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  • A Shattering Of The Sterotypical Image

    [The following article was published in The Hindustan Times, a very highly reputed and leading english language newspaper in India. It is an account by an Indian gentleman of his visit to Pakistan and how this shattered his typical sterotypical impressions he held prior to that visit. It makes interesting reading.]

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/1...4,00120002.htm

    Pakistan snapshots

    Abhishek Singhvi


    Having visited Pakistan four times earlier over a period of 17 years, my recent visit did not have the ‘mystery of the unknown’ syndrome which permeates most ‘first timers’ visiting our neighbour. But there were several factors which struck me as novel qua my earlier visits.

    Indian visitors are first awestruck by the grandeur of international airports in Lahore and Karachi. Not only the young Lahore airport, but also the much older one at Karachi would give a run for the money to any airport in the world. These airports outstrip every Indian one in every department: from size to services available, from cleanliness to efficiency, from gadgetry to grandeur, from charm and elegance to organisational discipline. Indian governments have clearly underestimated the psychological consequences of such efficiently organised utilities which are the first assault on visitors’ senses and their first interface with any host country.

    The second aspect is the support enjoyed by Pervez Musharraf cutting across a wide cross-section of the population. This stems from the perception that the general is not personally corrupt and that in his over four years rule, no major monetary scandal has occurred. That, by itself, is a rarity for most countries of the subcontinent and this general perception is slowly but surely creating the halo of a ‘platonic benevolent dictator’ around the general.


    A third factor which reinforces this image are the many appointments made by the general of technocrats and professionals enjoying an unsullied reputation. Unfettered by the compulsions of electoral politics, Musharraf has eschewed crony capitalism and appointed achievers to key positions. Even the general’s critics and rivals commended the appointment of the young Cambridge educated Attorney General Makhdoom Alam as being purely merit-based.

    Incidentally, it was the AG’s last minute intervention which ensured timely issue of visas for a 50-strong Indian delegation visiting Karachi for the 10th Saarc Law Conference. Such meritorious appointments have been made to several other key positions.

    Fourth, there is an opening up of Pakistani society and the permeation of a distinctly liberal ethic in the politico-military-religious establishment. One can see it in the clear absence of distrust on Indo-Pak issues. One can see it in Pakistan’s media that write and speak more freely against religious orthodoxy and a conservative status quo. I saw several TV programmes openly discussing marriage, morals and other issues hitherto considered out of bounds. There are repeated suo motu assertions of the negative impact of terrorism in general and how a global war on terrorism is necessary to rid Islam from the taint of ‘Islamic terrorism’. Reform of madrasas and the necessity to combat religious indoctrination distorting true religion are topics debated with an openness unthinkable a few years ago.

    Many first timers in our delegation were struck by the status of women in Lahore and Karachi. They wear the best clothes and pursue the latest fashions. They are as articulate and (almost) as visible at conferences, shopping malls, public places and in the media as their Indian counterparts. They are ambitious and are entering the legal profession in large numbers, although women judges at the high court level are few and in the Supreme Court a rarity. The only reason Pakistan does not have a Miss Universe or Miss World is because it chooses not to participate in these contests. We were interviewed by lady journalists, interrogated by lady rapporteurs, surrounded by lady lawyers, escorted by lady organisers, and entertained by lady performers, all belonging to progressive and assertive Generation Next. Many stereotypes about women in Islamic Pakistan, harboured by Indian first timers, were thus shattered.

    Sixth, more and more Pakistanis in open public conversation are the first to assert their admiration for Indian institutions of governance — like the judiciary, the Election Commission of India, the press — as true hallmarks of core democratic values. In comparison, Pakistani institutions have repeatedly suffered ravages at fledgling stages of their development. But there is genuine envy with which Pakistanis recognise this truth and great candour with which they express it. It is this yearning for openness and institutional continuity and this admiration for Indian institutions which bodes well for the future of Pakistani and for Indo-Pak relations.

