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brak
25 Sep 06,, 01:39
I am sure that most if not all WAB members have read this bestseller novel by Tom Clancy. While I found the book to be highly entertaining, it left me with doubts regarding the tactics used by the US and the Soviet Union. Some of the scenarios mentioned in the book seemed to be at odds with the operational doctrines of both the countries' armed forces.

I was wondering if some one could crtique the novel and lay out a realistic scenario of a war between the NATO -WARSAW Pact countries.

TopHatter
25 Sep 06,, 01:44
I was wondering if some one could crtique the novel and lay out a realistic scenario of a war between the NATO -WARSAW Pact countries.
Quite a good novel IMHO, very prescient.

From Wikipedia's entry:


Clancy plausibly suggests that munitions expenditures would be far higher than projected; that combat helicopters like the AH-64 Apache and the Mi-24 HIND are not nearly as survivable as projected; that the mobility granted by modern armor means that the Soviet doctrine of a massed thrust achieving a breakthrough of the enemy lines is a fiction—the enemy can withdraw and reform its lines too easily to break; also, modern air power can only dominate a battlefield in the absence of an opposing modern air force.

Clancy also correctly guessed that the United States operated a small number of stealth aircraft, whose existence was highly classified at the time the novel was written. However, the stealth fighters which appear in the novel are F-19s, not the F-117 Nighthawk of our world.

The 2003 invasion of Iraq (although far more of a mismatch than a mid-1980s NATO-Warsaw Pact conflict would have been) did provide some evidence for Clancy's hypothesis. The US Army’s Apaches proved more vulnerable to ground fire than had been predicted beforehand, and by the war’s end the majority of close air support was being delivered by heavily armored A-10 Thunderbolt II ground attack aircraft. Fittingly, Clancy identifies the A-10 as being a key weapon in his Red Storm Rising scenario. His predictions on the high rate of munitions expenditure also appears to have been borne out—even though the initial attack on Iraq was short, it drained U. S. arsenals to an alarming extent, forcing the Pentagon to undertake a crash program to rebuild stocks of smart bombs.


Red Storm Rising is basic literature at many military academies inside and outside the United States, as are several other books by Tom Clancy. It is also frequently referred to by military scientists and is widely regarded as being one of the most realistic scenarios of an East-West war.

Officer of Engineers
25 Sep 06,, 01:50
How the war came to an end, however, ... that really sucked.

TopHatter
25 Sep 06,, 01:55
How the war came to an end, however, ... that really sucked.

No it didn't. It gave Larry Bond a way to end practically every subsequent novel he wrote. :rolleyes:

It also gave Clancy a way to end Bear And The Dragon. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

brak
25 Sep 06,, 01:55
interesting read TH. Thanks. :)

Other than overestimating the capabilities of the a/c, the expenditure of weapons etc the one major thing that Tom Clancy is has gone wrong at IMHO is the operational doctrine. In the novel his depiction of the 2nd battle of Atlantic seems completely flawed to me. Soviet naval doctrine was, first and foremost, oriented around coastal defence unlike what he has stated in the novel. Same goes for the assumption that tact. nukes won't be used on the battlefield.

TopHatter
25 Sep 06,, 02:08
In the novel his depiction of the 2nd battle of Atlantic seems completely flawed to me. Soviet naval doctrine was, first and foremost, oriented around coastal defence unlike what he has stated in the novel.That was one of the points he was trying to make.

The Soviet Navy was supposed to be composed of "dullards" compared to their NATO counterparts.

Instead, the Northern Fleet seized the initiative and went on the offensive.

This was mostly due to the desire of keeping the NATO carrier groups away from the Soviet homeland, but also to ensure that Soviet submarines and naval aviation would be able to pounce on the Europe-bound convoys.

In essence, it was something of a warning: Underestimate your foe at your own peril.



Same goes for the assumption that tact. nukes won't be used on the battlefield.That could very well have turned out to be true.
Not too many generals would have been eager to unleash the nuclear genie.

Tactical nukes on the battlefield would have eventually escalated into city-busters being launched.

Officer of Engineers can tell you a lot more about the situation in Germany though, I'm merely speculating.

brak
25 Sep 06,, 02:17
That was one of the points he was trying to make.

The Soviet Navy was supposed to be composed of "dullards" compared to their NATO counterparts.

Instead, the Northern Fleet seized the initiative and went on the offensive.

This was mostly due to the desire of keeping the NATO carrier groups away from the Soviet homeland, but also to ensure that Soviet submarines and naval aviation would be able to pounce on the Europe-bound convoys.

In essence, it was something of a warning: Underestimate your foe at your own peril.
Agreed. :)


That could very well have turned out to be true.
Not too many generals would have been eager to unleash the nuclear genie.

Tactical nukes on the battlefield would have eventually escalated into city-busters being launched.

Officer of Engineers can tell you a lot more about the situation in Germany though, I'm merely speculating.
I am not sure about the US, but most Soviet general plans regarding a renewed land conflict on any scale in Europe specifically pointed to over 320 nuclear detonations over troop concentrations, military air bases, naval facilities and rail hubs on the first day. There were also plans to use Chemical weapons during the initial days of conflict. Apparently the Soviet delusion was that the situation could be stabilized at the level of 'tactical nuclear exchange'. The Soviets, too, did not believe that strategic nuclear weapons would be used. In this I believe they were badly mistaken - just like their NATO counterparts.

Officer of Engineers
25 Sep 06,, 02:54
I am not sure about the US, but most Soviet general plans regarding a renewed land conflict on any scale in Europe specifically pointed to over 320 nuclear detonations over troop concentrations, military air bases, naval facilities and rail hubs on the first day. There were also plans to use Chemical weapons during the initial days of conflict. Apparently the Soviet delusion was that the situation could be stabilized at the level of 'tactical nuclear exchange'. The Soviets, too, did not believe that strategic nuclear weapons would be used. In this I believe they were badly mistaken - just like their NATO counterparts.

Depends on which time period you're speaking of. NATO has the Parallel History Project in which old war dogs from both sides are now sitting down trying to match war plans.

What we do know that before 1982, the Warsaw Pact had plans on the offensive with the openning of over 162 nukes on the Czech Front alone. After 1982, however, the Warsaw Pact went on the defensive.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=1053

sappersgt
25 Sep 06,, 03:52
What we do know that before 1982, the Warsaw Pact had plans on the offensive with the openning of over 162 nukes on the Czech Front alone.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=1053

Talk about a strike in depth! What kind of density for targets were they expecting?:eek:

Officer of Engineers
25 Sep 06,, 04:07
This is the translation of the Czech war plan

“Approved” Single Copy

Supreme Commander

of the Armed Forces of the ČSSR

Antonín Novotný

1964

Plan of Actions of the Czechoslovak People’s Army for War Period

Map 1: 500,000, published 1963



1. Conclusions from the assessment of the enemyThe enemy could use up to 12 general military units on the Central European military theater for advancing in the area of the Czechoslovak Front from D1 to D 7-8.

