page.cfm?CONTENT_ID=695)

Turkey Military (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/tu-intro.htm)

You also mentioned that you would like to see non-Turkish sources. Well, please refer to my second post after this one. I have attached references from the US Navy, outlining some of the projects where the $160 billion is being spent on. I must inform you that after the new Economic situation, Turkey has added more National Frigates and MBT's to the list. TCG Heybeliada, a MILGEM corvette will be launched this September.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

Regarding the Turkish Air Forces other Assets, viz Air Defence Systems
You mentioned earlier in your post that Combat Aircraft are not the only determinant of Air power. Well you were right. Below is a non-exhaustive list of all the other Turkish Air Force Assets for your perusal.

TRANSPORT FORCE

7 x C-130E Hercules (being extensively modernised with Full Glass Cockpits etc)
6 x C-130B Hercules (with ELINT/SIGINT equipment)
19 x C-160T Transall
50 x CN 235-100M
10 x Airbus A-400M (Firm Order)

UNMANNED AERIAL INVENTORY

20 x TIHA MALE Attack/Surveillance (Indigenous UAV similar to US Predator, TIHA-B armed with 4 laser guided missiles) (800 km)
40 x Heron MALE Attack/Surveillance UAV (1000/3300 km)
107 x Harpy Attack UAV (500 km)
2 I x GNAT Surveillance UAV (500 km)

HELICOPTER INVENTORY

20 x AS 532UL Cougar Mk1 (14 SAR + 6 CSAR)
81 x Bell UH-1H Iroquois (SAR/ECM/Utility)- To be modernized
45 x UNKNOWN HEAVY LIFT (Negotiations for the co-production of a heavy lift helicopter such as the Chinook still continuing).

TRAINING AIRCRAFT INVENTORY

69 x T-38A Talon (received structural upgrade, to be modernized)
61 x Cessna T-37B/C (received structural upgrade)
38 x Aermacchi SF-260D
26 x T-41D Mescalero
0 x KAI KT-1 (40 on order to replace T-37s)

Also, currently the development of both Turbo-prop and Turbo-fan engine trainer aircraft are continuing at Turkish Aerospace Industries. It is planned that they will enter service in 2012.

TuAF Air Defense Force

Long Range/High altitute

72 Nike Hercules(about to be retired

Patriot/S-300/S-400- There is currently in negotiations with Russian and US companies for an anti-balistic missile defence shield (It will consist of a minimum of 4 systems). Russia is the favoured as they have offered co-production and tech-transfer. See Russia offers Turkey upgraded, longer-range S-300s Papandreou: Greece is ready to discuss everything with Turkey that doesn't affect its sovereignty P - Turkish Daily News Mar 04, 2000 (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/archives.php?id=16363)

After the off-the-shelf initial order of 4 systems, Turkey will then commence the development of an indegenous system in conjunction with a foreign partner. There is a requirement of an extra indegenous 8 systems.

A next generation Very-High Altitude Anti-Balistic weapons system web- to be co-produced by the Boeing and Havelsan of Turkey team. It will be used by the US, Turkey and NATO. (see http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/military-aviation/44210-boeing-havelsan-turkey-join-forces-develop-new-missile-defence-shield.html) (http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/military-aviation/44210-boeing-havelsan-turkey-join-forces-develop-new-missile-defence-shield.html)

Medium Range/Altitute
24 I-HAWK-PIP3 launchers with MPQ-64 Sentinel Radars/Konsberg Fire Control Centers

Indigenous system in development by ASELSAN of Turkey

Low Altitute/Short Range
80 x Rapier Lauchers/37 Blindfire Fire Control radars upgraded to B1X version, new 800 Rapier Mk-2 missiles started to be assembled in Turkey.

32 x Aselsan of Turkey KMS, each carries 4 ready to fire Stingers-RPM and 12.7mm machine gun for close range...

35mm/40mm short range AA guns supported by D-XI Radar/FLIR weapon control platforms...

Turkish Military Space Program

I do not want to digress from the main topic, however Turkey also has a very active space program. The program includes but is not limited to, the acquisition of a 0.8cm resolution Recon. Satelite (Project Gokturk-1) for use by the Turkish Armed Forces and a 2m resolution Recon Satelite (Project Gokturk-2) for use by the Turkish National Intelligence Organisation. Gokturk-2 is currently being produced by Turkish Aerospace Industries. Gokturk-1 is in the tender stages. The electro optical parts required for the Gokturk-1 (0.8m resolution) are beyond the technological knowhow of Turkish Aerospace Industries, thus a foreign partner is being sought. The strongest contenders in the tender are EADS-Astrium and Elenia.

For further information please refer to the following (some a Turkish Government sources):

Turkey moves towards setting up costly sapece programs.** (Turkish Daily News* Gazetesi/30.05.2001) (http://gbulten.ssm.gov.tr/arsiv/2001/05/30/01_2.htm)

Turkish Satellite Project Attracts Global Interest (http://www.space.com/spacenews/archive05/turkeysatellite_072505.html)

TÜBİTAK UZAY Space Technologies Research Institute - Uzay Teknolojileri Araştırma Enstitüsü +90 312 210 1310 (http://www.bilten.metu.edu.tr/tubitakUzay/en/about/history.asp)

Turkey Signs Up For Asia-Pacific Space Program (http://www.spacemart.com/reports/Turkey_Signs_Up_For_Asia_Pacific_Space_Program.htm l)

» Israel may sell Turkey an Ofek spy satellite in a $300m deal NoisyRoom.net: Courage is the price that Life exacts for granting peace. Amelia Earhart (http://noisyroom.net/blog/2008/02/12/israel-may-sell-turkey-an-ofek-spy-satellite-in-a-300m-deal/)

Israel's Barak visits Turkey to discuss spy satellite sales - Topix (http://www.topix.com/world/turkey/2008/02/israels-barak-visits-turkey-to-discuss-spy-satellite-sales)

TUSAS1
29 Apr 08,, 08:01
And heres what the US Navy says about the Turkish Armed Forces:

Quoted From Pages 113 to 140 (References are ommited)
“TURKEY’S RESPONSE TO THREATS OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION”
United States Navy
NAVAL POSTGRADUATE SCHOOL
Monterey, California

http://www.nps.edu/academics/sigs/nsa/publicationsandresearch/studenttheses/theses/Al01.pdf

by
Guray Al
December 2001
Thesis Advisor: Peter R. Lavoy
Second Reader: David S. Yost


C. FUTURE CAPABILITIES AND PROCUREMENT PLANS

1. Air Force

Recently, the Turkish air force has undergone great advancements. In this regard, some $45 billion has been earmarked for the air force under Turkey’s 25-year modernization program. Turkey’s procurement plans include electronic warfare systems, command control communication and intelligence (C³I) systems, air-launched precision guided weapons and air defense missiles. The air force has been increasing its holding of F-16 fighters and the co-production of a first batch of 240 aircraft has been completed in two phases of 160 and 80 aircraft. The airforce is also planning to procure 145 attack helicopters with an initial order of 50 from Bell Helicopter Textron King Cobra AH-1Z Company to fulfill Turkey’s attack helicopter requirements. The purchase of attack helicopters might be aimed at hunting Syrian Scud missile launchers in northern and central Syria and the mobile missile launchers in Iraq. Meanwhile, under the “Vision-2005” document, the Turkish Armed Forces plan to add the 5th generation Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) to its inventory. This will replace its current fleet of F-16C/D multimission aircraft by the end of 2015. Moreover, Turkey is participating in the engineering and manufacturing development (EMD) stage of the program at a cost of $1 billion. The Turkish air force also expressed interest in acquiring up to 40 US-made F-15E Strike Eagle fighters. A five-year modernization agreement with Israeli Aircraft Industries to upgrade Turkey’s 54 F-4E aircraft is also among the procurement plans.
Israeli air force has already delivered eight of 54 modernized F-4E Phantoms, elevating them to the Phantom 2000 standard. These aircraft are configured to carry Popeye precision-guided stand-off missiles.

