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Russian
04 Jan 04,, 19:26
The AK-74M is the best, of course, because the M-16 very unreliable. If you just drop down it, it wouldn't shoot.

bigross86
04 Jan 04,, 19:36
Yay, another Commie. Fun, fun, fun

Bill
05 Jan 04,, 02:03
lol

Stinger
05 Jan 04,, 12:46
Originally posted by Russian
If you just drop down it, it wouldn't shoot. Thats called a safety measure. If you drop it it won't go off and shoot you in the crotch, it was specificaly designed for the French, but assuming you are foolish enough to drop it you need only dust it off and it is good to go again.... and you don't even need to cry medic.

ChrisF202
05 Jan 04,, 20:32
Its accuracy after the 1st shot is questionable, the M-16 is always accurate

bigross86
05 Jan 04,, 20:38
Wow, the first shot is accurate for you? What kind of dark magic are you using?

Lunatock
05 Jan 04,, 22:34
Originally posted by bigross86
Yay, another Commie. Fun, fun, fun

They need to stop. Seriously...these guys are scary. :LOL

Lunatock
05 Jan 04,, 22:48
If you thought they were fun fun fun on a message board. Try dealing with some of these pinko's in real life.

Two short examples of a few that were in this area at one time. Vlad, Tollie, and Sergei.

First off. And in one night they manages to get on Sgt Brutus's bad side (Drill Sgt Sean Rozick, USMC.) By laughing at the name Dog Tags. They got heckled for a few hours.

And then. Yours truly saw one of them screwing around w/ Rusty Kimet's G-friend at the time

(Rusty in a amatuer boxer. Says he won the Gold Gloves. Proven fact he took down an amatuer wrester, Sheldon something or another.)

Thought that maybe to one of lead to a one-two. That'd be the end of it concerning Sergei.

That ended up being a minor fued with the Russians, some of thier equally puny relatives, that came from who knows where just to chicken out. And a few of the Ephrata preps. (Who later hooked up with Matt Hale. Tried to kill me. And, ironically. Had me hooked up with a Chechen.)

Oh, there was a second run-in w/ Sgt Brutus and those Rooskie prep-dweebs.

Sgt.Brutus got wanted one night, and fell asleep on his couch. Only to be woken up by Vlad, Sergei, and Tolli wrestling & yelling across the street.

He stumbled towards them "damn kids are too loud". Grabbed one of them by the back of the neck. Threw him.

Picked up another one by his collar. And he started yelling "don't hit me!"

ChrisF202
06 Jan 04,, 00:07
Originally posted by Lunatock
If you thought they were fun fun fun on a message board. Try dealing with some of these pinko's in real life.

Two short examples of a few that were in this area at one time. Vlad, Tollie, and Sergei.

First off. And in one night they manages to get on Sgt Brutus's bad side (Drill Sgt Sean Rozick, USMC.) By laughing at the name Dog Tags. They got heckled for a few hours.

And then. Yours truly saw one of them screwing around w/ Rusty Kimet's G-friend at the time

(Rusty in a amatuer boxer. Says he won the Gold Gloves. Proven fact he took down an amatuer wrester, Sheldon something or another.)

Thought that maybe to one of lead to a one-two. That'd be the end of it concerning Sergei.

That ended up being a minor fued with the Russians, some of thier equally puny relatives, that came from who knows where just to chicken out. And a few of the Ephrata preps. (Who later hooked up with Matt Hale. Tried to kill me. And, ironically. Had me hooked up with a Chechen.)

Oh, there was a second run-in w/ Sgt Brutus and those Rooskie prep-dweebs.

Sgt.Brutus got wanted one night, and fell asleep on his couch. Only to be woken up by Vlad, Sergei, and Tolli wrestling & yelling across the street.

He stumbled towards them "damn kids are too loud". Grabbed one of them by the back of the neck. Threw him.

Picked up another one by his collar. And he started yelling "don't hit me!"
Is this true?

Lunatock
06 Jan 04,, 00:42
Yes it's true.
Rusty Kimet.
D.S. Sean Rozick.
Those Russian tools.
Matt Hale, the nazi shitbag.
The Ephrata Pa. Preps.
The miserably failed attempt by the last two or three, to end me...Make the first two part of a group that thought the little lady (The Chechen) was behind it.
And myself are all 100% Bonafide real.

What a pity certain people don't have Matt Hale to line thier pockets anymore.

And what a way getting my hands on him, would of been to humiliate those Preps. Might of collected a nice bounty too.

tomas
07 Jan 04,, 09:17
that is all too class but back to the subject i agree the AK-74M is a good rifle not that i would trust my life to it give me a M16A2 any day. :D :D :sniper

Bill
07 Jan 04,, 15:10
"Wow, the first shot is accurate for you? What kind of dark magic are you using?"

CLASSIC BR! ;)

Lunatock
07 Jan 04,, 17:09
Originally posted by M21Sniper
"Wow, the first shot is accurate for you? What kind of dark magic are you using?"

CLASSIC BR! ;)

If you hold up a cross. Will that particular AK74 backfire?

bigross86
07 Jan 04,, 19:04
I've always had a way with words...

Lunatock
08 Jan 04,, 00:30
Got any ways to defeat a demonicly posessed AK? :)

One idea could be to advance on the Commie using it and constantly repeat "I walk through the valley of the shadow of death". Or "La Illaha Ilalallah". Maybe the Jewish equivelent.

Quickly repeating Religous phrases might render this cursed Kalishnakov inaccurate...and if not your chances of having it good in the afterlife are high. :D

AmericanMarine
15 Jan 04,, 20:29
It's almost funny what some people will say.

Lunatock
15 Jan 04,, 21:29
Originally posted by Russian
The AK-74M is the best, of course, because the M-16 very unreliable. If you just drop down it, it wouldn't shoot.

Wonder if his English is bad...or if he meant "drop down it" as something we'd rather not hear in great detail?

