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wangrui961
23 Sep 06,, 13:22
If war begins between China and Janpan for the conflicts in east China sea, what will happened .
1.US ? will US war with China or adjust disorder?
2.Russia? Will Russia help China(such as supports new weapons) or keep neutral
3,India? Strike China ? keep netrual? Scold China and then do nothing?
4.EU? ajust disoder or scold China or scold Japan?
5,SK? watch a film and feel very happy?
6,PaK , I think Pak would support us.
.............................................
And who will win ,China? Japan?
..............................................

wangrui961
23 Sep 06,, 13:23
welcome to give your viewpoints:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

HistoricalDavid
23 Sep 06,, 13:30
a) You're too obsessed with everything Chinese. China this, China that.

1) US has about 50,000 servicemen in Japan. Probably they will retaliate, considering China's capability to seriously hurt Japan rests only with nuclear weapons.
2) I'm sure Russia would sell weapons to China, just like it's been doing for a long time. But why it would want to fight, I don't know.
3) Your Chinese ultra-patriotism / super nationalism shows here. You'd do well not to be so dismissive of India.
4) I can't see why they'd scold Japan. China, maybe.
5) What would NK do?
6) And what would Pakistan do to help you?

Above all, you have to lay out a realistic scenario.

wangrui961
23 Sep 06,, 13:54
a) You're too obsessed with everything Chinese. China this, China that.

1) US has about 50,000 servicemen in Japan. Probably they will retaliate, considering China's capability to seriously hurt Japan rests only with nuclear weapons.
2) I'm sure Russia would sell weapons to China, just like it's been doing for a long time. But why it would want to fight, I don't know.
3) Your Chinese ultra-patriotism / super nationalism shows here. You'd do well not to be so dismissive of India.
4) I can't see why they'd scold Japan. China, maybe.
5) What would NK do?
6) And what would Pakistan do to help you?

Above all, you have to lay out a realistic scenario.

what can NK do? Throw guided missiles to Japan and initiates nuclear war?
Pak can help us to cut the oil to Japan ,their ports could spport our submarines .

In fact ,any countries can get on well with China , incluing US( we can do progress in democracy and any other things you want) ,India ( we can make a concession to them and get on well with them)
BUT, the war to Japan must be on ,we will never live on the same planet with them. They owe us too much and we don't want them to pay back ,we will destory them .

glyn
23 Sep 06,, 14:03
BUT, the war to Japan must be on ,we will never live on the same planet with them. They owe us too much and we don't want them to pay back ,we will destory them .

Please seek psychiatric advice before your condition worsens. Your quote is that of a deranged person. I have avoided answering your posts before, as due to your language problems I have never understood just what it was you were trying to say. Now I know . You are as bigotted and ill-informed as some of the religious freaks have been, and just as disagreeable.

HistoricalDavid
23 Sep 06,, 14:13
what can NK do? Throw guided missiles to Japan and initiates nuclear war?

I said what would NK do? Obviously I don't speak Mandarin or Cantonese so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for misunderstanding my English.


Pak can help us to cut the oil to Japan ,their ports could spport our submarines.

The Pakistani navy couldn't block USN-escorted tankers going to Japan, and I doubt that your submarines have the practical endurance to go that far, assuming they don't get blown out of the water by Japanese or US anti-submarine warfare assets.


BUT, the war to Japan must be on ,we will never live on the same planet with them. They owe us too much and we don't want them to pay back ,we will destory them .

Why should the present Japanese generation pay with death for their grandfathers' crimes?

Nationalist freak.

wangrui961
23 Sep 06,, 14:23
Please seek psychiatric advice before your condition worsens. Your quote is that of a deranged person. I have avoided answering your posts before, as due to your language problems I have never understood just what it was you were trying to say. Now I know . You are as bigotted and ill-informed as some of the religious freaks have been, and just as disagreeable.

If you know what did they do in the worldwar2 in China and how they kill chinese savagely ,you may forgive me . Do you know how may Chinese were killd by Japanese? 35 millions .And do you know how they do today ? They say the war is defense and refused to admit their offences . They also treat the war criminal as their national hero . There was a race between the two japanese on killing Chinese , one killed 100 and the other killed 107 ,my grandfather's father was one of the 207. And now the two japanese are in Yasukuni Shrine as hero , The japanese pay homage to Yasukuni Jinjia everyday. If you are me ?what will you do? be happy and get on well with them and view the Yasukuni Shrine very glad?

HistoricalDavid
23 Sep 06,, 14:37
This forum is historically quite knowledgeable, you know.

You've only partially addessed why the present generation of Japanese should pay with death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#Post-1945_reactions

Obviously there is an element in Japanese society which doesn't want to apologise.

But even with this, why do words spoken by them justify war waged by you?

PS You can see the Wikipedia articles in alternative languages if you wish.

wangrui961
23 Sep 06,, 14:39
Why should the present Japanese generation pay with death for their grandfathers' crimes?

Nationalist freak.

If you know what did they do in the worldwar2 in China and how they kill chinese savagely ,you may forgive me . Do you know how may Chinese were killd by Japanese? 35 millions .And do you know how they do today ? They say the war is defense and refused to admit their offences . They also treat the war criminal as their national hero . There was a race between the two japanese on killing Chinese , one killed 100 and the other killed 107 ,my grandfather's father was one of the 207. And now the two japanese are in Yasukuni Shrine as hero , The japanese pay homage to Yasukuni Jinjia everyday. If you are me ?what will you do? be happy and get on well with them and view the Yasukuni Shrine very glad?
yet ,I am Nationalist freak , but i want to know ,why the war criminal are as heros? their hands are stained with the blood of our people ,and Jpanese pay homage to Yasukuni Jinjia everyday . What does this mean? Does this mean they love peace? Does this mean liberty?Does this mean equality ?Does this mean universal love?

SLASH
23 Sep 06,, 14:44
If you know what did they do in the worldwar2 in China and how they kill chinese savagely ,you may forgive me . Do you know how may Chinese were killd by Japanese? 35 millions .And do you know how they do today ? They say the war is defense and refused to admit their offences . They also treat the war criminal as their national hero . There was a race between the two japanese on killing Chinese , one killed 100 and the other killed 107 ,my grandfather's father was one of the 207. And now the two japanese are in Yasukuni Shrine as hero , The japanese pay homage to Yasukuni Jinjia everyday. If you are me ?what will you do? be happy and get on well with them and view the Yasukuni Shrine very glad?

Dude have you heard an army called Nazi.They were even worse than Japan.
Move on with life. Stop being such a member of CCP......:tongue:

wangrui961
23 Sep 06,, 14:47
This forum is historically quite knowledgeable, you know.

You've only partially addessed why the present generation of Japanese should pay with death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#Post-1945_reactions

Obviously there is an element in Japanese society which doesn't want to apologise.

But even with this, why do words spoken by them justify war waged by you?

PS You can see the Wikipedia articles in alternative languages if you wish.

Oh,My friend, where were they? Their forces were in our motherland ,and the war was waged by us? If we send our force to US (just if ), how will you do ? get on well with us? And if we kill 30 million Americans ,what excuses can be reasonable . Don't think too much ,just answer this 2 questions ,you will find who lied.

HistoricalDavid
23 Sep 06,, 14:47
If you know what did they do in the worldwar2 in China and how they kill chinese savagely ,you may forgive me .

My great-grandfather was beaten to death by the Soviets for the crime of possessing a farm. Romania was generally starved by 45 years of communism.

Do I advocate Russia's destruction?

No, I don't.


Do you know how may Chinese were killd by Japanese? 35 millions .And do you know how they do today ? They say the war is defense and refused to admit their offences . They also treat the war criminal as their national hero . There was a race between the two japanese on killing Chinese , one killed 100 and the other killed 107 ,my grandfather's father was one of the 207. And now the two japanese are in Yasukuni Shrine as hero , The japanese pay homage to Yasukuni Jinjia everyday. If you are me ?what will you do? be happy and get on well with them and view the Yasukuni Shrine very glad?

Get on with my life and stop believing in this nutty blood-and-soil ideology.

I wouldn't be happy, no, but neither would I advocate WAR


yet ,I am Nationalist freak , but i want to know ,why the war criminal are as heros? their hands are stained with the blood of our people ,and Jpanese pay homage to Yasukuni Jinjia everyday . What does this mean? Does this mean they love peace? Does this mean liberty?Does this mean equality ?Does this mean universal love?

For a start, the fact that the Japanese have the freedom to do this, the freedom to criticise each other, and the freedom to generally discuss and own up to its past crimes, instantly makes me want to support Japan in any conflict in the first place.

No, I don't think it's justifiable that those individual Japanese pay homage to those war criminals. Neither do I think it's justifiable that you advocate WAR - where people die and suffer - to somehow compensate it.


If we send our force to US (just if ), how will you do ?

You do not have the military capability to send your forces to the United States, much less Britain, which is where I live.


get on well with us?

If you withdrew and reformed, becoming liberal and democratic, and 60 years had passed? Yes.


And if we kill 30 million Americans ,what excuses can be reasonable .

The Americans would certainly wipe much of China off the face of the earth.

Don't try it.


Don't think too much ,

HAHAHAHAHAH!

Sorry, I just LOVE thinking! As opposed to being a nationalist freak!


just answer this 2 questions ,you will find who lied.

Who lied about what?

You have to understand my ideology, one which sometimes draws appreciation and sometimes derision on this forum.

I believe in freedom, elected governments, the rule of law for everybody, and individualism. You believe in what looks like some nationalism... which I hate. I really hate. I hate the division of the world into groups. Aren't we all people?

667medic
23 Sep 06,, 14:53
Chairman Mao killed more Chinese than the Japanese and yet he is stilled revered at Tiananmen Square.
Thousands of Tibetans were massacred by the PLA, so can they also "war" with the Chinese.
And how about all the Vietnamese, Indians and Russians killed by the PLA when you "war" with your neighbouring countries......

wangrui961
23 Sep 06,, 14:54
Dude have you heard an army called Nazi.They were even worse than Japan.
Move on with life. Stop being such a member of CCP......:tongue:

Germens admit thier offense and not treat Hitler as nation hero. But Japanese build the Yasukuni Shrine and put all war criminal in it ,they treat them as nation heros and pay homage to Yasukuni Jinjia everday ,If you go to Japan ,you will find everyone does so ,old men ,adults ,childern , and even their premier . If you are Chinese(just if), will you hope to peace with them?

HistoricalDavid
23 Sep 06,, 14:57
Germens admit thier offense and not treat Hitler as nation hero.

Apart from the far-right in Germany.


But Japanese build the Yasukuni Shrine and put all war criminal in it ,they treat them as nation heros and pay homage to Yasukuni Jinjia everday

How many vist the shrine each day?

How about Mao?


If you are Chinese(just if), will you hope to peace with them?

Yes. I wouldn't like them, but I wouldn't want WAR because of a non-violent action like visiting a shrine.

667medic
23 Sep 06,, 14:58
Germens admit thier offense and not treat Hitler as nation hero. But Japanese build the Yasukuni Shrine and put all war criminal in it ,they treat them as nation heros and pay homage to Yasukuni Jinjia everday ,If you go to Japan ,you will find everyone does so ,old men ,adults ,childern , and even their premier . If you are Chinese(just if), will you hope to peace with them?

Comparing a Western country with an Asian country is an apples-oranges comparison.
Western countries have no concept of Confucianism or saving face ("mienze"). Japan is a strictly confucian society.
BTW how about China. Inspite of all the atrocities done by Mao, he is still 70% correct, 30% wrong:rolleyes:

wangrui961
23 Sep 06,, 15:03
Chairman Mao killed more Chinese than the Japanese and yet he is stilled revered at Tiananmen Square.
Thousands of Tibetans were massacred by the PLA, so can they also "war" with the Chinese.
And how about all the Vietnamese, Indians and Russians killed by the PLA when you "war" with your neighbouring countries......

1, Mao didn't kill Chinese and we don't love him ,we love Deng Xiaoping.
2,It is the civil war ,the south also fighted the north in the US civil war. so many were killed too.
3,can we kill Russians? the can destroy our country in 30 minutes by nulear.
4, some war with neighbouring countries ,indeed ,did we kill the common people? Each country once wared with neighbouring countries.

wangrui961
23 Sep 06,, 15:13
Apart from the far-right in Germany.
How many vist the shrine each day?
How about Mao?
Yes. I wouldn't like them, but I wouldn't want WAR because of a non-violent action like visiting a shrine.

1, If you go there ,you can find you can't counter how many.
2,Don't say Mao ,we don't love him ,he just know how to civil war and don't care our nation goods.He also know little about economy .(he is a civil war merchine and just konw social ideology) We love Deng xiaoping indeed.
3,Do you know what Janpanese are doing? their military expenditure is the second in the word , they view the Yasukuni Shrine everyday and tell their childern their "nation heros" were killed by Chinese. So you would dream of peace?

Officer of Engineers
23 Sep 06,, 15:35
Kid,

You're dangerously getting to be a troll. The answer to your question is that the US has a defence pact with Japan. Pakistan and North Korea have no such thing with China.

wangrui961
23 Sep 06,, 15:59
Kid,

You're dangerously getting to be a troll. The answer to your question is that the US has a defence pact with Japan. Pakistan and North Korea have no such thing with China.

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Thanks , honor to receive your reply
But we are not young men who just can angry and angry
we research the plotics everyday and we are clever enough:biggrin: :biggrin:
I know the defence pact ,but my sir ,do you notice the defence treaty deosn't inlude the Okinawa area? And the treaty just say defense,not assault.
We would beat them back and cut their transportion line . Why should we make Uncle Sam angry? we will sit down and look japan dying.....
If Japan strike us ,we will bomb them back to the stone age . If US help them invading China ,we will beat back.( I love US ,the example of the world)

HistoricalDavid
23 Sep 06,, 16:29
If Japan strike us ,we will bomb them back to the stone age .

Ha. What will you use to do this? Will your amazing underpowered H-6s get past the F-15Js and air defence destroyers?

Now if you're talking nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles, that's another story. But that's not 'bombing'.


If US help them invading China ,we will beat back.

I'd bet good money Japan won't be invading anyone anytime soon.


1, If you go there ,you can find you can't counter how many.

That is not a correct, objective method of judgment.


2,Don't say Mao ,we don't love him ,he just know how to civil war and don't care our nation goods.He also know little about economy .(he is a civil war merchine and just konw social ideology) We love Deng xiaoping indeed.

I think it's pretty much true that you're a nationalist, proclaiming China this, China that. Considering he's one of the most famous Chinese people ever, how can you disclaim Mao like that?


3,Do you know what Janpanese are doing? their military expenditure is the second in the word ,

That's because their economy is the second-largest in the world. As a percentage of GDP, their defence spending is extremely low - hovering near 1%, maybe 1.5%, I believe. In addition, their doctrine is heavily defensive, with no aircraft carriers, for example, despite the fact that France, Britain, Spain and Italy, all much smaller than Japan, have them.

I believe China have overtaken according to some figures, anyway.


they view the Yasukuni Shrine everyday and tell their childern their "nation heros" were killed by Chinese.

Generalisations galore.


So you would dream of peace?

Considering I've answered all of your points, and you haven't answered many of mine, YES.

Triple C
23 Sep 06,, 16:45
If you know what did they do in the worldwar2 in China and how they kill chinese savagely ,you may forgive me . Do you know how may Chinese were killd by Japanese? 35 millions .And do you know how they do today ? They say the war is defense and refused to admit their offences . They also treat the war criminal as their national hero . There was a race between the two japanese on killing Chinese , one killed 100 and the other killed 107 ,my grandfather's father was one of the 207. And now the two japanese are in Yasukuni Shrine as hero , The japanese pay homage to Yasukuni Jinjia everyday. If you are me ?what will you do? be happy and get on well with them and view the Yasukuni Shrine very glad?
yet ,I am Nationalist freak , but i want to know ,why the war criminal are as heros? their hands are stained with the blood of our people ,and Jpanese pay homage to Yasukuni Jinjia everyday . What does this mean? Does this mean they love peace? Does this mean liberty?Does this mean equality ?Does this mean universal love?

:eek: Invade Mongolia first will you? Since we are killing entire races for something their grand daddies did, why not ALL THEY WAY back?

astralis
23 Sep 06,, 17:11
historicaldavid, medic667,

one point here. in chinese thinking, mao did not purposefully kill those chinese, with most of them dying from ignorance or overambition, and not out of malevolence. they freely acknowledge his faults, but they acknowledge that without mao, china would certainly not have emerged as a power to be reckoned with.

the japanese, on the other hand, quite literally killed chinese for fun and profit.

just the fact that yasukuni exists is enough to raise the ire of any chinese. it's as if the germans put a cathedral in berlin that celebrated the holocaust, and swore that it was indeed poland that overran germany in 1939 and pushed them into war. and then imagine angela merkel going to it, and "praying for their spirits". as an AMERICAN, i'm already incensed by yasukuni, simply because it blames america for WWII, and justifies the actions carried out by the IJA (with the worst actions conspiciously absent from the displays).

of course, wangrui crosses the line by advocating war. let him be the first to invade japan, i say. :biggrin:

SLASH,

the jerries had nothin' on the japanese. however many the germans killed, the japanese did one better. often in crueler ways. i think it says something when the japanese easily killed more chinese than hitler's "scientific" death camps killed jews.

HistoricalDavid
23 Sep 06,, 18:10
one point here. in chinese thinking, mao did not purposefully kill those chinese, with most of them dying from ignorance or overambition, and not out of malevolence.

Of course not entirely out of malevolence, I'm sure - just the completely irrational attempted transformation of an economy into a lopsided one (too much steel, e.g.)

His good intentions don't compensate the stupidity of that particular venture.

The quote I always remember is "Half of China may have to die if she is to become a power" or words to that effect.


they freely acknowledge his faults,

Understatement of the century?


but they acknowledge that without mao, china would certainly not have emerged as a power to be reckoned with.

How so?


just the fact that yasukuni exists is enough to raise the ire of any chinese. it's as if the germans put a cathedral in berlin that celebrated the holocaust, and swore that it was indeed poland that overran germany in 1939 and pushed them into war.

That's true. You just can't underestimate the mighty power of the Polish horseback cavalry in 1939 and how it very nearly brought the poor defenceless Panzers to their knees.


and then imagine angela merkel going to it, and "praying for their spirits". as an AMERICAN, i'm already incensed by yasukuni, simply because it blames america for WWII, and justifies the actions carried out by the IJA (with the worst actions conspiciously absent from the displays).

You'll get no argument from me there, but here's the crux as you put it:


of course, wangrui crosses the line by advocating war. let him be the first to invade japan, i say. :biggrin:

Revisionist talk and visiting shrines is cheap. Advocating war for the purposes of revenge is not.


the jerries had nothin' on the japanese. however many the germans killed, the japanese did one better. often in crueler ways. i think it says something when the japanese easily killed more chinese than hitler's "scientific" death camps killed jews.

'Worldwide savagery Competition 1930/40s' = not something I want to talk about.

YellowFever
23 Sep 06,, 21:56
If Japan strike us ,we will bomb them back to the stone age . If US help them invading China ,we will beat back.( I love US ,the example of the world)

It'll be easy to deal with China. Just outlaw Photoshop and you guys won't have any decent weapons.

brak
23 Sep 06,, 21:58
It'll be easy to deal with China. Just outlaw Photoshop and you guys won't have any decent weapons.

truer words were never spoken:biggrin:

AntiSatellite
23 Sep 06,, 23:17
Dude have you heard an army called Nazi.They were even worse than Japan.


Many people from the Indian National Army had become traitors to their own people and sold out to the nazis and Japanese fascists because they wanted to beat the British. However the Asians soon discovered that the Japanese were far more evil than their former European colonial masters.

The Nazis were far more kind to their Pows than the Imperial Japanese, Allied POWs had a death rate of about 3% in German POW camps. The Japanese took Korean sex slaves to rape to death, the Japanese worked many French to death and killed many Indians. Prisoners held by Japanese armed forces were subject to brutal treatment, including medical experimentation, starvation and be-heading contests. The atrocities committed by Japanese were physically worse than in the Nazi, but because the United States was soon in the Cold War and starting an the arms race against the Soviet Union ( which India was always seen as a Soviet Stooge ) they decided it would be better not to convict the war criminals in order to get information on the Japanese WMD program.

Despite all the crap Japan did in the past, I still don't think China should attack them.

wangrui961
24 Sep 06,, 03:02
Considering I've answered all of your points, and you haven't answered many of mine, YES.


Sorry ,but you asked too much , I will work to death if I answer all of your questions due to may poor English ,I must use the dictionary helping me.......:biggrin: :biggrin:
and may i choose some of them and answer?


Ha. What will you use to do this? Will your amazing underpowered H-6s get past the F-15Js and air defence destroyers?

Now if you're talking nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles, that's another story. But that's not 'bombing'.

Wtihout nuclear ,our missiles can bomb thenm back to the stone age too. Don't forget our DF force in the northwest which was used to defense USSR.Now ,we build friendship to Rssia and the force can destory Japan,remeber, without nuclear.


I'd bet good money Japan won't be invading anyone anytime soon.


please go to Japan to have a look , their force said destory our navey in 20 minutes.( I don't think they can):biggrin:


I think it's pretty much true that you're a nationalist, proclaiming China this, China that. Considering he's one of the most famous Chinese people ever, how can you disclaim Mao like that?

1,The CCP liberate us not by Mao ,by people.
2,by the way ,if we not civil war , can Jpanese rised? US would not help 3Japanese. Mr MAO seemd like to liberate all the world. Thanks to God,we are not USSR ,or Mao will throw nuclear to US and liberate Americans from imperialism goverment.
3, anyone against him will be killed.some generals devoted their life to beat Japanese ,But Mao said them were war criminals because they against CCP in the civil war and put this into history book. We don't care who was right in the civil war ,but we love people who defense our nation.
4,Mao knew few about economy , he just know " culture reveloution". he force the clloage students and scientists to the farms and said get close to peasant brothers........
.......
........


That's because their economy is the second-largest in the world. As a percentage of GDP, their defence spending is extremely low - hovering near 1%, maybe 1.5%, I believe. In addition, their doctrine is heavily defensive, with no aircraft carriers, for example, despite the fact that France, Britain, Spain and Italy, all much smaller than Japan, have them.

