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Officer of Engineers
07 Apr 04,, 06:10
I am officially on record as to testifying against the war but supported our people once the war began.

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We bombed the wrong side?

by Lewis MacKenzie

Five years ago, our TV screens were dominated by pictures of Kosovo --Albanian refugees escaping across Kosovo’s borders to the sanctuaries of Macedonia and Albania. Shrill reports indicated that Slobodan Milosevic’s security forces were conducting a campaign of genocide and that at least 100,000 Kosovo-Albanians had been exterminated and buried in mass graves throughout the Serbian province. NATO sprang into action and, in spite of the fact that no member nation of the alliance was threatened, commenced to bomb not only Kosovo but the infrastructure and population of Serbia itself -- without the authorizing UN resolution so revered by Canadian leadership, past and present.

Those of us who warned that the West was being sucked in on the side of an extremist, militant, Kosovo-Albanian independence movement were dismissed as appeasers. The fact that the lead organization spearheading the fight for independence, the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), was universally designated a terrorist organization and known to be receiving support from Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda was conveniently ignored.

The recent dearth of news in the North American media regarding the current increase in violence in Kosovo, compared to the comprehensive coverage in the European press, strongly suggests that we Canadians don’t like to admit it when we are wrong. On the contrary, selected news clips on this side of the ocean continue to reinforce the popular spin that those dastardly Serbs are at it again.

A case in point was the latest crisis that exploded on the 15th of March. The media reported that four Albanian boys had been chased into the River Ibar in Mitrovica by at least two Serbs and a dog. (The dog’s ethnic affiliation was not reported). Three of the boys were drowned, and one escaped to the other side. Immediately, thousands of Albanians mobilized and concentrated in the area of the divided city. Attacks on Serbs took place throughout the province, resulting in an estimated 30 killed and 600 wounded. As well, 30 Serbian Christian Orthodox churches and monasteries were destroyed, over 300 homes burnt to the ground and six Serbian villages cleansed of their occupants; 150 international peacekeepers were injured.

Totally ignored in North America were the numerous statements from impartial sources that there was no incident between the Serbs, the dog and the Albanian boys. NATO Police spokesman Derek Chappell stated on the 16th of March that it was, “definitely not true” that the boys had been chased into the river by Serbs. Chappell went on to say that the surviving boy had told his parents that they had entered the river alone and that three of his friends had been swept away by the current. Admiral Gregory Johnson, the overall NATO commander further stated that the ensuing clashes were “orchestrated and well planned ethnic cleansing” by the Kosovo Albanians. Those Serbs who were forced to leave joined the 200,000 that had been cleansed from the province since NATO’s “humanitarian” bombing in 1999. The ‘“cleansees” have become very effective “cleansers”.

During the same week, a number of individuals posing as Serbs ambushed and killed a UN policeman and his local police partner. During the firefight one of them was wounded, which caused an immediate switch from Serbian to Albanian as he screamed, “I’ve been hit”! The UN pursued the attackers and tracked them to an Albanian-run farm, where they discovered weapons and the wounded Albanian who had died from his wounds. Four Albanians were arrested. Once again, the ambush had been reported in the US, but not the follow-up which clearly indicated yet another orchestrated provocation by the Albanian terrorists.

Kosovo is administered by the United Nations, the very organization that many Canadians have indicated they would like to see take over from the US in Iraq. The fact that the UN cannot order its civilian employees to go or stay anywhere -- they have to volunteer -- combined with recent history that saw the UN abandon Iraq after a single brutal attack on their compound in Baghdad and the reality that Kosovo, under the organization’s administration is a basket case, disqualifies it from consideration for such a role.

Since the NATO/UN intervention in 1999, Kosovo has become the crime capital of Europe. The sex slave trade is flourishing. The province has become an invaluable transit point for drugs en route to Europe and North America. Ironically, the majority of the drugs come from another state “liberated” by the West, Afghanistan. Members of the demobilized, but not eliminated, KLA are intimately involved in organized crime and the government. The UN police arrest a small percentage of those involved in criminal activities and turn them over to a judiciary with a revolving door that responds to bribes and coercion.