In order to boost the capabilities of the air force, the Turkish government decided to make a major acquisition of tanker aircraft that would increase the flight range of the Turkish air force (TUAF)’s F-16 and F-4 fighter aircrafts. In this regard, it purchased seven U.S. KC-135r tanker aircraft in late 1997 and deliveries were completed in 1998. Meanwhile the air force also leases two U.S. KC-135 tanker aircraft. The purchase of tanker aircrafts to increase the flight range of Turkish fighter planes would allow the Turkish air force to fly deep inside the enemy territory, especially on missions for detecting and identifying WMD production facilities and mobile missile launchers, as well as to pursue retaliatory strikes and conduct counterforce operations beyond enemy territory. Such a capability would also allow the Turkish air force to be more aggressive and to take greater risks when attacking targets in northern Syria and Iraq.
In April of 1996, the Turkish military announced a 30-year $150 billion coproduction deal with foreign partners. The program includes plans for the acquisition of 640 combat aircraft, 750 helicopters and the purchase of four airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft for delivery by 2003. The building of 24 additional F-16 fighters and modernizing and upgrading of seven tanker aircraft, donated by the USA are also among the procurement plans. In November of 1996, Turkey revealed plans to buy Popeye II missiles from Israel for its modernized F-4 fighters and to co-produce another 120. In September 1997 Turkey reportedly considered buying Israel’s Rafael manufactured Phyton-4 air-to-air missiles for the air force. It was also reported that the Turkish air force was proposing to acquire stand-off munitions and jammers, along with high-speed antiradiation (HARM) missiles for the air force’s F-16 Block 50 aircraft.
Presently, Turkey’s punitive strategy with regard to WMD and ballistic missile threats solely relies on its superior air force, particularly on F-16s, F-4s and other capable aircraft, which have the capability to launch Popeye II precision guided missiles to targets as far as 150 miles in range.

2. Intelligence and Early Warning

The Turkish Armed Forces are also improving their assault, defense reconnaissance/surveillance and early warning capabilities. The TUAF embarked on a project to acquire mobile radars and aerial warning and control aircraft and to negotiate the possible purchase of U.S. early warning planes (AWACS). The objective is to eliminate deficiencies in low-altitude radar coverage against enemy missile and air attacks. In January 2000, the minister of national defense, Sabahattin Cakmakoglu, stated that Turkey would purchase four AWACS planes. In December, it was announced that Turkey was to begin negotiations with a Boeing- led team to meet a requirement for six 737 airborne early warning and control (AEW & C) aircraft, with an option for a seventh, plus ground support elements. The Defense Industries Undersecretariat (SSM) has asked Boeing to transfer the software source codes and other key modification and integration technologies associated with the sale of six to eight Boeing 737 airborne early warning and control aircraft (AEW&C).

The Turkish Armed Forces have also followed a three–phased approach for acquiring the necessary capabilities to improve their intelligence gathering and early warning capabilities, especially in the face of increased missile risks to Turkey’s territory and forces. The first phase is Turkey’s plan for advanced reconna issance that began last year (2000) when it ordered high-altitude long-range oblique photography (LOROP) systems from Israel for use on its 42 RF-4 Phantom reconnaissance aircrafts. The second phase is a joint requirement for long- and short-range unmanned air vehicles (UAVs) which will be procured by local production with foreign partners: four long- and short-range UAV for the army, three long-range UAVs for the navy and two long-range UAVs for the air force.345 The $350 million program involves the production of a total of 23 systems of long-range (300km) and eight medium range (200-300 km) which will enable Turkey to gather intelligence and intelligence photographs, particularly of WMD production facilities and mobile missile launchers that might need to be destroyed deep within the Iranian, Iraqi and Syrian territory. 346 In this regard, recently Turkey’s military has decided to accelerate the procurement of unmanned air vehicles to
bolster preparations for any regional conflict. It was reported that the military would buy up to six UAV systems for the air force to bolster its reconnaissance capability within the next three months.

The third phase is a satellite reconnaissance capability. In order to fulfill this requirement, Turkey has made a $240 million deal with France’s Alcatel, and a Turkish spy satellite will be sent into space by the year 2005. As a result, with a capability to launch unmanned reconnaissance flights along its border with Syria, Iraq and Iran by using long-range cameras and electronic sensors that see deep into all three neighboring countries and to monitor troop and missile launcher deployments from space, Turkey would be able to derive real-time data about a potential WMD or ballistic missile attack on Turkish territory.

3. Theatre Missile Defenses

Turkey has considered acquiring a theatre missile defense (TMD). This is partly in response to Iranian moves to develop the 1,300 km range Shabab-3 medium-range ballistic missile, which is capable of reaching most parts of Turkey. Several vital military facilities and some Turkish major cities including Ankara are practically defenseless against missile threats from its southeastern neighbors. For example, it was reported that the Turkish armed forces favored a multi- tier ballistic missile defense (BMD) concept to counter the ballistic missile threat.349 According to this concept, an enemy missile is intercepted high in the atmosphere by a long-range missile. If this intercept is unsuccessful, there will be a second chance to intercept the missile by a shorter-range system as the missile descends toward its target. Ankara officially adopted a two-tier TMD concept. It will soon start discussions on choosing the specific systems to acquire.
The U.S made Patriot systems and U.S.-Israeli Arrow are the likeliest options for antiaircraft and anti- missile defenses for Turkey.

In mid-1999, Turkish officials stated that deploying a missile defense system is a top defense priority and announced procurement plans for medium and long-range airdefense systems. In a related move, Ankara expressed interest in buying Israel’s Arrow-2 anti-tactical ballistic missile (ATBM) systems. The Arrow missile defense plan involves a layered defense, a possible boost-phase interceptor, new battle management systems and sensor and also close cooperation with the U.S. In this regard, in January 2000, Turkey participated in a simulated-theatre-missile defense exercise under the auspices of the Turkish bilateral working group on theatre-missile defense. Since then, Ankara established a simulation system in Turkey to test theatremissile defence concepts. Indeed, the Arrow project is appealing not only because of its
advanced stage of development (the only one of its kind to become operational by the year 2000) and its high level technology, but also because of U.S. involvement. Israel’s Arrow system was successfully tested again in August 2001 and can intercept the most advanced ballistic missile developed in the Middle East, including Iran’s Shabab-3 and Syria’s Scud-D missiles, which have ranges of 1,300 km and 700 km subsequently.

The U.S. Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC-3) Patriot surface-to-air (SAM) system is also seen as the other most likely candidate. The U.S. PAC-3 system was successfully flight- tested in October 2001 and is expected to be ready for an operational test phase quite soon. The tests have proven successful and the PAC-3 missile system was suggested to be fully capable of defeating the entire WMD threat to Turkey, such as tactical ballistic missile, cruise missiles and aircraft and the United States is expected to begin full-rate production in September 2002. Within a NATO Theatre Missile Defense (TMD) context, Turkey has also expressed interest in the Medium Extended Air Defence System (MEADS) being developed on a trilateral basis by the US, Italy and Germany. The MEADs is planned to be fielded by the year 2005. Perceiving vulnerability to potential missile attacks from its southeastern neighbors, the Turkish Defense Ministry also plans to bolster the nation’s airspace. The ministry’s plans will procure of 148 low altitude anti-aircraft batteries and a network of batteries to protect against low- flying missiles.358 The batteries will be composed of Turkish-produced Harpoon and Reckle systems that will protect Turkey’s airports and military bases. Ankara also supports the U.S. plans to deploy a national missile defense system (NMD). Turkey’s proximity to states of proliferation concern encourages support for the project. Therefore, Turkey is much more sympathetic to President Bush’s missile defense plan than most European NATO allies. Turkey considers itself a potential host to NMD interceptors, probably including a defense base in Turkey. 360 The U.S. plan opts for a
boost-phase missile defens e system, which would attack Iraqi or Iranian ballistic missiles shortly after launch. According to Phil Gordon, the U.S. National Security Council’s director for southern Europe, “ It would be necessary to base interceptor missiles near those countries’ borders (Iran and Iraq) in southeastern Turkey. Even if a boost-phase system is not selected, deployment of early warning stations to Turkish territory is likely.”

Turkey is also embarking on the design and production of its own short rangerange missiles, and could move to develop longer-range systems. Under a 10-year program, Turkey and the UK will co-produce 841 Rapier Mk 2B missiles for the Turkish Land Forces and the Turkish Air Force (TUAF) in Turkey at the Turkish facilities near Ankara. It should be also noted that 120 Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS) missiles were transferred to Turkey in December 1995. With a range of 165 kilometers, ATACMS is effective against high-value targets deep behind the battlefield, including deployed ballistic missile launch sites, surface-to-air missiles and command and control units. These missiles can be launched from the Multiple Launch Rocket System, of which Turkey already possesses twelve and offers at least some protection against Iran, Iraq and Syria. Turkey’s efforts to acquire tactical missiles suggest that its incentives to develop its own retaliatory capabilities as opposed to defensive efforts is increasing, as Turkish cities become more and more vulnerable to missiles launched from areas near Turkey.