Japan was beated in the world war 2,they can't have force due to their carter
and international laws.

and ate last ,US will never war for Japan, what will they get?
and war with China means what? I think US know.
we will afford any ,no matter how much to destory Japanese militarists( but I think few Japanese were not militarists:biggrin: :biggrin: )

astralis
24 Sep 06,, 03:40
historicaldavid,



How so?

chiang kai-shek was not the most competent of men. it says something that the chinese picked the likes of mao over chiang kai-shek. his method for ruling the country, as demonstrated from the 20s onwards, was a fine mix of bribery, nepotism, more-than-occasional intimidation, and generally letting his rapacious underlings "rule" the country. mao did all these things, but the difference can be seen clearly in this:

chiang had such a poor feel for the heartbeat of the country, that he was kidnapped in the middle of the anti-japanese war by one of his own men, to force him to cooperate with the communists. an entire faction of the KMT went over to the japanese, under the puppet wang jing-wei. he led his troops so poorly, that a very badly-weakened IJA kicked the stuffing out of the chinese army in operation ichigo in half a month (mid-late april 1944)- despite hundreds of millions of dollars of Lend-Lease flowing into china.

then take mao. barely a year after beating chiang kai-shek, he had such political legitimacy and rallied the country to a sufficient degree that he was able to credibly challenge the US...and eventually stalemate it (no easy feat, even when the US was using a fraction of its strength).

a huge difference. chiang had some 20+ years of rule on china, but the china of 1945 was not substantially stronger than the china of 1925. the china of 1965, though, WAS substantially stronger than the china of 1945. not that all (or even most) credit can be given to mao, of course, but still, the difference in leadership is quite vast.

wangrui961
24 Sep 06,, 04:43
historicaldavid,



chiang kai-shek was not the most competent of men. it says something that the chinese picked the likes of mao over chiang kai-shek. his method for ruling the country, as demonstrated from the 20s onwards, was a fine mix of bribery, nepotism, more-than-occasional intimidation, and generally letting his rapacious underlings "rule" the country. mao did all these things, but the difference can be seen clearly in this:

chiang had such a poor feel for the heartbeat of the country, that he was kidnapped in the middle of the anti-japanese war by one of his own men, to force him to cooperate with the communists. an entire faction of the KMT went over to the japanese, under the puppet wang jing-wei. he led his troops so poorly, that a very badly-weakened IJA kicked the stuffing out of the chinese army in operation ichigo in half a month (mid-late april 1944)- despite hundreds of millions of dollars of Lend-Lease flowing into china.

then take mao. barely a year after beating chiang kai-shek, he had such political legitimacy and rallied the country to a sufficient degree that he was able to credibly challenge the US...and eventually stalemate it (no easy feat, even when the US was using a fraction of its strength).

a huge difference. chiang had some 20+ years of rule on china, but the china of 1945 was not substantially stronger than the china of 1925. the china of 1965, though, WAS substantially stronger than the china of 1945. not that all (or even most) credit can be given to mao, of course, but still, the difference in leadership is quite vast.
I am in CCP ,but we should face the truth .i like Jiang more than Mao
1925-1945China was in war.
The civil war between CCP and the goverment ,The war between warlords ,The war against the Jpanese(Jpanese's invade help the CCP)...and so on, In fact Jiang lead us win the war against(with help of US) ,not Mao ,Mao is good at cilvil war.
1945-1965 ,indeed China get great progress,but with the help with USSR.

Officer of Engineers
24 Sep 06,, 05:14
Sorry ,but you asked too much , I will work to death if I answer all of your questions due to may poor English ,I must use the dictionary helping me.......:biggrin: :biggrin:
and may i choose some of them and answer?

Then, I suggest you go back to a CCP forum because frankly, we have enough of your lies.


Wtihout nuclear ,our missiles can bomb thenm back to the stone age too. Don't forget our DF force in the northwest which was used to defense USSR.Now ,we build friendship to Rssia and the force can destory Japan,remeber, without nuclear.

Oh horse pucky. Even during the worst of the Cold War days, the 2nd Artillery Force had less than 100 rockets to hit the USSR with. 100 rockets ain't going to send Japan back to the stone age.


please go to Japan to have a look , their force said destory our navey in 20 minutes.( I don't think they can):biggrin:

That's right. Their navy can sink your navy without breaking a sweat.


1,The CCP liberate us not by Mao ,by people.

Oh yes, that big picture in front of Tianamen Square is there because everybody like that big fat guy.


2,by the way ,if we not civil war , can Jpanese rised? US would not help 3Japanese. Mr MAO seemd like to liberate all the world. Thanks to God,we are not USSR ,or Mao will throw nuclear to US and liberate Americans from imperialism goverment.

Oh drop the act, Mao was scared crapless by Brzehnev and had to beg the Americans for help. Had it not been for Nixon, northern China would be a radioactive wasteland.


3, anyone against him will be killed.some generals devoted their life to beat Japanese ,But Mao said them were war criminals because they against CCP in the civil war and put this into history book. We don't care who was right in the civil war ,but we love people who defense our nation.

By attacking others? Here is a statistic for you. More Chinese soldiers died on foreign soil than any of the Big Five since the end of WWII.


4,Mao knew few about economy , he just know " culture reveloution". he force the clloage students and scientists to the farms and said get close to peasant brothers

And you guys didn't get rid of him for that sheer insanity.


Japan was beated in the world war 2,they can't have force due to their carter
and international laws.

and ate last ,US will never war for Japan, what will they get?
and war with China means what? I think US know.
we will afford any ,no matter how much to destory Japanese militarists( but I think few Japanese were not militarists:biggrin: :biggrin: )

Get it through your head. The US will defend Japan. It's part of their defence pact. And your read on Okinawa is sheer lunacy. Okinawa is the home of the 7th Fleet and the 8th Army.

starsiege
24 Sep 06,, 05:37
Many people from the Indian National Army had become traitors to their own people and sold out to the nazis and Japanese fascists because they wanted to beat the British. However the Asians soon discovered that the Japanese were far more evil than their former European colonial masters.

The Nazis were far more kind to their Pows than the Imperial Japanese, Allied POWs had a death rate of about 3% in German POW camps. The Japanese took Korean sex slaves to rape to death, the Japanese worked many French to death and killed many Indians. Prisoners held by Japanese armed forces were subject to brutal treatment, including medical experimentation, starvation and be-heading contests. The atrocities committed by Japanese were physically worse than in the Nazi, but because the United States was soon in the Cold War and starting an the arms race against the Soviet Union ( which India was always seen as a Soviet Stooge ) they decided it would be better not to convict the war criminals in order to get information on the Japanese WMD program.

Despite all the crap Japan did in the past, I still don't think China should attack them.


i doubt china, a country wich is not democratic, should go about setting historical stuff right. they can have a better start by letting the people have voting rights, and by not selling the body organs of criminals sentenced to death

YellowFever
24 Sep 06,, 05:38
By attacking others? Here is a statistic for you. More Chinese soldiers died on foreign soil than any of the Big Five since the end of WWII.


Not as a challenge, Colonel , but rather because I was ignorant of this fact but,

where, how and when?

wangrui961
24 Sep 06,, 05:40
Then, I suggest you go back to a CCP forum because frankly, we have enough of your lies.



Oh horse pucky. Even during the worst of the Cold War days, the 2nd Artillery Force had less than 100 rockets to hit the USSR with. 100 rockets ain't going to send Japan back to the stone age.



That's right. Their navy can sink your navy without breaking a sweat.



Oh yes, that big picture in front of Tianamen Square is there because everybody like that big fat guy.



Oh drop the act, Mao was scared crapless by Brzehnev and had to beg the Americans for help. Had it not been for Nixon, northern China would be a radioactive wasteland.



By attacking others? Here is a statistic for you. More Chinese soldiers died on foreign soil than any of the Big Five since the end of WWII.



And you guys didn't get rid of him for that sheer insanity.



Get it through your head. The US will defend Japan. It's part of their defence pact. And your read on Okinawa is sheer lunacy. Okinawa is the home of the 7th Fleet and the 8th Army.

Thanks ,you teach me a lot
Here is the fourm for dubte,isn't it? everyone has faults ,isn't it ,so do I.
People awlays make progress by lern lessons from others ,and I learn from you. I also find my mistakes by your ctritze.So don't ask me to leave here ,ok?(In fact , i will prepare for the exam and will leave here for a long time).

Yes ,Japan has pact with US ,powerful allience .so they can treat war criminal as their national heroes and hurt us as they want .Why US defend them? Do Americans love war criminal ? Germen never treat Hitler as their nation hero . The European countries will never peace with them if they treat Hitler as their nation hero. Europeans are humen and we Chinese are not?
At last ,sir, you should never underestimate the China's strength, we are not weak as the past. If we are weak as you thought , the CCP would be overthrow by US XXyears ago. We still in China and we don't afriad of any power ,US and Japan included.
wish you happy and thanks for teaching me a lot .

Taihang
24 Sep 06,, 11:29
Thanks ,you teach me a lot
Here is the fourm for dubte,isn't it? everyone has faults ,isn't it ,so do I.
People awlays make progress by lern lessons from others ,and I learn from you. I also find my mistakes by your ctritze.So don't ask me to leave here ,ok?(In fact , i will prepare for the exam and will leave here for a long time).

Yes ,Japan has pact with US ,powerful allience .so they can treat war criminal as their national heroes and hurt us as they want .Why US defend them? Do Americans love war criminal ? Germen never treat Hitler as their nation hero . The European countries will never peace with them if they treat Hitler as their nation hero. Europeans are humen and we Chinese are not?
At last ,sir, you should never underestimate the China's strength, we are not weak as the past. If we are weak as you thought , the CCP would be overthrow by US XXyears ago. We still in China and we don't afriad of any power ,US and Japan included.
wish you happy and thanks for teaching me a lot .

Please stop playing big or saying "we Chinese" kind of thing. It's a basic attitude you should have learnt before your posts.

astralis
24 Sep 06,, 17:10
yellowfever,


Not as a challenge, Colonel , but rather because I was ignorant of this fact but,

where, how and when?

mainly korea and vietnam, 1950-1953, 1979 and 1984 respectively (although a few died as military "advisers" to the NVA during the vietnam war as well).

Taihang
24 Sep 06,, 20:05
yellowfever,



mainly korea and vietnam, 1950-1953, 1979 and 1984 respectively (although a few died as military "advisers" to the NVA during the vietnam war as well).

The statement by Officer of Engineers was incorrect. More Chinese soldiers were killed in the civil war after WWII.

Officer of Engineers
24 Sep 06,, 20:22
The statement by Officer of Engineers was incorrect. More Chinese soldiers were killed in the civil war after WWII.

Wrong context. More Chinese soldiers died on foriegn soil THAN the other Big 5. That is to say that the PRC lost more soldiers outside of her borders than the US, USSR/Russia, the UK, or France lost outside of theirs.

Bill
24 Sep 06,, 20:33
If war begins between China and Janpan for the conflicts in east China sea, what will happened .
China will get it's ass kicked badly.

Bill
24 Sep 06,, 20:35
Please seek psychiatric advice before your condition worsens. Your quote is that of a deranged person. I have avoided answering your posts before, as due to your language problems I have never understood just what it was you were trying to say. Now I know . You are as bigotted and ill-informed as some of the religious freaks have been, and just as disagreeable.
He has damned good reason to hate the Japanese.

WTF right do you have to call him a bigot for wanting revenge- or at least an appology?

YellowFever
24 Sep 06,, 20:38
yellowfever,



mainly korea and vietnam, 1950-1953, 1979 and 1984 respectively (although a few died as military "advisers" to the NVA during the vietnam war as well).

Duh.....how could I have forgotten korea..LoL

Thanks.

glyn
24 Sep 06,, 20:44
He has damned good reason to hate the Japanese.


Really? I suppose all the European nations should be in uproar because they were invaded and colonised by the Romans? Or the Danes?

Canmoore
24 Sep 06,, 22:43
Thanks ,you teach me a lot
Here is the fourm for dubte,isn't it? everyone has faults ,isn't it ,so do I.
People awlays make progress by lern lessons from others ,and I learn from you. I also find my mistakes by your ctritze.So don't ask me to leave here ,ok?(In fact , i will prepare for the exam and will leave here for a long time).

Yes ,Japan has pact with US ,powerful allience .so they can treat war criminal as their national heroes and hurt us as they want .Why US defend them? Do Americans love war criminal ? Germen never treat Hitler as their nation hero . The European countries will never peace with them if they treat Hitler as their nation hero. Europeans are humen and we Chinese are not?
At last ,sir, you should never underestimate the China's strength, we are not weak as the past. If we are weak as you thought , the CCP would be overthrow by US XXyears ago. We still in China and we don't afriad of any power ,US and Japan included.
wish you happy and thanks for teaching me a lot .

If you are not afraid of American streangth then why not end the sharade known as taiwan once and for all? You say that you arnt afraid of American streangth, but you are afraid to invade a tiny island that refuses to be pushed around by big bad china...why is this? ..ill tell you why in one word.

America

astralis
24 Sep 06,, 23:50
glyn,



Really? I suppose all the European nations should be in uproar because they were invaded and colonised by the Romans? Or the Danes?

last time i checked, the roman empire and the vikings weren't around 50 years ago, with their apologists still in government and enacting policy.

last time i checked, the europeans in existence then weren't in existence now.

last i checked, neither the romans nor the vikings slaughtered, tortured, and enslaved on anywhere close to the same level the IJA did.

wake me up if you find out i'm wrong, alright?

Officer of Engineers
25 Sep 06,, 01:18
Thanks ,you teach me a lot
Here is the fourm for dubte,isn't it? everyone has faults ,isn't it ,so do I.

Your biggest fault thus far is posting false information.


So don't ask me to leave here ,ok?(In fact , i will prepare for the exam and will leave here for a long time).

Then learn about how this forum function. It functions on verifiable facts; not
on what you want things to be.


Yes ,Japan has pact with US ,powerful allience .so they can treat war criminal as their national heroes

That's their problem, not yours. Don't make it your problem


and hurt us as they want .

Oh horse pucky, they can't hurt you and they know they can't you.


Why US defend them?

Because they have a treaty and because they don't want anybody else having Japan.


Do Americans love war criminal ?

Get real. They've hanged Tojo.


Germen never treat Hitler as their nation hero . The European countries will never peace with them if they treat Hitler as their nation hero.

No, they just treat Stalin as their national hero.


Europeans are humen and we Chinese are not?

So you want to kill Japanese to prove you're human. I've seen this kind of hatre but at least be honest about it. You want to kill Japanese just because they're Japanese. I don't believe you for one second that you hate their war criminals. You were not even alive.


At last ,sir, you should never underestimate the China's strength,

After seeing what you have posted, I assure you I know more about China's strength than you do. I've spent decades studying the PLA. Tell me, do you the difference between a Chinese brigade and a Chinese regiment? Do you know how China was prepared to fight the USSR? Do you know how the PLA fought the 1st Sino-Vietnam War? Do you know how they fought the 2nd Sino-Vietnam War? Do you know what is brigadization? Do you know how the 2nd Artillery Force plan to fight a conventional war? A nuclear war?


we are not weak as the past.

You're not as strong as you were in 1962.


If we are weak as you thought , the CCP would be overthrow by US XXyears ago.

Oh get off it, the US has no interest in overthrowing the CCP.


We still in China and we don't afriad of any power ,US and Japan included.

Nobody listens to China either. All I'm hearing is what you WISH China to be. Not what she is. When the Americans bomb your embassy in Belgrade, Yugoslavia? What happenned? Everybody said sorry - THAT'S IT. The Russians sent ONE motorized infantry company (200 soldiers) and they get to co-command a sector. The Chinese got nothing.

The EP-3 Incident. China demanded that her EEZ be respected as her territory (the Americans and everybody else ignored you), the US stop her reconaisance flights (you call them spying), the Americans are still flying. China demanded an apology. The US expressed their regrets.

China is a very important country but son, I've spent my life staring down the USSR. China doesn't scare me one bit after that.

TopHatter
25 Sep 06,, 02:25
{Every thing that OoE said}
That was like watching a small misbehaving child get spanked REALLY hard. :redface:

lemontree
25 Sep 06,, 05:49
what can NK do? Throw guided missiles to Japan and initiates nuclear war?
Pak can help us to cut the oil to Japan ,their ports could spport our submarines.

How will those subs get past the Mallaca Straits? The US navy and Indian navy will chew up anything in Pakistani ports.

glyn
25 Sep 06,, 09:26
glyn,



last time i checked, the roman empire and the vikings weren't around 50 years ago, with their apologists still in government and enacting policy.

last time i checked, the europeans in existence then weren't in existence now.

last i checked, neither the romans nor the vikings slaughtered, tortured, and enslaved on anywhere close to the same level the IJA did.

wake me up if you find out i'm wrong, alright?


The point I was responding to was the originator wanted to go to war with Japan for the actions performed on China in the 1930s and 1940s. The people responsible for them are (mostly) no longer living. Should we hold their descendants culpable for the deeds of their fathers and grandfathers? I don't think you hold that view.
Nations come and go. Borders are set, then moved - sometimes removed. Times change. One of my dearest friends is German. His father and mine were in WW2. They would have killed each other had they met between 1939 - 1945. His grandfather and mine fought in WW1. They would have killed each other had they met between 1914 -1918. Now Germany and the UK are in the same clubs, NATO & the EU, and have been at peace for over 60 years.

Bill
25 Sep 06,, 16:53
Really? I suppose all the European nations should be in uproar because they were invaded and colonised by the Romans? Or the Danes?
Hmmm, the roman empre ended over a thousand years ago....the Japanese a mere 50 and change.

And the Japanese were- oh by the way- AT LEAST as brutal. (and probably far more so).

He is perfectly entitled to hate the Japanese, whether you like it or not. Being a veteran of the 31st Infantry regiment, i am none too fond of them either.

I certainly do not advocate renewed hostilities against Japan, but i'm not about to play hand-holding games and swap spit with them either.

astralis
25 Sep 06,, 17:31
glyn,


The point I was responding to was the originator wanted to go to war with Japan for the actions performed on China in the 1930s and 1940s. The people responsible for them are (mostly) no longer living. Should we hold their descendants culpable for the deeds of their fathers and grandfathers? I don't think you hold that view.
Nations come and go. Borders are set, then moved - sometimes removed. Times change. One of my dearest friends is German. His father and mine were in WW2. They would have killed each other had they met between 1939 - 1945. His grandfather and mine fought in WW1. They would have killed each other had they met between 1914 -1918. Now Germany and the UK are in the same clubs, NATO & the EU, and have been at peace for over 60 years.

the difference is, germany has shown itself completely repentant. references to naziism and hitler are banned there. people get an absolute sense of revulsion there if you speak of either one.

in japan, we have right-wing nationalists still with a damn good deal of power in the government. textbooks WHITEWASH and sometimes plain lie about japanese involvement in the "Greater East Asia War", as they call it (and the right-wingers want to kick it up a notch still). politicians that advocate changing the textbooks to reflect, oh, history, or re-examining the past are condemned by these same right-wingers. books that expound how the "bataan death march wasn't so bad", tojo's grand-daughter is on a (profitable) crusade to revive her granddad's wonderful memory, books 'demonstrating' that the nanjing massacre never occurred- these are all best-sellers.

yasukuni is still visited by hundreds of thousands, if not millions. to show you how DIM they are, after the chinese and the koreans and the southeast asians protested the fact that 13 Class-A war criminals are HONORED there, they translated their displays that claim that the US started the war from japanese/english to chinese.

the only reason why japan isn't catching more flak from asians (chinese or otherwise) is because they have by and large stuck to a fairly pacifist policy since the days of WWII. if tokyo ever throws this off without first completely re-examining and living up to the past- japan's going to be in for a hot time.

HistoricalDavid
25 Sep 06,, 18:00
He's perfectly entitled to hate the Japanese who attend those war shrines. But not only does he speak of the Japanese as some monolithic entity all bearing responsibility for all of the others' actions past and presents, he advocates war on that basis, which is the biggest bone of contention anyway.

Officer of Engineers
25 Sep 06,, 18:10
David,

The point here is that you cannot ignore that hatre. You have to acknowledge it exists for whatever reason. You have to deal with that hatre and find ways not to let it explode.

So he advocates war. Show him the kind of monster he needs to be in order to goto war. If he is that kind of monster, kill him.

kams
25 Sep 06,, 19:06
New Leader of Japan (http://voanews.com/english/2006-09-25-voa7.cfm)


A day before he is to be selected prime minister, Shinzo Abe has shuffled the leadership of the ruling Liberal Democratic Party. The appointments provide Japan with its first hint of the Abe Administration's priorities.

Shinzo Abe gave a strong signal Monday that his administration will not veer far from the policies of his predecessor, outgoing Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi.

A day before parliament is due to elect Abe to succeed Mr. Koizumi, the new leader of the Liberal Democratic Party appointed his top political executives. The man receiving the most attention - both for his past record and what his appointment says about Abe's future policies - is 62-year-old Hidenao Nakagawa, a scandal-tainted veteran of two previous administrations.

Nakagawa resigned as chief cabinet secretary five years ago after he was linked to a top right-wing extremist, and an alleged extramarital affair with a bar hostess was publicized.

Still, during Mr. Koizumi's five years in office, Nakagawa was instrumental in promoting the prime minister's spending cuts and other structural reforms. His appointment to the secretary-general's post is seen as a sign that the new prime minister intends to continue with the Koizumi reforms.

Analyst Kenichi Nagura, who monitors Japanese politics for Medley Global Advisors, says one of Nakagawa's early jobs will be to limit damage to the L.D.P in next year's upper house elections - which will be the first major electoral test for Abe's administration.

"Many people say the L.D.P. will lose the election. The L.D.P. secretary-general is in charge of the election, so Nakagawa will put his effort on the election," Nagura says.

Nakagawa shares Abe's hawkish views on North Korea, and his desire to revise the pacifist constitution imposed on Japan by the United States after World War Two. The appointment makes him second in the party after Abe himself.
On Tuesday, shortly after being selected as prime minister, Abe is to name his cabinet members. Analysts say it will likely include a number of familiar faces from the Koizumi Administration - a further sign that nothing significantly new is expected regarding domestic policies with the change of administrations.

Now if Abe is to continue the policies of Mr.Koizumi, what are the chances of Sino-Japan relations improving? At the same time there are mixed signals coming from Abe. He is also for holding summits with China and South Korea. Japanese Foreign minister Taro Aso and Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Dai Bingguo held meetings in Tokyo .

HistoricalDavid
25 Sep 06,, 19:33
David,

The point here is that you cannot ignore that hatre. You have to acknowledge it exists for whatever reason. You have to deal with that hatre and find ways not to let it explode.

I'm not ignoring the hatred, nor am I denying its origins. But I am denying it being justified. As for defusing it, one side of that coin has been partially addressed - refer to Wiki's long list of apology statements. As for eliminating the revisionist textbooks and shrine-visits, I confess I'm neither an Japanese educational expert nor a shrine expert, but it doesn't take a genius to recognise their moral bankruptcy and the need to fix it.


So he advocates war. Show him the kind of monster he needs to be in order to goto war. If he is that kind of monster, kill him.

I think I have in the intellectual sense - he certainly hasn't addressed the 'shrine-visits and worth going to war, eh?' beyond the emotional counter, "what would you do?" which I think I've answered quite personally with the grandfather-dying-after-two-days-of-internal-bleeding and me-still-not-wanting-Russian-democide matter.

But killing him in the military sense? Not only am I neither enlisted nor commissioned, I also believe in free speech - including the right of super-nationalists to advocate war. A free society reaches its most profound expression when it protects actions considered stupid, unpopular or both. I don't know about Chinese popularity for war against Japan (especially once informed of the likely US-related terrible effects of such a conflict) but his want for revenge is pretty stupid and irrational at the moment.

AntiSatellite
27 Sep 06,, 23:55
Many people from the Indian National Army had become traitors to their own people and sold out to the nazis and Japanese fascists because they wanted to beat the British. However the Asians soon discovered that the Japanese were far more evil than their former European colonial masters.

The Nazis were far more kind to their Pows than the Imperial Japanese, Allied POWs had a death rate of about 3% in German POW camps. The Japanese took Korean sex slaves to rape to death, the Japanese worked many French to death and killed many Indians. Prisoners held by Japanese armed forces were subject to brutal treatment, including medical experimentation, starvation and be-heading contests. The atrocities committed by Japanese were physically worse than in the Nazi, but because the United States was soon in the Cold War and starting an the arms race against the Soviet Union ( which India was always seen as a Soviet Stooge ) they decided it would be better not to convict the war criminals in order to get information on the Japanese WMD program.

Despite all the crap Japan did in the past, I still don't think China should attack them.

i doubt china, a country wich is not democratic, should go about setting historical stuff right. they can have a better start by letting the people have voting rights



I don't really give much of a crap about democracy in Japan or China, Democracy in Asia is a joke
neither of them want to move away from their totalitarian single-party states.

Sparks
01 Oct 06,, 17:39
Is it just me or wangrui961 is not who he says "she" is. He shows the maturity and comman knowlage of a 10 year old boy.When I read her post it reminds me of when I read Anthem by Ann Rym for english class.We all are one common ownership, saying we insted of I, and praticly brain washed. Can somebody ban her and get it over with? oh I forgot the spaming of tacky emocons :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: ;) :tongue:

edit: I also forgot she claimed to have seen and taken pictures of the (fictional) top secret j-14 plane.

