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visioninthedark
27 Feb 04,, 15:26
[The following article was published in The Hindustan Times, a very highly reputed and leading english language newspaper in India. It is an account by an Indian gentleman of his visit to Pakistan and how this shattered his typical sterotypical impressions he held prior to that visit. It makes interesting reading.]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_585264,00120002.htm

Pakistan snapshots

Abhishek Singhvi


Having visited Pakistan four times earlier over a period of 17 years, my recent visit did not have the ‘mystery of the unknown’ syndrome which permeates most ‘first timers’ visiting our neighbour. But there were several factors which struck me as novel qua my earlier visits.

Indian visitors are first awestruck by the grandeur of international airports in Lahore and Karachi. Not only the young Lahore airport, but also the much older one at Karachi would give a run for the money to any airport in the world. These airports outstrip every Indian one in every department: from size to services available, from cleanliness to efficiency, from gadgetry to grandeur, from charm and elegance to organisational discipline. Indian governments have clearly underestimated the psychological consequences of such efficiently organised utilities which are the first assault on visitors’ senses and their first interface with any host country.

The second aspect is the support enjoyed by Pervez Musharraf cutting across a wide cross-section of the population. This stems from the perception that the general is not personally corrupt and that in his over four years rule, no major monetary scandal has occurred. That, by itself, is a rarity for most countries of the subcontinent and this general perception is slowly but surely creating the halo of a ‘platonic benevolent dictator’ around the general.

A third factor which reinforces this image are the many appointments made by the general of technocrats and professionals enjoying an unsullied reputation. Unfettered by the compulsions of electoral politics, Musharraf has eschewed crony capitalism and appointed achievers to key positions. Even the general’s critics and rivals commended the appointment of the young Cambridge educated Attorney General Makhdoom Alam as being purely merit-based.

Incidentally, it was the AG’s last minute intervention which ensured timely issue of visas for a 50-strong Indian delegation visiting Karachi for the 10th Saarc Law Conference. Such meritorious appointments have been made to several other key positions.

Fourth, there is an opening up of Pakistani society and the permeation of a distinctly liberal ethic in the politico-military-religious establishment. One can see it in the clear absence of distrust on Indo-Pak issues. One can see it in Pakistan’s media that write and speak more freely against religious orthodoxy and a conservative status quo. I saw several TV programmes openly discussing marriage, morals and other issues hitherto considered out of bounds. There are repeated suo motu assertions of the negative impact of terrorism in general and how a global war on terrorism is necessary to rid Islam from the taint of ‘Islamic terrorism’. Reform of madrasas and the necessity to combat religious indoctrination distorting true religion are topics debated with an openness unthinkable a few years ago.

Many first timers in our delegation were struck by the status of women in Lahore and Karachi. They wear the best clothes and pursue the latest fashions. They are as articulate and (almost) as visible at conferences, shopping malls, public places and in the media as their Indian counterparts. They are ambitious and are entering the legal profession in large numbers, although women judges at the high court level are few and in the Supreme Court a rarity. The only reason Pakistan does not have a Miss Universe or Miss World is because it chooses not to participate in these contests. We were interviewed by lady journalists, interrogated by lady rapporteurs, surrounded by lady lawyers, escorted by lady organisers, and entertained by lady performers, all belonging to progressive and assertive Generation Next. Many stereotypes about women in Islamic Pakistan, harboured by Indian first timers, were thus shattered.

Sixth, more and more Pakistanis in open public conversation are the first to assert their admiration for Indian institutions of governance — like the judiciary, the Election Commission of India, the press — as true hallmarks of core democratic values. In comparison, Pakistani institutions have repeatedly suffered ravages at fledgling stages of their development. But there is genuine envy with which Pakistanis recognise this truth and great candour with which they express it. It is this yearning for openness and institutional continuity and this admiration for Indian institutions which bodes well for the future of Pakistani and for Indo-Pak relations.

Many of the old paradigms remain. Several articles of common consumption continue to be cheaper in Karachi than in India. All kinds of clothes and electronic equipment are significantly cheaper, sometimes by as much as 50 per cent. The rich in Karachi and Lahore continue to live more luxuriously than the rich in India (and that is saying something given the lavish lifestyles of the Indian rich). Kashmir still remains taboo as a topic in Indo-Pak social intercourse and vegetarians like me continue to find it difficult to choose as far as cuisine is concerned.

Finally, the significance of NGOs like Saarc- Law in the building of bridges and people-to-people contact cannot be overemphasised. The warmth, affection and hospitality generated by SaarcLaw conferences over 13 years is palpable and unrivalled in comparison to any European or American meet of professionals. Each conference involves embarrassingly generous displays of hospitality and Indo-Pak peace rhetoric.

Bonhomie becomes so pronounced that other SaarcLaw delegates remind us that they are ‘Saarcarians’ and not bilaterals engaged in Indo-Pak dialogue. Serious initiatives like a legal framework for a Saarc Economic Union, Sapta and Safta, a Saarc mediation and arbitration centre, a SaarcLaw University and for the framing of model laws have been proposed. Though progress is slow, the enthusiasm for such proposals is truly humungous.

Ray
01 Mar 04,, 19:06
Vision,

Pakistan is a great country. Better than anywhere else in the world.

Thank you for the info.

Abhishek Singhvi is a Congress Party (major Opposition party which has ruled us for a long time and now in the dumps) hack. Atal B Vajpayee our Prime Minsiter has done a great job in bringing the India Pak divide down, so this Congress Party joe (who claim they are secular and have done damn all) want to make up so that his party does not lose Muslim votes in the Genral Election in April 2004. It must be remembered that AB Vajpayees party is supposed to be the radical Hindu party. Interesting isnt it that Muslims are joining his party in droves. He has done more for India Pakistan amity than the so called secular Congress party which has done nothing.

Therefore, I don't buy what Singhvi says.

Notwithstanding, there are good things about Pakistan and one must accept the same. The airports are real good.

I

Jay
01 Mar 04,, 19:17
Cloth is cheaper in Pakistan?? you ought to be kidding. I dont see any big apparel house in Pakistan exporting goods.

Electronics may be cheap...thanks to the porous border with China. But if Pakistan wants to be an active trading member with WTO they have to cut down every illegal trade.

Even though this article says women in Pakistan have all the rights, we still hear those honour killings in Pakistan. Not to mention that MMA ruling state which is tearing down all the posters and advertisements which portray women.

You have good airports, agreed.but how many international carriers disembark in Pakistan??

Well, other than that i'd defintely say Pakistan has defintely improved over the years.

Ray
01 Mar 04,, 19:24
Vision,

Do you know why Pakistan is looking up?

It is because an Indian born is leading the country i.e. Musharraf. Born and brought up in the Indian capital - Delhi.

Therefore, I wish Musharraf well.

Parochial? Maybe.:clap:

A Mohajir is smarter than home brewed one.

visioninthedark
08 Mar 04,, 15:52
Originally posted by Ray
Vision,

Pakistan is a great country. Better than anywhere else in the world.

Thank you for the info.