D. IMPLICATIONS FOR TURKISH SECURITY

Turkey’s conventional military capabilities put Turkey in a superior position visà- vis its southeastern neighbors. In the case of an armed aggression, Turkey’s procurement and military modernization programs suggest that Turkey plans to strike the WMD production facilities and missiles launching sites in the enemy territory with its highly capable air power. At the same time, by penetrating behind the enemy lines and by destroying the enemy missile launchers and other potential delivery means with its special forces, Turkey plans to neutralize enemy’s asymmetrical capabilities (WMD) before they are deployed to forward storage positions.

Conventional superiority, however, might not be sufficient to deter many potential adversaries under all circumstances. A country’s war-winning capabilities might not always mean war-deterring capabilities. It could be a challenge for Turkey to make its conventional capabilities visible to an NBC-armed adversary so that these capabilities may become part of the adversaries’ risk calculation. For example, Israel’s conventional superiority and more importantly nuclear ambiguity did not deter Iraqi missile attacks at Israel during the Desert Storm. In contrast, Iraq fired nearly 90 Al Hussein missiles at Israel and the Arabian Peninsula during Desert Storm. Even while dealing with adversaries that are deterrable, denying the aggressors’ expectations of a quick military victory and political gain by pursuing asymmetric strategies would be very important. And if deterrence fails and NBC-backed aggression occurs, Turkey’s threats to use conventional military force to inflict suffering and massive destruction on the aggressor is less likely to force the aggressor to back down or to capitulate. Thus, it is essential that Turkey acquire the capabilities to deny the enemy the political and military benefits of WMD acquisition. Therefore, analyzing Turkey’s possible defense options and necessary measures to counter the increasing WMD risks to its security in the concluding chapter is necessary.

Here's evidence of the $160 billion modernization which includes, procurement of 640 combat aircraft, 750 helicopters and the purchase of 7 airborne early warning (AWACS) aircraft from NON-TURKISH SOURCES as requested.

It must be noted however:
(1) Two B737 MESA AWACS have already been delivered and are in the Turkish Inventory
(2) In 2006, some changes have been made to the above plans (positive changes). The F-15 purchase has been abandoned in favour of another batch of 150 unknown 5th Generation fighter jet. There is speculation that this will be the Eurofighter Typhoon, co-produced in Trache 3.
(3) The arrow missile defence system has been abandoned in favour of a US or Russian system to be co-produced in Turkey.

The Turkish Air Force is easily in the Top 5 Air Forces in Asia my friend.

The Israeli and Turkish Military alliance is also noteworthy. See a summary of the relationship: JINSA Online -- A New Axis by Daniel Pipes (http://www.jinsa.org/articles/index.html/function/view/categoryid/102/documentid/410/history/3,2360,102,410)

Due to the fact that Turkey has a bad image in the western world (thanks to media) some individuals lack the knowledge about such country's Military power and political orientation. Despite propaganda to the contrary, Turkey is a western, democratic, staunchly secular, constitutional Republic.

In addition, Turkey for a country with the following Military might keeps a modestly low profile in the International Arena. But this does not change the realities. It just proves that Turkey sticks to it National Moto: "PEACE AT HOME, PEACE IN THE WORLD". And Peace only comes with deterence!

If you have any further questions please feel free to ask me and I shall try and answer.

Sumku
29 Apr 08,, 20:49
Good for Turkey. I must state that its impressive.

And I had stated earlier I guess I was quite close when I said that this $160Billion would be distributed over 40 years.

Quite frankly, I have had no idea about Turkey's massive military buildup as I keep myself more focussed on threat perception coming from India's immediate neighbour, with whom we have a 90% chance of seeing a war within our lifetimes, and whenever this happens, it most likely would be
India Vs (Pakistan+China).

But still, even if I were to become PM of India, then despite the threat perception, and despite the perception of this threat turning real with India Vs (Pakistan+China), I still would not allocate 5-6% of GDP on Defense. I would rather Invest that money in Internal Economy, and then allow 2.5% or 3.0% of even greater economy to do its Job.

3.0% of $1.5Trillion economy is one thing and 3.0% of $3.0Trillion economy is quite another.

I frankly dont know if that military buildup with that quantum of money is justified or not for Turkey and that's for something Turkey's people to decide. I guess I am not qualified to comment on the same.

However, since Turkey is spending roughly $5Billion/year, so the threat perception to Turkey I guess would rather be very huge.

All I understand is you are in close proximity to Iran and Syria. Its anyone's guess as to which countries are most likely to go on war with Iran and Syria as both Iran and Syria in their right frame of mind would not Initiate war on Turkey on its own, Turkey also I guess would not be country to Initiate war on Syria and Iran on its own.

But still there are countries who would want to go on War with Syria and Iran. One is Israel and other is US, and when it comes to Iran, it would be US and not Israel.

So what I am saying is that in any event of war against Iran, it would be Turkeys AirForce that would do most of the job against Iranian Airforce. So much for NATO membership and so much to desire for EU recognition, but as I said, I am not qualified enough to comment on matters concerning a country as faroff as Turkey.


Moral of the Story: If every country is preparing for a WorldWarIII, chances are that the World will see another Genocide and Another WorldWarIII.

Officer of Engineers
29 Apr 08,, 21:19
Turkey is not preparing for WWIII. Despite TUSA's enthusiasm, we do have a Turkish combat veteran on this board. His explanations are well within what soldiers see day-to-day. And the day-to-day fact is that a lot of the equipment are reaching the end of their life cycles, so they will have to be replace soon. The question is do you replace them now while the cost factor is still in your favour but your initial outlay would be more or later when you are forced to buy whatever is available because that rusted bucket is now more rust than metal.

While TUSA is vaunting more about the JSF, we identify more with the good Captain when he said he walked more than he ride while still trying to do a mechanized job.

Blademaster
29 Apr 08,, 21:28
While TUSA is vaunting more about the JSF, we identify more with the good Captain when he said he walked more than he ride while still trying to do a mechanized job.

You are saying that the army could not even afford to get trucks? Those vehicles gotta be the cheapest transport of all kinds of transports.

Officer of Engineers
29 Apr 08,, 21:39
More of a case of more broken axles and blown tires.

Sumku
29 Apr 08,, 22:13
OOE, I understand that and this clearly reflects in their existing inventory but still I am amazed by the quantum of money being spent here.

I am almost 100% sure that neither India nor China and definitely not Pakistan are spending this quatum of money that rapidly. I mean almost 6-7% of their GDP on defense.

I honestly dont know the relations between Turkey and Iran, Between Turkey and Syria, I know there are some disputes, but how is it between Turkey and Iran I am not sure. Between Turkey and Israel, I know there are very good relations.

Even if there are tensions between Turkey and Iran, Turkey already has quite a firepower over Iran with their existing inventory.

So why spend so much on modernisation when you are already a leader. China is not going to attack Turkey and nether is India or Pakistan or Russia. On top of it Turkey already is a member of NATO. So what is the need.

The claims like
I did not assert this...however, I do believe that for SOME missions the TuAF is better equipped than China to my opinion are a little far fetched as is this one
Turkish Air Force is easily in the top 2 in Europe it is easily in the top 5 of Asia!

Spending that percentage of GDP on defence when there are no long-term threat perception, or when you already have massive Superiority over all known adversaries, is to me preparing for WWIII

TUSAS1
30 Apr 08,, 02:59
Turkey is not preparing for WWIII. Despite TUSA's enthusiasm, we do have a Turkish combat veteran on this board. His explanations are well within what soldiers see day-to-day. And the day-to-day fact is that a lot of the equipment are reaching the end of their life cycles, so they will have to be replace soon. The question is do you replace them now while the cost factor is still in your favour but your initial outlay would be more or later when you are forced to buy whatever is available because that rusted bucket is now more rust than metal.

While TUSA is vaunting more about the JSF, we identify more with the good Captain when he said he walked more than he ride while still trying to do a mechanized job.

