PDA

View Full Version : Middle East without Israel?



mcdelroy
26 Sep 06,, 04:26
Terrorist statements have indicated that America's support of Israel is the prime reason terrorists focus on the U.S. Do you believe that were Israel not to exist, there would not be a Islamic terror problem? How about if the U.S. ceased supporting Israel?

Marc

Shek
26 Sep 06,, 04:33
Terrorist statements have indicated that America's support of Israel is the prime reason terrorists focus on the U.S. Do you believe that were Israel not to exist, there would not be a Islamic terror problem? How about if the U.S. ceased supporting Israel?

Marc

There would be no change to terrorist philosophy. The fact that we are infidels is the main source of their anger. Additionally, our support of apostate regimes (read - Egypt and Saudi) also breeds the contempt towards us. Even if we gave up that support as well (as well as the stability over world oil reserves), then they could set up a caliphate and try to expand their control into a global caliphate. The internal divisions within Islam would still pose a problem to that goal, but the end result is that Israel is not the source of the anger - only a rallying cry.

astralis
26 Sep 06,, 04:35
Do you believe that were Israel not to exist, there would not be a Islamic terror problem?

the roots of the islamic terror problem extend beyond israel, although certainly israel's existence plays a part.

i believe islamic terror would still exist, given that the root problems would still have remained, but probably not with the severity nor the focus we see today.

then again, predicting a counter-history is always fiendishly difficult, and is most likely inaccurate.


How about if the U.S. ceased supporting Israel?

that would be a bad sign of US weakness, to stop all of a sudden. however, i do think the level by which the US is influenced by the israeli lobbyists is an unhealthy one.

i think what would be a win-win situation would be to begin a slow shift regarding our aid to israel. from military support to economic support, just given the fact that israel has shown itself quite capable of handling whatever the other middle-eastern nations can throw at them. israel did just fine without massive US aid prior to the 70s. tie our support of israel to their dedication in following the roadmap. support the israeli moderates against their politically powerful religious right.

of course, this is all a pipe-dream, given K street.

mcdelroy
26 Sep 06,, 12:11
>....of course, this is all a pipe-dream, given K street.

K street? I'm not sure I understand this statement. Can you explain?

Marc

Shek
26 Sep 06,, 12:46
K street? I'm not sure I understand this statement. Can you explain?

Marc

K Street is where many of the lobbyists have their offices in DC.

BenRoethig
26 Sep 06,, 12:48
Terrorist statements have indicated that America's support of Israel is the prime reason terrorists focus on the U.S. Do you believe that were Israel not to exist, there would not be a Islamic terror problem? How about if the U.S. ceased supporting Israel?

Marc

Absolutely nothing. Isreal is their excuse. Their goal is a world wide islamic state starting with what they had at the their height. That means the balkans up to Vienna's door and Spain as well. If Isreal is conquered, they'll just become more bold. Kind of reminds me of the "if we let Hitler take the german lands, he'll stop there" question. They need to prove they can get along with non-Muslims, including Isreal. So far, they have not.

Major_Armstrong
26 Sep 06,, 13:03
To make things more complicated, Sunnis don't consider Shiites to be muslims, while Shiites claim to be muslims. Many Sunnis consider Shiites to be apostates which is punishable by death under Sharia law, but in reality are not completely subjected to genocide in most Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, for example. A lot of the fighting in Iraq is between Sunnis and Shiites. Also moderate muslims are usually battling the fundamentalists and extremists. Theoretically, Jews and Christians can live as dhimmis under Sharia law, but are often attacked and persecuted in Islamic countries, anyway. It varies from place to place. Before the war in Afganistan, the Taliban were active in their own genocide plans and maybe still are to some extent. I read something today about a female teacher being killed by them in Afganistan for teaching other women.


What do you think happened at this meeting?

