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Neo
11 Sep 06,, 17:12
Row over Lucknow Catholic schools

Roman Catholic schools in the northern Indian city of Lucknow have remained shut in protest against an attack on one of the city's premier schools.
Hindu activists damaged property at the Loreto Convent girls' school on Sunday, after it organised a controversial occult show.

They accuse the school of trying to convert students to Christianity.

Loreto Convent has rejected the charge and says the show was organised to help children develop spiritually.

The controversy centres on a prayer session held last week, when a visiting spiritual healer claimed Jesus Christ had entered his body to bless those present.

Many of the students later said they were scared, and some of the girls even fainted during the session.

After this was reported by newspapers, activists of the youth wing of Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) vandalised parts of the school, breaking flower ports and window panes.

Police arrested three people, but later released them on bail.

The state administration has ordered an inquiry into the incident and a report is expected in the coming days.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5335626.stm

Neo
11 Sep 06,, 17:15
Secularism is coming under serious threat again.
I wonder if BJP was behind the Malegaon blast.

raj
11 Sep 06,, 17:52
Secularism is coming under serious threat again.
I wonder if BJP was behind the Malegaon blast.

and sun rises from the west

Tronic
11 Sep 06,, 18:29
Secularism is coming under serious threat again.
I wonder if BJP was behind the Malegaon blast.
BJP is not that stupid to organize terror blasts....... they have to be extremely stupid to cause such blasts because if they do, they will cease to exist as a political party... those terror blasts are being probed but IMO, I think we already know who benefits from the Malegaon blasts most... but neverthless, BJP and RSS are both fanatic assholes...

SLASH
11 Sep 06,, 19:33
Secularism is coming under serious threat again.
I wonder if BJP was behind the Malegaon blast.

Kashmiri Muslims shout anti-terror slogans during a protest against Friday's blast in Malegaon.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?msid=1975478

Children hold a banner in Kolkata as they attend a prayer meeting for the Malegaon blast victims.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?msid=1975477

Members of the Young Muslim Anti-Terrorist Committee burning some random flag :rolleyes: during a protest against Friday's blast in Malegaon.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?msid=1975487

Neo
11 Sep 06,, 19:41
I'm sure Loreto Convent girls' school would find some comfort in your post and feel safe again. :)

SLASH
11 Sep 06,, 19:44
I'm sure Loreto Convent girls' school would find some comfort in your post and feel safe again. :)

And what exactly are they afraid about???

Archer
11 Sep 06,, 20:58
Secularism is coming under serious threat again.
I wonder if BJP was behind the Malegaon blast.

Having a Pakistani talk about secularism, is like having a virgin talk about the sins of sex! :rolleyes: :biggrin:


I'm sure Loreto Convent girls' school would find some comfort in your post and feel safe again. :)

Why dont you have your Hudood law repealed, before talking big about women & safety. :rolleyes:

Archer
11 Sep 06,, 21:05
BJP is not that stupid to organize terror blasts....... they have to be extremely stupid to cause such blasts because if they do, they will cease to exist as a political party... those terror blasts are being probed but IMO, I think we already know who benefits from the Malegaon blasts most... but neverthless, BJP and RSS are both fanatic assholes...

RSS is an avowedly hindu-centric organization, never made any bones about it..hence accusing it of fanaticism is pointless..its like calling the Shankaracharya or the Vatican fanatical, well they would be..though the correct term would be fervent..:cool:

BJP is hardly fanatical...its more of a "khichdi". It listens to the RSS (it has to - it relies on them to win it elections), but it has moderates like Vajpayee, to hardliners ..takes all kinds to be in politics..

The BJP is basically India's version of the Republicans..the Congress-I, democrats. Their external policies and internal ones are also remarkably similar in many respects.

Tronic
12 Sep 06,, 00:53
RSS is an avowedly hindu-centric organization, never made any bones about it..hence accusing it of fanaticism is pointless..its like calling the Shankaracharya or the Vatican fanatical, well they would be..though the correct term would be fervent..:cool:

BJP is hardly fanatical...its more of a "khichdi". It listens to the RSS (it has to - it relies on them to win it elections), but it has moderates like Vajpayee, to hardliners ..takes all kinds to be in politics..

The BJP is basically India's version of the Republicans..the Congress-I, democrats. Their external policies and internal ones are also remarkably similar in many respects.

I don't like any political movement which favours a certain religion over another... just like the @sshole Akali Dals... These are Indian political parties and they should represent the common Indian people, not Indian people of only a certain religion..... and yes, Vajpayee is truly a very very good man but he is not leading the BJP anymore, its Advani a.k.a. Adolf Hitler...

Tronic
12 Sep 06,, 00:55
Kashmiri Muslims shout anti-terror slogans during a protest against Friday's blast in Malegaon.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?msid=1975478

Children hold a banner in Kolkata as they attend a prayer meeting for the Malegaon blast victims.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?msid=1975477

Members of the Young Muslim Anti-Terrorist Committee burning some random flag :rolleyes: during a protest against Friday's blast in Malegaon.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?msid=1975487
hats off to these people... they say it just like true Indians....

Archer
12 Sep 06,, 04:14
I don't like any political movement which favours a certain religion over another... just like the @sshole Akali Dals... These are Indian political parties and they should represent the common Indian people, not Indian people of only a certain religion..... and yes, Vajpayee is truly a very very good man but he is not leading the BJP anymore, its Advani a.k.a. Adolf Hitler...

Re: point #1- fair enough. But given the utter mendacity of dynastic politics which has ruined the Congress at the centre (and the death of its young leaders like Scindia,Rajiv, Pilot) - the BJPs admin was fairly decent, with the one black mark that they were unable to reign in the more inflammatory idiots & the utter law and order collapse in Gujarat (failed to prevent the attack on the train, failed to prevent the rioting thereafter, failed to prosecute the rioters effectively).

Re: bold portion: You do realize that when you make comments heavy on the hyperbole it promptly leads to more flaming? Then you'll have people come in and yell at you and the whole thread gets sidetracked & there are misunderstandings galore (as with starsiege & others).

Comparing Advani to Hitler is a joke. Advani is conservative in his views but he has never advocated genocide or implemented anything of the like. So be rational please. I am no fan of Advani (I think he is a blowhard ie gasbag), but one must be circumspect in their views. When we start comparing anyone & everyone we dislike (for whatever reason) to Hitler & the Nazis, it devalues the poor evil the Nazis reflected and serves to muddle the issue.

lemontree
12 Sep 06,, 05:43
I don't like what happened in Lucknow. My sister has studied in Loretto Convent, so I know about the school. At the same time I do not condone the seanse held during the school assembly. What irks is the method used by the BJP.

The Sangh Parivar is creating an atmosphere that we can do without. By tolerating such political groups the judiciary and the govt are making a mockery of this nation and its constitution.

veera8
12 Sep 06,, 09:16
why should RSS youth wing attack a convent ?????
is it for politcal reaons? or publicity ?? .......
NO,there has to be some solid reasons why a school was attacked by RSS youth wing ....we should see both sides of coin before commenting .....

In a country like INDIA where religion is a Hyper sensitive issue we can expect more of such incidents in the near future ....

when education becomes a medium for proselytzing activites naturally tension will flare up..... education and religion should always be kept apart ...

667medic
12 Sep 06,, 09:34
This is a highly condemnible action but I do take comfort at the thought that India is secular enought that Christian girls don't get kidnapped, raped and forced to convert to another religion like what is prevalent in a neighbouring country:rolleyes:

lemontree
12 Sep 06,, 09:57
why should RSS youth wing attack a convent ?????
is it for politcal reaons? or publicity ?? .......
NO,there has to be some solid reasons why a school was attacked by RSS youth wing ....we should see both sides of coin before commenting .....
Led by goons, act like goons.

In a country like INDIA where religion is a Hyper sensitive issue we can expect more of such incidents in the near future ....
Then lets stop dreaming of being a world power and remain a little people & a small people.

when education becomes a medium for proselytzing activites naturally tension will flare up..... education and religion should always be kept apart ...
Then let people not send their children to convents, but send them to schools run by 'baniyas' like a 'baniya store', or the municipal corporations.
Try telling Arya Vidya Mandir schools, to stop making it compulsary to recite the vedic shlokas in the assembly; they even have a clause that only teachers who can recite the shlokas are given a job. That is a clear way of discriminating against other communities - have you ever seen that happen in a convent school?
Should I go and smash the nearest Arya Vidya Mandir school?...It does'nt make sense.

veera8
12 Sep 06,, 10:17
Lemon tree,

The let people not send their children to convents
so are u tacitly accepting thatt proseltying is inherent in christain convents????


The let people not send their children to convents, but send them to schools run by 'baniyas' like a 'baniya store', or the municipal corporations.
Try telling Arya Vidya Mandir schools, to stop making it compulsary to recite the vedic shlokas in the assembly; they even have a clause that only teachers who can recite the shlokas are given a job. That is a clear way of discriminating against other communities - have you ever seen that happen in a convent school?

i know why u are getting flared up( u too know the reason) ..iam not trying to offend christianity ,but christianity in the veil of education is always taught in christian schools
i myself studied in lisieux matic convent in coimbatore ...i still remember how many times i was called ( or some times forced) to join in the mass prayers ...u are either extremely luckly or complete lier if u say proseltzing activity never happens in christan convent ....


Try telling Arya Vidya Mandir schools, to stop making it compulsary to recite the vedic shlokas in the assembly
u are refuting my claims trying to point to some arya mandir schools as a excuse ,so therin u accept that proseltying activity happens in christian convents

the problem arises when one commuity thinks they are smarter and their relgion is superior to others ..lets keep education and religions miles away from one another

SLASH
12 Sep 06,, 10:26
Led by goons, act like goons.

Then lets stop dreaming of being a world power and remain a little people & a small people.

Then let people not send their children to convents, but send them to schools run by 'baniyas' like a 'baniya store', or the municipal corporations.
Try telling Arya Vidya Mandir schools, to stop making it compulsary to recite the vedic shlokas in the assembly; they even have a clause that only teachers who can recite the shlokas are given a job. That is a clear way of discriminating against other communities - have you ever seen that happen in a convent school?
Should I go and smash the nearest Arya Vidya Mandir school?...It does'nt make sense.

Very good point made there by LT.

lemontree
12 Sep 06,, 10:38
Lemon tree,
so are u tacitly accepting thatt proseltying is inherent in christain convents????
I have never denyed it, some schools have an over passionate management.

i know why u are getting flared up( u too know the reason) ..iam not trying to offend christianity
No you have'nt understood, I see you tryingh to defend the violence.

,but christianity in the veil of education is always taught in christian schools
Give me an example?

i myself studied in lisieux matic convent in coimbatore ...i still remember how many times i was called ( or some times forced) to join in the mass prayers ...
You mean assembly prayers?...what were the words.

u are either extremely luckly or complete lier if u say proseltzing activity never happens in christan convent ....
I have changed 7 schools, due to my defence background, 6 of these were convent schools, I have never seen it happen. All religious activity was exclusively for the christian students and the non-christians had a different class like moral science or an extended sports period.

u are refuting my claims trying to point to some arya mandir schools as a excuse ,so therin u accept that proseltying activity happens in christian convents
I am just showing you that while pointing fingers, remember that 3 fingers are pointing back at you.

the problem arises when one commuity thinks they are smarter and their relgion is superior to others ..
Stop being innocent, ISKON and other missionary sects are doing the same stuff in other countries. So please, don't give me the superior/ inferior story.

lets keep education and religions miles away from one another
Unfortunately in India the backbone of our educational system are the convent schools. Untill the similar schools run by secular or other religious org are set up, there is no use complaining.

The seanse held in the Loretto assembly was silly as it considered an occult act. But the solution was not to damage and terrorise. Due to this mentality the cow belt states are in the pits and will remain there till educated otherwise.

veera8
12 Sep 06,, 11:31
I have never denyed it, some schools have an over passionate management
thats the point ..as i have said relgion is hyper sensitive in india ...either we shut down all these kind of schools ,tell them loud and clear that relgion is not needed in education ...


No you have'nt understood, I see you tryingh to defend the violence.

u have completely misundersttod me ..i urged others to also look at the reasons why should a hindu extremeist RSS group attack a Education institution like convent ..without fire there can't be smoke .....i never support violence....


Give me an example?You mean assembly prayers?...what were the words.
no ,apart from assembly prayers many a times either causally or some times delibrately the fathers ( my teacher's) have asked me to come and attend the congregration in a small church in the same school premise ....i
number of times we have gathered in the same church when some high dignitaries attend our school(mostly bishops of some institutions) where the lecture abt education will finally will have a heavy coat of christianity mixed ....
open invitation have been issued to all students ,when we used to come to special exam preparations classes during sundays, to join in the evening prayers as to relax and concentrate well
is all these things not called as proseltying ??????


Stop being innocent, ISKON and other missionary sects are doing the same stuff in other countries. So please, don't give me the superior/ inferior story.
as u have told in ur own words these institutions explictily advocate relgion as their main work ..even the "ARYA" mandir schools clearly points out that they will have a heavy relgious studies ,but what has relgion has to do with common education
institutions like convents ??????


Unfortunately in India the backbone of our educational system are the convent schools. Untill the similar schools run by secular or other religious org are set up, there is no use complaining.
say these words to those RSS goons that as long u dont have better schools ,christanity will be preached along with education and u have no choice either but to accept the fact ....

dont blame me as supporting violence,iam pointing out what enraged people and u are just pusing aside the realty .with a excuse that we have no option but to accept these kind of institutions......

lemontree
12 Sep 06,, 12:07
thats the point ..as i have said relgion is hyper sensitive in india ...either we shut down all these kind of schools ,tell them loud and clear that relgion is not needed in education ...
By all mean. I agree.

u have completely misundersttod me ..i urged others to also look at the reasons why should a hindu extremeist RSS group attack a Education institution like convent ..without fire there can't be smoke .....i never support violence....
My question is what does the RSS have to be so pig headed over every issue and incite violence. Violence begets violence.

no ,apart from assembly prayers many a times either causally or some times delibrately the fathers ( my teacher's) have asked me to come and attend the congregration in a small church in the same school premise ....i
number of times we have gathered in the same church when some high dignitaries attend our school(mostly bishops of some institutions) where the lecture abt education will finally will have a heavy coat of christianity mixed ....
open invitation have been issued to all students ,when we used to come to special exam preparations classes during sundays, to join in the evening prayers as to relax and concentrate well
is all these things not called as proseltying ??????
Those are suttle methods and hallmark of evangilitic religions like chritianity, islam, buddhism and hinduism since the past 30 odd years. Evangilism is part of every religion.

as u have told in ur own words these institutions explictily advocate relgion as their main work ..even the "ARYA" mandir schools clearly points out that they will have a heavy relgious studies ,but what has relgion has to do with common education
institutions like convents ??????
Religion helps purify the soul, when given in right dozes and in a secular manner (when in a multi-religious society). It helps mold the students to be better citizens/ people.

dont blame me as supporting violence,iam pointing out what enraged people and u are just pusing aside the realty .with a excuse that we have no option but to accept these kind of institutions......
These are the types who poison our society.

