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Ray
07 Sep 06,, 22:51
Turkey turning cool to NATO


By Judy Dempsey International Herald Tribune

Published: September 6, 2006
BERLIN Turkey, a secular Muslim country that was once a fervent supporter of NATO and an enthusiastic applicant to the European Union, has increasingly cooled toward its American and European allies while warming toward Iran, a new international survey confirms.

Transatlantic Trends, an annual survey of European and American public opinion published Wednesday by the German Marshall Fund of the United States, shows a striking shift in attitudes within Turkey, a key member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

Turkey is of major strategic importance for NATO. During the Cold War, it was the West's most important southern security flank in Europe, as well as a bulwark against the Soviet Union.

Now, with growing instability in its immediate neighborhood, including the Caucasus, the uncertainty over Iran's nuclear intentions and the sectarian fighting in Iraq, Turkey remains a crucial member of the 26-member alliance.

At the same time of declining support from Turkey, support for NATO has dropped sharply among Europeans, particularly in countries once considered the staunchest supporters of the defense organization: Germany, Italy and Poland, as well as Turkey.

These two trends - changing attitudes among Turks and declining support for NATO - have accelerated since the terrorist attacks on the United States five years ago and the subsequent U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

Over all, the survey report said, "five years after Sept. 11, 2001, the image of the United States in the eyes of the world has not recovered from its steep decline after the war in Iraq."

Daniel Fried, the U.S. assistant secretary of state for European affairs, countered that the report also showed how the United States and Europe shared a common assessment about the threats they faced.

"Political differences do exist and they may be a byproduct of the debate about Iraq," said Fried, who was in Berlin for the publication of the report. "Despite that, the U.S. and Europe have a very firm basis on which to agree."

This seemed to be the case regarding the dispute with Iran over its nuclear program. Large majorities of Europeans (84 percent) and Americans (79 percent) feel that the dispute should be resolved via diplomacy, the survey found. If diplomacy failed, however, 53 percent of Americans and 45 percent of Europeans would support military action to keep Iran from acquiring nuclear arms.

In Turkey, the survey found that on a 100-point "thermometer" scale, Turkish "warmth" toward the United States declined to 20 degrees from 28 degrees from 2004 to 2006, while Turkish warmth toward Iran increased to 43 degrees from 34 over the same period.

Warmth toward the EU was 45 degrees, down from 52 two years ago. Warm feelings were far lower toward certain European countries, with 31 degrees for Spain, 30 for Italy, and 25 for Britain and France, apparently because they are perceived as anti-Turkish. Germany, with many residents of Turkish descent, registered 44 degrees.

Further, while a majority in Turkey continue to see EU membership as a good thing, positive feelings have plummeted, from 73 percent in 2004 to 54 percent this year.

The poll found that support for NATO, the U.S.-led military alliance that has been the linchpin of the trans- Atlantic relationship for more than half a century, has fallen in the European countries surveyed from 69 percent in 2002 to 55 percent in 2006.

The drop was steepest in Germany, with support falling from 74 percent to 56 percent over the four years. In 2003, Germany, along with France, Belgium, and Luxembourg, opposed a U.S. request for NATO to provide support during the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

Even more revealing are the findings for Poland, which in 1999 became one of the first former Warsaw Pact countries to join the alliance and which almost immediately supported the U.S decision to invade Iraq and send troops. Support among Poles for NATO plummeted from 64 percent in 2002 to 48 percent in 2006.

"NATO is no longer seen as providing a security umbrella, which it used to do during the Cold War," said Kai-Olaf Lang, an expert on Poland at the German Institute for International and Security Affairs in Berlin.

As support for NATO declines, a majority of Europeans, 55 percent, say they want a more independent approach to security and diplomatic affairs, up from 50 percent in 2004. There is also strong support - 65 percent - for an EU foreign minister.

In Turkey, which joined NATO in 1952, support declined from 53 percent in 2004 to 44 percent in 2006.

Analysts say Turkey's growing disenchantment stems from the months leading up to the war against Iraq. Turkey asked NATO to provide support in case of an attack by Iraq, but several NATO countries refused.

Fried conceded that Turkey's relations with NATO had "soured in 2003," but asked how deep the trend was.

At present, NATO is increasingly preoccupied with its future role in fighting terrorism while remaining a collective defense alliance. These issues will dominate a NATO summit meeting in Riga, the Latvian capital, in November.

The annual poll, was carried out in the United States and 12 European countries: Britain, Bulgaria, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Spain and Turkey. About 1,000 people were surveyed in each country between June 6 and 24. The margin of sampling error was plus or minus 3 percentage points.


BERLIN Turkey, a secular Muslim country that was once a fervent supporter of NATO and an enthusiastic applicant to the European Union, has increasingly cooled toward its American and European allies while warming toward Iran, a new international survey confirms.

Transatlantic Trends, an annual survey of European and American public opinion published Wednesday by the German Marshall Fund of the United States, shows a striking shift in attitudes within Turkey, a key member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

Turkey is of major strategic importance for NATO. During the Cold War, it was the West's most important southern security flank in Europe, as well as a bulwark against the Soviet Union.

Now, with growing instability in its immediate neighborhood, including the Caucasus, the uncertainty over Iran's nuclear intentions and the sectarian fighting in Iraq, Turkey remains a crucial member of the 26-member alliance.

At the same time of declining support from Turkey, support for NATO has dropped sharply among Europeans, particularly in countries once considered the staunchest supporters of the defense organization: Germany, Italy and Poland, as well as Turkey.

These two trends - changing attitudes among Turks and declining support for NATO - have accelerated since the terrorist attacks on the United States five years ago and the subsequent U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

Over all, the survey report said, "five years after Sept. 11, 2001, the image of the United States in the eyes of the world has not recovered from its steep decline after the war in Iraq."

Daniel Fried, the U.S. assistant secretary of state for European affairs, countered that the report also showed how the United States and Europe shared a common assessment about the threats they faced.

"Political differences do exist and they may be a byproduct of the debate about Iraq," said Fried, who was in Berlin for the publication of the report. "Despite that, the U.S. and Europe have a very firm basis on which to agree."

This seemed to be the case regarding the dispute with Iran over its nuclear program. Large majorities of Europeans (84 percent) and Americans (79 percent) feel that the dispute should be resolved via diplomacy, the survey found. If diplomacy failed, however, 53 percent of Americans and 45 percent of Europeans would support military action to keep Iran from acquiring nuclear arms.

In Turkey, the survey found that on a 100-point "thermometer" scale, Turkish "warmth" toward the United States declined to 20 degrees from 28 degrees from 2004 to 2006, while Turkish warmth toward Iran increased to 43 degrees from 34 over the same period.

