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Bill
14 May 04,, 22:02
Vatican Warns Catholics Against Marrying Muslims

Fri May 14

By Shasta Darlington

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican (news - web sites) warned Catholic women on Friday to think hard before marrying a Muslim and urged Muslims to show more respect for human rights, gender equality and democracy.

Calling women "the least protected member of the Muslim family," it spoke of the "bitter experience" western Catholics had with Muslim husbands, especially if they married outside the Islamic world and later moved to his country of origin.


The comments in a document about migrants around the world were preceded by remarks about points of agreement between Christians and Muslims but they seemed likely to fuel mistrust between the world's two largest religions.


The document said the Church discouraged marriages between believers in traditionally Catholic countries and non-Christian migrants.


It hoped Muslims would show "a growing awareness that fundamental liberties, the inviolable rights of the person, the equal dignity of man and woman, the democratic principle of government and the healthy lay character of the state are principles that cannot be surrendered."


When a Catholic woman and Muslim man wanted to marry, it said, "bitter experience teaches us that a particularly careful and in-depth preparation is called for."


It said one possible problem was with Muslim in-laws and advised future mothers that they must insist on Church policy that children born of a mixed marriage be baptized and brought up as Catholics.


If the marriage is registered in the consulate of a Muslim country, the document said, the Catholic must be careful not to sign a document or swear an oath including the shahada, the Islamic profession of faith, which would amount to converting.


DIFFERENT APPROACHES


The document highlighted the contrasting approaches the Vatican has taken in recent years toward Islam, which has emerged as a strong rival for souls, especially in Africa.


Pope John Paul (news - web sites) has broken ground in dialogue with Muslims and even prayed in a mosque in Damascus. He won plaudits in the Muslim world for his strong opposition to the Iraq (news - web sites) war.


But Vatican officials and leading Catholic prelates have expressed increasingly critical views about the spread of Islam and the challenge this poses for Catholicism.


The Vatican's top theologian, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, said earlier this week the West "no longer loves itself" and so was unable to respond to the challenge of Islam, which was growing because it expressed "greater spiritual energy."


The migration document also discouraged churches from letting non-Christians use their places of worship.


This issue arose last month when Muslims in Spain asked to be able to pray in Cordoba cathedral, which was once a mosque. A senior Vatican official said this would be "problematic."



LOL, i love it. ;)

Confed999
15 May 04,, 00:44
I like this Pope. It's too bad he's gotten so sick lately.

Lunatock
15 May 04,, 01:26
You should of seen how much the abomination/Catholic extremist my dad married about ten years ago was chomping at the bit over me being in a church to attend my younger brothers Christening.

And it was already said & done before it & my older brother found out that I'm Muslim. (I'll have to drop you an e-mail sometime about the rules they thought up & my brother tried to enforce, after DSgt. Rozick told him about that.)

Aryan
15 May 04,, 03:49
You should of seen how much the abomination/Catholic extremist my dad married about ten years ago was chomping at the bit over me being in a church to attend my younger brothers Christening.

And it was already said & done before it & my older brother found out that I'm Muslim. (I'll have to drop you an e-mail sometime about the rules they thought up & my brother tried to enforce, after DSgt. Rozick told him about that.)

Woah, you're muslim? I didn't know...Its nice though...you don't get many liberal muslims nowadays unfortunately :mad:

Aryan
15 May 04,, 03:52
It really irritates me when religious leaders decide to criticise other religions in a bid to promote their own, those in glass mosques/churches/synagogues certainly should not go about throwing stones.

Lunatock
15 May 04,, 04:51
Woah, you're muslim? I didn't know...Its nice though...you don't get many liberal muslims nowadays unfortunately :mad:

Liberal? :rolleyes:

And if you didn't catch on from the joke that is my title, yes I am. Tend to only tell certain people. Got pretty good at guessing which ones would be bad news.

Aryan
15 May 04,, 05:09
Which joke? Sorry for being slow, I haven't slept for two days....

Leader
15 May 04,, 08:03
You should of seen how much the abomination/Catholic extremist my dad married about ten years ago was chomping at the bit over me being in a church to attend my younger brothers Christening.

And it was already said & done before it & my older brother found out that I'm Muslim. (I'll have to drop you an e-mail sometime about the rules they thought up & my brother tried to enforce, after DSgt. Rozick told him about that.)

Nice to know you’re a Muslim. That make one more good Muslim out there fighting the good fight against the extremists, and above all speaking out which is something you don't see much of.

Did you grow up a Muslim or did you convert later in life?

headlessbarbie
15 May 04,, 10:59
lunitock... so far I haven't understood a damn thing you have said.... are you using slang?