The objective of the Albanians is to purge all non-Albanians, including the international communities’ representatives from Kosovo, and ultimately link up with mother Albania, thereby achieving the goal of “Greater Albania”. The campaign started with their attacks on Serbian security forces in the early 90s, and they were successful in turning Milosevic’s heavy-handed response into worldwide sympathy for their cause. There was no genocide as claimed by the West -- the 100,000 allegedly buried in mass graves turned out to be around 2,000, of all ethnic origins, including those killed in combat during the war itself.

The Kosovo-Albanians have played us like a Stradivarius violin. We have subsidized and indirectly supported their violent campaign for an ethnically pure and independent Kosovo. We have never blamed them for being the perpetrators of the violence in the early 90s, and we continue to portray them as the designated victim today, in spite of evidence to the contrary. When they achieve independence with the help of our tax dollars combined with those of bin Laden and al-Qaeda, just consider the message of encouragement that sends to other terrorist-supported independence movements around the world.

Funny how we just keep digging the hole deeper!



This article appears here with the kind permission of Maj-Gen Lewis MacKenzie (Ret'd). It also appears in the 6 March 2004 issue of the National Post.

Copyright ©2004 Lewis W. MacKenzie

Bill
07 Apr 04,, 08:55
Whoops, eh Colonel?

Lunatock
07 Apr 04,, 16:16
Is that image that appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, those in the Serb detention camp also a fake?

One interesting part of Aukai Collins book says that after the Serbs were sent packing, four of the KLA commanders, including an Afghan war veteran, were assasinated, presumably by American Government Agents.

Officer of Engineers
07 Apr 04,, 18:03
Originally posted by Lunatock
Is that image that appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, those in the Serb detention camp also a fake?

Completely, it was a refugee camp in Croat territory and the barb wire was there already to protect the livestock.


Originally posted by Lunatock
One interesting part of Aukai Collins book says that after the Serbs were sent packing, four of the KLA commanders, including an Afghan war veteran, were assasinated, presumably by American Government Agents.

The only peace in the area is enforced by KFOR.

Lunatock
07 Apr 04,, 19:09
You have to forgive me for being a civilian puke...whats KFOR?

Officer of Engineers
07 Apr 04,, 21:09
Kosovo FORce.

Bill
07 Apr 04,, 23:43
KFOR: Kan't wait to get the FUCK Outta this Rotten shithole. ;)

Confed999
08 Apr 04,, 00:50
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
Funny how we just keep digging the hole deeper!
Does he have any ideas for filling it back in?

Praxus
08 Apr 04,, 01:05
500 well place thermal nuclear defices, lol.

Officer of Engineers
08 Apr 04,, 04:00
Originally posted by Confed999
Does he have any ideas for filling it back in?

One:

Carve up Kosovo and Bosnia into Greateer Serbia, Croatia, and Albania and enforce the borders through force no matter what other territory everybody wants. (Historically, there is no Bosnia nor Kosovo)

Confed999
08 Apr 04,, 04:55
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
One:

Carve up Kosovo and Bosnia into Greateer Serbia, Croatia, and Albania and enforce the borders through force no matter what other territory everybody wants. (Historically, there is no Bosnia nor Kosovo)
If they can't live together, live apart... Yep, seems reasonable to me. It would require international border guards stronger than local armies indefinately, so nothing would change there. I can't see someone making them do it though... No matter how hard I try.

Officer of Engineers
08 Apr 04,, 15:59
A couple of problems. We would be rewarding the KLA for terrorism (well, what the hell did anyone think we were doing when we went to war?) and for Kosovo to be economic and homogenious viable, Southern Serbia would have to be partitioned also - not a chance in hell.

Our solution is that this is all you're going to get/keep. Live with it.

ChrisF202
08 Apr 04,, 17:37
Keep each ethic group in different nations, although like Confed said, we would have to have alot of troops there to keep the peace. The Balkans has been a "power keg" since medival times, its been going on forever, and chances are it will go on forever until they get tired of killing each other over ones ethnicity, and sadly, that dont look like it will happen anytime soon.

Bill
09 Apr 04,, 05:37
We could always just stand back in amusement while they kill eachother and just deal with the eventual winner...

Officer of Engineers
09 Apr 04,, 06:21
Originally posted by M21Sniper
We could always just stand back in amusement while they kill eachother and just deal with the eventual winner...

The Germans, Russians, Turks, Greeks, as well as the locals will pick sides.