Warmth toward the EU was 45 degrees, down from 52 two years ago. Warm feelings were far lower toward certain European countries, with 31 degrees for Spain, 30 for Italy, and 25 for Britain and France, apparently because they are perceived as anti-Turkish. Germany, with many residents of Turkish descent, registered 44 degrees.

Further, while a majority in Turkey continue to see EU membership as a good thing, positive feelings have plummeted, from 73 percent in 2004 to 54 percent this year.

The poll found that support for NATO, the U.S.-led military alliance that has been the linchpin of the trans- Atlantic relationship for more than half a century, has fallen in the European countries surveyed from 69 percent in 2002 to 55 percent in 2006.

The drop was steepest in Germany, with support falling from 74 percent to 56 percent over the four years. In 2003, Germany, along with France, Belgium, and Luxembourg, opposed a U.S. request for NATO to provide support during the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

Even more revealing are the findings for Poland, which in 1999 became one of the first former Warsaw Pact countries to join the alliance and which almost immediately supported the U.S decision to invade Iraq and send troops. Support among Poles for NATO plummeted from 64 percent in 2002 to 48 percent in 2006.

"NATO is no longer seen as providing a security umbrella, which it used to do during the Cold War," said Kai-Olaf Lang, an expert on Poland at the German Institute for International and Security Affairs in Berlin.

As support for NATO declines, a majority of Europeans, 55 percent, say they want a more independent approach to security and diplomatic affairs, up from 50 percent in 2004. There is also strong support - 65 percent - for an EU foreign minister.

In Turkey, which joined NATO in 1952, support declined from 53 percent in 2004 to 44 percent in 2006.

Analysts say Turkey's growing disenchantment stems from the months leading up to the war against Iraq. Turkey asked NATO to provide support in case of an attack by Iraq, but several NATO countries refused.

Fried conceded that Turkey's relations with NATO had "soured in 2003," but asked how deep the trend was.

At present, NATO is increasingly preoccupied with its future role in fighting terrorism while remaining a collective defense alliance. These issues will dominate a NATO summit meeting in Riga, the Latvian capital, in November.

The annual poll, was carried out in the United States and 12 European countries: Britain, Bulgaria, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Spain and Turkey. About 1,000 people were surveyed in each country between June 6 and 24. The margin of sampling error was plus or minus 3 percentage points.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/06/news/poll.php

I have purposely put this thread here since NATO members do visit this corner to check up some professionally stuff.

I would sure love to hear comments from all, especially those who have served or are serving in the NATO.

Officer of Engineers
08 Sep 06,, 03:34
I cannot see Turkey leaving NATO, Sir. As bad as things are, it is still a Big Boys Club and Turkey wants to be seen as a Big Boy.

Ray
08 Sep 06,, 14:04
How far do you think that Turkey is a bit browned off because of the hassles in getting admission in the EU as also the influence of resurgent Islam?

-{SpoonmaN}-
08 Sep 06,, 16:28
How far do you think that Turkey is a bit browned off because of the hassles in getting admission in the EU as also the influence of resurgent Islam?

Well I'd imagine it must be bugging them a lot. Undoubtedly a lot of people in Turkey would be seeing those hassles as being more about religion and ethnicity rather than human rights or governmental reforms. And I guess to a some Europeans those are compelling reasons not to allow Turkey membership, ever, which is a really bad idea since I believe they'd have a lot to contribute to the EU's strategic and military power if they could get over the human rights issues. Although, as has been pointed out on this board, a lot of Europeans countries violate free speech rules by jailing holocost denying writers. And then there's Eastern Europe. So I can figure on Turkish public opinion swinging against Europe and America but I wouldn't make too much of it, Turkey has far too much to gain from being a friend and not an enemy. And I don't see what any country without an energy consumption issue would have to gain from being friends with Iran, they just happen to be doing nicely in the public relations field after they helped Hezbollah 'beat' Israel, and with their bluster about standing up to the Americans.

Ray
08 Sep 06,, 16:44
Spurned by the West, Turkey looks eastward

Suat Kiniklioglu International Herald Tribune

Published: September 7, 2006

ANKARA In 2002, when Tuncer Kilinc, the secretary general of Turkey's powerful National Security Council, said that the country should abandon its efforts to become a member of the European Union and turn toward its regional neighbors Russia and Iran, few Turks took him seriously.

Four years later, Kilinc's proposition does not look so far-fetched. According to the Transatlantic Trends 2006 survey co-sponsored by the German Marshall Fund of the United States, Turks feel twice as warm toward Iran as they do toward the United States. Equally, Turkish feelings toward the EU have experienced sharp declines.

So what has happened in the last four years to precipitate such a dramatic turnaround in Turkish public perceptions? After all, Iran is a Shiite country that is run by Islamic law and has little in common with Turkey's predominantly Sunni democracy.

The primary reason behind the sea- change is the post-9/11, "with-us-or- against-us" environment and the trauma inflicted on Turkey by the war in Iraq. In addition, the global rise of identity politics, most aptly signified by the Danish cartoon crisis and increasing instability around Turkey's borders, have shaken traditionally secular Turks.

The United States invaded Iraq despite strong Turkish opposition at a time when Turkey was about to win the peace with its Kurdish citizens. Then the Turkish Parliament refused to grant the United States the right to invade Iraq from the north, which left bad feelings at the Pentagon.

As events have confirmed Turkey's grave misgivings about the war, Turks believe the United States has not taken sufficient care to address their security concerns. Indeed, over the last six months, more Turkish soldiers have been killed by the separatist Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, than Americans by Iraqi insurgents. Yet the Pentagon has resisted calls to act against the PKK, partly because of grudges held against Turkey.

Turkey's relationship with the EU has also worsened since December 2004. Since the EU decided to start accession negotiations, Europeans have released an unrelenting barrage of discomfort with potential Turkish membership.

Relations also remain strained over the inability of the EU to find a constructive approach to the Cyprus issue, despite repeated assurances that the isolation of Turkish Cyprus would be lifted.

Many Turks note that Europeans are eager to engage Turkey on energy security, immigration and integration, or peacekeeping forces in Lebanon, but fail to involve Turks when the future of Europe is debated.

While Turkey's neighborhood becomes more dangerous and its strategic value to the West increases, it is often neglected as a partner. Not surprisingly, Turkish support for EU membership has dropped from 73 percent in 2004 to 54 percent in 2006, according to the Transatlantic Trends survey.

In the past, Turkey could usually rely on the United States when relations with the EU were strained. But this link is now also frayed.

Consequently, silently yet effectively, Turkey is redefining its foreign-policy orientation in view of its newly discovered strategic depth.

The Turkish response to this situation is very much linked to its domestic politics. The rise of the Justice and Development Party in 2002 brought into office a cadre that is willing to engage more directly with the Middle East and the wider Islamic world.