Ironduke
18 Jan 04,, 19:36
Originally posted by Russian
The AK-74M is the best, of course, because the M-16 very unreliable. If you just drop down it, it wouldn't shoot.
Probably because Russian soldiers keep dropping their rifles and running, whereas American troops do not. :lol

tomas
21 Jan 04,, 14:37
thats because they are smart you Americans aint

:D :D :sniper :taynk

bigross86
21 Jan 04,, 15:00
[heavy sarcasm]Right... That's the reason![/heavy sarcasm]

AmericanMarine
21 Jan 04,, 19:45
They are smart for making a gun that can't shoot past 100m accurately? How many times do we have to say it... Look online for the designs of the guns. You'll notice the M-16 is actually accurate.. And an M-16 is not hard to keep clean. Unless you're just a lazy bastard..

bigross86
21 Jan 04,, 20:39
Hey! I resent that! I'm not a bastard!!!

tomas
22 Jan 04,, 10:29
well i am but doesn't matter i would clean the gun if i needed to use it

eMGee
31 Jan 04,, 13:39
Too bad, appart from reliability issues .., the AR-15 type rifles are underpowered too.

I wonder... what if the U.S. military would've settled with the AR-10 (7.62x51mm) and developed it further like they did with the AR-15 (M-16)? Or from a reliability point of view, what if they'd have settled with the AR-18? (like countries such as Japan have, more or less).

tomas
02 Mar 04,, 09:57
then they would have too many guns to choose from we need to upgrade existing guns like the M16a2 or mp5 not getting more guns

Ray
02 Mar 04,, 13:03
We have AK 47s in our Army. They are good, accurate and require very little maintenance.

Therefore, lets have the rationale why M 16 is better. I have not used an M 16 and so I couldn't comment on it.

The fact that even rag tag rebels and terrorists all over the world use the AK series and opearte in jungles, deserts and godforsaken places and mostly on the run, is indicative it is not a rotten weapon.

Officer of Engineers
02 Mar 04,, 18:35
When the Canadians were looking to replace the old trusted FN C1 (FAL), we looked at serveral rifles, including the Gali, the Steyr, FA MAS, and the M16. The Chinese company NORINCO made a half hearted attempt at the bid with a Type-56 (AK-47) rechambered to 5.56mm and the rifle was near impossible to beat on a price-per-point basis.

CF eventually chosed the M16 but not based on price per point. The Canadian version costs $1300 per rifle. The Type-56 based upon the quantity the CF wanted (12,000 rifles) was $75 per rifle.

Among the superior performances of the C7 over the Type 56

- 10,000 rounds service life vs maxium 3500
- Cold barrel 3 inch groupings vs 5 inch
- Hot barrel 4.5 inch groupings vs 6.2 inch
- Vastly superior optics coupling abilities and much better optics available

However, NOT enough to justify the price difference. ($75 vs $1300). You can get 14 AKs for the price of 1 M16!!!!!!!!

I think what killed NORINCO's chances was that they were unable to set up local production which was demanded by the Canadian government and maintain that price point. But sure was interesting.

eMGee
02 Mar 04,, 18:50
Ray, what about the INSAS rifle?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Special/AeroIndia2003/Indoor-Insas.jpg

Lunatock
02 Mar 04,, 18:55
Good eye candy. Got anything on it besides the pic?

Ray
02 Mar 04,, 18:59
INSAS is a good rifle. I have used both AKs and INSAS in combat (counter insurgency). I really cannot say 'A' is better than 'B'. Both are near maintenance free, rugged and accurate. Recoil? It depends on the firer and his 'hold'.

I am sure if I used the M 16 it would match, but then the US equipment is like a great looking girl that requires a lot of pampering. That's what is the experience with the limited US non lethal but very good equipment that we have.

eMGee
02 Mar 04,, 19:10
India hopes to sell INSAS rifle to Nepal (http://www.stratmag.com/issue2Aug-1/page02.htm#a04)

INSAS compared with the CZ2000 (http://www.stratmag.com/issueAug-1/page02.htm#a01)

I used to have more information on the INSAS and Ishapore. I think I read that Ishapore was, originally (during the collonial days), a British firearms manufacturing plant.

If I have more, I'll post it here Lunatock.

Ray
02 Mar 04,, 19:10
The INSAS is a family of weapons consisting of an assault rifle, a light machine gun (LMG), and a carbine. A folding butt Paratroop version of the assault rifle also exists. INSAS has been in development since the mid-1980s under the auspices of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and Armaments Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), Pune. Of the three weapons types, the assault rifle and LMG have already entered service with the Army. The_ INSAS assault rifle provides a much awaited_ replacement for the cumbersome 7.62 mm Ishapore FN FAL. In line with the Indian Army's standardization plans, the INSAS also allows the Army to begin replacement all rifles presently in service. INSAS introduction was delayed due to the lack of an an indigenous facility to produce the needed 5.56X45mm SS109-based ammunition. Though this round is based on the SS109, it_ is not NATO standard, as it is intended to provide a long range firing capability._ The approach now appears to be induct INSAS with NATO standard ammunition while production gears up for the local round. In the meantime 50 million Indian Standard rounds (with options on a further 50 million) rounds were ordered from Israel Military Industries in 1997._ The INSAS appears to have entered full service with the Indian Army during late 1997. It was significant that the 1998 Republic Day parade for the first time featured all marching contingents with the INSAS. In 1997-1998 production for the assault rifle stood at 90,000 units. In light of the Kargil conflict of 1999 it is possible that production of the rifles has increased.

The Kargil conflict also provides a good testing ground for the rifle and feedback will undoubtedly be incorporated into the future versions of the rifle.

Description: The INSAS 5.56mm assault rifle is a gas-operated selective fire weapon which shows an interesting blend of features culled from a variety of sources: receiver and pistol grip (Kalashnikov); butt, gas regulator and flash-hider (FN FAL); Fore-end (AR-15); cocking handle (H&K). The gas system operates the usual front locking rotating bolt.

Sheet metal pressings (1.8mm thick) are used for the receiver and the barrel bore is chrome plated. All furniture is made from a plastic-based material. The magazine housing accommodates standard M16 magazines, although the standard magazine is made of semi-transparent plastic and holds 20 rounds; the 30-round magazine for the INSAS LMG can also be used. The selector mechanism allows single shots and 3-round bursts. The adoption of 3-round bursts is a result of the Indian Army's experience in Sri Lanka. It was found that 3-round bursts gave the user optimal control over the weapon and prevented the waste of ammunition.

