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Praxus
19 Jan 04,, 03:38
Who do you think is militarily the most powerful nation in Western Europe?

Blademaster
19 Jan 04,, 08:38
By capabilities, I would say French with Brit a close second.

Then it is Germany followed by Sweden. After that, it is all cookie crumbs.

Officer of Engineers
19 Jan 04,, 17:26
Not a valid question. The Europeans are so intertwained that it is impossible to seperate the postures. The Netherland's navy might as well be part of the RN (and their marines part of the RM) and their army is another div within the BW.

Without Germany, no one, not even the French can force project into Africa and the Italians are securing the Balkans from spreading.

Then, there is Turkey which has by far the largest military outside of Russia in Europe.

Ironduke
19 Jan 04,, 18:15
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
Then, there is Turkey which has by far the largest military outside of Russia in Europe.

Heh, listen to this guy:


Reazzurro90 Posted: Jan 18 2004, 12:52 PM

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True, but Greece is ahead in technology. I mean, the Turkish Air Force won't be enough against the Greek. Plus, the Greeks are getting EFs. Also, you can't forget that Greece has the support of the European Union, the Kurds and Armenia.

Even without the EU and Armenia, a Kurdish revolt would occupy a large part of Turkish forces' time.

and


Stupid, geography is still an important factor. And since Greece is in the EU, they HAVE to help Greece.

I don't think he has a clue.

Trooth
19 Jan 04,, 18:35
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers

Without Germany, no one, not even the French can force project into Africa and the Italians are securing the Balkans from spreading.


I thought the French were in Africa at the moment? Please explain the "without Germany" bit.

bigross86
19 Jan 04,, 18:41
I'm pretty sure he means project power and/or actually mount a campaign.

Ironduke
19 Jan 04,, 18:44
Originally posted by Trooth
I thought the French were in Africa at the moment? Please explain the "without Germany" bit.
I think it's very common for the Euros to "rent" each others equipment, especially transports.

Officer of Engineers
19 Jan 04,, 18:52
Trooth,

Aside from the other esteemed members mentioned, the Germans are backfilling alot of French obligations in the Balkans and providing support to the French in SFOR and KFOR. Without this support, the French would have to take their LOG trains supporting their African campaigns and committ them to the Balkans.

Trooth
19 Jan 04,, 21:01
Aside from the other esteemed members mentioned, the Germans are backfilling alot of French obligations in the Balkans and providing support to the French in SFOR and KFOR. Without this support, the French would have to take their LOG trains supporting their African campaigns and committ them to the Balkans.


i suppose. But number of number of deployments is somewhat subjective. As nations roll in and out of peacekeeping efforts they effectively backfill each other don't they?

It will all get a little tenuous if you call that a depedancy, i thought that was part of the point of UN, NATO etc?

Officer of Engineers
19 Jan 04,, 21:22
The UN does absolutely nothing about backfilling. When an army's mandate is over with any UN mission, it leaves lock, stock, and barrel, and the next guy who comes in better bring his own kitchen sink because we ain't leaving ours behind. I certainly was not about to give the Nigerians any of my ammo nor my food and water out of my sqdrn's budget.

SFOR and KFOR are treaty obligations. That is France is legally committed to those missions. Africa is not. Thus, without German support, France would have a tough time living up to her obligations.

As it currently stands, France lacked the force projection to go anywhere else. Only four countries had committed brigade size forces to Afghanistan - US, UK, Germany, and Canada. Turkey and the Netherlands required joint efforts with Germany. It isn't as though that the French was unwilling after committing SOF and their naval air arm to the Taliban War and even contributed to the ISAF. It is because they can't.

Trooth
19 Jan 04,, 21:30
I see. I wasn't suggesting the UN, NATO itself provides resources, more the UN provides the umbrella under which nations cooperate. I was under the impression that, one of the purposes, was so that the nation states themselves don't have to have treaty committments, it is that the likes ok UN, NATO do and the member states have to fullfil those roles on behalf of, say, NATO. So whilst the nation states have their own logistical problems, they can upsticks and have another nation backfill them.