Abhishek Singhvi is a Congress Party (major Opposition party which has ruled us for a long time and now in the dumps) hack. Atal B Vajpayee our Prime Minsiter has done a great job in bringing the India Pak divide down, so this Congress Party joe (who claim they are secular and have done damn all) want to make up so that his party does not lose Muslim votes in the Genral Election in April 2004. It must be remembered that AB Vajpayees party is supposed to be the radical Hindu party. Interesting isnt it that Muslims are joining his party in droves. He has done more for India Pakistan amity than the so called secular Congress party which has done nothing.

Therefore, I don't buy what Singhvi says.

Notwithstanding, there are good things about Pakistan and one must accept the same. The airports are real good.

I

I certainly don't know about the world; I was simply quoting what an INDIAN wrter wrote about Pakistan!

How does the authors being an EX-congress member automatically qualify him as being biased towards Pakistan?

Why should a reputed newspaper like the Hindustan Times print his article if it were purely a figment of his imagination?

If you don't know about Pakistan and one of your own is trying to tell you about it; why do you all of a sudden question his patriotism ... ??

Did you ever pause to think that maybe, just maybe ... it is you who are unaware of the true situation??

or is your personal view the final word??

Anyways, I am sure there are many good things about India too, and I accept that too!

visioninthedark
08 Mar 04,, 15:59
Originally posted by Ray
Vision,

Do you know why Pakistan is looking up?

It is because an Indian born is leading the country i.e. Musharraf. Born and brought up in the Indian capital - Delhi.

Therefore, I wish Musharraf well.

Parochial? Maybe.:clap:

A Mohajir is smarter than home brewed one.

He was born in Dehli BUT WAS NOT BROUGHT UP IN DEHLI ...

they migrated to Pakistan when he was a little todler ...

anyways; as you said, those who migrated are much more NATIONALISTIC AND PATRIOTIC Pakistanis!!

they care about pakistan more ... since they built it with great sacrifice ... blood and tears ...

Jay
08 Mar 04,, 22:02
Vision papu,
Dont get pumped up. There are a ton of leftists in India who can bitch about the govt and the functioning now and then.

And in India, opposition members oppose everything. Its a great opportunity for them or a sport to compare with Pakistan now and then.

I've seen lahore and karachi airport pictures, I think the author purely exaggarted them or may be he never been to any of the western or say S'pore airport.

We dont take these reports to heart coz we know the political climate which made them write these reports.

Hindustan Times just published it as their column, its not a news piece. Every tom, dick and harry write columns in major news papers to articulate their political leanings and views, it doesnt mean that its the truth.

Honestly tell me, do you think Lahore or Karachi airports can be compared with KLIA or CHANGI ??

And this guy is thanking Mushraff. Its becoz of previous military generals democratic institutions are in shambles in Pakistan. If these generals didnt byepass the civilian govts for long, these institutions wudve produced finest managers, so that you dont need to handpick civilian people from out of nowhere to run a country.

Jay
08 Mar 04,, 22:17
Meanwhile ponder this one, it was written by a lahore based columnist in The News...

The sight of Indian actress Urmilla on the rooftops of the old city of Lahore is a sight for sore eyes any time of the day. This week another 270 delegates from India among which are Naseeruddin Shah and Shabana Azmi, are expected to cross over into Pakistan. As both countries take a series of steps, gingerly to start with, there is just that little light at the end of the dark and endless tunnel that has held us "prisoners of our own device" — as The Eagles put it in the famous number Hotel California. Will these measures lead to peace is a question for which even Tauqir Zia has no answers. All we can do is hope, pray and contribute in whatever way we can to normalise relations and bury the many hatchets that we have brandished for the last half-century.

Travelling last week on the Wazirabad-Sambrial road towards Sialkot, the potholes and bumps on that narrow ribbon strip road began to revive memories of long forgotten journeys made on that same road. I could have, after a few violent and rib-shaking miles, sworn these holes and craters were the same when one was in Kindergarten. Nothing seemed to have changed except that the dust was thicker, the pollution dismal and the people in numbers too large to comprehend. Perhaps in most of India the situation is not very much different and our much-touted smirking observations that India has huge problems might have given us years of self-induced smugness, but things across the divide are changing at a speed that baffles the mind. Some years ago, an Indian said to a Pakistani, "It is true we are both in the gutter. The difference is, we are looking at the stars. You are looking at the gutter."

Many of us associate India’s new progress with its IT revolution and it is partly true. Indian companies like Moser-Baer located in an equally unknown Noida are now the world’s third largest optical media manufacturer and the lowest-cost producer of CD-Recorders. Exports? Only Rs 1,000 crore — Indian rupees I might add. This firm sells data-storage products to seven of the world’s top 10 CD-R producers. There is another unknown. Tandon Electronics. Its hardware exports are Rs 4,000 crore.

There is more depressing data, all of it quite true and impartial. 15 of the world’s major automobile makers are obtaining components from Indian companies. This business fetched India $375 million last year and in 2003 the number will be $1.5 billion. In half a decade, they will reach $15 billion. Hero Honda with 17 lakh motorcycles a year is now the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world. The prestigious UK automaker, Rover is marketing 1 lakh Indica cars made by Tata in Europe, under, wait a minute, its own name. Bharat Forge has the world’s largest single-location forging facility. It produces 1.2 lakh tonnes per annum and its clients include Honda, Toyota and Volvo among others. Asian Paints now owns 22 production facilities over 5 continents and is the market leader in 11 of these countries. Hindustan Inks has the world’s largest single stream fully integrated ink plant of 1-lakh tones per annum capacity and 100% owned subsidiaries in USA and Austria. Essel Propack is the world’s largest laminated tube manufacturer with presence in 11 countries and a global marketing share of 25% already. Ford has just presented its Gold World Excellence Award to India’s Cooper Tyres. Other industries are winning equally prestigious awards all the time. While on cars, Aston Martin has contracted prototyping its latest luxury sports car to an Indian-based designer and is set to produce the cheapest Aston Martin ever. Suzuki, which makes Maruti in India has decided to make India its manufacturing, export and research hub outside Japan. Hyundai India is set to become the global small car hub for the Korean giant and will produce 25,000 Santros to start with. By 2010 it is set to supply half a million cars to Hyundai Korea. HMI and Ford India are leaping ahead, posting astonishing results in the global markets from Brazil to China.

The Indian pharmaceutical industry is blazing ahead too. At $6.5 billion and growing at 8-10% annually, it is the 4th largest pharmaceutical industry in the world. Its exports are over $2 billion. India is among the top five bulk drug makers and at home, the local industry has edged out the MNCs whose share of 75% in the market is down to 35%. Trade of medicinal plants has crossed Rs 4,000 crore already.

As for technology, India is among the three countries that have built supercomputers on their own. The other two are USA and Japan. Not a bad club to be in, is it? India is among six countries that launch satellites and do so even for Germany and Belgium. India’s INSAT is among the world’s largest domestic satellite communication systems. Here are more depressing facts. India is one of the world’s largest diamond cutting and polishing centres. About 9 out of 10 stones sold anywhere in the world, pass through India. With China, India’s arch enemy, trade has grown by 104% in the past year and in the first 5 months of 2003, India has amassed a surplus in trade close to half a million dollars. In the recession-hit West, Indian exports are up by 19% this year and the country’s foreign exchange reserves stand at an all-time high of $82 billion. India is dishing out aid to 11 countries, pre-paying their debt and loaned IMF $300 million!! And since we think banning fashion shows is the way ahead, it might be interesting to know that Wal-Mart sources $1 billion worth of goods from India — half its apparel, GAP about $600 million and Hilfiger $100 million.