Passive night sights or optical sights can be mounted. The muzzle attachment doubles as a flash eliminator and rifle grenade launcher. Accessories include a blank firing attachment, multipurpose bayonet, and a sling. One design detail is the use of the old Lee-Enfield No 1 Mark III butt-plate, complete with trap for oil bottle and cleaning pull-through. The LMG differs from the AR in possessing a longer and heavier barrel with revised rifling, and a bipod (a revision of the bipod fitted on Indian produced Bren guns). The 20-round AR magazine can be used as well as the 30-round LMG magazine (also semi-transparent plastic). There is no 3-round burst selection and the iron sights are calibrated for ranges of 200 to 1000m because of the higher ballistic performance of the longer barrel; the barrel cannot be rapid-changed.

A grenade launcher adaptor is fitted but there is no provision for a bayonet. As with the AR, a folding-butt model is available and also a shorter barrel version. Mounting points for attachment to vehicles and ground mountings are provided.

Specifications (Assault Rifle):
Cartridge: 5.56X45mm SS109 Special
Operation: gas, selective fire (3-round bursts)
Locking: Rotating bolt
Feed: 20 or 30 round plastic box magazine
Weight: empty (w/o magazine), 3.2kg, loaded, 4.1kg
Length: fixed butt 945mm; butt folded, 750mm; butt extended, 960mm
Barrel: 464mm
Rifling: 6 grooves, rh, 1 turn in 200mm
Sights: fore, blade; rear, flip aperture, 200 and 400m
Muzzle velocity: 915m/s
Rate of fire: cyclic, 650rds/min
Max effective range: 400m
Muzzle energy: 1684J
Manufacturer: Rifle Factory, Ishapore
Specifications (LMG):
Cartridge: as for AR
Operation: as for AR (no 3-round burst)
Locking: as for AR
Feed: 30-round plastic box magazine
Weight: fixed butt, empty, 6.23kg, loaded 6.73kg; folding butt, empty, 5.87kg, loaded 6.37kg
Length: fixed butt, 1.05m; butt folded, 890mm; butt extended, 1.025m
Barrel: standard, 535mm; short, 500mm
Rifling: 4 grooves, rh, 1 turn in 200mm
Sights: as for AR (200-1000m instead of 200-400m)
Sight radius: 475mm
Muzzle velocity: 925m/s (std barrel), 915m/s (short barrel)
Muzzle energy: 1780J (std barrel), 1740J (short barrel)
Recoil energy: 2.75J (std barrel), 2.85J (short barrel)
Rate of fire: as for AR
Max effective range: 700m (std barrel), 600m (short barrel)
Manufacturer: Small Arms Factory, Kalpi Road, Kanpur.

tomas
08 Mar 04,, 13:16
wow now thats a lot of info cool :Beer :ar15

Ray
08 Mar 04,, 14:42
Now, did he mean 'drop down it' or 'drop down on it'?:D

Alex
08 Mar 04,, 23:09
Hello everybody! Just a few points:

1. I see when most of posters hear "AK" they remember AK-47. And their statement that M-16 in some aspects is better is quite true, but I don't think it's a good idea to compare AK-47 and M-16. AK was accepted as main infantry weapon in soviet army in 1947. Let's compare it with basic infantry weapon US army had in 1947. Or let's remember later AK's. for example, AK-74M mentioned in topic's title or AKM.

2. AK is the most reliable gun in the world. I saw how they test AKs. A man in special siut goes into isolated chamber, where sand storm conditions are recreated. After 10 minutes of such "storm" he shakes AK from dust with his hand and AK fires! Then, water begin to fall from the ceiling of the chamber (vietnamese tropic rain is recreated) After 10 minutes of such "rain" AK still fires. After that, temperature in chamber is dropped to -30C. AK quickly became covered with ice, but it still fires. And all this is without cleaning it, or drying, or something like that. I think reliability is better for real war than even acuracy. Because if you have to fix your gun under enemy fire, accuracy doesn't matter. It's just my humble opinion.

3. As I heared, M-16 have problems with burst fire - sometimes shutter (i'm not sure in this term. we call this part zatvor) remains open, there's no new shell given from magazine, so gun is unable to fire, and soldier must close shutter by hand using special button (see photo). Am I right?
http://www.airsoft.kiev.ua/articles/real_weapon/m16/m16_8.jpg

As for my personal choice, I would prefer something like AEK-71 or AN-94 - modern weapons that are used by Russian spetznaz.

Officer of Engineers
09 Mar 04,, 06:32
Originally posted by Alex
2. AK is the most reliable gun in the world. I saw how they test AKs. A man in special siut goes into isolated chamber, where sand storm conditions are recreated. After 10 minutes of such "storm" he shakes AK from dust with his hand and AK fires! Then, water begin to fall from the ceiling of the chamber (vietnamese tropic rain is recreated) After 10 minutes of such "rain" AK still fires. After that, temperature in chamber is dropped to -30C. AK quickly became covered with ice, but it still fires. And all this is without cleaning it, or drying, or something like that. I think reliability is better for real war than even acuracy. Because if you have to fix your gun under enemy fire, accuracy doesn't matter. It's just my humble opinion.

Proper weapons discipline renders these points meaningless. On deployment, I clean my rifle and sidearm every day regardless if I used them or not.


Originally posted by Alex
As for my personal choice, I would prefer something like AEK-71 or AN-94 - modern weapons that are used by Russian spetznaz.

Only a very small percentage of soldiers around the world get to choose their weapons. You get what you get and you learn to live with it.

Ray
09 Mar 04,, 07:26
Colonel,

In combat situation, there is hardly any discipline, let alone weapon discipline.

It rankles the commander, but one can't suprevise all.

I rather have a weapon in the Army which responds to idiots firing than a weapon that responds to a good soldier.

Don't mind, even as a senior officer, I cleaned my weapon, but I know how some idiots avoided doing so being downright lazy, till kicked. It makes all sort of idiots that make the Army.

If you don't have such freaks in your Army, you are really lucky!

Officer of Engineers
09 Mar 04,, 16:43
Sir,

That's the job of the Sgts, at least in our Army and woe be he who do not practise nor enforce weapons discipline. I don't know about the InA but, in the Canadian, British, and Australian armies NO ONE goes up against the Regimental Sergeant-Major and come out with his skin intact, including the Colonel.