Neo
12 Sep 06,, 12:36
Having a Pakistani talk about secularism, is like having a virgin talk about the sins of sex! :rolleyes: :biggrin:
No need to get personal.


Why dont you have your Hudood law repealed, before talking big about women & safety. :rolleyes:

Thread is not about Pakistan, although I understand that Pakistan remains to be the centre of the universe. ;)

veera8
12 Sep 06,, 12:51
LT,


my only point is this particular christian school should have explicitly mentioned that they are related to christian studies ...this would have given them a clean chit ,but under the aegis of secular education ,institutions like convent when they try preaching a particular relgion naturally things gets heated up ........
this gave those RSS goons to have a free hand in vandalising a education institution

no body is against practsing any religion in democratic india,but the point is make it clear and have separate instituions (like madassah,but no extremism) for relgious studies ......dont poison the mind of young siblings ....relgions and education when mixed will always be harbinger for communal tensions especailly in secular large india ......keep relgions in your homes,education should be free of religions ...this will put an end to these kind of mad violence :)

lemontree
12 Sep 06,, 13:43
LT,
my only point is this particular christian school should have explicitly mentioned that they are related to christian studies ...this would have given them a clean chit ,but under the aegis of secular education ,institutions like convent when they try preaching a particular relgion naturally things gets heated up ........
veera,
Loreto Convent, Lucknow is part of a large family of schools. The Lucknow school started in 1872 and it is not some rag-tag johny come lately school. The people of Lucknow know very well that it is an unaided private minority institution, so there is no ignorance on their part. The mission statement of the school is given below:-
http://www.loretoconvent.org/about_us.html

Mission Statement:

We wish to create a positive environment, based on Christian values, where our students have opportunities and encouragement to develop their full potential and gifts, - academic, social, creative and spiritual – within a global perspective.
As a catholic school in the Loreto tradition, we aim to create a warm and caring community. In an atmosphere of respect and fairness, through support and friendship, we affirm each person's self-worth and dignity.

We aim to provide a student-centered education that nurtures the talents and potential of all.

In co-operation with parents and guardians, we work towards the spiritual, moral, social and academic development of each student.

Staff, parents, students, past-pupils, and management co-operate for the common good.

Special concern for the disadvantaged is experienced and encouraged

Our wish is that our students will grow into happy, confident and responsible adults.
If the BJP cannot read, then we will have to make them read.

Tronic
12 Sep 06,, 15:19
and Veera, it is a convent school.... it is a Christian school to start with... you cannot put your children in a christian school and then demand that they not be preached about Christianity... These schools have much superior education then the other normal schools and that is why parents enroll their kids in such schools... look at the top schools of India, most of them happen to be convent schools... religion and education is mixed in SO many other schools... yes, I agree that religion and education should not be mixed...but even with a little dose of Christianity; most of the kids that graduate from these schools grow up to be very moderate people... and that is why so many people send these kids to convent schools in the first place... and it is surprising at your reaction that religion and education should not be mixed in Christian schools but at the same time; you're giving the RSS a justification at vandilizing the school... what about religion and politics, should THEY be mixed??? The RSS has no problem in that.... Frankly, I don't see any problem in Convent schools teaching Christianity... If you don't want that, then don't go to convent schools... simple....

veera8
12 Sep 06,, 16:52
and Veera, it is a convent school.... it is a Christian school to start with... you cannot put your children in a christian school and then demand that they not be preached about Christianity... These schools have much superior education then the other normal schools and that is why parents enroll their kids in such schools... look at the top schools of India, most of them happen to be convent schools... religion and education is mixed in SO many other schools... yes, I agree that religion and education should not be mixed...but even with a little dose of Christianity; most of the kids that graduate from these schools grow up to be very moderate people... and that is why so many people send these kids to convent schools in the first place... and it is surprising at your reaction that religion and education should not be mixed in Christian schools but at the same time; you're giving the RSS a justification at vandilizing the school... what about religion and politics, should THEY be mixed??? The RSS has no problem in that.... Frankly, I don't see any problem in Convent schools teaching Christianity... If you don't want that, then don't go to convent schools... simple....

tronic,
this is really funny ...now iam being viewed as RSS supporter :rolleyes: ....
try answer this :::
what is the ideological difference between the so called RSS and convent ...
convent :::: where christian proseltying activities is justified on the veil of imparting education and a decalaration is also made in their objective colunm that clealry states that they are evangelist...the proseltying process is a planned ,slow,subtle long term goal

RSS ::: where they openly proclaim that they are hindu hardcore fanatics and they will defend hindus from getting converted or persuaded to other relgions by any means....they are mad and rapid in their outburst ....

similarity ::: both are by all means united in one agenda ::: fervent,rabid relgious attitude ...both are evangelist institutions in their own agenda's ....

Difference :::: RSS stabs u in the chest directly ,convent is more subtle and slowly poisons and stabs from behind ......

so what separates RSS and convent ideologies ????? ...both are by all means relgious instituitons ...

Superior education at convent::: true ,the britsh destroyed our gurukul
set up and brought in convent education that imparts westernised education ...naturally they have the edge in quality of education ....

RSS edge lies in its quantity ...

Convent brings shame to education and RSS brings shame to hinduism ....so i have no respect for either of them ....

so as far the convents consider that they can carry abt their evangelist process thro education and RSS on other hand has ample reasons to blame and stage attacks on evangelist ,this war will not stop .....

Tronic
12 Sep 06,, 17:54
convent :::: where christian proseltying activities is justified on the veil of imparting education and a decalaration is also made in their objective colunm that clealry states that they are evangelist...the proseltying process is a planned ,slow,subtle long term goal

RSS ::: where they openly proclaim that they are hindu hardcore fanatics and they will defend hindus from getting converted or persuaded to other relgions by any means....they are mad and rapid in their outburst ....
they will defend Hindus from converting??? or enforce oppression on the people to make sure they don't convert... something similar what the Taliban practised.... Convent schools don't frikkin convert you... they give you the best of Chritianity I believe... You see a child coming out of a Christian school and compare him/her with one coming out of a Hindu, Sikh or Muslim religious school and see the difference... the Christian school pupil will be much more moderate and much more tolerant to other people's beliefs... how many Hindus do you see enrolling into Madrassas or vice-versa??? but why do people of all religions flock to Convent schools??? there must be something, no??? RSS is a political party which enforces their style and beliefs upon the people... the convent schools, give the kids the best of their religion and does not force them to convert or change... it makes them much more tolerant.... big difference there... I have never seen a child go to a convent school and become intollerable to other religions... infact, when a Child goes to a convent school... the child becomes MUCH more moderate then if he/she is to go to some other religous school where the child grows a biased and intolerable and also views other relgions as different.....


similarity ::: both are by all means united in one agenda ::: fervent,rabid relgious attitude ...both are evangelist institutions in their own agenda's ....
no, they are not... RSS is develish... Convent schools are angelic... lol... seriously.... how many non-Hindus do you see flock to RSS camps??? not many... and now how many non-Christians do you see flock to Convent schools??? A LOT!!!


Difference :::: RSS stabs u in the chest directly ,convent is more subtle and slowly poisons and stabs from behind ......

so what separates RSS and convent ideologies ????? ...both are by all means relgious instituitons ...

RSS teach the extremes about their religion and teach, we are we... they are they.... where else Convent schools teach a child to be much more moderate and view the world in a much more enlightened way...


Superior education at convent::: true ,the britsh destroyed our gurukul
set up and brought in convent education that imparts westernised education ...naturally they have the edge in quality of education ....
The British have long since left.... Even regular Convent schools(not boarding) outmatch any other....



Convent brings shame to education and RSS brings shame to hinduism ....so i have no respect for either of them ....
BS..... Convent Schools and RSS are two totally different things... you are taking the convent schools as evil and all... If every child in India studied in a Convent school, today India would still consist of 80% Hindus but we would have a very low number of extremists and the RSS probably wouldn't exist...



so as far the convents consider that they can carry abt their evangelist process thro education and RSS on other hand has ample reasons to blame and stage attacks on evangelist ,this war will not stop .....
listen.... non-Christians will continue to flock to Convent schools and the war is between the Moderates and the Extremists..... choose your side.....

raj
12 Sep 06,, 18:24
they will defend Hindus from converting??? or enforce oppression on the people to make sure they don't convert... something similar what the Taliban practised.... Convent schools don't frikkin convert you... they give you the best of Chritianity I believe... You see a child coming out of a Christian school and compare him/her with one coming out of a Hindu, Sikh or Muslim religious school and see the difference... the Christian school pupil will be much more moderate and much more tolerant to other people's beliefs... how many Hindus do you see enrolling into Madrassas or vice-versa??? but why do people of all religions flock to Convent schools??? there must be something, no??? RSS is a political party which enforces their style and beliefs upon the people... the convent schools, give the kids the best of their religion and does not force them to convert or change... it makes them much more tolerant.... big difference there... I have never seen a child go to a convent school and become intollerable to other religions... infact, when a Child goes to a convent school... the child becomes MUCH more moderate then if he/she is to go to some other religous school where the child grows a biased and intolerable and also views other relgions as different.....
and why is it that the christian teachers that teach in convent schools preach that other religions are pagan and the only way to reach god is through jesus.(BTW even i am a product of a catholic school)



no, they are not... RSS is develish... Convent schools are angelic... lol... seriously.... how many non-Hindus do you see flock to RSS camps??? not many... and now how many non-Christians do you see flock to Convent schools??? A LOT!!!

FYI, AP has a lots of RSS schools called saraswathi vidya mandirs, they on an average score more ranks in state wide exams more than any convent school.


RSS teach the extremes about their religion and teach, we are we... they are they.... where else Convent schools teach a child to be much more moderate and view the world in a much more enlightened way...

then they dont beleive what they teach, on one hand they teach that one have to be moderate on the other hand they teach that other religions practices are pagan practices. :confused:



The British have long since left.... Even regular Convent schools(not boarding) outmatch any other....
BS..... Convent Schools and RSS are two totally different things... you are taking the convent schools as evil and all... If every child in India studied in a Convent school, today India would still consist of 80% Hindus but we would have a very low number of extremists and the RSS probably wouldn't exist...

muslim rulers and british ba$tards could not change the percentage, what can the convent schools do



listen.... non-Christians will continue to flock to Convent schools and the war is between the Moderates and the Extremists..... choose your side.....

Tronic
12 Sep 06,, 18:34
and why is it that the christian teachers that teach in convent schools preach that other religions are pagan and the only way to reach god is through jesus.(BTW even i am a product of a catholic school)
I don't know if they teach that or not... I have several cousins who are currently studying in convent schools(and even I studied in a convent before going to boarding school; which btw also is like a semi-convent school) and I don't know if they teach that or not... they didn't teach me that.... and going to convent school is not changing my cousins from believing any less in Sikhism... infact, studying in a convent school has been a benefit to them because now there is one more religion they have learned to respect.... and some stuff in Christianity is quite excellent; like Adam-Eve and other kool stories... getting a good dose of these stories in childhood puts this very neccessary belief in children that all people are pretty much the same... it is a very neccessary aspect which I believe that no other religion puts a great deal of emphasis on.... and it is such beliefs which work in creating a moderate mind young in childhood....


FYI, AP has a lots of RSS schools called saraswathi vidya mandirs, they on an average score more ranks in state wide exams more than any convent school.
ok, but people still flock to convent...


then they dont beleive what they teach, on one hand they teach that one have to be moderate on the other hand they teach that other religions practices are pagan practices. :confused:
could it be possible that not all convent schools teach that???


muslim rulers and british ba$tards could not change the percentage, what can the convent schools do
India is a secular moderate country... and if you want to be a secular moderate person, then stop trying to shun other religions... one thing is; try to get the good stuff out of all religions.....

Archer
12 Sep 06,, 20:25
No need to get personal.

Just pointing out the facts. Hardly personal.


Thread is not about Pakistan, although I understand that Pakistan remains to be the centre of the universe. ;)

We can have multiple threads about Pakistan. But then some of us have better things to do than get our jollies dreaming about "Indian prostitutes" or "secularism". Looks like you are taking up Aquils job.

Archer
12 Sep 06,, 20:38
they will defend Hindus from converting??? or enforce oppression on the people to make sure they don't convert... something similar what the Taliban practised.... Convent schools don't frikkin convert you... they give you the best of Chritianity I believe... You see a child coming out of a Christian school and compare him/her with one coming out of a Hindu, Sikh or Muslim religious school and see the difference... the Christian school pupil will be much more moderate and much more tolerant to other people's beliefs... how many Hindus do you see enrolling into Madrassas or vice-versa??? but why do people of all religions flock to Convent schools??? there must be something, no??? RSS is a political party which enforces their style and beliefs upon the people... the convent schools, give the kids the best of their religion and does not force them to convert or change... it makes them much more tolerant.... big difference there... I have never seen a child go to a convent school and become intollerable to other religions... infact, when a Child goes to a convent school... the child becomes MUCH more moderate then if he/she is to go to some other religous school where the child grows a biased and intolerable and also views other relgions as different.....

There are convent schools which are fairly fanatical as well. I had to remove my nephew from one and have him readmitted.



no, they are not... RSS is develish... Convent schools are angelic... lol... seriously.... how many non-Hindus do you see flock to RSS camps??? not many... and now how many non-Christians do you see flock to Convent schools??? A LOT!!!

Tronic, behave your age please and dont come up with such silly comments as the first one. You are just being fanatical here, and extremist positions dont an arguement make.


RSS teach the extremes about their religion and teach, we are we... they are they.... where else Convent schools teach a child to be much more moderate and view the world in a much more enlightened way...

There are all kinds of convent schools. The older ones, ie those run by the old traditional Indian Christian orgs, are respectable and dont force religion down the other students throats. However, I know of quite a few evangelical ones which have come up over the years and are abusing the convent school "brand" and are barely disguised religious schools which try to browbeat students into accepting christianity.



The British have long since left.... Even regular Convent schools(not boarding) outmatch any other....

Not really. There are many schools which "match" convent schools. But part of the issue is the perception that convent schools teach good english, and of course thanks to the presence of dedicated teachers (sisters/father)- discipline is usually better than the run of the mill schools. Having said that, I know of many schools which are as good as/ better than "convent schools" and institutions like the KVs are fairly good as well. The public schools are good, but obscenely priced, and like the convent schools, you have people abusing the brand name.





BS..... Convent Schools and RSS are two totally different things... you are taking the convent schools as evil and all... If every child in India studied in a Convent school, today India would still consist of 80% Hindus but we would have a very low number of extremists and the RSS probably wouldn't exist...

You are being unecessarily confrontative and fairly juvenile here. These kind of extreme comments are the ones that cause people to flame you and then you accuse them of being fundamentalists/ radicals.

There are convent schools which do good. There are convent schools which have problems. Whilst typecasting the entire group as "bad" is silly, its also true that there are many schools which have in the past abused the parents trust in them by using their position of authority to push religion. In MP for instance, I know of several instances where dime a dozen evangelical run convent schools popped up, overt attempts to proselytize children took place and there was a signficant public backlash.


listen.... non-Christians will continue to flock to Convent schools and the war is between the Moderates and the Extremists..... choose your side.....

Your comments too portray you to be as much a self righteous extremist if not worse. If you are not a fanatic, then you would be in the center, listening to either side, not being partisan.