-- The 2nd Army Corps of the FRG [Federal Republic of Germany] including: 4th and 10th mechanized divisions, 12th tank division, 1st airborne division and 1st mountain division,

-- the 7th Army Corps of the USA including: the 24th mechanized division and 4th armored tank division;

-- the 1st Army of France including: 3rd mechanized division, the 1st and 7th tank divisions, and up to two newly deployed units, including 6 launchers of tactical missiles, up to 130 theater launchers and artillery, and up to 2800 tanks.

Operations of the ground troops could be supported by part of the 40th Air Force, with up to 900 aircraft, including 250 bombers and up to 40 airborne missile launchers.

Judging by the composition of the group of NATO troops and our assessment of the exercises undertaken by the NATO command, one could anticipate the design of the enemy's actions with the following goals.

To disorganize the leadership of the state and to undermine mobilization of armed forces by surprise nuclear strikes against the main political and economic centers of the country.

To critically change the correlation of forces in its own favor by strikes against the troops, airfields and communication centers.

To destroy the border troops of the Czechoslovak People’s Army in border battles, and to destroy the main group of our troops in the Western and Central Czech Lands by building upon the initial attack.

To disrupt the arrival of strategic reserves in the regions of Krkonoše, Jeseníky, and Moravská Brána by nuclear strikes against targets deep in our territory and by sending airborne assault troops; to create conditions for a successful attainment of the goals of the operation.

Judging by the enemy's approximate operative design, the combat actions of both sides in the initial period of the war will have a character of forward contact battles.

The operative group of the enemy in the southern part of the FRG will force the NATO command to gradually engage a number of their units in the battle, which will create an opportunity for the Czechoslovak Front to defeat NATO forces unit by unit. At the same time, that would require building a powerful first echelon in the operative structure of the Front; and to achieve success it would require building up reserves that would be capable of mobilizing very quickly and move into the area of military action in a very short time.



2. Upon receiving special instructions from the Supreme Commander of the Unified Armed Forces, the Czechoslovak People’s Army will deploy to the Czechoslovak Front with the following tasks:

To be ready to start advancing toward Nuremberg, Stuttgart and Munich with part of forces immediately after the nuclear strike. Nuclear strike against the troops of the enemy should be targeted to the depth up to the line Würzburg, Erlangen, Regensburg, Landshut.

The immediate task is to defeat the main forces of the Central Group of the German Army in the southern part of the FRG, in cooperation with the [Soviet] 8th Guards Army of the 1st Western Front; by the end of the first day—reach the line Bayreuth, Regensburg, Passau; and by the end of the second day—move to the line Höchstadt, Schwabach, Ingolstadt, Mühldorf, and by the fourth day of the attack —reach the line Mosbach, Nürtingen, Memmingen, Kaufbeuren.

In the future, building upon the advance in the direction of Strasbourg, Epinal, Dijon, to finalize the defeat of the enemy in the territory of the FRG, to force a crossing of the river Rhine, and on the seventh or eighth day of the operation to take hold of the line Langres, Besançon.

Afterward develop the advance toward Lyon.

To have in the combat disposition of the Czechoslovak Front the following units:

-- the 1st and 4th Armies, 10th Air Army, 331st front missile brigade, 11th, 21st and the 31st mobile missile support base in the state of combat alert.

-- the reserve center of the Army, the 3rd, 18th, 26th, and 32nd mechanized rifle divisions, 14th and 17th tank divisions, 22nd airborne brigade, 205th antitank brigade, 303rd air defense division, 201st and 202nd air defense regiments with mobilization timetable from M1 to M3.

-- the formations, units and facilities of the support and service system.

The 57th Air Army, arriving on D1 from the Carpathian military district before the fifth or sixth day of the operation, will be operatively subordinated to the Czechoslovak Front. If Austria keeps its neutrality on the third day of the war, one mechanized rifle division of the Southern Group of Forces will arrive in the area of České Budějovice and join the Czechoslovak Front. The following forces will remain at the disposal of the Ministry of National Defense: the 7th air defense army, 24th mechanized rifle division and 16th tank division with readiness M20, reconnaissance units, and also units and facilities of the support and service system. Under favorable conditions two missile brigades and one mobile missile support base will arrive some time in advance in the territory of the ČSSR from the Carpathian military district:

-- 35th missile brigade—past Český Brod, past Říčany, Zásmuky,

-- 36th missile brigade – past Pacov, past Pelhřimov, past Humpolec,

-- 3486th mobile missile support base – woods 5 kilometers to the East of Světlá.

Formations and units of the Czechoslovak People’s Army, on permanent alert, upon the announcement of combat alarm should leave their permanent location in no more than 30 minutes, move to designated areas within 3 hours, and deploy there ready to carry out their combat tasks. Formations, units and headquarters that do not have set mobilization dates, leave their locations of permanent deployment and take up the identified areas of concentration in the time and in the order determined by the plan of mobilization and deployment. The following disposition of forces is possible in the area of operations of the Czechoslovak Front for the entire depth of the operation:

-- in divisions – 1.1 to 1.0

-- in tanks and mobile artillery launchers – 1.0 to 1.0

-- in artillery and mine-launchers – 1.0 to 1.0

-- in military aircraft – 1.1 to 1.0, all in favor of the Czechoslovak Front.

In the first massive nuclear strike by the troops of the Missile Forces of the Czechoslovak Front, the front aviation and long-range aviation added to the front must destroy the main group of troops of the first operations echelon of the 7th US Army, its means of nuclear attack, and the centers of command and control of the aviation.

During the development of the operation, the troops of the Missile Forces and aviation must destroy the approaching deep operative reserves, the newly discovered means of nuclear attack, and the enemy aviation.

Altogether the operation will require the use of 131 nuclear missiles and nuclear bombs; specifically 96 missiles and 35 nuclear bombs. The first nuclear strike will use 41 missiles and nuclear bombs. The immediate task will require using 29 missiles and nuclear bombs. The subsequent task could use 49 missiles and nuclear bombs. 12 missiles and nuclear bombs should remain in the reserve of the Front.

Building on the results of the first nuclear strike, the troops of the Front, in coordination with units of the 1st Western Front must destroy the main group of troops of the 7th US Army and the 1st French Army in cooperation with airborne assault troops, force the rivers Neckar and Rhine in crossing, and defeat the advancing deep strategic reserves of the enemy in advancing battle, and by D7-8 take control of the areas of Langres, Besançon, and Epinal.