But from your comments that isn't so?

Officer of Engineers
19 Jan 04,, 21:48
Force contributors to any UN mission can provide the logistical support, meaning transport. My battle group svc bn did help transport supplies to the Nigerians but no way in hell did we pay for those supplies, nor would it be from our stocks (ie, we ain't selling any to the Nigerians).

Wheras under NATO obligations, we can buy, borrow, and steal from each other (and often done).

The sole exception that I can think of is the USN who provided the logistical support and supplies to those missions, East Timor and Sierra Leonne, so that the US doesn't have to dirty themselves with those deployments. HCMS Protecteur was deployed to East Timor as the support vessel but the supplies were loaded in Australia and did not come out of Canadian Forces/Maritime Command's budget nor stocks. The same with the two C-130s we deployed.

I cannot think of any other mission, even Rwanda and Srebrenicia where force members left things behind for others to use.

I'm thinking back to my UNPROFOR days during the seige of Sarajevo. All my stocks came from my regt's holdings in Canada. I didn't use any of the BRITBAT nor FREBAT stocks though I do know that our sgts traded a hell of alot but that is not anything I should know about.

Confed999
19 Jan 04,, 22:12
Originally posted by Praxus
Who do you think is militarily the most powerful nation in Western Europe?
I'm gonna be a jerk and say the most powerful nation in western Europe is... the USA, and we don't even live there, we just rent. =P

Ironduke
19 Jan 04,, 22:18
Hah, it's the truth. We certainly aren't the most powerful Western European state, but we are the most powerful state IN Western Europe :)

Good one Confed :)

Confed999
19 Jan 04,, 22:21
Originally posted by Ironman
Good one Confed :)
At least I got 1 smile out of it, before the flames begin. ;)

Praxus
20 Jan 04,, 23:51
I agree:-D

Anvilanthony
08 Feb 04,, 17:45
Do snipers still roam Sarajevo? Is it still a warzone or has that passed? I mean, eastern europe is a crap hole because of all that soviet rule that destroyed their entire societies.

Ray
09 Feb 04,, 01:35
Confed,

Want a flame?

US creeps out of the woodwork.:D

What the Colonel is writing about backfilling, that should be correct. There cannot be a strategic vacuum amongst partners.

Further, in the debate Greece vs Turkey, don't forget the strategic depth. This is an important factor in the conduct of any war.

Officer of Engineers
09 Feb 04,, 03:16
Originally posted by Anvilanthony
Do snipers still roam Sarajevo? Is it still a warzone or has that passed? I mean, eastern europe is a crap hole because of all that soviet rule that destroyed their entire societies.

SFOR II is keeping the peace there and sniper activities are non-existing. The Czech Republic, Poland, and Hungary are doing quite well.

Confed999
09 Feb 04,, 03:40
Originally posted by Anvilanthony
eastern europe is a crap hole because of all that soviet rule that destroyed their entire societies.
Really? I allways saw their societies as one of the many reasons the USSR fell. I'm not sure they ever really stopped resisting Soviet rule.


Originally posted by Ray
Confed,

Want a flame?

US creeps out of the woodwork.:D
Nah, we buy or push our way in. ;)

Leader
09 Feb 04,, 03:51
Originally posted by Anvilanthony
I mean, eastern europe is a crap hole because of all that soviet rule that destroyed their entire societies.

They are the only ones who had the balls to stand up and do the right thing by backing America.

Confed999
09 Feb 04,, 03:55
Originally posted by Leader
They are the only ones who had the balls to stand up and do the right thing by backing America.
When you've been ruled by tyrants, supporting freedom seems like a no brainer. Plus I think they wanted to show France and Germany they couldn't dictate terms to them.

Leader
09 Feb 04,, 04:36
Originally posted by Confed999
When you've been ruled by tyrants, supporting freedom seems like a no brainer. Plus I think they wanted to show France and Germany they couldn't dictate terms to them.

Either way good for them.