Bill
09 Apr 04,, 09:23
Only because they're stupid.

When two groups are intent on killing each other i say encircle the border and let em have at it until they're through.

Confed999
10 Apr 04,, 03:47
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
Our solution is that this is all you're going to get/keep. Live with it.
How, and who, to get it done?

Bill
14 Apr 04,, 21:47
Colonel, care to elaborate on which parts of the campaign were worthy, and what was political crap?

Further, could you elaborate on the faked mass graves?

I'm interested to get your personal opinions in a bit more depth.

Thanx Sir.

Officer of Engineers
14 Apr 04,, 23:52
Originally posted by M21Sniper
Colonel, care to elaborate on which parts of the campaign were worthy, and what was political crap?

There's nothing I like about OAF upto and including the Allied performance where British and American Generals did not get along and have policy fights and no one can agree upon the proper usage of forces (fighting the war at 15,000 feet).

It took the British/Canadians to finally start preparing for a ground war that never took part. However, when it was time to enter Kosovo, the woeful lack of prep work was evident when French paratroopers was trapped by minefields after being helo inserted. They were not relieved for three days.

No one took advantage of the Russians did. If they could drive all the way to Pristina Airport, why didn't anyone follow and use the same road?

Generals Wesley Clarke and Sir Michael Jackson did not need to air their dirty laundry in public.

The decline of the USArmy was most evident with TK Hawk's disaster.


Originally posted by M21Sniper
Further, could you elaborate on the faked mass graves?

There were no mass graves in Kosovo. The only thing the politicians used to justify their actions was the "massacre" of 43 "civilians" who were actually combat deaths whose bodies were collected and deposited later at the site.

About the only mass graves actually discovered was in Bosnia around Srebenica after that UN Protected Enclave fell.

ChrisF202
15 Apr 04,, 00:45
Is it true that many of the targets we hit in Kosovo were just dummy tanks, artillery peices, etc?

Officer of Engineers
15 Apr 04,, 03:57
No,

However, we did not hit what we wanted ti hit. There were several AAR eval criteria. Gen Clarke's (too date, it is his and his alone) was weapons release and not targets hit. He got an eval of 80% successs. The Canadians having flown 10% of the mission with 4% of the assets decree only 5% success (actually measuring targets hit).

The end result is that there were only 12 pieces destroyed and four bridges blown. The rest was pure bullshit from a military standpoint which is why I have no problem standing toe-to-toe with Gen Clarke and his bullshit.

Not that you will ever know from his reporting.

eMGee
29 Jun 04,, 00:36
I'm glad more people see that the Kosovo War was based on lies and that it was a complete farce.

Kosovo, infact, used to be the pride of Serbia. The province they managed to keep out of Turkish hands! But, ironically (with the help of NATO), they eventually lost it from the (ethnic-)Turks, AKA Albanians/Bosniaks.

I have great respect and sympathy for the Serb people. For centuries a brave and courage people that have always defended their culture and language at any cost.

Fireworxx
29 Jun 04,, 22:22
I'm glad more people see that the Kosovo War was based on lies and that it was a complete farce.

Kosovo, infact, used to be the pride of Serbia. The province they managed to keep out of Turkish hands! But, ironically (with the help of NATO), they eventually lost it from the (ethnic-)Turks, AKA Albanians/Bosniaks.

I have great respect and sympathy for the Serb people. For centuries a brave and courage people that have always defended their culture and language at any cost.


now you listen here... I was posted in kosovo for over 8 months.... I have seen your brave and couragous friends in action... and I was not amused!
The serbs are the animals in the slavic part of europe...............
After having led wars with every bloody country next to them in the last 400 years they are the sole reason why there is no united jugoslavia anymore. And thats not a joke...


I havent had so many goddamn "peacemaking" missions anywhere else......... and they werent even at war anymore! nono my friend... I would gladly turn serbia into "burnt earth". Oh and by the way.. they have never protected their language and culture... theyve been running to the Russians for decades. Parts of Serbia dont even speak anything but Russian anymore.


I don't know what stuff they showed you in the tvs but its all far from true. The truth is that the serbs are war mongering bastards who have war for the fun of it.

