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View Full Version : Is Papacy a current or possible threat for secularism and international peace?



AlpErTunga
30 Sep 06,, 13:12
As we know the Pope doesn't have only religional title, he has also political titles. So don't you think that Papacy is not suitable for modern Europe and secular principles?

dalem
30 Sep 06,, 18:59
Turkey!

-dale

Srirangan
30 Sep 06,, 19:19
As we know the Pope doesn't have only religional title, he has also political titles. So don't you think that Papacy is not suitable for modern Europe and secular principles?
It's like being stuck in a den full of hungry lions and then worrying about a mosquito bite. Extremist Islam is the threat to secularism and civil society. Christianity reformed and the West has seen a seperation of state and religion. What about those nutjob suicide fidayeen bombers?

Edgeplay_cgo
01 Oct 06,, 00:28
The political power of The Pope is greatly over rated, mainly by religious nutjobs with an agenda. In Europe and the US, he is cheerfully ignored by almost everyone, including Roman Catholics, whenever it suits them.

And in modern times, he has never advocated wiping out a people, blowing oneself up in a crowded market, or cutting off the heads of unbelievers.

leib10
01 Oct 06,, 02:05
No. He's not a threat to peace for merely stating facts about Muslims. The radical Muslims are, however, due to their wonderful way of handling criticism, namely, murdering all those who oppose their sentiments.

Kansas Bear
01 Oct 06,, 18:05
Is Papacy a current or possible threat for secularism and international peace?


Compared to OBL? Hezbollah? Hamas? PLO? .........

Don't these have more power/influence? Haven't these caused international problems before??

Ray
02 Oct 06,, 04:25
No. He's not a threat to peace for merely stating facts about Muslims. The radical Muslims are, however, due to their wonderful way of handling criticism, namely, murdering all those who oppose their sentiments.

Don't you like these radicals?

They are so charmingly violent.

What's a few heads rolled here and there in fundamentalist Islam?

It's all in a day's work! :rolleyes:

leib10
02 Oct 06,, 04:42
Nothing out of the ordinary, you know. Hell, they might even torture a few people! What fun! Then they'll parade the bodies through the streets! What better way to teach those tricky nonbelievers a lesson! :rolleyes:

gilgamesh
02 Oct 06,, 04:43
An average European feels as attached to the Pope as Mr Bean is to the Archbishop in Johnny English.

Srirangan
02 Oct 06,, 04:45
An average European feels as attached to the Pope as Mr Bean is to the Archbishop in Johnny English.
Maybe.. But when it becomes Christianity v/s Islam, you'll see them all rally back.. Islam is a threat and they know it, thanks to all the immigration!

gilgamesh
02 Oct 06,, 04:49
Yes, but that is more of a political expression than a religious one.

AlpErTunga
02 Oct 06,, 14:59
Somepeople responsed my post with names of "Hezbollah, Hamas.. etc.". These people shouldn't have understood my ideas about these terrorist organisations. So these responses are not responses really.

Then; I am not making a comparison between Pope and these radical groups. Pope has only one equal religional title (or colleague- I don't know exact word) in Islamic literature and this title is "caliph" and the power who abolished that title is my country, Turkiye.

People ,who sent these responses to my post, don't know even T of Turkiye and her enlightenment-independence strugle.

So that, I want to clear my idea;

The moral of Enlightenment Age and Renaisance dissappeared and some powers created -or trying to create- a huge battle field which covers all world. So maybe this power can perform a global pain(terrorism).And this pain force people and states to give up their independence. And then this power can announce her utter global victory.

I think all religional figures on politics are the most dangerous and foolish things of clash of civilizations crap. And pope is one of them. This old man may create a global problem with only a foolish tale as he has done nowadays.

Kansas Bear
03 Oct 06,, 07:42
Somepeople responsed my post with names of "Hezbollah, Hamas.. etc.". These people shouldn't have understood my ideas about these terrorist organisations. So these responses are not responses really.

Neither are ethnocentric rants about turkey.

lemontree
03 Oct 06,, 09:01
Then; I am not making a comparison between Pope and these radical groups. Pope has only one equal religional title (or colleague- I don't know exact word) in Islamic literature and this title is "caliph" and the power who abolished that title is my country, Turkiye.
Tell us how does expressing ones opinion on historical events, like the Pope did, effect world peace?
Incontrast, Presidents like Ahmadinajad of Iran create more disturbances by advocating the destruction of a neighbouring country and is actively seeking nuclear weapons. That is what creats problems, and not when a religious head is debating religion.

People ,who sent these responses to my post, don't know even T of Turkiye and her enlightenment-independence strugle.
Please educate us then. We only know about the Armenian genocides and the defeat of the Ottoman empire in post WWI.