Archer
12 Sep 06,, 20:47
I don't like what happened in Lucknow. My sister has studied in Loretto Convent, so I know about the school. At the same time I do not condone the seanse held during the school assembly. What irks is the method used by the BJP.

The Sangh Parivar is creating an atmosphere that we can do without. By tolerating such political groups the judiciary and the govt are making a mockery of this nation and its constitution.

I agree about the gist of your post sir. But what I must point out is that many of the externally supported evangelical groups have abused the trust held in them by the public and the Govt (thanks to sloth and sometimes political compulsions) does not act. Hence, the only ones left to act- apart from ineffectual parents protests- are the Sangh Parivar. Dragged into the process are often, India's older Christian denominations which dont use such tactics, but are caught in between.

I dont hold a brief for the RSS etc, and I wish that they were not in anyway involved, but since the law & order machinery does not act, they are the only ones who remain & create a ruckus, and usually get public support exactly because of that. In general, a blind eye is turned towards vigilante behaviour because of the same.

Second, there are convents and schools which are doing an excellent job and they are also being dragged into this controversy without reason.

Tronic
12 Sep 06,, 21:16
There are convent schools which are fairly fanatical as well. I had to remove my nephew from one and have him readmitted.
ok.


Tronic, behave your age please and dont come up with such silly comments as the first one. You are just being fanatical here, and extremist positions dont an arguement make.
yeah, ok. My bad... I was probably being a little fanatical there... but seriously, when I hear about such news, it makes my blood boil... these goons go around in a rampage and then I hear people justifying their actions....



There are all kinds of convent schools. The older ones, ie those run by the old traditional Indian Christian orgs, are respectable and dont force religion down the other students throats. However, I know of quite a few evangelical ones which have come up over the years and are abusing the convent school "brand" and are barely disguised religious schools which try to browbeat students into accepting christianity.
ok, I haven't seen a very forcefull convent school yet and so natuarally I have a positive picture of convent schools... this is the first time i'm even hearing about forceful convent schools from you.... not that I don't believe you, but it is really the first time I'm hearing about such schools... and my solution to that is, if you feel that such a school is forcing the religion on your kids then just put them in a new school!!!



Not really. There are many schools which "match" convent schools. But part of the issue is the perception that convent schools teach good english, and of course thanks to the presence of dedicated teachers (sisters/father)- discipline is usually better than the run of the mill schools. Having said that, I know of many schools which are as good as/ better than "convent schools" and institutions like the KVs are fairly good as well. The public schools are good, but obscenely priced, and like the convent schools, you have people abusing the brand name.
i'm not saying every convent school is superior then a non-convent... I'm sure there are schools out there which are even better... my point is that if you take the average of all the convent schools and non-convent, you will see that convent schools are doing better....



You are being unecessarily confrontative and fairly juvenile here. These kind of extreme comments are the ones that cause people to flame you and then you accuse them of being fundamentalists/ radicals.

I get all confronty and flamy when people make sympathetic comments like this for the goons:


why should RSS youth wing attack a convent ?????
is it for politcal reaons? or publicity ?? .......
NO,there has to be some solid reasons why a school was attacked by RSS youth wing ....we should see both sides of coin before commenting .....

when education becomes a medium for proselytzing activites naturally tension will flare up..... education and religion should always be kept apart ...




There are convent schools which do good. There are convent schools which have problems. Whilst typecasting the entire group as "bad" is silly, its also true that there are many schools which have in the past abused the parents trust in them by using their position of authority to push religion. In MP for instance, I know of several instances where dime a dozen evangelical run convent schools popped up, overt attempts to proselytize children took place and there was a signficant public backlash.
again... out of the convents that I know or have seen, there haven't been ANY forceful convent schools.... so i'm taking your word for it but it still does not justify attacking the school with goons... put your children in a different school then!!!!!!!!!!!


Your comments too portray you to be as much a self righteous extremist if not worse. If you are not a fanatic, then you would be in the center, listening to either side, not being partisan.
listening to either side???? The RSS stormed the school and vandilized it... and now you want me to sit here and listen to the reasons why they did that??? ermm... I don't think so... When they start acting like civilized people, then I will also listen to the reasons of both sides... but they are acting like animals...... and besides you are asking for Christian schools not to preach Christianity..... if you don't want your kids to learn Christianity, don't send them to Christian schools!!! :mad:

Archer
12 Sep 06,, 22:12
yeah, ok. My bad... I was probably being a little fanatical there... but seriously, when I hear about such news, it makes my blood boil... these goons go around in a rampage and then I hear people justifying their actions....

I understand, but what is also true is that the "rampage" also occurs sometimes because of stupidity on either side. Altho' its very true that they do sometimes act out of irrationality and do stupid things (valentines day protests etc). Personally, I wouldnt want ANY vigilante action and if the Youth workers rampage they should be held accountable. But at the same time, the school authorities should also be held accountable. However, what will happen is that both will escape. This is because law & order does not know how to deal with a) & b)s reaction to a) also escapes.


ok, I haven't seen a very forcefull convent school yet and so natuarally I have a positive picture of convent schools... this is the first time i'm even hearing about forceful convent schools from you.... not that I don't believe you, but it is really the first time I'm hearing about such schools... and my solution to that is, if you feel that such a school is forcing the religion on your kids then just put them in a new school!!!

Ok, see this is the problem here. Yes, there are many convent schools which operate rather openly. However, the problem is that most Indian parents ARE non Christian. And the lack of quality public education in many places forces them to rely on convent education- and they expect that their childrens native religion and beliefs will be respected, but when it isnt, there is outrage. There is no problem with saying the Lords prayer, however, there should be a line between ethics and proselytisation, and some amount of self policing. Regrettably, some convent schools dont realise this and abuse their position of power, which will create a backlash.


i'm not saying every convent school is superior then a non-convent... I'm sure there are schools out there which are even better... my point is that if you take the average of all the convent schools and non-convent, you will see that convent schools are doing better....

Yes, but again- convent schools have been around longer, and secondly, there are many non convent schools which are also good and equally well run or even better. Its the "brand name". In India, if you are convent educated, you are automatically a good English speaker etc.



I get all confronty and flamy when people make sympathetic comments like this for the goons:

Tronic, there is no sympathy for the goons, but what the school did was also unethical. If the problem has to be solved, look at it dispassionately. If problems are addressed by the state, there will be no support for vigilante action.


again... out of the convents that I know or have seen, there haven't been ANY forceful convent schools.... so i'm taking your word for it but it still does not justify attacking the school with goons... put your children in a different school then!!!!!!!!!!!

There are convents and then there are convents. In a famous school in Bangalore, the principle is a bigamist, has been arrested for fraud, has been repeatedly caught indulging in hanky panky (related to pt 1, otherwise his bigamy would be a personal issue) at the expense of students- YET parents send kids to the school - why? Name of the institution, desire for their kids to continue in the same place, lack of alternatives..its a mixed bag. One convent school I know of, run by a Muslim lady, mostly lower-class (economically) Muslim students, only "convent" bit the presence of a spinster Christian teacher, and an old English lady who was the principal. Yet, secular, and equal respect for all religions, at least from the schools side. So, it depends on the institution and the people running it. However, I think its high time a common code of conduct was drawn up for all schools and a contract signed between parents and children at the time of signing, about what to expect or not to.


listening to either side???? The RSS stormed the school and vandilized it... and now you want me to sit here and listen to the reasons why they did that??? ermm... I don't think so... When they start acting like civilized people, then I will also listen to the reasons of both sides... but they are acting like animals...... and besides you are asking for Christian schools not to preach Christianity..... if you don't want your kids to learn Christianity, don't send them to Christian schools!!! :mad:

Its not as simple as that. There is a severe shortage of quality public education in India and this is the reason why many people send their children to convent schools hoping that their children will get a quality education which they pay for. However, their trust IS abused when education becomes a medium for religious conversion or they perceive it as such. Secondly, hence while what the youth workers did was vigilante behaviour, what the school also did was unethical. They were not shrinking violets to be painted as angels whilst those who opposed them are devilish. Last, there is a huge issue of conversions vs re-conversions and so on and so forth, in MP, Rajasthan and the cowbelt states- which has hardened public atttitudes. This problem does not exist in Punjab afaik, but is there almost everywhere else including AP. This has led to a lot of support for the Sangh parivar since they are "perceived" as the only ones being against this process. Its a huge mess, frankly.

texasjohn
12 Sep 06,, 23:12
I don't like what happened in Lucknow. My sister has studied in Loretto Convent, so I know about the school. At the same time I do not condone the seanse held during the school assembly. What irks is the method used by the BJP.

The Sangh Parivar is creating an atmosphere that we can do without. By tolerating such political groups the judiciary and the govt are making a mockery of this nation and its constitution.

Wow! small world. I went to La Martinere ( Calcutta) in my " tiny tots" years and the twin school is very near Loretto!

raj
12 Sep 06,, 23:51
ours is the only country where the majority's religious places are governed by the GOVT servants and minority are given free hand(hindu temples come under state endowments departments and churches and mosques are governed by their self governing bodies). Temples are secularised(TTD tirumala Tirupathi devasthanam has this board which preaches the concept of dharma which initially was called Hindu dharma prachara parishad, now they have removed the word hindu from it, why?????. The govt is trying to secularize hindu instutions.) They have installed a christian as Vice Chancellor of Tirumala Temple run university(secularism only for hindus). Now in AP they want to distribute temple lands to the people who have been misplaced by the outer ring road in Hyderabad, why does it only come down to hindus not to any other religions?????

Tronic
13 Sep 06,, 00:24
I understand, but what is also true is that the "rampage" also occurs sometimes because of stupidity on either side. Altho' its very true that they do sometimes act out of irrationality and do stupid things (valentines day protests etc). Personally, I wouldnt want ANY vigilante action and if the Youth workers rampage they should be held accountable. But at the same time, the school authorities should also be held accountable. However, what will happen is that both will escape. This is because law & order does not know how to deal with a) & b)s reaction to a) also escapes.
oh damn... thanks a lot for reminding me about the valentines day stuff... :mad: those goons went around and smashed up card-shops and such.... if these guys have a problem, they should come out and talk... There is no need for the government to bend down to these goons... btw, This is one reason why I love Punjab, its pretty much live and let live here.......



Ok, see this is the problem here. Yes, there are many convent schools which operate rather openly. However, the problem is that most Indian parents ARE non Christian. And the lack of quality public education in many places forces them to rely on convent education- and they expect that their childrens native religion and beliefs will be respected, but when it isnt, there is outrage. There is no problem with saying the Lords prayer, however, there should be a line between ethics and proselytisation, and some amount of self policing. Regrettably, some convent schools dont realise this and abuse their position of power, which will create a backlash.



Yes, but again- convent schools have been around longer, and secondly, there are many non convent schools which are also good and equally well run or even better. Its the "brand name". In India, if you are convent educated, you are automatically a good English speaker etc.




Tronic, there is no sympathy for the goons, but what the school did was also unethical. If the problem has to be solved, look at it dispassionately. If problems are addressed by the state, there will be no support for vigilante action.



There are convents and then there are convents. In a famous school in Bangalore, the principle is a bigamist, has been arrested for fraud, has been repeatedly caught indulging in hanky panky (related to pt 1, otherwise his bigamy would be a personal issue) at the expense of students- YET parents send kids to the school - why? Name of the institution, desire for their kids to continue in the same place, lack of alternatives..its a mixed bag. One convent school I know of, run by a Muslim lady, mostly lower-class (economically) Muslim students, only "convent" bit the presence of a spinster Christian teacher, and an old English lady who was the principal. Yet, secular, and equal respect for all religions, at least from the schools side. So, it depends on the institution and the people running it. However, I think its high time a common code of conduct was drawn up for all schools and a contract signed between parents and children at the time of signing, about what to expect or not to.



Its not as simple as that. There is a severe shortage of quality public education in India and this is the reason why many people send their children to convent schools hoping that their children will get a quality education which they pay for. However, their trust IS abused when education becomes a medium for religious conversion or they perceive it as such. Secondly, hence while what the youth workers did was vigilante behaviour, what the school also did was unethical. They were not shrinking violets to be painted as angels whilst those who opposed them are devilish. Last, there is a huge issue of conversions vs re-conversions and so on and so forth, in MP, Rajasthan and the cowbelt states- which has hardened public atttitudes. This problem does not exist in Punjab afaik, but is there almost everywhere else including AP. This has led to a lot of support for the Sangh parivar since they are "perceived" as the only ones being against this process. Its a huge mess, frankly.

I just have one thing to say... do you think it is fair that Christians be demanded that they not preach Christianity in Christian schools???

lemontree
13 Sep 06,, 05:15
and why is it that the christian teachers that teach in convent schools preach that other religions are pagan and the only way to reach god is through jesus.(BTW even i am a product of a catholic school)
Raj you know that your statement is not true, a convent school is one that is run by the roman catholic priests/ nuns or by jesuits. Schools run by purely evangilical groups are not convents.
None of my christian teachers ever spoke of religion except a nun in Mizoram, but then 95% of the class was christian. Never have non-christians been called pagans in the derogatory sense, by my teachers.
BTW, the teacher who taught me the most about Indian religions was a christian teacher.

FYI, AP has a lots of RSS schools called saraswathi vidya mandirs, they on an average score more ranks in state wide exams more than any convent school.
No one is talking of school toppers, we speak of wholesome education.

lemontree
13 Sep 06,, 05:20
India's older Christian denominations which dont use such tactics, but are caught in between.
Loreto Convent, Lucknow is one such school, that is a class apart. However, the seanse incident is what surprised and irritated me too. It was very unlike Loreto's management behaviour.

lemontree
13 Sep 06,, 05:33
Wow! small world. I went to La Martinere ( Calcutta) in my " tiny tots" years and the twin school is very near Loretto!
and La Martineer Girls was very near St. Francis in Lucknow.

Ray
13 Sep 06,, 05:41
I am from La Martiniere Calcutta and today is my Founders Day for which I am going and so is Lt Gen John Mukherjee.

What has happened in Loreto is not what I have seen ever being done in my times.

I personally feel it is blasphemous to have these circuses in the name of Jesus and Christianity.

Black magic, witchcraft and such stupidity is not a Christian way of doing things.

In fact it is heresy!

I am of the opinion that Father Sebastine and the Principal should be excommunicated.