Upon completion of the tasks of the operation the troops must be ready to develop further advances in the direction of Lyon.

The main strike should be concentrated in the direction of Nuremberg, Stuttgart, Strasbourg, Epinal, Dijon; part of the forces should be used on the direction of Straubing and Munich.

The operative structure of the troops of the Czechoslovak Front is to be in one echelon with separation of two tank and five mechanized rifle divisions for the reserve as they arrive and are deployed. The first echelon shall consist of the 1st and 4th armies and the 331st front missile brigade.

The reserve of the front includes: Headquarters of the 2nd Army (reserve), mechanized rifle division of the Southern Group of Forces by D3, 14th tank division by D3, 17th tank division by D4, 3rd mechanized rifle division by D3, 26th mechanized rifle division by D4, 18th mechanized rifle division by D5, and 32nd mechanized rifle division by D6.

Special reserves include: 22nd airborne brigade by D2, 103rd chemical warfare batallion by D2, 6th engineering brigade by D3, and 205th antitank artillery by D4.



3. On the right – the 8th Guards Army of the 1st Western Front advances in the direction of Suhl, Bad Kissingen, and Worms and with part of its forces to Bamberg.

The separation line with the Army is the ČSSR-GDR border as far as Aš, then Bayreuth, Mosbach, and Sarrebourg, Chaumont (all points exclusively for the Czechoslovak Front).

The meeting point with the 8th Guards Army should be supported by the forces and means of the Czechoslovak Front.

On the left – the Southern Group of Forces and the Hungarian People’s Army will cover the state borders of Hungary.

The dividing line with them: state border of the ČSSR with the Hungarian People’s Republic, and then the northern borders of Austria, Switzerland, and Italy.



4. The 1st Army (19th and 20th mechanized rifle divisions, 1st and 13th tank divisions, 311st artillery missile brigade) with 312nd heavy artillery brigade, 33rd antitank artillery brigade without 7th antitank artillery regiment, the 2nd bridge-building brigade without the 71st bridge-building battalion, the 351st and 352nd engineering battalions of the 52nd engineering brigade.

The immediate task is to defeat the enemy’s group of the 2nd Army Corps of the FRG and the 7th US Army in interaction with the 8th Guards Army of the 1st Western Front, and to develop advance in the direction of Neustadt, Nuremberg, Ansbach, and with part of forces in interaction with units of the 8th Guards Army in the direction of Bamberg, by D1 to take control of the line Bayreuth, Amberg, Schmidmühlen; and by the end of D2 to arrive on the line Höchstadt, Schwabach, Heiden.

The further task is to advance in the direction of Ansbach, Crailsheim, Stuttgart; to defeat the advancing operative reserves of the enemy, and by the end of D4 take control of the line past Mosbach, Bietigheim, Nürtingen.

Subsequently to be ready to develop the advance in the direction of Stuttgart, Strasbourg, Epinal.

The dividing line on the left is Poběžovice, Schwandorf, Weissenburg, Heidenheim, Reutlingen (all the points except Heidenheim, are inclusive for the 1st Army).

Headquarters – in the forest 1 kilometer south of Stříbro.

The axis of the movement is Stříbro, Grafenwöhr, Ansbach, Schwäbisch Hall.



5. The 4th Army (2nd and 15th mechanized rifle divisions, 4th and 9th tank divisions, 321st artillery missile brigade) with 7th antitank artillery brigade and 33rd antitank artillery brigade, 71st bridge-building battalion of the 2nd bridge-building brigade, 92nd bridge-building battalion and 353rd engineering battalion.

The immediate task is to defeat the enemy group of the 2nd Army Corps of the FRG in cooperation with the troops of the 1st Army and to develop advance in the direction of Regensburg, Ingolstadt, Donauwörth, and with part of forces in the direction Straubing, Munich; and by the end of D1 to take control of the line Schmidmühlen, Regensburg, Passau; by the end of D2 – Eichstätt, Moosburg, Mühldorf.

The subsequent task is to advance in the direction of Donauwörth, Ulm, to defeat the advancing formations of the 1st French Army and by the end of D4 to take control of the line Metzingen, Memmingen, Kaufbeuren.

Subsequently to be ready to develop advance in the direction of Ulm, Mulhouse, Besançon. Headquarters – 6 kilometers northwest of Strakonice.

The axis of movement is – Strakonice, Klatovy, Falkenstein, Kelheim, Rennertshofen, Burgau.



6. The Missile Forces of the Front must in the first nuclear strike destroy the group of forces of the 7th US Army, part of forces of the 2nd Army Corps of the FRG, and part of the air defense forces of the enemy.

Subsequently, the main efforts should be concentrated on defeating the advancing operative and strategic reserves and also the newly discovered means of nuclear attack of the enemy.

In order to fulfill the tasks set to the front, the following ammunition shall be used:

-- for the immediate task--44 operative-tactical and tactical missiles with nuclear warheads;

-- for the subsequent task--42 operative-tactical and tactical missiles with nuclear warheads;

-- for unexpectedly arising tasks--10 operative-tactical and tactical missiles with nuclear warheads shall be left in the Front’s reserve.

The commander of Missile Forces shall receive special assembly brigades with special ammunition, which shall be transferred to the Czechoslovak Front in the following areas: 2 kilometers to the East of Jablonec, and 3 kilometers to the East of Michalovce.

The use of special ammunition–only with permission of the Supreme Commander of the Unified Armed Forces.



7. Aviation. The 10th Air Force– the 1st fighter division, 2nd and 34th fighter-bomber division, 25th bomber regiment, 46th transport air division, 47thair reconnaissance regiment and 45th air reconnaissance regiment for target guidance.

Combat tasks:

With the first nuclear strike to destroy part of forces of the 2nd Army Corps of the FRG, two command and targeting centers, and part of the air defense forces of the enemy.

Upon the beginning of combat actions to suppress part of air defense forces of the enemy in the following regions: Roding, Kirchroth, Hohenfels, Amberg, Pfreimd, Nagel, and Erbendorf.

To uncover and destroy operative and tactical means of nuclear attack, command and control aviation forces in the following regions: Weiden, Nabburg, Amberg, Grafenwöhr, Hohenfels, Regensburg, and Erlangen.

During the operation to give intensive support to combat actions of the troops of the front: on D1 – 6 group sorties of fighter bombers, from D2 to D5 – 8 group sorties of fighter bombers and bombers daily, and from D6 to D8 – 6 group sorties of fighter bombers and bombers daily. The main effort should be concentrated on supporting the troops of the 1st Army.