YellowFever
02 Oct 06,, 00:37
China is a very important country but son, I've spent my life staring down the USSR. China doesn't scare me one bit after that.

:eek:

It was like seeing someone pull the wings off a fly...

AntiSatellite
02 Oct 06,, 03:16
Many people from the Indian National Army had become traitors to their own people and sold out to the nazis and Japanese fascists because they wanted to beat the British. However the Asians soon discovered that the Japanese were far more evil than their former European colonial masters.

The Nazis were far more kind to their Pows than the Imperial Japanese, Allied POWs had a death rate of about 3% in German POW camps. The Japanese took Korean sex slaves to rape to death, the Japanese worked many French to death and killed many Indians. Prisoners held by Japanese armed forces were subject to brutal treatment, including medical experimentation, starvation and be-heading contests. The atrocities committed by Japanese were physically worse than in the Nazi, but because the United States was soon in the Cold War and starting an the arms race against the Soviet Union ( which India was always seen as a Soviet Stooge ) they decided it would be better not to convict the war criminals in order to get information on the Japanese WMD program.

Despite all the crap Japan did in the past, I still don't think China should attack them.
they can have a better start by letting the people have voting rights

US style Democracy doesn't work so well in Asia, in fact most of them would rather a single-party state.

gilgamesh
02 Oct 06,, 03:34
Your Govt feels differently. Japan has heavily invested in the manufacturing sector of your economy. If China really cared about such(war shrine) issues, it would not have traded with Japan.

That being said, Japan is an exclusivist and even a racist society.

starsiege
02 Oct 06,, 08:18
US style Democracy doesn't work so well in Asia, in fact most of them would rather a single-party state.

ever heard of india? it has hundreds of parties but has been demorcratic ever since its independance. and is the largest democracy in the world population wise.

ever heard of srilanka? the first country in ASIA to give voting rights to all its citizens? and the first country in the WORLD to have a women as the head of state?

take some history classes:) before u post further on this subject:biggrin:

Bill
02 Oct 06,, 09:28
China is a very important country but son, I've spent my life staring down the USSR. China doesn't scare me one bit after that.
Unless we did something stoopid like start a land war with them, a war with China would likely be akin to shooting ducks.

Isugan
08 Oct 06,, 05:46
Hello I have been watching this topic and would like to add a few things :

The war with China and Japan, is still going, but the rules have changed, it is an industrial war, Japan in the 70 and 80 was winning, but china hated it as Japan had money poured into them from the west as they felt guilt on the A bombs, but now the Chinese have managed to undercut Japan and is taking over the world trade market, what the Japanese did to the west is now being done to them by China! next phase will be India undercutting China!

Why do chinese still hate the Japanese? Well it will fade, but at the moment it is still in some peoples life span, and that is understandable, so the arguement that here in U.K. we should be hating the romans is a bit silly as that is a complete different era.

Also, Chinese should think, that Human rights in their own country is non existant so they cannot really shout at the Japanese too much. japan now is a different place than the 30's 40's... is China??

Why am I talking about this topic? well, I have been writing, thinking, talking on the Japanese since i was 8 or 9 yrs old, as my father was a slave labourer in Nagasaki for 3yrs 1942- 45 as a POW. and you are right that the Japanese never have met their ww2 activities head on, and dealt with it and talked about it, BUT that is very common in all Far Eastern countries, ignore it, deny it, jump over it, walk around it, bury it, anything but DEAL with it! In my travels I have seen this all too aften, in SE asia, we in the west cannot understand it. but there are some odd examples ie : the Japanese say that they cannot apologise for WW2 and their crimes, as there is no word in japanese for "sorry" and yet a few years ago a nuclear power plant had a leak, and it contaminated a local area, the power plant manager was forced to go on national Tv by the government and say SORRY to the people...so???

Germany has always carried WW2 on its shoulders and can talk of it openly, and it has made them a better people for it, good for them!

Also think about it, if there was a major war again anywhere, it wold not last long, as the armament companies could not supply the hardware quick enough to keep up with it, no they are only interested in small affairs by weak countries. hope you do not mind my input.

Officer of Engineers
08 Oct 06,, 06:12
Unless we did something stoopid like start a land war with them, a war with China would likely be akin to shooting ducks.
If we have a staging area in Northwest China, we can win that one hands down, just like the Soviets planned on their end. A thrust to Lop Nor.

Triple C
08 Oct 06,, 09:10
I can't think of a China-Japan conflict senario in which US is obliged to send ground forces. In a China-Taiwan conflict the US might need to commit some ground troops in Taiwan, but that's quite different from fighting the PLA on the mainland.

astralis
09 Oct 06,, 01:06
hi triple C,

just wondering if you were familiar with these forums.

http://forum.china-defense.com/ (China Defense Forum, OoE is a moderator there)

http://www.taiwanmilitary.org/phpBB2/ (Taiwan Military Forum)

and a shameless shill/somewhat off-topic,

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/ (China History Forum, i'm a moderator there :biggrin:)

would welcome your participation and opinion in those places.

Triple C
09 Oct 06,, 01:27
No, I am not familiar with the forums above, and I will join them soon. Thank you for the links.

gunnut
09 Oct 06,, 19:08
US won't send ground forces, or even any assets onto Taiwan itself, in any foreseeable future scenarios. China doesn't have the ability to land enough troops to threaten Taiwan's forces. What troops China can land will probably be quickly surrounded and destroyed.

Neither side has the ability to land enough forces onto the other side. The status quo will continue.

glow
10 Oct 06,, 03:04
If you know what did they do in the worldwar2 in China and how they kill chinese savagely ,you may forgive me . Do you know how may Chinese were killd by Japanese? 35 millions .And do you know how they do today ? They say the war is defense and refused to admit their offences . They also treat the war criminal as their national hero . There was a race between the two japanese on killing Chinese , one killed 100 and the other killed 107 ,my grandfather's father was one of the 207. And now the two japanese are in Yasukuni Shrine as hero , The japanese pay homage to Yasukuni Jinjia everyday. If you are me ?what will you do? be happy and get on well with them and view the Yasukuni Shrine very glad?

Sooooo...... Do you think jews should wage war on German familys cause their family members we're killed by Germans? Those German familys. I really doubt Germans think back to their family members in WWII as villains.

My family left Russia because of the Bolsheviks but you don't seem me wanting to destroy Russia either. I'de worry more about how much of an ecological disaster your country is or how in fact your ruleing class is screwing your countrymen over than how Japanese acted in WWII

gunnut
10 Oct 06,, 05:01
Sooooo...... Do you think jews should wage war on German familys cause their family members we're killed by Germans? Those German familys. I really doubt Germans think back to their family members in WWII as villains.

My family left Russia because of the Bolsheviks but you don't seem me wanting to destroy Russia either. I'de worry more about how much of an ecological disaster your country is or how in fact your ruleing class is screwing your countrymen over than how Japanese acted in WWII

But, what do you think Israel would do if Germany declares Hitler and his henchmen to be national heroes?

Germans are different than Japanese because they admitted wrong doings and appologized profusely for it.

Japanese never admitted to starting the war and never appologized to their victims. They are now trying to rewrite history in their school textbooks telling kids they did not invade China.

What would happen if Mississippi started to replace the word "slave" with "servent" and denies that slavery had ever happened?

We are not perfect. No one is. We merely ask those who commit criminal acts to admit wrong doing and appologize to their victims.

gesar
10 Oct 06,, 05:12
the communists rightfully want the japanese to acknowledge the horrors they commited during the war and apologize.they consider the japanese war heoes to be monsters.

but they forget their own monsters like mao the paedophile.i mean come on he made hitler look like a joker.he killed/liberated tibet/muslims/chinese in the same way the japanese did.he did everything that the japanese did.

.communist liberated us the same way the japanese liberated china.:)...lol...the sad thing the communist are still there in tibet with a giant statue of the Paedophile MAO....lol....heheh:)

Francois
10 Oct 06,, 15:33
Racism put aside, Japan is one of the best country to live in today.
At almost ANY standard.
Excellent food, excellent people, nice, polite, never insulting, never too loud, beautiful landscape, beautiful girls, a culture deep and swallow at the same time, freedom of speach, safe, nice to foreigners...

Can't tell two of these in China!

PandaRoo
11 Oct 06,, 17:28
Don't think that's going to happen.
Well, some people here in China are obviously way too obssessed with the idea that China and Japan would fight one day.

Whereas as far as I know probably most Japanese are far less interested in that and struggling to understand why the two nations have to fight, again.

The so-called patriotism sh*t in China is really getting on my nerves these days, so bloody annoying.
Some of you guys seriously need to get over it.

ArGoN
15 Oct 06,, 09:16
I think the propaganda works well in China. We Indonesians also cant deny Japanese brutality during wwII. As you know, we are also one of the victim (although it's true that Chinese lost more than us). But get over it, we're not so vengeful to Japan unlike China or even SK, perhaps because we are geographically separated and we rely on Japanese electronics lol.

I think it's because China and SK are fast growing country and they rely on the people's nationalism to build their nation and use the nation's momentum. And all these debates are just the proof that chinese, koreans, or even the japs are highly influenced by the mass nation-scale propaganda of nationalism and patriotism. Why would people demand war? it's just the product of your government propaganda...

TopHatter
15 Oct 06,, 10:54
or even the japs are highly influenced

Argon, do please avoid the use of that term for Japanese people. It's considered offensive. Thanks.

ArGoN
15 Oct 06,, 11:01
sry, I didn't mean to use offensive language (I used the word just because it's short). A warning for my first post in the forum >.<

astralis
15 Oct 06,, 17:37
argon,


But get over it, we're not so vengeful to Japan unlike China or even SK, perhaps because we are geographically separated and we rely on Japanese electronics lol.

I think it's because China and SK are fast growing country and they rely on the people's nationalism to build their nation and use the nation's momentum. And all these debates are just the proof that chinese, koreans, or even the japs are highly influenced by the mass nation-scale propaganda of nationalism and patriotism. Why would people demand war? it's just the product of your government propaganda...

i would argue the reason why indonesia is not so vengeful is because the japanese were "only" there for around 4 years. in both china and SK the japanese were busy killing, torturing, fomenting "incidents", enslaving, and raping for ~20-50 years (former being china, the latter being SK).

certainly nationalism is a product of propaganda, because nationalism is socially-constructed anyway. but that's true of all nations, and not just china/SK.

ArGoN
16 Oct 06,, 05:38
i would argue the reason why indonesia is not so vengeful is because the japanese were "only" there for around 4 years. in both china and SK the japanese were busy killing, torturing, fomenting "incidents", enslaving, and raping for ~20-50 years (former being china, the latter being SK).


We still believe that the 3.5 years of Japanese invasion is much worse than the 3.5 centuries of Dutch colonization. Or put it this way, after 3.5 centuries of slavery, racism, torturing, raping by the Dutch colonials we can forgive them. (no, 'forgive' is not the right word, perhaps 'let things passed by and move on')



certainly nationalism is a product of propaganda, because nationalism is socially-constructed anyway. but that's true of all nations, and not just china/SK.

But in the case of China/SK, nationalism gets pretty strong but not yet as strong as nationalism in Nazi's era. I agree, other countries also have nationalism and even fundamental extremism to their belief and I'm afraid that the nationalism might be use as a weapon of war just like in the previous WWs.

essay
16 Oct 06,, 15:18
You are right.How could jews wage war on Germany WHOSE GOVERNMENT HAD MADE APOLOGIZE SINCERELY not only to jews but also to all victims punished and tortured by NAZI GERMANY.But japanese made no public apologize to chinese victims,and futhermore,they distort history rather than tell the truth to their descendants.

Sooooo...... Do you think jews should wage war on German familys cause their family members we're killed by Germans? Those German familys. I really doubt Germans think back to their family members in WWII as villains.

My family left Russia because of the Bolsheviks but you don't seem me wanting to destroy Russia either. I'de worry more about how much of an ecological disaster your country is or how in fact your ruleing class is screwing your countrymen over than how Japanese acted in WWII

essay
16 Oct 06,, 15:34
Hi officer,i used to regard you as a respected soldier.but what you have said is really disgusting.You are an absolute white racism and narrow-minded nationalism of white ally.

Your biggest fault thus far is posting false information.



Then learn about how this forum function. It functions on verifiable facts; not
on what you want things to be.



That's their problem, not yours. Don't make it your problem



Oh horse pucky, they can't hurt you and they know they can't you.



Because they have a treaty and because they don't want anybody else having Japan.



Get real. They've hanged Tojo.



No, they just treat Stalin as their national hero.



So you want to kill Japanese to prove you're human. I've seen this kind of hatre but at least be honest about it. You want to kill Japanese just because they're Japanese. I don't believe you for one second that you hate their war criminals. You were not even alive.



After seeing what you have posted, I assure you I know more about China's strength than you do. I've spent decades studying the PLA. Tell me, do you the difference between a Chinese brigade and a Chinese regiment? Do you know how China was prepared to fight the USSR? Do you know how the PLA fought the 1st Sino-Vietnam War? Do you know how they fought the 2nd Sino-Vietnam War? Do you know what is brigadization? Do you know how the 2nd Artillery Force plan to fight a conventional war? A nuclear war?



You're not as strong as you were in 1962.



Oh get off it, the US has no interest in overthrowing the CCP.



Nobody listens to China either. All I'm hearing is what you WISH China to be. Not what she is. When the Americans bomb your embassy in Belgrade, Yugoslavia? What happenned? Everybody said sorry - THAT'S IT. The Russians sent ONE motorized infantry company (200 soldiers) and they get to co-command a sector. The Chinese got nothing.

The EP-3 Incident. China demanded that her EEZ be respected as her territory (the Americans and everybody else ignored you), the US stop her reconaisance flights (you call them spying), the Americans are still flying. China demanded an apology. The US expressed their regrets.

China is a very important country but son, I've spent my life staring down the USSR. China doesn't scare me one bit after that.

Monte
16 Oct 06,, 15:56
essay,

You are wrong:frown:

HistoricalDavid
16 Oct 06,, 15:56
Hi officer,i used to regard you as a respected soldier.but what you have said is really disgusting.You are an absolute white racism and narrow-minded nationalism of white ally.

I see not the remotest hint of any sort of racism - as if 'white' racism is any worse or better.

Officer of Engineers
16 Oct 06,, 17:53
Hi officer,i used to regard you as a respected soldier.but what you have said is really disgusting.You are an absolute white racism and narrow-minded nationalism of white ally.
You liking me has nothing to do with my posting or not. If you cannot face the blunt facts as presented, you should not even consider posting in a military forum.

The Chinese wants to kill the Japanese just because they're Japanese. It's as simple as that. Yes, you can bring all the historic wrongs and the revisionism you want. But the people who done that are dead and you want to kill, rape, butcher their children.

And China is not as powerful as you think. The North Koreans have proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

gunnut
16 Oct 06,, 19:04
...deep and swallow at the same time...

You perv! :eek:

highsea
16 Oct 06,, 19:06
...But japanese made no public apologize to chinese victims,and futhermore,they distort history rather than tell the truth to their descendants.Well, here's a list of apologies they have made over the past 40 years or so.

Get over it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

gunnut
16 Oct 06,, 19:08
Hi officer,i used to regard you as a respected soldier.but what you have said is really disgusting.You are an absolute white racism and narrow-minded nationalism of white ally.

Colonel is a Canadian and served NATO for years, but he ain't white. Therefore, he can't possibly be a racist. :biggrin:

astralis
16 Oct 06,, 19:15
highsea,

those half-apologies are just about worthless in chinese eyes because they are invalided by the very fact that the prime minister of japan is going to a temple that honors class-A war criminals, whose museum exonerates- nay, glorifies- japanese imperialism, militarism, and killing.

not to mention how japanese politics is hamstrung by a right-wing which believes in such a tradition...the current PM abe, for example, has moved to the center on the yasukuni issue after peddling to the right in the elections. that he even NEEDS to peddle to the right demonstrates that japan is definitely not fully reformed.

the problem with east asian nationalism is that it was created in response to outside aggression, whether it was western or not. this fosters cultural (and to a lesser extent ethnic) nationalism. in other words the whole damn place is prickly, chinese, korean, and japanese all.

highsea
16 Oct 06,, 19:27
...those half-apologies...Heard it all before. I could give a sh*t if essay or anyone else wants to deny the facts.

Did you even read any of them? Here's the very first one on the list:
29 September 1972. Prime Minister Kakuei Tanaka. "The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war, and deeply reproaches itself.Or this one:
25 May 1990. Prime Minister Toshiki Kaifu. "I would like to take the opportunity here to humbly reflect upon how the people of the Korean Peninsula went through unbearable pain and sorrow as a result of our country's actions during a certain period in the past and to express that we are sorry" (Summit meeting with President Roh Tae Woo in JapanThat's an apology. Fact is, Japan has apologized over and over, they were nuked twice, occupied, etc.

They paid their tab. It's 50 years in the past.

Get over it.

highsea
16 Oct 06,, 19:28
...but he ain't white. Therefore, he can't possibly be a racist. :biggrin:Hehehee, that's calling a spade a spade, lol.

astralis
16 Oct 06,, 19:34
They paid their tab. It's 50 years in the past.

Get over it.

their "tab" was equal, if not greater, than what the nazis had to pay.

and they paid a hell of a lot less.

it's not a problem of "getting over it", it's a problem of the other side SAYS one thing and DOES another.

i can fully acknowledge that the governments of both sides have played this out cynically to their advantage...but i can tell you for a fact that in terms of south korea and china, what the japanese have done to atone does not even begin to approach the magnitude of their crimes. i tell you now that if the US suffered even 1/3 of what china suffered during WWII, japan would NOT exist, perhaps not even the land-mass and certainly not the people. le may would have been run out of town for "only" advocating sending the japanese back to the stone age.

and this is from a person who has worked with japanese volunteer aid teams in china. i'm looking at this issue from a rational standpoint and not from an emotional one, the latter being a reality for ANYONE who has ever lived in east asia.

Officer of Engineers
16 Oct 06,, 20:38
Did you even read any of them? Here's the very first one on the list: Or this one: That's an apology. Fact is, Japan has apologized over and over, they were nuked twice, occupied, etc.

Those were never apologies from the Japanese government, just apologies as individuals - to escape admitting legal responsibility and therefore compensation.


They paid their tab. It's 50 years in the past.

No, they have not. It's 50 years now and the people on both sides of this issue are dying off. Is it too much to ask to make the Comfort Women and PoWs comfortable in their final years? Apparently, it is.

I ain't about to go burn down Tokyo and I can no more want to see a Japanese baby burn than a Canadian one but to see this appalling disregard for their national responsibilies, that's a disgrace.


Get over it.

Ever noticed that Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea, the US's closest allies of the region don't have an alliance between them? Even when the US got Japan to help Taiwan in case of a Mainland attack, the answer was thanks but no thanks. You cannot expect the ML Chinese to achieve what the US has failed to achieve.

troung
16 Oct 06,, 20:45
The Japanese (spit) are merely hoping all of their victims die over the next few years.

The allies forced Germany to face what it did and even then they still play a dance game... Japan wasn't even forced to go through that...

The Godfather
16 Oct 06,, 21:07
I don't think China will attack Japan because of the following reasons:

1) Japan and China trades supplies with each other so if China sended a nuclear bomb against Japan there economy would become a big catastrophy

2) Japan and USA has cloes ties and is very friendly to each other. So if China attacked Japan they would probably start world war 3 which I don't think they have much interests in.

3) If you took 30 US special forces against 1000 chinese normal assault soldiers.. the US special forces would propably win.. The chineese army has only old weapons from the 60's and the 70's such as AK-47.. Theese weapons compared to the modern US weapon has a very big difference..

highsea
16 Oct 06,, 22:08
Those were never apologies from the Japanese government, just apologies as individuals - to escape admitting legal responsibility and therefore compensation.Every Prime Minister since the 70's doesn't qualify as gov't. apologies?

No, they have not. It's 50 years now and the people on both sides of this issue are dying off. Is it too much to ask to make the Comfort Women and PoWs comfortable in their final years? Apparently, it is.I think the comfort women were each paid about $20,000 and given free medical for life.

Japan paid South Korea $800 Million to settle all claims after the war.

Sure, they should probably do more, but they haven't just denied everything either, like people like to claim.

Hell, for all we know, that Wiki page is censored in ML China.

gunnut
16 Oct 06,, 22:18
Is it too much to ask the Japanese government not to pay official tribute to their war criminals? We don't see Gerhard Schroeder pay official tribute to Joseph Goebbels or Herman Goering.

No amount of money can make things right for the sufferings of the death camp victims or comfort women. All they ask for is that the Japanese government tell the world that they were wrong to start a war and not to worship their war criminals as heroes. And please don't whitewash their invasion of every single nation in east and southeast Asia during their imperial run.

highsea
16 Oct 06,, 22:33
Is it too much to ask the Japanese government not to pay official tribute to their war criminals? We don't see Gerhard Schroeder pay official tribute to Joseph Goebbels or Herman Goering.I just think that's a gross exagerration. The shrine is for the 2.5 million Japanese soldiers that were killed in the war, not for the 14 or so that were executed for war crimes.

astralis
16 Oct 06,, 22:37
highsea,


Every Prime Minister since the 70's doesn't qualify as gov't. apologies?

no, and that uses the logic of the japanese themselves. as the japanese like to point out, the PM visits to yasukuni are merely "personal visits to pray for the dead".


I think the comfort women were each paid about $20,000 and given free medical for life.

certainly not all of them, and what restitution there were was NOT done in the name of the japanese government (it came from a PRIVATE fund). the japanese government refuses to take legal responsibility, and just BARELY acknowledges moral responsibility, with the latter coming only after mountains of evidence as well as the japanese themselves started to complain.


Japan paid South Korea $800 Million to settle all claims after the war.

not to "settle all claims", it was just part of the diplomatic normalization cachet. and a good part of that 800 mil were loans.


Sure, they should probably do more, but they haven't just denied everything either, like people like to claim.

i'm not saying they've denied everything. but almost everything they HAVE owned up to only came after immense pressure from both outside and within; the way they own up to it is privately and not state admissions of guilt; and even this is done half-heartedly, "i personally regret the actions of the past" as opposed to "we, the japanese, were guilty of such, such, and such; we are sorry; and we will make amends."

that is not an act of a contrite nation, and this is not what a responsible nation should do.

astralis
16 Oct 06,, 22:41
I just think that's a gross exagerration. The shrine is for the 2.5 million Japanese soldiers that were killed in the war, not for the 14 or so that were executed for war crimes.

what i'd like to know is why, then, japanese politicians did NOT go to yasukuni PRIOR to the secret admission of those class-A war criminals in the 70s.

if they want to honor their war dead, that's fine. remove the damned bastards, and better yet, throw the ashes into a trash heap with curses. i'd bet you 100-1 if they did that, japanese relations with the other asian countries would get a LOT better overnight.

Goatboy
16 Oct 06,, 23:33
Those were never apologies from the Japanese government, just apologies as individuals - to escape admitting legal responsibility and therefore compensation.


Seems an official apology from a Prime Minister could be construed as a government declaration of apology, I guess the Japanese Diet could also issue statements collectively.




No, they have not. It's 50 years now and the people on both sides of this issue are dying off. Is it too much to ask to make the Comfort Women and PoWs comfortable in their final years? Apparently, it is.

It wouldn't take all that much money, maybe just a few billion. Japan should do it. After all, the US settled the claims of Japanese Americans interned for the war (a far lesser crime) a few years ago. Still, I have great respect for the Japanese nation, it's culture, the people, and the force for good it's represented since 1945. I'd like to see these things rectified nonetheless.





Ever noticed that Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea, the US's closest allies of the region don't have an alliance between them? Even when the US got Japan to help Taiwan in case of a Mainland attack, the answer was thanks but no thanks. You cannot expect the ML Chinese to achieve what the US has failed to achieve.