This is partly true Officer of Engineers....The Land Forces WAS ageing....However, to assert that it is dead or lacking the firepower would be a great injustice and dogmatic of the facts. Believe me the Land Forces currently is not as bad as you think it is. I can easily and with comfort state that they are well newer than their European counterparts. Post 2005 alot of things have changed with the Land Forces Command. They once again proved themselves during Operation Sun 3 months ago. It might be interesting to know that the Turkish Land Forces in nearly self-sufficient in terms of Arms procurement. Turkey produces APC, can modernize Tanks, manufactures its ammunition etc. Soon they will be self-sufficient with MBTS and Anti-tank missiles similar in calibre to the Hellfire II (OMTAS and UMTAS Anti-tank missiles- See below)

In my very lengthy factual posting above I did not digress too much into the total overhaul of the Land Forces Command, both technologically and structurally. Turkey's new Land Forces Modernization concept "Force 2014" which is nearly half complete aims to create a force with much more fire power and mobility. In summary it is along these lines: The new strategy is a 20% reduction in man-power, however with the development of a more potent, highly trained, technologically advanced, integrated Land Forces. Some of the new acquisitions are listed below:

Development of Indegenous Anti-tank missiles: Umtas and Omtas Similar to HellFire II Defense Technology International - September 2007 (http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/aw/dti0907/index.php?startpage=46)
30 Bed Mobile Surgical Hospital and Mobile First Aid Stations
Nuclear Biological Chemical (NBC) Protective Suits Project
Special Purpose Tactical Wheeled Armored Vehicles Procurement Project
Turkish Mobile Floating Assault Briges Project
Weapon Carrier Vehicles Project
Wheeled Tactical Vehicles
Amphibious Armoured Combat Earthmovers Procurement
Field Artillery Ammunition Supply Vehicles Procurement
Tank Transporters and Semi-Traillers
Electronic Target Systems For Tank Firing Rangers
Leopard 1A1/A1A4 Tanks Improvement Project
M60 Tank Modernization Project (Sabra Modernization project of M60 Tanks- Turkey has 1000+ M60 Tanks)
New Command and Control Vehicles
Group- I New Armoured Combat Vehicles and Personnel Carriers
Group-II New Armoured Personnel Carriers
Tank Fire Control System
Turkish National Main Battle Tank Project (Plan for 1000+ Next Generation Indegenous MBT's)
KMS Systems
National Rifles and Snipers
Very small Unmanned Helicopters with Laptop for use in the theatre
Special Uniforms: Product of 10 years research (unable to be seen from space and insulating agaisnt extreme temperatures without affecting the mobility or comfort level of soldiers)
Towed Artilery

and this is just afew. For further information refer to Savunma Sanayii Müsteşarlığı - Ana Sayfa (http://www.ssm.gov.tr)

Below are some Turkish Manufactured Land Forces Platforms which are currently in the inventory as of 2005

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8990/trkordusumehmetcik32xv8.jpg
http://wowturkey.com/tr189/Farmir_umtas.jpg
http://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Turquie/exhibition/IDEF_2005/pictures/ACV-S_TLC_IDEF_2005_ArmyREcognition_01.JPG
http://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Turquie/exhibition/IDEF_2005/pictures/Fire_Support_Team_Forward_Observer_Vehicle_ArmyRec ognition_01.jpg
http://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Turquie/exhibition/IDEF_2005/pictures/Firtina_IDEF_2005_ArmyRecognition_01.jpg
http://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Turquie/exhibition/IDEF_2005/pictures/Panter_IDEF_2005_ArmyREcognition_01.jpg
http://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Turquie/exhibition/IDEF_2005/pictures/SA-7_IDEF_2005_ArmyRecognition_01.JPG
http://www2.ssm.gov.tr/katalog2007/data/151/images/PARS%20FoV.jpg
http://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Turquie/exhibition/IDEF_2007/pictures/FNSS_Pars_8x8_Turkey_IDEF_2007_001.jpg
http://www.otokar.com/db/en/products/g/akrep_00.jpg
http://wowturkey.com/tr38/irfan_x_otokar2.jpg
http://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Turquie/exhibition/IDEF_2005/pictures/Land-Rover_Command_Control_Center_ArmyRecognition_01.jp g

TUSAS1
30 Apr 08,, 03:20
OOE, I understand that and this clearly reflects in their existing inventory but still I am amazed by the quantum of money being spent here.

I am almost 100% sure that neither India nor China and definitely not Pakistan are spending this quatum of money that rapidly. I mean almost 6-7% of their GDP on defense. The Turkish GDP (PPP) at the end of last year was $960 billion.

I honestly dont know the relations between Turkey and Iran, Between Turkey and Syria, I know there are some disputes, but how is it between Turkey and Iran I am not sure. Between Turkey and Israel, I know there are very good relations. Its for deterence and NATO objectives.

Even if there are tensions between Turkey and Iran, Turkey already has quite a firepower over Iran with their existing inventory.

So why spend so much on modernisation when you are already a leader. China is not going to attack Turkey and nether is India or Pakistan or Russia. On top of it Turkey already is a member of NATO. So what is the need.

The claims like to my opinion are a little far fetched as is this one

Spending that percentage of GDP on defence when there are no long-term threat perception, or when you already have massive Superiority over all known adversaries, is to me preparing for WWIII


Sumku, Turkey a former Empire has lost in exess of 2 million sq metres of land during World War I, It also has very unfriendly neighbours who want to wipe countries off the map. Add to this the fact that Turkey borders Cold War rivels Russia.... It is only natural for Turkey to have a strong armed forces. Turkeys strategy is DETERENCE. For this to work you must have a very very strong Military capability. Turkey will always try and have the upper hand in the region. This also suits the western free-world as we are the only democratic, staunchly secular, constitutional Republic in the region. We are also not governed by people who truly and sincerly believe that they are divine.

Officer of Engineers
30 Apr 08,, 03:50
However, to assert that it is dead or lacking the firepower would be a great injustice and dogmatic of the facts. Believe me the Land Forces currently is not as bad as you think it is.

1) You don't know what I think.
2) I know the Turks are extremely capable but NOT for any of the reasons you've cited. Like I said, there's a Turkish combat veteran on this board. He has found kindred spirit here and we can discuss operational details that would escape you.

Frankly, I don't care for all your toys that you've listed. I am more interested in the combat leaders ... as do the other veterans on this board.

Officer of Engineers
30 Apr 08,, 03:52
The claims like to my opinion are a little far fetched as is this oneHe's a fan boy. I don't take him seriously.

TUSAS1
30 Apr 08,, 04:31
He's a fan boy. I don't take him seriously.

All the posts given above cannot be refuted. After all, we are in no position to know better than the US Central Intelligence Agency or the US Navy. All I have done is cut and paste data from non-Turkish sources as was requested. It is up to you to believe or not to believe the accuracy of government data. This will also reveal who is infact the real "fan boy".

TUSAS1
30 Apr 08,, 04:36
1) You don't know what I think.
2) I know the Turks are extremely capable but NOT for any of the reasons you've cited. Like I said, there's a Turkish combat veteran on this board. He has found kindred spirit here and we can discuss operational details that would escape you.

Frankly, I don't care for all your toys that you've listed. I am more interested in the combat leaders ... as do the other veterans on this board.

(1) I am no Military strategist and I dont claim to be one.
(2) Lets wait and see what the Turkish combat vetran will say...I'm sure it will be along my lines.
(3) What I mentioned was not in relation to operational details but rather defence procurement.

Also, i dont understand why sudenly whole forum is attacking me and my posts? Isn't the purpose of this forum to talk about anything and everything military?

TopHatter
30 Apr 08,, 04:46
This will also reveal who is infact the real "fan boy".

I'm fairly certain that you are not imply that Officer of Engineers is a fan boy...am I correct?


Also, i dont understand why sudenly whole forum is attacking me and my posts? Isn't the purpose of this forum to talk about anything and everything military?

Probably because you're trying to dictate 'facts' to military professionals who have lived and breathed on battlesfields what you are discussing from the safety and comfort of a computer desk.

