Most Powerful European Nation

[Praxus]

Who do you think is militarily the most powerful nation in Western Europe?

[Blademaster]

By capabilities, I would say French with Brit a close second.

Then it is Germany followed by Sweden. After that, it is all cookie crumbs.

[Officer of Engineers]

Not a valid question. The Europeans are so intertwained that it is impossible to seperate the postures. The Netherland's navy might as well be part of the RN (and their marines part of the RM) and their army is another div within the BW.

Without Germany, no one, not even the French can force project into Africa and the Italians are securing the Balkans from spreading.

Then, there is Turkey which has by far the largest military outside of Russia in Europe.

[Ironduke]

Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
Then, there is Turkey which has by far the largest military outside of Russia in Europe.

Heh, listen to this guy:

Reazzurro90 Posted: Jan 18 2004, 12:52 PM

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True, but Greece is ahead in technology. I mean, the Turkish Air Force won't be enough against the Greek. Plus, the Greeks are getting EFs. Also, you can't forget that Greece has the support of the European Union, the Kurds and Armenia.

Even without the EU and Armenia, a Kurdish revolt would occupy a large part of Turkish forces' time.

and

Stupid, geography is still an important factor. And since Greece is in the EU, they HAVE to help Greece.

I don't think he has a clue.

[Trooth]

Originally posted by Officer of Engineers

Without Germany, no one, not even the French can force project into Africa and the Italians are securing the Balkans from spreading.

I thought the French were in Africa at the moment? Please explain the "without Germany" bit.

[bigross86]

I'm pretty sure he means project power and/or actually mount a campaign.

[Ironduke]

Originally posted by Trooth
I thought the French were in Africa at the moment? Please explain the "without Germany" bit.

I think it's very common for the Euros to "rent" each others equipment, especially transports.

[Officer of Engineers]

Trooth,

Aside from the other esteemed members mentioned, the Germans are backfilling alot of French obligations in the Balkans and providing support to the French in SFOR and KFOR. Without this support, the French would have to take their LOG trains supporting their African campaigns and committ them to the Balkans.

[Trooth]

Aside from the other esteemed members mentioned, the Germans are backfilling alot of French obligations in the Balkans and providing support to the French in SFOR and KFOR. Without this support, the French would have to take their LOG trains supporting their African campaigns and committ them to the Balkans.

i suppose. But number of number of deployments is somewhat subjective. As nations roll in and out of peacekeeping efforts they effectively backfill each other don't they?

It will all get a little tenuous if you call that a depedancy, i thought that was part of the point of UN, NATO etc?

[Officer of Engineers]

The UN does absolutely nothing about backfilling. When an army's mandate is over with any UN mission, it leaves lock, stock, and barrel, and the next guy who comes in better bring his own kitchen sink because we ain't leaving ours behind. I certainly was not about to give the Nigerians any of my ammo nor my food and water out of my sqdrn's budget.

SFOR and KFOR are treaty obligations. That is France is legally committed to those missions. Africa is not. Thus, without German support, France would have a tough time living up to her obligations.

As it currently stands, France lacked the force projection to go anywhere else. Only four countries had committed brigade size forces to Afghanistan - US, UK, Germany, and Canada. Turkey and the Netherlands required joint efforts with Germany. It isn't as though that the French was unwilling after committing SOF and their naval air arm to the Taliban War and even contributed to the ISAF. It is because they can't.

[Trooth]

I see. I wasn't suggesting the UN, NATO itself provides resources, more the UN provides the umbrella under which nations cooperate. I was under the impression that, one of the purposes, was so that the nation states themselves don't have to have treaty committments, it is that the likes ok UN, NATO do and the member states have to fullfil those roles on behalf of, say, NATO. So whilst the nation states have their own logistical problems, they can upsticks and have another nation backfill them.

But from your comments that isn't so?

[Officer of Engineers]

Force contributors to any UN mission can provide the logistical support, meaning transport. My battle group svc bn did help transport supplies to the Nigerians but no way in hell did we pay for those supplies, nor would it be from our stocks (ie, we ain't selling any to the Nigerians).

Wheras under NATO obligations, we can buy, borrow, and steal from each other (and often done).

The sole exception that I can think of is the USN who provided the logistical support and supplies to those missions, East Timor and Sierra Leonne, so that the US doesn't have to dirty themselves with those deployments. HCMS Protecteur was deployed to East Timor as the support vessel but the supplies were loaded in Australia and did not come out of Canadian Forces/Maritime Command's budget nor stocks. The same with the two C-130s we deployed.

I cannot think of any other mission, even Rwanda and Srebrenicia where force members left things behind for others to use.

I'm thinking back to my UNPROFOR days during the seige of Sarajevo. All my stocks came from my regt's holdings in Canada. I didn't use any of the BRITBAT nor FREBAT stocks though I do know that our sgts traded a hell of alot but that is not anything I should know about.

[Confed999]

Re: Most Powerful European Nation

Originally posted by Praxus
Who do you think is militarily the most powerful nation in Western Europe?

I'm gonna be a jerk and say the most powerful nation in western Europe is... the USA, and we don't even live there, we just rent. =P

[Ironduke]

Hah, it's the truth. We certainly aren't the most powerful Western European state, but we are the most powerful state IN Western Europe :)

Good one Confed :)

[Confed999]

Originally posted by Ironman
Good one Confed :)

At least I got 1 smile out of it, before the flames begin. ;)