I expect even a nuclear armed North Korea won't make South Korea and Japan good buddies.

Goatboy
16 Oct 06,, 23:43
if they want to honor their war dead, that's fine. remove the damned bastards, and better yet, throw the ashes into a trash heap with curses. i'd bet you 100-1 if they did that, japanese relations with the other asian countries would get a LOT better overnight.

Looking in from the outside, it seems it's impossible for Japanese to both honor the 2.5 million dead soldiers, while simultaneously ignoring the 14 war criminals also buried at the shrine. Wouldn't take much effort to remove those 14. I'm certain most Japanese wouldn't mind a bit either, they'd read about the removal in the paper, then go back to their everyday lives.

Officer of Engineers
16 Oct 06,, 23:57
I think the comfort women were each paid about $20,000 and given free medical for life.

Those living in Japan. Those outside Japan got squat all.


Japan paid South Korea $800 Million to settle all claims after the war.

Sure, they should probably do more, but they haven't just denied everything either, like people like to claim.

That was government to government, as per the agreements sign with all the WWII victors, including the ROC and later, the PRC. However, all signatories stipulated that this was a government to government settling of accounts. It has nothing to do with private organizations nor individuals.

Only the Japanese claims that these agreements include private orgs and individuals.


Hell, for all we know, that Wiki page is censored in ML China.

Considering the leaks we've been getting, wouldn't do them very much good.

highsea
17 Oct 06,, 00:16
...I'm certain most Japanese wouldn't mind a bit either, they'd read about the removal in the paper, then go back to their everyday lives.The Japanese Gov't cannot force the Yasukuni shrine to remove anyone (it's not like the actual remains are there anyway, the shrine only houses the "spirits"). The shrine is not a government facility, it's a private religious site. Shintoism says that the souls are purged of evil at the time of enshrinement, so removing them would amount to eternal condemnation.

...what i'd like to know is why, then, japanese politicians did NOT go to yasukuni PRIOR to the secret admission of those class-A war criminals in the 70s.Do you know this for a fact?

Besides, it would have probably been political suicide, considering the Japanese aversion at the time to anything warlike. It's only the resurgence of nationalism in Japan that makes it less controversial (in Japan) now.

The shrine dates back to the 19th century, and it honors the dead from 11 wars. People were visiting it long before WW2. It's only the politicizing of it that makes it an issue today. IOW, it's just an excuse for behavior that would be exhibited anyway.

...Only the Japanese claims that these agreements include private orgs and individuals.I was under the understanding that the individual claims were taken over by the Korean Gov't. under the agreement. From the Wiki page:
on 17 January 2005, additional documents detailing the minutes of Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and South Korea were released by South Korean government. They suggest that the South Korean government agreed not to demand further compensation, either at the government or individual level against the Japanese government, after receiving $800 million in grants and soft loans from Japan as compensation for its 1910-1945 occupation, and to take all responsibility for individual cases in place of the Japanese government.

Goatboy
17 Oct 06,, 00:28
The Japanese Gov't cannot force the Yasukuni shrine to remove anyone (it's not like the actual remains are there anyway, the shrine only houses the "spirits"). The shrine is not a government facility, it's a private religious site. Shintoism says that the souls are purged of evil at the time of enshrinement, so removing them would amount to eternal condemnation.


I hadn't realized that ty for informing me :) So no Japanese remains exist at the shrine at all? Hmm, ok well I suppose removal of those 14 is a little more complicated then lol.

Dispelling with the "removing them would amount to eternal damnation" concept for the moment, do you have any suggestions on how to "cleanse" the Yasukuni shrine of those 14? Maybe just a few quick swipes with a chisel to erase their names from ... somewhere in the shrine? Maybe some "cleansing ceremony" to remove the souls? Just curious

gunnut
17 Oct 06,, 01:19
Then please use the words like "started a war" and "invasion" in their textbooks instead of "invited" and "security" or some other bullcrap to describe their role in WW2.

gunnut
17 Oct 06,, 01:20
I hadn't realized that ty for informing me :) So no Japanese remains exist at the shrine at all? Hmm, ok well I suppose removal of those 14 is a little more complicated then lol.

Dispelling with the "removing them would amount to eternal damnation" concept for the moment, do you have any suggestions on how to "cleanse" the Yasukuni shrine of those 14? Maybe just a few quick swipes with a chisel to erase their names from ... somewhere in the shrine? Maybe some "cleansing ceremony" to remove the souls? Just curious

Denounce these war criminals as what they are and expose their crimes for everyone to know would be a good start.

astralis
17 Oct 06,, 04:21
Do you know this for a fact?

Besides, it would have probably been political suicide, considering the Japanese aversion at the time to anything warlike. It's only the resurgence of nationalism in Japan that makes it less controversial (in Japan) now.


yes, i know this for a fact. the first PM visits were started by PM miki takeo in 1975, when the shrine-keepers (whose chairman is usually a ruling-party LDP member, including one class-A war criminal himself) had already begun to secretly debate whether or not to start honoring the convicted class-A'ers. (the shrine-keepers finally put them in 3 years later.) there's a good reason why the current emperor refuses to go anywhere near yasukuni- it's for this very reason that those war criminals are there. at least HE'S got morals and brains.

as the rest of the shrine, actually, i would like to mention that just the shrine itself is already an irritant, considering where and why most of those dead japanese were killed (let me give you a hint: the vast majority of the dead didn't die in japan, and weren't fighting to defend japan). the museum that whitewashes or alternatively glorifies everything the japanese have ever done makes it worse (and this includes the americans too: in the museum, the galleries state that it was america who forced japan into the war, stopping the poor japanese from "liberating" the rest of east asia from western imperialism).


The shrine dates back to the 19th century, and it honors the dead from 11 wars. People were visiting it long before WW2. It's only the politicizing of it that makes it an issue today. IOW, it's just an excuse for behavior that would be exhibited anyway.

yeah, guess which started politicizing it. no one forced a gun to koizumi's head and told him to go. furthermore, no one forced the japanese to make the temple a hallowed place that glorifies militaristic japan. funny how chinese and south korean relationships with japan were actually relatively decent before this whole yasukuni and history book brouhaha.

seriously, dude, if you ever go to japan go visit the place. it's quite accessible, right off the shinjuku line. see it with your own eyes. the galleries even have very nice english and chinese translations of their skewed and screwed-up "history".

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 04:25
I was under the understanding that the individual claims were taken over by the Korean Gov't. under the agreement. From the Wiki page:

My apologies. I meant the agreements in general. I've got a sore point on this. I meet with Hong Kong veterans around Remembrance Day and each year, I see them still living with their pains.

essay
17 Oct 06,, 13:46
Officer you are right,the future of my country will be destroyed by some corrupted officers.And i admit that our military power is impotent compared with NATO,S.But i have to fight with my countrymen until you kill off us.Sometimes i want weeping for my country and ask God who can save my country and build China as a country of peace and loveness.Personally speaking,i don,t like some my countrymen who want to take blood revenge on Japanese.I prefer the ture internationalism rather narrow-minded nationalism.The earth has entered the age of great common,so there is no reason for Chinese don,t change it,s mind.


You liking me has nothing to do with my posting or not. If you cannot face the blunt facts as presented, you should not even consider posting in a military forum.

The Chinese wants to kill the Japanese just because they're Japanese. It's as simple as that. Yes, you can bring all the historic wrongs and the revisionism you want. But the people who done that are dead and you want to kill, rape, butcher their children.

And China is not as powerful as you think. The North Koreans have proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

essay
17 Oct 06,, 14:06
I wanna go with somebody to unit the earth with largest and final war against tyranny,and devil who kill innocent people, defame the spirit of real Warrior.I wanna be a Warrior,even though i fear of death,but it,s my honor to die and blood with warrior of freedom.

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 14:11
Will you get off the "fight until you kill me" schtick! It's annoying and it's frankly untrue. Fight to the death attitude armies are frankly armies that don't know how to win. Dead soldiers don't win wars. Live soldiers, even those in Prisioner camps, do. Prison guards cannot guard prisoners and fight at the front at the same time.

A strong country has a strong army but a strong army does not make a strong country. It's the respects that the strong country commands that make her strong ... and you cannot demand respect.

North Korea just slapped China in the face. So, what is China going to do about it?

And son, believe me when I tell you, you don't want to see war.

essay
17 Oct 06,, 14:38
A strong army can,t make a strong country.I can,t agree with you to this point.I,m a Chinese with Mongolian blood.My ancestor built the most mighty and largest Empire----Mongol empire.Genjisi Khan and Tamerlane ,The great are the most successful conqueror in the world.Both of them came from a little tribe in the deep heart of mongol which occupied by Chinese empire.Chinese bullied and killed us,and my ancestor stand up and fight against them for dignity and freedom and right of being treated like human being.And finally they not only conquered China,but also india,turkey,eastern europe,russia,persia.If Khan didn,t died when Mongol army reached the border of Germany,the rest of europe will be crashed.


Will you get off the "fight until you kill me" schtick! It's annoying and it's frankly untrue. Fight to the death attitude armies are frankly armies that don't know how to win. Dead soldiers don't win wars. Live soldiers, even those in Prisioner camps, do. Prison guards cannot guard prisoners and fight at the front at the same time.

A strong country has a strong army but a strong army does not make a strong country. It's the respects that the strong country commands that make her strong ... and you cannot demand respect.

North Korea just slapped China in the face. So, what is China going to do about it?

And son, believe me when I tell you, you don't want to see war.

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 15:00
Remember your history.

The Mongols were united. The Jinn and the Soong were not.

essay
17 Oct 06,, 15:14
I remember the history very clearly.The war among Mongolian,Chinese,And Jinn who is the ancestor of manchu,in fact is a civil war in Chinese empire.After Han(Chinese) dynasty ousted Huns from Mongol highland,Chinese ruled here from Han dynasty to Tang dynasty.And after the collapse of Tang dynasty,some minorities of northern China sprung out and fight againt each other for more land and money.At begining,mongol tribe is too small to fight larger tribes such as Jinn,Chinese warlords,Liao,etc. My grandfather came down from Outer Mongolia,when he is a child his father told him our capital city is Great Beijing city.

Remember your history.

The Mongols were united. The Jinn and the Soong were not.

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 15:39
You will have a hard time telling old Genghis he was Chinese. The Soong, however, were not Steppe Peoples, and remain outside until Kublai.

essay
17 Oct 06,, 15:56
I recommend you to read some history book about China attached with picture of territory of Chinese empire.I think i had made it clearly in past message.From Han to Tang dynasty nearly 500 years,the territory expand from Korea to uzbekstain and kazakstain and certainly include Mongol high land.it,s the golden age of China,during the golden age,the silk route was opened and guarded bt Chinese army,and all tribes in Mongol high land subject to the central rule after Huns was pushed to Europe.
And at that time,mongolian is not master of high land,the real masters are Liao(Qi dan tribe) people,and Xia(dang xiang people)

You will have a hard time telling old Genghis he was Chinese. The Soong, however, were not Steppe Peoples, and remain outside until Kublai.

wangrui961
17 Oct 06,, 15:59
I remember the history very clearly.The war among Mongolian,Chinese,And Jinn who is the ancestor of manchu,in fact is a civil war in Chinese empire.After Han(Chinese) dynasty ousted Huns from Mongol highland,Chinese ruled here from Han dynasty to Tang dynasty.And after the collapse of Tang dynasty,some minorities of northern China sprung out and fight againt each other for more land and money.At begining,mongol tribe is too small to fight larger tribes such as Jinn,Chinese warlords,Liao,etc. My grandfather came down from Outer Mongolia,when he is a child his father told him our capital city is Great Beijing city.


China is not only the country of Han people ,she is the mother of all peoples in China,Mongolian included.The history of China is made by all peoples,China once was the most powerful country in the world and all countries regard us.Each people countribute great to our country. 150 years ago China lost the war with British and then all the wars wtih any country . China lost 1/4 territory and a great many Chinese lost their lifes. When they killd our ancesters ,they never refered to peace and humanity.when they said " Chinese and dogs are not pemitted in" ,they never referd to peace and humanity. When they destoryed Beijing in 1900.they never referd to peace and humanity.When they bombed our embassy,they never referd to peace and humanity.Now ,when a young man showed his angry about janpan,they they refer to peace and humanity.I must admit that my aguments tend to go to extremes ,I should reflect on myself. But it is clear that some person snook at China.Why? As offier said ,we are not powerful. So if China is not poweful ,my argument will not be right for ever.I have been silence for a long time. Everyday I come here and read the posts.I will devote my life to construct China .And I believe someday we will get back regards and never hear "China doesn't scare me one bit after that. "
powerful means right.
Time will tell us the result.

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 16:05
I recommend you to read some history book about China attached with picture of territory of Chinese empire.I think i had made it clearly in past message.From Han to Tang dynasty nearly 500 years,the territory expand from Korea to uzbekstain and kazakstain and certainly include Mongol high land.it,s the golden age of China,during the golden age,the silk route was opened and guarded bt Chinese army,and all tribes in Mongol high land subject to the central rule after Huns was pushed to Europe.
And at that time,mongolian is not master of high land,the real masters are Liao(Qi dan tribe) people,and Xia(dang xiang people)

Hate to tell you this but there was not even a China until Kublai and under Kublai, they were Mongol, not Chinese, with various Khanates giving tribute to the Great Khan. The Golden Horde which remained closest to China was definetely not Chinese. And certainly, Tammerlane in his quest to reunite the Mongol Empire was on his way to face the Ming, couldn't speak a word of Mongol, let alone any of the Chinese dialects.

The Han and Tang had tributary states in the North and Korea - does not make them Chinese at all.

wangrui961
17 Oct 06,, 16:06
Remember your history

So do the American Indians and Hawaiians

essay
17 Oct 06,, 16:07
And you are wrong to this point too.
The Soong, however, were not Steppe Peoples, and remain outside until Kublai.
If you have time,pls visit my hometown and i,m glad to be your tour guide!
and you can see different buildings erected by ancient Chinese army and immigrants in Iner mongolia and outer-mongolia.Both Mongolian and Chinese always say if a mongolian live in China for 20 years he will be a Chinese vice versa for Chinese.And my family is an example.We have origin of Mongol and once didn,t admit that we are Chinese,but when we live with Chinese in city,we realize that we share the same root.

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 16:07
China once was the most powerful country in the world

China was never the most powerful country in the world. The 1st country who could lay such a claim was the British Empire and even then, she lost alot of wars, the most famous being to the upstart Americans.

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 16:10
http://www.keepmyfile.com/image/300070952181
The Soong, however, were not Steppe Peoples, and remain outside until Kublai.

How? The Soong were Southern China. The Steppes are Northern Asia. It was Kublai who conquered the Soong.

wangrui961
17 Oct 06,, 16:11
And you are wrong to this point too.
The Soong, however, were not Steppe Peoples, and remain outside until Kublai.
If you have time,pls visit my hometown and i,m glad to be your tour guide!
and you can see different buildings erected by ancient Chinese army and immigrants in Iner mongolia and outer-mongolia.Both Mongolian and Chinese always say if a mongolian live in China for 20 years he will be a Chinese vice versa for Chinese.And my family is an example.We have origin of Mongol and once didn,t admit that we are Chinese,but when we live with Chinese in city,we realize that we share the same root.

Thanks ,but are you in the inner of outer mongoia?

essay
17 Oct 06,, 16:12
OFFICER,pls READ the "Tamerlane"published by Yale university press.He do speak Mongol language,and Turkish.

Hate to tell you this but there was not even a China until Kublai and under Kublai, they were Mongol, not Chinese, with various Khanates giving tribute to the Great Khan. The Golden Horde which remained closest to China was definetely not Chinese. And certainly, Tammerlane in his quest to reunite the Mongol Empire was on his way to face the Ming, couldn't speak a word of Mongol, let alone any of the Chinese dialects.

The Han and Tang had tributary states in the North and Korea - does not make them Chinese at all.

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 16:16
Tammerlane was Turkic though he claimed old Genghis blood. As I recalled, he never had any Mongol teachers, and all his schooling were in Islam and his treaties were with other Turks.

essay
17 Oct 06,, 16:17
I live and work in Beijing.My grandfather came down from outer-mongolia in 1950s.More exactly he came from Russia.You know Mongolian is the second largest minority in Russia after break up of soviet union.And my grandfather had a Russian wife who gave birth of two chirdren for him.

Thanks ,but are you in the inner of outer mongoia?

wangrui961
17 Oct 06,, 16:20
OFFICER,pls READ the "Tamerlane"published by Yale university press.He do speak Mongol language,and Turkish.

I think I would not debate the China history with offier,he even not konw Chinese is not a people but a summarization of all peoples of China,or he would not say Mongolians are not Chinese. I think even a middle school student in China konw this.

essay
17 Oct 06,, 16:22
Soong overthrew Tang dynasty,and certainly take all territory of Tang.Because of Governmental corruption,peasants uprising and Jinn tribe,liao tribe overthrew the government,and emperor flee with officer from Northern China to southern china.
Soong is devided into North Soong and South Soong.

How? The Soong were Southern China. The Steppes are Northern Asia. It was Kublai who conquered the Soong.

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 16:25
Ok, I'm a military historian. There is a BIG difference between Mongols and Mongolians in view of the historic context. The Jinns did not consider themselves Han nor Tang. The Ming certainly did not feel Mongols belonged in China. And how long did the rest of China considered the Qing foreign occupiers?

To say they're all Chinese today is fine but back in their time, it is NOT correct to state that they were Chinese. They were not. They were different peoples with different styles of governments with different agendas. If is FROM that perspective that you've got to view things.

To state that the Mongol Empire stretching from Europe to China was a Chinese Empire is false and extremely misleading. If it were so, then why did the Ming and the Poles fought so hard to kick the Mongols out?

essay
17 Oct 06,, 16:26
He was born in a mongol tribe who was turklized.But he is a mongolian,the descendent of Chai he tai Khan.Who ruled uzbekstain and large part of central asia.

Tammerlane was Turkic though he claimed old Genghis blood. As I recalled, he never had any Mongol teachers, and all his schooling were in Islam and his treaties were with other Turks.

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 16:27
Soong overthrew Tang dynasty,and certainly take all territory of Tang.Because of Governmental corruption,peasants uprising and Jinn tribe,liao tribe overthrew the government,and emperor flee with officer from Northern China to southern china.
Soong is devided into North Soong and South Soong.

Well, that just proved that they were not Chinese.

wangrui961
17 Oct 06,, 16:28
I live and work in Beijing.My grandfather came down from outer-mongolia in 1950s.More exactly he came from Russia.You know Mongolian is the second largest minority in Russia after break up of soviet union.And my grandfather had a Russian wife who gave birth of two chirdren for him.

I must say sorry to a great many chinese who love peace for my acts so casually in the forum.I often us "we" instead of "I",in fact i can't do this.But I think you should forgive me and undestand me--i love China deeply.I am so young and must learn a lot from others.Everyone who is friendly can be my teacher .

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 16:29
He was born in a mongol tribe who was turklized.But he is a mongolian,the descendent of Chai he tai Khan.Who ruled uzbekstain and large part of central asia.

How could you Turklized a Mongol tribe? Turk is a bloodline, not a political system.

essay
17 Oct 06,, 16:30
They shared the same root and blood.PLs came to China and Mongolia (both iner and outer)you will find everthing i said is true.

Well, that just proved that they were not Chinese.

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 16:34
I've been to China and I understand what you're trying to say but what you're not understanding is that the Jinns, Laos, etc, did not replace their rulers. They kicked them out and set up independent kingdoms. That made them distinct from the Soongs or Hans or Tangs. Until Kublai united them all under one banner, they were not one country, let alone one people.

wangrui961
17 Oct 06,, 16:36
Ok, I'm a military historian. There is a BIG difference between Mongols and Mongolians in view of the historic context. The Jinns did not consider themselves Han nor Tang. The Ming certainly did not feel Mongols belonged in China. And how long did the rest of China considered the Qing foreign occupiers?

To say they're all Chinese today is fine but back in their time, it is NOT correct to state that they were Chinese. They were not. They were different peoples with different styles of governments with different agendas. If is FROM that perspective that you've got to view things.

To state that the Mongol Empire stretching from Europe to China was a Chinese Empire is false and extremely misleading. If it were so, then why did the Ming and the Poles fought so hard to kick the Mongols out?

Sorry offier ,but as "a military historian" you still not understand what does china and Chinese mean. China does not means Ming or Tang or PRC. So the Ming does not means china too.China consist of Ming and Mongol
that time.Just as the south and north of US in the civil war.

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 16:41
Do you consider Canadians, Australians, British, Irish, and Americans one people?

wangrui961
17 Oct 06,, 16:46
I've been to China and I understand what you're trying to say but what you're not understanding is that the Jinns, Laos, etc, did not replace their rulers. They kicked them out and set up independent kingdoms. That made them distinct from the Soongs or Hans or Tangs. Until Kublai united them all under one banner, they were not one country, let alone one people.

Some words in China can't translate into English .As you are "a military historian" and " a watcher of PLA for 20 years",and you have gave many posts about china history,but dou you know Chinese even a little? when we translate "zhong hua ren min gong he guo " in to " PRC" ,the means changed.But we can't find a better way to translate.And i think if you learn a little chinese ,you will find many debates are meaningless.

wangrui961
17 Oct 06,, 16:50
Do you consider Canadians, Australians, British, Irish, and Americans one people?

still I don't consider Canadians, Australians, British, Irish, and Americans one people.I never said this. I also never said the Mongolian and Han are a people.But "Chinese" is not a people .It consists of Han and Mogolian and so on.

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 17:03
I speak Mandarin and Cantonese and read Chinese and I don't buy the one China and Chinese theory. It doesn't explain the wars, the uprising, and the treatment of Mongol and Qing rulers.

And I've seen too many wars to ever believe this one China crap.

astralis
17 Oct 06,, 17:12
wangrui,


I think I would not debate the China history with offier,he even not konw Chinese is not a people but a summarization of all peoples of China,or he would not say Mongolians are not Chinese. I think even a middle school student in China konw this.

the idea of the five-race republic only came during the time of sun zhongshan (sun yatsen).

sorry to tell you, but you are using MODERN ideas- nationalism- to try to fit ancient history. that does not work.


Sorry offier ,but as "a military historian" you still not understand what does china and Chinese mean. China does not means Ming or Tang or PRC. So the Ming does not means china too.China consist of Ming and Mongol
that time.Just as the south and north of US in the civil war.

during those times there WAS no china. there was only tian xia, with all the barbarians running along the outskirts. durring the warring states period (even prior to the idea of tian xia), the kingdoms of wei, qi, and han all thought the kingdoms of qin, yan, and chu were all semi-barbaric states, for example- despite the first two (and partly the latter) being mostly han ethnicity.

wangrui961
17 Oct 06,, 17:19
I speak Mandarin and Cantonese and read Chinese



Oh , I'm sorry that you can speak Chinese.
So the debates are due to this



and I don't buy the one China and Chinese theory. It doesn't explain the wars, the uprising, and the treatment of Mongol and Qing rulers.
And I've seen too many wars to ever believe this one China crap


满招损,谦受益
man zhao sun ,qian shou yi~

I think you should learn this .

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 17:28
And this proves you've learned the wrong thing

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2172558.cms

wangrui961
17 Oct 06,, 17:38
wangrui,



the idea of the five-race republic only came during the time of sun zhongshan (sun yatsen).

sorry to tell you, but you are using MODERN ideas- nationalism- to try to fit ancient history. that does not work.


"Chinese" means "Zhongguo ren ", and "Zhongguo ren" never means Han people or any people in any time.1000 years ago it did't means a people and so doesn't now.
And this has noting to do wtih Sun zhongshan's idea.

during those times there WAS no china. there was only tian xia, with all the barbarians running along the outskirts. durring the warring states period (even prior to the idea of tian xia), the kingdoms of wei, qi, and han all thought the kingdoms of qin, yan, and chu were all semi-barbaric states, for example- despite the first two (and partly the latter) being mostly han ethnicity
So whether Hawaiians are Ameicans ?