You also might want read this post carefully http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/member-introductions/2232-forum-guidelines-revised-2-15-07-a.html#post26377

Officer of Engineers
30 Apr 08,, 04:51
You've already met him. He is the good Captain UCar and I know for a fact, he doesn't play who is the best game. The Turks are the 2nd best AF in Europe? Give me a break. And in case you've forgotten, those are not your nukes. They're American nukes.

Do a search on his post, the good Captain is a Professional Officer. Someone the rest of us can truly work with. I have no qualms of tasking him with any company level operation.

And as for refuting your posts, I ain't got the time nor the energy to care about fanboy fascination with toys. There's an old saying with the military. The mission 1st. The People Always. Frankly, you don't share either of those concerns.

TUSAS1
30 Apr 08,, 05:03
I'm fairly certain that you are not imply that Officer of Engineers is a fan boy...am I correct? Surely, like myself "Officer of Engineers" is also a respectable member in his field, who knows that government documents such as the above i posted dont lie. I am not implying anything.

Probably because you're trying to dictate 'facts' to military professionals who have lived and breathed on battlesfields what you are discussing from the safety and comfort of a computer desk.

No, I am not trying to dictate anything. I am drawing peoples attention to Turkish procurement in the current days. Some things dont need to be experienced in order to know that they exist. Example. The Turkish Prime Minister approves defence procurement contracts, but does he have one on one experience in the field? No he doesnt. Does he know about how the Turkish Armed Forces stacks? You bet he does? How does he know? From briefs given by the Cheif of the General Staff and reports.

I believe that it is very wrong to dismiss everyone that has not been in the field as lay people when it comes to defence. There are engineers, politicians, corporations etc which all work together for defence and they should be most welcome in this forum.

You also might want read this post carefully http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/member-introductions/2232-forum-guidelines-revised-2-15-07-a.html#post26377

a

TopHatter
30 Apr 08,, 05:04
I believe that it is very wrong to dismiss everyone that has not been in the field as lay people when it comes to defence. There are engineers, politicians, corporations etc which all work together for defence and they should be most welcome in this forum.


They are welcome.

And are you one of them?

TUSAS1
30 Apr 08,, 05:11
You've already met him. He is the good Captain UCar and I know for a fact, he doesn't play who is the best game. The Turks are the 2nd best AF in Europe? Give me a break. And in case you've forgotten, those are not your nukes. They're American nukes.

Do a search on his post, the good Captain is a Professional Officer. Someone the rest of us can truly work with. I have no qualms of tasking him with any company level operation.

And as for refuting your posts, I ain't got the time nor the energy to care about fanboy fascination with toys. There's an old saying with the military. The mission 1st. The People Always. Frankly, you don't share either of those concerns.

Sir, with all due respect....stating that the Turkish Air Force is second in Europe should not be a far fetched assertion....Just by looking at the European Air Forces current inventories, the Turkish Air Force can be compared with that of the Luftwaffe, RAF and the French Air Force. The TuAF currently has 519 combat aircraft according to the US Navy. These are 230 F-16, F-4 Terminator 2020, and F-5. They also have alot of combat experience and their pilots are not bad. They have one of the highest number of flight hours after the US Air Force.

Unlike some others on this forum which I have seen, I am not stating that Turkey is a superpower. I am making assertions based on very reputable government documents.

TUSAS1
30 Apr 08,, 05:12
They are welcome.

And are you one of them?

Yes.

Shipwreck
30 Apr 08,, 08:42
Turkey has 3000 M60 Tanks

Source ?

TUSAS1
30 Apr 08,, 10:41
1) You don't know what I think.
2) I know the Turks are extremely capable but NOT for any of the reasons you've cited. Like I said, there's a Turkish combat veteran on this board. He has found kindred spirit here and we can discuss operational details that would escape you.

Frankly, I don't care for all your toys that you've listed. I am more interested in the combat leaders ... as do the other veterans on this board.

Heres what the US Military say about the reason why Turkey has a strong Armed Force:


(1) Deterrence: The maintenance of military force that would act as deterrence against internal and external sources of threat in view of instability and uncertainty around Turkey.
(2) Collective Security: Active participation in international and regional alliances/ organizations, particularly NATO and WEU.
(3) Advanced Defense: Detection of the scope of a possible aggression as early as possible and halting an actual aggression from without.
(4) Military Assistance in Crisis Management.

See PARAMETERS, US Army War College Quarterly - Summer 2000 (http://www.carlisle.army.mil/USAWC/parameters/00summer/hickok.htm)
htt_p://www.carlisle.army.mil/USAWC/parameters/00summer/hickok.htm

TUSAS1
30 Apr 08,, 10:52
Source ?

Thats misleading....the numbers should be like this...I'll edit my post to reflect this:

1000+ M60
3000 M48 (600 upgraded to M60A1, 750 upgraded to M60A3, the rest in storage)


Accompanying the reorganization of the land forces was a significant upgrading of weapons systems, armor, and transport. Under the NATO harmonization program adopted under the CFE Treaty, considerable equipment subject to removal from the central front was passed on to other NATO armies, notably those of Greece and Turkey. Turkey's share included more than 1,000 United States M-60 and German Leopard main battle tanks and some 700 armored combat vehicles, as well as self-propelled howitzers and United States Cobra attack helicopters.

Under the CFE Treaty, NATO and Soviet Union/Warsaw Pact countries also were to reduce the size of their conventional forces. Russia has sought to change this commitment on the grounds that it needs forces for "police" actions and to assist former member states of the Soviet Union, such as Armenia, where Russian troops are stationed. Turkey has endeavored to prevent Russia's backing out on its commitment because, among other reasons, Turkey shares a border with Armenia.

In addition to the arms received as a result of the CFE Treaty, Turkey's arsenal of more than 3,000 M-48 tanks was being upgraded with advanced fire controls. By 1994 deliveries had begun of armored infantry fighting vehicles, large numbers of which were to be supplied under a Turkey/United States coproduction program. Procurement of a multiple-launch rocket system was proceeding under a similar program.
See Turkish Land Forces - Kara Kuvvetleri Komutan (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/tu-army.htm)

Ucar
30 Apr 08,, 10:56
(1) I am no Military strategist and I dont claim to be one.
(2) Lets wait and see what the Turkish combat vetran will say...I'm sure it will be along my lines.
(3) What I mentioned was not in relation to operational details but rather defence procurement.

Also, i dont understand why sudenly whole forum is attacking me and my posts? Isn't the purpose of this forum to talk about anything and everything military?

Dear Tusas

I am joining this discussion only because I was invited by you and fellow members. I had a very nasty experience in the past when I disagreed with a countrymen, and was called "a disgrace" because I did not support all of our country's policies. I hope it will not be repeated this time.

1 - I think the inclusion of TAF in this discussion is flawed, since Turkey identifies itself as a European Country. Therefore, TAF should not be included in this comparison. It was already evaluated under the Top X AFs of Europe thread.

2 - Turkish Armed Forces has a mixed and complicated procurement, and systems distribution policy/organization. The Armed Forces' threat perception, reality and procurement policies until today has not been consistent with each other.
Here are some examples :
Turkey has faced active combat since early 1980s. As of today, Turkish troops are still on the ground without combat vests.
Turkey has faced active combat since early 1980s. As of today, Turkish troops are still on the ground without waterproof footwear.
Turkey has been facing IED and mines since 1980s. Mine protected vehicles for combat troops are still unavailable.
Turkey has possesed UAVs since 1996. As of 3 months ago, Turkey was unable to provide realtime intelligence to its combat troops.
I can easily state a lot more off the top of my head.

3 - Turkish Land Forces training regime is outdated, inflexible, and not corresponding to battlefield realities. Our recruits receive very poor initial training. As a result, we are forces to rely on NCOs heavily, and active troops are recycled very fast. We have not been able to employ effective and continued combat experience on the battlefield as a result. Our operations return mixed results. Today we have battlefield superiority, but not battlefield supremacy against the PKK after 25 years of combat. Our use of modern combat equipment is mismatched with our training.

4 - It is true that Turkish Armed Forces was able to spend a lot of resources on procurement and modernization. The effectiveness of new/modernized systems, by which these policies need to be evaluated, is very surprising and sobering.

5 - The primary problem of Turkish Armed Forces is system integration, and system employment. We are facing serious difficulties in introduction and use of new systems in all branches of the armed forces.

Shortly, what we purchase, we have modest to serious difficulties in using in active combat. Usually, they will not be available to combat units. Moreover, what we purchase is mostly not intended to face what we are doing. Therefore, the utility of systems procurement in the current sense is questionable.