StGeorge
20 Apr 04,, 18:23
The UK is the most powerful country in the EU, and it is second only to Russia in the whole of Europe. Even Turkey and Germany are ranked higher than France.

http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/databases/armies/e.asp

Look at the "Land Power" column on the left.

StGeorge
20 Apr 04,, 18:34
This is the key so that you know what all the numbers mean -


COLUMN KEY

COUNTRY lists every nation with a combat value of one or more. Nations with a combat value of less than 1 have little more than national police capability. Many smaller countries, especially those that lack a threatening neighbor, use their forces primarily for internal security. These lesser military powers often repel an invasion most effectively simply by arming the population. Nations are grouped into four regions: Europe; Middle East and North Africa; Asia and the Pacific; and the Americas.

RNK is the ranking of each nation within its region

COMBAT POWER LAND is the total combat capability of the nation's armed forces except for their navies. Certain nations like Israel, Sweden and Switzerland have a rapid mobilization capability which achieves the combat value shown within three days of mobilization. Their normal, unmobilized, combat value is less than one third of the value shown. As explained elsewhere, combat value is modified by geographical, climate and political factors. The value given here is a combination of the quantity and quality of manpower, equipment and weapons. This raw combat value is then multiplied by the force multiplier (see below) to combat value shown in this column.

NAVAL capability is separate from land value and is found on the Naval Forces chart.

TOT QUAL (total force quality) is a fraction by which raw (theoretical) combat power should be multiplied to account for imperfect leadership, component of force quality, support, training and other "soft" factors. Think of it as an efficiency rating, with "100" being perfect and "55" being a more common 55 percent efficiency.

TOT POP (population in millions) indicates the nation's relative military manpower resources. Population is also a more meaningful indicator of a nation's size than territory.

GDP (Gross Domestic Product) is a rough gage of the nation's economic power. This does not translate immediately into military power because of the time needed to convert industry from civilian to military production. Mobilization of some types of military equipment takes years. Other types of weapons, especially those using electronics, can be brought to bear in months.

ACT MEN (active military manpower in thousands) is the total uniformed, paid manpower organized into combat and support units. Because of the widely varying systems of organizing military manpower, this figure is at best a good indicator of the personnel devoted to the military. Industrialized nations hire many civilians to perform support duties, while other nations flesh out skeleton units with ill-prepared reserves, uncertain effect on wartime strength. The use of reserve troops varies considerably.

MIL BUD (Military Budget in millions of dollars) is the current annual armed forces spending of that nation. All nations use somewhat different accounting systems for defense spending. Efforts are made to eliminate some of the more gross attempts at hiding arms expenditures. Some of the figures, particularly for smaller nations, may be off by 10 percent either way.

BUD MAN is the annual cost per man for armed forces in dollars. This is an excellent indicator of the quantity and, to a lesser extent, the quality of weapons and equipment. Some adjustments should be made for different levels of personnel costs, research and development, strategic weapons and waste. The United States, in particular, is prone to all four afflictions. The precise adjustments for these factors are highly debatable. One possible adjustment would be to cut the US cost per man by at least one third. Other nations with strategic programs and large R&D establishments (Russia, Britain, France, China, etc.) should be adjusted with deductions of no more than 15 percent. Britain could also take another 5 or 10 percent cut because of its all-volunteer forces higher payroll. At the other extreme, many nations produce a credible defense force using far less wealth. Low paid conscripts, good leadership and the sheer need to improvise enables many of these poorer nations to overcome their low budgets. However, most nations end up with what they pay for.

AFV (Armored Fighting Vehicles). These include tanks, armored personnel carriers and most other armored combat and support vehicles. AFV are the primary components of a ground offensive, and greatly enhance chances of success.

AIRCRAFT CMBT are the number of combat aircraft devoted to land operations. This, like AFV, is a good indicator of raw power. The quality of the aircraft, their pilots, ground crew and leadership, air force are the most important factors in the air power's overall value.

The Total Quality is calculated by assigning 0 (lowest) to 9 (highest) values for the following components of combat capability.