    Many of the old paradigms remain. Several articles of common consumption continue to be cheaper in Karachi than in India. All kinds of clothes and electronic equipment are significantly cheaper, sometimes by as much as 50 per cent. The rich in Karachi and Lahore continue to live more luxuriously than the rich in India (and that is saying something given the lavish lifestyles of the Indian rich). Kashmir still remains taboo as a topic in Indo-Pak social intercourse and vegetarians like me continue to find it difficult to choose as far as cuisine is concerned.

    Finally, the significance of NGOs like Saarc- Law in the building of bridges and people-to-people contact cannot be overemphasised. The warmth, affection and hospitality generated by SaarcLaw conferences over 13 years is palpable and unrivalled in comparison to any European or American meet of professionals. Each conference involves embarrassingly generous displays of hospitality and Indo-Pak peace rhetoric.

    Bonhomie becomes so pronounced that other SaarcLaw delegates remind us that they are ‘Saarcarians’ and not bilaterals engaged in Indo-Pak dialogue. Serious initiatives like a legal framework for a Saarc Economic Union, Sapta and Safta, a Saarc mediation and arbitration centre, a SaarcLaw University and for the framing of model laws have been proposed. Though progress is slow, the enthusiasm for such proposals is truly humungous.
    Last edited by visioninthedark; 27 Feb 04,, 16:05.

  • #2
    Vision,

    Pakistan is a great country. Better than anywhere else in the world.

    Thank you for the info.

    Abhishek Singhvi is a Congress Party (major Opposition party which has ruled us for a long time and now in the dumps) hack. Atal B Vajpayee our Prime Minsiter has done a great job in bringing the India Pak divide down, so this Congress Party joe (who claim they are secular and have done damn all) want to make up so that his party does not lose Muslim votes in the Genral Election in April 2004. It must be remembered that AB Vajpayees party is supposed to be the radical Hindu party. Interesting isnt it that Muslims are joining his party in droves. He has done more for India Pakistan amity than the so called secular Congress party which has done nothing.

    Therefore, I don't buy what Singhvi says.

    Notwithstanding, there are good things about Pakistan and one must accept the same. The airports are real good.

    I
    Last edited by Ray; 01 Mar 04,, 19:21.


    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

    HAKUNA MATATA

    Comment


    • #3
      Cloth is cheaper in Pakistan?? you ought to be kidding. I dont see any big apparel house in Pakistan exporting goods.

      Electronics may be cheap...thanks to the porous border with China. But if Pakistan wants to be an active trading member with WTO they have to cut down every illegal trade.

      Even though this article says women in Pakistan have all the rights, we still hear those honour killings in Pakistan. Not to mention that MMA ruling state which is tearing down all the posters and advertisements which portray women.

      You have good airports, agreed.but how many international carriers disembark in Pakistan??

      Well, other than that i'd defintely say Pakistan has defintely improved over the years.
      A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

      Comment


      • #4
        Vision,

        Do you know why Pakistan is looking up?

        It is because an Indian born is leading the country i.e. Musharraf. Born and brought up in the Indian capital - Delhi.

        Therefore, I wish Musharraf well.

        Parochial? Maybe.:clap:

        A Mohajir is smarter than home brewed one.


        "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

        I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

        HAKUNA MATATA

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Ray
          Vision,

          Pakistan is a great country. Better than anywhere else in the world.

          Thank you for the info.

          Abhishek Singhvi is a Congress Party (major Opposition party which has ruled us for a long time and now in the dumps) hack. Atal B Vajpayee our Prime Minsiter has done a great job in bringing the India Pak divide down, so this Congress Party joe (who claim they are secular and have done damn all) want to make up so that his party does not lose Muslim votes in the Genral Election in April 2004. It must be remembered that AB Vajpayees party is supposed to be the radical Hindu party. Interesting isnt it that Muslims are joining his party in droves. He has done more for India Pakistan amity than the so called secular Congress party which has done nothing.