This is why OoE is referring to most of our procurement items as "toys". They look fancy in pictures, but they have "0" (zero) utility in Turkish combat reality.

And Blademaster, as for walking more than riding, it was the result of broken axles, blown tires, and terrain not allowing vehicle movement.

TUSAS1
30 Apr 08,, 11:09
Dear Tusas

I am joining this discussion only because I was invited by you and fellow members. I had a very nasty experience in the past when I disagreed with a countrymen, and was called "a disgrace" because I did not support all of our country's policies. I hope it will not be repeated this time.

1 - I think the inclusion of TAF in this discussion is flawed, since Turkey identifies itself as a European Country. Therefore, TAF should not be included in this comparison. It was already evaluated under the Top X AFs of Europe thread.

2 - Turkish Armed Forces has a mixed and complicated procurement, and systems distribution policy/organization. The Armed Forces' threat perception, reality and procurement policies until today has not been consistent with each other.
Here are some examples :
Turkey has faced active combat since early 1980s. As of today, Turkish troops are still on the ground without combat vests.
Turkey has faced active combat since early 1980s. As of today, Turkish troops are still on the ground without waterproof footwear.
Turkey has been facing IED and mines since 1980s. Mine protected vehicles for combat troops are still unavailable.
Turkey has possesed UAVs since 1996. As of 3 months ago, Turkey was unable to provide realtime intelligence to its combat troops.
I can easily state a lot more off the top of my head.

3 - Turkish Land Forces training regime is outdated, inflexible, and not corresponding to battlefield realities. Our recruits receive very poor initial training. As a result, we are forces to rely on NCOs heavily, and active troops are recycled very fast. We have not been able to employ effective and continued combat experience on the battlefield as a result. Our operations return mixed results. Today we have battlefield superiority, but not battlefield supremacy against the PKK after 25 years of combat. Our use of modern combat equipment is mismatched with our training.

4 - It is true that Turkish Armed Forces was able to spend a lot of resources on procurement and modernization. The effectiveness of new/modernized systems, by which these policies need to be evaluated, is very surprising and sobering.

5 - The primary problem of Turkish Armed Forces is system integration, and system employment. We are facing serious difficulties in introduction and use of new systems in all branches of the armed forces.

Shortly, what we purchase, we have modest to serious difficulties in using in active combat. Usually, they will not be available to combat units. Moreover, what we purchase is mostly not intended to face what we are doing. Therefore, the utility of systems procurement in the current sense is questionable.

This is why OoE is referring to most of our procurement items as "toys". They look fancy in pictures, but they have "0" (zero) utility in Turkish combat reality.

And Blademaster, as for walking more than riding, it was the result of broken axles, blown tires, and terrain not allowing vehicle movement.

Thank you for the first hand insight Ucar. Just afew questions:

(1) Afew months ago a Turkish TV channel was collecting money in order to purchase vests for the Soldiers fighting in Anatolia. The following day this campaign commenced, the Chief of the General Staff stated: We do not need these vests as we have more than enough in stock and also posses a production plant for this purpose. Hence, I also still don't understand why our soldiers are not wearing them? Could it be the weight?
(2) Just today I read somewhere that the Turkish uniforms will be changed completely. Apparently, they will be digital prints which you cannot see from space and they will have some anti-radiation properties. I will try and post a link for you.
(3) There is currently also talk of more professional soldiers. Hence, the 20% downsizing...What are your views?

In addition to this what is your ideas for the future? Are these issues being addressed or thrown under the carpet? I am awaiting you valuable insight.

Officer of Engineers
01 May 08,, 04:38
All right, so you realize right now that your posts meant absolutely squat all. Despite your cheerleading, the Turks have real problems. However, I am extremely dismay that you're not seeing what the good Captain is telling you. Despite the disadvantages, the Turks are getting the job done. The professionalism is there, even if the equipment is not.

I am dismayed that you still continue to ask about the quality of the kit instead of the quality of the man.

As to your questions,

1) What does the regular Turkish combat soldier think? I mean, really, have you try to find out. Is the protection worth the extra weight they have to carry ... and why can't you think of this question?

2) So tell me what is the difference between this pattern and pokey dots after 3 days rolling in the dirt?

3) The Turks lost a real good Officer in UCar when he retired. Does that answer your question?

Big K
01 May 08,, 09:26
Ucar,

so everything comes to an end with the "Human resources" right?...

i mean you can have the equipment but if you can not have the operator theres no combat value...

btw,

as ex-recruit(not been in a combat), i clearly and sadly agree with Ucar...my unit was not a combat unit but,

i remember my basic training....yes....theres a better basic training in the game of "Call of Duty"...a normal recruit during his basics shots 12 rounds if hes lucky...me i shot 9 rounds with a G-3 from 1975 :)

my brother was at a border division....they were called themselves as "border eagles" heheh but my bro and his mates were calling themselves as "border grubs" :))

but please dont forget that many PKK terrorists have their basics in the Turkish Army...by saying this i mean that when we have to judge Turkish Army and defence politics we have to realize the very special statue of Turkey in every manner...

Big K
01 May 08,, 09:32
(2) Just today I read somewhere that the Turkish uniforms will be changed completely. Apparently, they will be digital prints which you cannot see from space and they will have some anti-radiation properties. I will try and post a link for you.

one of my friends father is working for a army contractor textile company and they have a lot of good stuff at hand which they also export to many western armies... the anti-radiation stuff and other interesting stuff like anti-infrared clothes are existing but i think the problem is money...



2) So tell me what is the difference between this pattern and pokey dots after 3 days rolling in the dirt?

what is a pokey dot sir?

Officer of Engineers
01 May 08,, 13:54
what is a pokey dot sir?Big colourful circles that children often draw.

TUSAS1
02 May 08,, 13:50
I think the Military establishment has become aware of this thanks to their NATO partners and we are seeing changes being made to both the structure and training. The Chief of the General Staffs press statements in this regard also support this. They have realised that having 1 million soldiers does not matter when they are poorly trained or lack the technology.

Ucar
02 May 08,, 15:15
Ucar,

so everything comes to an end with the "Human resources" right?...

i mean you can have the equipment but if you can not have the operator theres no combat value...

btw,

as ex-recruit(not been in a combat), i clearly and sadly agree with Ucar...my unit was not a combat unit but,

i remember my basic training....yes....theres a better basic training in the game of "Call of Duty"...a normal recruit during his basics shots 12 rounds if hes lucky...me i shot 9 rounds with a G-3 from 1975 :)

my brother was at a border division....they were called themselves as "border eagles" heheh but my bro and his mates were calling themselves as "border grubs" :))

but please dont forget that many PKK terrorists have their basics in the Turkish Army...by saying this i mean that when we have to judge Turkish Army and defence politics we have to realize the very special statue of Turkey in every manner...

Dear Big K

You are highly accurate in your assesment. We are forced to rely on recruits with a very low degree of prior training. Moreover, the distribution of modern equipment, and the personnel traned in their use is very limited. The living standards of our NCOs, and the social disparities between the officers corps, and the remaining personnel is creating serious frictions.

What happens is, we have to "untrain" recruits and fresh NCOs first, then train them again, all the while having to endure lacking personnel in combat sweeps and patrolling, because on paper the personnel allocation is at 100%. Since we lose a whole class of recruits every 3 months after having them for 3-9 months, this places a heavy burden on personnel who has to conduct training as well as combat duties.

PKK on the other hand, has a very experienced core personnel who are not rotated unless eliminated. In a tactical sense, they have more experience per unit leader when compared to the Turkish Armed Forces. Their advantage is terrain, and mobility. We on the other hand, rely on airmobile tactics, and heavy firepower whenever we can fix them in place.

The new transition to a 100% proffesional unit creation will result in the combination of our current abilities with greater mobility. This will hopefully improve reaction times, and shock ability.

Ucar
02 May 08,, 15:26
Thank you for the first hand insight Ucar. Just afew questions:

(1) Afew months ago a Turkish TV channel was collecting money in order to purchase vests for the Soldiers fighting in Anatolia. The following day this campaign commenced, the Chief of the General Staff stated: We do not need these vests as we have more than enough in stock and also posses a production plant for this purpose. Hence, I also still don't understand why our soldiers are not wearing them? Could it be the weight?
(2) Just today I read somewhere that the Turkish uniforms will be changed completely. Apparently, they will be digital prints which you cannot see from space and they will have some anti-radiation properties. I will try and post a link for you.
(3) There is currently also talk of more professional soldiers. Hence, the 20% downsizing...What are your views?

