PDA

View Full Version : Europeon Intifada is beginning...



Lunatock
27 Apr 04,, 00:45
Who else would assume this will be an even bigger debacle than the train bombings, and will spread across the Atlantic? (Would Patterson, NJ's head honcho cross the line in the dirt Matt Hale backed away from?)

Europe Openly Call for Jihad, Rule of Islam
By PATRICK E. TYLER and DON VAN NATTA Jr.

LUTON, England, April 24 The call to jihad is rising in the streets of Europe, and is being answered, counterterrorism officials say.

In this former industrial town north of London, a small group of young Britons whose parents emigrated from Pakistan after World War II have turned against their families' new home. They say they would like to see Prime Minister Tony Blair dead or deposed and an Islamic flag hanging outside No. 10 Downing Street.

They swear allegiance to Osama bin Laden and his goal of toppling Western democracies to establish an Islamic superstate under Shariah law, like Afghanistan under the Taliban. They call the Sept. 11 hijackers the "Magnificent 19" and regard the Madrid train bombings as a clever way to drive a wedge into Europe.

On Thursday evening, at a tennis center community hall in Slough, west of London, their leader, Sheik Omar Bakri Mohammad, spoke of his adherence to Osama bin Laden. If Europe fails to heed Mr. bin Laden's offer of a truce provided that all foreign troops are withdrawn from Iraq in three months Muslims will no longer be restrained from attacking the Western countries that play host to them, the sheik said.

"All Muslims of the West will be obliged," he said, to "become his sword" in a new battle. Europeans take heed, he added, saying, "It is foolish to fight people who want death that is what they are looking for."


More From the Times


Problems in All Child Welfare Programs
In Pursuit of the Young Male Reader
Argentine Priest Faces 'Dirty War' Charges


On working-class streets of old industrial towns like Crawley, Luton, Birmingham and Manchester, and in the Arab enclaves of Germany, France, Switzerland and other parts of Europe, intelligence officials say a fervor for militancy is intensifying and becoming more open.

In Hamburg, Dr. Mustafa Yoldas, the director of the Council of Islamic Communities, saw a correlation to the discord in Iraq. "This is a very dangerous situation at the moment," Dr. Yoldas said. "My impression is that Muslims have become more and more angry against the United States."

Hundreds of young Muslim men are answering the call of militant groups affiliated or aligned with Al Qaeda, intelligence and counterterrorism officials in the region say.

Even more worrying, said a senior counterterrorism official, is that the level of "chatter" communications among people suspected of terrorism and their supporters has markedly increased since Mr. bin Laden's warning to Europe this month. The spike in chatter has given rise to acute worries that planning for another strike in Europe is advanced.

"Iraq dramatically strengthened their recruitment efforts," one counterterrorism official said. He added that some mosques now display photos of American soldiers fighting in Iraq alongside bloody scenes of bombed out Iraqi neighborhoods. Detecting actual recruitments is almost impossible, he said, because it is typically done face to face.

And recruitment is paired with a compelling new strategy to bring the fight to Europe.

Members of Al Qaeda have "proven themselves to be extremely opportunistic, and they have decided to try to split the Western alliance," the official continued. "They are focusing their energies on attacking the big countries" the United States, Britain and Spain so as to "scare" the smaller states.

Some Muslim recruits are going to Iraq, counterterrorism officials in Europe say, but more are remaining home, possibly joining cells that could help with terror logistics or begin operations like the one that came to notice when the British police seized 1,200 pounds of ammonium nitrate, a key bomb ingredient, in late March, and arrested nine Pakistani-Britons, five of whom have been charged with trying to build a terrorist bomb.

Stoking that anger are some of the same fiery Islamic clerics who preached violence and martyrdom before the Sept. 11 attacks.

On Friday, Abu Hamza, the cleric accused of tutoring Richard Reid before he tried to blow up a Paris-to-Miami jetliner with explosives hidden in his shoe, urged a crowd of 200 outside his former Finsbury Park mosque to embrace death and the "culture of martyrdom."