Officer of Engineers
29 Jun 04,, 22:34
There are no good guys in Yugoslavia. Everybody is an asshole. I was there with UNPROFOR and each and everyone of them would gladly slit your throat. I agree with you that the Serbs were not the good guys (they threw women and children out into the cold) but they were not alone in their brutality.

BTW, the Croats also share the blame for not having a Yugoslavia anymore. What they did in Krajina was as brutal anything in that war.

Fireworxx
29 Jun 04,, 22:44
The 14.000 civilian slaughter action? yeah... that wasnt the nicest thing theyve done... The real problem down there was that the jugoslavian army was allways stationed in parts of serbia... so the kroatians didnt really have much of a chance... which I suppose is the reason for such slaughter. I dunno... it was heavy down there thats for sure.

(I've gotta be nice to the kroatians I have a lovely holiday villa in a lonely bay down in Trogir)

Ironduke
29 Jun 04,, 22:55
Well, I don't think it was quite 400 years. Serbia was ruled by the Ottoman Empire from 1369-1878, 509 years to be exact. Today's Bosniaks or Bosnian Muslims or whatever you call them are the descendants of Serbs and possibly Croats who converted to Islam after the Ottoman conquest. They ruled over Serbia for the Ottoman sultan.

Prior to World War II there wasn't the animosity that we see today. I know for a fact that there was at least one Bosnian Muslim in the group that was sent out to assassinate Archduke Ferdinand, and there was a strong irredentist sentiment among Bosnian Muslims to seperate from the Austro-Hungarian Empire and join with Serbia.

During WWII, the Croats and Bosnian Muslims aligned themselves with the Nazis, and the Bosnian Muslims even raised two SS divisions. Hitler created a Greater Croatia comprised of modern-day Croatia, Bosnia, and a part of Serbia, leaving a small Serbian rump state under direct German administration.

http://cla.calpoly.edu/~lcall/fascist_europe.jpg

I believe it was Croat-Bosniak actions against the Serbs that have led to today's problems.

Fireworxx
29 Jun 04,, 23:07
my personal opinion is that those actions were nothing but revenge for the years of simple border war that they have been leading... sure there was nothing like that before 1942 but there have allways been attacks of serbs on sorrounding nations which lead to pillaging and raping partys by serbs.

Ironduke
29 Jun 04,, 23:14
my personal opinion is that those actions were nothing but revenge for the years of simple border war that they have been leading... sure there was nothing like that before 1942 but there have allways been attacks of serbs on sorrounding nations which lead to pillaging and raping partys by serbs.
What time period are you referring to? The Balkan Wars of the early 19th century? Or were the Serbs running amok in southeastern Europe during the five centuries they spent as a subjugated people under the Ottomans and their proxies, the Bosnian Muslim pashas?

Fireworxx
29 Jun 04,, 23:26
What time period are you referring to? The Balkan Wars of the early 19th century? Or were the Serbs running amok in southeastern Europe during the five centuries they spent as a subjugated people under the Ottomans and their proxies, the Bosnian Muslim pashas?


as far as I know they have been warring for over 700 years...

Ironduke
29 Jun 04,, 23:55
as far as I know they have been warring for over 700 years...
For 500 years they were firmly under the control of the Ottoman Empire. 1389-1878.

Aryan
05 Jul 04,, 20:12
Lies/Bullshit.

http://flagspot.net/images/c/cs^uck.gif

Ironduke
05 Jul 04,, 20:23
Lies/Bullshit.
What is?

Aryan
05 Jul 04,, 20:30
What is?

The article Officer of engineers posted.

Ironduke
05 Jul 04,, 20:53
The article Officer of engineers posted.
I don't think so. The Kosovo Liberation Army has never been more than a bunch of filthy terrorists.

Aryan
05 Jul 04,, 22:39
I don't think so. The Kosovo Liberation Army has never been more than a bunch of filthy terrorists.

I'm not saying they are angels, but I'd support them any day of the week over that filthy slavic army.