These success stories are not propaganda and haven’t happened overnight or by good fortune. The Indians have the same bureaucracy and many of the politicians simply play politics, the infrastructure creaks and poverty abounds, corruption flourishes and there are huge pockets of inefficiency and walls that block meaningful progress. Sure, it has an army that is not bursting with power-grabbing and subjugating its people every few years, but India’s success can no longer be denied and the gap between us and them grows wider by, if I may use my childhood idiom, leaps and bounds. What makes them tick? The answers are not simple and require great space and analysis by minds far superior to that of a weekly hack, but Cost and Brains are two factors. Add to that, a determination to rise above what faces you everyday, a vision of the stars as the man said. India provides IT services at one-tenth the price. No wonder more and more companies are basing their operations in India. An Indian MBA costs $5,000. An American MBA $120,000. Development of an automobile in the US costs $1 billion. In India, less than half. A cataract operation costs $1500 in the US. In India, $12. Bypass in the US anywhere up to Rs 6 lakhs. In India, it is Rs 40,000. Over 70 MNCs have set up R&D facilities in India in the past five years. 100 of the Fortune 500 are now present in India vs 33 in China. Intel’s Indian staff strength has gone up from 10 to 1,000 in four years. GE with a $60 million invested in India employs 1,600 researchers, while it has only 100 in China. With better systems comes efficiency. The turnaround time in Indian ports is down to 4 days from 10 and its telecom infrastructure in 1999 provided a bandwidth of 155 Mbps. Today, it is 75,000 times more and with fibre optic networks in 300 cities, it will change the face of business. Mobile phones are growing by about 1.5 million a month. Long distance rates are down by two-thirds in five years and by 80% for data transmission. The facts go on and on.

So what are the answers? They lie in the way we look at things, our discourse, our vision, our ability to look ahead and our desire to genuinely put our country on the right road. The people of the subcontinent are naturally talented and bright. When will we unleash the great potential of our people that lies dormant, crushed by the forces of evil that stop our progress for their personal agendas?

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/dec2003-daily/14-12-2003/oped/o1.htm

So do you think we'll rejoice on looking at this news piece saying that finally we reached our potential??

visioninthedark
09 Mar 04,, 16:29
Originally posted by Jay
Meanwhile ponder this one, it was written by a lahore based columnist in The News...

The sight of Indian actress Urmilla on the rooftops of the old city of Lahore is a sight for sore eyes any time of the day. This week another 270 delegates from India among which are Naseeruddin Shah and Shabana Azmi, are expected to cross over into Pakistan. As both countries take a series of steps, gingerly to start with, there is just that little light at the end of the dark and endless tunnel that has held us "prisoners of our own device" — as The Eagles put it in the famous number Hotel California. Will these measures lead to peace is a question for which even Tauqir Zia has no answers. All we can do is hope, pray and contribute in whatever way we can to normalise relations and bury the many hatchets that we have brandished for the last half-century.

Travelling last week on the Wazirabad-Sambrial road towards Sialkot, the potholes and bumps on that narrow ribbon strip road began to revive memories of long forgotten journeys made on that same road. I could have, after a few violent and rib-shaking miles, sworn these holes and craters were the same when one was in Kindergarten. Nothing seemed to have changed except that the dust was thicker, the pollution dismal and the people in numbers too large to comprehend. Perhaps in most of India the situation is not very much different and our much-touted smirking observations that India has huge problems might have given us years of self-induced smugness, but things across the divide are changing at a speed that baffles the mind. Some years ago, an Indian said to a Pakistani, "It is true we are both in the gutter. The difference is, we are looking at the stars. You are looking at the gutter."

Many of us associate India’s new progress with its IT revolution and it is partly true. Indian companies like Moser-Baer located in an equally unknown Noida are now the world’s third largest optical media manufacturer and the lowest-cost producer of CD-Recorders. Exports? Only Rs 1,000 crore — Indian rupees I might add. This firm sells data-storage products to seven of the world’s top 10 CD-R producers. There is another unknown. Tandon Electronics. Its hardware exports are Rs 4,000 crore.

There is more depressing data, all of it quite true and impartial. 15 of the world’s major automobile makers are obtaining components from Indian companies. This business fetched India $375 million last year and in 2003 the number will be $1.5 billion. In half a decade, they will reach $15 billion. Hero Honda with 17 lakh motorcycles a year is now the largest motorcycle manufacturer in the world. The prestigious UK automaker, Rover is marketing 1 lakh Indica cars made by Tata in Europe, under, wait a minute, its own name. Bharat Forge has the world’s largest single-location forging facility. It produces 1.2 lakh tonnes per annum and its clients include Honda, Toyota and Volvo among others. Asian Paints now owns 22 production facilities over 5 continents and is the market leader in 11 of these countries. Hindustan Inks has the world’s largest single stream fully integrated ink plant of 1-lakh tones per annum capacity and 100% owned subsidiaries in USA and Austria. Essel Propack is the world’s largest laminated tube manufacturer with presence in 11 countries and a global marketing share of 25% already. Ford has just presented its Gold World Excellence Award to India’s Cooper Tyres. Other industries are winning equally prestigious awards all the time. While on cars, Aston Martin has contracted prototyping its latest luxury sports car to an Indian-based designer and is set to produce the cheapest Aston Martin ever. Suzuki, which makes Maruti in India has decided to make India its manufacturing, export and research hub outside Japan. Hyundai India is set to become the global small car hub for the Korean giant and will produce 25,000 Santros to start with. By 2010 it is set to supply half a million cars to Hyundai Korea. HMI and Ford India are leaping ahead, posting astonishing results in the global markets from Brazil to China.

The Indian pharmaceutical industry is blazing ahead too. At $6.5 billion and growing at 8-10% annually, it is the 4th largest pharmaceutical industry in the world. Its exports are over $2 billion. India is among the top five bulk drug makers and at home, the local industry has edged out the MNCs whose share of 75% in the market is down to 35%. Trade of medicinal plants has crossed Rs 4,000 crore already.

As for technology, India is among the three countries that have built supercomputers on their own. The other two are USA and Japan. Not a bad club to be in, is it? India is among six countries that launch satellites and do so even for Germany and Belgium. India’s INSAT is among the world’s largest domestic satellite communication systems. Here are more depressing facts. India is one of the world’s largest diamond cutting and polishing centres. About 9 out of 10 stones sold anywhere in the world, pass through India. With China, India’s arch enemy, trade has grown by 104% in the past year and in the first 5 months of 2003, India has amassed a surplus in trade close to half a million dollars. In the recession-hit West, Indian exports are up by 19% this year and the country’s foreign exchange reserves stand at an all-time high of $82 billion. India is dishing out aid to 11 countries, pre-paying their debt and loaned IMF $300 million!! And since we think banning fashion shows is the way ahead, it might be interesting to know that Wal-Mart sources $1 billion worth of goods from India — half its apparel, GAP about $600 million and Hilfiger $100 million.