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 17:44
**** ROLLING MY EYES ****

Right! So, the fact that the Mongol Empire stretches all the to Poland meant that the Poles, Russians, Turks, Arabs, Afghanis were all once Chinese citizens.

HORSE PUCKEY!

wangrui961
17 Oct 06,, 17:48
And this proves you've learned the wrong thing

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2172558.cms

Sorry Officer, I can't believe this because I just get words and words from your link.And even this is true ,I don't think I learned the wrong thing.I have read a lot about this .my teacher told us such things in the classroom.Students can get any informations include good or bad to China,I don't think this means anything.In the 1960s ,many people run to the USSR from the west border and we let them go. But now ,If you want to go aborad ,you can apply to the goverment and give up the nationality,you can go.Why they "run" to Nepal ? If a man "run" to Mexco from us ,your soldiers will do nothing?

gps glonass
17 Oct 06,, 17:50
I speak Mandarin and Cantonese and read Chinese and I don't buy the one China and Chinese theory. It doesn't explain the wars, the uprising, and the treatment of Mongol and Qing rulers.

And I've seen too many wars to ever believe this one China crap.

No you don't speak Chinese, your just a disgruntled India-fan who cries because the dali lama is going senile or you cry because of the PRC's control of Aksai Chin, and moan because Indian got their asses handed to them by China in '62. I don't know why you keep insisting that Turkish people own China, its seems you've confused China's ethnic groups ( Cantonese, Mongol, Yi, Han....) with the people of Uzbeks, Turks Macedonians, Azerbaijanis, Siberian Tatars...they are all totally different ethnic groups. None of them are Turks, they only share some random historical traits or vague links to the Turkish language. If you called a Azerbaijani a 'Turk', he'd punch you right into the face...its as stupid as trying to claim Spanish are all Romans or claim Spain should do owned by Arabs because of some foggy historical links.

Why are you bringing up the conquest of A-stan, the commies never laid claim to this dump. Afghanistan is an ungovernable hell hole, and even if some Chinese Mongolid owned it the Chinese of today wouldn't be bothered claiming it, its such a dump they only thing they can offer the world are narcotics, sand and terrorism.

wangrui961
17 Oct 06,, 17:52
**** ROLLING MY EYES ****

Right! So, the fact that the Mongol Empire stretches all the to Poland meant that the Poles, Russians, Turks, Arabs, Afghanis were all once Chinese citizens.

HORSE PUCKEY!

officer ,Chinese has a so wide mening ,the Singaporean are Chinese,whether they are China citizens?

astralis
17 Oct 06,, 17:53
wangrui,


"Chinese" means "Zhongguo ren ", and "Zhongguo ren" never means Han people or any people in any time.1000 years ago it did't means a people and so doesn't now.
And this has noting to do wtih Sun zhongshan's idea.

i remind you that the ming called themselves the DA MING, the qing called themselves the DA QING. the definition of "zhong guo" changed in almost EVERY DYNASTY, and even during the spring & autumn periods/warring states period.


If a man "run" to Mexco from us ,your soldiers will do nothing?

US college students do that every friday night.

highsea
17 Oct 06,, 17:54
...If a man "run" to Mexco from us ,your soldiers will do nothing?ROFLMAO. No, we'll gun him down like a dog...:rolleyes:

You know how hard it is to get into Mexico from the US? You drive across a speed bump. You don't even have to stop.

No one tries to prevent Americans from going to Mexico, dude. That's the funniest thing I've ever heard.

wangrui961
17 Oct 06,, 18:03
ROFLMAO. No, we'll gun him down like a dog...:rolleyes:

You know how hard it is to get into Mexico from the US? You drive across a speed bump. You don't even have to stop.

No one tries to prevent Americans from going to Mexico, dude. That's the funniest thing I've ever heard.

Just a "IF" .i mean each soldier would gun if any one want to run across the border, err....change the example to the NK and SK or Pakstain and India.

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 18:03
No you don't speak Chinese, your just a disgruntled India-fan who cries because the dali lama is going senile or you cry because of the PRC's control of Aksai Chin,

Go blow it out your corn hole, horse dung for brains.

gps glonass
17 Oct 06,, 18:09
Go blow it out your corn hole, horse dung for brains.

Speak Chinese so sh*t for brains (Mandarin and Cantonese that's a good one !! ) or do you still go around bluffing and claiming bull like 'N.Korea only blew a pack of TNT' to dupe Amercia, and 'India is the world's most powerful military'

LOL ! :)

joey2
17 Oct 06,, 18:11
chill it guys... no need to keep the past so much flying its like saying once muslim atatcked india and looted away immense wealth means pakistan shud have north india...
thats plain ********.
i'd suggest essay dont ask for war , trust me my grandmom said its the worst thing. live with peace with gf , develope crazy techs , go to movies and chill think of the future for the betterment of humans alone and dont revive old 100000 year old things....
normally the chinese are very good peoples the ones i've met...afterall they r buddhist who was once indian ;) j/p sarcasm inside lol.

joey2
17 Oct 06,, 18:13
Speak Chinese so sh*t for brains (Mandarin and Cantonese that's a good one !! ) or do you still go around bluffing and claiming bull like 'N.Korea only blew a pack of TNT' to dupe Amercia, and 'India is the world's most powerful military'

LOL ! :)

Glonass OoE is not indian. please dont get blinded by your hatred.i urge you.

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 18:13
Speak Chinese so sh*t for brains (Mandarin and Cantonese that's a good one !! ) or do you still go around bluffing and claiming bull like 'N.Korea only blew a pack of TNT' to dupe Amercia, and 'India is the world's most powerful military'

LOL ! :)

I don't have to do anything of the sort. You're gone. That is all there is to it.

highsea
17 Oct 06,, 18:21
Just a "IF" .i mean each soldier would gun if any one want to run across the border, err....change the example to the NK and SK or Pakstain and India.Democracies believe in individual freedom of choice. India or South Korea would not shoot someone who wanted to leave the country. That is a feature found only among dictatorships and tyrants. So North Korea probably would, I doubt Pakistan would though, but I suppose it's possible.

As an American, I can travel to any country that is willing to have me. I DON'T have to ask "permission" from my government. Where I go and how I choose to live is a decision I am perfectly capable of making for myself.

highsea
17 Oct 06,, 18:22
...You're gone. That is all there is to it.Lol. That boy wasn't too bright...:biggrin:

Officer of Engineers
17 Oct 06,, 18:32
Sorry Officer, I can't believe this because I just get words and words from your link.

It's not about the incident. It's about Tibetans who don't think of themselves as Chinese and who's doing everything they can so they don't have to be Chinese. That goes against your assertion that Chinese is all emcompassing. This proves it is not.


officer ,Chinese has a so wide mening ,the Singaporean are Chinese,whether they are China citizens?

That actually goes counter to your claims. Singapore is made up of 3 peoples (the Malays, Indians, and Chinese), none can claim dominance. Is Singapore Chinese? Not by a long shot.

PandaRoo
18 Oct 06,, 06:42
Interesting enough, I myself am actually a product of different ethnic groups in China:) While in Shanghai sometimes people think that I'm from Xinjiang autonomous region, which they learn to be a palpable mistake when I speak Sichuan dialect to them.

Well, it's pretty inappropriate to try to apply the modern ideas or fantasies to the ancient history. Back then probably every ethnic group did regard others as foreigners.

Let's face it - the integration of different ethnic groups is a GOOD thing. But this good thing didn't start happening as however early as you would wish it to have.

BTW, the discussion is now well off the original topic.

wangrui961
18 Oct 06,, 07:28
Interesting enough, I myself am actually a product of different ethnic groups in China:) While in Shanghai sometimes people think that I'm from Xinjiang autonomous region, which they learn to be a palpable mistake when I speak Sichuan dialect to them.


I am now in Sichuan province and for 3 years' study here i can speak good Sichuan dialect:biggrin: :biggrin:

PandaRoo
18 Oct 06,, 07:50
I am now in Sichuan province and for 3 years' study here i can speak good Sichuan dialect:biggrin: :biggrin:

Salute to the party!;)
Hey, that's pretty good for you~

Maybe you have already noticed that lots of Tibetans are living in Chengdu, the capital city of Sichuan?

Goatboy
18 Oct 06,, 09:54
Well, it's pretty inappropriate to try to apply the modern ideas or fantasies to the ancient history. Back then probably every ethnic group did regard others as foreigners.
Let's face it - the integration of different ethnic groups is a GOOD thing. But this good thing didn't start happening as however early as you would wish it to have.


Ethnic groups don't necessarily "need" to be "integrated" with other ethnic groups for it to be a "good thing". Why exactly was "Russification" a good thing? That was "integration" by force, NOT integration by fascination with other cultures (like why sushi, is so popular in America for instance).

Here's my quick point: Integration is ONLY a good thing if the people who are being "integrated" want to be integrated. Freedom is THE central issue here. As it should be with any debate on "integration" being a good thing.

I find it fascinating that people can write things like this:

"Well, it's pretty inappropriate to try to apply the modern ideas or fantasies to the ancient history. Back then probably every ethnic group did regard others as foreigners. Let's face it - the integration of different ethnic groups is a GOOD thing,

--and, still have some concept of "respect for foreign cultures?".

I'm assuming you're talking about the "good" aspects of Han Chinese flooding Xinjiang and Tibet, in an attempt to "pacify", or at least outnumber the original inhabitants.

Officer of Engineers
18 Oct 06,, 11:43
--and, still have some concept of "respect for foreign cultures?".

Two different issues. One discusses the history which has no bearing for respect, just what happenned. The other is more indulgence.

essay
18 Oct 06,, 12:22
They are not one people,but it, unenibe they are descendents of British empire.They share the same root.Furthermore,the relation between Mongolian and Chinese equal to that between Scotish and English who are two different tribes but they share the same country.


still I don't consider Canadians, Australians, British, Irish, and Americans one people.I never said this. I also never said the Mongolian and Han are a people.But "Chinese" is not a people .It consists of Han and Mogolian and so on.

essay
18 Oct 06,, 12:33
Officer is a Military expert.We must respect him,because he unveil some bad things in our military power which we can,t see clearly.So we must pay our appreciation to him.Some times outsider see something much clearer than insider.

essay
18 Oct 06,, 13:34
Hi my countrymen.Count me in you group!How old are you Wangrui

Salute to the party!;)
Hey, that's pretty good for you~

Maybe you have already noticed that lots of Tibetans are living in Chengdu, the capital city of Sichuan?

wangrui961
18 Oct 06,, 13:50
Salute to the party!;)
Hey, that's pretty good for you~
do well in your study and love your country ,the door to the party is always opened to the youngmen.


Maybe you have already noticed that lots of Tibetans are living in Chengdu, the capital city of Sichuan?
I often eat "huo guo" and drink with them ,they always take knives(hide in the clothers,just to show?)......
we are like brothers . they can drink so munch that i awlays be carried back.they can't eat hot as much as I can--this is the only advantage i have:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

wangrui961
18 Oct 06,, 13:52
Hi my countrymen.Count me in you group!How old are you Wangrui

21 ,grade 4 in the collage

Officer of Engineers
18 Oct 06,, 13:54
There are times I don't want you puppies telling how old you are. I was in the army longer than you've been alive.

wangrui961
18 Oct 06,, 13:55
Officer is a Military expert.We must respect him,because he unveil some bad things in our military power which we can,t see clearly.So we must pay our appreciation to him.Some times outsider see something much clearer than insider.

Respective is inreaction,no one want to debate with an expert without manner. I gave offier enough repects when I am new here. But I think many of his viewpoints show my respects was not worth. I don't want everyone to say good to China ,but I can't accept way of saying in a scornful way.
Respect others ,other countires ,then will be respected. i can't image an expert saying like " China doesn't scare me one bit " and "they (Australian)can outdrink your (Indian) entire army and then some" .

Officer of Engineers
18 Oct 06,, 14:01
Son,

You are a civilian. This is a military board with alot of military service people. How we talk nice to civilians ain't the way we talk to each other.

I was at the Fulda Gap with the 4th Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group assigned to the US VII Corps. Our jobs were to face the Soviet 16th Guards Army and the 1st Moscow Crack Army. Within my Area of Operations, we have a combined total of over 500 nuclear warheads targetted against each other. That's more nukes than China got just for my battle area, never mind the cities. After facing that, you actually think the PLA's 38th and 39th Group Armies measure up to what we did?

As for the Aussies outdrinking the Indians, that was a joke but you don't get it.

wangrui961
18 Oct 06,, 14:29
Son,

You are a civilian. This is a military board with alot of military service people. How we talk nice to civilians ain't the way we talk to each other.

I was at the Fulda Gap with the 4th Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group assigned to the US VII Corps. Our jobs were to face the Soviet 16th Guards Army and the 1st Moscow Crack Army. Within my Area of Operations, we have a combined total of over 500 nuclear warheads targetted against each other. That's more nukes than China got just for my battle area, never mind the cities. After facing that, you actually think the PLA's 38th and 39th Group Armies measure up to what we did?

As for the Aussies outdrinking the Indians, that was a joke but you don't get it.

I have already admit my faults in other posts after you .:biggrin: :biggrin:

essay
19 Oct 06,, 00:33
Hi my countryman.pls accept the reality,i think Officer never abuse our country and ppls,he just told us truth which we don,t know.As a Chinese,i,m proud of my country ,my culture and my profound culture,but some corrupted chinese officer don,t be proud of what i,m proud of,In contrast,they betray their countrymen,look down upon Chinese and show their loyalty to foreigners.
At first,i don,t like Officer,but after deep thinking,Officer deserve to be the best friend of Chinese.He dare to tell us what,s wrong in your country,and huge gap between Chinese militray power and westerner,s.
On the topic of India and Japan,Both of them did very well in their political and military reform.After ten years struggle,India has became a microsoft,s monster.but let,s turn around and look at China,after more than 20years of economic reform and opening up,we have no true national industry.When i come to Zhong Guan Cun,i really feel bad,it,s just like a big market in village.
Japan is a great country.My feeling on Japan is contradicted,because japanese invader killed many innocent Chinese,but meanwhile i respect the loyalty and hardworking of Japanese.From high ranking officers to ordinary peoples,Japanese work hard for their country,and if necesarry they even dedicate their life to it.And let,s turn around again,and look at China.Chinese can do nothing except hate Japanese,and boasting.The gap between poor and rich was extended without stopping.


Respective is inreaction,no one want to debate with an expert without manner. I gave offier enough repects when I am new here. But I think many of his viewpoints show my respects was not worth. I don't want everyone to say good to China ,but I can't accept way of saying in a scornful way.
Respect others ,other countires ,then will be respected. i can't image an expert saying like " China doesn't scare me one bit " and "they (Australian)can outdrink your (Indian) entire army and then some" .

PandaRoo
19 Oct 06,, 10:44
Ethnic groups don't necessarily "need" to be "integrated" with other ethnic groups for it to be a "good thing". Why exactly was "Russification" a good thing? That was "integration" by force, NOT integration by fascination with other cultures (like why sushi, is so popular in America for instance).

Here's my quick point: Integration is ONLY a good thing if the people who are being "integrated" want to be integrated. Freedom is THE central issue here. As it should be with any debate on "integration" being a good thing.

I find it fascinating that people can write things like this:

"Well, it's pretty inappropriate to try to apply the modern ideas or fantasies to the ancient history. Back then probably every ethnic group did regard others as foreigners. Let's face it - the integration of different ethnic groups is a GOOD thing,

--and, still have some concept of "respect for foreign cultures?".

I'm assuming you're talking about the "good" aspects of Han Chinese flooding Xinjiang and Tibet, in an attempt to "pacify", or at least outnumber the original inhabitants.

Well, well, another over-politically-correct American.

My late maternal grandpa was from Xinjiang, as a person with a minority background he studied in a university in Sichuan Province, which is also located in western China. He met my maternal grandma who is a Han, and they FELL IN LOVE!

How bloody difficult is that?

They got married, so? To me that's a damn good thing because if that didn't happen there wouldn't have been me here posting the articles!

And to me, people from different ethnic groups trying to and probably managing to get along with each other IS a good thing!

Not every damn thing that happens in China comes with some sort of coercion or force. It's as simple as that. You seriously need to get over some of the ideas that's so deeply rooted in your mind because they've already rooted your mind.

When I say the integration is a good thing, I didn't say that integration under coercion is. And I doubt you had any idea about why I posted my previous reply.

Yeah, some people are unfortunately forced to do something but there are also the ones who bloody WANT to do that, just because the boy thinks the girl is good looking and nice and the girl thinks that the boy is strong and reliable. Hello~!:rolleyes:

PandaRoo
19 Oct 06,, 10:51
As for the Aussies outdrinking the Indians, that was a joke but you don't get it.

Heehee... He needs to have some Aussie friends and then he will know how much they can drink:biggrin: :biggrin:

Oh, they are good! I like drinking with them:biggrin:

A good chance to see if your ethanol dehydrogenase in your body works well or not! Our biochemistry book says its level in the body is hereditary.

wangrui961
19 Oct 06,, 14:37
Hi my countryman.pls accept the reality,i think Officer never abuse our country and ppls,he just told us truth which we don,t know.As a Chinese,i,m proud of my country ,my culture and my profound culture,but some corrupted chinese officer don,t be proud of what i,m proud of,In contrast,they betray their countrymen,look down upon Chinese and show their loyalty to foreigners.
At first,i don,t like Officer,but after deep thinking,Officer deserve to be the best friend of Chinese.He dare to tell us what,s wrong in your country,and huge gap between Chinese militray power and westerner,s.
On the topic of India and Japan,Both of them did very well in their political and military reform.After ten years struggle,India has became a microsoft,s monster.but let,s turn around and look at China,after more than 20years of economic reform and opening up,we have no true national industry.When i come to Zhong Guan Cun,i really feel bad,it,s just like a big market in village.
Japan is a great country.My feeling on Japan is contradicted,because japanese invader killed many innocent Chinese,but meanwhile i respect the loyalty and hardworking of Japanese.From high ranking officers to ordinary peoples,Japanese work hard for their country,and if necesarry they even dedicate their life to it.And let,s turn around again,and look at China.Chinese can do nothing except hate Japanese,and boasting.The gap between poor and rich was extended without stopping.

I apologized to officer yesterday in other posts.

Goatboy
20 Oct 06,, 20:27
Well, well, another over-politically-correct American.

My late maternal grandpa was from Xinjiang, as a person with a minority background he studied in a university in Sichuan Province, which is also located in western China. He met my maternal grandma who is a Han, and they FELL IN LOVE!
And to me, people from different ethnic groups trying to and probably managing to get along with each other IS a good thing!



The context of my response was to highlight that "forced" integration isn't a good thing. The term "integration" had been used in some posts a little more euphamistically than I was comfortable with -- say an invasion of Taiwan on the pretext of "integration" (read annexation) with the motherland. I think integration IS a good thing, I love the blending of cultures, America's the better for it. I've always thought so (I'm a "conservative Libertarian" btw).

I have no doubt that Xinjiang, and China are better places, resulting from your grandmother and grandfathers marriage -- this I would call "good" integration. "Bad" integration might be massive state subsidies to migrants to cause a particular effect: the dilution of say Xinjiang's indigenous peoples IF the intent is to create a demographic fait accompli. "Natural integration" however I don't have a problem with at ALL, I hope that's clear. Regardless, I understand quite well the difference between Stalin booting entire ethnic groups in their millions, thousands of miles away -- and anything going on in Xinjiang, or Tibet. They are two completely different situations





Not every damn thing that happens in China comes with some sort of coercion or force. It's as simple as that. You seriously need to get over some of the ideas that's so deeply rooted in your mind because they've already rooted your mind.


When did I ever EVER say "everything that happens in China results from the initiation of force? I've never believed that. Perhaps you gleaned something different from my post than what I had intended. I can be critical of Chinese policies regarding Taiwan, regarding also issues in Xinjiang, Tibet -- it doesn't mean I'm slandering the entire Chinese culture, nor its government, nor every aspect of Chinese influence in those regions either!
I refuse to allow my position on one (Chinese) political issue, define my response to EVERY Chinese issue.

crooks
22 Oct 06,, 17:46
Does China have the naval power to reach japan?

HistoricalDavid
22 Oct 06,, 18:38
Does China have the naval power to reach japan?

Not beyond token attacks, I imagine.

crooks
22 Oct 06,, 18:59
That's what I thought.

I can't see China waging a war with Japan, yet alone win one.

HistoricalDavid
22 Oct 06,, 19:42
In 20, 30 or 50 years, the situation may be different.

But regardless, you're not accounting for one fact.

wangrui and essay will doubtlessly overcome such annoyances as no air or naval supremacy, poor logistics, etc and lead the proletarian army to victory to crush the imperialists!

wangrui961
23 Oct 06,, 10:03
In 20, 30 or 50 years, the situation may be different.

But regardless, you're not accounting for one fact.

wangrui and essay will doubtlessly overcome such annoyances as no air or naval supremacy, poor logistics, etc and lead the proletarian army to victory to crush the imperialists!

Now I can understand why some ONCE powerful countriers declined .
Keep haughty when fall into decay with each passing day .
Where has the the British Empire has gone ? Why ?
Now I understand it .
And I understand why US take over the world but not the UK .

HistoricalDavid
23 Oct 06,, 10:21
Keep haughty when fall into decay with each passing day .

Neither Britain, nor the USA, are falling into decay.

I'm not being haughty, it's a) a fact YOU can't do much to Japan (except with nuclear weapons... which would probably invite American Armageddon upon YOUR heads) and b) a fact that you live on another planet with regards to invading them.


Where has the the British Empire has gone ? Why ?
Now I understand it .
And I understand why US take over the world but not the UK .

Don't euphemise. Say what you mean.

'Brave the enemy's gunfire?'

ROFFLES... honestly!

crooks
23 Oct 06,, 15:56
He has a point about the British Empire, but I agree.

China are still a long way off threatening anyone.
They will eventually pass america as an economic power, but not in our lifetime.

wangrui961
24 Oct 06,, 05:44
We don't want to pass USA,but should make peogress.

Taihang
29 Oct 06,, 19:26
He has a point about the British Empire, but I agree.

China are still a long way off threatening anyone.
They will eventually pass america as an economic power, but not in our lifetime.

It'll depend on how old you are and how long you'd be around. Never be too sure if you know the history of British Empire.

zraver
29 Oct 06,, 21:55
China vs Japan hahahaha, sorry mao you jsut got spanked. Japan has the worlds largest airforce and navy at it's beck and call to backstop it's own extremily well equipped navy and airforces. The Japanese ahve more surface ASW capabilit yin the pacific than anyone including the USN. Japan is a strategic partner and ally with the US. The US takes those commitments very seriously and if that means Walmart has to have some empty shelves until some othe rprovider can be found so be it. And keeping those shelves full of shoody 2nd rate goods will keep China form going to war. Without trade all of chinas advances are undone over night.

dabrownguy
29 Oct 06,, 22:07
This aside. Whats with the purchase of 500 Mi-28's? Do the PLA plan on large air drops over the China Sea.

wangrui961
31 Oct 06,, 16:59
China vs Japan hahahaha, sorry mao you jsut got spanked. Japan has the worlds largest airforce and navy at it's beck and call to backstop it's own extremily well equipped navy and airforces. The Japanese ahve more surface ASW capabilit yin the pacific than anyone including the USN. Japan is a strategic partner and ally with the US. The US takes those commitments very seriously and if that means Walmart has to have some empty shelves until some othe rprovider can be found so be it. And keeping those shelves full of shoody 2nd rate goods will keep China form going to war. Without trade all of chinas advances are undone over night.