Aryan
05 Jul 04,, 23:11
I did a quick google search for the author of this article, and this is what I came up with:


Cdn. Gen. Lewis MacKenzie raped 4 Bosnian women
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COPYRIGHT PACIFIC NEWS SERVICE
450 Mission Street, Room 506
San Francisco, CA 94105
415-243-4364

ANSWERS NEEDED TO CHARGES OF UN MISCONDUCT IN BOSNIA


EDITOR'S NOTE:

For half a year charges of sexual misconduct filed by a Sarajevo prosecutor against a high UN official have been circulating widely in Arab, European and Canadian media, and in UN and human rights circles in New York. While the official named denied the charges, to date there has been no formal acknowledgement let alone inquiry into them, raising troubling questions for some about who polices the peacekeepers. PNS associate editor Dennis Bernstein is an award-winning investigative reporter. Bernstein's research was funded in part by the Washington, D.C. based Fund for Investigative Journalism.

BY DENNIS BERNSTEIN, PACIFIC NEWS SERVICE

Last November the chief Bosnian military prosecutor in Sarajevo charged a high UN official with sexual misconduct against civilians while on duty in Bosnia. The prosecutor publicly demanded that the Bosnian president press the United Nations to remove the official's diplomatic immunity.

Although reports of the alleged war crimes have appeared in the Arab, European and Canadian press, have been circulating in UN circles and even surfaced in a briefing for U.S. Congressional aides by a human rights group, there has as yet been no formal response from the UN. While the official has denied the charges, those attempting to investigate them -- journalists, human rights advocates, foreign policy
analysts, and at least one U.S. legislator, not to mention Bosnian officials and Sarajevans themselves -- believe they raise troubling questions about the overall accountability of the UN: just who is policing the peacekeepers?

Some months after he unexpectedly stepped down from his assignment last August, General Lewis MacKenzie, Canadian head of the UN peacekeeping force in Bosnia Herzegovina, was charged in a bill of indictment by chief military prosecutor Mustafa Bisic with sexually molesting four Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) women held by Serbian forces in a prison camp in a Sarajevo suburb.

In a letter to the Bosnian president dated Dec. 3, 1992, Bisic cited the eyewitness testimony of a Serbian guard who had worked at the camp, known as Kod Sonje. The guard claimed he saw MacKenzie and several escorts arrive in a military transport vehicle with the UN insignia. The eyewitness claimed guards were then ordered to release four Bosniak women prisoners to MacKenzie. According to the prosecutor's complaint, the women were later murdered by camp guards under orders to "erase evidence" of this "unusual gift."

The prosecutor's charges, aired over Sarajevo television, were denounced by MacKenzie in several interviews with European and Canadian media as a propaganda tactic by one side in the three-sided
civil war to gain international sympathy. "I can understand why they (Bosnian officials) would do something like that," the former UN peacekeeper told the Vancouver Sun in an interview published Feb. 13. "If I had been in their position and found that the peace-keeping force was not what I wanted, I can envision my devious mind working out a story to discredit them."

Nevertheless, in February new information about the possible existence of a videotape placing MacKenzie at the Kod Sonje camp helped refocus attention to the charges. In an interview with Pacific News Service, U.S. Congresswoman Louise M. Slaughter (D-NY) says she is "very concerned" about the charges and has informed U.S. ambassador to the UN Madeline Albright that her office "is trying to ferret them out as best we can."

Slaughter learned about the videotape from Safeta Ovcina, a Bosnian nurse who testified at a special briefing conducted by Helsinki Watch for Congressional staffers. The briefing was held February 23 amid growing concern in the West over media accounts of mass rapes of Bosniak women by Serbian soldiers.

Ovcina, who spent ten months tending war victims at a frontline hospital before fleeing Sarajevo for the United States, testified she had been shown the videotape by her neighbors whom she described as members of the Bosnian military.

"I looked at the tape and saw General MacKenzie, whom we always saw on TV news, with Serb chetniks. There were three or four girls on both sides of him...MacKenzie was hugging them."

In a telephone interview with Pacific News Service at her home in St. Louis, Ovcina says she recognized some of the young women as formerly involved in a hair cutting business. "They didn't laugh, they
didn't cry, they just sat there...The feeling I had is that they were surrounded by a bunch of drunken people, and they were very unhappy," she recalled.

Ovcina says her neighbors told her the women were later killed and buried in a grave on the outskirts of Sarajevo. In her testimony at the Helsinki Watch briefing, she also described witnessing other abuses and indiscretions by UN personnel, including the selling of protection, food, cigarettes.