These success stories are not propaganda and haven’t happened overnight or by good fortune. The Indians have the same bureaucracy and many of the politicians simply play politics, the infrastructure creaks and poverty abounds, corruption flourishes and there are huge pockets of inefficiency and walls that block meaningful progress. Sure, it has an army that is not bursting with power-grabbing and subjugating its people every few years, but India’s success can no longer be denied and the gap between us and them grows wider by, if I may use my childhood idiom, leaps and bounds. What makes them tick? The answers are not simple and require great space and analysis by minds far superior to that of a weekly hack, but Cost and Brains are two factors. Add to that, a determination to rise above what faces you everyday, a vision of the stars as the man said. India provides IT services at one-tenth the price. No wonder more and more companies are basing their operations in India. An Indian MBA costs $5,000. An American MBA $120,000. Development of an automobile in the US costs $1 billion. In India, less than half. A cataract operation costs $1500 in the US. In India, $12. Bypass in the US anywhere up to Rs 6 lakhs. In India, it is Rs 40,000. Over 70 MNCs have set up R&D facilities in India in the past five years. 100 of the Fortune 500 are now present in India vs 33 in China. Intel’s Indian staff strength has gone up from 10 to 1,000 in four years. GE with a $60 million invested in India employs 1,600 researchers, while it has only 100 in China. With better systems comes efficiency. The turnaround time in Indian ports is down to 4 days from 10 and its telecom infrastructure in 1999 provided a bandwidth of 155 Mbps. Today, it is 75,000 times more and with fibre optic networks in 300 cities, it will change the face of business. Mobile phones are growing by about 1.5 million a month. Long distance rates are down by two-thirds in five years and by 80% for data transmission. The facts go on and on.

So what are the answers? They lie in the way we look at things, our discourse, our vision, our ability to look ahead and our desire to genuinely put our country on the right road. The people of the subcontinent are naturally talented and bright. When will we unleash the great potential of our people that lies dormant, crushed by the forces of evil that stop our progress for their personal agendas?

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/dec2003-daily/14-12-2003/oped/o1.htm

So do you think we'll rejoice on looking at this news piece saying that finally we reached our potential??

Jay;

Thank you very much for proving to all the readers that Pakistan has one of the most free and dynamic local press and media in Asia if not in the world!

Thank You!

Jay
10 Mar 04,, 06:08
Too bad you dont have a democratic political system. Just free press would do no good for a common poor man in Karachi. He cannot change the corrupt policy makers, let alone disguised military generals. So in essence this free press newspaper is worth to be in his toilet, thats the only place I can think of.

visioninthedark
10 Mar 04,, 15:51
A free press is the essence of a democratic culture and society!

As a people; Pakistanis have a culture of freedom!

As regards democracy; it exists in SUBSTANCE rather than FORM alone ... as was the case previously!

Policy makers are NOT corrupt ... generals are NOT disguised ... please don't judge us using experiences in other countries that may have shaped your mentality!

We are DIFFERENT ... I think you get me!

Ray
16 Mar 04,, 00:50
A culture of freedom, which is prevalent in a democracy is but a mirage if it is not allowed to be practised.

The recent election in Iran would be stated by the Iranian theologists (who can veto any decision and where the reformists candidates were not allowed to stand for election) as a proof of their vibrant democracy. But is that democracy? The theologists feel that they have a culture of tolerance and freedom. Can the latest Iranian election be acccepted to be so?

There is, in my humble opinion, a lot of difference between desire and reality.

Jay
16 Mar 04,, 06:12
Originally posted by visioninthedark
Policy makers are NOT corrupt ... generals are NOT disguised ... please don't judge us using experiences in other countries that may have shaped your mentality!

We are DIFFERENT ... I think you get me!
Benazir Bhutto, Nawaz Sheriff both were convicted for corruption.

Gen.Zia Ul Haq and Gen.Musharaff military men disguised as civil rulers, they dismissed the democratic govts and assumed charge as Predident of Pakistan wearing their service Uniform.

Aryan
02 May 04,, 08:38
THe common poor man in Karachi has pretty much the same rights as any other country, bearing in mind he has to share it with 150 million other people. He has the right to vote for a party he agrees with, and if any of the main political parties are not his cup of tea, then he may exercise his right form form a political party.
Apart from this, he has the democratic freedom in any way he wishes, just so long as it does not intefere with the rights of another individual.

Bhutto and her husband were found guilty of corruption in Pakistani and Swiss courts I dont think anyone here will disagree that she was

Okay sure, Pres. Musharraf is not democratically elected, but neither is the Queen, Musharraf holds similar powers to the queen, ie the right to dissolve parliament. now would we call Britain a dictatorship? The makeup of both houses in Pakistan were from the results of elections validated by the UN and America. I agree there are flaws in Pakistani democracy, but hell show me where its implemented

ssgpk
02 May 04,, 14:17
Cloth is cheaper in Pakistan?? you ought to be kidding. I dont see any big apparel house in Pakistan exporting goods.

Electronics may be cheap...thanks to the porous border with China. But if Pakistan wants to be an active trading member with WTO they have to cut down every illegal trade.

Even though this article says women in Pakistan have all the rights, we still hear those honour killings in Pakistan. Not to mention that MMA ruling state which is tearing down all the posters and advertisements which portray women.

You have good airports, agreed.but how many international carriers disembark in Pakistan??

Well, other than that i'd defintely say Pakistan has defintely improved over the years.

Many international carriers serve Karachi; it's the gateway between Asia and the Middle East!