Ldrs is leadership. The quality of officers and NCOs.

Eqp is equipment. The quantity and quality of military equipment.

Exp is experience. Not just combat experience, but the quality of training.

Spt is support. This is logistics, the ability to get military supplies to the troops.

Mob is mobilization. The ability to mobilize the national resources for combat.

Trad is tradition. Military tradition, good military habits, based on practical experience.

StGeorge
20 Apr 04,, 18:42
And this is the world's largest navies. As you can see, the UK has BY FAR the second most powerful navy in the world, but it still far behind the US which holds 53.46% of the world's naval power. The UK is second with 8.11% of the world's naval power. Then it is Russia when 8.02%, then Japan with 4.65%. France has just 2.43% of the world's naval power.


http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/databases/navy/navalforcesoftheworld.asp

StGeorge
20 Apr 04,, 18:45
You might be suprised to learn that Italy has more ships than Fance! Italy has 68 ships and France only has 43. The UK has 102.

AlexKall
16 Jul 04,, 23:36
I thought the French were in Africa at the moment? Please explain the "without Germany" bit.


France and Sweden as of what i know.

AzzurroItalia
28 Jul 04,, 14:51
You might be suprised to learn that Italy has more ships than Fance! Italy has 68 ships and France only has 43. The UK has 102.



Well you learn something new every single day, now don't you? Anyway, for Western Europe's strongest nation, I'd go with France. Miriginally though. Then England, Germany, Italy, and Spain.

eMGee
28 Jul 04,, 15:03
Then, there is Turkey which has by far the largest military outside of Russia in Europe.

TURKEY IS NOT EUROPE!! :mad:

Officer of Engineers
01 Aug 04,, 21:01
TURKEY IS NOT EUROPE!! :mad:

Get over yourself.


From CIA - The World Factbook -- Turkey (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tu.html)
Geography Turkey Location:
southeastern Europe and southwestern Asia (that portion of Turkey west of the Bosporus is geographically part of Europe), bordering the Black Sea, between Bulgaria and Georgia, and bordering the Aegean Sea and the Mediterranean Sea, between Greece and Syria

Ironduke
01 Aug 04,, 21:08
Do snipers still roam Sarajevo? Is it still a warzone or has that passed? I mean, eastern europe is a crap hole because of all that soviet rule that destroyed their entire societies.
Yugoslavia was not a part of the Soviet bloc, and while communist, it traded mainly with the West and was relatively wealthy compared to many nations in eastern Europe.

Bueller
03 Aug 04,, 05:18
GDP (Gross Domestic Product) is a rough gage of the nation's economic power.

Why does Russia have the same GDP value as France and the UK?

Kelu
03 Aug 04,, 23:23
the facts seem to all have been posted, And it seems without question that in means of most "powerfull" .. France and England Both parr with each other .. But powerfull doesnt actually mean that successfull/ resourcefull/ Or any good at all .. I would say France would lose to anyone who decides to smike them .. The UK is ever decreasing its military size .. And even might have to if it wants a say in the E.U .. but honestly .. should france be considered a threat to anyone or anything at all? i mean .. *scoffs* Come On!? ... If at any, You wanted to throw the European lots into a mass'slaughter, There would be but one victor .. "Ze'Russians" Europe is at most the second most powerfull area of the world, Following very closely now behind the U.S .. but then again .. what are the chances at all of Europe actually becoming a single nation or collection of states on their own at all, Slim Ta'none i would say ....

Due to balancing ALL other things other than who could blow the shit out of the other quickest, England has always and is still the most powerfull and influencefull in Europe .. having the strongest currency that even outweights the "yanky" dollor ( Sorry Joe Man ) .. Money has always been the key to winning modern wars it seems ..