ANYWAY

I work the clothing department in the worlds largest retail store

There are 5 Muslims that work in my department... 5. that is about 1/4 of the dpt..

Any way I enjoy working with them very much. They all fled to the US from Iran during the revolution.

One is a very short and adorable lil old lady.. and if I say "Iatola Komeiny" (I know That can't be spelled right) I'll get a "ta! baaa, stupid Iatola" out of her. Any way they are all good Americans and love this country but miss their homeland. They are all good people I really like em. one time some very Islamic looking woman walked by, Azam gerks her thumb pointing at the Islamic lady (who had everything convered but her eyes) and hissed... 'ta baaa stupid radical." She is just so cute.

One of the ladies lost an eye because of Sadam, they told me she CELEBRATED when they captured him. I was glad for her too.

er

I wonder why a radical Islamic woman would be looking at clothes in my department??? I had about 4 different radical ladies in my department looking around in a weeks time. ???? well I think they where different women It was hard to tell since I could only see their eyes

Trooth
15 May 04,, 11:17
I wonder why a radical Islamic woman would be looking at clothes in my department??? I had about 4 different radical ladies in my department looking around in a weeks time. ???? well I think they where different women It was hard to tell since I could only see their eyes

So, you think they are naked under the blackout ...

The teases.

Trooth
15 May 04,, 11:22
So, to sum up this religious advice :-

"Girls, if you are going to marry a traditional muslim, realise that your position in a muslim society is different from that in, say, a more westernised society.".

"Catholics - get with the programme, we are losing our power, we used to control countries, now we are at risk of losing members to another religion through marriage, and the loss of their descendants"

or, to summarise the summary :-

"Hands off our women".

And since when has catholicism been the liberator of women? Wasn't it this Pope that helpfully explained that "women were born to suffer" to explain the Roman Catholic church's position on a matter.

Confed999
15 May 04,, 16:41
to summarise the summary :-

"Hands off our women".
Really? All I see is the leader of a religon, warning the women who look up to him for advice, that the Muslim culture isn't allways friendly toward women. I can't dispute that.

Lunatock
15 May 04,, 18:08
lunitock... so far I haven't understood a damn thing you have said.... are you using slang?

Got a better question...what's the big idea with barging into the convo and acting rude as well as trolling up the thread?

Aryan
15 May 04,, 18:21
Liberal? :rolleyes:

And if you didn't catch on from the joke that is my title, yes I am. Tend to only tell certain people. Got pretty good at guessing which ones would be bad news.

OKay, liberal isn't a nice word, would secular would be better? I consider myself a secular muslim as well, not very religious though. How would you define yourself?

Lunatock
15 May 04,, 19:29
Secular would be the word. Born and raised here in the States. Heck, I'm not even close to being decended from anyone or anywhere near the Middle East.


And the joke you asked about? The custom title: W.A.B. Spiritual Leader. :biggrin:

Aryan
15 May 04,, 19:55
Secular would be the word. Born and raised here in the States. Heck, I'm not even close to being decended from anyone or anywhere near the Middle East.



Do you get racism from muslim communities, especially middle eastern communities in America? I heard its pretty widespread and I've got a pretty sad story about a guy I know who converted here.

Lunatock
15 May 04,, 19:59
Do you get racism from muslim communities, especially middle eastern communities in America? I heard its pretty widespread and I've got a pretty sad story about a guy I know who converted here.

Found out that a lot of them are big on insults, lieing, and backstabbing. Used to attend a real backwards Islamic center until thier BS started making me want to dish out my own. That point was when I just stopped going there.

What was the story about the guy you know that converted? If you don't mind being asked.

Aryan
15 May 04,, 20:17
Found out that a lot of them are big on insults, lieing, and backstabbing. Used to attend a real backwards Islamic center until thier BS started making me want to dish out my own. That point was when I just stopped going there.

Tell me about it!


What was the story about the guy you know that converted? If you don't mind being asked.

This guy met and got to know a sheikh of some Arab mosque in London. He was introduced to islam by him, and he converted. He was taught islam by him for a number of years, and would be invited to his house and meet his family etc. He became a really good friend of his, and both thought highly of each other...

To cut a long story short, the sheikh's daughter liked my friend, and made it clear to him. My friend could have done the wrong thing and went behind the sheikhs' back for her, he liked her a lot and they both had much in common, but he went straight to the sheikh to ask for her hand. When the sheikh heard this, he got really angry, and told him never to come near his daughter. When he asked why, sheikh said he was "unsuitable" for her, I'm sure you figure out what that means. Skeikh pretty soon broke off all contact with my friend.

I agree with you 100% hypocrisy is strife in some islamic communities...