Aero Asia:
Tel : 45791190

Aeroflot:
Tel : 519192 , 512838

African Airlines:
Tel: 4554245+Fax

Air China:
Tel : 4542559 - Fax: 4547071

Air France:
Tel : 5681071-5, Fax: 5684815

Air Lanka:
Tel : 5680382 , 5678286-Fax: 5675863

Biman Bangladesh Airlines:
Tel : 5662008-Fax: 5662008

PIAC:
Tel : 45794769 , 4578700

Bhoja Air:
Tel : 45791037-41 , 4574494

British Airways:
Tel : 051-564702 , 565413-Fax: 051-563672

Egypt Air:
Tel: 5689605 , 5661125 , 5678066-Fax: 5688790

Cathay Pacific:
Tel: 5660391

Emirates Airllines:
Tel: 5684500-Fax 5684860

Ethiopian Airlines:
Tel: 5661713 , 5687301-Fax 5661715

Qatar Airways:
Tel:5687804-Fax: 5683508

Gulf Air:
Tel: 5682265 , 5678270-Fax: 5685643

Iran Air:
Tel: 516293 , 5678274-Fax: 5684055

Indian Airlines:
Tel: 5682035 , 5682034-Fax: 5692188

Royal Jordanian Airlines:
Tel: 5660440-Fax: 5682026

Kenya Airways:
Tel: 5683272-Fax: 5680478

KLM Royal Dutch Airlines:
Tel: 568 9211-Fax: 5681132

Korean Air:
Tel: 5662465-Fax: 4572135

Kuwait Airways:
Tel: 5683272-Fax: 5680478

Lufthansa German Airlines:
Tel: 4571081/4571096/4571283 -Fax: 4570975

Malaysian Airlines:
Tel: 5682629-Fax: 5682195

Oman Airways:
Tel: 5689700 , 5689642-Fax: 565092

Safe Air: Tel:
45791285 , 5879057

Saudi Arabian Airlines:
Tel: 568213 , 5682525-Fax: 5688872

Shaheen Air:
Tel: 4591185-1252 , 111-808080

Swiss Air: Tel:
5682307 , 5675344-Fax: 5681510

Syrian Arabian Airlines:
Tel: 5682827 , 5684037-Fax: 5685829

Thai Airways International:
Tel: 5660156/58/59-Fax: 5660684

Turkish Airlines:
Tel: 5670069-Fax: 5681513

Turkmenistan Airlines:
Tel: 513468 , 513941-Fax: 5678862

Uzbekistan Airways:
Tel: 5872493-Fax: 5871101

Xin Jiang Airlines of China:
Tel: 051-273446 , 273447 Fax: 051-273448

Yemen Airways:
Tel: 514776-Fax: 5684234

Singapore Airlines:
Tel: 5686198 , 5683695-Fax: 5683695

ssgpk
02 May 04,, 14:25
Too bad you dont have a democratic political system. Just free press would do no good for a common poor man in Karachi. He cannot change the corrupt policy makers, let alone disguised military generals. So in essence this free press newspaper is worth to be in his toilet, thats the only place I can think of.

You talk like this corruption dosen't exist in India; buddy both our countries are suffering from this if you haven't already noticed!

Secondly if you haven't read this article it says 86% of Pakistanis support Musharraf and his views. By the way the study was done by a Washington Based Group so don't bother replying by saying "This is Pakistani Propaganda" cause it ain't!

Seriously what are you trying to prove?

ssgpk
02 May 04,, 14:27
You talk like this corruption dosen't exist in India; buddy both our countries are suffering from this if you haven't already noticed!

Secondly if you haven't read this article it says 86% of Pakistanis support Musharraf and his views. By the way the study was done by a Washington Based Group sp don't bother replying by saying "This is Pakistani Propaganda" cause it ain't!

Seriously what are you trying to prove?

86% of Pakistanis Like Musharraf
By Our Correspondent


WASHINGTON, March 18: A vast majority of Pakistanis, about 86 per cent, rates President Pervez Musharraf favourably, says a survey by a major American organization.

The report by the Washington-based Pew Research Center also says that 60 per cent Pakistanis view President Musharraf "very favourably." This is "by far the highest rating of any leader in the survey," says poll director Andrew Kohut. "Pakistanis expressed highly favourable opinions of their president."

The Pew Research Center is a non-profit and non-governmental organization, which specializes in opinion surveys. Its reports are widely respected in Washington's academic circles.

The researchers surveyed public opinions in nine countries, asking a randomly selected group of people questions on various subjects, ranging from the war in Iraq to their opinion about their own leaders and about other major US allies in the war on terror.

http://www.dawn.com/2004/03/19/top4.htm

The survey says that most Europeans had no views about Gen Musharraf and a third or more in each of the nine countries except Pakistan gave no opinion. Views of President Musharraf were more positive than negative in Turkey, and were about evenly divided in Britain, the United States, Russia, and Jordan. Negative opinion of Gen Musharraf was strong in France, Germany and Morocco.

Majorities in every country surveyed except the United States had an unfavourable opinion of President Bush, with negative ratings ranging from 57 per cent in Britain to 85 per cent in both France and Germany.

Outside the United States, the support for Mr Bush is the highest in Britain, 39 per cent. Six-in-ten have an unfavourable view of Mr Bush in Russia, and two-thirds - 67 per cent - feel this way in Turkey.

Jay
02 May 04,, 19:30
heh....just copying all the addresses from Pak Aviation is not gonna serve the purpose...just need to read more current affairs...

KLM to fly to Pakistan in June

KARACHI: Foreign airlines, especially from Europe, are again considering returning to Pakistan as the regional security situation has improved, aviation sources said.

The most notable move was from KLM of The Netherlands, they said and added the first landing of the Dutch flagship carrier was expected in June.

Besides, Air France, Lufthansa and Singapore Airlines are also mulling over plans to start flights to and from Pakistan.

Al-Italia has already re-started operations for Pakistan, though at a very low frequency.

Aviation experts have welcomed the move by the foreign airlines, terming it a good sign.

Most of these airlines had shut their operations after the 9/11 incident. Last year, Sri Lanka Airlines and British Airways resumed operations for Pakistan.

After September 11, Pakistani airports, specially Karachi, turned into regional airports as all the international airlines except from the region stopped their operations.

"Now, the situation is improving gradually. It is high time that Pakistan’s government should announce incentives for the airlines and passengers to attract them," Khurshid A Khan, an aviation expert suggested.

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/mar2004-daily/05-03-2004/business/b4.htm

(Note the article's date, and yeah its not Indian propoganda)

Jay
02 May 04,, 19:38
You talk like this corruption dosen't exist in India; buddy both our countries are suffering from this if you haven't already noticed!

Secondly if you haven't read this article it says 86% of Pakistanis support Musharraf and his views. By the way the study was done by a Washington Based Group so don't bother replying by saying "This is Pakistani Propaganda" cause it ain't!

Seriously what are you trying to prove?

Read all the posts before jumping in to a conclusion, Read visions's statement where he said free press is the essence of democracy. And when I say your back is not clean dont point my back in retrospect. You have a problem, agree it instead of trying to blame/compare with others.

When you have a dictator ruling your country free press is not gonna give you any thing. Harp all you want in your papers, the dictator wudnt care less and will do his own stuff.

I could care less, whether its washington based or Mars based. If 86% of people supports Mushraff, he cudve conducted elections and get democratically elected. What or who is he scared of? why does a populist leader (I call him so coz 86% of people support him) shud have his battle fatigues on? Military and Generals are for fighting external security threats. You have police, para military, district and state administration and politicians above all to take care of your internal needs.

I'm not trying to prove something paramount, it aint rocket science, It aint that hard to understand, follow what ever you want,choose who ever you want, its your right, Mushraff is not the first Army general to be Pakistan's CEO and certainly he's not the last, you have supported people like him in last 50 odd years, but just dont call it as a populist democracy, its just sugar coated autocracy.

So now what are you trying to prove here ??

and yeah lollywood + hollywood = bollywood, and thats why 100's of movies are released in Lahore, and Indians are hell bent to pirate those movies in to India and all our kids listen to Pakistani music all the time trying to imitate them :tongue:

Jay
02 May 04,, 21:24
THe common poor man in Karachi has pretty much the same rights as any other country, bearing in mind he has to share it with 150 million other people. He has the right to vote for a party he agrees with, and if any of the main political parties are not his cup of tea, then he may exercise his right form form a political party.
Apart from this, he has the democratic freedom in any way he wishes, just so long as it does not intefere with the rights of another individual.
did the common man from Karachi elected Musharaff? or atleast did the elected representatives indirectly elected Mushraff?