The war in Iraq, Western tensions with Syria and Iran and the war in Lebanon provided ample opportunity for Turkish decision makers to express their new foreign-policy outlook.

Formally, Turkey remains in the Western camp, but it is increasingly the odd man out. In contrast, Turkey's relations with Russia have developed exponentially. Relations with Iran are also improving. Tehran provides assistance to Ankara's efforts to fight the PKK and is a significant gas supplier.

While it is still too early to talk about a major shift in Turkey, all the ingredients for a realignment are there. José Manuel Barroso, the European Commission president, recently warned that Europe needs to be very careful about Turkey's gravitating strategic role on Europe's borders.

It would be highly desirable if other European leaders acquired similar wisdom. Otherwise there will be little value in blaming each other when we start asking, "Who lost Turkey?"

Suat Kiniklioglu is director of the Ankara office of the German Marshall Fund of the United States.


http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/07/opinion/edsuat.php

The reasons for Turkey's disillusionment apparently is genuine.

The EU imbroglio has not been addressed and the US has not really cared about the security concerns of Turkey.

In case, Turkey joins the Russian camp, it will have a serious repercussion because Turkey controls the Straits of Bosporus and the CAR oilfields are in the Caspian where in either flanks will become Russian controlled.

EU and the US will have to think very hard.

-{SpoonmaN}-
09 Sep 06,, 04:49
The reasons for Turkey's disillusionment apparently is genuine.

The EU imbroglio has not been addressed and the US has not really cared about the security concerns of Turkey.

In case, Turkey joins the Russian camp, it will have a serious repercussion because Turkey controls the Straits of Bosporus and the CAR oilfields are in the Caspian where in either flanks will become Russian controlled.

EU and the US will have to think very hard.

My point exactly, Europe would do well to ignore the idiotic predjudices of their far-right minority and see Turkey for what it is: a very valuable place to have on their side. As for the USA, Turkey is far better to be a friend than an enemy, since the USA needs all the non-totalitarian friends it can get in the Middle-East these days.

smilingassassin
09 Sep 06,, 23:09
Hell even some of the EU members have become disallusioned about the whole EU idea. Too many cooks in the kitchen spoiling the recipe.

-{SpoonmaN}-
10 Sep 06,, 11:39
Hell even some of the EU members have become disallusioned about the whole EU idea. Too many cooks in the kitchen spoiling the recipe.

Indeed, and they've pushed for too much integration too fast. If Europe had a common enemy or something along those lines people would be willing to compromise, but right now all they're focusing on is the few things they'll lose in face of the many things they stand to gain from a proper union.
I guess this means they don't mind letting America and China run the world in the future.

reve893
16 Aug 08,, 01:41
Well they all sorta have a new common enemy.

zraver
16 Aug 08,, 02:03
kill it kill it, its an undead thread!

bolo121
16 Aug 08,, 04:58
aye, let us have no truck with fowl necromancie

smilingassassin
16 Aug 08,, 05:19
"bring out yer dead!"

turki_de
19 Aug 08,, 13:17
Turkey is not abandoning the West, it is abandoning the whole world. It's aim is to become fully independent in its foreign policy. It's aim is to become an independent and active player in world affairs. At the epicentre of its new foreign policy is Turkish interests, not NATO's, not Russian nor Chinese. To achieve this Turkey needs to put itself at an equal distance between the EU, the US and Russia. The currents events in Georgia also shows this. Turkey has not allowed NATO or US ships to cross the Straits into the Black sea. At the same time it also has also told Russia not to target its interests in Georgia such as the BTC pipeline.

Current Military procurement also supports this notion. Just look at some of the current multi-billion dollar purchases, the Turkish Armed Forces have made. Surely, this procurement is not for protection from Greece. This merely shows that Turkey will not rely on anyone else:


6 x AIP Submarines
To be co-produced with HDW-MFI of Germany and Turkish Naval Shipyards/ASELSAN.
"Turkish industrial participation in the project will be worth around 80 percent of the total value of the deal", Defense Minister Vecdi Gönül (Turkey’s advanced submarine project goes to German companies (http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=148267&bolum=102))
The subs will also have sub-harpoon missile.

Retro-fitting of AIP propulsions for Turkey's fleet of Type 209
The Turkish Civilian Procurement Department (SSM) is negotiating for the indegenous (in cooperation with HDW of Germany) retrofiting of AIP propulsion systems into Turkey's fleet of 14 Type 209 subs.

The S-400 missile defence system to Turkey
Although, the tender is not complete, the winner is easily predictable. Russia is offering technology transfer, the US and Israel is not. Turkish procurement policy is for the maximisation of indegenous input.
Press TV - Russia renews missile offer to Turkey (http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=64324&sectionid=351020602)
TURKEY PONDERS RUSSIAN MISSILE OFFER - Eurasia Daily Monitor (http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373253)

Turkey has a requirement for 4 systems initially. Then under Stage 2, Turkey requires another 4 systems however, with technology transfer and co-production. Russia is the favoured contender in the tender as Israel and the USA does not offer technology transfer.


2 more Oliver Hazard Perry Class Frigates to Turkey from USA
The USA will be transfering two more long hull version Oliver Hazard Perry class Frigates to the Turkish Navy, this summer (http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htproc/articles/20080817.aspx). This brings the number to 10, as Turkey already has 8 modernized Oliver Hazard Perry Class Frigates in its inventory (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=111717) (http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=111717).
Like the other Oliver Hazard Pery's in the Turkish Navy inventory, they will undergo extensive modernization, which includes but is not limited to the following:
New GENESIS Digital Combat Management System
SM-2 version of the Standard Missile;
8 cell Mk-41 VLS for Evolved Sea Sparrow
Enhanced air search radar and long range sonar

After modernization they will be know as the G class FFG's.
See below for further info in relation to VLS system modernization.
The Oliver Hazard Perry glass frigates will be in use until by the Turkish Navy, until the indegenous 5,500 ton TF-2020 destroyer program enters into service.


Turkey orders more MK 41 VLS system kits for its Oliver Hazard Perry Class and MEKO class Frigates
"The Government of Turkey has requested a possible sale of six MK 41 Vertical Launch System (VLS) Baseline VII tactical modules and two sets of MK 41 VLS upgrade kits to modernize two MEKO Track IIA frigates, four ex-Perry Class FFG Frigates and to upgrade two MEKO Track IIB MK-41 VLS from baseline IV to baseline VII configuration. Included with the MK 41 VLS are the ship’s fire control system upgrades to allow for Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile capability, installation and testing, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics personnel services, equipment operation and maintenance, personnel training and training equipment, support and test equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documentation, launch system software development and maintenance and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $227 million" (http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2008/Turkey_08-40.pdf) (http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2008/Turkey_08-40.pdf)

Turkey has ordered 17, S-70 B Seahawk naval warfare helicopters
The Turkish Navy has started receiving the 17 S-70 B Seahawk naval warfare helicopters it had ordered under a 2005 contract with Sikorsky Aircraft. They will be used with the modernized Frigates and MILGEM corvettes.