Recon_sgt
15 Oct 04,, 11:38
The sole exception that I can think of is the USN who provided the logistical support and supplies to those missions, East Timor
East Timor you say. My unit (ARW) was there on operations. That was our first noticed operation theatre (prior to that operated in relative obscurity).
I wasnt there personnally though. :cool:

Recon_sgt
15 Oct 04,, 11:45
Sorry to say Kelu you are off the mark by a long shot. France is very capable especially the way todays battlefield functions. I have seen some of their equipment and its quite good. But I have also seen the legion in action and that is impressive. 9 Regiments make up the Legion and they are the top infantry force in the world (I tell no lie). The Legion go where others will not.
Congo (people trapped in civil war incident), Somalia after the U.S. left etc.

I advise you to research the thing you said about UK decreasing military size more closely. Would it interest you to know that this has been said many times over the last number of years and is about to happen but never does.
The reason is the MOD says to do so would be unsustainable and the idea is scrapped. :cool:

Officer of Engineers
15 Oct 04,, 11:50
East Timor you say. My unit (ARW) was there on operations. That was our first noticed operation theatre (prior to that operated in relative obscurity).
I wasnt there personnally though. :cool:
So you guys are both snake-eaters and door kickers?

Recon_sgt
15 Oct 04,, 16:01
Hell yeah, ARW are full blown special forces in every sense of the word.
If you need someone to compare us to the SAS is the closest comparison by way of the variety of tasks we do. :cool: .
If you want to get the basic publisised info on the wing just visit irishmilitary.ie and that should give you the details on our roles (As detailed as the press office is allowed to give). :cool:

Nicov
10 Sep 07,, 03:21
I'd say France then UK and Germany. But those three are very close.
I consider Russia and Turkey as asiatic powers.

entropy
10 Sep 07,, 11:50
The Vatican.

Big K
10 Sep 07,, 15:52
Russia, Germany, Vatican...

Feanor
10 Sep 07,, 23:43
The Grey Havens.


EDIT: No seriously. This is kind of dumb. We're simply spitting out opinions instead of intellegently debating it.

Kansas Bear
11 Sep 07,, 05:23
The Vatican.

Can't trust those Swiss guards!!! :eek:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Swiss_Guard.jpg/210px-Swiss_Guard.jpg

Espcially if they dress like that!!! :biggrin:

xrough
19 Sep 07,, 05:23
The Vatican.

I second the motion..:)) :))

Indirect Fire
27 Sep 07,, 04:11
This is a dead thread.... Take a look at post dates.

kompikos
28 Sep 07,, 21:59
Heh, listen to this guy:

Quote:
"Reazzurro90 Posted: Jan 18 2004, 12:52 PM

True, but Greece is ahead in technology. I mean, the Turkish Air Force won't be enough against the Greek. Plus, the Greeks are getting EFs. Also, you can't forget that Greece has the support of the European Union, the Kurds and Armenia.

Even without the EU and Armenia, a Kurdish revolt would occupy a large part of Turkish forces' time."

and

"Quote:
Stupid, geography is still an important factor. And since Greece is in the EU, they HAVE to help Greece."

I don't think he has a clue.


ok now READ this before you say he doesn't have a clue:

Armed Forces of the World Database European Nations (http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/databases/armies/e.asp)

Greece is 11th out of 40 in respect of power worldwide and far ahaid from the 12th and bellow, in the rating.

As far as Navy is conserned:

Database of Warships (http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/howtomakewar/databases/navy/navalforcesoftheworld.asp)

6th in worldwide combat value.

I don't agree that the Turks won't be enough although we are getting the EFs but right now even though the Turks are bigger in numbers, Greece has respected numbers (see ratings) and right now is ahead in technology (see F-16 Block 52+ and Advanced 52+, Leopard 2HEL combat tank, Type 204 Submarines e.t.c.)

HistoricalDavid
28 Sep 07,, 22:28
Greeks and Turks: Indians and Pakistanis, just repackaged.

kompikos
01 Oct 07,, 19:25
Greeks and Turks: Indians and Pakistanis, just repackaged.

You may be right really...I don't know. To be ohnest I think that being allies in NATO and enemies in the region is hypocritical in a way...

Ironduke
01 Oct 07,, 19:39
Thread locked. :)