Bhutto and her husband were found guilty of corruption in Pakistani and Swiss courts I dont think anyone here will disagree that she was
but how about making deal with them and allowing them not to enter in to Pakistan?? How judicial is that?? If they are really wanted, cant you extradite them..hell even a 2 yr old knows where these guys are....prove them guilty (which you already did) and then jail them.


Okay sure, Pres. Musharraf is not democratically elected, but neither is the Queen, Musharraf holds similar powers to the queen, ie the right to dissolve parliament. now would we call Britain a dictatorship? The makeup of both houses in Pakistan were from the results of elections validated by the UN and America. I agree there are flaws in Pakistani democracy, but hell show me where its implemented
Britian was a monarchy and all the monarchail powers are in their constitution ratified by people or elected representatives of people. Does Pakistani constitution have a provision where a military general can depose a parliment, and then announce himself as Pakistan's ruler? If you have it in your constitution ratified, then its perfectly allright. Who knows Mushraff will even add that in your constitution, like the way they passed this NSA bill, in record 3 minutes. :biggrin:

Aryan
02 May 04,, 21:56
did the common man from Karachi elected Musharaff? or atleast did the elected representatives indirectly elected Mushraff?


You didn't read my whole post


but how about making deal with them and allowing them not to enter in to Pakistan?? How judicial is that?? If they are really wanted, cant you extradite them..hell even a 2 yr old knows where these guys are....prove them guilty (which you already did) and then jail them.

I'm not entirely sure what you are implying. Bhutto's exile was self imposed, her husband is currently under incaceration. Extraditing her is difficult considering no formal extradition treaty has been signed between Britain and Pakistan. Watch this space though...
Property owned by Bhutto she could not account for was seized by British baliffs and transferred to the Pakistani government who subsquently auctioned them.



Britian was a monarchy and all the monarchail powers are in their constitution ratified by people or elected representatives of people. Does Pakistani constitution have a provision where a military general can depose a parliment, and then announce himself as Pakistan's ruler? If you have it in your constitution ratified, then its perfectly allright. Who knows Mushraff will even add that in your constitution, like the way they passed this NSA bill, in record 3 minutes. :biggrin:

Wrong. Firstly Britain has no constitution, and secondly the Queen never had to seek approval for her coronation. The constitution adapted by Pres. Musharraf was a triumph for Pakistani democracy; a third of national assembly seats are reserved for women, seats reserved for Christians and minorities have also been increased, and assembly members must at least have a college degree to be seated. It was passed under both houses and approved by the supreme court. Whats wrong with the way we passed the NSA bill? The opposition made a choice to boycott standings, and their absence coincided with a ratification. Don't like it, don't strike. Same as when the Soviets boycotted security council meeting on Korea :)

Jay
02 May 04,, 22:21
You didn't read my whole post....
I didnt see any answer to my question in your original post...I take that you are agreeing that Mushraff is not elected by the people.


I'm not entirely sure what you are implying.
Who exiled Nawaz and where is he now??


Firstly Britain has no constitution
Wrong, Britain does not have a "written" constitution like America, India or Pakistan...it doesnt mean that they dont have one. Their constitution is much based on
* Statutes such as the Magna Carta of 1215 and the Act of Settlement of 1701.
* Laws and Customs of Parliament; political conventions
* Case law; constitutional matters decided in a court of law
* Walter Bagehot and A.V Dice reviews on constitution

Also Britain is a constitutional monarchy while Pakistan is called Islamic Republic of Pakistan. You do know what "republic" really means...right??

In Britain, the Royalty's assent is needed even if you secure a majority in the house of commons. You do know what kinda political system Britain follows, how the reps for House of Lords are elected. Since Pakistan has a written constitution, why dont you post some excerpts on how a President is elected in Pakistan. Then we'll talk about UK and Pakistan, whats common and whats not. In reality Pakistan and Britain has nothing in common just the words democrazy and parliment are just copied over.



"I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God."

The oath that the representatives of the British people are required to swear if they are to take their seats in the legislature"
Do the MP's in Pakistan take an oath demostrationg their support to Musharaff??

Aryan
02 May 04,, 22:49
Statutes such as the Magna Carta of 1215 and the Act of Settlement of 1701.
* Laws and Customs of Parliament; political conventions
* Case law; constitutional matters decided in a court of law
* Walter Bagehot and A.V Dice reviews on constitution

Medievil decrees such as the Magna Carta do not constitute a constitution that requires ratification and the likes. Britain has laws and acts, but no actual constitution. An unwritten constitution? Its not refered to as such in British courts.

Who exiled Nawaz and where is he now??

Sharif was found guilty of endangering the lives of 150+ Pakistani citizens as well as serving COAS, a deal was made to exile him and those politically close to him to Saudi Arabia.

Also Britain is a constitutional monarchy while Pakistan is called Islamic Republic of Pakistan. You do know what "republic" really means...right??

You misunderstand my point. I'm not asserting Pakistan is a monarchy, or Musharraf is a king, just as Britain can have an unelected head of state and still be considered a successful democracy, so can Pakistan.

Jay
02 May 04,, 23:05
Medievil decrees such as the Magna Carta do not constitute a constitution that requires ratification and the likes. Britain has laws and acts, but no actual constitution. An unwritten constitution? Its not refered to as such in British courts.
Queen has the right to uphold the laws and acts, not to mention that the Queen is above all these judicial system. Queen assents the laws acts, remember Britain is not republic, it just follows a representative/liberal democracy, so its not a successful democracy, its a constitutional morachy. Even then, in last 300 years the queen never summarily dismissed a parliment elected by the people, thats exactly what Mushraff did in 2000.



Sharif was found guilty of endangering the lives of 150+ Pakistani citizens as well as serving COAS, a deal was made to exile him and those politically close to him to Saudi Arabia.
Exactly who gave the right to make deal? is he Pakistan's king?? who gave him the immunity?? Mushraff wanted to hold on to power undemocratically so he made a deal. Even Mushraff endangered the lives of 4000+ soldiers in Kargil, what did he get in return??




You misunderstand my point. I'm not asserting Pakistan is a monarchy, or Musharraf is a king, just as Britain can have an unelected head of state and still be considered a successful democracy, so can Pakistan.
No it cannot. You still dont understand the differences between PAkistan and Britain. Mushraff is unconstitutional and un-democratic and he'll remain so.

How can you compare a monarchy with a republic??

Aryan
02 May 04,, 23:39
Queen has the right to uphold the laws and acts, not to mention that the Queen is above all these judicial system. Queen assents the laws acts, remember Britain is not republic, it just follows a representative/liberal democracy, so its not a successful democracy, its a constitutional morachy.

Yep. :)


Exactly who gave the right to make deal? is he Pakistan's king?? who gave him the immunity?? Mushraff wanted to hold on to power undemocratically so he made a deal. Even Mushraff endangered the lives of 4000+ soldiers in Kargil, what did he get in return??

