Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

We'll obliterate you: US warned Pakistan

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • We'll obliterate you: US warned Pakistan

    We'll obliterate you: US warned Pakistan
    Tim Reid
    September 22, 2006

    PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, the President of Pakistan, claimed last night that the Bush Administration threatened to bomb his country "into the Stone Age" if it did not co-operate with the US after 9/11, sharply increasing tensions between the US and one of its closest allies in the war on terrorism.

    The President, who will meet Mr Bush in the White House today, said the threat was made by Richard Armitage, then the Deputy Secretary of State, in the days after the terror attacks, and was issued to the Pakistani intelligence director.

    “The intelligence director told me that (Armitage) said, ‘Be prepared to be bombed. Be prepared to go back to the Stone Age’,” President Musharraf said. “I think it was a very rude remark.”

    The claims come at the end of a week in which relations between the US and Pakistan have sharply deteriorated, and days ahead of the publication of President Musharraf’s memoir, In the Line of Fire.

    On Wednesday, President Bush, in an interview with CNN, said that he would not hesitate to authorise immediate American military action inside Pakistan if he had intelligence of Osama bin Laden’s whereabouts. Asked if he would give an order to kill the al-Qaeda leader, Mr Bush said “absolutely”.

    President Musharraf was clearly angered by Mr Bush’s declaration that the US would act independently of his authority inside Pakistan.

    “We wouldn’t like to allow that. We would like to do that ourselves,” he said. The President’s potentially incendiary claim of US threats comes at a particularly sensitive time between Washington and Islamabad, amid suspicion in Washington that Pakistan is not doing enough to curb a resurgent Taleban in Afghanistan, or in the hunt for bin Laden.

    Before the 9/11 attacks Pakistan was one of the only countries in the world to maintain relations with the Taleban, which was harbouring bin Laden, and the Pakistani intelligence services had close relations with the Taleban regime.

    In recent days Islamabad has vehemently denied US media reports that it has struck a deal with al-Qaeda and Taleban militants inside Pakistan, and even one report that it has assured bin Laden that if captured, he would not face prosecution.

    President Musharraf told the CBS 60 Minutes programme that when he was told of Mr Armitage’s threat, he reacted in a responsible way. “One has to think and take actions in the interest of the nation, and that’s what I did,” President Musharraf said.

    Documents showed that Mr Armitage, who last night disputed the language but did not deny the claim, met the Pakistani Ambassador and the visiting head of Pakistan’s military intelligence service in Washington on September 13, 2001, and asked Pakistan to take seven steps.

    President Musharraf told CBS that he was irked by US demands that Pakistan turn over its border posts and bases for the American military to use.

    He said some demands were ludicrous, including one insisting that he suppress domestic expression of support for terrorism against the United States. “If somebody’s expressing views, we cannot curb the expression of views,” he said.

    The official 9/11 commission report on the attacks, based largely on government documents, said that US national security officials focused immediately on securing Pakistani co-operation as they planned a response.

    Within days of 9/11 President Musharraf cut his government’s ties to the Taleban regime in Afghanistan and co- operated with US efforts to track and capture al-Qaeda and Taleban forces that sought refuge in Pakistan. President Bush often praises Islamabad for being one of Washington’s greatest and most crucial allies in the war on terrorism.

    President Musharraf also spoke about his embarrassment when informed at the UN in 2003 by George Tenet, who was then CIA Director, that Pakistani nuclear weapon technology had been passed to Iran and North Korea by the father of the Pakistani nuclear bomb, A. Q. Khan.

    “(Tenet) took his briefcase out, passed me some papers. It was a centrifuge design with all its numbers and signatures of Pakistan. It was the most embarrassing moment,” President Musharraf told CBS.

    He learnt then, he says, that not only were blueprints being given to Iran and North Korea, but that the centrifuges themselves - the crucial technology needed to enrich uranium to weapons grade - were being passed to them.

    “(Khan) gave them centrifuge designs. He gave them centrifuge parts. He gave them centrifuges.

    “(The shipments) were not done once. They must have been transported many times.”


    STRAINED DAYS

    September 11, 2001. President Musharraf condemns attacks on the US as “brutal and horrible”

    February 2002. On a visit to the White House Musharraf says: “We reject terrorism . . . we will continue to fulfill our responsibilities”

    February 2004. Nuclear scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan accused of selling secrets. "Musharraf denies knowledge of his activities".