Though the British home secretary, David Blunkett, has sought to strip Abu Hamza of his British citizenship and deport him, the legal battle has dragged on for years while Abu Hamza keeps calling down the wrath of God.

Also this week, over Mr. Blunkett's vigorous objection, a 35-year-old Algerian held under emergency laws passed after Sept. 11 was released from Belmarsh Prison. The man, identified only as "G," suffered from severe mental illness, his lawyers told a special immigration appeals panel, which let him out of prison and put him under house arrest.

Mr. Blunkett insisted that that should not be the final judgment on a man already found by one court "to be a threat to life and liberty."

In an interview on the BBC over the weekend, Mr. Blunkett advocated a stronger deportation policy, initially focused on 12 foreign terror suspects held without charge since the Sept. 11 attacks.

Despite tougher antiterrorism laws, the police, prosecutors and intelligence chiefs across Europe say they are struggling to contain the openly seditious speech of Islamic extremists, some of whom, they say, have been inciting young men to suicidal violence since the 1990's.

One chapter in Sheik Omar's lectures these days is "The Psyche of Muslims for Suicide Bombing."

The authorities say that laws to protect religious expression and civil liberties have the result of limiting what they can do to stop hateful speech. In the case of foreigners, they say they are often left to seek deportation, a lengthy and uncertain process subject to legal appeals, when the suspect can keep inciting attacks.

That leaves the authorities to resort to less effective means, such as mouse-trapping Islamic radicals with immigration violations in hopes of making a deportation case stick. "In many countries, the laws are liberal and it's not easy," an official said.

At a mosque in Geneva, an imam recently exhorted his followers to "impose the will of Islam on the godless society of the West."

"It was quite virulent," said a senior official with knowledge of the sermon. "The imam was encouraging his followers to take over the godless society."

While such a sermon may be incitement, recruitment takes a more shadowy course, and is hard to detect, a senior antiterrorism official said. "Believers are appealed to in the mosques, but the real conversations take place in restaurants or cafes or private apartments," the official said.

While some clerics, like Abu Qatada said to be the spiritual counselor of Mohamed Atta, who led the Sept. 11 hijacking team remain in prison in Britain without charge, others like Sheik Omar, leader of a movement called Al Muhajiroun, carry on a robust ideological campaign.

"There is no case against me," Sheik Omar said in an interview. Referring to calls by members of Parliament that he be deported, he added, "but they are Jewish" and "they have been calling for that for years."

Among his ardent followers is Ishtiaq Alamgir, 24, who heads Al Muhajiroun in Luton and calls himself Sayful Islam, the sword of Islam. He says there are about 50 members here but exact numbers are secret.

Most days, he and a handful of his followers run a recruitment stand on Dunstable Road much to the chagrin of the Muslim elders of Luton.

Mainstream Muslims are outraged by the situation, saying the actions of a few are causing their communities to be singled out for surveillance and making the larger population distrustful of them.

Muhammad Sulaiman, a stalwart of the mainstream Central Mosque here, was penniless when he arrived from the Kashmiri frontier of Pakistan in 1956. He raised money to build the Central Mosque here and now leads a campaign to ban Al Muhajiroun radicals from the city's 10 mosques.

"This is show-off business," he says in accented English. "I don't want these kids in my mosque."

Other community leaders look to the government to do something, if only to help prevent the demonization of British Muslims, or "Islamophobia," as some here call it.

"I think these kids are being brainwashed by a few radical clerics," said Akhbar Dad Khan, another elder of the Central Mosque. He wants them prosecuted or deported. "We should be able to control this negativity," he said.

In Slough, Sheik Omar spent much of his time Thursday night regaling his young followers with the erotic delights of paradise sweet kisses and the pleasures of bathing with scores of women while he also preached the virtues of death in Islamic struggle as a ticket to paradise.

He spoke of terrorism as the new norm of cultural conflict, "the fashion of the 21st century," practiced as much by Tony Blair as by Al Qaeda.

"We may be caught up in the target as the people of Manhattan were," he told them.

And he warned Western leaders, "You may kill bin Laden, but the phenomenon, you cannot kill it you cannot destroy it."