          Therefore, I don't buy what Singhvi says.

          Notwithstanding, there are good things about Pakistan and one must accept the same. The airports are real good.

          I
          I certainly don't know about the world; I was simply quoting what an INDIAN wrter wrote about Pakistan!

          How does the authors being an EX-congress member automatically qualify him as being biased towards Pakistan?

          Why should a reputed newspaper like the Hindustan Times print his article if it were purely a figment of his imagination?

          If you don't know about Pakistan and one of your own is trying to tell you about it; why do you all of a sudden question his patriotism ... ??

          Did you ever pause to think that maybe, just maybe ... it is you who are unaware of the true situation??

          or is your personal view the final word??

          Anyways, I am sure there are many good things about India too, and I accept that too!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Ray
            Vision,

            Do you know why Pakistan is looking up?

            It is because an Indian born is leading the country i.e. Musharraf. Born and brought up in the Indian capital - Delhi.

            Therefore, I wish Musharraf well.

            Parochial? Maybe.:clap:

            A Mohajir is smarter than home brewed one.
            He was born in Dehli BUT WAS NOT BROUGHT UP IN DEHLI ...

            they migrated to Pakistan when he was a little todler ...

            anyways; as you said, those who migrated are much more NATIONALISTIC AND PATRIOTIC Pakistanis!!

            they care about pakistan more ... since they built it with great sacrifice ... blood and tears ...

            Comment


            • #7
              Vision papu,
              Dont get pumped up. There are a ton of leftists in India who can bitch about the govt and the functioning now and then.

              And in India, opposition members oppose everything. Its a great opportunity for them or a sport to compare with Pakistan now and then.

              I've seen lahore and karachi airport pictures, I think the author purely exaggarted them or may be he never been to any of the western or say S'pore airport.

              We dont take these reports to heart coz we know the political climate which made them write these reports.

              Hindustan Times just published it as their column, its not a news piece. Every tom, dick and harry write columns in major news papers to articulate their political leanings and views, it doesnt mean that its the truth.

              Honestly tell me, do you think Lahore or Karachi airports can be compared with KLIA or CHANGI ??

              And this guy is thanking Mushraff. Its becoz of previous military generals democratic institutions are in shambles in Pakistan. If these generals didnt byepass the civilian govts for long, these institutions wudve produced finest managers, so that you dont need to handpick civilian people from out of nowhere to run a country.
              A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

              Comment


              • #8
                Meanwhile ponder this one, it was written by a lahore based columnist in The News...

                The sight of Indian actress Urmilla on the rooftops of the old city of Lahore is a sight for sore eyes any time of the day. This week another 270 delegates from India among which are Naseeruddin Shah and Shabana Azmi, are expected to cross over into Pakistan. As both countries take a series of steps, gingerly to start with, there is just that little light at the end of the dark and endless tunnel that has held us "prisoners of our own device" — as The Eagles put it in the famous number Hotel California. Will these measures lead to peace is a question for which even Tauqir Zia has no answers. All we can do is hope, pray and contribute in whatever way we can to normalise relations and bury the many hatchets that we have brandished for the last half-century.

                Travelling last week on the Wazirabad-Sambrial road towards Sialkot, the potholes and bumps on that narrow ribbon strip road began to revive memories of long forgotten journeys made on that same road. I could have, after a few violent and rib-shaking miles, sworn these holes and craters were the same when one was in Kindergarten. Nothing seemed to have changed except that the dust was thicker, the pollution dismal and the people in numbers too large to comprehend. Perhaps in most of India the situation is not very much different and our much-touted smirking observations that India has huge problems might have given us years of self-induced smugness, but things across the divide are changing at a speed that baffles the mind. Some years ago, an Indian said to a Pakistani, "It is true we are both in the gutter. The difference is, we are looking at the stars. You are looking at the gutter."