Ray
13 Sep 06,, 05:50
I would also add that this stuff at Loreto is an aberration and it is very surprising. My wife is fron this school and we are both quite taken aback.

veera8
13 Sep 06,, 07:25
TRONIC,


BS..... Convent Schools and RSS are two totally different things... you are taking the convent schools as evil and all... If every child in India studied in a Convent school, today India would still consist of 80% Hindus but we would have a very low number of extremists and the RSS probably wouldn't exist...

i still stand in my point ::: dissemination of knowledge should come without any ulterior motives ...but is that happening in convent ???No,they play the cards of education as a advantage and behind the scene they always look for the vulnerable students as potential targets to get converted to christianity ....so i say """ those "convents" bring shame to education""

here is an open challenge ,let all the convent schools publish their evangelist decalration in big bold statements in their advertaisment and name boards so that even a semi illetrate parent will clearly understand that proseltyzing will be inherant along with the education ,let us see how many students will flock to get that kind of " superior education "
iam damn sure no convent will do that b'cose they knew such a statement will enlighten those gullible parents so that they will understand the dirty motives of those institution and will not sent their kids to those convents

lemontree
13 Sep 06,, 08:56
i still stand in my point ::: dissemination of knowledge should come without any ulterior motives ...but is that happening in convent ???No,they play the cards of education as a advantage and behind the scene they always look for the vulnerable students as potential targets to get converted to christianity ....so i say """ those "convents" bring shame to education""
Do you have any data to highlight the number of "vulnerable" children who have been converted?
Has the number of christians increased w.r.t the county's population? No

The problem of conversions is rarely heard of in cities even though more conversions take place there. But the main problem with missionaries is that they educate and enlighten the people about their rights, along with spreading the gospel. And when these rural people and adivasies refuse exploitation by the higher castes, there is a sudden threat felt by the land lords.

here is an open challenge ,let all the convent schools publish their evangelist decalration in big bold statements in their advertaisment and name boards so that even a semi illetrate parent will clearly understand that proseltyzing will be inherant along with the education ,let us see how many students will flock to get that kind of " superior education "
iam damn sure no convent will do that b'cose they knew such a statement will enlighten those gullible parents so that they will understand the dirty motives of those institution and will not sent their kids to those convents
I posted the manifest of Loreto Convent in this thread. Did you bother to read it? It clearly mentioned providing education based on christian principles. If an educated person like you can make a statement based on halfbaked information, imagine how idiotic the dingbats in BYJM are!:rolleyes:

Archer
13 Sep 06,, 09:16
oh damn... thanks a lot for reminding me about the valentines day stuff... :mad: those goons went around and smashed up card-shops and such.... if these guys have a problem, they should come out and talk... There is no need for the government to bend down to these goons...

I agree, but then think why is it that people who -like you- dislike all such things & stupidity by , still dont get as outraged at activities like the school one? There is a problem, which has to be solved & this perception gap will not go away just if we wish it disappears. Its surprising to see how much support RSS etc & the Sangh group has compared to earlier. And part of that support stems exactly from their stance on such "hot button" topics. If these issues were addressed effectively by admin/ local authorities, the Sangh wouldnt have any locus standi to intervene, and their political support would shrink. In the 70's for example, I remember somebody telling me how their uncle was a shakha pramukh but come election time, everyone would vote Congress and not Jan Sangh.

I remember with what respect "sisters and fathers" used to be treated with earlier (and still are for the most part), thanks to their identification with selfless public service/ education (go to any hospital and the "sister" is usually a malayalee christian), but now thanks to externally funded proselytisation & dime a dozen conversion shops, reports, controversy over the same, people have become far more cynical. Its a bloody shame. I know for a fact that several local Indian christian orgs are against such attempts to convert, but they cannot reign in the newer orgs or the more enthu evangelical ones, and thats creating communal conflict.
This has occurred from quite some time, leading even Gandhiji to comment upon it & identifying the problems. But lets not digress.

Govt doesnt bend down to anyone. It just does nothing. It did nothing when mass conversions in MP/ Bihar tribal areas took place, sometimes quite unethically. It did nothing when communal problems arose (apart from usual lathi charge). It did/ does nothing when the pendulum is swinging the otherway. Eitherways people and inter community relations suffer.



btw, This is one reason why I love Punjab, its pretty much live and let live here.......

Punjabs case is pretty unique in India. Its primarily Hindu and Sikh and neither side proselytises to the other. If both sides start behaving otherwise, you'll have the same problems. And there have been quite some issues in the past, but lets leave that for now.


I just have one thing to say... do you think it is fair that Christians be demanded that they not preach Christianity in Christian schools???

By all means they should be allowed to preach Christianity, but religious activities should be for the Christian kids, and what other kids get should be upto their parents to determine. Like LT said, a good school would probably have moral science or something secular for its other kids (who'd probably enjoy the free time, lol).

Having said, that there should be common, interfaith functions and prayers and services, and the like. These are laudable and serve to open the mind!

However, attempts to privately proselytise amongst children should not be acceptable. Schools are meant for education, not for proselytisation. Keep impressionable children away from such attempts & you will avoid the backlash from adults.

And have the parents involved from the beginning, and tell them exactly what to expect throughout so that misunderstandings dont occur.


Lemontree,


Loreto Convent, Lucknow is one such school, that is a class apart. However, the seanse incident is what surprised and irritated me too. It was very unlike Loreto's management behaviour.

Sir,
Some chap with such ideas would have come into power, formed his own clique and had this stunt pulled, in the process harming the institution. The usual story of one bad apple causing many problems I guess.

veera8
13 Sep 06,, 10:18
Do you have any data to highlight the number of "vulnerable" children who have been converted?
Has the number of christians increased w.r.t the county's population? N
dont twist the argument ,all i said is there is always a constant ulterior motive to convert the students .....can u deny it ???? ....


the main problem with missionaries is that they educate and enlighten the people about their rights, along with spreading the gospel

exactly ,that makes them a potential target for RSS..if Missionaries have a arrogant feeling that they can " preach and enlighten ":rolleyes: and ultimately "convert";) people,RSS too has the same kind of fanaticsm to prevent and protect the relgion it represents ....every body takes relgion serioulsy ,not just only christians


when these rural people and adivasies refuse exploitation by the higher castes, there is a sudden threat felt by the land lords
above are the lines which is the first step in the proseltyzing activites carried by missionsries ...exploitation and prevention --> get converted :tongue:


posted the manifest of Loreto Convent in this thread. Did you bother to read it? It clearly mentioned providing education based on christian principles. If an educated person like you can make a statement based on halfbaked information, imagine how idiotic the dingbats in BYJM are!

here is the statament of Loreto convent
Mission Statement:


We wish to create a positive environment, based on Christian values, where our students have opportunities and encouragement to develop their full potential and gifts, - academic, social, creative and spiritual within a global perspective.
As a catholic school in the Loreto tradition, we aim to create a warm and caring community. In an atmosphere of respect and fairness, through support and friendship, we affirm each person's self-worth and dignity.

read those words in red and those contradictory words in blue ....did they stand by their statement of "fairness and respect,dignity" ???? ...

and,
may i know how many illiterate parents have such a knowledge to understand those implied meaning of mission statements when they join their kids in such convents ????
as i said the innocence and guiilblity is subtly exploited and a justification is provided in mission statement when ever things gets disclosed ......
why can't those convents put in their name boards in simple,plain english or local language that their school is a an " evangelist catholic missionary school " like the madrassh of islamic institutions mark it explitctily to make their mission clear ????....will they do it ??no ,they wont ....


so i sum up --as long as evangelist thinks that they can cajole ,preach,enlighten ,proseltize people to ultimately get converted ,so are the RSS goons who also thinks that it is their duty to stop all such proseltying activities .....
what the loreto convent did was wrong by all means ,the reaction gave those RSS goons the much needed reason to target a education institution ....let the evangelist stop making education institutions as their preaching grounds and then blame RSS if they take the law in their hands .....

lemontree
13 Sep 06,, 12:00
dont twist the argument ,all i said is there is always a constant ulterior motive to convert the students .....can u deny it ???? ....
Twist an argument?....you say you studied in a convent school and so have many of us here. How many of your schoolmates got converted in the time you spent in a convent school? None at all. I am just pointing out the hollowness of this "belief" that there is some evil game plan to convert children in schools.
The nuns and priests will preach, that is their vocation, take it or leave it, the choice is yours. But no one has the right to kill/ maim them for preaching. The ISKON and other Hindu organisations are carrying out the same activities as the missionaries here.
All I say is do unto others what you want done to you.

exactly ,that makes them a potential target for RSS..if Missionaries have a arrogant feeling that they can " preach and enlighten ":rolleyes: and ultimately "convert";) people,RSS too has the same kind of fanaticsm to prevent and protect the relgion it represents ....every body takes relgion serioulsy ,not just only christians
So the RSS is happy and feel that hindu religion is saved as long as the adivasies are exploited and kept miserable. But if the missionary priest tells him not to work without wages or teaches that adivasi how to read and write his name then how does it become dangerous for the hindu faith?

above are the lines which is the first step in the proseltyzing activites carried by missionsries ...exploitation and prevention --> get converted :tongue:
You say exploitation, I say education about human rights.



here is the statament of Loreto convent
Mission Statement:

read those words in red and those contradictory words in blue ....did they stand by their statement of "fairness and respect,dignity" ???? ...
Then please explain how is is contradictory. What is it about christian teaching that you find "unfair, unrespectful and undignified."?

and,
may i know how many illiterate parents have such a knowledge to understand those implied meaning of mission statements when they join their kids in such convents ????
Is it required, it is they who come to the school and not the other way around.

as i said the innocence and guiilblity is subtly exploited and a justification is provided in mission statement when ever things gets disclosed ......
Really???...you sound as if you have been greatly wronged.

why can't those convents put in their name boards in simple,plain english or local language that their school is a an " evangelist catholic missionary school " like the madrassh of islamic institutions mark it explitctily to make their mission clear ????....will they do it ??no ,they wont ....
Don't even start comparing a madarsa with a convent school. The alumni of the former are synonumous with terrorism while the later produce people that India is proud off.

so i sum up --as long as evangelist thinks that they can cajole ,preach,enlighten ,proseltize people to ultimately get converted ,so are the RSS goons who also thinks that it is their duty to stop all such proseltying activities .....
Did christianity end after the romans executed and persecuted all christians?

what the loreto convent did was wrong by all means ,the reaction gave those RSS goons the much needed reason to target a education institution ....let the evangelist stop making education institutions as their preaching grounds and then blame RSS if they take the law in their hands .....
The RSS does need any excuse they, if you remember the Stains case. The husband wife team were doctors who treated lepers and had ran a mission hospital. Did Dr. Stains and his 2 boys deserve to die?

veera8
13 Sep 06,, 13:57
Twist an argument?....you say you studied in a convent school and so have many of us here. How many of your schoolmates got converted in the time you spent in a convent school? None at all. I am just pointing out the hollowness of this "belief" that there is some evil game plan to convert children in schools.
The nuns and priests will preach, that is their vocation, take it or leave it, the choice is yours. But no one has the right to kill/ maim them for preaching. The ISKON and other Hindu organisations are carrying out the same activities as the missionaries here.
All I say is do unto others what you want done to you.

So the RSS is happy and feel that hindu religion is saved as long as the adivasies are exploited and kept miserable. But if the missionary priest tells him not to work without wages or teaches that adivasi how to read and write his name then how does it become dangerous for the hindu faith?

You say exploitation, I say education about human rights.



here is the statament of Loreto convent
Mission Statement:

Then please explain how is is contradictory. What is it about christian teaching that you find "unfair, unrespectful and undignified."?

Is it required, it is they who come to the school and not the other way around.

Really???...you sound as if you have been greatly wronged.

Don't even start comparing a madarsa with a convent school. The alumni of the former are synonumous with terrorism while the later produce people that India is proud off.

Did christianity end after the romans executed and persecuted all christians?

The RSS does need any excuse they, if you remember the Stains case. The husband wife team were doctors who treated lepers and had ran a mission hospital. Did Dr. Stains and his 2 boys deserve to die?



The nuns and priests will preach, that is their vocation, take it or leave it, the choice is yours. But no one has the right to kill/ maim them for preaching.

is it so , those evangelist nuns and fathers will throw slanderous remarks at hinduism calling it paganist,idolist,without central structure,followers railing in ignorance ..so and so ,but u expect hindus to be quiet and even have the audacity to say " take it or leave it " .....
why dont u carry out such things in a hardcore islamic country like PAK and jsut see how they react ....is it like the soft going attitude of hindus being exploited to its maximum ....rememebr there is always a limit and if exceeds its endurance u can very well see the reaction .....


The ISKON and other Hindu organisations are carrying out the same activities as the missionaries here.

i can easily point out to thousands of harcore christain missionary organisations ....hinduism is not a proseltyzing relgion like christanity ....


So the RSS is happy and feel that hindu religion is saved as long as the adivasies are exploited and kept miserable. But if the missionary priest tells him not to work without wages or teaches that adivasi how to read and write his name then how does it become dangerous for the hindu faith?
You say exploitation, I say education about human rights.

u talk as if hinduism oppress all the adivasis by denying human rights,education ,freedom of spirit e.t.c .....where did u first come up with this
amazing concepts that christanity is the champion of human rights and education ???????
this kind of attitude is what reeks up tension ....


Then please explain how is is contradictory. What is it about christian teaching that you find "unfair, unrespectful and undignified."?

the meaning of fairness :: to be even handed

u think it was fair to stage a occult show in a school ,where some one all the sudden cries that christ ahs entered his body and he has got magical healing powers ----frightining all the students ( 8 to 12 ) ...u call this spritual training ????
it is also funny to see christan missionaries whose used to mock at hindus for thier superstecious belives have themselves now ended up in such kind of occult shows


Don't even start comparing a madarsa with a convent school. The alumni of the former are synonumous with terrorism while the later produce people that India is proud off.

okay lemon tree, i make it very much Easy for u to understand ....let the loreto convent change its name board as

LORETO CONVENT SCHOOL
( EVANGELIST CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY SCHOOL)
M.G Marg Lucknow(U.P) India

that will visibly make the parents understand the intention of the school rather than meticulosly reading each and every word of the convents mission statements ......


Did christianity end after the romans executed and persecuted all christians?
did RSS existed throught the long history of hinduism ????? ....
all these militant RSS,bajrangdal were a product of extremism shown by other relgions which tried to exploit hinduism ..never was extremism or miltant hindutuva an integral part of hinduism ..


The RSS does need any excuse they, if you remember the Stains case. The husband wife team were doctors who treated lepers and had ran a mission hospital. Did Dr. Stains and his 2 boys deserve to die?
well ,how about looking at both sides of coin ....i striclty condemn violence,but try analysing what prompted some people to commit such a horrible crime ..here is doctor stains hsitory

http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/wadhwa/Graham.html
some excerpts from his life history ::

Staines joined the Evangelical Missionary Society of Mayurbhanj (EMSM) and started his work in 1965.
Besides his Involvement with Leprosy Home, Staines was also involved in missionary work. The missionary work of Staines has come to light from the various despatches sent by him to Australia, which is published in a newsletter 'Tidings'. Staines also used to take part in baptism ceremonies although he may not have necessarily carried out the baptism himself. Paul Murmu says that Staines attended baptism ceremonies and marriage ceremonies of Christian families whenever he was available. However, it is the despatches sent by Staines to Australia in the newsletter 'Tidings' that make it clear that Staines was also involved in active propagation of his religion apart from his social work.

kindness towards leprosy patents is appreciated ,but strings attached to such affection and caring with a motive to convert as much people as possible was what went wrong .....