In cooperation with forces and means of the air defense of the country, fronts and neighbors – to cover the main group of forces of the Front from air strikes by the enemy.

To ensure the landing of reconnaissance troops and general airborne forces on D1 and D2 in the rear of the enemy.

To ensure airborne landing of the 22nd airborne brigade on D4 in the area north of Stuttgart, or on D5 in the area of Rastatt, or on D6 in the area to the east of Mulhouse.

To carry out air reconnaissance with concentration of main effort on the direction of Nuremberg, Stuttgart, and Strasbourg with the goal of locating means of nuclear attack, and in order to determine in time the beginning of operations and the direction of the advancing operative reserves of the enemy.

In order to fulfill the tasks set for the front, it will be required to use the following weapons:

-- for the immediate task -- 10 nuclear bombs;

-- for subsequent tasks – 7 nuclear bombs;

-- for resolving unexpectedly arising tasks – 2 nuclear bombs shall be left in the Front’s reserve.

The 57th Air Force, consisting of the 131st fighter division, 289th fighter-bomber regiment, 230th and 733rd bomber regiment and 48th air reconnaissance regiment, arriving by D1 from the Carpathian military district, is to remain under operative subordination to the Czechoslovak Front until the fifth to sixth day for 5 army sorties.

The Army has a determined the limit of: combat sets of air bombs – 3, combat sets of air-to-air missiles – 2, combat sets of aviation cartridges – 2, and fuel – 3 rounds of army refueling.

Combat tasks:

-- in cooperation with the 10th Air Force to find and destroy the means of nuclear attack of the enemy, its aviation and command and control centers with concentration of main efforts on the direction of Nuremberg, Strasbourg;

-- to support combat actions of the troops of the Front when they force the rivers Naab, Neckar, Rhine, and when they counter attackof the enemy;

-- to support combat actions of the 22nd airborne brigade in the areas of its landing;

-- to protect the troops of the front from air strikes by the enemy;

-- to carry out air reconnaissance with concentration of the main effort on discovering the means of nuclear attack and deep operative and strategic reserves of the enemy.

The 184th heavy bomber regiment of long-range aviation should use nuclear bombs in the first nuclear strike against headquarters of the 2nd Army Corps of the FRG, 7th US Army, 2nd/40 Corporal artillery batallion, 2nd/82 Corporal artillery batallion, 5th/73 Sergeant artillery batallion, and the main group of forces of the 4th mechanized division and 12th tank division of the 2nd Army Corps of the FRG. Total use of nuclear bombs – 16. Use of special combat ammunition –only with permission of the Supreme Commander of the Unified Armed Forces.



8. Air Defense

7th Air Defense Army of the country – 2nd and 3rd air defense corps.

Combat tasks:

-- in cooperation with air defense forces of the Front and the air defense of the neighbors in the united air defense system of countries of the Warsaw Treaty to repel massive air strikes of the enemy with concentration of main effort on the direction Karlsruhe, Prague, Ostrava.

-- not to allow reconnaissance and air strikes of the enemy against our groups of forces, especially in the area of the Czech Lands, against aircraft on the airfields, and against important political and economic centers of the country, as well as communications centers. The main effort should be concentrated on protecting the areas of Prague, Ostrava, Brno and Bratislava;

-- upon the beginning of combat actions, troops of the Czechoslovak Front with anti-aircraft missile forces to continue to defend most important areas and objects of the country, with forces of fighter aviation to defend objects of the Front after the advancing troops.


Air Defense troops of the Front

Combat tasks:

--Upon the beginning of combat action of the Front, to take part in the general air defense system of the Warsaw Treaty countries with all forces and resources to cover the main group of the Front's troops.

--During the operation, in cooperation with the 7th Air Defense Army, units of 10th and 57th Air Force and the air defense of the 1st Western Front, to cover the troops of the front from the air strikes of the enemy in the process of their passing over the border mountains, and also during the crossing of the rivers Neckar and Rhine to cover the missile forces and command and control centers



9. The 22nd airborne brigade is to be ready to be deployed from the region of Prostějov, Niva, Brodek to the region north of Stuttgart on D4 or to the region of Rastatt on D5, or to the region to the east of Mulhouse on D6 with the task of capturing and holding river crossings on Neckar or Rhine until the arrival of our troops.



10. Reserves of the Front.

The 3rd, 18th, 26th, and 32nd mechanized rifle divisions of the Southern Group of Forces, the 14th and 17th tank divisions are to concentrate in the regions designated on the decision map in the period from D3 to D5.

The 6th engineering brigade by D3 is to be concentrated in the region of Panenský Týnec, and Bor, past Slaný, to be ready to ensure force crossing of the rivers Neckar and Rhine by the troops of the Front.

The 103rd chemical warfare batallion from D2 to be stationed in the region of Hluboš, past Příbram, past Dobříš. The main effort of radiation reconnaissance should be concentrated in the region of Hořovice, Blovice, and Sedlčany.

Objects of special treatment should be deployed in the areas of deployment of command and control centers of the Front, the 331st front brigade, and also in the regions of concentration of the reserve divisions of the Front.



11. Material Maintenance of the Rear The main effort in the material maintenance of the rear of the troops of the Front should be concentrated throughout the entire depth of the operation in the area of the 1st Army's advance.

To support the troops of the 1st Army, the 10th and 57th Air Forces should deploy to the forward front base number 1 and the base of the 10th Air Force in the region to the West of Plzeň by the end of D2; troops of the 4th Army should deploy the forward front base number 2 in the region to the south of Plzeň.

Field pipeline is to be deployed in the direction of Roudnice, Plzeň, Nuremberg, and Karlsruhe and used for provision of aircraft fuel.

Rebuilding of railroads should be planned on the directions Cheb-Nuremberg or Domažlice-Schwandorf-Regensburg-Donauwörth.

Two roads should be built following the 1st Army, and one front road throughout the entire depth of the operation following the 4th Army.

The Ministry of National Defense of the ČSSR will assign material resources, including full replacement of the ammunition used during the operation for the troops of the Czechoslovak Front.

Support for the 57th Air Force should be planned taking into account the material resources located in the territory of the ČSSR for the Unified Command.

Use of material resources should be planned as follows:

-- ammunition – 45,000 tons

-- combustible-lubricating oil – 93, 000 tons

-- including aircraft fuel – 40, 000 tons

-- missile fuel:

-- oxidizer—220 tons

-- missile fuel – 70 tons

Automobile transportation of the Front should be able to supply the troops with 70, 000 tons of cargo during the operation.

Transportation of the troops should be able to carry 58, 000 tons of cargo. By the end of the operation the troops should have 80% of mobile reserves available. In D1 and D2 hospital bed network for 10 to 12 thousand sick and wounded personnel is to be deployed.