In addition to this what is your ideas for the future? Are these issues being addressed or thrown under the carpet? I am awaiting you valuable insight.


1 - I am certain that our Chief of Staff has stated complete truth. However, the issue is not whether we have them or not; it is an issue of availability and distribution. They are usually not available to combat units. As for weight, our soldiers on the average start with 35-40 kg of equipment. I am sure a significant number would accept to lose 5-6 kg of this weight, and sacrifice some comfort in exchange for greater protection given the choice.

2 - What defines a good unifom is keeping the cold out, keeping the warmth in, and forcing the sweat out. If this new uniform will do these, congratulations to the designers. Our primary enemy does not spot us from space, or via air surveillance, nor do they employ radiation weapons in combat. As I stated before, equipping as you expect to fight/according to how you fight needs more focus in equipment procurement procedures.

3 - I have stated them in my prior posts. The more people stay in one place, do what they do constantly, and enhance team integration, the better the outcome.

gunnut
02 May 08,, 19:04
as ex-recruit(not been in a combat), i clearly and sadly agree with Ucar...my unit was not a combat unit but,

Were you conscripted or were you a volunteer?



i remember my basic training....yes....theres a better basic training in the game of "Call of Duty"...a normal recruit during his basics shots 12 rounds if hes lucky...me i shot 9 rounds with a G-3 from 1975 :)

That's it? Nine whole rounds? How can anyone be proficient with only 9 rounds of practice on a rifle? :eek:

Big K
02 May 08,, 19:22
Were you conscripted or were you a volunteer?

i was conscripted in 12 april 2004.


That's it? Nine whole rounds? How can anyone be proficient with only 9 rounds of practice on a rifle? :eek:

i was a gendarmerie and yes only 9 whole rounds including the aiming training and a run(1km)&shot exercise.

and i was in service only 6 months! btw, once my commanding NCO got angered to me because of my -extra-shiny boots..... :)) i was using a special boot wax which shines 2 times more than the rest of squad :)) ;)

my brother was regular infantry and he had a lot more than me as combat training.

but if i am not wrong theres some commando units and their training is much more intense...

Sumku
04 May 08,, 15:05
Are we still oncourse as concerns this Thread?

TUSAS1
04 May 08,, 23:48
Are we still oncourse as concerns this Thread?

Well we were talking about the 650 Combat aircraft and 750 Helicopeters the Turkish Air Force will be acquiring under the $160 billion modernization plans, however, the forum somehow shifted into describing the deficiencies in the Turkish Land Forces..... :rolleyes:

Sumku
05 May 08,, 00:26
Correct, so lets get back on Track

Tronic
05 May 08,, 00:41
Well we were talking about the 650 Combat aircraft and 750 Helicopeters the Turkish Air Force will be acquiring under the $160 billion modernization plans, however, the forum somehow shifted into describing the deficiencies in the Turkish Land Forces..... :rolleyes:

Well, a good read nevertheless. I had heard of training deficiencies in the Turkish army from some of my Turkish friends but never took it to be too serious. The situation seems bad, but then again, we're talking of conscripts. The regulars get better training, i.e. better then 9 rounds training, right? :eek:

TUSAS1
05 May 08,, 00:50
Well, a good read nevertheless. I had heard of training deficiencies in the Turkish army from some of my Turkish friends but never took it to be too serious. The situation seems bad, but then again, we're talking of conscripts. The regulars get better training, i.e. better then 9 rounds training, right? :eek:

The professional soldiers get between 2 and 4.5 years training. I will not even attempt to criticize the professional soldiers. These soldiers are usually found in the Navy and Air Forces.

Thank fully, the concripts will also be more trained. The Chief of the General Staff has acknowledged the problem and it is currently being overhauled as we speak.

TUSAS1
05 May 08,, 01:13
i was conscripted in 12 april 2004.



i was a gendarmerie and yes only 9 whole rounds including the aiming training and a run(1km)&shot exercise.

and i was in service only 6 months! btw, once my commanding NCO got angered to me because of my -extra-shiny boots..... :)) i was using a special boot wax which shines 2 times more than the rest of squad :)) ;)

my brother was regular infantry and he had a lot more than me as combat training.

but if i am not wrong theres some commando units and their training is much more intense...

There is a major difference between the Gendarmerie and the Turkish Army in both training and structure. The Gendarmerie could be considered as Military police with heavy weapons. Thus, I don't believe that the deficiencies in the Gendarmerie reflect the deficiencies in the Turkish Army.

I am 100% sure that NATO would not allow its second largest Army contingent to be in the state that the Gendarmerie is in. Turkish Army training is no different to its NATO counterparts. As part of NATO's interpolarity agreements this is evident.

I would also like to draw the attention of the forumers to the fact that Israeli Commando's are trained at the Bolu Dağ Komando School at the request of General Dan Halutz, Chief of the Israeli General Staff


While the Israeli fighter plains have been conducting training flights in the Turkish airspace from the airbase in Konya, the Israeli commandos have been receiving snow training in Bolu mountains for some time. The military relations between the two countries are being supported by co-operation in the fields of defense industry and intelligence sharing against terrorism.
See Israel seeks an alliance with Turkey against Iran (http://www.payvand.com/news/07/feb/1301.html)


Israeli Army Chief Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz arrived in Turkey in a week. According to the Israeli officials the reason for the visit is to develop the dialogue and co-operation between Turkey and Israel. However the questions were similar to those of Americans. Iran, Syria and Iraq were the foremost priorities. The Israeli Army Chief further asked permission for training the Israeli commandos in Turkey’s Bolu and Hakkari mountains. Halutz said “our commandos cannot see snow, the whether in Israel is quite hot. If they can be trained in Turkey they would be ready for the winter conditions”. Turkey provides Israeli Air Force training opportunities in Konya Valley. The problem is why Israel wants to be ready for the mountain and winter circumstances? There is no cold neighboring country around Israel. The only places Israeli commandos could use their training are Turkey, Iran and Northern Iraq.
See JTW News - Targets are Iran and Syria (http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=24155)

See KeHaber WebGlocal News (http://kehaberler.blogspot.com/2005/12/israel-genelkurmay-bakan-dan-halutz.html) (In Turkish)


The Turkish Weekly journal claimed further revelations. In a December 27 article it said Halutz had asked permission for training Israeli commandos in Turkey's Bolu and Hakkari mountains. The magazine speculated that the Israeli request had to do with preparations for operations in northwestern Iran's mountainous territory. See Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HA24Ak02.html)

gimini
08 May 08,, 11:57
lets have a voting for top 5 airfroces of asia. here is my list:-

1) china ( very huge,200 flankers)

2)japan

3)isreal ( very modern )

4)south korea/saudi arabia

5)india ( huge,variety of some decent fighters like MKI's,Miraaz-2000-H,Mig-29 )

Top 5 Air Force in asia
1.China
2.India
3.Japan
4.S.Korea
5.Tiwan
:cool:

Sumku
08 May 08,, 21:23
Taiwan? From where did Taiwan come here? and where is Russia?

Sinister
08 May 08,, 21:57
Most people would count the asian part of Russia's airfields and airforce when talking about asia and I don't think there is a lot there , and PLAAF is certainly not infront of Israel, Japan and India when will people learn that PLAAF is mostly outdated and very poorly trained..

gimini
09 May 08,, 15:14
Taiwan? From where did Taiwan come here? and where is Russia?

Russia in not part of Asia I Meaning its European Country
Think of Russia as an estan European country
Well twain has huge number of fighter jets brought from USA more then 150 F-14 & F-15

Officer of Engineers
10 May 08,, 02:25
when will people learn that PLAAF is mostly outdated and very poorly trained..Your info is out-dated. The late Cmdr Wang Wei is evidence that the PLA do practice with their kits a lot. Also, the oldest kit in active PLAAF service is the J-7, the MiG-21 - just like the Indians.


Russia in not part of Asia I Meaning its European Country
Think of Russia as an estan European countryTell that to the Chinese when they were facing 45 Soviet Divisions and 1000+ aircrafts


Well twain has huge number of fighter jets brought from USA more then 150 F-14 & F-15WTF?