I cannot say that I've witnessed the type of combat you've encountered. The longest duration for me was 120 hrs with about 5 hrs of enforced rest here and there. Discipline did crack as with what happened to MWO Stopford but that was invinsible. Weapons discipline was enforced during that time but in all honesty, I wouldn't know what kind of discipline we would have had if we were to face continous combat weeks on end.

Jay
09 Mar 04,, 16:58
When I was in NCC that inhumane Havildar kicked my butt to clean my rifle for every 15 rounds. And finally he ordered me to come to cleaning area where they cleaned all the rifles after firing :mad:

Bill
18 Mar 04,, 09:40
There is no more sure fire sign of a bad(or at the very least improperly motivated) soldier than one who doesn't properly care for his weapon.

He's the same slob that will fall asleep on watch rotation, and the same moron that will stand around while his squad mates carry the load.

I had a special fondness for tormenting such 'soldiers'.

s_qwert63
18 Mar 04,, 22:54
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers

Among the superior performances of the C7 over the Type 56

- 10,000 rounds service life vs maxium 3500
- Cold barrel 3 inch groupings vs 5 inch
- Hot barrel 4.5 inch groupings vs 6.2 inch
- Vastly superior optics coupling abilities and much better optics available



Would you say that Chinese AK's can be compared to Soviet/Russian AK's?

Officer of Engineers
19 Mar 04,, 03:16
Originally posted by s_qwert63
Would you say that Chinese AK's can be compared to Soviet/Russian AK's?

They're both AKs, so there is a little comparison but since I am not a big fan of the series, I cannot tell you the side-by-side comparison. Enough gun magazines have already done that. If price is no object, the Ruger-14 outperforms them all but bang-for-the-buck, the Chinese got it hands down.

I can tell you that I like the Russian finish better than the Chinese but I don't know if I would want to spend the extra $200 for it.

Bill
24 Mar 04,, 04:38
Supposedly the Czech AKs are the best of the lot.

Like the colonel i have no love for them though, so i dunno.

Lunatock
24 Mar 04,, 15:21
Originally posted by M21Sniper
Supposedly the Czech AKs are the best of the lot.

Like the colonel i have no love for them though, so i dunno.

Think I'd take a CZ75 over any other Czech gun. Especially an AK

Bill
24 Mar 04,, 16:45
Czechs have a reputation for making great firearms, CZ series included.

RUSKIE
24 Jun 04,, 00:54
http://www.baconbomb.com/modworks/images/gr_weapon_modeling/2_ak74m_ref1.jpg

RUSKIE
24 Jun 04,, 06:48
actually i think russian durability comes on accident lol, i mean every sigle russian weapon though no very accurate is extremly durable. Besides i would rather take durability than accuracy i mean what good is a weapon if it doesnt work??

Lunatock
24 Jun 04,, 15:40
If you want to talk about durability. Operation Gothic Serpant: There was never one single incident of any of the Rangers, Delta, and SOARS having a gun rendered inoperable by the dirt, dust, or sand. Whichever it was.

Desert Storm & Iraqi Freedom weren't the gun jamming nightmares that you Reds predict widespread use of American weapons would be.

Ironduke
24 Jun 04,, 17:04
actually i think russian durability comes on accident lol, i mean every sigle russian weapon though no very accurate is extremly durable. Besides i would rather take durability than accuracy i mean what good is a weapon if it doesnt work??
Russian firearms have very loose tolerances, a reflection of their manufacturing techniques.

lurker
24 Jun 04,, 17:41
Russian firearms have very loose tolerances, a reflection of their manufacturing techniques.
That is BS, probably from Clancy books.

p.s. ;) Reading "The hunt for Red October" right now. Guy defenitely have some issues against Russians. So much hateful BS I've never heard in my life.

Bill
24 Jun 04,, 17:46
AKs have much looser tolerances than western weapons. That's why they're A so reliable and B so innacurate.

eMGee
24 Jun 04,, 19:05
I like the AN-94 "Abakan" and the AK-101 a lot, from what I've heard and seen of them.

Sinfulcurves_AK
27 Jun 04,, 03:39
I like the AN-94 "Abakan" and the AK-101 a lot, from what I've heard and seen of them.

The 107/108 seem better, I like those too

TopHatter
27 Jun 04,, 17:38
AKs have much looser tolerances than western weapons. That's why they're A so reliable and B so innacurate.

I recall an interview with Kalashnikov where one he states one of the principles in designing the AK-47 was "throw a handful of sand in [the weapon], and still be able to shoot it anyway".

Officer of Engineers
27 Jun 04,, 18:33
What I don't understand is why the East Bloc still insists in using corresive powders.

Jay
27 Jun 04,, 20:01
Colonel,
Corrosive powder?? :confused:

Officer of Engineers
27 Jun 04,, 21:07
Colonel,
Corrosive powder?? :confused:

Their powders don't burn as clean as ours and leaves a residue that is highly toxic to both flesh and metal. For the kind of abuse everybody is touting that the AK can take, it ain't nothing when compared to the fact that the gun was designed to fire even after that kind of build up.

That's one thing you can tell between those who knows what they're talking about and those who don't. I strongly recommend AGAINST NORINCO and YUGO brands. Even with a bad AK, you'll notice the difference in performance between say WINCHESTER 7.62AK and NORINCO 7.62AK rounds.

Alex
27 Jun 04,, 21:33
I like the AN-94 "Abakan" and the AK-101 a lot, from what I've heard and seen of them.

AN-94 unlike Ak-100s isn't AK modification, it's quite different gun with similar appearence

eMGee
27 Jun 04,, 23:48
I know, so what?

Alex
28 Jun 04,, 01:07
I know, so what?

Nothing. I didn't mean to educate you, but to make a small addition for those who doesn't know. (I saw in the other thread AN-94 was called "another variant of Ak-47").

eMGee
28 Jun 04,, 01:18
Ah, okay! Sorry about that ;)

griftadan
27 Jul 04,, 08:59
lol bigross i know what you mean. there just sore from loosing.. oh man im gonna get heat for that..

leib10
18 Feb 05,, 00:30
I also own an AK-74. I find that it is superior to either the AK-47 and M16 for combining accuracy, controllability, reliability and hitting power. My AK-74 is full auto, and thanks to the excellent compensator it is quite controllable.

sniperdude411
18 Feb 05,, 21:57
I also own an AK-74. I find that it is superior to either the AK-47 and M16 for combining accuracy, controllability, reliability and hitting power. My AK-74 is full auto, and thanks to the excellent compensator it is quite controllable.