Japan is a dog of US .

dabrownguy
04 Nov 06,, 00:39
Hey that certianly better then being NK.

gunnut
04 Nov 06,, 00:50
Japan is a dog of US .

Japan is useful sometimes.

jintao.hu
16 Nov 06,, 06:46
Without question China will win.

jintao.hu
16 Nov 06,, 06:55
Japan is useful sometimes.
I want to say, japanese girls are useful sometimes...

wangrui961
18 Nov 06,, 09:49
I want to say, japanese girls are useful sometimes...

er......Japanese girls are always useful , 90% sex films in China were made by them...........:biggrin:

Francois
18 Nov 06,, 14:31
er......Japanese girls are always useful , 90% sex films in China were made by them...........:biggrin:
Chinese are too ugly for that!
And it doesn't fit the recommandation of the Central Party.

Enzo Ferrari
22 Nov 06,, 12:25
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
Thanks , honor to receive your reply
But we are not young men who just can angry and angry
we research the plotics everyday and we are clever enough:biggrin: :biggrin:
I know the defence pact ,but my sir ,do you notice the defence treaty deosn't inlude the Okinawa area? And the treaty just say defense,not assault.
We would beat them back and cut their transportion line . Why should we make Uncle Sam angry? we will sit down and look japan dying.....
If Japan strike us ,we will bomb them back to the stone age . If US help them invading China ,we will beat back.( I love US ,the example of the world)


Why did Japanese necessary invade China since China already fast becoming the economic colony of Japan???:confused:

Enzo Ferrari
23 Nov 06,, 02:30
Racism put aside, Japan is one of the best country to live in today.
At almost ANY standard.
Excellent food, excellent people, nice, polite, never insulting, never too loud, beautiful landscape, beautiful girls, a culture deep and swallow at the same time, freedom of speach, safe, nice to foreigners...

Can't tell two of these in China!

...except earthquake and economic turndown:biggrin:

wangrui961
24 Nov 06,, 16:33
...except earthquake and economic turndown:biggrin:

1,Earthquakes ,each day ,each time in Japan,not China.
2,Economic , China is the fastest growing one in the world.
3,colony? China is not a colonyof any country.But as I know,Japan is a abslutely colony of Ameica. If NK throw a nuke bomb to Japan, your force will not beat back at once , because you should wait for the order of the Pentagon:biggrin: :biggrin: ( Kim Jong always did something astonish the world, maybe next explosion news is "nuke Japan".Oh ,God bless you ,Japanese.)

Francois
25 Nov 06,, 02:01
1,Earthquakes ,each day ,each time in Japan,not China.
2,Economic , China is the fastest growing one in the world.
3,colony? China is not a colonyof any country.But as I know,Japan is a abslutely colony of Ameica. If NK throw a nuke bomb to Japan, your force will not beat back at once , because you should wait for the order of the Pentagon:biggrin: :biggrin: ( Kim Jong always did something astonish the world, maybe next explosion news is "nuke Japan".Oh ,God bless you ,Japanese.)
1- Japan can stand earthquakes bettre then ANY country in the world.
Not that a big deal, there are more deads by natural (and not natural) causes in China (kills, rapes, explosions in mines, floodings) due a lot to misregard of basic securities issues then in Japan.

2- Japan has renewed with economic growth last year and is planning an improvement for the followings years again.
But they are already at the top.
China is still 3rd world country.

3- Tibet, for exemple, is a colony.
Other places are, or on the way to become colonies of gready China.

For the nukes, either China or NK turn their weapons on Japan won't be the end of both nations.
One nuke do not exterminate a country.
Japan has got two, and is still second economic power in the world.
Japan has got zillons of earthquakes and typhoons and anything, but still has the looooongest liveing dynasty in the world (2000 years).
So your arguments are nill.

The two big insecurity issues in Japan are the emigrants from China and Koreas. When I get pushed in the subway, I look and see... a chinaman!
Why?

wangrui961
25 Nov 06,, 05:20
For the nukes, either China or NK turn their weapons on Japan won't be the end of both nations.
One nuke do not exterminate a country.


1,China is a civilized country,she never uses nuke first ( if uses ,janpan will disappear from the planet ,don't say US will protect you ,Japan is just a tool of US ,NOT worthy.)
2,NK ,uses or not ,it's hard to say , maybe someday Kim Jong feel unhappy and then nuke you .A nuke bomb throw to Tokyo~~~~Hollywood gets a chance to make a big film( American films is always wonderful and novely:biggrin: ) Don't want to bomb NK ,SK will protect it.( they are still brothers.) America will not start a nuke war for Janpan, never.( If US want the planet disappear,maybe)

nickel1106
25 Nov 06,, 12:10
1,China is a civilized country,she never uses nuke first ( if uses ,janpan will disappear from the planet ,don't say US will protect you ,Japan is just a tool of US ,NOT worthy.)
2,NK ,uses or not ,it's hard to say , maybe someday Kim Jong feel unhappy and then nuke you .A nuke bomb throw to Tokyo~~~~Hollywood gets a chance to make a big film( American films is always wonderful and novely:biggrin: ) Don't want to bomb NK ,SK will protect it.( they are still brothers.) America will not start a nuke war for Janpan, never.( If US want the planet disappear,maybe)

well,sir
grow up plz
can't believe word above were spoken by a 4 th grade college student--"nuke+hollywood",no wonder education system of china is a chaos right now.

well i don't like japs either,but you sir party man plz light up your mind.

nickel1106
25 Nov 06,, 12:25
and thank you sir to enhance the "brain washed commie" stereotype of all chinese people to the westerners.

good job sir.

wangrui961
25 Nov 06,, 18:39
Yes, I am "brain washed commie"
but I still know the justice
when some so called democratic countires ask others to accept their values ,their soldiers are killing commen people in the "uncivilized countries"
All westoners love "justice,democracy ,and liberty",but just for themslves. look at the world ,look through the history , how many wars were started by the "democratic countires " and how many people were killed .
For you ,a "light mind man" , you don't care this ,your "justice,democracy ,and liberty" are just to your countrymen .And you are proud to be a citizen of a "democratic country"
I don't care wether I am "brain washed commie" , I just want Justice
If you impose wars on others , don't want to be safe and live a comfortble life.
If you believe "justice,democracy , liberty,humanity and universal love" or some other beautiful stories,practice it, do as it .Don't want to enjoy them when you deprive them from others. This is justice , I just want it.

gf0012-aust
25 Nov 06,, 21:58
Yes, I am "brain washed commie"
but I still know the justice
when some so called democratic countires ask others to accept their values ,their soldiers are killing commen people in the "uncivilized countries"
All westoners love "justice,democracy ,and liberty",but just for themslves. look at the world ,look through the history , how many wars were started by the "democratic countires " and how many people were killed .
For you ,a "light mind man" , you don't care this ,your "justice,democracy ,and liberty" are just to your countrymen .And you are proud to be a citizen of a "democratic country"
I don't care wether I am "brain washed commie" , I just want Justice
If you impose wars on others , don't want to be safe and live a comfortble life.
If you believe "justice,democracy , liberty,humanity and universal love" or some other beautiful stories,practice it, do as it .Don't want to enjoy them when you deprive them from others. This is justice , I just want it.


Justice? Hmmm, Lets have a different perspective added then.

Some of you may be aware that part of my ancestry is chinese. The unfortunate but interesting side of that ancestory in this discussion is that I had 8 mainland relatives murdered by Red Guards during the 60's. Their crimes? Apparently as teachers, lawyers and doctors they were considered too elite and needed to be bought down a peg or two. A bit of farming and regular beatings was considered acceptable. They were bludgeoned to death by soldiers and students who were brainwashed to think that murdering their own people was acceptable if they didn't fit the parties profile of what a good communist should be. These were people who contributed to society - they were givers, not takers.

Mao and his acolytes murdered more people through internal purges than Hitler did in "acts of war" - in fact he rates up there with Stalin for getting into 8 figures (ie more than 10 million and estimated to be 20+million). Mao makes Stalin and Beria look like social workers.

So when a country that happily murders 20+ million of her own through misguided and fervent idealogical processes then deems that the Japanese owe them an apology - then I'm somewhat bemused at the hypocrisy of it all. Numerically, what the Japanese did pales into the depths of the ledger of decency and obligation in comparison.

When the Chinese Govt starts to apologise to those of us who had their families murdered by their own policies, when they apologise for murdering their own people, when they accept responsibility for their own actions - then maybe, just maybe your definition of what is justice will carry some weight.

and a little reminder and weight added to this - Mao and his people murdered millions internally - and they were not at war with any external power. They thus engaged in selective community and regional culling to secure the party.


This is justice , I just want it.

So do those people affected by the murder of 20 million of their own relatives.
If they don't want it - then my family certainly does.

Some of you people need to know more about your own history before you happily preach to others about theirs.

kams
26 Nov 06,, 02:04
well,sir
grow up plz
can't believe word above were spoken by a 4 th grade college student--"nuke+hollywood",no wonder education system of china is a chaos right now.

well i don't like japs either,but you sir party man plz light up your mind.

Don't waste your time on him. He is nothing but a brainwashed mouthpiece of party.

wangrui961
26 Nov 06,, 09:55
Justice? Hmmm, Lets have a different perspective added then.

Some of you may be aware that part of my ancestry is chinese. The unfortunate but interesting side of that ancestory in this discussion is that I had 8 mainland relatives murdered by Red Guards during the 60's. Their crimes? Apparently as teachers, lawyers and doctors they were considered too elite and needed to be bought down a peg or two. A bit of farming and regular beatings was considered acceptable. They were bludgeoned to death by soldiers and students who were brainwashed to think that murdering their own people was acceptable if they didn't fit the parties profile of what a good communist should be. These were people who contributed to society - they were givers, not takers.

Mao and his acolytes murdered more people through internal purges than Hitler did in "acts of war" - in fact he rates up there with Stalin for getting into 8 figures (ie more than 10 million and estimated to be 20+million). Mao makes Stalin and Beria look like social workers.

So when a country that happily murders 20+ million of her own through misguided and fervent idealogical processes then deems that the Japanese owe them an apology - then I'm somewhat bemused at the hypocrisy of it all. Numerically, what the Japanese did pales into the depths of the ledger of decency and obligation in comparison.

When the Chinese Govt starts to apologise to those of us who had their families murdered by their own policies, when they apologise for murdering their own people, when they accept responsibility for their own actions - then maybe, just maybe your definition of what is justice will carry some weight.

and a little reminder and weight added to this - Mao and his people murdered millions internally - and they were not at war with any external power. They thus engaged in selective community and regional culling to secure the party.



So do those people affected by the murder of 20 million of their own relatives.
If they don't want it - then my family certainly does.

Some of you people need to know more about your own history before you happily preach to others about theirs.

1,I'm sorry for your family's unfortunate.Mao mudered lots of Chinese , and the damn "Red Guards" ,they murdered many scientists,teachers and earned men. They were indeed "biran washed" by Mao.
2,Mao's age is over,No One likes him except some fools. Our gov has acknowledged that and try to do sth for the causlty.
3,compare to Mao ,some country crimed much more than Mao and still refuse to repent. some countries are still criming to humen now when they preach "justice,democracy , liberty,humanity and universal love".
4,Brian wash ,never will happen again in China, if you are in China ,you may find people have their own oppnion ,speak in their own voice. I am a party man ,but I still know the "Geneva Convention" ,some civilized men seem don't know it and kill common people in the middleeast.
5,China must make progress in democracy and some other fields ,we are making efforts and need time . And you "democratic men " should let us know the advantages of democracy but not just invade small countries,kill common people ,ripe girls.etc.
6,some times yongmen act wrong on impulse,but we don't lost our conscience.
At last , As a party man ,I apologise to your family , it's the party's fault.
I wish your family to be happy .

Transient
26 Nov 06,, 11:07
4,Brian wash ,never will happen again in China,

LOL. Coming from you? Yeah. We got that.


Our gov has acknowledged that and try to do sth for the causlty.


Japan has acknowledged its WW2 actions and tried to do smething for the casualties too. Don't see you being so forgiving when it comes to the Japanese huh?


And you "democratic men " should let us know the advantages of democracy but not just invade small countries,kill common people ,ripe girls.etc.


Cut the crap. If you don't understand the difference between officially sanctioned behaviour and criminal actions, then put your head back in your hole and leave it there.


some times yongmen act wrong on impulse,but we don't lost our conscience.


What. So this apologist explanation applies only to the Red Guard but not to others?

crooks
26 Nov 06,, 15:50
Yes, I am "brain washed commie"
but I still know the justice
when some so called democratic countires ask others to accept their values ,their soldiers are killing commen people in the "uncivilized countries"
All westoners love "justice,democracy ,and liberty",but just for themslves. look at the world ,look through the history , how many wars were started by the "democratic countires " and how many people were killed .
For you ,a "light mind man" , you don't care this ,your "justice,democracy ,and liberty" are just to your countrymen .And you are proud to be a citizen of a "democratic country"
I don't care wether I am "brain washed commie" , I just want Justice
If you impose wars on others , don't want to be safe and live a comfortble life.
If you believe "justice,democracy , liberty,humanity and universal love" or some other beautiful stories,practice it, do as it .Don't want to enjoy them when you deprive them from others. This is justice , I just want it.

Guys, look five lines down.

He called us westoners!

I do not smoke pot!

Kansas Bear
27 Nov 06,, 01:58
4,Brian wash ,never will happen again in China, if you are in China ,you may find people have their own oppnion ,speak in their own voice. I am a party man ,but I still know the "Geneva Convention" ,some civilized men seem don't know it and kill common people in the middleeast .


11 YEARS ON AND STILL NO GOVERNMENT INQUIRY: 'FORGOTTEN PRISONERS'
May 2000 | SUMMARY | AI INDEX: ASA 17/17/00
The 4th June 2000 marks the eleventh anniversary of the massacre of hundreds of unarmed civilians in Beijing and the subsequent injuries and arrest of tens of thousands of demonstrators throughout China. The eleventh anniversary also marks a time when people continue to be imprisoned and sent to labour camps for peacefully exercising their right to freedom of expression in connection with activities related to earlier anniversaries of the massacre.

Amnesty International has records of 213 people who are still imprisoned or on medical parole for their activities in connection with the 1989 protests. The attached list is a mere fraction of the real number of people throughout China who were unfairly tried and sentenced for their involvement in the protests. The list excludes prisoners who will have served their sentences in June 2000
http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/china/eleven_years.htm

China fails its workers
Workers’ rights eroded as widespread labour unrest is repressed

Workers’ rights are being undermined as China shifts towards a free market economy. Economic reforms have caused widespread closures of state-owned enterprises and a huge increase in unemployment. According to official statistics, more than five million workers were laid off from state-owned operations during 2001. Unemployed workers are often promised redundancy money that never appears.

Workers habitually face extremely poor conditions including filthy and poorly ventilated workplaces. Overtime, often unpaid, is frequently compulsory. Factory employees may be forbidden from getting married or having children. Workers are often exposed to dangerous chemicals without the necessary safeguards. When there are accidents, medical expenses are often deducted from pay. It has been reported that in the south of China, an average of 13 factory workers a day lose a finger or an arm, and one dies every four and a half days.

Labour unrest in China is widespread. In March and April 2002, protests, strikes, demonstrations and factory occupations by angry workers have been reported nearly every day. Workers are demonstrating against low pay, illegal working conditions, lay-offs, redundancy terms, management corruption and delayed welfare payments.

Independent trade unions are not permitted in China. Such protests by workers are therefore generally illegal and have often been dispersed with excessive force by police. Many peaceful protests by workers over pay and benefits have turned into pitched battles between the workers and armed police, resulting in casualties and arrests. Workers and activists have been harassed or imprisoned for taking part in such protests or publicizing them. The rights to freedom of expression and association are routinely denied to those seen as a threat by the authorities.

http://web.amnesty.org/wire/May2002/China


Why don't you enlighten us...... :rolleyes:

JBG
27 Nov 06,, 10:34
Wangrui961 ( sounds like a "labour/re-education" camp to me ) you and your mates are frightening examples of the lasting effects of certain cold war "mind washed" mind sets. Propaganda certainly works a treat on you guys! But then again, it always does on those with a totalitarian-sympathetic mindset.

Not the mind sets that are fuelling China's recent growth, I should add, but those that kept it for so long as a third world s##t - hole.

Your lack of knowledge of world history since 1945, your tortured logic, your big book of grudges, your entirely misplaced sense of military superiority and your inability to absorb new information lend your posts no integrity at all.

Your posts are ta worst hysterical and at best meaningless. Winning a war that you start and in which you must project your power amphibiously over a long contested piece of ocean takes more, much more, than mere slogans and printed banners in Tiannamen Square. Those things are for domestic consumption only and viewed as a joke-spectacle in other parts of the world.

Militarily, Japan has no chance on the mainland. Tell me if you know of any Japanese intention since 1945 to do so and many would be interested.

Mililtarily, China has no chance to get to let alone invade, Japan. Any air-sea contest between Japan and China in the foreseeable future would end only in a Chinese defeat - and probably a heavy one. Just look at the TOEs,

Jonathan

gesar
28 Nov 06,, 11:22
Its useless trying to educate commies,specailly the CHICOM variety.they have what i call the little dick syndrome.they have been defeated by just about everyone from the japan to vietnam and so feel constant need to be bombastic and so on.they cannot even take over the brave Taiwanese people and yet they dream of killing japanese.

stooopid commies are brave against monks and students.when its time to fight they just **** in fear.like they did with japanese...;) KMT fought but cowardly stooopid commies stabbed them in back.:frown:


gesar.

PRC sucks.long live TAIWAN.

nickel1106
28 Nov 06,, 15:48
Its useless trying to educate commies,specailly the CHICOM variety.they have what i call the little dick syndrome.they have been defeated by just about everyone from the japan to vietnam and so feel constant need to be bombastic and so on.they cannot even take over the brave Taiwanese people and yet they dream of killing japanese.

stooopid commies are brave against monks and students.when its time to fight they just **** in fear.like they did with japanese...;) KMT fought but cowardly stooopid commies stabbed them in back.:frown:


gesar.

PRC sucks.long live TAIWAN.

hey how old are you,dude

just curious,nothing more.

Stan187
28 Nov 06,, 17:28
China must make progress in democracy and some other fields ,we are making efforts and need time . And you "democratic men " should let us know the advantages of democracy but not just invade small countries,kill common people ,ripe girls.etc.


Wait, so you didn't invade, colonize, rape in Tibet? What's worse is that the stuff that is perpertrated by citizens of democracies that you describe were not STATE SANCTIONED!

Having lived in communist country myself, albeit for a short time, I would gladly punch a commie in the mouth before being made to listen as he questions the morals of actual democratic countries.

The nerve of some people.

astralis
28 Nov 06,, 18:26
gesar,


ts useless trying to educate commies,specailly the CHICOM variety.they have what i call the little dick syndrome.they have been defeated by just about everyone from the japan to vietnam and so feel constant need to be bombastic and so on.they cannot even take over the brave Taiwanese people and yet they dream of killing japanese.

stooopid commies are brave against monks and students.when its time to fight they just **** in fear.like they did with japanese... KMT fought but cowardly stooopid commies stabbed them in back.


gesar.

PRC sucks.long live TAIWAN.

you know, if you had said this about 20-25 years ago in taiwan, you would have very likely been arrested...;)

loukai
28 Nov 06,, 18:33
IMO i don't think that will happen, if not then i can't imagine ...
but i truly think Japs should apologize to the countries invaded by them in WW2 sincerely,like Germany did.

gf0012-aust
28 Nov 06,, 21:49
gesar,



you know, if you had said this about 20-25 years ago in taiwan, you would have very likely been arrested...;)


21 years ago I was detained for an extra 8 hrs because of taking happy snaps of the coastline near one of the sun yat sen tourist spots. I failed to see the sign above my head warning that anyone caught photographing sensitive locations could be shot on sight.

I never pointed my camera at the coastline for the remainder of my trip. :biggrin:

Francois
30 Nov 06,, 04:10
IMO i don't think that will happen, if not then i can't imagine ...
but i truly think Japs should apologize to the countries invaded by them in WW2 sincerely,like Germany did.

Try this:

Japan’s Apologies to China
In this post I have assembled together as many unique statements including apologies or statements of regret towards China. Please read the introduction to my post on Japan’s apologies to Korea which applies equally here. Briefly, my position is that I think the apology issue is the wrong issue for those concerned with historical revisionism in Japan to spend their energy on. Not only do I think Japan has already apologized, but I believe such national apologies have little or no worth and aren’t worth the hot air they generate. In fact, neither do they satisfy the Asian countries they are directed towards (if and when they ever find out about the statements) but they increasingly inflame otherwise sympathetic Japanese who feel they are forced to engage in constant self-flagellation. This distracts them from the more important historiographical issues at stake on all sides. On the other hand, it is also highly inaccurate to portray the “apology diplomacy” of Japan as a story of repeatedly issuing unambiguous statements of admitted guilt and apology. These statements vary greatly, and were often issued with great reluctance and in the face of opposition from conservative politicians who etertain the most revisionist historical positions.

Note: There is overlap between this and my last posting, simply because some statements referred to all of Asia or at least to both Korea and China.

Let us begin:

Statements Including Apologies or Statements of Regret Relevant to China

1972.9.29 Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People’s Republic of China “The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war, and deeply reproaches itself.” J: 日本側は,過去において日本国が戦争を通じて中国国民に重大な損害を与えたことについての責任を痛感し,深 く反省する。 C: 日本方面痛感日本国过去由于战争给中国人民造成的重大损害的责任,表示深刻的反省。 Notes: The English version Japanese version, and Chinese versions are online.

1982.8.24 Suzuki Zenkô (Prime Minister) At a press conference during the first textbook crisis of 1982. “I am painfully aware of [our] responsibility for inflicting serious damages (on some Asian countries) during the past war.” J:「過去の戦争を通じ、重大な損害を与えた責任を深く痛感している」 “We need to recognize/acknowledge criticism that (Japan’s occupation) was invasion.” J: 「『侵略』という批判もあることは認識する必要がある」 Notes: Is it safe to say that there is an ambiguity in the word 認識 which could either imply that you acknowledge safely from a distance the criticism without necessarily believing it to be correct?