Lets not get side tracked here. Musharraf overthrew Sharif because he had very few other options. Plane was running low on fuel and Sharif was refusing landing rights. Now after the coup, where the previous head of the leading party is to be facing charges of treason and endangering the lives of 150+ civilians ( I don't recall the precise charges) isn't dissolving the parliament for reelections the logical thing to do?


No it cannot. You still dont understand the differences between PAkistan and Britain. Mushraff is unconstitutional and un-democratic and he'll remain so.

How can you compare a monarchy with a republic??

I'll turn the table, how can you say a monarchy is better than what we have in Pakistan/ I'll say for one Musharraf is far more popular in Pakistan than the queen in in Britain. Unconstitutional? On what basis?

Jay
02 May 04,, 23:58
Musharraf overthrew Sharif because he had very few other options. Plane was running low on fuel and Sharif was refusing landing rights.Now after the coup, where the previous head of the leading party is to be facing charges of treason and endangering the lives of 150+ civilians ( I don't recall the precise charges) isn't dissolving the parliament for reelections the logical thing to do?
There are no coups in a democratic country, so this situation will never arise. If at all something happens like endangerment of civilians, only the President of Pakistan has the right to dissolve the parliment, and thats why Mushraff announced himself as The P. President inturn has to appointed by the MP's, Mushraff was not. That was the big illogical step Mushraff did, he ruled/rules Pakistan in his military fatigues.



I'll turn the table, how can you say a monarchy is better than what we have in Pakistan/ I'll say for one Musharraf is far more popular in Pakistan than the queen in in Britain. Unconstitutional? On what basis?
Nope I never said monarchy is better. Ah! we are going in circles,
Unconstitutional - : not according or consistent with the constitution of a body politic (as a nation) (m-w.com)



Pakistani Constitution:
Part 3 - Then Federation of Pakistan
The President
41.
(1) There shall be a President of Pakistan who shall be the Head of State and shall represent the unity of the Republic.
(2) A person shall not be qualified for election as President unless he is a Muslim of not less than forty-five years of age and is qualified to be elected as member of the National Assembly.
[18] (3) The President to be elected after the expiration of the term specified in clause ( 7) shall be elected in accordance with the provisions of the Second Schedule by the members of an electoral college consisting of:

(a) the members of both Houses; and
(b) the members of the Provincial Assemblies.

(4) Election to the office of President shall be held not earlier than sixty days and not later than thirty days before the expiration of the term of the President in office;

Provided that, if the election cannot be held within the period aforesaid because the National Assembly is dissolved, it shall be held within thirty days of the general election to the Assembly .

(5) An election to fill a vacancy in the office of President shall be held not later than thirty days from the occurrence of the vacancy:

Provided that, if the election cannot be held within the period aforesaid because the National Assembly is dissolved, it shall be held within thirty days of the general election to the Assembly.

43.
(1) The President shall not hold any office of profit in the service of Pakistan or occupy any other position carrying the right to remuneration for the rendering of services.

(I didnt include LFO provisions, for obvious reasons)

Aryan
03 May 04,, 00:23
There are no coups in a democratic country, so this situation will never arise. If at all something happens like endangerment of civilians, only the President of Pakistan has the right to dissolve the parliment.

Correction, there are no coups in a perfect democratic society. Now sure Pakistan and Pakistani democracy is by no means perfect, but coups have taken place in a number of countries you and I would identify as democratic, Spain, Greece and Portugal to name a few. Sure there are areas we need to work on in Pakistani democracy, such as the Blasphemy and Prohibition laws, but lets not unfairly accuse Pakisatan of being undemocratic.


and thats why Mushraff announced himself as The P. President inturn has to appointed by the MP's, Mushraff was not. That was the big illogical step Mushraff did, he ruled/rules Pakistan in his military fatigues

Musharraf was awarded emergency presidential laws in 1999 by the Supreme Court of Pakistan, you must remember at this time Pakistan was undergoing a crisis, we were on the verge of defaulting on a IMF payment, had it not been for decisive action, no doubt we would have defaulted and experienced an Argentina-like situation.

A side note: the majority of Pakistani's would like to see Musharraf keep his uniform, he is a capable COAS, not to mention the international acclaim Presidential ability has won him.


(I didnt include LFO provisions, for obvious reasons)

Then you are foregoing the validity of you argument - you cannot claim a person to be unconstitutional aand then use an obsolete version of the constitution to justify this stance.

Jay
03 May 04,, 00:37
Democrazy means people electing one of them as their rulers. There aint no perfect or imperfect democracy. Mushraff, the current "ruler" of Pakistan is not elected this way and so its undemocratic. This is as simple as it gets.


Musharraf was awarded emergency presidential laws in 1999 by the Supreme Court of Pakistan, you must remember at this time Pakistan was undergoing a crisis, we were on the verge of defaulting on a IMF payment, had it not been for decisive action, no doubt we would have defaulted and experienced an Argentina-like situation.
So you mean to say that Pakistan didnt have a President when Kargil happened ?



Then you are foregoing the validity of you argument - you cannot claim a person to be unconstitutional aand then use an obsolete version of the constitution to justify this stance.
Its a perfect valid arguement! Mushraff was not elected to the position, when I treat his position as unconstitutional all the rules/laws passed by him are un-constitutional. There is no legitamacy for his rule and the rules/acts he passed.

Aryan
03 May 04,, 00:54
Democrazy means people electing one of them as their rulers. There aint no perfect or imperfect democracy. Mushraff, the current "ruler" of Pakistan is not elected this way and so its undemocratic. This is as simple as it gets.

Democracy is not just about elections, it is an ideology, elections is just one aspect of it. Freedom of expression, right to trial by a jury, a free press, etc, all make up what a democracy is.
In fact I'm surpised you have such little expectations of democracy, afterall, isn't India the worlds largest democracy :)


So you mean to say that Pakistan didnt have a President when Kargil happened ?


Coup took place after Kargil, but I don't quite know how you came to that conclusion from what I said


Its a perfect valid arguement! Mushraff was not elected to the position, when I treat his position as unconstitutional all the rules/laws passed by him are un-constitutional. There is no legitamacy for his rule and the rules/acts he passed.


Do you consider the verdit of the Supreme Court of Pakistan to be unconstitutional as well?

Jay
03 May 04,, 01:15
Freedom of expression, right to trial by a jury, a free press, etc, all make up what a democracy is.
Everything starts with your ruler. Your ruler enacts laws, appoints justices along with others who inturn gives you the right for impartial trial. So when thats in question, other institutions just fade away from oblivion. You know that Nawaz was to be punished for his political/economical crimes. He wudve been sentenced to some terms based on the evidences. But your ruler, made a shady deal, there by denying the impartial trial for people of Pakistan. Coz all his mis-appropriate wealth indirectly belong to people of Pakistan.So just by having free press, impartial trail WILL NOT uphold democrazy.

Coup took place after Kargil, but I don't quite know how you came to that conclusion from what I said
AFAIK coup took place wrt Kargil. Ok let me ask my question this way, when SC "appointed" Mushraff, didnt Pakistan have an elected President??