    December 2004. Bush says Musharraf is “a person with whom I’ve worked very closely over the past four years”

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...3-2703,00.html

  • #2
    Ohhh Mama, are we gonna some action now? It is clear that US patience is waning incase of Pakistan. I don't see any direct confrontation with Pak but strangulation methods can be applied starting with cancelling F-16 delivery, then cancelling textile quota & after that maybe UN sanctions or am I just letting my horses go loose too quickly?
    If at first you don't succeed, call it v1.0!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ab041937 View Post
      Ohhh Mama, are we gonna some action now? It is clear that US patience is waning incase of Pakistan. I don't see any direct confrontation with Pak but strangulation methods can be applied starting with cancelling F-16 delivery, then cancelling textile quota & after that maybe UN sanctions or am I just letting my horses go loose too quickly?
      this was one of the top news in the most reputed news paper of australia. I never saw any news in any news paper here, where it was said, US want to “obliterate” either Iran or N Korea. while pakistan…….. ? I thought I would post this news for discussion.

      the most interesting thing here is, even case of Mr A.Q.Khan is also highlighted here. i felt, this news was something like they have known who is behind all the happening. Just go through the news 2-3 times from top to bottom. the sense is something like they already had many things in their mind. rest, we would wait and see what happens next. one thing is sure, case of O.B.Laden is not like Iran or N Korea. more than 3000 innocent people of US were killed, they will not leave those who were behind that.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by ab041937 View Post
        Ohhh Mama, are we gonna some action now? It is clear that US patience is waning incase of Pakistan. I don't see any direct confrontation with Pak but strangulation methods can be applied starting with cancelling F-16 delivery, then cancelling textile quota & after that maybe UN sanctions or am I just letting my horses go loose too quickly?
        US is not in any such position and also not in near future.

        Direct conflict is totally out of question, in case of cancellation of F16's Pakistan have alternate of Euro fighters and aso its own JF17.

        Sanctions is most funniest idea. In that case US will loose the rest cooperation and Afghanistan would become a succide mission.

        The actually didnt pushed Pakistan in to trouble rather they invited it by going to Afghanistan. The best solution was to recognise Taliban and bring these savages in to political process not to spread them around the world.......Every mistake have a price

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by xplore View Post
          The actually didnt pushed Pakistan in to trouble rather they invited it by going to Afghanistan. The best solution was to recognise Taliban and bring these savages in to political process not to spread them around the world.......Every mistake have a price
          Do you know anything about the Taliban? That you desire that be made part of the political process.

          Cheers!...on the rocks!!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by xplore View Post
            Direct conflict is totally out of question, in case of cancellation of F16's Pakistan have alternate of Euro fighters and aso its own JF17.
            America subsidizes its weapons sales to you.... you won't be able to afford the Eurofighter.... and the JF-17 is well..... Chinese... Chinese tech. is inferior to Russian, so they will be falling even harder....
            Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
            -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

            Comment


            • #7
              Bush 'Taken Aback' by Musharraf Comment

              WASHINGTON Sep 22, 2006 (AP)— President Bush President said Friday he was "taken aback" by a purported U.S. threat to bomb Pakistan back to the Stone Age if it did not cooperate in the fight against terrorism after the Sept. 11 attacks.

              He praised Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf for being one of the first foreign leaders to come out after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks to stand with the U.S. to "help root out an enemy."

              At a joint White House news conference, Musharraf said a peace treaty between his government and tribes along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border is not meant to support the Taliban.

              He said news reports had mischaracterized the deals. "The deal is not at all with the Taliban. This deal is against the Taliban. This deal is with the tribal elders," Musharaff said.

              Said Bush: "I believe him."

              He said that Musharaff had looked him in the eye and vowed that "the tribal deal is intended to reject the Talibanization of the people and that there won't be a Taliban and there wont be al-Aqaida (in Pakistan)."
              Mushy-Bush

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                America subsidizes its weapons sales to you.... you won't be able to afford the Eurofighter.... and the JF-17 is well..... Chinese... Chinese tech. is inferior to Russian, so they will be falling even harder....
                It is simply a disinformation that US subsidizes its weapons sales. Pakistan paid 5 Billion $ in advance and was not delivered F16 for decades. If you calculate the intrest on that sum it will go five times of original.