By the end of the operation the hospital bed network should cover 18% of the hospital losses of the Front.



12. Headquarters of the Front should be deployed from the time “X” plus 6 hours –5 kilometers to the east of Strašice. The axis of movement – Heilbronn, Horb, Epinal.

Reserve Command Post – forest, to the north of Březová

Advanced Command Post – forest 5 kilometers to the east of Dobřany

Rear Command Post – Jince-Obecnice

Reserve Rear Command Post – past Dobřany, Slapy, past Mníše

Headquarters of MNO – object K-116, Prague.





Minister of National Defense of the ČSSR

General of the Army [signed] Bohumír Lomský

Head of the General Staff of Czechoslovak People’s Army

Colonel General [signed] Otakar Rytíř



Head of the Operations Department of the General Staff

Major General [signed] Václav Vitanovský

11 October 1964



[Rectangular seal:]

Ministry of National Defense

General Staff – Operations Department

Section: Operations Room

Received: 20.10.1964

No. 008074/ZD-OS 64, 17 sheets



Executed in one copy of 17 sheets

Executed by Major General Jan Voštera

[signed] Gen. Voštera

14 October 1964



[Translated from the original Russian by Dr. Svetlana Savranskaya, Research Fellow, National Security Archive, George Washington University, and Anna Locher, Research Assistant, Center for Security Studies and Conflict Research, Zurich.]

sappersgt
25 Sep 06,, 04:27
That is...sobering. My first glance was for each defending division to be targeted with at least 6 nukes in the initial attack and an equal number of follow on devices in the subsequent days. I think a lot would depend on how much warning the NATO troops would get. Sanguine doesn't even begin to describe this scenario.

Officer of Engineers
25 Sep 06,, 05:06
You will note that cities are amongst the target list, including Lyon. There was no doubt by both sides that they were going to burn cities.

sappersgt
25 Sep 06,, 05:52
"Objects of special treatment"? A translation/transcription anomaly or is that an euphemism for...?

Bill
25 Sep 06,, 06:22
This sort of exchange would've quickly and irrevocably escalated to a full out global exchange.

100% guaranteed IMO.

Officer of Engineers
25 Sep 06,, 06:45
Bill,

You did not need to add in the IMO, the Soviet Staff agrees with you

Military Art in the Conditions of Nuclear War (http://www.isn.ethz.ch/php/documents/collection_1/docs/ivashutin-engl.htm) from Colonel General P. Ivashutin to Marshall M. V. Zakharov

YellowFever
25 Sep 06,, 07:37
No it didn't. It gave Larry Bond a way to end practically every subsequent novel he wrote. :rolleyes:

It also gave Clancy a way to end Bear And The Dragon. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Tell me about it.

It was a monumental let down.

I thought Larry Bonds "Red Phoenix" was a more "realistic" book than Red Storm Rising.

dalem
25 Sep 06,, 09:01
Considering the fact the Clancy/Bond deliberately constructed a scenario in which the Pact forces were NOT going to use nukes/chems, I think it was a pretty good tale.

-dale

Wraith601
27 Sep 06,, 06:56
I also like Harold Coyle's earlier WWIII books such as Team Yankee and Sword Point.

lwarmonger
30 Sep 06,, 00:09
I thought it was pretty good given the information they had at the time (discussing a nuclear conflict wasn't the goal). I think it would be an accurate depiction of a non-nuclear conflict in 1979 or 1980.

Other than the naval element of course. That was an assumption of everything going right for the Soviets which I think was unlikely.

TopHatter
30 Sep 06,, 02:06
Other than the naval element of course. That was an assumption of everything going right for the Soviets which I think was unlikely.

Operation Polar Glory (the invasion of Iceland) did seem like it went somewhat "too well" given the circumstances, but I guess you can chalk it up to fortunes of war and all that.

There were a few points that they were careful to make, like one of the Soviet ASM's making a lucky direct hit on the Marine CP, decapitating the garrison leadership.

Personally I was disappointed with the amount of time given to the ground war in Germany, at least compared to the other storylines. Just a minor gripe though.

dalem
30 Sep 06,, 05:59
Operation Polar Glory (the invasion of Iceland) did seem like it went somewhat "too well" given the circumstances, but I guess you can chalk it up to fortunes of war and all that.

There were a few points that they were careful to make, like one of the Soviet ASM's making a lucky direct hit on the Marine CP, decapitating the garrison leadership.

Personally I was disappointed with the amount of time given to the ground war in Germany, at least compared to the other storylines. Just a minor gripe though.

In one of the discussions about the scenario laid out for RSR (Clancy & Bond used Bond's miniature game rules, Harpoon, for "modeling") one of them blatantly stated that without closing the Atlantic, the Sovs simply could not win the conventional ground war they had set up for the basic story. So they wrote the story (remember folks, it's a story ;) ) so that Polar Glory went exceedingly well - not only was Iceland denied to NATO, but it was usable by the Sovs.

Remember a line by one of the first Sov air officers that comes over: "I think they'll use a nuke to close this base down on us - I would."

So there are brief glimpses of the probable reality even while Clancy & Bond wove their fiction around a careful core.

-dale

TopHatter
01 Oct 06,, 16:50
Speaking of Iceland, Wikipedia has this (unsourced) statement:


The [now-closed Keflavik] NATO military base is used as a setting for an important story line in Tom Clancy's novel Red Storm Rising. However, Clancy's descriptions of the base, the geography, local flora, and the station equipment were largely inaccurate

The ASAT parts of the book are at least grounded in reality pretty well:


From January 1984 to September 1986, an F-15A was used as a launch platform for five ASM-135 ASAT missiles. The F-15A went into a supersonic climb and released the ASAT missile at an altitude of 11.6 km. The F-15A computer was updated to control the zoom-climb and missile release. The third test flight involved a retired communications satellite in a 555 km orbit, which was successfully destroyed by sheer kinetic energy. The pilot, USAF Major Wilbert D. "Doug" Pearson, became the first pilot ever to destroy an orbiting satellite.

The ASAT missile was designed to be a standoff anti-satellite weapon, with an undetected first stage (the F-15A).

Silent Hunter
07 Dec 07,, 15:46
I've read this (and written an article on it over at Television Tropes and Idioms). It's one of my favourite books. It introduced me to the Tu-22M for a start.

Someone's done a whole campaign based on the novel for Dangerous Waters.

Speedy
08 Dec 07,, 04:06
In my opinion Ralph Peters' "Red Army" was far superior to any Clancy book.

troung
15 Dec 07,, 02:32
Does anyone know what the wartime plans were for Mongolia?