Is it required, it is they who come to the school and not the other way around
yes lemon tree,
thats the cache, missionary schools can keep exploiting illietrate parents as long as u have the education system( be thankful to british) in christain hands ....time will cahnge very soon

do u wanna know why punjab is peaceful and prosperous ::
the reason being both hindus and sikhs doesnt ahve these kind of dirty intentions to proseltyzise their relgion ...."it is as simple as live and let live ".....
but here when a missionary institution tries to convert a people ( naturally belittling other relgions) tension builds up ......as simple like action - reaction concepts ....
so as long as evangelisnt , for that reason any one who thinks that they can exploit hinduism and convert people -be ready to also face the retaliation .....take it or leave it ....even we love our religion .....

raj
13 Sep 06,, 16:24
Raj you know that your statement is not true, a convent school is one that is run by the roman catholic priests/ nuns or by jesuits. Schools run by purely evangilical groups are not convents.
None of my christian teachers ever spoke of religion except a nun in Mizoram, but then 95% of the class was christian. Never have non-christians been called pagans in the derogatory sense, by my teachers.
BTW, the teacher who taught me the most about Indian religions was a christian teacher.

No one is talking of school toppers, we speak of wholesome education.

LT let me tell you some of the statements that were made by my english teacher during my 7th grade/class

Kali is devil and praying to kali is as good as praying devil or 999.

And there was one more senior teacher(administrator) during my 10th grade, this was the time during which the bible storoies were being shown on TV(sunday mornings 9:00Am on DD1 channel), she used to come by the class every monday and ask if we did see the serial on TV(our school was 99% non-christian)
i could just go and fill may be 3-4 pages of my christian tecahers ways of promoting christianity in school.(considering the fact that the christian teachers constituted only 40% of the teaching staff and majority were Hindus, the School was run by a Church)



P.S: I was not talking about School toppers, but toppers in state wide run exams, the Board exams.

raj
13 Sep 06,, 16:28
TRONIC,



i still stand in my point ::: dissemination of knowledge should come without any ulterior motives ...but is that happening in convent ???No,they play the cards of education as a advantage and behind the scene they always look for the vulnerable students as potential targets to get converted to christianity ....so i say """ those "convents" bring shame to education""

here is an open challenge ,let all the convent schools publish their evangelist decalration in big bold statements in their advertaisment and name boards so that even a semi illetrate parent will clearly understand that proseltyzing will be inherant along with the education ,let us see how many students will flock to get that kind of " superior education "
iam damn sure no convent will do that b'cose they knew such a statement will enlighten those gullible parents so that they will understand the dirty motives of those institution and will not sent their kids to those convents

they cant do that thing in open, as the INDIAN constitution prohibits recognizing any institution which openly says its sole aim is conversions of other religion practitioners to their religion, and with out recognision from govt a school cannot function as they need to be recognized in order for them to conduct the state/central board exams.

Ray
13 Sep 06,, 17:21
Why are there conversions?

Why do people change jobs?

The answer is very simple in both cases.

Because the other religion/ company is giving a better deal than what one is getting presently.

Christianity gives opportunity to better education (schools), better health (hospital) care etc etc and that too free or at very nominal rates.

In today's irreligious (except for Islam) world, who cares about religion? Yes, who cares? But everyone cares about their own fight for existence and in this fight, whoever helps one to surmount his daily worries wins!

Now, if any religion wants to prevent conversion, it better offer a better and more attractive package for the individuals!

QED.

Rural folks and tribal convert because they are getting a better deal. If someone feels it is incorrect, please don't hesitate in giving them a deal which is even better.

Therefore, the grouse is misplaced.

Lemontree,

I am afraid planchette and black magic is not "Christian principles". And Jesus entering into an idiot's body is one of the most unchristian like stuff I have ever heard and I have gone through the route of being a Christian, though not as a Catholic, so nothing is unknown to me in this realm. Indeed, today itself I attend a Service in my school chapel.

It is disservice to Christianity if one states planchettes and black magic is Christian like.

The second coming of Jesus is still to take place.

It is Christian who are working hard to stop these magic shows of people being seized by spirits and ghosts. Remember, how Satya Sai Baba "miracles" was exposed by the Christian from Sri Lanka.

Ganesh drinking milk and Jesus entering the body of a man are the same type of Blind Faith that fools the gullible!

Tronic
13 Sep 06,, 17:22
holy shux... where do I start???


I remember with what respect "sisters and fathers" used to be treated with earlier (and still are for the most part), thanks to their identification with selfless public service/ education (go to any hospital and the "sister" is usually a malayalee christian), but now thanks to externally funded proselytisation & dime a dozen conversion shops, reports, controversy over the same, people have become far more cynical. Its a bloody shame. I know for a fact that several local Indian christian orgs are against such attempts to convert, but they cannot reign in the newer orgs or the more enthu evangelical ones, and thats creating communal conflict.
This has occurred from quite some time, leading even Gandhiji to comment upon it & identifying the problems. But lets not digress.

Govt doesnt bend down to anyone. It just does nothing. It did nothing when mass conversions in MP/ Bihar tribal areas took place, sometimes quite unethically. It did nothing when communal problems arose (apart from usual lathi charge). It did/ does nothing when the pendulum is swinging the otherway. Eitherways people and inter community relations suffer.
listen... I have never heard anyone in India forced to convert... If you're saying that Convent schools spread enlightened ideas which make it desirable for the normal people to convert to Christianity, what the heck is wrong with that??? The people have a right to choose which religion they wish to belong to... and no one can take that right away from the, especially in India.... now, Having people forcefully convert you.... that I have never heard or seen Convent schools carrying out... if you think that enlightened ideas spread by the missionaries are a threat then so be it... that still doesn't give the RSS any right to determine an individuals religion...


By all means they should be allowed to preach Christianity, but religious activities should be for the Christian kids, and what other kids get should be upto their parents to determine. Like LT said, a good school would probably have moral science or something secular for its other kids (who'd probably enjoy the free time, lol).
well... Why shouldn't they preach Christianity to non-Christian kids??? Its their own schools based on Christian values funded by their own money; heck, if you don't want your children to be exposed to Christian values, then don't send them to Christian schools!!!



However, attempts to privately proselytise amongst children should not be acceptable. Schools are meant for education, not for proselytisation. Keep impressionable children away from such attempts & you will avoid the backlash from adults.
backlash from adults??? there was no backlash or protests from anybody... it was just a bloody storming of the school by goons.... If the parents were so concerned then they could've protested themselves... but anyways, it is still wrong to demand that schools of a certain religion stop preaching their own religion because now you have your kids enrolled into it.... thats just plain selfish...


exactly ,that makes them a potential target for RSS..if Missionaries have a arrogant feeling that they can " preach and enlighten " and ultimately "convert" people,RSS too has the same kind of fanaticsm to prevent and protect the relgion it represents ....every body takes relgion serioulsy ,not just only christians
wtf... so you're saying that Hindus don't have faith in their own religion so if a missionary says a few words, the Hindus convert??? and the RSS has to protect them??? holy crud... reminds me of another organization... Taliban!!!



read those words in red and those contradictory words in blue ....did they stand by their statement of "fairness and respect,dignity" ???? ...
wth??? are you trying to say that fairness and respect, dignity is not part of Christian values???


is it so , those evangelist nuns and fathers will throw slanderous remarks at hinduism calling it paganist,idolist,without central structure,followers railing in ignorance ..so and so ,but u expect hindus to be quiet and even have the audacity to say " take it or leave it " .....
holy sh!t... You have no frikkin proof of that... my entire life I have studied in convent schools and not a single person had a attitude like that...


why dont u carry out such things in a hardcore islamic country like PAK and jsut see how they react ....is it like the soft going attitude of hindus being exploited to its maximum ....rememebr there is always a limit and if exceeds its endurance u can very well see the reaction .....
errmm... Pakistan is an Islamic Republic... So does that mean in your eyes, India is a Hindu Republic??? because if so, then you have just justified the creation of a Sikh Republic, Budhist Republic and a Christian Republic...


u talk as if hinduism oppress all the adivasis by denying human rights,education ,freedom of spirit e.t.c .....where did u first come up with this
amazing concepts that christanity is the champion of human rights and education ???????
this kind of attitude is what reeks up tension ....
LT never said anything about Christianity being the champion of Human Rights...

I say this to you... do you ever hear Christian fanatic groups protesting against what is taught in Hindu religious schools??? more specifically, RSS Hindu schools??? no.... but then why is RSS protesting at what is taught in Christian schools??? which btw I think is a false cry; and its quite ironical that RSS is afraid that a religion which constitutes 2% of the entire country is a threat to a religion which constitutes 80% of the country...


LORETO CONVENT SCHOOL
( EVANGELIST CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY SCHOOL)
M.G Marg Lucknow(U.P) India

that will visibly make the parents understand the intention of the school rather than meticulosly reading each and every word of the convents mission statements ......

errrmmm... I think Convent School already gives out the identity of a school as a Christian school...



do u wanna know why punjab is peaceful and prosperous ::
the reason being both hindus and sikhs doesnt ahve these kind of dirty intentions to proseltyzise their relgion ...."it is as simple as live and let live ".....
but here when a missionary institution tries to convert a people ( naturally belittling other relgions) tension builds up ......as simple like action - reaction concepts ....
so as long as evangelisnt , for that reason any one who thinks that they can exploit hinduism and convert people -be ready to also face the retaliation .....take it or leave it ....even we love our religion .....
listen... I'm a Sikh and if one day I find the concept of Christianity much more interesting and want to convert; Khalistani Sikhs would be justified to attack Christian places???

Tronic
13 Sep 06,, 17:27
Why are there conversions?

Why do people change jobs?

The answer is very simple in both cases.

Because the other religion/ company is giving a better deal than what one is getting presently.

Christianity gives opportunity to better education (schools), better health (hospital) care etc etc and that too free or at very nominal rates.

In today's irreligious (except for Islam) world, who cares about religion? Yes, who cares? But everyone cares about their own fight for existence and in this fight, whoever helps one to surmount his daily worries wins!

Now, if any religion wants to prevent conversion, it better offer a better and more attractive package for the individuals!

QED.

Rural folks and tribal convert because they are getting a better deal. If someone feels it is incorrect, please don't hesitate in giving them a deal which is even better.

Therefore, the grouse is misplaced.

I will tell you this, there are plenty of people who take Sikhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Budhism, Islam and other religions very seriously... to them converting is not like just another career change... Religion is their connection with god... to us that might be so, but you cannot assume that it is true for every person....


Lemontree,

I am afraid planchette and black magic is not "Christian principles". And Jesus entering into an idiot's body is one of the most unchristian like stuff I have ever heard and I have gone through the route of being a Christian, though not as a Catholic, so nothing is unknown to me in this realm. Indeed, today itself I attend a Service in my school chapel.

It is disservice to Christianity if one states planchettes and black magic is Christian like.

The second coming of Jesus is still to take place.

It is Christian who are working hard to stop these magic shows of people being seized by spirits and ghosts. Remember, how Satya Sai Baba "miracles" was exposed by the Christian from Sri Lanka.

Ganesh drinking milk and Jesus entering the body of a man are the same type of Blind Faith that fools the gullible!

I totally agree with you... but just because we think like that does not mean the entire world thinks along the same lines....

Tronic
13 Sep 06,, 17:28
they cant do that thing in open, as the INDIAN constitution prohibits recognizing any institution which openly says its sole aim is conversions of other religion practitioners to their religion, and with out recognision from govt a school cannot function as they need to be recognized in order for them to conduct the state/central board exams.

errrmmm... thousands (if not millions) of kids go to Convent schools and come out the same religion they went in....

Ray
13 Sep 06,, 17:46
is it so , those evangelist nuns and fathers will throw slanderous remarks at hinduism calling it paganist,idolist,without central structure,followers railing in ignorance ..so and so ,but u expect hindus to be quiet and even have the audacity to say " take it or leave it " .....
why dont u carry out such things in a hardcore islamic country like PAK and jsut see how they react ....is it like the soft going attitude of hindus being exploited to its maximum ....rememebr there is always a limit and if exceeds its en. Hindudurance u can very well see the reaction .....


At the outset, I make it clear that I have no religion, though I have gone through the route!

It is for this reason of irrelevant strife over something that is believed because we are taught to believe it that I find religious stuff contradictory. Love and Humanity preached and war and strife manifested because of religion! Very abhorring!

The padres and nuns are not technically wrong. Hinduism does have idolatry, but then there is an explanation for it. One cannot pray into empty space. One requires an icon to focus the inner strength to give the outer strength. All religion contributes to idolatry. Hinduism through its multi God pantheon, Christianity through the Statues of Virgin Mary and Jesus (Catholic) others through the Cross, Islam including wahhabis through the Kaaba and other Islamic sects through the Kaaba and the graves of their Saints or even religious festivals as Shab e Barat i.e. praying at the graves of their forefathers etc.

So, one practices what one does not preach!



i can easily point out to thousands of harcore christain missionary organisations ....hinduism is not a proseltyzing relgion like christanity ....


If Hinduism is not a proselytising religion, surely it is not the fault of Christianity, or is it?

Yes, there are many Christian organisations. It is not the question of Faith. It is a question of MONEY.



u talk as if hinduism oppress all the adivasis by denying human rights,education ,freedom of spirit e.t.c .....where did u first come up with this
amazing concepts that christanity is the champion of human rights and education ???????
this kind of attitude is what reeks up tension ....

Hinduism does not oppress the tribal or Adivasi.

It neither uplifts the lot of the tribal and the Adivasi.

Christianity does.

That is the difference.

No one has stopped Hindu organisation to get their act together.


the meaning of fairness :: to be even handed

u think it was fair to stage a occult show in a school ,where some one all the sudden cries that christ ahs entered his body and he has got magical healing powers ----frightining all the students ( 8 to 12 ) ...u call this spritual training ????
it is also funny to see christan missionaries whose used to mock at hindus for thier superstecious belives have themselves now ended up in such kind of occult shows

I totally agree with you. 100%.

They have brought a cloud on the religion and now the Cross has to be borne ever time there is an uproar!

They have brought disgrace to Christian principles since they have indulged in black magic.


okay lemon tree, i make it very much Easy for u to understand ....let the loreto convent change its name board as

LORETO CONVENT SCHOOL
( EVANGELIST CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY SCHOOL)
M.G Marg Lucknow(U.P) India

that will visibly make the parents understand the intention of the school rather than meticulosly reading each and every word of the convents mission statements ......


That is being unfair to the religion of Christianity per se.

The Principal and Father Sebastian (a rat, if you ask me) have let the religion down. Metaphorically speaking, they should be horsewhipped. Ex communication (or fatwa in Islam) was there in Medieval days. Nowadays, it has been junked or else, they deserve to be excommunicated, but then such archaic nonsense is not there any more in Christians.


did RSS existed throught the long history of hinduism ????? ....
all these militant RSS,bajrangdal were a product of extremism shown by other relgions which tried to exploit hinduism ..never was extremism or miltant hindutuva an integral part of hinduism ..


well ,how about looking at both sides of coin ....i striclty condemn violence,but try analysing what prompted some people to commit such a horrible crime ..here is doctor stains hsitory

http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/wadhwa/Graham.html
some excerpts from his life history ::


No.