"Our Muslim brothers from abroad will come one day and conquer here and then we will live under Islam in dignity," he said.

Patrick E. Tyler reported from Luton, Slough and London and Don Van Natta Jr. from London. Souad Mekhennet contributed reporting from

Praxus
27 Apr 04,, 01:13
What these Muslims don't understand is that if they piss us off enough a lot of Muslims will die.

Perhaps nuking Mecca would be a good start. Then one muslim city every terrorist attack until all Terrorism ceases.

Jay
27 Apr 04,, 04:07
why dont they fucking deport them all to Guantanamo :mad:
Its a tough choice, their population is increasing...every extremist family will have atleast 4-5 kids (coz they dont believe in family planning) so its a population explosion. So the govts need to find and eliminate all the extremist pigs or they'r gonna live in terror for ever.

Blademaster
27 Apr 04,, 04:32
Praxux.

If you do that, India would become your enemy whether we like it or not. Because 150 million Muslims live in India and 99% have nothing to do with terrorism. But if you nuke Mecca, well, you just increase your enemy count by 150 million people. If you think you can nuke Indian muslim areas, think again because we will respond with a massive retaliation including weapons of mass destructions.

Trooth
27 Apr 04,, 21:42
I think its telling that the chatter increased after the Iraqi invasion. Whether it is right or wrong, people are drawing cause and effect together.

However i take these reports with a pinch of salt. I am no more at risk from AQ as i was from the IRA and so on. I could be killed at any moment in a variety of gruesome ways But the level of hysteria is much, much higher. I don't know why it is but everything about our response to this problem is more extreme. Perhaps it is because the enemy does not have anglo-saxon features, or because the place the enemy hides, or gets its money from, is not a traditional ally.

Look at how many people are incarcerated and then released without charge. 600 have been arrested under the 2000 Terrorism Act but the number of convictions stands at two. Then compare with the outcry over the Birmingham six, or the Guildford four.

Jay
28 Apr 04,, 00:56
Trooth,
Did IRA publicly said that they'll kill every possible English men from England and then convert England to Ireland??

Just becoz we cannott convict a group of theives doesnt mean that they are not theives!! Its just they found a way to beat our judicial and democratic system! Imagine if its Saudi Arabia, no questions asked, none can talk about the trial, boom you are executed infront of 1000's of people. I used to be shocked, but now I think pigs ought to be treated as pigs, not as humans.

Confed999
28 Apr 04,, 00:58
If you do that, India would become your enemy whether we like it or not. Because 150 million Muslims live in India and 99% have nothing to do with terrorism. But if you nuke Mecca, well, you just increase your enemy count by 150 million people. If you think you can nuke Indian muslim areas, think again because we will respond with a massive retaliation including weapons of mass destructions.
The US won't nuke a city, except in retaliation. The US stood down the USSR, India's WMD aren't too worrying in comparison.

I am no more at risk from AQ as i was from the IRA and so on.
Are you sure? How many possible IRA are there vs. how many possible AQ? Seems like millions vs. billions to me, and billions of chances is worse than millions of chances. More chances = more risk...

now I think pigs ought to be treated as pigs, not as humans.
Agreed...

Trooth
28 Apr 04,, 01:07
Well. The IRA has planted dozens of bombs all over England. So regardless of their statements they have tried to kill quite a lot of us. I have lived in two of the major "mainland" areas that have been bombed by the IRA (not at the time). Statistically the danger from AQ is no more than the danger from the IRA.

I have met "irish" people who have fervently decried Britain and everything British. Whilst living and working in Britain. Much like the hook handed cleric and his Islamic cohorts.

But for some reason we are in this hyperbole.

Trooth
28 Apr 04,, 01:10
Are you sure? How many possible IRA are there vs. how many possible AQ? Seems like millions vs. billions to me, and billions of chances is worse than millions of chances. More chances = more risk...


Well there may be more of them, but the bomb carrying types are very much in a minority in both groups.

11-M had 7 bombs i think. I seem to remember the IRA set off 26 in one day.

Confed999
28 Apr 04,, 01:17
11-M had 7 bombs i think. I seem to remember the IRA set off 26 in one day.
Did they kill over 3000 in a few hours?