Turkish Tank Program
Turkey has signed for the development of Turkey's new generation MBT. North Korea will transfer MBT technology under a recent agreeement between the two countries. Turkey pushes the button for first national Tank project (http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=148872&bolum=106)
Azerbaijan May Join Turkey's New Tank Manufacturing Project, Bureaucrat (http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=242528)
Turkish National Main Battle Tank Project (http://www.ssm.gov.tr/EN/Projeler/karaaraclari/prjgrptank/Pages/MITUP__K.aspx)

Leopard 1A1/A1A4 Tanks Improvement Project
The Turkish Land forces command has commenced the indegenous modernization of it's Leopard 1A1/A1A4 Tanks. Leopard 1A1/A1A4 Tanks Improvement Project (http://www.ssm.gov.tr/EN/Projeler/karaaraclari/prjgrptank/Pages/LEOPARD1A1A1A4__K.aspx)

M60 Tank Modernization Project
The Turkish Land forces command has commenced the modernization of it's M60 MBT's to Sabra level. Project Model : Within the scope of Program, the main guns, fire control systems, power packs, tracks and some of the subsystems of the M60 tanks will be modernized by using the new sysrems. The production of 120 mm Main Gun System and 120 mm KE Ammunition in MKEK premises, production of Fire Control System (FCS) and Electrical Gun and Turret Drive System (EGTDS) in ASELSAN premises and assembly of the modernized M60 A1 tank in 2nd Main Maintenance Center Command in the frame of the workshares. The main sub-contractor is Israel Military Industries. It is believed that eventuall all 1500 M60 Tanks will undergo the Sabra level modernization once Stage 1 is complete. Stage 1 is for 170 Tanks. M60 Tank Modernization Project (http://www.ssm.gov.tr/EN/PROJELER/KARAARACLARI/PRJGRPTANK/Pages/M60A1__K.aspx)

Turkish Air Force exercises it option to modernize all its F-16 Block 30/40/50 to CCIP level
$1.1B to Upgrade Turkish F-16 fleet (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/11b-to-upgrade-turkish-f16-fleet-0469/)

rj1
22 Aug 08,, 02:41
This and the EU thing reminds me of a caustic analysis written last year I recently read that talked about "who won the Iraq War", and Turkey's role or lack of one.

(Note: the author was wondering if Cheney was a mole planted in Wyoming by the Iranians, cause we've done all their dirty work for them without them losing a single soldier.)


Turkey, America's one real ally in the Middle East, is a huge loser in this war. We slapped them in the face, gave the Kurds a base to destabilize southeastern Turkey, and helped elect the first Islamist president in what used to be a proudly secular country.

...

3) In a regional war, the big winner will be any neighboring states that can stay out of the war and work out supply contracts with the richer combatant (Thailand during Nam, Argentina in WWI, Switzerland in every war since Ur took on Ur South).

4) However, if there's an ethnic spillover, like Turkey has with the Kurds, this relationship can backfire.

THE EXILE - Who Won Iraq? - By Gary Brecher - The War Nerd (http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=8565&IBLOCK_ID=35)

turki_de
22 Aug 08,, 03:58
This and the EU thing reminds me of a caustic analysis written last year I recently read that talked about "who won the Iraq War", and Turkey's role or lack of one.

(Note: the author was wondering if Cheney was a mole planted in Wyoming by the Iranians, cause we've done all their dirty work for them without them losing a single soldier.)



THE EXILE - Who Won Iraq? - By Gary Brecher - The War Nerd (http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=8565&IBLOCK_ID=35)

This article is full of flaws and is also baseless.

By the way His Excellency Dr. Abdullah Gul, President of the Turkish Republic was elected by referendum. That is, by the Turkish people! Since, coming into office he has kept the secular tradition at the Cankaya Presidential Palace. In fact, it could be said that the Turkish Armed Forces is one of his ardent supporters these days.

Furthermore, under the AKP's government (who received 1 in every Turks vote), the Turkish Armed Forces have developed into one of the world's most capable Forces. They the AKP are the ones who initiated the F-35 partnership, MILGEM corvete project, F-100 Frigate Project, TF-2020 Destroyer project, National Tank project, TIHA UAV project, LPD Project, S-400 project and T-129 Attack heli project etc etc!

It is also the AKP who is mediating between the West and the Middle East. It is the AKP who is planning to build 5 pipelines from Turkey to Israel. Which includes Oil, gas, water, electricity and fibre optic cables. It is the AKP who has visited Israel on numerous occasions and favoured the increasing of relations. Surely, these are not the actions of radical jihadists!

Ray
22 Aug 08,, 07:31
With the advent of Russia once again as an adversary of concern, if Turkey pulls away, then the Black Sea will become Russia's backwaters and NATO allies like Georgia on the limb. Oil from CAR through Turkey will be another dream gone sour!!

If Turkey pulls away (not out!), then an important launch pad into the ME will also be denied.

Keeping Turkey in the warm and comfortable hug is also important lest it goes the Islamist ways!!

Turkey has to be kept in good humour and of that there is no doubt!

Ucar
22 Aug 08,, 08:10
This article is full of flaws and is also baseless.

By the way His Excellency Dr. Abdullah Gul, President of the Turkish Republic was elected by referendum. That is, by the Turkish people! Since, coming into office he has kept the secular tradition at the Cankaya Presidential Palace. In fact, it could be said that the Turkish Armed Forces is one of his ardent supporters these days.

Furthermore, under the AKP's government (who received 1 in every Turks vote), the Turkish Armed Forces have developed into one of the world's most capable Forces. They the AKP are the ones who initiated the F-35 partnership, MILGEM corvete project, F-100 Frigate Project, TF-2020 Destroyer project, National Tank project, TIHA UAV project, LPD Project, S-400 project and T-129 Attack heli project etc etc!

It is also the AKP who is mediating between the West and the Middle East. It is the AKP who is planning to build 5 pipelines from Turkey to Israel. Which includes Oil, gas, water, electricity and fibre optic cables. It is the AKP who has visited Israel on numerous occasions and favoured the increasing of relations. Surely, these are not the actions of radical jihadists!

Sir

There are information errors contained in your above post.