I wouldn't really brag about long-range accuracy...

sw55
10 Mar 05,, 19:40
Just a couple points. First, the M-16 reputation for unreliability stems from its initial production and introduction in Viet Nam, which did not have the chrome lined barrel. That little problem caused jams and other serious problems. Needless to say, after 25 years of production and refining that problem is fixed. I would bet it is close to any AK today in reliability. Amazing as it may be to these Russians, the US military would not continue to purchase and arm it's troops with an inferior weapon. On the contrary, my SAR-2 which is the AK-74 in only semi-auto, jams more than anything I have. Cheap Russian made ammo, with the laqour painted steal rounds sticks a shell every now and then.

Now reliability being relatively equal, (and any one who has experience with the M-16 today in reliability???) the rounds are slightly favoring the US rifle over the 5.45 Soviet round in speed (2900 -vs- 3400 for the 5.56 M-16 round) Accuracy definately favors the US rifle. Groupings mentioned earlier I have yet to get with my rifle. It is not accurate.

Bill
10 Mar 05,, 23:32
The M-16A2/A4 are very reliable so long as they're kept reasonably clean.

I don't recall my issued M-16A2 ever jamming on me.

Fury
12 Mar 05,, 12:31
Just out of curiosity, how does the M16 well lets say A1 and A2 perform in very harsh arctic conditions like -30 degrees Celsius and worse than that?

Bill
12 Mar 05,, 20:57
With the right lubricant, it's fine.

sniperdude411
13 Mar 05,, 16:27
"Accuracy definately favors the US rifle. Groupings mentioned earlier I have yet to get with my rifle. It is not accurate."
I've heard the AK's accuracy is about 4-6MOA, ahile the m16 is about 1.5.

Am I right or misinformed?

Bill
14 Mar 05,, 08:10
That's about right.

lemontree
14 Mar 05,, 09:40
Accuracy definately favors the US rifle. Groupings mentioned earlier I have yet to get with my rifle. It is not accurate.
The reason is that due to a removable body cover (of the breech assembly) of the AK series, it is forced to have an open sight, in preference of an aperture sight.
The open sight is the most inaccurate type of weapon sight system. If a scope is used on the AK, the grouping pattern improves remarkably.

sniperdude411
15 Mar 05,, 18:00
The reason is that due to a removable body cover (of the breech assembly) of the AK series, it is forced to have an open sight, in preference of an aperture sight.
The open sight is the most inaccurate type of weapon sight system. If a scope is used on the AK, the grouping pattern improves remarkably.

So you're saying how loose the parts are in the AK-74 somehow doesn't affect the accuracy of the gun?

Bill
15 Mar 05,, 18:23
No, he's saying the very poor sites are the primary factor.

I don't know if i agree the sites are the main factor, but i agree wholeheartedly with Lemon in that they well and truly suck.

I hate open sites.

bonehead
15 Mar 05,, 20:47
The groups with my SAR3 are much tighter when I use a scope. That is also true for every one of my rifles. Maybe when I get my eyes lasered that will change.

sniperdude411
16 Mar 05,, 00:06
I don't know if i agree the sites are the main factor, but i agree wholeheartedly with Lemon in that they well and truly suck.

Definitely. I think they really just need a face-lift. Change the whole exterior, put rails on it, and it would look WAY better.

Terran empire
16 Mar 05,, 11:28
Definitely. I think they really just need a face-lift. Change the whole exterior, put rails on it, and it would look WAY better.
Oh i don't know about looks but sound man you have too consider sound. I think this is the Best AK accessory on the market ever (http://www.audiobooksforfree.com/kalashnikov/Ak-mp3.asp) :biggrin:

lemontree
17 Mar 05,, 04:58
Oh i don't know about looks but sound man you have too consider sound. I think this is the Best AK accessory on the market ever (http://www.audiobooksforfree.com/kalashnikov/Ak-mp3.asp) :biggrin:
I agree. :biggrin:

leib10
21 Mar 05,, 01:11
The AK-74 round is also superior to the .223 for wounding potential. This is because it is a dum-dum bullet. It may be outlawed by the Geneva Convention, but the Russians do not have a history of caring for that document... ;)

sniperdude411
21 Mar 05,, 03:11
I agree. I realy don't think that there should be bans for ammunition. we should be allowed to take-care of the enemy as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Stupid bureaucratic crap.

lemontree
21 Mar 05,, 05:21
...it is a dum-dum bullet.
One can turn a normal ball round into a 'dum-dum' by just etching a X mark on the tip of the bullet. Once it strikes bone it will shatter into a couple of pieces. It happens better with a 9mm round though.

leib10
21 Mar 05,, 05:22
The 5.45x39 round actually has an air cavity inside the bullet, if I'm not mistaken.

Bill
21 Mar 05,, 05:55
The 5.56 NATO becomes unstable in soft tissue, so in effect, it is a 'dum-dum'.

This is because the steel core in the M855 cartridge is set aft of the projectile's CG.

leib10
21 Mar 05,, 19:43
That's true. For some reason though, people rave about the 5.45's killing power and whine about the 5.56's lack of it.

Bill
21 Mar 05,, 20:09
The grass is always greener on the other side.

sniperdude411
21 Mar 05,, 21:29
The 5.45x39 round actually has an air cavity inside the bullet, if I'm not mistaken.
At a bit shorter ranges, the 5.45 does have more killing power (not much at all though) because of its air pocket and its boat tail design, but at ranges greater than 150 yards, the 5.56 is more effective, not to mention much more accurate.
The 5.56 also has a greater capacity (meaning you can fit more cartridges in a smaller space).