                And now US do not enjoy monopoly over arms market.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by xplore View Post
                  It is simply a disinformation that US subsidizes its weapons sales. Pakistan paid 5 Billion $ in advance and was not delivered F16 for decades. If you calculate the intrest on that sum it will go five times of original.
                  Uh, it was $658 Million for 28 aircraft, and it the money was returned.
                  ...Finally, on December 1st, 1998, the New Zealand Government announced that it would lease-buy the 28 Pakistani F-16s stored at the AMARC. Three days later, the United States said they hoped for an 'early and fair' agreement on how to compensate Islamabad for its aborted purchase of US F-16 fighters. President Clinton briefed Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif on US efforts to compensate Pakistan for the $658 million it paid for the 28 F-16s. US officials said the United States has already paid $157 million of this back to Islamabad, raising the money by selling aircraft components to other countries. New Zealand agreed to pay some $105 million over 10 years to lease the fighters, providing additional funds that could be used to give Pakistan some of its money back.

                  At the end of 1998, the United States announced it would pay Pakistan $326.9 million in cash and up to $140 million in other compensation to settle the eight-year dispute. The $140 million will include about $60 million in US white wheat that Pakistan will receive during the current US fiscal year, which began on October 1st. The remaining $80 million in compensation will be negotiated by the two sides. The F-16 issue has been a headache for Pakistan, which is grappling to repay millions of dollars on its $32 billion in foreign debt amid a hard currency drought caused by sanctions and the suspension of International Monetary Fund programs.

                  http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html
                  And no, it is not disinformation that weapons sales are subsidized. Offsets are standard procedure- not just for the US, but for most other countries as well. They take a wide variety of forms, but they are part of virtually every contract.
                  "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    $5.1B Proposed in Sales, Upgrades, Weapons for Pakistan's F-16s
                    Posted 05-Jul-2006 10:43
                    Related stories: Alliances, Americas - USA, Asia - Central, Asia - India, Avionics, BAE, Boeing, Bombs - General, Bombs - Smart, Contracts - Intent, ECM, Fighters & Attack, Issues - International, Issues - Political, Lockheed Martin, Missiles - Air-Air, Northrop-Grumman, Other Corporation, Radars, Raytheon, Sensors & Guidance, Support & Maintenance, Support Functions - Other, United Technologies
                    Also on this day: 05-Jul-2006 »
                    AIR_F-16A_Pakistan_Bombing.jpg
                    PAF F-16A drops Mk.82s
                    (click to view full)

                    On June 28, 2006, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAF's top of the line fighters. Some of these items had been put on hold following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan & Kashmir, but the request for new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead, along with new weapons, engine modifications and upgrades for Pakistan's older F-16 A/Bs, and related equipment.

                    These items are detailed below... along with some of the controversies the proposed sales are likely to create. Note that these notices of a potential sale are required by law, but do not mean that the sale has been concluded - the US Congress has 30 days to review the sale, and it will go through unless legislation is passed to block it. As such, any controversies created could have an effect on the final outcome.

                    Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s - $3 billion
                    AIR_F-16_Block52_Greece.jpg
                    Greek F-16 Block 50/52s
                    (click to view full)

                    The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 36 F-16C Block 50 and F-16D Block 52 two-seater aircraft - other reports indicate a buy of 18 jets, with an option for another 18. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $3 billion.

                    While Pakistan's existing F-16s use the Pratt & Whitney F100 engine, the new planes will be equipped with either the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 or General Electric's F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs). They will also be equipped with the APG-68(V)9 radars, which are the most modern F-16 radar except for the UAE's F-16E/F Block 60 "Desert Falcons" and their AN/APG-80 AESA radars; AESA radars have also reportedly been fitted to some US aircraft.

                    The package for Pakistan's new F-16s also includes:

                    * 7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines
                    * 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
                    * 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
                    * 36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
                    * 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft's sides to give them extra range
                    * 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; DID has covered the tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems
                    * 36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
                    * 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
                    * 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM
                    * 1 Unit Level Trainer
                    * Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability.

                    The principal contractors will be:

                    * Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, TX
                    * Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control, Dallas, TX
                    * BAE Advanced Systems Greenlawn, NY
                    * Boeing Corporation Seattle, WA
                    * Boeing Integrated Defense Systems: St Louis, MO; Long Beach, CA; San Diego, CA
                    * Raytheon Company: Lexington, MA; Goleta, CA
                    * Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ
                    * Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX
                    * Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD
                    * United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT; or
                    * General Electric Aircraft Engines in Cincinnati, OH

                    There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support and program management of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF format].

                    Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s - $650 Million

                    To equip those new F-16s, the Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:

                    * 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
                    * 12 AMRAAM training missiles - these have seeker warheads but lack engines
                    * 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X.
                    * 240 LAU-129/A Launchers - these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles.
                    * 500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits
                    * 1,600 Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs
                    * 800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs
                    * 700 BLU-109 2,000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse
                    * Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided.