1 - The JSF project was not initiated by the AKP governments. The MOU for JSF was signed on 11 Jun 2002. AKP was not the governing party at the time.
2 - MILGEM project was launched in 1996. The decision to licence build Blohm and Voss corvettes was shelved in 2001, and it was decided to go for a domestic design. AKP again was not the governing party.
3 - The RfP for the TF-2000 project was relased in late 1999. Once again, it has nothing to do with AKP.
4- There is no S-400 project. The Air Defence projects currently underway are T-LALADMIS, T-MALADMIS and T-HALADMIS. The S-400 is a projected offer in response to the T-HALADMIS RFI.
5 - The ATAK project is the second project launched for the procurement of Assult Helicopters. You will remember that the first project which Bell Textron had won was cancelled. The procurement plans for Attack Helicopters has been going on with official projects since late 1990s and the first project was completed in 2000.
6 - TIHA UAV project YEFDED and YAFDED documents were released on 10 October 2001. The RfP was released on 27 MArch 2002, and the bids were submitted by 4 October 2002. Again AKP was not the governing party.

To summarise it shortly, Defence Procurement and Modernization projects take significant time to plan and bring to completion. The current "star" projects of Turkish Armed Forces have been going on for over 10 years now. The current AKP government is continuing a national policy that has already been decided upon a long time ago.

AKP government has made serious errors in judgement in foreign policy, and I believe you are also following how they are coming under heavy critisism in domestic circles.

S2
22 Aug 08,, 08:34
Thanks for the proper emphasis. This is a proposal, it appears. Evidently, even Russian forces have not yet been equipped with this system. Doesn't mean, of course, that you can't be first.

If so, it'd STILL be really cool if we could have a teeny, weenie peek at the first opportunity. :)

turki_de
23 Aug 08,, 04:47
Sir

There are information errors contained in your above post.

1 - The JSF project was not initiated by the AKP governments. The MOU for JSF was signed on 11 Jun 2002. AKP was not the governing party at the time.
2 - MILGEM project was launched in 1996. The decision to licence build Blohm and Voss corvettes was shelved in 2001, and it was decided to go for a domestic design. AKP again was not the governing party.
3 - The RfP for the TF-2000 project was relased in late 1999. Once again, it has nothing to do with AKP.
4- There is no S-400 project. The Air Defence projects currently underway are T-LALADMIS, T-MALADMIS and T-HALADMIS. The S-400 is a projected offer in response to the T-HALADMIS RFI.
5 - The ATAK project is the second project launched for the procurement of Assult Helicopters. You will remember that the first project which Bell Textron had won was cancelled. The procurement plans for Attack Helicopters has been going on with official projects since late 1990s and the first project was completed in 2000.
6 - TIHA UAV project YEFDED and YAFDED documents were released on 10 October 2001. The RfP was released on 27 MArch 2002, and the bids were submitted by 4 October 2002. Again AKP was not the governing party.

To summarise it shortly, Defence Procurement and Modernization projects take significant time to plan and bring to completion. The current "star" projects of Turkish Armed Forces have been going on for over 10 years now. The current AKP government is continuing a national policy that has already been decided upon a long time ago.

AKP government has made serious errors in judgement in foreign policy, and I believe you are also following how they are coming under heavy critisism in domestic circles.

Dear Ucar,

Ok maybe the Military projects were planned decades ago, but a large number of these projects were mere projects. That is, the Turkish Armed Forces (not even the Government in charge at the time) did not have the finances to turn those projects into commissioned platforms. No matter how much we may hate the AKP, we can not deny the fact that they have financed the Turkish Armed Forces a great deal. It could be said that the Turkish Armed Forces is living its golden age under AKP government. The 6 AIP subs is also an example of this. No where in Turkish history was such a major decision, taken in such short time. When the AKP came to power in 2002, the Turkish GDP (PPP) was around $300 billion. Today, it is around $1 trillion. Surely, this meant a larger budget for the TAF.

Furthermore, the Atak I tender was a major failure. A failure which took 25 years to rectify. As a direct result of this, the TAF is currently experiencing alot of difficulty due to a lack of attack helis. So much so that we are literally begging countries to sell us used ones. AKP completed ATAK 2 with an indegenous solution.

Regarding current Turkish Foreign Policy, I must state the following:

Turkish Foreign Policy is not solely in the hands of the rulling Government. A majority of the decisions which affect the Turkish State and it's International Relations with third-parties is taken at a meeting of the National Security Council. The National Security Council is composed of the Top Military brass, the Council of Ministers and also the President of the Turkish Republic. Thus, if there are foreign policy issues faced by Turkey today, the AKP cannot solely take the blame. From my observations also, the TAF support the AKP on many issues. In fact, so much so, that the Republican People's Party, General Secretary, implied that the Chief of the General Staff took bribes from the AKP and that they were both acting in cohort!

tito
02 Sep 08,, 17:27
well either way turkey would benefit by playing hard to get..

is it me or has turkey made large scale improvements in its army in a short span..

Dreadnought
02 Sep 08,, 21:10
Turkey and the U.S. have had better then good relations even before the very first Gulf War.;)

Big K
03 Sep 08,, 07:08
Turkey and the U.S. have had better then good relations even before the very first Gulf War.;)

yes thats for sure,

but i believe US planners forgot that Turkey suffered even more Kuwait due to economic crisis.

and US searchs to make an alternative allie, is the reason of it.

Big K
03 Sep 08,, 08:34
Turkey, America's one real ally in the Middle East, is a huge loser in this war. We slapped them in the face, gave the Kurds a base to destabilize southeastern Turkey, and helped elect the first Islamist president in what used to be a proudly secular country.

we already sad this arguments long ago on this board.

wow, somebody finally awaken over there?...

and Turki_de,


When the AKP came to power in 2002, the Turkish GDP (PPP) was around $300 billion. Today, it is around $1 trillion.

what about foreign debt?

can you give foreign debt numbers between 1923/2002 and 2002/2008?

why foreign debth between 2002/2008 is more than double of between 1923/2002?!!!!!!!!!!!!

i do not try to protect any govts. economic program but AKP is the worst of all, do not protect AKP's economic programs,

they totally ruined the country, and their economic gauges are totally wrong and biaised.

what about banking system? in any country in the world theres no other banking system in which foreign shares is more than %40.

in Turkey now it is %70!!!!!!!!!!!

it is very similar with the ending days of Ottoman Empire.

yes the export increased but not more than import!!!!!!!!!

is that illusionist good conditions of economy because of "hot money" ?

why Turkey taking on debth with a return of 17.1% ??? instead of like 4 or 3% like Greece for exemple?

a 100 million dollars become 225 million dollar in a year in Turkey.

thats why people invest in.

what if this hot money suddenly left the country???? lets say if Turkey obliges some of the debth taken countries, what will they do with this hot money????

in the caucassian issue, why Turkey was the element neutral?

was that because we are relied to Russia for 80% of our energy??...

this list goes on and on i dont even started the radical Islamic moves yet...

dont even think about protecting this govt.

and Mr. Gul is nothing more than a puppet as far as everybody knows...