                Many of us associate India’s new progress with its IT revolution and it is partly true. Indian companies like Moser-Baer located in an equally unknown Noida are now the world’s third largest optical media manufacturer and the lowest-cost producer of CD-Recorders. Exports? Only Rs 1,000 crore — Indian rupees I might add. This firm sells data-storage products to seven of the world’s top 10 CD-R producers. There is another unknown. Tandon Electronics. Its hardware exports are Rs 4,000 crore.

                There is more depressing data, all of it quite true and impartial. 15 of the world’s major automobile makers are obtaining components from Indian companies. This business fetched India $375 million last year and in 2003 the number will be $1.5 billion. In half a decade, they will reach $15 billion. Hero Honda with 17 lakh motorcycles a year is now the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world. The prestigious UK automaker, Rover is marketing 1 lakh Indica cars made by Tata in Europe, under, wait a minute, its own name. Bharat Forge has the world’s largest single-location forging facility. It produces 1.2 lakh tonnes per annum and its clients include Honda, Toyota and Volvo among others. Asian Paints now owns 22 production facilities over 5 continents and is the market leader in 11 of these countries. Hindustan Inks has the world’s largest single stream fully integrated ink plant of 1-lakh tones per annum capacity and 100% owned subsidiaries in USA and Austria. Essel Propack is the world’s largest laminated tube manufacturer with presence in 11 countries and a global marketing share of 25% already. Ford has just presented its Gold World Excellence Award to India’s Cooper Tyres. Other industries are winning equally prestigious awards all the time. While on cars, Aston Martin has contracted prototyping its latest luxury sports car to an Indian-based designer and is set to produce the cheapest Aston Martin ever. Suzuki, which makes Maruti in India has decided to make India its manufacturing, export and research hub outside Japan. Hyundai India is set to become the global small car hub for the Korean giant and will produce 25,000 Santros to start with. By 2010 it is set to supply half a million cars to Hyundai Korea. HMI and Ford India are leaping ahead, posting astonishing results in the global markets from Brazil to China.

                The Indian pharmaceutical industry is blazing ahead too. At $6.5 billion and growing at 8-10% annually, it is the 4th largest pharmaceutical industry in the world. Its exports are over $2 billion. India is among the top five bulk drug makers and at home, the local industry has edged out the MNCs whose share of 75% in the market is down to 35%. Trade of medicinal plants has crossed Rs 4,000 crore already.

                As for technology, India is among the three countries that have built supercomputers on their own. The other two are USA and Japan. Not a bad club to be in, is it? India is among six countries that launch satellites and do so even for Germany and Belgium. India’s INSAT is among the world’s largest domestic satellite communication systems. Here are more depressing facts. India is one of the world’s largest diamond cutting and polishing centres. About 9 out of 10 stones sold anywhere in the world, pass through India. With China, India’s arch enemy, trade has grown by 104% in the past year and in the first 5 months of 2003, India has amassed a surplus in trade close to half a million dollars. In the recession-hit West, Indian exports are up by 19% this year and the country’s foreign exchange reserves stand at an all-time high of $82 billion. India is dishing out aid to 11 countries, pre-paying their debt and loaned IMF $300 million!! And since we think banning fashion shows is the way ahead, it might be interesting to know that Wal-Mart sources $1 billion worth of goods from India — half its apparel, GAP about $600 million and Hilfiger $100 million.