*Yes, my 100th post!*

leib10
23 Mar 05,, 16:35
Loading AK74 mags can be a pain thanks to the long, pointed projectile.

sniperdude411
23 Mar 05,, 22:14
Can't wait 'till I'm 18... be loading all the mags I want... and shooting them off.
*drools*

leib10
23 Mar 05,, 22:34
It's not as much fun as you'd think... you spend half your time loading them, the other half shooting them.

bonehead
24 Mar 05,, 04:39
Some one has to pay for all those toys and ammo as well.

leib10
24 Mar 05,, 05:57
Yes, blasting away tends to get expensive, so I load my magazines with only 3 or 4 rounds. The ammo doesn't go nearly as fast that way!

lemontree
24 Mar 05,, 06:05
It's not as much fun as you'd think... you spend half your time loading them, the other half shooting them.
sniperdude,
Lol...you will be spending far more time cleaning the weapon. Weapons instructors are reals brutes on the range, worse than drill instructors. Any lapses in weapons drill and your whole detail will be doing pushups in the hot sun, instead of firing down the range.
But don't let me scare you. :)

leib10
24 Mar 05,, 16:30
Ah, the value of being a civilian... :tongue:

sniperdude411
25 Mar 05,, 01:18
Don't worry about me... I may forget to clean my teeth, but never my guns...
BTW, nayone seen non-stock remington 597 mags anywhere? I'm kind of annoyed by the magazine. It gets stuck alot, so itreally irritates me sometimes.
Oh, and .22 rounds are dirt-cheap , even cheaper than paintballs. And you don't use as much. Maybe 100 rounds per hour of operation.

leib10
27 Mar 05,, 05:49
True, .22's are fun and cheap. But once you get into some assault rifles with their far more expensive bullets, not only are they more fun, but also more expensive.

Metak
04 Apr 05,, 00:47
Zastava's AK version is the most superior of all AK's out there. This is because:
The Yugo AKM's instead of the having the standard 1 mm thick AKM style receiver, they utilize a reinforced RPK receiver (which has a thickness of 1.5 mm). The Yugo AK's also have a receiver cover lock type system which is similar in regards(BTW, similar NOT exact) to the one found on SKS rifles, the lock system on the Yugo guns is a spring loaded pin which locks the recoil spring assembly in place, the pin must be depressed before removal of the receiver cover. The M70's have a blued finish w/ a polished steel ("left in the white") bolt carrier. The M70B1 rifles have scope rails mounted on the left side of the receiver, some of the AB2 rifles can be found with scope rails mounted as well but this is semi rare.
This gives them superior accuracy to any other AK-47 style rifle, we also put some nice aesthetic features on our rifles:
The stock sets found on the Yugo AK rifles are made out of Teakwood, which makes for a beautiful stock. The Yugoslavian AKM's have quite a few unique features, one of these unique features being the elongated handguards. The elongated handguards help in protecting the gastube from dents and dings better than the original AK style handguards (which leave most of the gas tube unprotected). The buttstock is patterned after the AKM style straight butt, minus the cleaning kit compartment as the B1 rifles have a 1/2" rubber recoil pad fitted on the butt insted of having the steel butt plate w. cleaning kit compartment, the buttstock also lacks a sling swivel as the Yugoslavs mounted it on the receiver like on the AK-53/54 rifles (or third model AK-47). The pistol grip on these rifles are the same as found on the Yugoslavian M76 "sniper" rifle. The AB2 rifles have an AKM style straight open sheet metal underfolding stock.These rifles like many of the Yugoslav AK variants have flip up front and rear night sights, this is a very neat feature.
I carried this rifle around for through some pretty scary places like Vukovar in Croatia and Presevo Valley in Kosovo and it NEVER failed me once.

sniperdude411
04 Apr 05,, 03:03
True, .22's are fun and cheap. But once you get into some assault rifles with their far more expensive bullets, not only are they more fun, but also more expensive.

They're not epensive when the Army is paying for them.

leib10
04 Apr 05,, 05:47
True, but then again, you only have to clean your weapon to your satisfaction and yours only when you're a civilian. ;)

sniperdude411
05 Apr 05,, 02:40
Is extremely thoroughly cleaning your gun bad for it? For some reason I love cleaning guns. Maybe it's because I like taking things apart.

leib10
05 Apr 05,, 04:02
Oh, I love handling them, and I like cleaning them, but not to the point where they don't have one speck of cordite residue or dust on them. You should see the inside of my AK's receiver...

http://img135.exs.cx/img135/9967/p10100473ii.jpg

sniperdude411
06 Apr 05,, 21:50
As long as it doesn't malfunction.

leib10
06 Apr 05,, 22:10
I've fired about 5000 rounds through my AK-47. It's jammed perhaps three times.

sniperdude411
07 Apr 05,, 03:09
That's actually kinda bad, although with your condition of the gun, it's not horrible.
I'f haerd of someone leaving an AK-47 in a locker for 3 moths, took it out, loaded it, kicked the bolt back open (it was rusted shut), and fired it without jamming.

leib10
07 Apr 05,, 03:37
Which is more than what you can say for an M16. I've shot perhaps 1000 rounds out of my M4, and it's jammed at least 15 times.

Bill
07 Apr 05,, 04:41
My M-16A2(actually i was issued two of them, one at basic, one at my unit) never jammed a single time with live ammunition that i can recall. I probably fired about 2000rds through them in a span of about a year. My M-16A1 was a piece of junk though. Thankfully my unit transitioned to the A2 right after i got there. I'd rather carry a .30-30 lever action into combat than an M-16A1.

Franco Lolan
07 Apr 05,, 04:55
Marek, interesting comments concerning the rifle, sounds beautiful, and Croatia and Kosovo. May I ask when and what you were doing there?

sniperdude411
09 Apr 05,, 04:41
"I'd rather carry a .30-30 lever action into combat than an M-16A1."
I feel sorry for those in early-mid Veitnam. They said it would jam usually once every 4-10 shots.

Metak
09 Apr 05,, 04:51
Marek, interesting comments concerning the rifle, sounds beautiful, and Croatia and Kosovo. May I ask when and what you were doing there?
I was with the JNA in Croatia, and I was part of an volunteer unit compromised of Serb,Russian and some gypsie volunteers in Kosovo.

leib10
09 Apr 05,, 16:35
"I'd rather carry a .30-30 lever action into combat than an M-16A1."
I feel sorry for those in early-mid Veitnam. They said it would jam usually once every 4-10 shots.