They have found their voice because of the stupidity of people like the Principal and Father Sebastian who have sold the religion into the gutter.

kindness towards leprosy patents is appreciated ,but strings attached to such affection and caring with a motive to convert as much people as possible was what went wrong .....




yes lemon tree,
thats the cache, missionary schools can keep exploiting illietrate parents as long as u have the education system( be thankful to british) in christain hands ....time will cahnge very soon

do u wanna know why punjab is peaceful and prosperous ::
the reason being both hindus and sikhs doesnt ahve these kind of dirty intentions to proseltyzise their relgion ...."it is as simple as live and let live ".....
but here when a missionary institution tries to convert a people ( naturally belittling other relgions) tension builds up ......as simple like action - reaction concepts ....
so as long as evangelisnt , for that reason any one who thinks that they can exploit hinduism and convert people -be ready to also face the retaliation .....take it or leave it ....even we love our religion .....


Illiterates are exploited by all.

Give something new.

Please. let the Hindus not convert. But if the Christians give a better deal (it is a world of deals these days), why complain?

Vandalising a school is not the answer.

Nothing has happened to the culprits i.e. Principal and Father Sebastian. I bet they are having a jolly good tuck in at the expense of the Church coffers.

The children who study are suffering.

Take those who are the culprits to court, please.

Don't condemn the religion since it is not that in every Christian school they are indulging in shenanigans!

Ray
13 Sep 06,, 17:58
Tronic,

Very few convert out of conviction.

It sounds good, but then it is not true.

A large majority convert because of a better deal.

I love to chat wth people whereever I go and in my career I have visited many a rural area while on exercise. I did not merely look at things then from the Army standpoint. I love meeting people and see how they tick.

Connection with God.

I love that.

Connect and then do evil things like jihad, lies, stealing, vandalising, having Gods enter your bodies, have Gods drink milk!

Indeed!

Placebo for the troubled soul at best.

raj
13 Sep 06,, 18:30
Why are there conversions?

Why do people change jobs?

The answer is very simple in both cases.

Because the other religion/ company is giving a better deal than what one is getting presently.

Christianity gives opportunity to better education (schools), better health (hospital) care etc etc and that too free or at very nominal rates.

In today's irreligious (except for Islam) world, who cares about religion? Yes, who cares? But everyone cares about their own fight for existence and in this fight, whoever helps one to surmount his daily worries wins!

Now, if any religion wants to prevent conversion, it better offer a better and more attractive package for the individuals!

QED.

Rural folks and tribal convert because they are getting a better deal. If someone feels it is incorrect, please don't hesitate in giving them a deal which is even better.

Therefore, the grouse is misplaced.

Lemontree,

I am afraid planchette and black magic is not "Christian principles". And Jesus entering into an idiot's body is one of the most unchristian like stuff I have ever heard and I have gone through the route of being a Christian, though not as a Catholic, so nothing is unknown to me in this realm. Indeed, today itself I attend a Service in my school chapel.

It is disservice to Christianity if one states planchettes and black magic is Christian like.

The second coming of Jesus is still to take place.

It is Christian who are working hard to stop these magic shows of people being seized by spirits and ghosts. Remember, how Satya Sai Baba "miracles" was exposed by the Christian from Sri Lanka.

Ganesh drinking milk and Jesus entering the body of a man are the same type of Blind Faith that fools the gullible!


Ray sir,if i rememeber correctly one of the 10 commendements is "Love Thy neighbour". i donot think it says love him only if he is a christian or willing to convert into christianity

Ray
13 Sep 06,, 18:57
Love thy neighbour does not say one has to be a Christian.

It is a Christian value nonetheless and everyone can follow it, be he a Christian or a pagan or heathen.

I personally try to follow them, but I cannot say I succeed 100%.

But still I try.

I am not perfect.

One doesn't have to be a Christian to be good. Just be honest to your conscience.

Your conscience is your God.

Tronic
13 Sep 06,, 20:32
Tronic,

Very few convert out of conviction.

It sounds good, but then it is not true.

A large majority convert because of a better deal.

I love to chat wth people whereever I go and in my career I have visited many a rural area while on exercise. I did not merely look at things then from the Army standpoint. I love meeting people and see how they tick.

Connection with God.

I love that.

Connect and then do evil things like jihad, lies, stealing, vandalising, having Gods enter your bodies, have Gods drink milk!

Indeed!

Placebo for the troubled soul at best.
yeah, I agree with your point... but what i'm saying is, for whatever reason they convert, it all comes down to their own choice. I don't think they are forcefully baptised now are they???

Tronic
13 Sep 06,, 20:40
Illiterates are exploited by all.

Give something new.

Please. let the Hindus not convert. But if the Christians give a better deal (it is a world of deals these days), why complain?

Vandalising a school is not the answer.

Nothing has happened to the culprits i.e. Principal and Father Sebastian. I bet they are having a jolly good tuck in at the expense of the Church coffers.

The children who study are suffering.

Take those who are the culprits to court, please.

Don't condemn the religion since it is not that in every Christian school they are indulging in shenanigans!

yes, if Principal and Father Sebastian is wrong, then he should be punished for sure... infact, he can be unmasked by our media, something like what our media(started by Aaj Tak) did to the politicians taking bribes... but the difference is, we both know that if they did this to some father or other equaivalent ranked priest of any religion... the RSS backlash again would be that Convent schools would become primary RSS targets.... just by unmasking one such principal, the RSS would use it as an excuse that ALL convents are evil and start their attacks on them all.... it has been done before by these goons.... and besides, these people who vandalized the school are already back in the streets.... Sure Sebastian might be a culprit but the other culprits, the vandalizers that were caught are back on the streets... so I think justice should serve all, not just the RSS...

and btw, it is quite interesting how the RSS acts on issues such as these but where were they and their "young angry youth representing the people" :rolleyes: when the politicians were caught??? where was the backlash then???

Ray
13 Sep 06,, 20:47
yes, if Principal and Father Sebastian is wrong,

Are they not wrong? You still have a doubt?

Balck magic in Christianity?

Huh! Black magic?

Friend, when I saw it on TV all the vandalism, I was wild.

But when the cause was given, I was ashamed.

These skunks have screwed up Christianity as I once knew!

The Archbishop of Calcutta is alleged to be a swindler. I laugh at him on his face. I did it today also when I went my school! I bristled inwardly as he gave his sermon and Blessing.

Men of God, hrrrrrrumph!

Tronic
13 Sep 06,, 21:06
Are they not wrong? You still have a doubt?

Balck magic in Christianity?

Huh! Black magic?

Friend, when I saw it on TV all the vandalism, I was wild.

But when the cause was given, I was ashamed.

These skunks have screwed up Christianity as I once knew!

The Archbishop of Calcutta is alleged to be a swindler. I laugh at him on his face. I did it today also when I went my school! I bristled inwardly as he gave his sermon and Blessing.

Men of God, hrrrrrrumph!
sirji, everything can be explained by a cause... even the Iraq war was justified by a cause(disarming Iraq of WMD)... causes aren't always 100% true....

Ray
13 Sep 06,, 21:33
You are not a Christian and so you won't understand.

Even though Christians are not dogmatic, yet there are certain pirnciple like Compassion, helping the poor or fighting superstition is something that most have it in them as automatic. At least the non Indian padres and nuns.

When one sees these flouted, they see red!

lemontree
14 Sep 06,, 06:30
is it so , those evangelist nuns and fathers will throw slanderous remarks at hinduism calling it paganist,idolist,without central structure,followers railing in ignorance ..so and so ,but u expect hindus to be quiet and even have the audacity to say " take it or leave it " .....
What is paganistic? ....and yes i agree that some do say all the above. But the point is, did the Loreto Convent incident blaspheme the hindu faith. Lets not go on tangent.
Have there been efforts to give reform, organise and educate?

why dont u carry out such things in a hardcore islamic country like PAK and jsut see how they react ....
It is done, and there are mission hospitals and schools there too, and there are converions too. The conversions are in secret though.

is it like the soft going attitude of hindus being exploited to its maximum ....
The exploiters are your own co-religionists.

rememebr there is always a limit and if exceeds its endurance u can very well see the reaction .....
It works both ways.

....hinduism is not a proseltyzing relgion like christanity ....
Please update yourself on the activities of the ISKON and Chinmaya missions abroad.

u talk as if hinduism oppress all the adivasis by denying human rights,education ,freedom of spirit e.t.c .....where did u first come up with this
I did'nt say the hindu faith, I said the Sangh Parivar.

amazing concepts that christanity is the champion of human rights and education ???????
Has'nt it been the champion of education in India?...But I cannot say that about human rights, the past is not so rosy.

this kind of attitude is what reeks up tension ....
No its a sense on insecurity that reeks up tension.

the meaning of fairness :: [COLOR="Red"]to be even handed
Hav'nt they been even handed in education?

u think it was fair to stage a occult show in a school ,where some one all the sudden cries that christ ahs entered his body and he has got magical healing powers ----frightining all the students ( 8 to 12 ) ...u call this spritual training ????
Hav'nt you seen me and others hear condemning the act. I hav'nt supported the.

it is also funny to see christan missionaries whose used to mock at hindus for thier superstecious belives have themselves now ended up in such kind of occult shows
Correction, all christians in India did not participate in that seanse. Just as all hindus did not go and feed milk to Ganpathy idols.

okay lemon tree, i make it very much Easy for u to understand ....let the loreto convent change its name board as
[QUOTE] did RSS existed throught the long history of hinduism ????? ....
all these militant RSS,bajrangdal were a product of extremism shown by other relgions which tried to exploit hinduism ..
These were grouops formed to protect hindus during hindu-muslim riots. The RSS formed in 1925 and the Bajrang Dal in 1984 in response Hindu-Sikh tensions.
The same reasons are given by the muslims for the formation of the SIMI.

never was extremism or miltant hindutuva an integral part of hinduism ..
That is because of Jainism and buddhism that affected a major part of India.
Are you aware of the reasons of the spread of Jainism in India.


kindness towards leprosy patents is appreciated ,but strings attached to such affection and caring with a motive to convert as much people as possible was what went wrong .....
Graham Stains converted by example and spreading love and compassion. Nothing is stopping the Sangh Parivar from doing the same work. What stops them from doing the same work as the Stains and the Mother Teresas?

yes lemon tree,
thats the cache, missionary schools can keep exploiting illietrate parents as long as u have the education system( be thankful to british) in christain hands ....time will cahnge very soon
Agian do a little research. The British made schools are very few, they are the Doons schools, Sherwoods and the Lawrences. The rest were made from scratch by the church orders themselves. The jesuits were professionals and educationalists, it is called 'Karma', who lived and continue living a frugal life, and give back to society. Hindus are handicapped by the temple trusts that earn billions and remain unaccounted.
Has the Sangh Parivar ever bothered to ask where the money goes?
Have you bothered to ask?....

so as long as evangelisnt , for that reason any one who thinks that they can exploit hinduism and convert people -be ready to also face the retaliation .....take it or leave it ....even we love our religion .....
Retaliate by all means if you have been harmed or hurt. But the Sangh Parivar can be sorted out any time believe me.

lemontree
14 Sep 06,, 06:35
Lemontree,

I am afraid planchette and black magic is not "Christian principles". And Jesus entering into an idiot's body is one of the most unchristian like stuff I have ever heard and I have gone through the route of being a Christian, though not as a Catholic, so nothing is unknown to me in this realm. Indeed, today itself I attend a Service in my school chapel.

Sir,
I don't support half of what the church does. But I will have to draw the line when members of the sangh parivar act in a facist manner.
I took an oath to defend our nation from external and internl enemies, and when the time comes the internal enemies will addressed.

Archer
14 Sep 06,, 06:37
holy shux... where do I start???


listen... I have never heard anyone in India forced to convert.

Then please learn and expand your horizons beyond just Punjab. The rest of India is a big place and all sorts of cr@p is happening, which wont disappear just because we wont know about it.



.. If you're saying that Convent schools spread enlightened ideas which make it desirable for the normal people to convert to Christianity, what the heck is wrong with that??? The people have a right to choose which religion they wish to belong to... and no one can take that right away from the, especially in India.... now, Having people forcefully convert you.... that I have never heard or seen Convent schools carrying out... if you think that enlightened ideas spread by the missionaries are a threat then so be it... that still doesn't give the RSS any right to determine an individuals religion...


Your problem is that you are coming in with a preconception. A) What convent schools are teaching is enlightenment B) What RSS is doing is the opposite. And then you are asking as to why A) is not good and B) is Bad.

You have just loaded the question. And then you are asking why?

When will you understand that these are two sides of the same coin?

One cannot exist without the other! One does not need to convert "forcefully"- is telling ten year old kids that their way of life is bad, taking them to prayer meetings, sending them with strict instructions to pray to X not Y "from now on", ethical? Issues like this HAVE arisen. Your loathing of the RSS etc will not make it go away. Tomorrow, ban the RSS, and there will be some BSS which will emerge and act likewise. Understand what is being said!

People have a right to choose when given free and fair information, not when they are exploited or told horse puckey. In MP there have been conflicts because US based missionaries have told locals on their visits, that via conversion, their children would get free education and reservation (which they were already entitled to under law) and they had to "cast out the devil" by burning/ throwing out their earlier heathen idols out. Guess what happened when the neighbours saw that? Is this "freedom" or conmanship?

Given such antics, obviously organizations like the RSS get a political fillip and opportunity to "stand up" since the Govt cannot do ANYTHING.


well... Why shouldn't they preach Christianity to non-Christian kids??? Its their own schools based on Christian values funded by their own money; heck, if you don't want your children to be exposed to Christian values, then don't send them to Christian schools!!!

How many times does this have to be told to you? People have limited resources and education is a valued commodity. You are being extremely silly here- "if the people are hungry, let them eat cake".

The local culture has to be respected and not suborned via attempts to proselytise CHILDREN. They can impart Christian values, but did Christ ask for such tactics from these gents? They are doing disservice to Christianity itself.



backlash from adults??? there was no backlash or protests from anybody... it was just a bloody storming of the school by goons.... If the parents were so concerned then they could've protested themselves... but anyways, it is still wrong to demand that schools of a certain religion stop preaching their own religion because now you have your kids enrolled into it.... thats just plain selfish...

You are being again illogical here. Who do you think would have complained to the RSS? Do you think the VHP etc dont "react" upon recieving complaints? Why do you think the Shiv Sena wins election after election- is it pure rigging or the feeling of "our people"?

Stop twisting around and be categorical- its WRONG -PERIOD- to brainwash kids. Stop messing around with them. They are NOT toys to be converted and "brought over".

ADMIT this. Then talk of goons not having the right to be goons. Of course they bloody dont have the right to be goons.



wtf... so you're saying that Hindus don't have faith in their own religion so if a missionary says a few words, the Hindus convert??? and the RSS has to protect them??? holy crud... reminds me of another organization... Taliban!!!

Stop making such provocative and inflammatory comments.

Missionaries convert via a variety of methods and over a period of time. It is also a fact that the groups targetted for conversion are invariably at the lowest ends of the economic and education strata.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sbc_pray2.htm

And before you say, this is abroad not in India etc, similar booklets are available in MP, UP and Karnataka. The printing is done in bulk, these materials are distributed to new converts as well.


I say this to you... do you ever hear Christian fanatic groups protesting against what is taught in Hindu religious schools??? more specifically, RSS Hindu schools??? no.... but then why is RSS protesting at what is taught in Christian schools??? which btw I think is a false cry; and its quite ironical that RSS is afraid that a religion which constitutes 2% of the entire country is a threat to a religion which constitutes 80% of the country...