Bosnian officials in the United States interviewed by Pacific News Service say they do not know the whereabouts of the videotape nor do they have any verification that it exists. Although the allegations are now widely accepted as truth in Sarajevo, according to Bosnian Ambassador to the UN Muhamed Sacirbey, at this point "there is no proof to justify them." Interviewed by phone from New York, Sacirbey
said his government had not formally challenged General MacKenzie's diplomatic immunity at the UN.

Another eyewitness to the alleged Kod Sonje incident is Borislav Herak, a Serbian soldier captured by Bosnian forces in early November and now awaiting execution for war crimes. Herak was interviewed on film by award winning Bosnian film maker and TV producer Ademir Kenovic several days after his arrest.

According to a transcript of the interview provided by Kenovic, Herak said he was at the camp when MacKenzie arrived in a white UN vehicle and met with the camp warden Miro Vukovic. He was then taken to a room "for big shots" where he was served whiskey and food.

Later, Herak said he saw MacKenzie and several other UN soldiers "taking four or five girls in this vehicle to have fun." Asked if he were certain it was General MacKenzie, Herak replied, "Yes, I am sure. I saw him on television."

To date, General MacKenzie has not been questioned by U.S. media about the charges and repeated phone calls to him by Pacific News Service in Washington DC were not returned.

Congresswoman Slaughter says while she doesn't want to spread "what could be a smear campaign," she considers the allegations serious enough to warrant investigation. If proven true, they could
undermine the UN's entire peacekeeping mandate. "But I don't know who is authorized to handle such an investigation," she added. Slaughter was especially troubled to learn that twice when he visited Washington last May, General MacKenzie was represented by the public relations firm of Craig Shirley and Associates which is closely identified with the Serbian government. The firm also represents Serb-Net Inc., a Chicago-based association of Serbian American organizations which a spokesperson says "works to counter the negative press images about Serbia."
(06041993) **** END **** COPYRIGHT PNS

eMGee
05 Jul 04,, 23:18
I'm not saying they are angels, but I'd support them any day of the week over that filthy slavic army.

I'd say go for it, I wouldn't expect anything else from your kind.

Then we'll probably see you soon enough on a site like this: http://www.armyinkashmir.org/militant_phots.html :biggrin:

Officer of Engineers
05 Jul 04,, 23:59
Neither General MacKenzie nor I will answer such idiotic charges. I've served with him under UNPROFOR and the charges for every officer, including Indian General Nambiar, range from rape to running a brothel. I wished!

General MacKenzie was my Commanding Officer in Sarajevo and the charges were ludicrous beyond extreme, especially when the allegations were directly in the time in which every officer was in direct combat.

Neither UNPROFOR nor the Canadian Forces found any basis for these trumped up charges and neither organization is about to give credit to this lunacy.

Confed999
06 Jul 04,, 00:16
Neither side should have been supported, it was all bad guys.

Officer of Engineers
06 Jul 04,, 05:09
The reason why the Muslims hated UNPROFOR and in particular, MGen MacKenzie, is because we refused to fight their war for them. MGen MacKenzie was only interested in keeping Sarajevo Airport openned and our battle groups was poised just to protect the airport. We didn't go out and challenge the Serbs and we refused to give sanctuary to the Muslims who hit the Serbs and then running to us for protection.

We go out and rescue Muslim women and children from sniper fire while the men just stood back and smoked without giving one helping hand. And afterwards, they criticize us for leaving the dead behind and bitched loudly to cameras that we didn't go after the snipers after we drove them off.

MGen MacKenzie was NEVER alone. That was against the Queen's Rules, as was sex in theatre. CF JAG was satisfied to this day that MGen MacKenize never participated in any criminal acts whatsoever. That is enough for us ... unless someone wants to accuse our Due Process is corrupt.

And for those of us who knows the General personally, I've met Mrs. MacKenzie and that is enough for us who knows the General.

Anyone wanting to join Al Qeida or its allies, fine by me. He can die just as fast.

Funny how official Bosnian denials is not enough for the consiperacy theorists.

I detest this attack on a very honourable and a very brave man. He personally lead CANBAT into Sarajevo and held the airport with nothing more than his HQ Staff and personal side arms. He was not relieved for more than 10 hours before the Canadian Battle Group broke through.

eMGee
06 Jul 04,, 08:18
Neither side should have been supported, it was all bad guys.