1982.8.26 Suzuki Zenkô (Prime Minister) I’m not sure if this is the same press conference as above, but according to this document, the following statement was issued: “Japan and the people of Japan are deeply conscious of the fact that in the past our actions have caused a great deal of pain and loss to the countries of Asia, including China and Korea, and we are building the foundations of our future as peaceful country upon our reflection upon this fact and our resolve never to it happen again.” (MT) J: 日本政府及び日本国民は,過去において,我が国の行為が韓国・中国を含むアジアの国々の国民に多大の苦痛と 損害を与えたことを深く自覚し,このようなことを二度と繰り返してはならないとの反省と決意の上に立って平 和国家としての道を歩んで来た。

1992.10.27 Heisei Emperor (Akihito) “In the long history of relations between our two countries, there was a tragic period when my country caused great suffering for the people of China. We have rebuilt our country and strongly resolved to pursue the path of a peaceful country on the basis of our deep regret and desire that this kind of war should never be repeated.” (WP) J: この両国の関係の永きにわたる歴史において、我が国が中国国民に対し多大の苦難を与えた不幸な一時期があり ました。これは私の深く悲しみとするところであります。戦争が終わった時、我が国民は、このような戦争を再 び繰り返してはならないとの深い反省にたち、平和国家としての道を歩むことを固く決意して、国の再建に取り 組みました。爾来、我が国民は、世界の諸国との新たな友好関係を築くことに努力してまいりましたが、貴国と の間においては、両国の先人たちをはじめとする多くの人々の情熱と努力によって、将来にわたる末長い平和友 好を誓い合う関係が生まれ、広範な分野での交流が深まりつつあります。 C: 在两国关系悠久的历史上,曾经有过一段我国给中国国民带来深重苦难的不幸时期。我对此深感痛心。战争结束后 ,我国国民基于不再重演这种战争的深刻反省,下定决心,一定要走和平国家的道路,并开始了国家的复兴。从此 ,我国专心致力于建立与世界各国之间的新的友好关系。在同贵国的关系上,通过两国前辈们等许多人士的热情努 力,建立了要永誓和平友好的关系,两国在广泛领域的交流正在不断加深。我对两国国民之间关系取得了这样的进 展感到由衷的喜悦,同时衷心希望这种良好的关系进一步发展成为不可动摇的关系。Notes: As you can see, this is a rather weak and vague statement in comparison to the important 1972, 1995, and 1998 statements. However, its importance shouldn’t be underestimated. The statement admits that Japan “caused” (与えた) pain to the Chinese people and claims that as a result of this Japan was forced to reflect and regret this period of time and desire never to repeat it in the future. A statement coming from the emperor such as this is still more than many had expected (He apparently also used the word “regret” or 反省 with Li Peng’s visit to Japan in 1989 but I can’t find the original full statement on this). There was political debate in Japan whether this statement constituted a violation of the constitutional role of the emperor, especially since it was reported that not only the foreign ministry but the emperor’s own hand was found in the specific wording of the phrase. There was also considerable negotiations between the Chinese and Japanese about the wording and certain adjustments in the translation which makes the statement stronger in Chinese. For example, the phrase 多大の苦難 or “much suffering” is translated in a slightly heavier sounding 深重苦难 or “grave/deep suffering” which the Chinese felt was a more appropriately serious adjective. Actually, more than the apology, at least two articles I read indicated that Deng Xiaoping was more happy to just get the emperor over there so soon after the Tiananmen incident. China was still suffering the aftershocks of diplomatic isolation. The Japanese version and the Chinese version of these statements are available online.

1993.8.11 Hosokawa (Prime Minister) “The last war was a war of aggression[/invasion]” J: 「先の戦争は侵略戦争」I have also seen this version “The last war was a war of agreesion, it was a mistake.” 「先の戦争は侵略戦争、誤った戦争。」This was supposedly given at the press conference after he came into power.

1995.6.9 Diet of Representatives A watered down statement was issued by the Diet (see posting on this coming soon) which includes the following “On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II, this House offers its sincere condolences to those who fell in action and victims of wars and similar actions all over the world. Solemnly reflecting upon many instances of colonial rule and acts of aggression in the modern history of the world, and recognizing that Japan carried out those acts in the past, inflicting pain and suffering upon the peoples of other countries, especially in Asia, the Members of this House express a sense of deep remorse.” J: 本院は、戦後五十年にあたり、全世界の戦没者および戦争等による犠牲者に対し、追悼の誠を捧げる。また、世 界の近代史における数々の植民地支配や侵略行為に想いをいたし、我が国が過去に行ったこうした行為や他国民 とくにアジア諸国民に与えた苦痛を認識し、深い反省の念を表明する。我々は、過去の戦争についての歴史観の 相違を超え、歴史の教訓を謙虚に学び、平和な国際社会を築いていかなければならない。Note s: Notice the “sharing” of responsibility at work here by noting that Japan’s colonial behavior was consistent with that of other nations. This marks one of the many changes required to get 230 out of 251 (about half the Diet didn’t even show up for the vote) to pass. While certainly not inaccurate, this addition led to serious criticism and may be why Murayama’s later statement on August 15th is the most consistently referred to by the Foreign Ministry.

1995.8.15 Murayama Tomiichi (Prime Minister) On the 50th anniversary of the end of the war. Full text on Foreign Ministry site. ” During a certain period in the not too distant past, Japan, following a mistaken national policy, advanced along the road to war, only to ensnare the Japanese people in a fateful crisis, and, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. In the hope that no such mistake be made in the future, I regard, in a spirit of humility, these irrefutable facts of history, and express here once again my feelings of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology. Allow me also to express my feelings of profound mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad, of that history.” J: 「わが国は、遠くない過去の一時期、国策を誤り、戦争への道を歩んで国民を存亡の危機に陥れ、植民地支配と 侵略によって、多くの国々、とりわけアジア諸国の人々に対して多大の損害と苦痛を与えました。私は、未来に 誤ち無からしめんとするが故に、疑うべくもないこの歴史の事実を謙虚に受け止め、ここにあらためて痛切な反 省の意を表し、心からのお詫びの気持ちを表明いたします。また、この歴史がもたらした内外すべての犠牲者に 深い哀悼の念を捧げます。」 Notes: It looks like there is a separate verbal statement by Murayama which is similar but has slightly different wording. Any thoughts? Also this statement was significantly watered down thanks to opposition from dozens of conservative Liberal Democrat Diet members. Some of the debate in the Diet on this reveals the deep revisionist leanings of many of these Diet members. Can anyone find some of the earlier proposed statements? Also, it looks like Murayama had already made his own position, expressed so clearly in this speech, almost a year earlier in this statement about his policy plans for a “Plan for Exchanges of Peace and Friendship” which you can find here. Again, make no mistake about it, this statement has since been embraced by prime ministers and the foreign ministry as the position of the Japanese government, despite resistance at the time. So even, for example, right-wing Hashimoto is found saying things like 「日本政府は、第二次世界大戦敗戦の日から五十周年の1995年、内閣総理大臣談話という形をとりまして、 我が国として、過去の日本の行為が中国を含む多くの人々に対し、耐え難い悲しみと苦しみを与えた、これに対 して深い反省の気持ちの上に立ち、お詫びを申し上げながら、平和のために力を尽くそうとの決意を発表しまし た。私自身がその談話の作成に関わった閣僚の一人です。」  There are many other examples where the August 15th statement is referred to in this way as the official position, see for example, here, here, and here.

1998.11.26 Japan-China Joint Declaration On Building a Partnership of Friendship and Cooperation for Peace and Development In section three is the clause, “The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious distress and damage that Japan caused to the Chinese people through its aggression against China during a certain period in the past and expressed deep remorse for this.” J: 過去の一時期の中国への侵略によって中国国民に多大な災難と損害を与えた責任を痛感し、これに対し深い反省 を表明した。 After this sentence, the Chinese express their response: J: 中国側は、日本側が歴史の教訓に学び、平和発展の道を堅持することを希望する。双方は、この基礎の上に長き にわたる友好関係を発展させる。 Notes: The Japanese version, English version, and Chinese version are all available online. Notice the inclusion of the word “aggression/invasion” (侵略) as compared to the 1972 Communique phrasing of “through war.”

2001.4.3 Fukuda Yasuo (Chief Cabinet Secretary) “Japan humbly accepts that for a period in the not too distant past, it caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations, through its colonial rule and aggression, and expresses its deep remorse and heartfelt apology for this. Such recognition has been succeeded by subsequent Cabinets and there is no change regarding this point in the present Cabinet” Notes: In a statement made about the 2002 textbooks found here. Can someone find the Japanese version on the MOFA Japanese web page?

2001.9.8 Tanaka Makiko (Foreign Minister) “We have never forgotten that Japan caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries during the last war. Many lost their precious lives and many were wounded. The war has left an incurable scar on many people, including former prisoners of war. Facing these facts of history in a spirit of humility, I reaffirm today our feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology expressed in the Prime Minister Murayama’s statement of 1995″ J: 日本は、先の大戦において多くの国の人々に対して多大な損害と苦痛を与えたことを決して忘れてはおりません 。多くの人々が貴重な命を失ったり、傷を負われました。また、元戦争捕虜を含む多くの人々の間に癒しがたい 傷跡を残しています。こうした歴史の事実を謙虚に受け止め、1995年の村山内閣総理大臣談話の痛切な反省 の意及び心からのお詫びの気持ちをここに再確認いたします。 Notes: Full statement here and in Japanese here. Said during anniversary of San Francisco treaty.

2003.8.15 Koizumi Junichiro (Prime Minister) “During the war, Japan caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. On behalf of the people of Japan, I hereby renew my feelings of profound remorse as I express my sincere mourning to the victims” J: あの戦いは、我が国のみならず多くの国々、とりわけアジアの近隣諸国に対しても多くの苦しみと悲しみを与え ました。私は、この事実を謙虚に受けとめ、深い反省とともに、ここに謹んで哀悼の意を表したい と思います。 Notes: Made same day he visited Yasukuni. Full statement here and in Japanese (EUC) here.

Links and Sources:

松田弘、波多野澄雄、編 『アジアのなかの日本と中国:友好と摩擦の現代史』 山川出版者、2 004。
天児慧『等身大の中国』 剄草書房、2004。
毛里和子、张蕴岭 『日中関係をどう構築するか:アジアの共生と協力をめざして』岩波書店、2004。

Wakamiya, Yoshibumi 若宮啓文 The Postwar Conservative View of Asia: How the Political Right Has Delayed Japan’s Coming to Terms With Its History of Aggression in Asia (Tokyo, LTCB International Library Foundation, 1999)

Tanaka Akira’s Online Database of Documents related to Japan’s International Relations

Japan Foreign Ministry Statements Related to Postwar Issues - Note that MOFA is very protective of the language of apologies and they only host the Murayama statement here, not many of the other formulations of apologies and statements of regret.
List of Statements of Apology (Japanese) Looks like revisionist site.
Some Translation Exercises which include apology statements (Japanese and English) - Looks like revisionist site.
Another Site Listing Apologies in English

J: Japanese translation
MT: My quick and dirty translation, other translations are taken from various sources. Some of them have or will be modified as we notice discrepancies. source here: http://muninn.net/blog/2005/04/japans-apologies-to-china.html

Or this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

But when the central power decides that, for its own needs, it is better to ignore and hide the real facts and the reality...

astralis
30 Nov 06,, 05:14
francois,

those sentiments hardly matter when the governor of Tokyo goes around slinging quotes like:

"They say we made a holocaust there, but that is not true. It is a lie made up by the Chinese." (on the nanjing massacre)

"Wars are a war of attrition of lives. China holds no value at all for human life and can start a war without any concerns...If tensions mount between the United States and China, the two sides could pull the trigger on each other. Then, the more the fire expands, the United States, which has a civil society that highly values human life, would not be able to win."

or, on japan annexing korea in 1910,

""he annexation of Korea was made with the agreement of nations worldwide. The Korean people had to choose between Russia, Japan or Shina [a derogatory prewar term for China]. They decided to seek help from the Japanese, who had the same facial color as their own."

and when right in the capital, there's yasukuni ginja, which baldly states that WWII was all the americans' fault, interfering in japan's attempts to free asia and put it in a happy Greater East Asia Coprosperity Sphere!

let us not even get into the fact that there are class-A war criminals honored there, the textbook issue, or the comfort women issue, or the numerous right-wing politicians, or the gangsters that support them (whom have a tendency of beating up and disappearing those japanese whom try to tell the truth).

those statements mean absolutely jack-all until the japanese show some inclination towards fixing those problems.

Officer of Engineers
30 Nov 06,, 05:29
Francois,

Say as much empty gestures the Japanese can point to but the fact remains that East Asia is more angered by Japan's lack of guilt than fear of China's future actions. When two of the US's most important allies in Asia (South Korea and Taiwan) refuses any military co-operation with Japan, that states more of Japan's lack of sincerity than any PRC's anger.

Francois
30 Nov 06,, 14:33
I was not going to answer, as it is not related to the subject, but that as one answer to a guy asking for Japan to recognize its faults. They did.
End of that.

Now:

"They say we made a holocaust there, but that is not true. It is a lie made up by the Chinese." (on the nanjing massacre)Well, I agree that Ishihara-san is sometimes a bit crude.
But he has to be provocative to get any sort of result.

"Wars are a war of attrition of lives. China holds no value at all for human life and can start a war without any concerns...If tensions mount between the United States and China, the two sides could pull the trigger on each other. Then, the more the fire expands, the United States, which has a civil society that highly values human life, would not be able to win."I am scared that he might be right here. Especially regarding China.

and when right in the capital, there's yasukuni ginja, which baldly states that WWII was all the americans' fault, interfering in japan's attempts to free asia and put it in a happy Greater East Asia Coprosperity Sphere!I go sometimes in Yasukuni Jinja.
It has a nice museum and a nice park around. A bit crowded on soummers though.
Now, never seen what you are talking about.
The only point I desagree is that they call each battle "incidents", even Nankin. That is deplorable a the least I admit.
I would love to hear your source though...

let us not even get into the fact that there are class-A war criminals honored there, the textbook issue, or the comfort women issue, or the numerous right-wing politicians, or the gangsters that support them (whom have a tendency of beating up and disappearing those japanese whom try to tell the truth).Can't put 100% of the blame on Japanese ppl here.
You have many many extremists in Europa and in the US too.
And come on, not one Japanese is ignorant of the history and the past.
NHK spend hours every day for ppl to know what happened.
Testbooks are a detail (the books that have "light words" on the war represent 1% of the whole thing, and have been accepted in less then 5 schools, most of them schools for hadicapped ppl).

It is god to be critic, but be critic at yourself also.
That is one exercice I often do on myself.
Believe me, it is always relieving!

Japanese ppl are no monsters.

Francois
30 Nov 06,, 14:36
Francois,

Say as much empty gestures the Japanese can point to but the fact remains that East Asia is more angered by Japan's lack of guilt than fear of China's future actions. When two of the US's most important allies in Asia (South Korea and Taiwan) refuses any military co-operation with Japan, that states more of Japan's lack of sincerity than any PRC's anger.
Port call for the MSDF happen in any Taiwanese, Vietnamese, Indonesian, Malaysian or Indian habours, you know?
China has needs to make Japan look like a monster to keep it down.
They are the ones to be feared.
Australia and India understood that already.
The three have (and it is getting stronger starting next year) ties with Nato you know?

Officer of Engineers
30 Nov 06,, 15:02
Port call for the MSDF happen in any Taiwanese, Vietnamese, Indonesian, Malaysian or Indian habours, you know?

And vice versa but those are far cries from alliances.


China has needs to make Japan look like a monster to keep it down.

Seoul needs no help to stay angry at Japan.


They are the ones to be feared.

And yet Taipei said no thanks to any Japanese participation in a ML-TW scenario.


Australia and India understood that already.
The three have (and it is getting stronger starting next year) ties with Nato you know?

They're not East Asia.

astralis
30 Nov 06,, 19:09
francois,


Well, I agree that Ishihara-san is sometimes a bit crude.
But he has to be provocative to get any sort of result.

yes, and what result would that be?


I am scared that he might be right here. Especially regarding China.

then you seen to be racist, and have little comprehension of chinese history and politics.


I go sometimes in Yasukuni Jinja.
It has a nice museum and a nice park around. A bit crowded on soummers though.
Now, never seen what you are talking about.
The only point I desagree is that they call each battle "incidents", even Nankin. That is deplorable a the least I admit.
I would love to hear your source though...

here, i would say you are either not telling the full truth, or blind, as i have been to yasukuni. there are bloody museum exhibits with those words.

here's something from the yasukuni official website.

"War is truly sorrowful. Yet to maintain the independence and peace of the nation and for the prosperity of all of Asia, Japan was forced into conflict. The precious lives that were lost in these incidents and wars are worshiped as the Kami (Deities) of Yasukuni Jinja."

http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/

from the museum, from the popular website "i am a japanese school teacher."

http://photobucket.com/albums/y105/LordAzrael/Az/slanted.jpg


Can't put 100% of the blame on Japanese ppl here.

no, not 100%, but a high, high figure. i am speaking as someone whom has worked with japanese volunteers in china and taiwan, so i am not exactly ignorant about the feelings of individual japanese. i know they are not monsters, but japan as a nation has never fully faced up and accepted what it has done in the past. it is no germany.

Francois
01 Dec 06,, 02:53
then you seen to be racist, and have little comprehension of chinese history and politics.
So basically, insulting Japanese ppl, as I saw in that thread many times, is normal, but pointing the chinese facts is to be racist?
Good! Showing you are very impartial here, uh?

Yes, history, politics are showing that clearly.
Just you can't see it yourself.
Chinese are calling all foreigners barbarians., do not they?


here's something from the yasukuni official website.
"War is truly sorrowful. Yet to maintain the independence and peace of the nation and for the prosperity of all of Asia, Japan was forced into conflict. The precious lives that were lost in these incidents and wars are worshiped as the Kami (Deities) of Yasukuni Jinja."
http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/
from the museum, from the popular website "i am a japanese school teacher."
http://photobucket.com/albums/y105/LordAzrael/Az/slanted.jpg
As far as I remeber (but can't find the article now), this placard has been removed and a commission is presently working on the modification of the other placards toward a less "lastic" vision.

no, not 100%, but a high, high figure. i am speaking as someone whom has worked with japanese volunteers in china and taiwan, so i am not exactly ignorant about the feelings of individual japanese. i know they are not monsters, but japan as a nation has never fully faced up and accepted what it has done in the past. it is no germany.
Japan and Germany, different history, different fate.
Blame the UN. You can't go back. Past is past.

I am living in Japan today.
1- Never seen a national telling me he/she doesn't know about the atrocities and the history of WWII. Never.
2- Never heard a Japanese telling me we should distroy other countries around (like I heard many times in S-Korea or in China).
3- Never been insulted nor bullied like I have been in S-Korea or in China (I am a tall caucasian - hence inferior in their standard).
4- I may not be equal with Japanese, but I am a foreigner who chosed to come and live here. And that should be like that for EVERY foreigner in ANY country.
Normal. Not the locals to adapt to the new comers!

and so on...

nickel1106
01 Dec 06,, 03:02
Yes, history, politics are showing that clearly.
Just you can't see it yourself.
Chinese are calling all foreigners barbarians., do not they?

whaaaaaaaaaaaaat???

where did you get this conclusion ??
ze internet?

astralis
01 Dec 06,, 04:15
francois,


So basically, insulting Japanese ppl, as I saw in that thread many times, is normal, but pointing the chinese facts is to be racist?
Good! Showing you are very impartial here, uh?

uh, you agreed with his assertion that chinese don't value human life? why yes, yes that is quite the racist comment there, buddy.


As far as I remeber (but can't find the article now), this placard has been removed and a commission is presently working on the modification of the other placards toward a less "lastic" vision.

that it was even there at all (and it's still on the damn website), or that it even needs a commission to "modify" it, is indicative of something


Japan and Germany, different history, different fate.
Blame the UN. You can't go back. Past is past.

yes yes, germany killed 6 million jews and the whole world screams genocide. read up on the number of chinese the japanese killed- and let me tell you, some of the ways in which the japanese killed the chinese (as well as a multitude of other asians and allied POWs), makes the "gas showers" of Auschwitz look positively merciful. different indeed. at least the germans could face up to it as a nation. japan obviously still cannot, seeing how it's still divided by internal debate on the issue.

gunnut
01 Dec 06,, 07:52
Calling Nanking Massacre a "battle incident" is like calling Auschwitz a "detention center."

Stan187
01 Dec 06,, 18:51
and let me tell you, some of the ways in which the japanese killed the chinese (as well as a multitude of other asians and allied POWs), makes the "gas showers" of Auschwitz look positively merciful.

You're kind of playing down the suffering of one group to make the point that others were also abused in vicious ways, and thats not really appropriate. There are different ways to express what you are trying to without doing that.

astralis
01 Dec 06,, 19:26
stan,


You're kind of playing down the suffering of one group to make the point that others were also abused in vicious ways, and thats not really appropriate. There are different ways to express what you are trying to without doing that.

it's not "playing down", it's mere information. how many in the west are aware of the level of japanese atrocities in china and east asia? very few, certainly a lot less than those whom are aware of the Holocaust.

yet in terms of quantity and the method by which the japanese slaughtered east asians, it is no exaggeration to say that the japanese had the germans beat. concentration camp or live dissection? "bathhouses" or live plague experiments? a shot in the head or deliberate wounding to test the lethality of bullets (as the japanese did to allied and chinese POWs)?

there IS no need to play down either one; both were horrific. however, people need to be aware of the full impact of what japan did...and the differing level of japanese response after the war...to make the final judgment call as to whether or not japan has fully repented for her crimes.

gunnut
01 Dec 06,, 20:14
There's a good reason why most of east/southeast Asia hates Japan.

Stan187
02 Dec 06,, 03:08
stan,



it's not "playing down", it's mere information. how many in the west are aware of the level of japanese atrocities in china and east asia? very few, certainly a lot less than those whom are aware of the Holocaust.

yet in terms of quantity and the method by which the japanese slaughtered east asians, it is no exaggeration to say that the japanese had the germans beat. concentration camp or live dissection? "bathhouses" or live plague experiments? a shot in the head or deliberate wounding to test the lethality of bullets (as the japanese did to allied and chinese POWs)?

there IS no need to play down either one; both were horrific. however, people need to be aware of the full impact of what japan did...and the differing level of japanese response after the war...to make the final judgment call as to whether or not japan has fully repented for her crimes.

I'd say that more people are aware of the basic facts of the Holocaust. But most people who really actually have read the history and understand the Holocaust really well, are generally into history, and indeed have read about the Japanese autrocities as well.

As far as one having the other beat, they were both pretty brutal in their own ways. I'm sure you know how the Germans came up with those handy dive charts that all underwater divers use now as their bible...

sappersgt
02 Dec 06,, 04:16
I'm sure you know how the Germans came up with those handy dive charts that all underwater divers use now as their bible...

I guessing the same way they determined that keeping the back of your head out of the water is so important in surviving immersion in frigid water. When your head is in the water your survival time is cut to a fraction of otherwise. The Germans tested this on concentration camp prisoners.:eek: That's why modern life jackets have a neck cushions or extensions.

Zhang Fei
02 Dec 06,, 07:33
Calling Nanking Massacre a "battle incident" is like calling Auschwitz a "detention center."The Nanking Massacre can't really be compared to Auschwitz. At Auschwitz, inmates were disarmed, living on starvation rations and in general, no threat to the guards. The Nanking Massacre occurred after a major battle involving Chinese irregulars in civilian clothing. The traditional Japanese and Chinese (and previously, European) practice was to massacre cities that resisted and spare those that did not. Nanking was simply a return to those practices. The Nanking massacre perpetrated in 1945 wasn't even the first massacre in Nanking - the Chinese had staged their own versions during various wars over that strategically important city during a period spanning many centuries.

The Communists slaughtered millions of property owners after they liberated them of their property in the post-liberation era. I don't see them commemorating the dead or compensating their relatives. Instead, Mao is deified as the man who saved China. I think Chinese anger really needs to be redirected internally. What about the dead of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution? What about the lost decades of Chinese economic stagnation? Was that Japan's doing?

The Chinese like to talk about how colonialism led to China's current poverty. If there is one territory that was completely colonized, it was Hong Kong. And yet Hong Kong, with no natural resources, and a fishing village since antiquity, somehow became not only the richest city in China, but also one of the richest cities in Asia. All under British rule. But let's not stop at Hong Kong. Macau wasn't under British rule - it was a trading post so obscure that the Ming handed it over without coercion to the Portuguese during the 16th century. It is the second richest city in China, and one of the richest cities in Asia as well.

I think the problem with Chinese is that they are too trusting of their own brethren. The great thing about being a Chinese leader is that you can establish a new aristocracy (the Communist Party) and kill tens of millions of your people via incompetence, power hunger and sheer cruelty, and your people will worship you for it. Chinese have traditionally believed that the problem with China is a lack of solidarity. I believe the problem with China is too much solidarity. Chinese are far too willing to believe in the good intentions of their leaders - as long as they are Chinese, they will not hear the ugly truth about them, and will curse you for revealing that truth.

I used to think that Communism was the opiate of the Chinese*. Today, I believe the problem is more generalized - that the worship of Chinese leaders is really what ails China.

