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To OOE: Patton's Invasion Plan

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  • To OOE: Patton's Invasion Plan

    If Pattons Sicily invasion plan was implemented instead of montgomerys do you believe Allied forces would have faired better or would they have faired off worst?

  • #2
    You're just talking about Sciliy and not the Italian campaign, right?

    My view is that Patton would have cut off the Wehrmacht's retreat but he would burn a hell of alot more men and material doing it than the actual casualties sufferred.

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    • #3
      My view is that Patton would have cut off the Wehrmacht's retreat but he would burn a hell of alot more men and material doing it than the actual casualties sufferred.
      Wouldn't that be good, because something like 60,000 German troops managed to cross over into mainland Italy?

      Also do you think that it was a good military decision to stop supplys to Patton's Third Army and give it to Montgumerys, Operation Market Garden.
      Last edited by Praxus; 07 Mar 04,, 03:50.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Praxus
        Wouldn't that be good, because something like 60,000 German troops managed to cross over into mainland Italy?
        But would it have made a strategic difference? I'm of the view it would not. Remember that Kesselring took a beaten army that ran faster than the Allies could advance and then turn it around and stop the Allies cold.

        And Patton wouldn't be able to attack Italy any sooner. He would have to rebuild his forces, given Kesselring the time he would need to organize his defences.

        Of the three Generals in that theatre, there is absolutely no doubt that Kesselring outshined both Montgomery and Patton combined. I really don't think that Patton could have taken on Kesselring and have a chance.

        Originally posted by Praxus
        Also do you think that it was a good military decision to stop supplys to Patton's Third Army and give it to Montgumerys, Operation Market Garden.
        I know I would have chosen Market Garden over 3rd Army. Patton's plan was a slugfest, akin to Zuhkov's drive to Berlin. Patton would not blinked an eye lossing 600,000 men just to take Berlin. I know FDR and Churchill would have put a stop to that kind of casualty loss but I'm saying that Patton was that kind of man.

        In hindsight, since Market-Garden was a failure, Patton might have a good arguement about oppertunity lost.

        I will qualify myself about Patton. He was a brilliant strategist, teaching the Germans a few things about manouver warfare but as a tactician, I wouldn't want to serve under him.

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        • #5
          Who do you feel was the best Tactician of the war?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Praxus
            Who do you feel was the best Tactician of the war?
            WOOOOOO, LOADED QUESTION!!!!!

            There's no single answer. Each action has its own merits and there's something to learn even if you don't like what happenned (ie, what NOT to do).

            You have to understand something about Lessons Learned. Lessons Learned are mistakes that no one else has made before (or rather, no one recorded them). So, the question is, before the Lessons Learned, was it a valid tactical decision based on what they know?

            For instance, Rommel's mistakes were that he never turned to kill the British. Once he broke through British lines, he just drove forward as hard and as fast as he can to his next objective, instead of turning and killing the British Forces. This allowed the British to retain their forces and withdraw in an orderly fashion and allow them to regroup.

            Kesselring stopped Patton and Montgomery but could he have won Stalingrad? I don't think so. Paulis wasn't that bad of a general and I could not see what Kesselring would have done differently, after all going on the attack instead of setting up hasty defences (ie Gustav Line).

            Then, there's Chuikov, the hero of Stalingrad who somehow discovered the sewers (really what saved his butt - that and the 1000 men a day he was throwing into the meatgrinder).

            I really like Bradley as an Operations Officer. He never got the resources Zuhkov and Patton got and yet, he always managed to gain local superiority.

            Canadian General Simmds managed a very impressive victory at the Shelt through some of the worst mud in that war. I don't know if any other general could have managed it the way he did.

            There are three generals I would like to serve under if that would help you - Kesselring, Bradley, and Simmds and not in any particular order.

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            • #7
              What happened to Kesseliring? Did he die in battle, commit suicide, or hanged as a war criminal?

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              • #8
                He was convicted of war crimes in 47 by the Brits, death sentence was commuted to life imprisionment and released after serving 6 years. I believe that he was an active member of the veterans group, demanding and working for proper compensation (imagine how hard it is to get pensions for being a Nazi deathhead) in West Germany. He died in the 60s at home.

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                • #9
                  Was he really guilty of war crimes? Did he have anything to do with concentration camps? Was he part of the inner circle that conspired to assasinate Adolf Hitler?

                  Why was he release so early if he had received a life imprisonment?

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                  • #10
                    I don't know the exact charges against him but he was certainly very ruthless when dealing with Italian insurgents and the Gustav Line was such that no quarters were asked nor given - ie no prisioners.

                    This being said, name me one General in WWII who was not guilty of war crimes. It was a very brutal war.

                    He was released as part of the Decency Release Program which was also at the time co-inciding with the rising of the Cold War and anything to piss the Soviets off.

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                    • #11
                      Whatever Kesselring did while fighting was inherantly evil simply because he was fighting for the expansion of one of the most vile systems in the history of the world.

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                      • #12
                        So was slavery and colonianism. But that doesn't stop you from admiring your military figures.

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                        • #13
                          Just out of curiousity are there any books on various generals of the war?
                          Facts to a liberal is like Kryptonite to Superman.

                          -- Larry Elder

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by smilingassassin
                            Just out of curiousity are there any books on various generals of the war?
                            Amazon books have tons of it.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Praxus
                              Whatever Kesselring did while fighting was inherantly evil simply because he was fighting for the expansion of one of the most vile systems in the history of the world.
                              War is inherantly evil. Killing fellow human beings can never be described as good no matter which side you're on.

                              Jeb Stewart as a man was one hell of a son of a bitch - slave owner, racist, willing to torture any Black man to death for wearing an Union uniform.

                              As a calvary leader, he was a pioneer. Without his work, there would not have been blitzkreig or deep battle.

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