                    The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $650 million. The principal contractors will be:

                    * BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY
                    * Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
                    * Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX
                    * Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX
                    * Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD

                    There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF format].

                    Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits - $1.3 billion

                    The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:

                    * APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar, which is a much smaller improvement on earlier F-16s. The APG-68 with SAR is far better at air to ground work, and can be used to monitor ground activity.
                    * Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
                    * AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
                    * AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems
                    * Have Quick I/II Radios
                    * Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT)
                    * SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability
                    * Reconnaissance pod capability
                    * Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (used for training exercises)
                    * MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
                    * 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
                    * 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
                    * 1 Unit Level Trainer; and
                    * 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.
                    * Radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support.

                    ELEC_JHMCS_Visor.jpg
                    JHMCS

                    The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $1.3 billion.

                    According to the US DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the MLU Program equipment "to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistan's F-16A/B squadron to operate safely, and enhance Pakistan's conventional deterrent capability. Pakistan's air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft."

                    The principal contractors will be:

                    * BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY
                    * Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
                    * Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX
                    * Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX
                    * Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD

                    There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives. See DSCA release [PDF format].

                    InsideDefense.com makes the interesting observation that Pakistan doesn't have 60 F-16s to upgrade. The clear implication is that the Pakistani government is interested in buying used F-16s from other countries and upgrading them.

                    Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR - $151 Million
                    F100 engine
                    F100 Engine Test

                    The third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.

                    More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:

                    * 14 F100-PW-220E engines
                    * 14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits
                    * De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft
                    * Support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.

                    The principal contractors will be:

                    * Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
                    * United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT.

                    There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale, but implementation of the engine modifications and UP/STAR repairs will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF format].

                    Potential Controversies
                    GEO_Afghanistan_ISAF_British_Zone_Map.jpg
                    ISAF, S. Afghanistan
                    (click to view full)

                    The DSCA has said that "Release of this system would not significantly reduce India's quantitative or qualitative military advantage." India disagrees, and military experts in Delhi will likely note that the same equipment (GPS, targeting pods, bunker-busters) that could potentially find uses against al-Qaeda terrorists in Pakistan's "lawless frontier" could also be used in precision strikes on India's military facilities in the event of war.

                    The DSCA counters that release of the F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft to Pakistan "will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce a new technology as this level of capability or higher already exists in other countries in the region." India does operate more advanced SU-30MKI aircraft with R-77 "AMRAAMski" missiles, advanced avionics, et. al.; these are superior in range, armament, and maneuverability to Pakistan's F-16s, and will remain so. Meanwhile, India's $7-10 billion MRCA competition is certain to introduce 125-200 aircraft that are certain to be more advanced than the F-16 Block 50/52.

                    The US DSCA adds in its submission to Congress that "The modification of the engines and Falcon UP/STAR structural updates will provide capable F-16's that can be used for close air support in ongoing operations contributing to the GWOT." The DSCA also cites the June 2004 designation of Pakistan as a Major Non-North Atlantic Treaty Organization Ally in its submission. The British commander of NATO's ISAF force in Southern Afghanistan sees Pakistan's role in a rather different light, however; he recently noted that al-Qaeda in Afghanistan is still run out of Pakistan (specifically Quetta), with Pakistani knowledge and even support from Islamist elements in its security apparatus. Ah, the dynamics of counter-insurgency in tribal societies. Pakistan angrily denies this, of course.

                    India's objections to this sale have been muted thus far, and phrased carefully to emphasize their effect on India-Pakistan ties rather than India-US ties. Meanwhile, President Bush's personal diplomacy approach has fostered a strong relationship with Gen. Musharraf that is inclined to view such requests favourably as part of the USA's 3-corner balancing act in the region. Barring unusual circumstances, therefore, it's reasonable to expect this sale to go through with little more than a concerned speech or two in Congress.

                    UPDATES:

                    * July 20/06: Well, here's the first copncerned speech from an opposed Congressman: Eliot Engel [D-NY], citing Pakistan's support for terrorism in India. Mr Engel is a senior member of the House International Relations Committee, and was one of the first Members of Congress to come out in favour of the proposed India-US nuclear energy deal. He'll be making his views public at the July 20, 2006 House International Relations Committee hearing on the Pakistan sales - and that meeting will tell us if opposition to the deal has real traction.

                    http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...f16s/index.php
                    a win win for Pak.

                    Upgraded.

                    Subsidised or done free?