I think all religional figures on politics are the most dangerous and foolish things of clash of civilizations crap. And pope is one of them. This old man may create a global problem with only a foolish tale as he has done nowadays.
That was no foolish tale, but historical events that were being discussed. It is radicalized response to the Pope's opinions that is of concern. It showed insecurity and lack of faith amongst the so called "believers".

Edgeplay_cgo
04 Oct 06,, 02:01
Pope has only one equal religional title (or colleague- I don't know exact word) in Islamic literature and this title is "caliph" and the power who abolished that title is my country, Turkiye.

Actually, he has several rough equals, but we're comparing apples, oranges, and potatos. The Patriach of the Eastern Orthodox Church is a strict equal, since the Church split into two parts. Each claims to be the One True Church established by Christ. The Archbishop of Canterberry, being the head of a large and influentual national church, is a rough equal of The Pope. The Egyptian Copts have a Pope, Shenoudia III, IIRC. The various Protestant denominations don't believe in Popes, so they aren't part of the club. ;) I suppose the Dali Lhama is a rough equal of The Pope. I don't know about the Hindu Religion. I don't think Buddhists believe in Popes.

The Caliph doesn't count, if only because you lot turned him out of a job.

ArmchairGeneral
04 Oct 06,, 09:27
Of course he's a threat to the world. Didn't you guys know? He controls the Pentagon, and the World Trade Organization, and Illegal Immigrants, and the Swiss Banks, and the INS, and pretty much everything else. And what's more, that Benedict fellow ain't even the real Pope! There's this dude called the "Black Pope" who controls everything from the shadows. I don't know why this is bad, but it is. Also, the Inquisition is ongoing, we just don't notice it anymore. Or something like that.

gilgamesh
04 Oct 06,, 14:43
Of course he's a threat to the world. Didn't you guys know? He controls the Pentagon, and the World Trade Organization, and Illegal Immigrants, and the Swiss Banks, and the INS, and pretty much everything else. And what's more, that Benedict fellow ain't even the real Pope! There's this dude called the "Black Pope" who controls everything from the shadows. I don't know why this is bad, but it is. Also, the Inquisition is ongoing, we just don't notice it anymore. Or something like that.

Once upon a time they could do all that. :biggrin:

Edgeplay_cgo
05 Oct 06,, 03:25
Also, the Inquisition is ongoing

I didn't expect the Spanish Inquistion!

gunnut
12 Oct 06,, 00:22
As we know the Pope doesn't have only religional title, he has also political titles. So don't you think that Papacy is not suitable for modern Europe and secular principles?

And what has he done to undermine the modern Europe's secular principles?

gunnut
12 Oct 06,, 00:23
I didn't expect the Spanish Inquistion!

The Inquisition, what a show!
The Inquisition, here we go!

Wraith601
12 Oct 06,, 06:56
Of course he's a threat to the world. Didn't you guys know? He controls the Pentagon, and the World Trade Organization, and Illegal Immigrants, and the Swiss Banks, and the INS, and pretty much everything else. And what's more, that Benedict fellow ain't even the real Pope! There's this dude called the "Black Pope" who controls everything from the shadows. I don't know why this is bad, but it is. Also, the Inquisition is ongoing, we just don't notice it anymore. Or something like that.

I think you confused the Pope with the Elders of Zion and the rest of Jewish-Neocon-Illuminati Pact. :biggrin:

zraver
24 Oct 06,, 01:27
Then; I am not making a comparison between Pope and these radical groups. Pope has only one equal religional title (or colleague- I don't know exact word) in Islamic literature and this title is "caliph" and the power who abolished that title is my country, Turkiye.

People ,who sent these responses to my post, don't know even T of Turkiye and her enlightenment-independence strugle.

Not true, Shia Islam's Supreme Aytollah acts verymuch like a Pope and the council of leading clerics and the way it works is very much like the papacy. The big differance is the Pope is not calling for jihad/crusade anymore.

By the way on the road to Turkish enlightnment, could you stop and remember the Armenians your goverment killed in the last centuries first holocaust.

AlpErTunga
24 Oct 06,, 11:14
Not true, Shia Islam's Supreme Aytollah acts verymuch like a Pope and the council of leading clerics and the way it works is very much like the papacy. The big differance is the Pope is not calling for jihad/crusade anymore.

By the way on the road to Turkish enlightnment, could you stop and remember the Armenians your goverment killed in the last centuries first holocaust.

Armenian claims are about 1915. Turkish Republic was founded in 1923. And Turkish enlightenment movement began in 1919. Armenians claim that Ottoman Sultanate -not Turkish Republic- committed a genocide..


If we don't want jihads, crusades or other foolish craps; we have to save religion from political titles, I mean. Popes, ayetollahs, caliphs are funny puppets in the modern times. It is a shame that many muslims are far away from positive civilization but we cannot say western world is excellent. We have a religional state in the central Europe, for example. I think it is a shame, too. Also the president of the USA called the counter-terrorist operation as "crusade". It is also a shame. That's the place that secularism is killed in western world.