* The nice thing about worshiping the ancient pantheon of Chinese deities, instead of the living, breathing deities of the Communist Party, is that the ancient Chinese deities can't imprison, torture or shoot you (for expressing contrary opinions about them), or cause you to starve to death (in order to test some new and original - and demented - pet theory about how industry should be organized) - the Party can. It's one thing to be oppressed, and quite another to worship your oppressor.

Stan187
02 Dec 06,, 07:39
I guessing the same way they determined that keeping the back of your head out of the water is so important in surviving immersion in frigid water. When your head is in the water your survival time is cut to a fraction of otherwise. The Germans tested this on concentration camp prisoners.:eek: That's why modern life jackets have a neck cushions or extensions.

Mmmm indeed, when the concentration camp inmates were in the water they were like "Youn know, this shirt could really use a thick coller" and Dr. Mengele was like "Ahh, duly noted, good work *shoot to the back of the head*"

Transient
02 Dec 06,, 08:06
The Communists slaughtered millions of property owners after they liberated them of their property in the post-liberation era. I don't see them commemorating the dead or compensating their relatives. Instead, Mao is deified as the man who saved China. I think Chinese anger really needs to be redirected internally. What about the dead of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution? What about the lost decades of Chinese economic stagnation? Was that Japan's doing?

You expect the CCP to perform harakiri? Why,when there's so convenient a Japan to direct all the pent up anger of the chinese population to?

astralis
02 Dec 06,, 08:15
zhang fei,


The Nanking Massacre occurred after a major battle involving Chinese irregulars in civilian clothing. The traditional Japanese and Chinese (and previously, European) practice was to massacre cities that resisted and spare those that did not. Nanking was simply a return to those practices. The Nanking massacre perpetrated in 1945 wasn't even the first massacre in Nanking - the Chinese had staged their own versions during various wars over that strategically important city during a period spanning many centuries.

ah, i see, a japanese apologist. actually, why don't you study what happened there first- the major battle already occurred in shanghai, where CKS's forces famously held up from august to november of 1937. nanjing, in comparison, had its resistance broken in three days (dec. 10-13), as gen. tang shengchi ordered his troops to get out, which precipitated a chaotic rout. it was at this point in time when his soldiers robbed civilians of clothing in an effort to blend in with the population.

in any case, are you seriously trying to compare the morals between the past and present?


The Communists slaughtered millions of property owners after they liberated them of their property in the post-liberation era. I don't see them commemorating the dead or compensating their relatives. Instead, Mao is deified as the man who saved China. I think Chinese anger really needs to be redirected internally. What about the dead of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution? What about the lost decades of Chinese economic stagnation? Was that Japan's doing?

as mentioned countless times before, people vote by the ballot or by the bullet. the japanese slaughtered the chinese by the millions without the latter's consent, with the goals of looting and destroying the chinese nation (heard of the "three-alls" policy?). mao, on the other hand, sure he was a power-hungry, callous SOB- but his objective was to strengthen china, which he largely did. the china of 1960, after 10 years of mao rule, was a far cry from the china of 1938 (after 10 years of CKS rule).

i fully support criticizing the CCP, seeing as how i'm from taiwan, but to equate the CCP with the japanese is ludicrous.


The Chinese like to talk about how colonialism led to China's current poverty.

actually, seeing what deng xiaoping said on the matter (and his criticism of mao, 70/30 ratio), i would say that you are exaggerating this. most people (the older ones, anyway) have relatives whom suffered in the great leap forward and (more so) the cultural revolution- they have a good idea who caused what.


I think the problem with Chinese is that they are too trusting of their own brethren.

hahahahahahahhahaha been to china much? guess not.


Chinese have traditionally believed that the problem with China is a lack of solidarity

and considering the results, from the three kingdoms era, to the mongol era, the chaos at the end of the ming and the chaos at the end of the qing (along with the problems inherent in the qing method of divide and rule)...i don't think this is as irrational as you would believe.


Chinese are far too willing to believe in the good intentions of their leaders - as long as they are Chinese, they will not hear the ugly truth about them, and will curse you for revealing that truth.

wait till the middle-class gets going. the middle-class has always been- with the one exception of japan- the class that leads in political debate, discussion, and yes, revolution.


that the worship of Chinese leaders is really what ails China.

i think 6/4, and the society that arose from the ashes of that conflagration, should have taught you differently.

Zhang Fei
02 Dec 06,, 08:40
Japan is a dog of US .(Running) dogs usually defend their masters, not the other way around. The US is obligated by treaty to defend Japan, but Japan is not obligated to defend the US. It would be more accurate to say that the US is a dog of Japan.

But here's the thing - I suggest you avoid using the word "dog" in the English language as a term of insult. In Western culture, dogs are highly valued as companions for their loyalty and their selflessness in the face of danger. There is also no Western tradition of butchering dogs for food. Save the phrase "running dog" for Chinese forums.

Zhang Fei
02 Dec 06,, 09:24
ah, i see, a japanese apologist.Better that than than a Chinese apologist who thinks no defense is necessary for China's thousands of years of territorial expansion, looting, rape and large-scale massacres. But the sad reality is that I'm only a Japanese apologist next to a Chinese apologist like you.


in any case, are you seriously trying to compare the morals between the past and present?Why wouldn't I do that? Mao killed millions of surrendered civilians after the battles were a done deal. The Japanese slaughtered soldiers and civilians in the aftermath of a major battle. Mao's morals (and the morals of today's China) are the morals of the past.


as mentioned countless times before, people vote by the ballot or by the bullet. the japanese slaughtered the chinese by the millions without the latter's consent, with the goals of looting and destroying the chinese nation (heard of the "three-alls" policy?).The three-alls policy had to do with killing people who were supporting the guerrillas. Mao certainly had no compunction about killing people who opposed him. The Japanese weren't looking to annihilate the Chinese people. If that was their intention, they would have succeeded in killing off much bigger chunks of the Chinese population. Their whole plan was to incorporate China into the Japanese empire. (Note that a few million Hutus killed 800,000 Tutsis mostly with edged weapons. If the Japanese had wanted to annihilate the people of China, they would have killed a lot more than Mao). Nowhere in East Asia did the Japanese attempt genocide - they sought to kill only those who fought them or those who supported the guerrillas who were fighting them.


mao, on the other hand, sure he was a power-hungry, callous SOB- but his objective was to strengthen china, which he largely did. the china of 1960, after 10 years of mao rule, was a far cry from the china of 1938 (after 10 years of CKS rule).The China of 1960 was different from the China of 1938 primarily because the China of 1938 was under Japanese occupation, which the Communists did little to fight except to stage cowardly raids and run away, leaving the villagers who fed and housed them to be massacred. In fact the China of 1960 enjoyed relative internal peace not because Mao was a great leader, but because in 1938, the warlords spent all their resources fighting the Japanese - under the auspices of the KMT - even as the Communists were rebuilding their strength (i.e. hiding out) at Yenan. By the time the Japanese left, the Chinese warlords were just about wiped out, and Chiang Kai-shek's forces were a shambles, thanks to his focus on fighting the Japanese instead of the Communists.

The China of 1960 was under no military threat. In fact, the China of 1960 chose an expansionary policy of sponsoring communist movements throughout Southeast Asia* with tens of billions of dollars worth of weaponry and training. (A Communist Party cadre was jailed for revealing this innocuous fact - perhaps not so innocuous, because China was pursuing this imperialist policy even as ordinary Chinese were starving to death).

Besides, Mao's entire raison d'etre was to establish China as his personal property. Having succeeded in doing so, he then wasted a million lives during the Korean War fighting a misbegotten war against UN forces. Even if we're talking about about Mao's successful land grabs - from India, East Turkestan and Tibet, it's all very well and nice to talk about making China strong, but it's hard to discern how this benefited ordinary Chinese. Even today, China has to subsidize both Tibet and East Turkestan.

* The Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia in the late '70's involved the capture of thousands of Chinese Red Guards who were helping the Khmer Rouge cull the undesirable elements of Cambodian society. Their input seems to have worked - over a million Cambodians died or fully one-fourth of Cambodia's population.


i fully support criticizing the CCP, seeing as how i'm from taiwan, but to equate the CCP with the japanese is ludicrous.I, too, agree that it is ludicrous - having slaughtered many more Chinese non-combatants than the Japanese, the Communists have a lot more to atone for. But being Chinese means never having to say you're sorry. Like I said, the Chinese indifference to their own sins and the sins of their fellow Chinese is the true opiate of the Chinese people.


hahahahahahahhahaha been to china much? guess not.More times that I would care to admit. The big turn-off is that even the McDonald's and KFC restrooms have squat toilets.

Chinese prefer to buy foreign stuff. But like you, they trust fellow Chinese more than they trust foreigners. This is why the Communist Party and Mao are still worshiped as deities in spite of their disastrous impact on post-WWII China. Like I said, it's one thing to be oppressed, and quite another to worship your oppressors.

wangrui961
02 Dec 06,, 13:50
Now I can just read and watch you debating, I am tring my best to learn Englsih, I don't know how long I need....maybe years.....

astralis
02 Dec 06,, 19:58
zhang fei,


Better that than than a Chinese apologist who thinks no defense is necessary for China's thousands of years of territorial expansion, looting, rape and large-scale massacres. But the sad reality is that I'm only a Japanese apologist next to a Chinese apologist like you.

again, comparing the past with the present. one can fully acknowledge that china was an imperial power, but the point is- of all the victims of chinese aggression, whether it be the koreans, the vietnamese, the mongolians- why is current day anger in all of east asia directed at the japanese? chinese apologist? the people whom i used to argue with on CMF- perhaps the true apologists- would laugh their heads off, hearing that one.


Why wouldn't I do that? Mao killed millions of surrendered civilians after the battles were a done deal. The Japanese slaughtered soldiers and civilians in the aftermath of a major battle. Mao's morals (and the morals of today's China) are the morals of the past.

and did he do it out of spite? out of revenge? out of a desire to so terrorize the chinese populace that he could loot and send the pickings of the loot back to another country? would you care to explain to me why huge portions of the KMT army ended up as the same army that fought the americans in the korean war?

"the japanese slaughtered soldiers and civilians in the aftermath of a major battle", huh? yes, quite true; they also slaughtered soldiers and civilians, too, in the absence of major battles. they massacred tens of thousands on taiwan; tens of millions of east asians forced into slave labor, either in their home country or shipped off to japan, and shot afterwards. even the worst mirror to this in chinese history, the stinking re-education camps of mao, most of the prisoners survived (one notable being deng xiaoping).

are you going to play the game of whom committed the worse atrocities?


their whole plan was to incorporate China into the Japanese empire. (Note that a few million Hutus killed 800,000 Tutsis mostly with edged weapons. If the Japanese had wanted to annihilate the people of China, they would have killed a lot more than Mao). Nowhere in East Asia did the Japanese attempt genocide - they sought to kill only those who fought them or those who supported the guerrillas who were fighting them.

most of the deaths attributed to mao were a combination of the retarded collectivization attempt (human-made crop failure) and natural crop failure. given that the death rate was made up of this, and considering that the area that mao ruled was- to put it mildly- considerably larger and more populated than what the japanese held, and considering the span of time- i would say that yes, the japanese did quite a good job of killing the chinese. germ warfare on unsuspecting chinese towns, yes? continued slaughter of chinese civilians and setting up of concentration camps, even inside wang chingwei puppet regime?

one of the japanese goals in china was to set up friendly puppet regimes that would be under the japanese political and economic orbit. however, among the kwangtung army, one of the goals was to quite literally "reduce the number of chinese on the ground", as a way to cut down the pool of chinese manpower, to terrorize the rest of the populace, and to more easily establish japanese economic control over the area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Japanese_Occupation_-_Map.jpg


The China of 1960 was different from the China of 1938 primarily because the China of 1938 was under Japanese occupation, which the Communists did little to fight except to stage cowardly raids and run away, leaving the villagers who fed and housed them to be massacred. In fact the China of 1960 enjoyed relative internal peace not because Mao was a great leader, but because in 1938, the warlords spent all their resources fighting the Japanese - under the auspices of the KMT - even as the Communists were rebuilding their strength (i.e. hiding out) at Yenan. By the time the Japanese left, the Chinese warlords were just about wiped out, and Chiang Kai-shek's forces were a shambles, thanks to his focus on fighting the Japanese instead of the Communists.

ah, i see; so that explains why at the beginning of the civil war CKS had vastly more, better equipped, and better-trained men than the CCP; and why CKS lost despite receiving more military aid from the US in 1946-1947 than he received during the entirety of WWII.


Besides, Mao's entire raison d'etre was to establish China as his personal property...it's all very well and nice to talk about making China strong, but it's hard to discern how this benefited ordinary Chinese. Even today, China has to subsidize both Tibet and East Turkestan.

also dramatically expanding literacy rates and improving health care, which CKS and the japanese singularly failed to do.


I, too, agree that it is ludicrous - having slaughtered many more Chinese non-combatants than the Japanese, the Communists have a lot more to atone for.

show evidence.


Like I said, the Chinese indifference to their own sins and the sins of their fellow Chinese is the true opiate of the Chinese people.

like i said, you seemed to miss out on 6/4 and most of the 80s.


Chinese prefer to buy foreign stuff. But like you, they trust fellow Chinese more than they trust foreigners.

uh...in china i almost AM a foreigner. my taiwanese-english accent on my mandarin easily differentiates me from your average chinese.

and in any case, in what country do you find people trusting foreigners more than their own countrymen, pray tell?


This is why the Communist Party and Mao are still worshiped as deities in spite of their disastrous impact on post-WWII China. Like I said, it's one thing to be oppressed, and quite another to worship your oppressors.

right, worship, when one leader of the CCP proclaims the big revolutionary daddy of them all to be 30% bad. but i see what you're getting at, and let me say- the reason why the CCP, despite all of its numerous faults, still has some semblance of legitimacy in china, is because the people view the CCP through a combination of indifference, and to the belief (especially in the countryside) that the CCP is better than the corrupt local bureaucrat whom drains them on an almost daily basis. THAT is why, and not because the chinese have some fetish for centralized oppression.

when you remove these two pegs of support- something that came very close to happening in the late 80s- then things are quite far from "worship" of the CCP.

gunnut
03 Dec 06,, 12:03
Why wouldn't I do that? Mao killed millions of surrendered civilians after the battles were a done deal. The Japanese slaughtered soldiers and civilians in the aftermath of a major battle. Mao's morals (and the morals of today's China) are the morals of the past.

Ah, excellent. I see your point.

Do you also support and justify plans to erase muslim cities from the map should a war break out between the west and the islamic world? Come on, both sides used to butcher people. Both sides used to burn enemy cities to the ground and then salt the earth just for the fun of it. We did that to Japan as recently as 1945 when we systematically torched Japanese cities to the ground one at a time. Death tolls of 100k in one night is not uncommon.

I always wondered why we took napalm out of service. It seems like a very nice weapon. Worthy of our human ancestors.

At least you hate commies as much as I do. That's always a plus in a man.

Zhang Fei
03 Dec 06,, 13:11
Ah, excellent. I see your point.

Do you also support and justify plans to erase muslim cities from the map should a war break out between the west and the islamic world? Come on, both sides used to butcher people. Both sides used to burn enemy cities to the ground and then salt the earth just for the fun of it. We did that to Japan as recently as 1945 when we systematically torched Japanese cities to the ground one at a time. Death tolls of 100k in one night is not uncommon.

I always wondered why we took napalm out of service. It seems like a very nice weapon. Worthy of our human ancestors.

At least you hate commies as much as I do. That's always a plus in a man.We burned Japan's cities down *before* they surrendered. The Japanese went after Chinese civilians before they surrendered. The Chinese Communists went after their own civilians *after* they had surrendered.

I'm not interesting in fighting the Muslim world, and I doubt the Muslim world is interested in fighting us. Portions, perhaps a majority, of the Muslim world would like to see us erased from this earth. But we don't go after people for politically-incorrect thoughts - just for either financing or actively participating in terrorist attacks against us. If any government launched a war that killed tens of thousands of Americans, I would have no problem doing whatever it took to take that government down. Up to and including the use of nukes. Note that we firebombed Japan at a time when we had lost a mere tens of thousands of troops. By the time we nuked Japan, we had lost around 52,000 men in the Pacific theater, less than during the Vietnam War.

astralis
03 Dec 06,, 19:48
zhang fei,


The Japanese went after Chinese civilians before they surrendered. The Chinese Communists went after their own civilians *after* they had surrendered.

the first statement is untrue (the japanese killed civilians both before and after); the second statement equivocates death as a result of neglect and ignorance and death as a result of pure malevolence.

gunnut,



At least you hate commies as much as I do. That's always a plus in a man.

i have no problem with hating commies, i have a problem when one hates the commies more than the japanese...and then proclaims the reason why other chinese do not think the same is because they're all deluded, brainwashed, domestic oppression-lovin' fools.

Enzo Ferrari
04 Dec 06,, 06:46
zhang fei,



again, comparing the past with the present. one can fully acknowledge that china was an imperial power, but the point is- of all the victims of chinese aggression, whether it be the koreans, the vietnamese, the mongolians- why is current day anger in all of east asia directed at the japanese? chinese apologist? the people whom i used to argue with on CMF- perhaps the true apologists- would laugh their heads off, hearing that one.



and did he do it out of spite? out of revenge? out of a desire to so terrorize the chinese populace that he could loot and send the pickings of the loot back to another country? would you care to explain to me why huge portions of the KMT army ended up as the same army that fought the americans in the korean war?

"the japanese slaughtered soldiers and civilians in the aftermath of a major battle", huh? yes, quite true; they also slaughtered soldiers and civilians, too, in the absence of major battles. they massacred tens of thousands on taiwan; tens of millions of east asians forced into slave labor, either in their home country or shipped off to japan, and shot afterwards. even the worst mirror to this in chinese history, the stinking re-education camps of mao, most of the prisoners survived (one notable being deng xiaoping).

are you going to play the game of whom committed the worse atrocities?



most of the deaths attributed to mao were a combination of the retarded collectivization attempt (human-made crop failure) and natural crop failure. given that the death rate was made up of this, and considering that the area that mao ruled was- to put it mildly- considerably larger and more populated than what the japanese held, and considering the span of time- i would say that yes, the japanese did quite a good job of killing the chinese. germ warfare on unsuspecting chinese towns, yes? continued slaughter of chinese civilians and setting up of concentration camps, even inside wang chingwei puppet regime?

one of the japanese goals in china was to set up friendly puppet regimes that would be under the japanese political and economic orbit. however, among the kwangtung army, one of the goals was to quite literally "reduce the number of chinese on the ground", as a way to cut down the pool of chinese manpower, to terrorize the rest of the populace, and to more easily establish japanese economic control over the area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Japanese_Occupation_-_Map.jpg



ah, i see; so that explains why at the beginning of the civil war CKS had vastly more, better equipped, and better-trained men than the CCP; and why CKS lost despite receiving more military aid from the US in 1946-1947 than he received during the entirety of WWII.



also dramatically expanding literacy rates and improving health care, which CKS and the japanese singularly failed to do.



show evidence.



like i said, you seemed to miss out on 6/4 and most of the 80s.



uh...in china i almost AM a foreigner. my taiwanese-english accent on my mandarin easily differentiates me from your average chinese.

and in any case, in what country do you find people trusting foreigners more than their own countrymen, pray tell?



right, worship, when one leader of the CCP proclaims the big revolutionary daddy of them all to be 30% bad. but i see what you're getting at, and let me say- the reason why the CCP, despite all of its numerous faults, still has some semblance of legitimacy in china, is because the people view the CCP through a combination of indifference, and to the belief (especially in the countryside) that the CCP is better than the corrupt local bureaucrat whom drains them on an almost daily basis. THAT is why, and not because the chinese have some fetish for centralized oppression.

when you remove these two pegs of support- something that came very close to happening in the late 80s- then things are quite far from "worship" of the CCP.

You forgot to mentioned Soviet Union MASSIVE assistant since 1949 to late1950s.:eek:

Mao butched more Chinese than the IJA, enough said.

astralis
04 Dec 06,, 07:01
enzo ferrari,


you forgot to mentioned Soviet Union MASSIVE assistant since 1949 to late1950s.

if you are speaking of the chinese civil war, uh...the US gave a LOT, LOT more than the USSR did. the USSR was busy taking away whatever factories and thins of value for their own depleted economy. the USSR actually helped out CKS by agreeing with his plea for russian troops to stay in the region until he could move his own troops into the area.


Mao butched more Chinese than the IJA, enough said.

again, please find some credible sources. most of the chinese deaths in mao's rule was through hunger, and not through violent means (IJA style). also, in calculating deaths through hunger, statisticians often use a problematic method by which they calculate what the population "should have" been given prior birth rates, and comparing it to the actual population (back then, and especially in china, not an exact science).

which means, if couples decide not to have a baby that year (an understandable condition given the lack of food), that would be counted as a "death". professor ho ping-ti, a GIANT and one of the original founders of modern chinese historiography, has cited this phenomena.

Officer of Engineers
04 Dec 06,, 07:12
statisticians often use a problematic method by which they calculate what the population "should have" been given prior birth rates, and comparing it to the actual population (back then, and especially in china, not an exact science).

Another problem I have with that method is that you assumed you know what the birthrates were during the Sino-Japan War and that you automatically assume the deaths were dued to starvation and not other means (plaque or bombing).

Extremely, extremely bad math.

kkfan
04 Dec 06,, 13:42
Originally Posted by astralis

ah, i see; so that explains why at the beginning of the civil war CKS had vastly more, better equipped, and better-trained men than the CCP; and why CKS lost despite receiving more military aid from the US in 1946-1947 than he received during the entirety of WWII.



Just because they were still better equiped and better trained, that doesn't mean the Sino-Japanese war didn't hurt them, during the war, the Nationalists took the brunt of heavy fighting against the Japanese while the Communists (for the most part) took part in guerrilla warfare, 8 years of continous fighting was detrimental to the Nationalists' morale.

Another reason why CKS lost was because a large portion of the population blamed the Nationalists for their inability to stop the Japanese takeover of Machuria.

And yes, corruption played a large part too.

kkfan
04 Dec 06,, 13:52
again, please find some credible sources. most of the chinese deaths in mao's rule was through hunger, and not through violent means (IJA style).

he was responsible those deaths nonetheless

gunnut
04 Dec 06,, 20:28
We burned Japan's cities down *before* they surrendered. The Japanese went after Chinese civilians before they surrendered. The Chinese Communists went after their own civilians *after* they had surrendered.

Nanking surrendered.


I'm not interesting in fighting the Muslim world, and I doubt the Muslim world is interested in fighting us.

What are you? European?


Portions, perhaps a majority, of the Muslim world would like to see us erased from this earth. But we don't go after people for politically-incorrect thoughts - just for either financing or actively participating in terrorist attacks against us.

So people actively recruiting people and funds to kill us is OK by you. All is well until they actually start the killing? Tell me why law abiding gun owners are being persecuted when they haven't even done anything. This country has no problem removing consitutional rights of its own citizens but has a problem protecting the same citizens from foreign threat, citing "constitutional rights" of the foreign threat.


If any government launched a war that killed tens of thousands of Americans, I would have no problem doing whatever it took to take that government down. Up to and including the use of nukes. Note that we firebombed Japan at a time when we had lost a mere tens of thousands of troops. By the time we nuked Japan, we had lost around 52,000 men in the Pacific theater, less than during the Vietnam War.

Bin Laden must had you in mind when he started his network.

gunnut
04 Dec 06,, 20:30
Mao butched more Chinese than the IJA, enough said.

He had much longer to do that than the Japanese did.

He was also not as methodical as the Japanese.

Zhang Fei
06 Dec 06,, 08:53
Bin Laden must had you in mind when he started his network.:confused: You mean he figured on Americans dropping nukes on countries that supported him? Like Afghanistan? I think not. I believe he thought the response might be a few cruise missile strikes. If American casualties get high enough though, I don't have a problem with burning down enemy cities. As they sow, so shall they reap.