Israeli Premier and Saudi Said to Hold Secret Meeting

JERUSALEM, Sept. 25 — An Israeli newspaper reported Monday that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert held a secret meeting about 10 days ago with a senior Saudi Arabian official to discuss issues that included Iran’s nuclear program and prospects for Israeli-Palestinian negotiations.

more here http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/26/world/middleeast/26mideast.html?ref=world

mcdelroy
26 Sep 06,, 15:02
I don’t think we can emphasize the importance of moderate Muslims enough. Moderate Muslims in the West need to become part of the solution. I am still waiting for Western moderate Muslims to denounce Jihad and begin teaching tolerance in mosques. Western moderate Muslims have been silent on the subject of Jihad which causes one to question their loyalties. What is Luis Farrakhan’s stance on this issue? Islam needs a leader to emerge and lead this effort. My fear is that increased intolerance and unwillingness to integrate into Western society amongst Muslims in the West, combined with Western open immigration policies make it likely we will see domestic grown terrorists. At the same time, in general it seems that western populations are not taking this threat seriously. Perhaps this is because westerners are very tolerant and want to believe that others are good at heart and tolerant as well.

Marc

Srirangan
26 Sep 06,, 17:25
Terrorist statements have indicated that America's support of Israel is the prime reason terrorists focus on the U.S. Do you believe that were Israel not to exist, there would not be a Islamic terror problem? How about if the U.S. ceased supporting Israel?

Marc
Nope. Terror would exist anyway. For example, look at Kashmir, Afghanistan, Persia, Chechnya. These regions aren't in the Middle East, yet Islam claims them and there is jehad (aka terror). Si?

highsea
26 Sep 06,, 17:48
...Si?Hey Sri, long time no see. How ya been my friend?

Just to add, the places you mentioned plus- Philipines, Indonesia, Morocco, Yemen, Algeria, and on and on and on....

The Arab States in the ME are the ones responsible for legitimizing terrorism as a tactic though- Munich Olympics, Achille Lauro, etc. Terrorism has existed throughout history, but it was Arafat and the PLA who really made it into what it is today, with the support of KSA, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Iraq.

Once legitimized, it became the standard tactic and spread throughout the rest of the world.

Srirangan
26 Sep 06,, 17:51
Been good, been good Highsea! :-)

If you could just seperate politics from Islam, kind of the seperation of church and state that took place in Europe in the Middle Ages; these so called 'leaders' of the Arab world won't find it so easy to get their foot soliders/mujahideen/fidayeens.

highsea
26 Sep 06,, 17:55
Agreed. I always thought Lebanon was a good model wrt their political system- if they could rid themselves of outside influence they could make peace with Israel and get along just fine.

Taking politics out of Islam is a tall order. It can only be accomplished in a secular State.

Parihaka
26 Sep 06,, 17:57
Been good, been good Highsea! :-)

If you could just seperate politics from Islam, kind of the seperation of church and state that took place in Europe in the Middle Ages; these so called 'leaders' of the Arab world won't find it so easy to get their foot soliders/mujahideen/fidayeens.It took Christendom 500 years to do that. I'm not holding my breath

Srirangan
26 Sep 06,, 17:58
Agreed. I always thought Lebanon was a good model wrt their political system- if they could rid themselves of outside influence they could make peace with Israel and get along just fine.

Taking politics out of Islam is a tall order. It can only be accomplished in a secular State.
Lebanese society was ideal, however the Govt out there is non existant. Future don't look bright either. :-/

astralis
26 Sep 06,, 21:30
srirangan,


Nope. Terror would exist anyway. For example, look at Kashmir, Afghanistan, Persia, Chechnya. These regions aren't in the Middle East, yet Islam claims them and there is jehad (aka terror). Si?

i agree with your main point, but as an aside, the conflicts you name above have just as much to do with nationalism as to do with islamic terror. in the cases of persia and chechnya, especially, nationalism preceded the idea of pan-islamism.

Srirangan
27 Sep 06,, 05:40
srirangan,



i agree with your main point, but as an aside, the conflicts you name above have just as much to do with nationalism as to do with islamic terror. in the cases of persia and chechnya, especially, nationalism preceded the idea of pan-islamism.
Sure, those issues would have a political aspect. But the terror is those regions is fuelled by Islam. Islam itself is a politicial ideology masked as a religion.