Lunatock
15 May 04,, 21:29
Seems to be an all too common theme when people discuss Arabs. Found out myself that Chechens are quite different.

Heard that Persians, mainly those living in this country are nice people as well...just as long as you don't call them Arabs.

And because the story deserved to be told somewhere...a poster on AR15.com who's Muslim, but not the least bit Middle Eastern or Asian said that someone trying to pick a fight called him a "dune coon".
The instigator had to walk away because this guy started laughing uncontrollably, and wasn't able to keep a straight face for half an hour after hearing that phrase for the first time.

Aryan
15 May 04,, 22:33
Seems to be an all too common theme when people discuss Arabs. Found out myself that Chechens are quite different.

Heard that Persians, mainly those living in this country are nice people as well...just as long as you don't call them Arabs.

And because the story deserved to be told somewhere...a poster on AR15.com who's Muslim, but not the least bit Middle Eastern or Asian said that someone trying to pick a fight called him a "dune coon".
The instigator had to walk away because this guy started laughing uncontrollably, and wasn't able to keep a straight face for half an hour after hearing that phrase for the first time.


Not many Chechens here, but I've only heard praise about them... Iranians are great people too, I know quite a few. In fact the only groups I don't like are the arabs....

Lunatock
16 May 04,, 00:17
Not many Chechens here, but I've only heard praise about them... Iranians are great people too, I know quite a few. In fact the only groups I don't like are the arabs....

There doesn't seem to be many here in the states, and those Chechens that do live here are scattered all over the place. First met some of them in 1993, Lithuania's capital city, Vilnius.

If I had met any Iranians, I hadn't ever known it. Never actually met anyone that said they were Persian.

visioninthedark
17 May 04,, 23:44
i'm a SECULAR Pakistani Muslim myself .... and I've been around quite a bit to most arab countries on business .... and Ive been to Iran too ....

arabs are the worst of the worst .... indecent, impolite, racist, and lazy

iranians (WHO ARE NOT ARABS .... LIKE US PAKISTANIS) are quite the opposite ... always warm and welcoming .... polite, curteous, civilised and very very cooperative ...

I bear a deep dislike and hold contemptous disgust for arabs and anything arabic ...

Trooth
17 May 04,, 23:54
Any other cultural stereotypes anyone want to go for?

I'll lead, and because i wouldn't want to offend any other group, i'll have a go at my own kind :-

All Briton's have bad teeth.

Who's next?

Ironduke
18 May 04,, 00:32
Any other cultural stereotypes anyone want to go for?

I'll lead, and because i wouldn't want to offend any other group, i'll have a go at my own kind :-

All Briton's have bad teeth.

Who's next?
French women don't shave their armpits, and French people have never heard of soap....

Wait, that's not a stereotype..... :)

Bill
18 May 04,, 01:34
Frenchmen have a penchant for surrender.

Oh, that's true too...

Aryan
18 May 04,, 01:38
French are rude and arrogant, and pretend not to understand a word of English when they are probably pretty fluent in it...

Lunatock
18 May 04,, 01:41
From a part-Irish American: You Brits stink. And Tony Blair dresses you funny. (mean spirited joke)

How about?: The French shown thier gratitude for liberation during WW2 by removing the American flag from the D-Day Memorial. And if they had enough shutzpah they'd probably did up the graves of Americans that died at Normandy and bury them in a landfill. Oh wait...facts again.

visioninthedark
18 May 04,, 01:48
since I'm a Pakistani .... here goes;

Pakistanis love argueing for arguments sake .... just argueing for no reason .....

Bill
18 May 04,, 02:17
They're burying our war dead in landfills Luna?

LINK!!!

Trooth
18 May 04,, 02:23
Everyone (except for vision) picked on the stereotypes of others.

Hmmm.

Bill
18 May 04,, 03:08
What makes you think i'm not a coward....errr.....french.

Sorry, fruedian slip. ;)

themuffinman
18 May 04,, 03:21
French women don't shave their armpits, and French people have never heard of soap....

Wait, that's not a stereotype..... :)

I like Beans so you can call me a Beaner

Lunatock
18 May 04,, 05:48
Thier actually not. They don't have the balls to do it, that's basically what I said. (Think that's what Chutzpah means in English. Maybe BR can confirm that.)

As for racial jokes. Something George Carling said once:

Bombing brown people, that's what we do. We bomb brown people. Iraq, Panama, Grenada, Libya. If you got some brown people in your country tell 'em to watch the fuck out! Or we'll fucking bomb them!
Whens the last time we fought white people?, the Germans!, thier the only ones. And that's because they were trying to cut in on our action. They were trying to rule the world...bullshit!, that's our fucking job!