Dude wake up. Christian groups, mostly evangelical, not the older Christian denominations which were and are a far cry from the new age bozos, regularly campaign against India abroad, including Indian religious schools, to every tom d!ck and harry thing they find in India. They even called for "sanctions" to be imposed on India. Last year itself, there were multiple denominations to the Indian senate. Its on the .gov site- check it up yourself.

Lastly, what betrays your utter lack of understanding about this topic and inter religious perception is your lack of knowledge about Indian history. Hinduism is NOT a proselytising religion - it has no specific creed to ask anyone to proselytise. ISKON is an exception and shunned by many Hindus because it is deemed weird for its proselytisation and emphasis on one handpicked God. Given this, attempts to convert ARE regarded as aggressive and uneccessary by many Hindus. You may be unaware of this, but talk to most Hindus and this will be a common perception. In such a milieu, when you have missionaries come in, talk of rejecting "false idols" and in the process creating communal discord, they will often meet with resistance, which escalates to violence.

THINK for once, instead of just reacting and posting inflammatory stuff about Taliban etc about why the Hindu right has gained public support over the past two decades as compared to earlier.

Ultimately the people who suffer most from the RSS and its self assigned protector status are Hindus who chafe under its policies, but by consistently rubbishing whatever perceptions the Hindu community has, folks like you ensure that only the RSS is left as an "option". A win-win situation for the RSS or any political party.

The irony is that most people, who laughed at the RSS now privately say "accha kiya" on several topics when the RSS creates a fuss. Such is the state of affairs. And that has not happened because it was bad bad RSS or BSS or DSS.


errrmmm... I think Convent School already gives out the identity of a school as a Christian school...

Anyone can call his school a convent via some skullduggery, its a brandname!


listen... I'm a Sikh and if one day I find the concept of Christianity much more interesting and want to convert; Khalistani Sikhs would be justified to attack Christian places???

No, they would not. However, if your ten year od child is told disrespectful stuff about the Sikh gurus and attempts are made to indoctrinate him at that age, then there will be Sikhs who will protest, and there will be other hotheads who resort to violence, and there will be even smarter types who try to make political capital out of it. And the school will also bear responsibility for their actions.

Archer
14 Sep 06,, 07:05
Anyways, this topic is going in circles. All this talk over the seance and we ended up going elsewhere.

I think its time, some stupid commission or whatever of different authoritative religious leaders was formed, and they all sat down and decided to play nice with each other.

Then we'd be rid of all this back and forth drama & everyone could agree to put their religious live/s as personal & not for public consumption. Let alone political benefit.

Samudra
14 Sep 06,, 08:15
listen... I have never heard anyone in India forced to convert.

We can always call going to a Tsunami hit village with a truck load full of aid materials and asking the people to convert in order to recieve the aid as "forced conversion".

Did you know that a bunch of first years were so badly tortured in a college here - like wake up at 4 AM and read the Bible, that they finally sought the help of student unions in the city?

The unions responded with a HUGE rally with almost 5-6 colleges participating fully.In the mean time a couple of hundred students rode into the college and smashed everything they could lay their hands on.

That stopped the institution from torturing non-Christians.

Looks like there is a world outside the land of five rives. :rolleyes:

gilgamesh
14 Sep 06,, 08:26
Then please learn and expand your horizons beyond just Punjab. The rest of India is a big place and all sorts of cr@p is happening, which wont disappear just because we wont know about it.





Your problem is that you are coming in with a preconception. A) What convent schools are teaching is enlightenment B) What RSS is doing is the opposite. And then you are asking as to why A) is not good and B) is Bad.

You have just loaded the question. And then you are asking why?

When will you understand that these are two sides of the same coin?

One cannot exist without the other! One does not need to convert "forcefully"- is telling ten year old kids that their way of life is bad, taking them to prayer meetings, sending them with strict instructions to pray to X not Y "from now on", ethical? Issues like this HAVE arisen. Your loathing of the RSS etc will not make it go away. Tomorrow, ban the RSS, and there will be some BSS which will emerge and act likewise. Understand what is being said!

People have a right to choose when given free and fair information, not when they are exploited or told horse puckey. In MP there have been conflicts because US based missionaries have told locals on their visits, that via conversion, their children would get free education and reservation (which they were already entitled to under law) and they had to "cast out the devil" by burning/ throwing out their earlier heathen idols out. Guess what happened when the neighbours saw that? Is this "freedom" or conmanship?

Given such antics, obviously organizations like the RSS get a political fillip and opportunity to "stand up" since the Govt cannot do ANYTHING.



How many times does this have to be told to you? People have limited resources and education is a valued commodity. You are being extremely silly here- "if the people are hungry, let them eat cake".

The local culture has to be respected and not suborned via attempts to proselytise CHILDREN. They can impart Christian values, but did Christ ask for such tactics from these gents? They are doing disservice to Christianity itself.




You are being again illogical here. Who do you think would have complained to the RSS? Do you think the VHP etc dont "react" upon recieving complaints? Why do you think the Shiv Sena wins election after election- is it pure rigging or the feeling of "our people"?

Stop twisting around and be categorical- its WRONG -PERIOD- to brainwash kids. Stop messing around with them. They are NOT toys to be converted and "brought over".

ADMIT this. Then talk of goons not having the right to be goons. Of course they bloody dont have the right to be goons.



Stop making such provocative and inflammatory comments.

Missionaries convert via a variety of methods and over a period of time. It is also a fact that the groups targetted for conversion are invariably at the lowest ends of the economic and education strata.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sbc_pray2.htm

And before you say, this is abroad not in India etc, similar booklets are available in MP, UP and Karnataka. The printing is done in bulk, these materials are distributed to new converts as well.



Dude wake up. Christian groups, mostly evangelical, not the older Christian denominations which were and are a far cry from the new age bozos, regularly campaign against India abroad, including Indian religious schools, to every tom d!ck and harry thing they find in India. They even called for "sanctions" to be imposed on India. Last year itself, there were multiple denominations to the Indian senate. Its on the .gov site- check it up yourself.

Lastly, what betrays your utter lack of understanding about this topic and inter religious perception is your lack of knowledge about Indian history. Hinduism is NOT a proselytising religion - it has no specific creed to ask anyone to proselytise. ISKON is an exception and shunned by many Hindus because it is deemed weird for its proselytisation and emphasis on one handpicked God. Given this, attempts to convert ARE regarded as aggressive and uneccessary by many Hindus. You may be unaware of this, but talk to most Hindus and this will be a common perception. In such a milieu, when you have missionaries come in, talk of rejecting "false idols" and in the process creating communal discord, they will often meet with resistance, which escalates to violence.

THINK for once, instead of just reacting and posting inflammatory stuff about Taliban etc about why the Hindu right has gained public support over the past two decades as compared to earlier.

Ultimately the people who suffer most from the RSS and its self assigned protector status are Hindus who chafe under its policies, but by consistently rubbishing whatever perceptions the Hindu community has, folks like you ensure that only the RSS is left as an "option". A win-win situation for the RSS or any political party.

The irony is that most people, who laughed at the RSS now privately say "accha kiya" on several topics when the RSS creates a fuss. Such is the state of affairs. And that has not happened because it was bad bad RSS or BSS or DSS.



Anyone can call his school a convent via some skullduggery, its a brandname!



No, they would not. However, if your ten year od child is told disrespectful stuff about the Sikh gurus and attempts are made to indoctrinate him at that age, then there will be Sikhs who will protest, and there will be other hotheads who resort to violence, and there will be even smarter types who try to make political capital out of it. And the school will also bear responsibility for their actions.

Archer, excellent post. I don't like the RSS types. They are, like commies, control freaks as well. But as you fear in your post, they are one of the best availiable alternatives. Unfortunately so.

I had/have relatives in Congress. One more reason to hate Congies.:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Ray
14 Sep 06,, 08:29
Anyone can call his school a convent via some skullduggery, its a brandname!

One of my officer who left the army, is now doing a roaring business by having a school named "Saint whatever".

The best part is he is not a Christian. He says without "Saint" as a prefix it would not flourish and he has the temerity to pass the school off as a "Convent".

All Christian school are not Convents. It is those schools where Nuns teach.

Lemontree,

My contention is not what the Church does or not to the believers. That is not material.

But to put up an occult show for non Christians is most ridiculous since this would have leaked out in any case and raise the same stink that has been raised! One more arrow in the quiver of the RSS, VHP and the Bajrang Joes!

The Principal and this fraud Father has played into the hands of the RSS and their like. I would even like to believe they are secret agents of the RSS in the guise of being Christians!

Even such ridiculous occult show for Christian children is disgusting. It is Black magic. No self respecting Christian believes in the Occult nor is it subscribed to in the Bible. Miracles are different, but Occult and Black magic is not. That is my contention.

There was huge spat when the last govt wanted to make "astrology" as a subject for a degree! Compared to Astrology, this occult shenanigan does not hold a candle in legitimacy in an education institution. How is Black Magic a part of education?

Mother Teresa did much service and she could have practised Black Magic and people would have believed it totally since she commanded respect of all (Christians and non Christian), but she did not do.

Just not done!

Archer
14 Sep 06,, 08:31
Archer, excellent post. I don't like the RSS types. They are, like commies, control freaks as well. But as you fear in your post, they are the best availiable alternative. Unfortunately so.

Thanks for getting my point. I dislike control freaks & I definitely put the RSS leadership in that category. 70-80 year old prudes deciding whats good for the youth or not.


I had/have relatives in Congress. One more reason to hate that party.:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

That is a very substantial reason.:biggrin:

I have an Indo-Pak peacenik relative, (slightly commie as well). The type who after yet another terror attack would sit and spout shairo shairi about how Mushy dearest needs more time.

You can imagine my Blood Pressure when I meet her. I am happy to say she goes off feeling worse.:biggrin:

Archer
14 Sep 06,, 08:37
One of my officer who left the army, is now doing a roaring business by having a school named "Saint whatever".

The best part is he is not a Christian. He says without "Saint" as a prefix it is would not flourish and he has the temerity to pass the school as a
"Convent".

All Christian school are not Convent. It is those schools where Nuns teach.

Lemontree,

My contention is not what the Church does or not to the believers. That is not material.

But to put up an occult show for non Christians is most ridiculous since this would leaked out in any case and raise the same stink that has been raised! One more arrow in the quiver of the RSS, VHP and the Bajrang Joes!

Even such ridiculous occult show for Christian children is disgusting. It is Black magic. No self respecting Christian believes in the Occult nor is it subscribed to in the Bible. Miracles are different, but Occult and Black magic is not. That is my contention.

Mother Teresa did much service and she could have practised Black Magic and people would have believed it totally since she commanded respect of all (Christians and non Christian), but she did not do.

Just not done!


Sir, I resent that remark, I too am from a Saint school (which was very saintly as you can imagine).:biggrin: :biggrin:

Just kidding. I had sister Solomon to teach me- an apostle of non -violence, whose one stare could make the hardest culprit week kneed and literally in tears.

What a con we went through!

Many years later we came to know she was all bark and no bite & was as gentle as blazes. But we buddhus got conned and how! So many years of mischief lost!:mad:

We never told our juniors though!:biggrin:

Sir as regards the occult show and the like, I fear if we go by what the good Captain has written, he would have sounded them off for doing that in Loretto Convent, and I think you & Mrs Ray would have joined in.:eek: :)

Archer
14 Sep 06,, 08:44
Sir,
I don't support half of what the church does. But I will have to draw the line when members of the sangh parivar act in a facist manner.
I took an oath to defend our nation from external and internl enemies, and when the time comes the internal enemies will addressed.

I can understand, and I think the Sangh too should understand what damage its "lump everyone in the same category" type of antics are causing. Their blunderbuss tactics leave a lot to be desired.

Archer
14 Sep 06,, 08:46
We only have to look at history.

Lets give the blanket statements a rest. They just leave a bad taste in the mouth, and the next day one cannot take them back either. I request you to edit your post.

Ray
14 Sep 06,, 08:51
I have renounced religion long back all because many use religion (any religion) to make a quick buck and fool the people.

I am filled with revulsion as to how the Principal and Father Sebastian have brought the religion to such a sad state, where they are resorting to Black Magic!

Genuine Christian missionaries have contributed immensely to the Indian mindset, even to people like you (if I may say so). They have genuinely tried to uplift society selflessly and possibly even without conversion being on their minds. And the Indian society has benefited immensely, whether you all agree or not.

The missionaries have taught all to believe in oneself. Genuine missionaries have never resorted to Black Magic and pass it off as "miracles" to convert anyone. If people have converted, then it is because the missionaries were symbols of goodness and purity and not mere "trickster".

These two foolish specimens passing off as Christians have done immense disservice to Jesus.

It is blasphemous to state that Jesus has entered the body of a living man!

Archer
14 Sep 06,, 08:59
Genuine Christian missionaries have contributed immensely to the Indian mindset, even to people like you (if I may say so).

I would hope so sir, tho' I must say that I was and am a hopeless case in terms of any lessons percolating into my thick skull! :)

gilgamesh
14 Sep 06,, 09:00
One of my officer who left the army, is now doing a roaring business by having a school named "Saint whatever".

he best part is he is not a Christian. He says without "Saint" as a prefix it would not flourish and he has the temerity to pass the school off as a "Convent".!

Sir, I guess that has more to do with English medium instruction than religion.


All Christian school are not Convents. It is those schools where Nuns teach

...and they have to be Catholic?

Lemontree,

My contention is not what the Church does or not to the believers. That is not material.

But to put up an occult show for non Christians is most ridiculous since this would have leaked out in any case and raise the same stink that has been raised! One more arrow in the quiver of the RSS, VHP and the Bajrang Joes!

The Principal and this fraud Father has played into the hands of the RSS and their like. I would even like to believe they are secret agents of the RSS in the guise of being Christians!

Christians missionaries along with Kangresswallas have raised hue and cry over reconversion attempts by RSS on adivasis. They are introducing gurukul system in remote areas.


Even such ridiculous occult show for Christian children is disgusting. It is Black magic. No self respecting Christian believes in the Occult nor is it subscribed to in the Bible. Miracles are different, but Occult and Black magic is not. That is my contention.

Not to mention that nutcase (pentacoastal?) preacher in Bangalore and his direct attack on other religions of India.


There was huge spat when the last govt wanted to make "astrology" as a subject for a degree! Compared to Astrology, this occult shenanigan does not hold a candle in legitimacy in an education institution. How is Black Magic a part of education?

There is a precedent. We do have a BUM course.:biggrin: Bachelor of Unanni Medicine. I think they have now changed name.:biggrin:

Archer
14 Sep 06,, 09:01
It is blasphemous to state that Jesus has entered the body of a living man!

Thats an Indian twist sir. After all, we do believe in God being in every man. Combining the best of two worlds. :)


There was huge spat when the last govt wanted to make "astrology" as a subject for a degree! Compared to Astrology, this occult shenanigan does not hold a candle in legitimacy in an education institution. How is Black Magic a part of education?