I don't defend terrorists of uneducated world, it cannot be even a question. But I am seeking an ideal and universal opinion about secularism.

Wooglin
24 Oct 06,, 16:50
If we don't want jihads, crusades or other foolish craps; we have to save religion from political titles.

or vice versa rather.

However, could you please point out to me where the Pope called for the murder of non-believers. I can't seem to find the quote anywhere.


I mean. Popes, ayetollahs, caliphs are funny puppets in the modern times.

They all wear funny hats. Other than that I don't really see it as a valid comparison. Again, where are the Pope's calls for Holy War? Can you please link the quotes for me?


It is a shame that many muslims are far away from positive civilization but we cannot say western world is excellent.

The western world is excellent.

Heh, whaddya know... I can say it.

AlpErTunga
24 Oct 06,, 17:15
or vice versa rather.

However, could you please point out to me where the Pope called for the murder of non-believers. I can't seem to find the quote anywhere.

Did I say the Pope called for the murder of non-believers? I "can't seem to find the quote anywhere."
As the result he is a president and also religional leader. Even existance of such a position is not suitable according to idea of secularism, is it?


They all wear funny hats. Other than that I don't really see it as a valid comparison. Again, where are the Pope's calls for Holy War? Can you please link the quotes for me?

My claim is not that, so you have to start your search from Google not me. ;)




The western world is excellent.

Heh, whaddya know... I can say it.

If you were excellent, you should have known that there is no excellent. It is f*cking conceit.

Wooglin
24 Oct 06,, 17:49
Did I say the Pope called for the murder of non-believers? I "can't seem to find the quote anywhere."
As the result he is a president and also religional leader. Even existance of such a position is not suitable according to idea of secularism, is it?

Then why are you trying to lump them all together as if they are the same? Why are you trying to draw a comparison to a religious leader with no real political power with radical religious fascists? Do you really fail to recognize a difference? If so, then obviously any further discussion would be moot.

And you never answered Gunnut's question:


And what has he done to undermine the modern Europe's secular principles?

Oh, and yeah... the western world is excellent.

zraver
24 Oct 06,, 18:52
The Pope does have real politcal power. The previous Pope was a major forc ein rallying Solidarity and in standing firm agaisnt slipping morals. The big differanc eis the Pope is not using that power to justify war and murder unlike far to many Islamic leaders.

Turkey is turkey regardles sof the people in charge and nit needs to apologize and apy reparations to the Armenians and stop threatening it and imposing illegal sanctions.

AlpErTunga
24 Oct 06,, 19:47
Then why are you trying to lump them all together as if they are the same? Why are you trying to draw a comparison to a religious leader with no real political power with radical religious fascists? Do you really fail to recognize a difference? If so, then obviously any further discussion would be moot.


All they have religional and political titles. So even existance of them are compensation on secularism.


And you never answered Gunnut's question:


So even existance of them are compensation on secularism.


Oh, and yeah... the western world is excellent.

I don't want to fling things in your teeth.


The Pope does have real politcal power. The previous Pope was a major forc ein rallying Solidarity and in standing firm agaisnt slipping morals. The big differanc eis the Pope is not using that power to justify war and murder unlike far to many Islamic leaders.

Turkey is turkey regardles sof the people in charge and nit needs to apologize and apy reparations to the Armenians and stop threatening it and imposing illegal sanctions.

One quote from old Pope;
"During 1st millenium, the Europe was converted to christianity; during 2nd millenium, the Africa and America were converted and during 3rd millenium, the Asia should be converted, the road to this target passes from Turkiye."

And you should use relevant threads about Armenian issue.

Edgeplay_cgo
26 Oct 06,, 03:48
The Pope does have real politcal power.

How many divisions has the Pope?

He has influence, as the spiritual leader of a large number of Christians, and as a man of honor and morals, and his influence is roughly proportional to those positions.

He's the political leader of a street corner in Italy. To claim that political sovereignty of The Vatican is much more than a quaint curiosity is silly.

zraver
26 Oct 06,, 19:47
How many divisions has the Pope?

He has influence, as the spiritual leader of a large number of Christians, and as a man of honor and morals, and his influence is roughly proportional to those positions.

He's the political leader of a street corner in Italy. To claim that political sovereignty of The Vatican is much more than a quaint curiosity is silly.

Ask the KGB how much politcal power he had. The Pope can serve as the focal point on a host of religious/political issues. The Big push right now is to have the vatican ok the use of contraception inside of marriage (condoms) so that a Papal Bull can be used to help stop the spread of HIV in Sub Sarah parts of Africa that look to Rome for moral guidence.