Jay
28 Apr 04,, 01:25
Again IRA was against just England!!

But this is against the whole humanity minus a SET with in ~2 billion people. Killing one becoz he doesnt subscribe to your view is just plain stupid, it has to be condemned outrightly and has to be seriously dealt with! Are you saying that 4 and odd billion people are idiots and dont have the right to live??

Say tomorrow your tenant (for arguement sake lets say he's one of these pigs who rents your home) knocks your door, your kids answer the door, ask him to come in and have some coffee. He then asks about your religion and beliefs.Past history suggests that defintely he'll not be satisfied with their answers, so he VERBALLY threatens your kids that he's gonna kill them.

What are you gonna do? Pacify your kids that it was bad joke or get rough with your neighbhour??

Trooth
28 Apr 04,, 01:27
No, i accept the single biggest terrorist attack on British citizens was 9/11. But statisically it was all still a fraction of a percent of the population. Which means you are on about the same odds. I am not saying there is no risk. I just don't believe the risk has increased at the same rate as the hyperbole and certianly not as the rate of arrests to prosecutions has.

You have to remember that the IRA did fire mortars at Downing Street. OK they were a bit pants, but they did try to assassinate Maggie Thatcher when she was PM , pretty much demolishing the hotel she was in and killing some of her staff.

Trooth
28 Apr 04,, 01:35
Again IRA was against just England!!

But this is against the whole humanity minus a SET with in ~2 billion people. Killing one becoz he doesnt subscribe to your view is just plain stupid, it has to be condemned outrightly and has to be seriously dealt with! Are you saying that 4 and odd billion people are idiots and dont have the right to live??

Say tomorrow your tenant (for arguement sake lets say he's one of these pigs who rents your home) knocks your door, your kids answer the door, ask him to come in and have some coffee. He then asks about your religion and beliefs.Past history suggests that defintely he'll not be satisfied with their answers, so he VERBALLY threatens your kids that he's gonna kill them.

What are you gonna do? Pacify your kids that it was bad joke or get rough with your neighbhour??

Well, they weren't after just England. Scots, Welsh, Irish, Germans, Spaniards and Australians have all died at the hands fo the IRA. And those are just the ones i can remember off the top of my head.

Is your scenario a psyche test or a specific incident you have had? If it is the latter then i would get him arrested straight away. Actually if it is the former i would do the same.

But the murderous types in Islam do not number 2 billion. Not every muslim is out to kill you. I used to work with a muslim who i used to have a right old laugh with and he hardly ever tried to slit my throat.

Confed999
28 Apr 04,, 01:41
Not every muslim is out to kill you. I used to work with a muslim who i used to have a right old laugh with and he hardly ever tried to slit my throat.
If it's a similar, or even much smaller, percentage of Muslims, there are alot more of them.

Trooth
28 Apr 04,, 01:50
Well, we are now arguing statistics. My point is that i am no more at risk on a london bus from an AQ bomb as from an IRA bomb. There are only so many buses, only so many bombs.

The only thing i will concede is that AQ has an eye for the spectacular (the planes) whereas the IRA did not. But there were hijackings before on which people died. I do not think the hi-jack risk is any higher.

But either way, the hyperbole, the arrest rate without prosecution is much, much higher. But it is the same ring of steel that goes around London every so often.

Confed999
28 Apr 04,, 01:53
If more people are killed your chances of being one of them are higher, basic math. Argue it all you want, but just because neither you nor I are afraid doesn't mean the risk isn't greater.

Jay
28 Apr 04,, 01:53
Trooth,
It was just a scenario. So all these noises arrests are something like that. They didnt arrest them bcoz they are muslims, they arrested just a group of people based on credible suspicion.

Also Note that I said a SET with in 2 billion.I didnt say all of the 2 billion muslims,and I cant really quantify the "set". I deducted them from 2 billion coz these 2 billion people have more in common with these pigs than us.