Air Force - Taiwan (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/taiwan/airforce.htm)

gimini
10 May 08,, 13:07
Can any one give exact number of fighter jets Taiwan has

GAU-8
10 May 08,, 13:39
Can any one give exact number of fighter jets Taiwan has

Hi Gimini,

Here's what the Global Security site has on the ROC AF:
Air Force - Taiwan (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/taiwan/airforce.htm)

Here is what Scramble has on the ROC AF order of battle:Republic of China Air Force - Chung-Hua Kong Jun - Order of Battle, Maps, Squadrons, Badges, Photo's, Air bases, Database etc etc (http://www.scramble.nl/tw.htm)

Hope this helps.

lambroast
04 Jun 08,, 07:09
I would of thought those middle eastern countries are in the middle east, not asia. Do you consider Australia to be in asia or Australasia?
My top 10 would be as follows:
Number 1 China $59 billion
J11-80 J10-90 Su33-2 Su30-100 Su-27-76 J8II-250 J8-50 j7-250
Number 2 Japan $42 billion F15-136 F4-91 F2-33 F1-23
Number 3 South Korea F16-153 F5-185 F4-130
Number 4 India $26.5 billion 180-Su30 250-Mig21 Mirage 2000-29 Mig27-110 Mig29 Jaguar is-89
Number 5 Australia $25 billion F111-42 F/A18-80 Hawk-33 Future: F18E-24 JSF-100

Sumku
04 Jun 08,, 14:47
lol :tongue:
South Korea and Japan above India:confused:

Officer of Engineers
04 Jun 08,, 15:50
Japan has an extremely powerful American built Air Force.

Sumku
04 Jun 08,, 16:01
Japan has an extremely powerful American built Air Force.

Know that, but Size also matters.Quantity has a Quality of its own.

Frankly speaking in a One-on-One take between India and Japan[without US support], which AF most likely has the capability to go all the way to the shores of the other country on its own, win and come back? I Guess thats what really should matter when deciding the capability of the AF and not how many Superpowers would come to the rescue of one of the country?

You seriously think that Japan or SouthKorea can do that to India?

kuku
04 Jun 08,, 16:06
indeed
E-3 Sentry, hawk eye, 767 airborne refueling aircraft supporting all of the fighters.

Its a very strong airforce, and with that they have a very strong ally, USA.

kuku
04 Jun 08,, 16:09
Know that, but Size also matters.Quantity has a Quality of its own.

Frankly speaking in a One-on-One take between India and Japan[without US support], which AF most likely has the capability to go all the way to the shores of the other country on its own, win and come back? I Guess thats what really should matter when deciding the capability of the AF and not how many Superpowers would come to the rescue of one of the country?

You seriously think that Japan or SouthKorea can do that to India?
Both india and Japan will ride out the imaginary conflict, they do not have the capability to go knocking on each others doors.

Even in this imaginary conflict IAF will be wise enough to keep its assets right here in India instead of taking a symbolic strike all the way to japan, in front of the threat of all the surveillance equipment and subsequently in-coming missiles(shore based, air based and sea based), the same goes for japan, no point comparing these two AFs

Sumku
04 Jun 08,, 16:13
Correct Assumption. But this also means that Japan cannot be rated above India under any scenario, as pertains capability and when comparing numbers India has more quantity than Japan so India would be rated above Japan.

Technically speaking for me, I would include Russia to be a part of Asia, so in Asia IAF ranks just after Russia and China.

kuku
04 Jun 08,, 16:29
I would of thought those middle eastern countries are in the middle east, not asia. Do you consider Australia to be in asia or Australasia?
My top 10 would be as follows:

Number 1 China $59 billion
J11-80
J10-90
Su33-2
Su30-100
Su-27-76
J8II-250
J8-50
j7-250

Number 2 Japan $42 billion
F15-136
F4-91
F2-33
F1-23

Number 3 South Korea
F16-153
F5-185
F4-130

Number 4 India $26.5 billion
180-Su30
250-Mig21
Mirage 2000-29
Mig27-110
Mig29
Jaguar is-89

Number 5 Australia $25 billion
F111-42
F/A18-80
Hawk-33


Taiwan would be way above Australia if all we have to do is to count the planes.

India doesn't have 180 Su-30s, not yet(230 will be inducted eventually), and it does not have 250 Mig-21s not anymore, the exact number of MiG-21s is a mystery, no one online seems to know.
The number of Mirage-2000 is around 50, MiG-29s is around 60-65.

I think you missed what is supporting these planes, Indian Air Force might come below a lot of AFs as it lacks any AEW/C&C planes, and the ones on order just got delayed further, recent additions of airborne refueling planes has added some teeth, Another would be the EW/surveillance capability etc. etc.

Officer of Engineers
04 Jun 08,, 16:32
You seriously think that Japan or SouthKorea can do that to India?Neither can India do that to Japan. Don't know about South Korea but Japan was a front line state against the USSR. South Korea was and is too preocuppied with North Korea. India has never imagined itself against a superpower in WWIII.

Thakur
04 Jun 08,, 17:36
80% of chineese fighter planes are straight away ticket to heaven. They cant rely on su27 in case of a war. SU 27 is a good aircraft but this plane can't share all of the burden in case of war. So in my view most of the chineese planes will straight away be shot down in case of war with either India, Japan or Taiwan.

Thakur
04 Jun 08,, 17:40
The numbers posted above for chineese aircraft are completely wrong and based on an imagination. Right now china does not have any J-10 nor J-11 Aircraft. Rest Chineese su-27 and su 30 mkk can't stand in front of IAF su 30mki. Even Our yet to be Upgraded Mirage 2000 to a level of Mirage 2000-5 and Upgraded Mig 29 can take on any Fighter Plane that china has. :D

Officer of Engineers
04 Jun 08,, 17:44
What?

Last I checked there were 4 J-10 regiments and 6 J-11 Regiments.

kuku
04 Jun 08,, 18:36
Correct Assumption. But this also means that Japan cannot be rated above India under any scenario, as pertains capability and when comparing numbers India has more quantity than Japan so India would be rated above Japan.

Technically speaking for me, I would included Russia to be a part of Asia, so in Asia IAF ranks just after Russia and China.


Well the thing is that a AF to me has to rated on its ability to carry out the required missions.

The Japanese AF element has had a solid AEW/AWAC aircraft element for some time and that gives them an edge as far as defensive operations go.

I think the constitution of Japan has something against ofensive weapons which sounds ironical i mean what is a non offensive weapon, a missile that travels all the way to its target and gives a strong warning before fizzing out ever so quietly ?????

What are the overall capability of japanese air force element to carry out offensive operations?
What planes?
What weapons?
What doctrine?

mxiong
05 Jun 08,, 13:40
... Right now china does not have any J-10 nor J-11 Aircraft...

Get your fact straight, idiot...

http://www.ausairpower.net/Chengdu-J-10-Xinhua-0ES.jpg

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/images/j11_02large.jpg

Sumku
05 Jun 08,, 17:52
Get your fact straight, idiot...

Wordings like these are way too personal. Please try to avoid them.Dont go personal.If you had to make a point you could still have posted what you did without that lone word.

Officer of Engineers
05 Jun 08,, 18:12
Wordings like these are way too personal. Please try to avoid them.Dont go personal.If you had to make a point you could still have posted what you did without that lone word.I second that. Mxiong, consider this a warning.

Mohan
06 Jun 08,, 01:39
I would like to ask. How many pilots are serving there in those countries, where can i search for the information. does any body know about it.

Sumku
07 Jun 08,, 14:17
Can anyone have a look at the pics posted above by mxiong and state the AC thats shown here.To me its not anything even close to 4.5 or 4 Gen AC.

Sumku
07 Jun 08,, 14:20
I would like to ask. How many pilots are serving there in those countries, where can i search for the information. does any body know about it.

Something tells me its a pretty tough question that you have asked.I tried to Google it out to check for myself, but googling for France,after about 10 different searches, I came across 3 different sites all with Different numbers.

Officer of Engineers
07 Jun 08,, 16:39
Can anyone have a look at the pics posted above by mxiong and state the AC thats shown here.To me its not anything even close to 4.5 or 4 Gen AC.It's a J-10 regiment.