                These success stories are not propaganda and haven’t happened overnight or by good fortune. The Indians have the same bureaucracy and many of the politicians simply play politics, the infrastructure creaks and poverty abounds, corruption flourishes and there are huge pockets of inefficiency and walls that block meaningful progress. Sure, it has an army that is not bursting with power-grabbing and subjugating its people every few years, but India’s success can no longer be denied and the gap between us and them grows wider by, if I may use my childhood idiom, leaps and bounds. What makes them tick? The answers are not simple and require great space and analysis by minds far superior to that of a weekly hack, but Cost and Brains are two factors. Add to that, a determination to rise above what faces you everyday, a vision of the stars as the man said. India provides IT services at one-tenth the price. No wonder more and more companies are basing their operations in India. An Indian MBA costs $5,000. An American MBA $120,000. Development of an automobile in the US costs $1 billion. In India, less than half. A cataract operation costs $1500 in the US. In India, $12. Bypass in the US anywhere up to Rs 6 lakhs. In India, it is Rs 40,000. Over 70 MNCs have set up R&D facilities in India in the past five years. 100 of the Fortune 500 are now present in India vs 33 in China. Intel’s Indian staff strength has gone up from 10 to 1,000 in four years. GE with a $60 million invested in India employs 1,600 researchers, while it has only 100 in China. With better systems comes efficiency. The turnaround time in Indian ports is down to 4 days from 10 and its telecom infrastructure in 1999 provided a bandwidth of 155 Mbps. Today, it is 75,000 times more and with fibre optic networks in 300 cities, it will change the face of business. Mobile phones are growing by about 1.5 million a month. Long distance rates are down by two-thirds in five years and by 80% for data transmission. The facts go on and on.

                So what are the answers? They lie in the way we look at things, our discourse, our vision, our ability to look ahead and our desire to genuinely put our country on the right road. The people of the subcontinent are naturally talented and bright. When will we unleash the great potential of our people that lies dormant, crushed by the forces of evil that stop our progress for their personal agendas?

                http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/dec20...03/oped/o1.htm

                So do you think we'll rejoice on looking at this news piece saying that finally we reached our potential??
                Last edited by Jay; 08 Mar 04,, 22:20.
                A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jay
                  Meanwhile ponder this one, it was written by a lahore based columnist in The News...

                  The sight of Indian actress Urmilla on the rooftops of the old city of Lahore is a sight for sore eyes any time of the day. This week another 270 delegates from India among which are Naseeruddin Shah and Shabana Azmi, are expected to cross over into Pakistan. As both countries take a series of steps, gingerly to start with, there is just that little light at the end of the dark and endless tunnel that has held us "prisoners of our own device" — as The Eagles put it in the famous number Hotel California. Will these measures lead to peace is a question for which even Tauqir Zia has no answers. All we can do is hope, pray and contribute in whatever way we can to normalise relations and bury the many hatchets that we have brandished for the last half-century.

                  Travelling last week on the Wazirabad-Sambrial road towards Sialkot, the potholes and bumps on that narrow ribbon strip road began to revive memories of long forgotten journeys made on that same road. I could have, after a few violent and rib-shaking miles, sworn these holes and craters were the same when one was in Kindergarten. Nothing seemed to have changed except that the dust was thicker, the pollution dismal and the people in numbers too large to comprehend. Perhaps in most of India the situation is not very much different and our much-touted smirking observations that India has huge problems might have given us years of self-induced smugness, but things across the divide are changing at a speed that baffles the mind. Some years ago, an Indian said to a Pakistani, "It is true we are both in the gutter. The difference is, we are looking at the stars. You are looking at the gutter."

                  Many of us associate India’s new progress with its IT revolution and it is partly true. Indian companies like Moser-Baer located in an equally unknown Noida are now the world’s third largest optical media manufacturer and the lowest-cost producer of CD-Recorders. Exports? Only Rs 1,000 crore — Indian rupees I might add. This firm sells data-storage products to seven of the world’s top 10 CD-R producers. There is another unknown. Tandon Electronics. Its hardware exports are Rs 4,000 crore.