Ucar
03 Sep 08,, 14:49
My heart felt congratulations and sentiments exactly. Thank you Big K.

Big K
03 Sep 08,, 15:58
My heart felt congratulations and sentiments exactly. Thank you Big K.

you'r most welcome Ucar.

for the foreign readers i think we must state a bit of Turkey's inner dynamics and conditions before starting to understand its people's attitude towards NATO or other foreign affairs.

and show to Wabbers what exactly going on in Turkey.

because unfortunately i saw that healthy statements and point of views on Turkey are very very rare.

i am very afraid that when West realize their mistake it will be too late.

Yasin22
04 Sep 08,, 04:35
With the advent of Russia once again as an adversary of concern, if Turkey pulls away, then the Black Sea will become Russia's backwaters and NATO allies like Georgia on the limb. Oil from CAR through Turkey will be another dream gone sour!!

If Turkey pulls away (not out!), then an important launch pad into the ME will also be denied.

Keeping Turkey in the warm and comfortable hug is also important lest it goes the Islamist ways!!

Turkey has to be kept in good humour and of that there is no doubt!

they are not islamist they are just a people of fate who is doing a better job then other partys mostly better then the leftys which are a bunch of fashist atheast who cant take the fact that a man of fate i doing a better job then a man with out a fate i hate it when people say islamists its what dictatore says

Big K
04 Sep 08,, 07:56
Yasin22,

first of all as a Muslim you must know that you can not judge anybodys faith.

As you must agree that playing God is the highest sin.

now can you state which are the facts proving that they made "a better job"??

also please can you describe what is "a better job" and in which sector "a better job" is done?

evidently this "a better job" is not done in economics as i stated above,

nor foreign policy, cause Turkey's influence is lower than ever regarding current situtation in the neighbourhood,

nor inner politics cause they divided the country as the Muslims and lefty fachists like you stated above.

and now their so-called elected President is going to a country in which there is a fundamental law who do not respect your territorial integrity.

i dont even mention about land sales to foreigners

you see? i dont even mention about religious issues, because IT IS NOT ABOUT THE RELIGION AT ALL, IT WAS NOT AND IT WILL BE NOT.

wake up and see the whole picture, any "lefty fachist" want to intervene our religion,

we have to wake up and take action my friend.

regards.

PS:and about the "dictatoreat" you meant, which dicta was that?

----------------------------

Sir Ray,

heres a good exemple, you see?

very different sensivities than West can imagine.

do you see the words "fachist atheits"?

you can not blame him because hes right in his point of view.

this is the power of mis-information, propaganda etc.

this is how you can control an economically bounded low-educated country and its people, and how to manipulate them towards your goals.

this is not a conspiracy theory, this is a living fact...

Ray
04 Sep 08,, 09:52
Yasin22,

first of all as a Muslim you must know that you can not judge anybodys faith.

As you must agree that playing God is the highest sin.

now can you state which are the facts proving that they made "a better job"??

also please can you describe what is "a better job" and in which sector "a better job" is done?

evidently this "a better job" is not done in economics as i stated above,

nor foreign policy, cause Turkey's influence is lower than ever regarding current situtation in the neighbourhood,

nor inner politics cause they divided the country as the Muslims and lefty fachists like you stated above.

and now their so-called elected President is going to a country in which there is a fundamental law who do not respect your territorial integrity.

i dont even mention about land sales to foreigners

you see? i dont even mention about religious issues, because IT IS NOT ABOUT THE RELIGION AT ALL, IT WAS NOT AND IT WILL BE NOT.

wake up and see the whole picture, any "lefty fachist" want to intervene our religion,

we have to wake up and take action my friend.

regards.

PS:and about the "dictatoreat" you meant, which dicta was that?

----------------------------

Sir Ray,

heres a good exemple, you see?

very different sensivities than West can imagine.

do you see the words "fachist atheits"?

you can not blame him because hes right in his point of view.

this is the power of mis-information, propaganda etc.

this is how you can control an economically bounded low-educated country and its people, and how to manipulate them towards your goals.

this is not a conspiracy theory, this is a living fact...

I am aware of the fact that what he says is indeed how Moslems feel.

But is that realpolitik?

Turkey and the Islamic world has to survive in this world.

There are three ways for survival - toeing the US/ Russia/ China.

The choice yours!

If you think you or anyone else is independent, then that is a mirage!

Ray
04 Sep 08,, 09:55
Religion has no place in the equation and Islam has not come of age to claim to be a centre of power!

The terrorists are making life hell, but their govts are toeing various power's line of thought!

The Chinese call this neo colonialism!

Big K
04 Sep 08,, 10:54
I am aware of the fact that what he says is indeed how Moslems feel.

But is that realpolitik?

Turkey and the Islamic world has to survive in this world.

There are three ways for survival - toeing the US/ Russia/ China.

The choice yours!

If you think you or anyone else is independent, then that is a mirage!

i was focusing mainly to the Turkey like the thread is based on Turkey.

in order to spread seeds of strife, (thingking of all this is a sort of coincidence may refer to a high level of naiveté) those who hold the "real power" shows all the oppositional efforts as the actions of "non faithful sources of power" and it is very simple due to their %70-80 share of media sector.

when you say "stop opening more Mosques! theres enough!"
they suddenly ask "why are you opposing Islam??" and tell this to all those un-aware un-educated conservative people.

in order to back in topic i want to state that all this came from the current govt. of TR. and how and why West supported them to elect.

and i wanted to show how effective can they be....



Religion has no place in the equation...

the religions were never the real reason as we all know very well, my point to my own people is if it is not the religion why do you still dividing your self as faithful and non-faithful?

Doktor
04 Sep 08,, 11:01
A bit of digression.
Would love to see those polls taken again now after Russia - Georgia thing.

Turkey doing better now? Well maybe on paper. I remember Turkey being more active on the Balcans before. Maybe they just put the attention to the Mid East idk, just don't see them very active here.

TA purchased more guns? Great. As they are in constant arms race with Greece, I'd love to see comparation on the new purchases the two countries did.

Yasin22
05 Sep 08,, 12:42
Yasin22,

first of all as a Muslim you must know that you can not judge anybodys faith.