But this is against the whole humanity minus a SET with in ~2 billion people

Trooth
28 Apr 04,, 01:59
Well. The reports don't say "arrested through threatening behvaiour" they say things akin 700 police officers conducted raids in numerous locations at dawn, 26 people were taken into custody and held under the 2000 terrorism act.

That ain't one bloke getting a bit lippy over a cuppa.

The above isn't a quote but its too late for me to go and find an example.

Ironduke
28 Apr 04,, 02:14
But the murderous types in Islam do not number 2 billion.
*scratches head*

Heh, there's just over a billion total Muslims.

Ironduke
28 Apr 04,, 03:51
Personally, I am of the opinion that any of these people who espouse the jihadi ideology anywhere in the Western world ought to be deported, even if they fart crooked or look at somebody crosseyed, without delay to the nearest Muslim country, and be charged for the ticket.

Of course, this will never happen. Not until Lebanon 2.0 rains down like atomic bombs in the suburbs of France or the industrial ghettoes of England.

Lunatock, pun intended with the word "Europeon"?

Confed999
28 Apr 04,, 04:36
*scratches head*

Heh, there's just over a billion total Muslims.
Sorry, that may be my fault, I think I said it in another thread. I was thinking Christians, there are an estimated 1.3 billion Muslims, at least according to Muslims. ;)

ChrisF202
28 Apr 04,, 11:09
Personally, I am of the opinion that any of these people who espouse the jihadi ideology anywhere in the Western world ought to be deported, even if they fart crooked or look at somebody crosseyed, without delay to the nearest Muslim country, and be charged for the ticket.

Of course, this will never happen. Not until Lebanon 2.0 rains down like atomic bombs in the suburbs of France or the industrial ghettoes of England.

Lunatock, pun intended with the word "Europeon"?
I agree with you on this, they need to be deported, send the gendarmerie in tanks to arrest them, I wont feel sorry for them at all. I have a bad feeling that this summer will be a summer of terror.

Lunatock
28 Apr 04,, 15:56
Yes, "Europeon" was intentional.

Jay
28 Apr 04,, 19:47
dunno, so far in US everything looks normal....with out any major terror alerts! but I guess we'll have more security at the main airports and expect long delays, coz in all the POE everyone are supposed to be id'ed (except citizens).

Trooth
28 Apr 04,, 20:11
I didn't have my finger prints taken when i landed at LA, which surprised me. I don't see the point in only doing a certain proportion of the entrants. After all the Shoe Bomber was British and Johnny Jihad was from the US.

Assuming we had the full biometric id on Atta and his cohorts, would the intelligence community have had intel to prevent entry? I guess they would have known if tehy hadn't left the country within their 90 visa (or visa waiver).

Jay
28 Apr 04,, 21:22
they changed the rule...US-VISIT will be applicable to every body with a non-immigrant visa.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/interapp/press_release/press_release_0385.xml

Not sure about preventing any terrorists to enter in to USA, coz there are atleast 6 million people in USA who have either applied for immigration and millions more waiting to apply. BCIS takes atleast 2-4 years to process their application, to check their labor status, security etc. So you dont need new people to come in to threat us. We've got enuff people in already.There are also scores of illegals who do mundane joba from poor countries, tracking them and keeping a tab on them is impossible.

Not to mention that poor second generation muslim immigrants are sucked in to jehadi concepts in EU. The good thing is unlike EU, MOST of the muslims immigrants here in USA are moderate, articulate, educated and hold a decent job. So most prob we wudnt have the EU problem here. But still, the borders and check posts cannot be secured 100%. Either we have to kill the root cause, or will have to live under yellow, blue, green, red terror level all our lives.

If the govts spend 1/10 of the resource they spend on security to eradicate the root cause of all this jehadi terrorism, it will save us from all these nighmares. Or atleast the saner muslims should come forward and should educate the youth and kids about ill wills of jihad...

Ironduke
28 Apr 04,, 22:23
they changed the rule...US-VISIT will be applicable to every body with a non-immigrant visa.
What does that do for the people from 27 countries who do not need a visa to enter the US?

Jay
29 Apr 04,, 01:18
They will be included in the list after Sep 30, 2004! Any one who's not US Citizen should go thro US-VISIT!