                  There is more depressing data, all of it quite true and impartial. 15 of the world’s major automobile makers are obtaining components from Indian companies. This business fetched India $375 million last year and in 2003 the number will be $1.5 billion. In half a decade, they will reach $15 billion. Hero Honda with 17 lakh motorcycles a year is now the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world. The prestigious UK automaker, Rover is marketing 1 lakh Indica cars made by Tata in Europe, under, wait a minute, its own name. Bharat Forge has the world’s largest single-location forging facility. It produces 1.2 lakh tonnes per annum and its clients include Honda, Toyota and Volvo among others. Asian Paints now owns 22 production facilities over 5 continents and is the market leader in 11 of these countries. Hindustan Inks has the world’s largest single stream fully integrated ink plant of 1-lakh tones per annum capacity and 100% owned subsidiaries in USA and Austria. Essel Propack is the world’s largest laminated tube manufacturer with presence in 11 countries and a global marketing share of 25% already. Ford has just presented its Gold World Excellence Award to India’s Cooper Tyres. Other industries are winning equally prestigious awards all the time. While on cars, Aston Martin has contracted prototyping its latest luxury sports car to an Indian-based designer and is set to produce the cheapest Aston Martin ever. Suzuki, which makes Maruti in India has decided to make India its manufacturing, export and research hub outside Japan. Hyundai India is set to become the global small car hub for the Korean giant and will produce 25,000 Santros to start with. By 2010 it is set to supply half a million cars to Hyundai Korea. HMI and Ford India are leaping ahead, posting astonishing results in the global markets from Brazil to China.

                  The Indian pharmaceutical industry is blazing ahead too. At $6.5 billion and growing at 8-10% annually, it is the 4th largest pharmaceutical industry in the world. Its exports are over $2 billion. India is among the top five bulk drug makers and at home, the local industry has edged out the MNCs whose share of 75% in the market is down to 35%. Trade of medicinal plants has crossed Rs 4,000 crore already.

                  As for technology, India is among the three countries that have built supercomputers on their own. The other two are USA and Japan. Not a bad club to be in, is it? India is among six countries that launch satellites and do so even for Germany and Belgium. India’s INSAT is among the world’s largest domestic satellite communication systems. Here are more depressing facts. India is one of the world’s largest diamond cutting and polishing centres. About 9 out of 10 stones sold anywhere in the world, pass through India. With China, India’s arch enemy, trade has grown by 104% in the past year and in the first 5 months of 2003, India has amassed a surplus in trade close to half a million dollars. In the recession-hit West, Indian exports are up by 19% this year and the country’s foreign exchange reserves stand at an all-time high of $82 billion. India is dishing out aid to 11 countries, pre-paying their debt and loaned IMF $300 million!! And since we think banning fashion shows is the way ahead, it might be interesting to know that Wal-Mart sources $1 billion worth of goods from India — half its apparel, GAP about $600 million and Hilfiger $100 million.

                  These success stories are not propaganda and haven’t happened overnight or by good fortune. The Indians have the same bureaucracy and many of the politicians simply play politics, the infrastructure creaks and poverty abounds, corruption flourishes and there are huge pockets of inefficiency and walls that block meaningful progress. Sure, it has an army that is not bursting with power-grabbing and subjugating its people every few years, but India’s success can no longer be denied and the gap between us and them grows wider by, if I may use my childhood idiom, leaps and bounds. What makes them tick? The answers are not simple and require great space and analysis by minds far superior to that of a weekly hack, but Cost and Brains are two factors. Add to that, a determination to rise above what faces you everyday, a vision of the stars as the man said. India provides IT services at one-tenth the price. No wonder more and more companies are basing their operations in India. An Indian MBA costs $5,000. An American MBA $120,000. Development of an automobile in the US costs $1 billion. In India, less than half. A cataract operation costs $1500 in the US. In India, $12. Bypass in the US anywhere up to Rs 6 lakhs. In India, it is Rs 40,000. Over 70 MNCs have set up R&D facilities in India in the past five years. 100 of the Fortune 500 are now present in India vs 33 in China. Intel’s Indian staff strength has gone up from 10 to 1,000 in four years. GE with a $60 million invested in India employs 1,600 researchers, while it has only 100 in China. With better systems comes efficiency. The turnaround time in Indian ports is down to 4 days from 10 and its telecom infrastructure in 1999 provided a bandwidth of 155 Mbps. Today, it is 75,000 times more and with fibre optic networks in 300 cities, it will change the face of business. Mobile phones are growing by about 1.5 million a month. Long distance rates are down by two-thirds in five years and by 80% for data transmission. The facts go on and on.