Feanor
15 Dec 07,, 06:23
Does anyone know what the wartime plans were for Mongolia?

No doubt to seize control of the Pacific and Hawaii, and prepare a general invasion of California :rolleyes:

TopHatter
15 Dec 07,, 15:06
No doubt to seize control of the Pacific and Hawaii, and prepare a general invasion of California :rolleyes:

Ok Yamamoto, whatever :rolleyes:

Feanor
15 Dec 07,, 21:01
Ok Yamamoto, whatever :rolleyes:

Come on, don't tell me you didn't realize that was sarcasm............ :mad: I mean seriously. The significance of a country with a population less then the size of the Soviet Army, located between USSR and China, possessing a generally poor economy and no modern military tech............ :confused:

HistoricalDavid
15 Dec 07,, 22:52
I don't think they meant Mongolia's war plans, but what China and the USSR were going to do with it, or in it.

TopHatter
16 Dec 07,, 07:03
Come on, don't tell me you didn't realize that was sarcasm.

Yes, I did realize that. ;)

Didn't you? :))

Oddly enough, I recently bought a most intriguing book: Hawaii Under the Rising Sun: Japan's Plans for Conquest After Pearl Harbor (http://www.amazon.com/Hawaii-Under-Rising-Sun-Conquest/dp/0824825500/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197784894&sr=8-1)

A most interesting read. I highly recommend it for anybody with an interest in what the Japanese had in mind for Hawaii

reve893
18 Mar 08,, 19:19
Red Storm Rising is a better techno-thriller than "Red Army." Red Army focuses more on the psychology of the combatants. It doesn't focuses much on the Atlantic War, which we all know would be imperative for any conflict. The outcome of the war in "Red Storm Rising" was a little to forced. Tom Clancy seemed to have tried to hard to get NATO the victory. The Soviet Union would had transfered those two field armies in the Caucasus, to the Western Front. Remember this was an all or nothing for the politburo. Polar Glory was perhaps, the best idea that an author has come up with. It switched the whole situation, and gave the Soviet Union the advantage. The Spetnatz forces shown in the begining would had been much better, furthermore they would not have done those missions before the war began. I believe Tom Clancy did this in order to give NATO a more stable ground to fly, and allow it to destroy the bridges in the very beginning.
I was disappointed that Special Forces weren't used further into the book. But in order to really make a great book, on such a gargantuan event would require thousands more pages.

S2
18 Mar 08,, 22:54
"Red Storm Rising is a better techno-thriller than "Red Army."

Different stories, and would also be the case for Coyle's superb "Team Yankee".

"It doesn't focuses much on the Atlantic War, which we all know would be imperative for any conflict."

Clancy's approach of "Polar Glory" was an assymetric answer to a Soviet strategic imperative. Still, the killing blow would be delivered in central Europe and, from Peters' perspective, here lay the best opportunity to explore the psyche of the red army soldier.

I though Peters did a great job, personally.

lwarmonger
19 Mar 08,, 00:19
The outcome of the war in "Red Storm Rising" was a little to forced. Tom Clancy seemed to have tried to hard to get NATO the victory. The Soviet Union would had transfered those two field armies in the Caucasus, to the Western Front.

Remember their end goal. Their economy would grind to a halt without the Middle Eastern oil. Also remember that he ignores the rest of NATO (it is fairly unlikely that Soviet propaganda would be that effective)... it would have been fairly likely that those Soviet armies wouldn't be available for Germany anyways because there would be many fronts. Flexability of air and sea power.



Remember this was an all or nothing for the politburo. Polar Glory was perhaps, the best idea that an author has come up with. It switched the whole situation, and gave the Soviet Union the advantage. The Spetnatz forces shown in the begining would had been much better, furthermore they would not have done those missions before the war began. I believe Tom Clancy did this in order to give NATO a more stable ground to fly, and allow it to destroy the bridges in the very beginning.

A long shot operation though. As for the strike on the bridges, NATO would have started rolling back Warsaw Pact airpower from day one even without things occuring the way Tom Clancy put it. After that interdiction missions would have been increasingly effective.



I was disappointed that Special Forces weren't used further into the book. But in order to really make a great book, on such a gargantuan event would require thousands more pages.

Two theaters of war was enough. In my personal opinion, not enough effort was put into Germany. I doubt that special forces would have had any decisive impact on the course of the war.

TopHatter
19 Mar 08,, 00:33
In my personal opinion, not enough effort was put into Germany.

I agree, the air-land battle in Germany could have been greatly expanded, particularly the very beginning strikes by the Soviets.

reve893
19 Mar 08,, 00:45
Well true, two fronts was enough. Don't want a War and Peace story going on. But special forces could have harassed enemy lines, and even destroy Soviet Union fuel dumps. One of the reasons I personally love Tom Clancy is reading about all this special forces, the 3rd SOG, Rainbow Six, and Spetnatz. It adds a special kick in there, and NATO would have used them much better than the Soviet Union Spetnatz Operations in the beginning.
He should had focused more on Germany, but there is only so much that an author can make in such a topic. Polar Glory was a far fetch idea, but then again many of the greatest raids were far fetch.
The air-land battle by Soviet Planes would had been great, especially how American anti-air missiles could do. Also, many more weapons should had been included, and the American advance would had been stop the same way NATO stopped the Soviet Advances.

zraver
20 Mar 08,, 00:07
"Red Storm Rising is a better techno-thriller than "Red Army."

Different stories, and would also be the case for Coyle's superb "Team Yankee".

One of my fav reads ever for obvious reasons. I also liked the book it is based on by Hacksworth. Being British and a real officer he focuses on the North German Plain.


"It doesn't focuses much on the Atlantic War, which we all know would be imperative for any conflict."

Clancy's approach of "Polar Glory" was an assymetric answer to a Soviet strategic imperative. Still, the killing blow would be delivered in central Europe and, from Peters' perspective, here lay the best opportunity to explore the psyche of the red army soldier.

I though Peters did a great job, personally.

I really liked the way he sidelined the US Army and shifted the focus back onto the historic Russo-German rivalry but still managed to have V/VII corps ride in from the flank give the American reader a sense of job well done.

S2
20 Mar 08,, 19:46
Sir John Hackett, IIRC

zraver
21 Mar 08,, 03:09
Sir John Hackett, IIRC

Yup, been awhile since I read it.

Officer of Engineers
21 Mar 08,, 04:21
Which one did you read?

The Third World War
The Third World War: Lecture
The Third World War: Untold Story

Facinating read all three

zraver
21 Mar 08,, 04:38
Wwiii

Stan187
22 Mar 08,, 04:57
I agree, the air-land battle in Germany could have been greatly expanded, particularly the very beginning strikes by the Soviets.