That's because the M16 was originally sold as a "self-cleaning weapon" and cleaning kits weren't even issued initially.

sniperdude411
09 Apr 05,, 17:45
And because of the use of dirty-burning stick powder, and the lack of chrome-plated inner parts.

leib10
24 Aug 05,, 22:59
Here's my newest toy. I finally received a new one after they lost my old one after being sent in for repairs.

http://207.176.137.9/picpost/AKrifle/SidefolderAK74S.jpg

lemontree
25 Aug 05,, 05:17
Here's my newest toy. I finally received a new one after they lost my old one after being sent in for repairs.

Lucky man! :)

sniperdude411
25 Aug 05,, 17:57
What are the requirements to buy a class-3 weapon?
I'm interested in the M240-B at impactguns.com...

bonehead
26 Aug 05,, 01:53
What are the requirements to buy a class-3 weapon?
I'm interested in the M240-B at impactguns.com...

Your local regulations may be different. Usually all it takes is money, more money, a class 3 license, possible age restrictions (18 or 21), clean record, and....did I say money?. If you are successful, make friends with an ammo salesman and someone who can get you a new barrel every now and then.

ak-dave
26 Aug 05,, 04:45
Check out the ATF’s State Laws and Published Ordinances - Firearms (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/statelaws/25thedition/index.htm) pamphlet. Pennsylvania. (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/statelaws/25thedition/pennsylvania.pdf) Usually the hardest part is getting your local LEO to sign-off on the application forms.


Leibstandarte,

Nice AK-74. Is it an Ohio Rapid Fire build? Not good that they ‘lost’ your rifle, ATF frowns on that. Have you been out to shoot it yet? Should give us a range report after you shoot. Still want to get a 74, would prefer to build myself rather than buy. Lead-in plug for what I’ve completed so far and shamelessly using Joeken (http://207.176.137.9/shop/index.asp) images to illustrate.

http://207.176.137.9/picpost/Main_Pics/akcat/rifles/AMD65.jpg
http://207.176.137.9/picpost/AKrifle/RomanAKMS.jpg
http://207.176.137.9/picpost/AKrifle/AKPolishS.jpg
http://207.176.137.9/picpost/AKrifle/RussianAKM.jpg

Looking at the picture your dirty AK (http://img135.exs.cx/img135/9967/p10100473ii.jpg) do I get to scold you for the loaded magazine in the weapon when you disassemble it? BTW that is not near being dirty, just a dusting from a light day of shooting. :biggrin: :biggrin:

leib10
26 Aug 05,, 05:20
Yes, you may scold me. Yes, it is an Ohio Rapid fire AK74 with folding stock. Having already fired the AK74, I can say (like most others) that it combines all the best features of the AK47 with a smaller cartridge, which gives it accuracy capable of matching that of my M4's. The very effective muzzle brake brings recoil to almost nothing (when my old one would fire several rounds at a time, it was very controllable and accurate), although the blast is loud. It's a great gun if you're willing to shell out at least $500 for it (they just gave it to me on account that they lost my old one). One more thing- don't buy from Joeken. They have some pretty poor customer service if something goes wrong. It took us a year and a half to finally receive a new AK74 after sending the old one in.

sniperdude411
26 Aug 05,, 18:04
Check out the ATF’s State Laws and Published Ordinances - Firearms (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/statelaws/25thedition/index.htm) pamphlet. Pennsylvania. (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/statelaws/25thedition/pennsylvania.pdf) Usually the hardest part is getting your local LEO to sign-off on the application forms.


Leibstandarte,

Nice AK-74. Is it an Ohio Rapid Fire build? Not good that they ‘lost’ your rifle, ATF frowns on that. Have you been out to shoot it yet? Should give us a range report after you shoot. Still want to get a 74, would prefer to build myself rather than buy. Lead-in plug for what I’ve completed so far and shamelessly using Joeken (http://207.176.137.9/shop/index.asp) images to illustrate.

Looking at the picture your dirty AK (http://img135.exs.cx/img135/9967/p10100473ii.jpg) do I get to scold you for the loaded magazine in the weapon when you disassemble it? BTW that is not near being dirty, just a dusting from a light day of shooting. :biggrin: :biggrin:

Wow... that's really confusing to get a license; I think I'll just stick to "fixed" civvie guns and the military for a while.

ak-dave
30 Aug 05,, 02:33
I know all about 'JOKE-en', customer service is NOT in their vocabulary. Advertise and sell things that are not in stock. People having a real hard time getting things. I’m looking to change a couple screw builds to rivets and Joken is about the only place with good rivets sets. K-VAR is out of about everything now days. :mad: :frown:

leib10
30 Aug 05,, 03:44
They're really inefficient and disorganized. A recent move to a different location did not help things, and they genuinely don't seem to care. I'm not dealing with them ever again.

sniperdude411
30 Aug 05,, 17:49
I'll just stick to my local gun shop.
Bass Pro Shop in Harrisburg has DEs in .44 and .50 for $1200.

leib10
31 Aug 05,, 00:46
I would never spend that much on any weapon, let alone a handgun.

Bill
31 Aug 05,, 04:15
I have about that much into my S&W custom 9mm.

LOL, it's like a laser.

leib10
31 Aug 05,, 05:04
Ah, but then again you have a need for a weapon that accurate. I don't. The only gun I need to trust my life with is my USP, and the distances I'm shooting at are not great enough to justify the need for such pinpoint accuracy.

Bill
31 Aug 05,, 05:15
True, as afterall, your life only depends on it... ;)

I want EVERY possible 'unfair' advantadge i can get.

That means porting, nightsights, match grade barrel, top end +P+ JHP ammunition, and lots of training and practice.

leib10
31 Aug 05,, 05:18
The only thing I have that's added is the ammo and the 13 round magazine. The ammo is the very mean-sounding Pow'R Ball ammo by Cor-Bon. I don't have that much practice with it, but I can guarantee headshots at the ranges I might be shooting at (10 yards) with lots of light and body shots in near darkness. It's enough to make me sleep well at night. ;)

sniperdude411
01 Sep 05,, 17:42
True, as afterall, your life only depends on it... ;)

I want EVERY possible 'unfair' advantadge i can get.