Always trying to talk America out of it? Can't you just admit America fucked up!?

Don't get me wrong, I like America, and I'm not going to take Americans responsible for the action of dumb-ass politicians (such as Bill Clinton).

Aryan
06 Jul 04,, 19:49
Always trying to talk America out of it? Can't you just admit America fucked up!?

Don't get me wrong, I like America, and I'm not going to take Americans responsible for the action of dumb-ass politicians (such as Bill Clinton).

Nothing wrong with the liberation of Kosovo, the entire of europe, and America supported it. Besides, it was better than filling up our countries with Kosovan asylum seekers.

eMGee
06 Jul 04,, 20:43
Nothing wrong with the liberation of Kosovo, the entire of europe, and America supported it. Besides, it was better than filling up our countries with Kosovan asylum seekers.

They still came here, lol!!

P.S.: It's Kosovar, not Kosovan.

Officer of Engineers
06 Jul 04,, 22:14
Now, look who's lying. We did not liberate Kosovo. It is still Serbian territory.

eMGee
06 Jul 04,, 22:19
Now, look who's lying. We did not liberate Kosovo. It is still Serbian territory.

Who told you that, Clinton?

Officer of Engineers
06 Jul 04,, 23:18
Who told you that, Clinton?

The Terms of the Surrender!

Aryan
06 Jul 04,, 23:32
Now, look who's lying. We did not liberate Kosovo. It is still Serbian territory.
On paper perhaps, but the reality is the Serbian government no longer in control of Kosovo, the Kosovans have virtual autonomy.


The reason why the Muslims hated UNPROFOR and in particular, MGen MacKenzie, is because we refused to fight their war for them. MGen MacKenzie was only interested in keeping Sarajevo Airport openned and our battle groups was poised just to protect the airport. We didn't go out and challenge the Serbs and we refused to give sanctuary to the Muslims who hit the Serbs and then running to us for protection.

You actually mean you did some fighting? I was just going through the BBC run down of events that lead to the Srebrenica massacre, and if I were Bosnian, I think I'd hate the so-called peace force.


6-8 July 1995
Bosnian Serb forces had laid siege to the Srebrenica enclave, where tens of thousands of civilians had taken refuge from earlier Serb offensives in north-eastern Bosnia. They were under the protection of about 600 lightly armed Dutch infantry forces. Fuel was running out and no fresh food had been brought into the enclave since May.
Serb forces began shelling Srebrenica. Bosnian Muslim fighters in the town asked for the return of weapons they had surrendered to the peacekeepers but their request was refused. The Dutch commander called UN Headquarters in Sarajevo asking for "close air support" after shells and rockets landed close to refugee centres and observation posts manned by peacekeepers.

9 July 1995
The Bosnian Serbs stepped up their shelling and thousands of refugees fled to the town from southern camps ahead of advancing Serbs, who attacked Dutch observation posts, taking about 30 soldiers hostage.

One peacekeeper was fatally wounded when Bosnian Muslims fired on retreating Dutch troops.

10 July 1995
Dutch Commander Colonel Karremans filed a request for UN air support after the Bosnian Serbs shelled Dutch positions. UN Commander General Janvier initially refused, but agreed after another request from the colonel. Serb attacks stopped before the planes arrived and strikes were postponed.

Some 4,000 refugees were in the town by the evening and there was panic on the streets. Large crowds were gathered around the Dutch positions.

The Dutch commander told town leaders that Nato planes would launch massive air attacks against the Serbs if they had not withdrawn from the safe area by 0600 the following morning.

11 July 1995

The Serb forces did not withdraw, but at 0900 Colonel Karremans received word from Sarajevo that his request for close air support had been submitted on the wrong form. At 1030, the re-submitted request reached General Janvier, but Nato planes had to return to base in Italy to refuel after being airborne since 0600.
UN air power was unable to save the safe area
By midday, more than 20,000 refugees - mostly women, children and the infirm - fled to the main Dutch base at Potocari.

At 1430, two Dutch F-16 Fighters dropped two bombs on Serb positions surrounding Srebrenica. The Serbs responded with a threat to kill their Dutch hostages and shell refugees, causing the suspension of further strikes.