The Northern Plain axis of advance was only mentioned in passing. Shame, that was where some real large formation were going to collide in (more or less) open tank country.

S2
22 Mar 08,, 17:55
He was a navy fan. Clancy was out of his element then as he attempted to capture the battle. IIRC, Sgt., then Lt. Mackall leading a platoon in the 11th ACR (Blackhorse). It read clumsy compared to Coyle's TEAM YANKEE.

Stan187
22 Mar 08,, 21:41
He was a navy fan. Clancy was out of his element then as he attempted to capture the battle. IIRC, Sgt., then Lt. Mackall leading a platoon in the 11th ACR (Blackhorse). It read clumsy compared to Coyle's TEAM YANKEE.

Hmm, I suppose I should have read that already, but I'm putting it on my list. Thanks for the implicit suggestion, S-2!

lwarmonger
23 Mar 08,, 06:48
The Northern Plain axis of advance was only mentioned in passing. Shame, that was where some real large formation were going to collide in (more or less) open tank country.

Well, I actually think it would have been quite a slugging match through a large number of closely grouped small towns.

The North German plain isn't exactly devoid of human construction.

Stan187
23 Mar 08,, 07:47
Well, I actually think it would have been quite a slugging match through a large number of closely grouped small towns.

The North German plain isn't exactly devoid of human construction.

Yeah I understand that, hence the more or less, it is better tankcountry than through Fulda as far as I understand.

zraver
23 Mar 08,, 17:34
Yeah I understand that, hence the more or less, it is better tankcountry than through Fulda as far as I understand.

Better for the attacker, the US Army could not have asked for better defensive terrain.

Stan187
23 Mar 08,, 22:22
Better for the attacker, the US Army could not have asked for better defensive terrain.

Yeah, you're right, I was talking in terms of the Soviets objectives. Obviously, the Brits would not have had an easy time in the North.

T_igger_cs_30
23 Mar 08,, 22:29
Yeah, you're right, I was talking in terms of the Soviets objectives. Obviously, the Brits would not have had an easy time in the North.

If memory serves I think we were expected to hold for 36 hours............or was that 3 hours :confused:

Stan187
23 Mar 08,, 22:34
If memory serves I think we were expected to hold for 36 hours............or was that 3 hours :confused:

Was that assuming tac-nukes are not employed?

T_igger_cs_30
23 Mar 08,, 22:36
Was that assuming tac-nukes are not employed?

Conventional yes,I think everything was asumed without tac nukes, difficult to plan anything based on nukes fying around wouldnt you say.

zraver
24 Mar 08,, 03:23
If memory serves I think we were expected to hold for 36 hours............or was that 3 hours :confused:

IIRC the Brits biggest problem was falling back intact so they didn't get broken and and encircled or forced into the cities. With the most and weakest allies and the facing the best Soviet avenue of attack it was a tall order. But as long as they could keep the Soviets from breaking through it kept the American's eventual counter-stroke a threat to the Soviets.

The roughest job would have gone to the territorials and thier anti-tank teams. They would have bought minutes with thier blood but collectively could wreck the Soviet timetable.

T_igger_cs_30
24 Mar 08,, 03:37
IIRC the Brits biggest problem was falling back intact so they didn't get broken and and encircled or forced into the cities. With the most and weakest allies and the facing the best Soviet avenue of attack it was a tall order. But as long as they could keep the Soviets from breaking through it kept the American's eventual counter-stroke a threat to the Soviets.

The roughest job would have gone to the territorials and thier anti-tank teams. They would have bought minutes with thier blood but collectively could wreck the Soviet timetable.

As I said our job was to "hold".untill the cavalry arrived :biggrin: .........remember the training Ex Spearpoint

S2
24 Mar 08,, 17:38
Between 1945 and 1975 the character of German terrain across the nation changed. Distinct villages and hamlets began experiencing the same phenomena as America- suburbs and urbanized strips filling the intervening countryside.

NORTHAG had a relatively flat expanse but possessed some depth. Fulda had more distinctive terrain from which to defend but lacked depth to the Rhine River. A breakthrough at Fulda would have had catastrophic consequences for the NATO defense- opening the MAIN river valley down to the Rhine river and splitting NATO defense in two.

NORTHAG counted on sprawl around places like Hamburg to slow/degrade the Soviet follow-on echelons.

MASKIROVKA- Two weeks warning and NATO's posture changes dramatically. One month and maybe things are damn near even. A cold start makes tough any assistance from follow-on echelons but achieves surprise.

Could GSFG do it by themselves?

zraver
24 Mar 08,, 22:58
Between 1945 and 1975 the character of German terrain across the nation changed. Distinct villages and hamlets began experiencing the same phenomena as America- suburbs and urbanized strips filling the intervening countryside.

NORTHAG had a relatively flat expanse but possessed some depth. Fulda had more distinctive terrain from which to defend but lacked depth to the Rhine River. A breakthrough at Fulda would have had catastrophic consequences for the NATO defense- opening the MAIN river valley down to the Rhine river and splitting NATO defense in two.

NORTHAG counted on sprawl around places like Hamburg to slow/degrade the Soviet follow-on echelons.

MASKIROVKA- Two weeks warning and NATO's posture changes dramatically. One month and maybe things are damn near even. A cold start makes tough any assistance from follow-on echelons but achieves surprise.

Could GSFG do it by themselves?

In the 1970's probably at least vs Northhag,They could probalby even blunt V and VII corps. After 83-84 not a chance*. Fulda's depth was the French Army. As long as the US Army kept it together the French were only a few days away. Even a breakout would need significant blocking forces to keep the Franco-American forces from driving in the side the doing an envelopment in turn. Without follow echelons the GSFG doesn't have the weight to attack on two axis and screen the side of the assault.

After the mid 80's the balance of power shifted. NATO had the F-15, F-16, F-111, Abrams, Challenger, Leopard 2, TOW, HOT, Milan, Dragon, Apache, MLRS in increasing numbers and finally had a credible combined arms package.

Stan187
24 Mar 08,, 23:05
Conventional yes,I think everything was asumed without tac nukes, difficult to plan anything based on nukes fying around wouldnt you say.

Yes Sir, yet it was done by both sides in any case, I guess it involves a lot of assumption, guesstimation, and my personal favorite, number fudging.

Stan187
24 Mar 08,, 23:07
IIRC the Brits biggest problem was falling back intact so they didn't get broken and and encircled or forced into the cities. With the most and weakest allies and the facing the best Soviet avenue of attack it was a tall order. But as long as they could keep the Soviets from breaking through it kept the American's eventual counter-stroke a threat to the Soviets.