                  So what are the answers? They lie in the way we look at things, our discourse, our vision, our ability to look ahead and our desire to genuinely put our country on the right road. The people of the subcontinent are naturally talented and bright. When will we unleash the great potential of our people that lies dormant, crushed by the forces of evil that stop our progress for their personal agendas?

                  http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/dec20...03/oped/o1.htm

                  So do you think we'll rejoice on looking at this news piece saying that finally we reached our potential??
                  Jay;

                  Thank you very much for proving to all the readers that Pakistan has one of the most free and dynamic local press and media in Asia if not in the world!

                  Thank You!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Too bad you dont have a democratic political system. Just free press would do no good for a common poor man in Karachi. He cannot change the corrupt policy makers, let alone disguised military generals. So in essence this free press newspaper is worth to be in his toilet, thats the only place I can think of.
                    A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A free press is the essence of a democratic culture and society!

                      As a people; Pakistanis have a culture of freedom!

                      As regards democracy; it exists in SUBSTANCE rather than FORM alone ... as was the case previously!

                      Policy makers are NOT corrupt ... generals are NOT disguised ... please don't judge us using experiences in other countries that may have shaped your mentality!

                      We are DIFFERENT ... I think you get me!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A culture of freedom, which is prevalent in a democracy is but a mirage if it is not allowed to be practised.

                        The recent election in Iran would be stated by the Iranian theologists (who can veto any decision and where the reformists candidates were not allowed to stand for election) as a proof of their vibrant democracy. But is that democracy? The theologists feel that they have a culture of tolerance and freedom. Can the latest Iranian election be acccepted to be so?

                        There is, in my humble opinion, a lot of difference between desire and reality.


                        "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                        I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                        HAKUNA MATATA

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by visioninthedark
                          Policy makers are NOT corrupt ... generals are NOT disguised ... please don't judge us using experiences in other countries that may have shaped your mentality!

                          We are DIFFERENT ... I think you get me!
                          Benazir Bhutto, Nawaz Sheriff both were convicted for corruption.

                          Gen.Zia Ul Haq and Gen.Musharaff military men disguised as civil rulers, they dismissed the democratic govts and assumed charge as Predident of Pakistan wearing their service Uniform.
                          A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            THe common poor man in Karachi has pretty much the same rights as any other country, bearing in mind he has to share it with 150 million other people. He has the right to vote for a party he agrees with, and if any of the main political parties are not his cup of tea, then he may exercise his right form form a political party.
                            Apart from this, he has the democratic freedom in any way he wishes, just so long as it does not intefere with the rights of another individual.

                            Bhutto and her husband were found guilty of corruption in Pakistani and Swiss courts I dont think anyone here will disagree that she was

                            Okay sure, Pres. Musharraf is not democratically elected, but neither is the Queen, Musharraf holds similar powers to the queen, ie the right to dissolve parliament. now would we call Britain a dictatorship? The makeup of both houses in Pakistan were from the results of elections validated by the UN and America. I agree there are flaws in Pakistani democracy, but hell show me where its implemented

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jay
                              Cloth is cheaper in Pakistan?? you ought to be kidding. I dont see any big apparel house in Pakistan exporting goods.

                              Electronics may be cheap...thanks to the porous border with China. But if Pakistan wants to be an active trading member with WTO they have to cut down every illegal trade.

                              Even though this article says women in Pakistan have all the rights, we still hear those honour killings in Pakistan. Not to mention that MMA ruling state which is tearing down all the posters and advertisements which portray women.