Sir, there were times during my education where a lot of folks would have done black magic to pass their exams (on 2nd thoughts I think thats how they probably passed, LOL)! Perhaps we are being too harsh on the principal here, he might have been trying to get his school through the UP Board! :)

Archer
14 Sep 06,, 09:12
http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articles.asp?aid=322135&sid=REG




Bishops conference condemns vandalism at Loreto convent

New Delhi, Sept 12: The Catholic Bishops` Conference of India (CBCI) has condemned the vandalism at the Loreto convent school in Lucknow following reports of a seance session there to invoke the spirit of Jesus Christ.

The CBCI in a statement said such acts of vandalism are totally unwarranted as they cause disruption of normal activities of the institution and create unpleasant feelings among the people.

"As a civilised society, we should resort to dialogue rather than violence to find solutions to problems," it said.

"It is true that during the prayer session, a few children fainted due to exhaustion. The school authorities promptly attended to the affected children and there was absolutely no cause for panic," it said, adding the incident was blown out of proportion.

The conference said it was in good faith that the principal of the school had invited a priest to deliver a spiritual talk to the students.

They have just added more fuel to the fire, and made the claims of the RSS etc appear justified.

The CBCI should have also censured the principal for his actions. But by drawing a parochial line in the sand, they have made it an us vs them issue, which obviously now the Sangh group will also not back off from, since their claims of getting a priest in to proselytise etc are being indirectly confirmed.

Sigh.

Archer
14 Sep 06,, 09:21
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/mixed-views-on-loreto-incident/21392-3.html


Mixed views on Loreto incident

Divya Iyer
CNN-IBN
Posted Tuesday , September 12, 2006 at 20:40 Email Print

DIVINE INTERVENTION: Henry D'Souza from CBCI says what happenned in Loreto convent is a common practice in Christian-run schools.



New Delhi: The principal of Father Agnel School in Delhi, Father JA Carvalho, dismisses the controversial spiritual session organised in Loreto Convent in Lucknow last week.


The school had organised a special assembly to make students interact with Lord Jesus. Father Carvalho says such events are un-Christian and should not be taken seriously.


"For me, the hissing and grunting is something very unusual and more of an amusement. As far as priests and nuns being involved is concerned, it’s regrettable that men and women who should have known better were a part of this," says Father Carvalho.

But Henry D'Souza from the Catholic Bishops' Conference of India (CBCI), says it's a common practice in Christian-run schools. Such religious and spiritual practises help the students and staff members gain spiritual enlightenment. :rolleyes:


"It was one incident that should be locally solved. Those who took part in the programme went there freely. :rolleyes:

There were 250 students accompanied with their principal and staff members," says Henry D'Souza, Executive Secretary of CBCI.

"Unfortunately, some of them fainted. But they were taken care of. So one should look at it holistically. Let us not blow it out of proportion," he adds.

There are still others within the community, who are being more guarded about the whole affair.


"There is something called Article 30 in the Constitution that allows Christian and other minority institutions to be run for the minority groups. So, the sister was very much within the purview of that," says Principal, St. Mary's School, Safdarjung Enclave, Annie Koshi.


While many in the community feel that such practises should not be encourgaged in a plural society, espcially in a school environment, there are others who give Loreto, a hundred year old institution, the benefit of doubt.


But one thing they are all united about is the fact that vandalism is not the answer to sorting out grievances in a civil society.



This is the problem. People like Mr De Souza who are refusing to acknowledge the unethical issue of using a school for proselytisation and then saying it was done of free will are just blowing hot air.

As a school kid, I would almost always do what my teachers wanted me to. The question of free will, in the highly hierarchical Indian school system is a bit of a joke.

Utilizing ones minority school status and discretionary powers of the teacher-student relationship in this manner are simply, not on.

Secondly, whilst the law may technically allow it, there something known as self policing and the spirit of the thing- only sticking to the technical arguement will not reduce the opposition.

Yes, I know there are other idiots across India who have their kids turn out to wave flags when the local corporator visits and likewise, their actions are equally stupid.

But its high time, that the CBCI realised that such actions do indeed cause offence and did not attempt to keep justifying them. All they are doing is giving their opponents MORE ammo and painting themselves into the moral corner.

Keep kids out of religious tug of wars please!

Ray
14 Sep 06,, 09:22
That is the most stupidest thing to have done.

Prayer session?

What prayer in Christianity includes occult and spirits entering bodies?

I have just attended a Service yesterday. There was no occult, even if the Archbishop looked an unwashed ghost!

No one can blame the institution. Loreto House is a wonderful institution, but with freaks in charge of this great institution, masquerading as Christians, the schools name is going to the dogs.

I am surprised that the Bishops are more stupid than what one can imagine they are!

That Desouza man is talking through his posterior.

Spiritual enlightenment through planchette? What a laugh!

Next on the show is walking talking singing Jesus?

May the Almighty forgive them for taking the name of God in vain!

Archer
14 Sep 06,, 09:33
And the parents were apparently cut up

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1052483


Lucknow convent school shut in protest over Jesus Christ row

Deepak Gidwani
Tuesday, September 12, 2006 00:48 IST

Lucknow: All convent schools in Lucknow were shut down on Monday after an unusual turn of events set in motion with the so-called “manifestation of Lord Jesus Christ in physical form”.

The occult session was organised at Lucknow’s Loreto Convent, one of the most reputed girls’ schools in north India.

Over a dozen students fainted during the ritual while several others came away psychologically upset and frightened.

The episode created a stir after some parents went to the media over the alleged “forceful indoctrination” of their children.

Late Sunday evening, BJP Yuva Morcha (BJPYM) activists vandalised the college, shouting slogans against the college management. They smashed flower pots and glass panes, besides damaging furniture and other property. Chief Minister Mulayam Singh Yadav has ordered an inquiry into the entire incident by the Lucknow District Magistrate.

It all started when the college management invited one Father Sebastian, a Catholic priest from Murshidabad (West Bengal), to stage a “transportation of Jesus” at the college before about 250 students of the senior school (class eight to 12) and some teachers last week.

The Father brought along with him Nobo Kumar Mandal, an Adivasi rickshawpuller also from Murshidabad, to be the “medium” for Christ’s so-called physical manifestation. Both of them belong to the esoteric Chandra cult which stages such acts in institutions across the country.

During the ritual which lasted over two hours, Mandal became “possessed”. A student witness told DNA: “He was writhing in pain… he kept shuddering, making loud and strange noises. At one point of time, he fell to the ground.” Some students were so frightened, they fainted.

Later Mandal claimed that Jesus had entered his body. The students were then lined up to seek his blessings. As he rubbed a cross on their hands, the principal, Sister Monica, and Father Sebastian sprinkled holy water on them.

Asked about the propriety of conducting such a ritual, the college “community leader” Sister Teresa told DNA: “Along with mental development through studies, we also focus on spiritual development of children… this experience was precisely aimed at that.”

To persistent questioning by scribes about parents’ objections, she tersely said: “Ours is a Catholic institution. Parents who have problems with such spiritual acts, are free to take their children to some other school.”

Meanwhile, some students of Loreto Convent gathered in the campus as a mark of moral support to the school authorities.

“The school principal and authorities did nothing against the interests of the students. No one is ever compelled by the school to participate in religious activities. We feel that some vested interests are out to tarnish the image of the school by spreading false stories about the institution,” asserted Varalika Srivastava, a Class 11 student.

School head girl and Class 12 student Anam Zaidi queried, “Why did people not make it an issue when people were being made to believe that Lord Ganesha’s idols were drinking milk or when some people claimed that sea water had turned sweet?” in reference to the controversy over the occult show.

The matter has also taken on a political hue with the BJP defending the violence by its youth wing activists and the Congress demanding a CBI inquiry into the matter.

“If the college had to conduct a religious prayer meeting, it should have been done after school hours… why were all students forced to attend the session?” asks BJP state president Kesri Nath Tripathi, who sees it as a “sinister move for conversion” (to Christianity).

Meanwhile, the Association of Catholic Educational Institutions (UP) would take up the matter at its meeting in Allahabad on September 21, its secretary Father Paul Rodrigues told reporters here.


The key difference is of course that in the case of the recent Sea water BS (Muslims and Hindus iirc) nobody forced the kids to attend the show. Ditto for the Ganesh thingy, again- it was restricted to the Hindu group.

I sincerely think that the gents & ladies who pulled off this stunt should be sent packing for Loretos sake.

The sisters comments about the Catholic institution and spiritual acts and telling the parents to take a hike, are decidedly un Christian, rather arrogant and supercilious. 8th standard Children, for that matter even 10th standard ones, are still too young for this kind of nonsense. And there was definitely no need to get everyone involved.

I daresay, the sisters whom I studied with, would have not been so charitable with this lady.

veera8
14 Sep 06,, 09:45
tronic,
i serioulsy advice u to come out of punjab and look at the other side of
world too .let me site one simple ,recent example .

From our company we were taken to a voulnteer helping camp in the worst tsunami affected areas of NAgapattam(TN) .when we landed there i was shocked at the intense christian missioanry activities under the veil of rehabilation and monetary help that were taking place with one sole intention ---
"exploit the poor people at the times of need with luring commodities like money ,education e.t.c and ultimately convert them to christanity " ...

do u have any idea how proseltyzing activities are carried out

1) volunteerly they will come forward with help either as monetary or education stuff
2) then brain washing will slowly start - - all your suffering in life wil be direclty blamed on your religion
3)U start listening ,then the slanderous attack will slowly start (paganist,misguided,satanist e.t.c) ,perhaps in other words ur present religion will be made to look like Evil and their as angelish .....
4) ultimately the vulnerable,poor people will end up in theri trap

but the bottom line being -proseltyzing directly attacks ur religion to make it look like EVIL and convince people to convert .....

if u analyze carefully u will find a crazy compettion happening between muslims Vs christains as whom to win at the judgement day ...

The relgions of our INDIAN soil never had such proseltyzing intentions ,but today we are caught in between this crazy race between christains VS Muslims

Have u ever thought of converting any one to sikhism??? no ,u wont ,perhaps u wont even have such a feeling to proseltyze others .....but
ask any christain or Muslim to be true to their words ,they will always have a ingrained feeling to proseltyze and convert others ......

The question is
1)why are they not content with their religion???
2)why should they have always have an intention to belittle other relgions to make theirs look superior ????
3) What prompted them to think they are the properity of GOD and what makes them think that all others live as ignorant and in dark ages other than the one who folows "relgion of books"??????

today they have money and education system defined in their terms ,so naturally they will always have a lead ......we have many poor people in india and to them those poor people are potential converts .......
they will not stop this proseltyzing activity ,they are the one who are pushing us to the limits ..not the other way around

Ray
14 Sep 06,, 09:52
Look this is a one off case.

I condemn it, but this does not happen universally.

I also admit that it is arrogant to state that people who object to their children attending the black magic show, should go to other schools.

They are just asking for trouble!

This type of tomfoolery doesn't happen in other schools.

It is as stupid as not singing Vande Mataram.

Archer
14 Sep 06,, 09:59
Veera,

Not all Christians or Muslims are out to proselytise either. Most are as (ab)normal as you and me and more concerned with baywatch rather than watching converts! :)

lemontree
14 Sep 06,, 10:08
but the bottom line being -proseltyzing directly attacks ur religion to make it look like EVIL and convince people to convert .....
Veera,
May I ask you a question pertaining to your religion. It is just to show that there are many who learn from it too.
Who was Sita's father?

veera8
14 Sep 06,, 10:14
Veera,

Not all Christians or Muslims are out to proselytise either. Most are as (ab)normal as you and me and more concerned with baywatch rather than watching converts! :)

Archer,
iam not against any religion and i hate those RSS goons as much as minorities do ...my only concern is

dont bring religion into education and split open the society ...Mother INDIA is known for its secular and cultural beauty ,dont spoil it .keep relgions and gods
in your home and respect humanity ...the world will rest in peace ....
"live and let live others"

lemon tree,
in the course of discussion if i had hurted ur feelings ,with all due respect i apologize .

i rest my case .....

peace
veera

Archer
14 Sep 06,, 10:16
I get it plus I didnt mean to imply that you were against any religion and apologise if it came out that way. I know your post was directed against a specific segment of folks, and was just trying to focus it more by pointing out the same and not all/most christians, which I think even you didnt mean.

Samudra
14 Sep 06,, 11:40
Who was Sita's father?

Just to refresh myself, is'nt there a version of Ramayana in which Sita is actually the daughter of Mandhodhari and Ravana? :confused:

I'm told there a dozens of Ramayanas
Authored Kambar, Valmiki, Tulsidas - quite a few versions are out there.

God knows how many changes the magnificent epic has undergone in the ages gone by.:rolleyes:

lemontree
14 Sep 06,, 11:58
Just to refresh myself, is'nt there a version of Ramayana in which Sita is actually the daughter of Mandhodhari and Ravana? :confused:

I'm told there a dozens of Ramayanas
Authored Kambar, Valmiki, Tulsidas - quite a few versions are out there.

I am aware of just 2 versions.

There are also 2 versions of why Ravana carried out the kidnapping of Sita.
- One versions states that he was a great deciple of Vishnu, and was granted imortality, and needed Ram to kill him and grant him peace.
- second version he was plain evil.

lemontree
14 Sep 06,, 12:01
lemon tree,
in the course of discussion if i had hurted ur feelings ,with all due respect i apologize .
i rest my case .....
peace
veera
No offence taken, this was just a debate.

Archer
14 Sep 06,, 13:34
Just to refresh myself, is'nt there a version of Ramayana in which Sita is actually the daughter of Mandhodhari and Ravana? :confused:

I'm told there a dozens of Ramayanas
Authored Kambar, Valmiki, Tulsidas - quite a few versions are out there.

God knows how many changes the magnificent epic has undergone in the ages gone by.:rolleyes:


I prefer the Mahabharata myself. Got more action in it too. :)

Tronic
14 Sep 06,, 21:09
ok folks.... taking your threads into consideration... what was done at that school was simply plain wrong... by the school authorities..... BUT... the action taken by the RSS was even worse..... the solution would be to get a government declaration condemning the school authorities for the little stage show they carried out and warn them of further consequences if stuff like this continues to happen.... and after done that... all the people responsible for the vandilization of the school should be held accountable and charged.... and RSS should also be condemned and warned against carrying out any further acts of violence.....

Ray
15 Sep 06,, 08:28
Well summed up by Tronic.

Lemontree,

Tronic is the Alpha material for Army courses, right?

Summing up! ;) :)

lemontree
15 Sep 06,, 08:51
Well summed up by Tronic.

Lemontree,

Tronic is the Alpha material for Army courses, right?

Summing up! ;) :)
Absolutely.:biggrin:

Tronic
15 Sep 06,, 12:45
gahhh... thanks... and i'm absolutely 100% army material... ;) :redface: :biggrin:

Ray
15 Sep 06,, 15:08
gahhh... thanks... and i'm absolutely 100% army material... ;) :redface: :biggrin:

Not army material.

Chief material!

Tronic
15 Sep 06,, 16:55
Not army material.

Chief material!
wow.... thanks!!! :cool:

ps: I read Chef for a second there... :biggrin:

SLASH
15 Sep 06,, 18:20
:biggrin:

http://www.nightmarefactory.com/FW1524.jpg

j/k:)

Tronic
15 Sep 06,, 20:34
heh heh heh... funny...