As you must agree that playing God is the highest sin.

now can you state which are the facts proving that they made "a better job"??

also please can you describe what is "a better job" and in which sector "a better job" is done?

evidently this "a better job" is not done in economics as i stated above,

nor foreign policy, cause Turkey's influence is lower than ever regarding current situtation in the neighbourhood,

nor inner politics cause they divided the country as the Muslims and lefty fachists like you stated above.

and now their so-called elected President is going to a country in which there is a fundamental law who do not respect your territorial integrity.

i dont even mention about land sales to foreigners

you see? i dont even mention about religious issues, because IT IS NOT ABOUT THE RELIGION AT ALL, IT WAS NOT AND IT WILL BE NOT.

wake up and see the whole picture, any "lefty fachist" want to intervene our religion,

we have to wake up and take action my friend.

regards.

PS:and about the "dictatoreat" you meant, which dicta was that?

----------------------------

Sir Ray,

heres a good exemple, you see?

very different sensivities than West can imagine.

do you see the words "fachist atheits"?

you can not blame him because hes right in his point of view.

this is the power of mis-information, propaganda etc.

this is how you can control an economically bounded low-educated country and its people, and how to manipulate them towards your goals.

this is not a conspiracy theory, this is a living fact...

what i mean is that after 4 years the economy was riseing until the 4 eyed baykal started a closeing issue with AKP trying waste there time there like a cancer of turkiye my freind i reckon turkiye is better off being stated as a muslum country any ways at least we can show that islam is religion to be recognised as peace friendship and love and forgiveness not like what you see in media today justifying about islam being a terrorist religion just so that they can get high rateings today i mean that makes me angry.

im not good at politics i just like talking about issues and subjects and at least i get to know and understand about something correct me for all i care

Big K
05 Sep 08,, 18:17
we already sad this arguments long ago on this board.

wow, somebody finally awaken over there?...

and Turki_de,



what about foreign debt?

can you give foreign debt numbers between 1923/2002 and 2002/2008?

why foreign debth between 2002/2008 is more than double of between 1923/2002?!!!!!!!!!!!!

i do not try to protect any govts. economic program but AKP is the worst of all, do not protect AKP's economic programs,

they totally ruined the country, and their economic gauges are totally wrong and biaised.

what about banking system? in any country in the world theres no other banking system in which foreign shares is more than %40.

in Turkey now it is %70!!!!!!!!!!!

it is very similar with the ending days of Ottoman Empire.

yes the export increased but not more than import!!!!!!!!!

is that illusionist good conditions of economy because of "hot money" ?

why Turkey taking on debth with a return of 17.1% ??? instead of like 4 or 3% like Greece for exemple?

a 100 million dollars become 225 million dollar in a year in Turkey.

thats why people invest in.

what if this hot money suddenly left the country???? lets say if Turkey obliges some of the debth taken countries, what will they do with this hot money????

in the caucassian issue, why Turkey was the element neutral?

was that because we are relied to Russia for 80% of our energy??...

this list goes on and on i dont even started the radical Islamic moves yet...

dont even think about protecting this govt.

and Mr. Gul is nothing more than a puppet as far as everybody knows...


Yasin22,


after 4 years the economy was riseing

the economy was rising? oh...i wasnt aware of that!?!?!?

perhaps i slept last 6 years...

can you just answers my(and whole nations) current questions who are stated above?


what i mean is that after 4 years the economy was riseing until the 4 eyed baykal started a closeing issue with AKP trying waste there time there like a cancer of turkiye my freind i reckon turkiye is better off being stated as a muslum country any ways at least we can show that islam is religion to be recognised as peace friendship and love and forgiveness not like what you see in media today justifying about islam being a terrorist religion just so that they can get high rateings today i mean that makes me angry.

im not good at politics i just like talking about issues and subjects and at least i get to know and understand about something correct me for all i care

also stating the main opposing partys president as a "cancer-like" show your level of tolerence.

i thing that you must read more and more threads in WAB in which you can see that i have no need of lessons about Islam...

read the questions and find yhe answers, make a research about these issues and you'll find your answers...

but numbers does not lies,

economy is worst than ever...

GeneralElectric
07 Sep 08,, 19:58
they are not islamist they are just a people of fate who is doing a better job then other partys mostly better then the leftys which are a bunch of fashist atheast who cant take the fact that a man of fate i doing a better job then a man with out a fate i hate it when people say islamists its what dictatore says

stop talking BS please...:rolleyes:

GeneralElectric
07 Sep 08,, 20:01
we already sad this arguments long ago on this board.

wow, somebody finally awaken over there?...

and Turki_de,



what about foreign debt?

can you give foreign debt numbers between 1923/2002 and 2002/2008?

why foreign debth between 2002/2008 is more than double of between 1923/2002?!!!!!!!!!!!!

i do not try to protect any govts. economic program but AKP is the worst of all, do not protect AKP's economic programs,

they totally ruined the country, and their economic gauges are totally wrong and biaised.

what about banking system? in any country in the world theres no other banking system in which foreign shares is more than %40.

in Turkey now it is %70!!!!!!!!!!!

it is very similar with the ending days of Ottoman Empire.

yes the export increased but not more than import!!!!!!!!!

is that illusionist good conditions of economy because of "hot money" ?

why Turkey taking on debth with a return of 17.1% ??? instead of like 4 or 3% like Greece for exemple?

a 100 million dollars become 225 million dollar in a year in Turkey.

thats why people invest in.

what if this hot money suddenly left the country???? lets say if Turkey obliges some of the debth taken countries, what will they do with this hot money????

in the caucassian issue, why Turkey was the element neutral?

was that because we are relied to Russia for 80% of our energy??...

this list goes on and on i dont even started the radical Islamic moves yet...

dont even think about protecting this govt.

and Mr. Gul is nothing more than a puppet as far as everybody knows...

X2 !

Big K
08 Sep 08,, 07:48
i just showed WAB to one of my friends who is in the service right now.

he is a chopper pilot, one rank upper than lieutenant but not a captain, i dont know the word exactly in English.

he is willing to share his personal opinions with us so he'll join as soon as possible after his next return to Istanbul, hes now on duty at somewhere in southeastern.

Ucar
08 Sep 08,, 08:01
He is a first lieutenant, Nato code OF-1.

Big K
08 Sep 08,, 08:21
He is a first lieutenant, Nato code OF-1.

Ucar,

you r not still in, right?

Ucar
08 Sep 08,, 09:13
I am out, and have been so since 2006.

Big K
08 Sep 08,, 09:22
I am out, and have been so since 2006.

what are your personal thoughts about this turning cool to NATO?

snapper
08 Sep 08,, 10:39
they are not islamist they are just a people of fate who is doing a better job then other partys mostly better then the leftys which are a bunch of fashist atheast who cant take the fact that a man of fate i doing a better job then a man with out a fate i hate it when people say islamists its what dictatore says

Personaly I get scared by "men of fate"; they seem to think they have a right to break to break basic human moral laws! Save me from 'men of fate'!