Forced into the cities? Wasn't it Soviet doctrine to completly bypass cities?

zraver
25 Mar 08,, 00:12
Forced into the cities? Wasn't it Soviet doctrine to completly bypass cities?

exaclty, if the Sovs could force the British to stop maneuvering and fighting and force them in self protection mode by holing up in a city or pulling north into Denmark to await the outcome of the war elsewhere....

S2
25 Mar 08,, 00:30
"Wasn't it Soviet doctrine to completly bypass cities?"

Doctrine would have collided w/ reality anywhere in W. Germany after 1970 or so. Built-up areas and urbanized strips abound on low ground.

It wouldn't have been that cleanly demarked.

The Soviet Union attempted to mitigate this by introducing OMGs (Operational manuever groups) specifically designed to exploit deeply and maintain operational momentum towards the Rhine bridges.

It would have never happened by 1985. By 1990 the Soviet Union may not have crossed the IGB.

A LOT of British tankers here who could really highlight the terrain, obstacles (both natural and man-made- i.e. canals), sprawl, farmlands, woods/forests in the north.

I'd be eager for their impressions.

lwarmonger
25 Mar 08,, 00:41
Could GSFG do it by themselves?

If they attained tactical, operational and strategic surprise? I still don't think that was possible after the 1970's. They had what, 20 Cat A divisions in Germany? Which would have to carry all of the fighting (through urban heavily defended terrain) in addition to occupying conquered territory and observing disenchanted allies (who would have to have been kept in the dark in order to maintain surprise... not making for happy relations).

I wouldn't want to be a planner for Kremlin trying to realistically plan such a non-nuclear operation.

Officer of Engineers
25 Mar 08,, 01:01
I'd be eager for their impressions.

Well, here is the Warsaw Pact impression


From Military Planning for European Theater Conflict in the Cold War (http://www.php.isn.ethz.ch/documents/ZB79_000.pdf)

The Operational Plans

The conference began with a detailed overview of the NATO plans in the early 1980s. Th e plans assumed that the Warsaw Pact had numerical conventional superiority and anticipated a gradual improvement of its armament. Th e plans, it was repeatedly emphasised, were fi rst and foremost intended to deter the Warsaw Pact from attacking. Should deterrence fail, they were to serve as a guide for the defence of the territory of the NATO member countries. Th e plans were therefore of purely defensive nature. Counterattacks were only intended to recapture lost territory. All NATO representatives confi rmed this; the German representative pointed out the catastrophic consequences of any alternative for the civilian population of his country. A very important new element in the planning, in the event of the Warsaw Pact opening the attack, was attacking enemy troops assembling on the territory of the member states of the Warsaw Pact – the AirLand Battle /Follow-on Forces Attack, or FOFA, concept.

The representatives of the former Soviet Union then made it clear
that the Warsaw Pact had never had plans to be the fi rst to attack either. It would not even have been able to do so, as too many Soviet troops were stationed along the border with China, and the fi ghting in Afghanistan required the deployment of a great many troops as well. It was mainly for that reason, it was said, that the Soviet Union also halted plans for military intervention in Poland.25

The Soviet Union considered the United States to be the main opponent in the European theatre of war. If NATO had attacked, the Pact would have therefore launched nuclear missiles at America almost immediately. It would have attacked on the notion, based on past experiences, that attack was the best form of defence. Like NATO, it had stationed its troops as far forward as possible in order to be able to carry out such an attack. However, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, the military leadership assumed that there would be no hostilities in Europe because they would almost certainly lead to a world war. These revelations surprised the NATO participants, who in those days had assumed that the Soviet Union was prepared to limit a possible war to Europe, to prevent American retaliation.

S2
25 Mar 08,, 14:31
Colonel,

I've seen this elsewhere from you. I perhaps recall a conversation w/ M21. Seemed to have included a report from a Hungarian pilot about ops planned towards Italy.

Lots of chem and nukes, as I recall.

Sir, was the Canadian Brigade Group attached to BAOR or were they a NATO reserve?

Officer of Engineers
25 Mar 08,, 14:43
I've seen this elsewhere from you. I perhaps recall a conversation w/ M21. Seemed to have included a report from a Hungarian pilot about ops planned towards Italy.This one is new. Just published but it's from the same site Parallel History Project - HOME - (http://www.php.isn.ethz.ch/)


Lots of chem and nukes, as I recall.The Czech plan had in it 160 nukes on the 1st day.


Sir, was the Canadian Brigade Group attached to BAOR or were they a NATO reserve?We were VII Corps' strategic reserves.

S2
26 Mar 08,, 03:33
Colonel,

Great site, to say the least. Article is huge and fascinating. So much is. Where's the time?

You should resurrect that thread that I mentioned w/ M21 and yourself and sticky the sucker. Then take all this peripheral stuff and toss it in there.

Just my $.02 worth.:biggrin:

Have a good day, sir.

Albany Rifles
26 Mar 08,, 15:10
For a business insurance salesman, Clancy wrote pretty good stories.

As for whether his scenarios rang true or were doctrinally correct, who cares! He had to set up conditions for NATO to win and that there had to be some "good guys" within the Warsaw Pact.

After all, Clancy was a business man who was trying to make money selling books in the US, not the USSR!

I actually found his older books more believable.

I agree with the assessments of GEN Sir John Hackett's books as well as Coyle's early work...before he went off the deep end.

OOE, I read a novel about the 4 CMBG and their role in this "war"...do you recall it?



As for nukes....the ones which really scared me in the early 80s were the ADMs. And I am here to say that form 82- 84, when we heard the words LARIAT ADVANCE over the phone at 0400, we thought it was for real. The Warsaw PAct may have backed away from war by then but I believe, as has come out, the Western Intel establishment badly misread the thoughts of the Warsaw Pact...and we at the sharp end really thought we were going to war.

Tarek Morgen
26 Mar 08,, 15:33
If remember a report correctly I read some years ago, both sides inteligences were sure that the other side would be planing an attack, what led them to prepare for the incoming invasion of the other side

Officer of Engineers
27 Mar 08,, 14:57
OOE, I read a novel about the 4 CMBG and their role in this "war"...do you recall it?

I thought it was Hackett's Third World War but I'm wrong. I recall it but don't know which one now.

Albany Rifles
27 Mar 08,, 15:08
I thought it was Hackett's Third World War but I'm wrong. I recall it but don't know which one now.

Actually it was about the 4 CMBG totally...a briagde and regiment/battalion level view of WW III.

Very well written.

Officer of Engineers
27 Mar 08,, 15:17
Kenneth Macksey - First Thrust. I googled it. It was written for the Staff Level course. I'm looking for it now and see if I can order it.