The Bosnian Serb commander Ratko Mladic entered Srebrenica two hours later, accompanied by Serb camera crews. In the evening, General Mladic summoned Colonel Karremans to a meeting at which he delivered an ultimatum that the Muslims must hand over their weapons to guarantee their lives.

12 July 1995
Buses arrived to take women and children to Muslim territory, while the Serbs begin separating out all men from age 12 to 77 for "interrogation for suspected war crimes".
It is estimated that 23,000 women and children were deported in the next 30 hours. Hundreds of men were held in trucks and warehouses.

About 15,000 Bosnian Muslim fighters had attempted to escape from Srebrenica overnight and were shelled as they fled through the mountains.

13 July 1995
The first killings of unarmed Muslims took place in a warehouse in the nearby village of Kravica.

Peacekeepers handed over about 5,000 Muslims who had been sheltering at the Dutch base at Potocari. In return, the Bosnian Serbs released 14 Dutch peacekeepers who had been held at the Nova Kasaba base.

16 July 1995
Early reports of massacres emerged as the first survivors of the long march from Srebrenica began to arrive in Muslim-held territory.

Following negotiations between the UN and the Bosnian Serbs, the Dutch were at last permitted to leave Srebrenica, leaving behind weapons, food and medical supplies.

In the five days after Bosnian Serb forces overran Srebrenica, more than 7,000 Muslim men are thought to have been killed.


And you have the cheek to say America and Britain messed up the Kosovo operation.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/675945.stm


MGen MacKenzie was NEVER alone. That was against the Queen's Rules, as was sex in theatre. CF JAG was satisfied to this day that MGen MacKenize never participated in any criminal acts whatsoever. That is enough for us ... unless someone wants to accuse our Due Process is corrupt.

Thats bullshit. You obviously are trying to cover for him, how can you be sure he was never alone? Unless you can claim to have spent every hour of the time you were posted with him I'd call your claim dubious.


And for those of us who knows the General personally, I've met Mrs. MacKenzie and that is enough for us who knows the General.

There was a gentleman who the community around here knew pretty well. He was happily married. Guess what, he turned out to be a nonce. The I know he loved his wife dearly isn't working for me.


Anyone wanting to join Al Qeida or its allies, fine by me. He can die just as fast.

Don't talk more crap. Bosnians are secular muslims, not islamists. My Bosnian friends eat pork and drink. The same goes for Kosovans.


I detest this attack on a very honourable and a very brave man. He personally lead CANBAT into Sarajevo and held the airport with nothing more than his HQ Staff and personal side arms. He was not relieved for more than 10 hours before the Canadian Battle Group broke through.

Just one question, what charges were laid against you?

Officer of Engineers
07 Jul 04,, 01:43
No, YOUR claims are dubious.

There is ABSOLUTELY no evidence that can stand up to a court of law that would convict General MacKenzie nor anyone on his staff. I really don't give a damn what you think. You weren't there. I was. I have personal experience there. You don't.

I can come up with written documentation as to where the General was at ALL times. You are basing everything upon lies.

Confed999
07 Jul 04,, 01:57
Always trying to talk America out of it? Can't you just admit America fucked up!?
What are you talking about? Does my post make it look like I'm covering for a country? I never asked my country to make deals with bad guys, I ask them not too. All I've said is both sides are bad, if you care to prove me wrong try it. If you read my posts you'll know I am not a nationalist, but I actually think you're just looking for things to attack me on.

So what is your problem lately? It's that Bush said something about Turkey and the EU and you're mad because we all told you it's silly to worry about because we have no power in the EU. In fact I bet Bush's approval made it less likely they would be allowed in.

No, YOUR claims are dubious.
And it is the same stuff that people in their positions are charged with everytime they are in theater, especially when dealing with humanity at it's worst.

Ironduke
07 Jul 04,, 03:06
Don't talk more crap. Bosnians are secular muslims, not islamists. My Bosnian friends eat pork and drink. The same goes for Kosovans.
Al-Qaeda doesn't care if Bosnians or Kosovars eat pork or drink. They will help any side that is Muslim, however nominal, they know that the seeds they plant will bear fruit.

Indeed, Kosovars eat pork and drink, heck, they even traffick eastern European sex slaves, both women and children, opium and heroin, other illicit drugs, and all types of arms.