That means porting, nightsights, match grade barrel, top end +P+ JHP ammunition, and lots of training and practice.

You don't use Glaser Safety slugs?

Bill
01 Sep 05,, 17:48
Nope, i use cor bon 115gr +P JHPs.

thesaint
01 Sep 05,, 18:17
Nope, i use cor bon 115gr +P JHPs.

Sniper, you must know this:

do JHP have any clear disadvantage compared to FMJ for sniping ? I mean their trajectory at long ranges.
tnx

Bill
01 Sep 05,, 20:40
The M-852 is the most accurate 7.62NATO cartridge in the US inventory.

It's a JHP.

It is also legal for combat use.

As far as 'a general rule', it really depends on the individual design of the projectile, and it's overall BC. For pistols, generally, yes, they are less accurate due to the very large cavity in the nose. Like a big air brake.

sniperdude411
04 Sep 05,, 22:33
Anyone, what's the best type of projectile (in .308) you can get for not a lot of money that gives you the best killing power to up to 300 yards?
I have (or will in about 2-6 weeks; it's getting shipped soon) a break-action .308.
What's the best military surplus ammo you can find online or at a Bass Pro shop? If online, could you please link me to it, or at least tell me where it is?

davechng
13 Sep 05,, 15:59
SNiper dude 411

Surplus 308 would be your choice if you want good price ... The best surplus that has very good accuracy is the Hirtenberger , Australian and German DAG 7.62x51 NATO! too bad they are all gone. 2nd would be the Surplus Portugese and the British Radway green ... again! these are getting hard to get too!

Sportsmandguide still have link portugese ammo now ! I heard good things about these from the FAL forums!

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=217612

They also have the Pakistan L2A2 7.62x51mm ! they are loaded similar to the British Radway Green !

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=202565

Price is still affordable.


DaveC

sniperdude411
13 Sep 05,, 17:50
Oh hey, I got Pakistani ammo!
Either sometime in early october (probably not), or before thanksgiving, I'll be able to shoot my new baby.
It may not be awesome, but hey, I'm 14, and I payed for it all.

leib10
18 Sep 05,, 20:47
Finally went out and shot my AK74. When I received it, it was so new that it had only been fired probably a few times at the factory. It took a lot of oil and working the action to get it relatively smooth. When I took it out there, I discovered just how bad of a cheek rest the folding buttstock is. It is not stable and is not well placed. It is of the Romanian type, which is not what Joeken said they would give. I was expecting the Russian type of stock, but once again Joeken screwed me. The furniture was very ugly and mismatched, but that's easily rectified. The damned thing had a hair trigger, something not usually found in assault rifles. It must be said that it didn't jam once in 200 rounds fired. Accuracy was poor, but I think that when I replace the flimsy folding stock with a conventional one and work it in more the thing will shoot straighter.

http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ak747qd.jpg

sniperdude411
19 Sep 05,, 18:04
Hey, if you don't want to, go ahead and give it to me...

davechng
19 Sep 05,, 19:36
Finally went out and shot my AK74. When I received it, it was so new that it had only been fired probably a few times at the factory. It took a lot of oil and working the action to get it relatively smooth. When I took it out there, I discovered just how bad of a cheek rest the folding buttstock is. It is not stable and is not well placed. It is of the Romanian type, which is not what Joeken said they would give. I was expecting the Russian type of stock, but once again Joeken screwed me. The furniture was very ugly and mismatched, but that's easily rectified. The damned thing had a hair trigger, something not usually found in assault rifles. It must be said that it didn't jam once in 200 rounds fired. Accuracy was poor, but I think that when I replace the flimsy folding stock with a conventional one and work it in more the thing will shoot straighter.

http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ak747qd.jpg


HI leibstandarte10

Looks like you have a POlish WZ88 Tantal built up. thats the way it is setup for the Polish Army before they retired them all when they join NATO. NOw they are using the Beyrl. Anyway! am suprise it is not accurate. You may want to use different ammo , any my point is, I have this Rommaniun early Ak74 import, CUR2, and it would shoot 2 to 3" group at 100 yds with Banual 59 grain FMJ! but when using Wolf 60 grain FMJ or the Ulayanovsk 70 grain FMJ! the group size open to 5" to 6 "! Maybe that is the problem! I had the standard stock on mine!

DaveC!

leib10
19 Sep 05,, 22:04
I was thinking that it also does not like the ammo, which is Wolf.

It turns out that it is a Tantal. I'm having trouble removing the folding stock. I can get one screw out, but there must be something else that's holding it in place. Any ideas?

davechng
20 Sep 05,, 15:48
I was thinking that it also does not like the ammo, which is Wolf.

It turns out that it is a Tantal. I'm having trouble removing the folding stock. I can get one screw out, but there must be something else that's holding it in place. Any ideas?

the Tantal folding stock looks similar to the East German and ROmmaniun ! So! It is a screw in the back, and slowly tap the stock out! Somtimes if the design of the folder has a lower lip, may have to remove the pistol grip and hammer to ease the removal!

DaveC

sniperdude411
20 Sep 05,, 17:48
I'd disassemble the whole thing, see how it works, then fix the stock.

I love seeing how things work.

leib10
22 Sep 05,, 23:02
That thing is in there TIGHT! I've pounded on it with all sorts of tools and tried to pry it apart from the receiver with a chisel. I'm going to have to take it to a gunsmith because something else must be holding that thing in there.

sniperdude411
27 Sep 05,, 16:45
That's why I just take the whole thing apart until I get the stock off.
But it almost always seems that every time I take something apart, I somehow get it together with exactly one screw left.

leib10
15 Nov 05,, 04:00
As of late, I've gotten used to the wierd stock on my Tantal, and I've got to say the accuracy matches that of the DPMS Panther Lite carbine at distances of up to 300 yards. I'm very pleased with the weapon now, except for the strangely colored furniture.

sniperdude411
17 Nov 05,, 17:50
As of late, I've gotten used to the wierd stock on my Tantal, and I've got to say the accuracy matches that of the DPMS Panther Lite carbine at distances of up to 300 yards. I'm very pleased with the weapon now, except for the strangely colored furniture.

Well that's nice.
I can't wait till I can legally buy my own guns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!