                              You have good airports, agreed.but how many international carriers disembark in Pakistan??

                              Well, other than that i'd defintely say Pakistan has defintely improved over the years.
                              Many international carriers serve Karachi; it's the gateway between Asia and the Middle East!

                              Aero Asia:
                              Tel : 45791190

                              Aeroflot:
                              Tel : 519192 , 512838

                              African Airlines:
                              Tel: 4554245+Fax

                              Air China:
                              Tel : 4542559 - Fax: 4547071

                              Air France:
                              Tel : 5681071-5, Fax: 5684815

                              Air Lanka:
                              Tel : 5680382 , 5678286-Fax: 5675863

                              Biman Bangladesh Airlines:
                              Tel : 5662008-Fax: 5662008

                              PIAC:
                              Tel : 45794769 , 4578700

                              Bhoja Air:
                              Tel : 45791037-41 , 4574494

                              British Airways:
                              Tel : 051-564702 , 565413-Fax: 051-563672

                              Egypt Air:
                              Tel: 5689605 , 5661125 , 5678066-Fax: 5688790

                              Cathay Pacific:
                              Tel: 5660391

                              Emirates Airllines:
                              Tel: 5684500-Fax 5684860

                              Ethiopian Airlines:
                              Tel: 5661713 , 5687301-Fax 5661715

                              Qatar Airways:
                              Tel:5687804-Fax: 5683508

                              Gulf Air:
                              Tel: 5682265 , 5678270-Fax: 5685643

                              Iran Air:
                              Tel: 516293 , 5678274-Fax: 5684055

                              Indian Airlines:
                              Tel: 5682035 , 5682034-Fax: 5692188

                              Royal Jordanian Airlines:
                              Tel: 5660440-Fax: 5682026

                              Kenya Airways:
                              Tel: 5683272-Fax: 5680478

                              KLM Royal Dutch Airlines:
                              Tel: 568 9211-Fax: 5681132

                              Korean Air:
                              Tel: 5662465-Fax: 4572135

                              Kuwait Airways:
                              Tel: 5683272-Fax: 5680478

                              Lufthansa German Airlines:
                              Tel: 4571081/4571096/4571283 -Fax: 4570975

                              Malaysian Airlines:
                              Tel: 5682629-Fax: 5682195

                              Oman Airways:
                              Tel: 5689700 , 5689642-Fax: 565092

                              Safe Air: Tel:
                              45791285 , 5879057

                              Saudi Arabian Airlines:
                              Tel: 568213 , 5682525-Fax: 5688872

                              Shaheen Air:
                              Tel: 4591185-1252 , 111-808080

                              Swiss Air: Tel:
                              5682307 , 5675344-Fax: 5681510

                              Syrian Arabian Airlines:
                              Tel: 5682827 , 5684037-Fax: 5685829

                              Thai Airways International:
                              Tel: 5660156/58/59-Fax: 5660684

                              Turkish Airlines:
                              Tel: 5670069-Fax: 5681513

                              Turkmenistan Airlines:
                              Tel: 513468 , 513941-Fax: 5678862

                              Uzbekistan Airways:
                              Tel: 5872493-Fax: 5871101

                              Xin Jiang Airlines of China:
                              Tel: 051-273446 , 273447 Fax: 051-273448

                              Yemen Airways:
                              Tel: 514776-Fax: 5684234

                              Singapore Airlines:
                              Tel: 5686198 , 5683695-Fax: 5683695
                              Pakistan should recognise Israel for our own gain in Technology, Finance and Support! Many Muslim countries (Arab) do the exact same thing for their own benefits. Recognition would split Israeli loyalties with India and half of our problems in the region would disappear. Why should we fly the Palestinian flag when they have never uttered a word against India with regards to Kashmir!

                              DEPORT FANATICS/MULLAHS FROM PAKISTAN

                              Bollywood = Cheap Hollywood Script + Pakistani Music

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