Do you consider the verdit of the Supreme Court of Pakistan to be unconstitutional as well?
Its still shady, constitution of Pakistan says that only the elected rep's from both the houses can appoint a President and He/she should not hold a position with in the administration and receive renumeration for his services. Mushraff fails to qualify in both the requirements.
So IMO I dont know whether SC's verdict is with in this jurisdication. If you know more info do eudcate me.

Jay
03 May 04,, 01:39
AFAIK the Supreme Cort of Pakistan didnt have any choice....

Mushraff was dismissed by Nawaz when he was in Sri Lanka. If you go by Pakistan's constitution, that was perfectly legal. Mushraff is still holding to that position.


From Voice of America...
Tuesday's coup came after months of growing tension
between General Pervez Musharraf and Prime Minister
Nawaz Sharif. Their relationship began to rapidly
deteriorate following Mr. Sharif's order to withdraw
Pakistan-backed forces fighting Indian troops in the
disputed region of Kashmir in July. Pakistan's
military viewed the order as a betrayal by the prime
minister.

Tuesday, while General Musharraf was in Sri Lanka on
official business, Prime Minister Sharif dismissed him
and named the head of Pakistan's intelligence service
as a replacement. Within an hour of the order --
while the general was airborne on his way back to
Pakistan -- troops swiftly moved into the capital
seizing government buildings and placing the prime
minister under arrest.
http://www.fas.org/news/pakistan/1999/991015-pak34.htm


Emergency was announced first by Nawaz. So the coup has nothing to do with it.

Do you consider the verdit of the Supreme Court of Pakistan to be unconstitutional as well?



Some excerpts from Provisional Constitution Order No. 1 of 1999 (Oct 15 1.00 AM)

In pursuance of Proclamation of the 14th day of October, 1999, and in exercise of all powers enabling him in that behalf, the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee and Chief of Army Staff and Chief Executive of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan under the Proclamation of Emergency of 14th day of October 1999 (hereinafter referred to as the Chief Executive) is pleased to make and promulgate the following Order:

2.
(1) Notwithstanding the abeyance of the provisions of the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, hereinafter referred to as the Constitution, Pakistan shall, subject to this Order and any other Orders made by the Chief Executive, be governed, as nearly as may be, in accordance with the Constitution.
(2) Subject as aforesaid, all courts in existence immediately before the commencement of this Order, shall continue to function and to exercise their respective powers and jurisdiction provided that the Supreme Court or High Courts and any other court shall not have the powers to make any order against the Chief Executive or any person exercising powers or jurisdiction under his authority;.

4.
(1) No Court, Tribunal or other authority shall call or permit to be called in question the proclamation of Emergency of 14th day of October, 1999 or any Order made in pursuance thereof.
(2) No judgment, decree, writ, order or process whatsoever shall be made or issued by any court or tribunal against the Chief Executive or any authority designated by the Chief Executive.
http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/post_12oct99/pco1_1999.orig.html

So can you tell me where Supreme Court of Pakistan awarded emergency laws to Mushy?? Mushy arm twisted your judiciary....

Jay
03 May 04,, 01:44
Supreme Court of Pakistan doesnt have any rights to appoint a President.

Not to mention that Mushraff fired elected President Muhammed Rafiq Tarar.


"After overthrowing the Nawaz Government, the military authorities did not retain Rafiq Tarar as the President till his full term of five years. He was removed by the Chief Executive General Pervez Musharraf on June 20, 2001, who himself took over the office of the President of Pakistan."
http://www.storyofpakistan.com/articletext.asp?artid=A116


Again based on Pakistan's constitution, these are the following steps needed to remove a President...



47.
(1) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Constitution, the President may, in accordance with the provisions of this Article, be removed from office on the ground of physical or mental incapacity or impeached on a charge of violating the Constitution or gross misconduct.

(2) Not less than one-half of the total membership of either House may give to the Speaker of the National Assembly or, as the case may be, the Chairman written notice of its intention to move a resolution for the removal of, or, as the case may be, to impeach, the President; and such noffce shall set out the particulars of his incapacity or of the charge against him.]

(3) If a notice under clause (2) is received by the Chairman, he shall transmit it forthwith to the Speaker.

(4) The Speaker shall, within three days of the receipt of a notice under clause (2) or clause (3), cause a copy of the notice to be transmitted to the President.

(5) The Speaker shall summon the two Houses to meet in a joint sitting not earlier than seven days and not later than fourteen days after the receipt of the notice by him.

(6) The joint sitting may investigate or cause to be investigated the ground or the charge upon which the notice is founded.

(7) The President shall have the right to appear and be represented during the investigation, if any, and before the joint sitting.

(8) If, after consideration of the result of the investigation, if any, a resolution is passed at the joint sitting by the votes of not less than two-thirds of the total membership of [23][Majlis-e-Shoora (Parliament)] declaring that the President is unfit to hold the office due to incapacity or is guilty of violating the Constitution or of gross misconduct, the President shall cease to hold office immediately on the passing of the resolution.

None of these were followed for Rafiq Tarar!!

visioninthedark
04 May 04,, 19:44
To Cut A Long Story Short;

All I See Is A Indian (Jay) Who Is Trying To Justify His Dislike Of Musharraf By Trying To Vindicate His Hypothesis That Musharraf Is A Dictator Ruling With An Iron Fist ....

The Fact That Nearly Every Pakistani Agrees And Approves Of Mushharaf ... Seems To Have Little To No Significance With Him ...

I Am Sure Musharraf Has A Higher Popularity Rating Than Either Pres. Bush Or Pm. Vajpie ...

Point Is .... Not Every Democracy Is An Exact Photocopy Of The British Parliamentary System ... We're Taking Out Time To Carve Out Our Own System ... Which Is Democratic .... And We Will Eventually Succeed ...

in the meanwhile ... we enjoy a lively free press ... a vibrant free society ... a culture of individualism .... and all the other necessary social components necessary for making a truly democratic set-up ....

in short ... we have a democratic CULTURE ... and there is no denying that ... unless you have never beeen to Pakistan or are Indian ...

Jay
04 May 04,, 21:28
All I See Is A Indian (Jay) Who Is Trying To Justify His Dislike Of Musharraf By Trying To Vindicate His Hypothesis That Musharraf Is A Dictator Ruling With An Iron Fist ....

I dislike Musharaff, not becoz he's a dictator, but he's a Pakistani military general who back stabbed us in Lahore. Big deal dude, I dont need to justify my dislike.

Mushraff is having an iron fist on Pakistan...it may be good or bad, fist is a fist and a dictator is a dictator. The only way that I know, a leader is based on people's choice is by getting elected democratically. Musharaff aint got elected. It is unconstitutional.

I'm not living in Pakistan but you do. So if you guys are happy for him I'm all for it. But my harp will still stay, Mushraff may be for the people but he aint got elected by the people, which makes him a dictator.

Aryan
27 May 04,, 21:26
Vision,

Do you know why Pakistan is looking up?

It is because an Indian born is leading the country i.e. Musharraf. Born and brought up in the Indian capital - Delhi.

Therefore, I wish Musharraf well.

Parochial? Maybe.:clap:

A Mohajir is smarter than home brewed one.

I wonder if you would use the same logic on India's new Pakistan-born leader, Manmohan Singh