                    "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                    I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                    HAKUNA MATATA

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ray View Post
                      ...Subsidised or done free?
                      Sir, as I understand it, 50% of the $6 Billion in US Aid for Pakistan can be used for military purposes, the other 50% must be for other uses (civilian infrastructure, food, medicine, etc.). Some of these funds may already have been used, but presumably the remainder will be used in this deal.
                      "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Maybe.

                        But to claim that the US is not giving AID and also not subsidising or giving things free is like looking a gift horse in the teeth and wondering why it is not made out of GOLD! :shock:

                        There are many issues of the US government that does not appeal to me, but I am not cussed to state that nothing good the US govt is doing around the world!

                        The first two F 16s were FREE!

                        There is a thread and news item on this forum where the Pakistani PM Aziz said so!

                        And if the US stops giving aid and stops WB and IMF, Pakistan will SINK and China would not be too keen to salvage Pakistan either! It is not that Paksitan is a child of China. China has her own priorities to look into. If she didn't, Pakistan would be the last one kowtowing to Bush. There are enough posts here of Pakistanis who have openly stated that the US is a fair weather friend and China is the true friend!
                        Last edited by Ray; 22 Sep 06,, 19:29.


                        "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                        I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                        HAKUNA MATATA

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ray View Post
                          ...There are enough posts here of Pakistanis who have openly stated that the US is a fair weather friend and China is the true friend!
                          And many Indians who say the same thing, to be fair.

                          These comments stem from the fact that the US has rules on how our aid and weapons are used, and certain conditions that countries have to abide by to be eligible for that aid. When the rules are not followed, we cut off the aid/weapons. Pakistan and India both have experienced this more than once.

                          This makes us "Fair Weather Friends".

                          Being the US, we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
                          "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by highsea View Post
                            And many Indians who say the same thing, to be fair.

                            These comments stem from the fact that the US has rules on how our aid and weapons are used, and certain conditions that countries have to abide by to be eligible for that aid. When the rules are not followed, we cut off the aid/weapons. Pakistan and India both have experienced this more than once.

                            This makes us "Fair Weather Friends".

                            Being the US, we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
                            The US has never been India's friend before and so the issue of being a fair weather friend does not arise.

                            India is now a friend of the US, but on equal terms. Why so? We have money to pay and not beg. Yet, it is friendship on both sides that we are ready to exchange items on cash and carry. Remember, the tsunami. US wanted to help. We appreciated the gesture of a friend, but we did not want to bother the US since her money was required by poorer nations. US appreciated that we had emerged from the begging bowl existence. Note how it came handy when Pakistan was hit by the earthquake!

                            The friendship with the US is stronger than ever before because the US is not afraid that India, unlike others, will whimper and weep for money at every sneeze that upsets the economy or at every cough of God!

                            The US had given aid to India before (cold war days), but then it was not the sole donor. Others were equally around in case of need I will admit.

                            If the US does not support India now, it will be disappointing but one still can't claim that it is a fair weather friend since the US is pursuing her policy and India hers and India or the US is doing no favors to each other. US needs India and India needs US because our strategic and economic goals are common.

                            Now take this scenario. If the US smashes Pakistan, as Armitage said, then India would be obligated and will have to admit that US has done India a great favour by removing a perenial pinprick. But the US is not doing so.

                            In fact, the US is nursing Pakistan as any doting parent would. So it is a sine non qua that US is pursuing a policy that suits her and not India!

                            US is a friend in so far as it is not working actively against India and that is quite a departure from the past!

                            I am sure India appreciates that US is neither for nor against India and that is a good start for a great friendship that beckons on the horizon of Time.
                            Last edited by Ray; 22 Sep 06,, 20:10.


                            "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                            I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                            HAKUNA MATATA

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ray View Post
                              If the US does not support India now, it will be disappointing but one still can't claim that it is a fair weather friend since the US is pursuing her policy and India hers and India or the US is doing no favors to each other. US needs India and India needs US because our strategic and economic goals are common.
                              I agree Sir, I was speaking to what Indian Internet Warriors say on the various Forums, not what is reality. Referring to the comments re the nuke deal, MRCA tender, MCTR, sanctions over the nuke tests, Iran, etc. The common theme is "don't trust the US", same comments we hear from many Pakistani posters.

                              The US doesn't hide our policies wrt introducing new military capabilities into a region, or non-proliferation and the NPT. We have been pretty consistent in that regard, no matter who is in power at the moment. As long as those policies coincide with what a country wants to do, every thing is rosy. But when things diverge, the US is always the one to blame, lol.
                              "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X