Big K
08 Sep 08,, 11:54
Personaly I get scared by "men of fate"; they seem to think they have a right to break to break basic human moral laws! Save me from 'men of fate'!

first of all i believe you are confusing which men he and you are talking about,

secondly i believe that we do not need this kind of debate considering that i've already answered him.

thirdly you dont need to be afraid because those so-called "man of fate" can not stretch their arms towards England, they are locals and will remain local.

and a final addition, i hope one day we will save ourselves...

Ps: just curiosity, which "man of fate" you are mentioning? :)

snapper
08 Sep 08,, 12:38
There have been many - didn't Hitler regard himself as a 'man of fate'? One thing they all have in common is that they regard themselves as above human morality and this is what makes them dangerous. I hope you are saved from such men!

Big K
08 Sep 08,, 12:48
There have been many - didn't Hitler regard himself as a 'man of fate'? One thing they all have in common is that they regard themselves as above human morality and this is what makes them dangerous. I hope you are saved from such men!

i think he wanted to say "faith" not "fate" :)

we were talking about about the current Govt.&President of Republic of Turkey.

snapper
08 Sep 08,, 15:21
Equaly dangerous sometimes. I was aware what you were talking about and myself am more than a little concerned about the shift away from secularism in Turkey. I will be happy when the EU puts away its pseudo-Christian bias and gets on with making it's area prosperous. I would welcome Turkish membership today as a sign that we are moving forwards and not living in the shadow of the past. Turkey is an enourmous market and can provide cheap labour. If the EU is about prosperity Turkey should have been given membership long ago. Don't tell me this is a just a Greek problem!

As an aside my Sister (who is an economist working for the UN) went to Egypt two years ago to help do an EU sponsored report on a future free trade agreement between the EU and Egypt... Now if they are already thinking of Egypt as a trade partner surely Turkey must come first - it is, at least in part, IN Europe!

snapper
08 Sep 08,, 15:25
PS Would this post not be better under "The Western Alliance"?

Big K
08 Sep 08,, 15:34
I have purposely put this thread here since NATO members do visit this corner to check up some professionally stuff.

I would sure love to hear comments from all, especially those who have served or are serving in the NATO.


PS Would this post not be better under "The Western Alliance"?

thats why.

Big K
08 Sep 08,, 16:02
Equaly dangerous sometimes. I was aware what you were talking about and myself am more than a little concerned about the shift away from secularism in Turkey. I will be happy when the EU puts away its pseudo-Christian bias and gets on with making it's area prosperous. I would welcome Turkish membership today as a sign that we are moving forwards and not living in the shadow of the past. Turkey is an enourmous market and can provide cheap labour. If the EU is about prosperity Turkey should have been given membership long ago. Don't tell me this is a just a Greek problem!

As an aside my Sister (who is an economist working for the UN) went to Egypt two years ago to help do an EU sponsored report on a future free trade agreement between the EU and Egypt... Now if they are already thinking of Egypt as a trade partner surely Turkey must come first - it is, at least in part, IN Europe!

The Turkish regular citizen is secular in heart and mind. but as all knows that when man can not realize how to make his money to feed his children, will relie more and more to the mysticism. after the synthetic economic crisis in 2001 the ex-ruling democratic leftist party lost all his credibility (this was the finger of West from my opinion)

in this case common Turks were in a desperate economic conditions. this desperation became an engine who increased their demand of non-corrupted govts. current ruling party AKP seemed to fulfill this role of conservative, non-corrupted, non-elitist party. they are talking very effecively the very same language with the streets.

former radical Islamists, newly so-called "conservative"s said that they changed their mindset and became democratic.

but it was not.

they exactly "sold" the whole country to the foreigners, ruined every economic installations, been in all sort of corruption.

they already silenced %70 of free media...

anyway as for membership of EU,

EU's democratic reformings will decrease the influence of TAF,

this is their ultimate goal,

they have an ongoing campaign which says that "TAF is unsuccessiful but we are" (for years TAF was saying that economic ad social reforms are needed for the area)

they are using the Islam the other main social manipulating system.

the first is used by PKK terrorists which is radical-nationalism.

they are using every opportunity fo weaken TAF's positions and penetrate in it.

regarding current situation i am waiting for a huge reaction from our people

because they started to smell too badly (http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/political-discussions/46660-turkish-pm-under-pressure-over-recent-rise-akp-related-scandals.html#post542498)

on the otherhand,

i personally dont agree with EU...

snapper
08 Sep 08,, 16:24
Well it certainly seems that 'men of faith' are not immune from scandal! Why would you oppose EU membership?

Big K
08 Sep 08,, 18:27
can you imagine if only one of the issues that i stated above, or those scandals come to the public in lets say ENGLAND, what will be the "fate" of those in the govt. and PM?

snapper
09 Sep 08,, 02:50
I agree it would most likely damn a Government in the UK and ceratinly the whole compilation would end it. However the EU is not about what Government is in power in what country, nor does it have a preference for the shade of Government: It is about engendering economic prosperity within it's members countries.

To cut it short EU membership is not about individual government scandals (even it's own) but about prosperity (supposedly) and forming closer trade links between neighbours so that it makes sense for us not to fight each other for economic reasons. How then would Turkey or Europe not benefit?

Big K
09 Sep 08,, 07:31
I agree it would most likely damn a Government in the UK and ceratinly the whole compilation would end it. However the EU is not about what Government is in power in what country, nor does it have a preference for the shade of Government: It is about engendering economic prosperity within it's members countries.

To cut it short EU membership is not about individual government scandals (even it's own) but about prosperity (supposedly) and forming closer trade links between neighbours so that it makes sense for us not to fight each other for economic reasons. How then would Turkey or Europe not benefit?


the current govts. attempts to weaken TAF's position with use of EU laws is only one thing.

i do not believe in EU because;

they have huge double standards,

they can not afford us economically,

politically,

and due to their past inner propagandas(like: mama monstruous baby killer Turks are coming...) they cannot afford us socially too.

a 70 000 000 people Turkey suddenly would become one of the biggest country in EU,

they can not share the administration of EU with us(and they must not)

all they want is our man-power in TAF. they probably want us and our army to use as EUs. and this is already pronounced many times in the history. Turkey's best export material is his soldiers.

beyond this EU's would benefit more than Turkey from this partnership. and they are actually benefiting from ongoing customs union which i am totally disagree.

no-customs taxes and no-limitations to EU products but what does EU? they do all of this and plus...is that the fairiness of EU?...

EU selling mines(which are prohibited due to international treatys) to PKK terrorists, baby-killers, (not to discuss here)

BBC is treating Kurds like opressed people, and convince English society to do and believe so without having any real idea.(not to discuss here)

and you are asking me why i am not believing in EU.

infact, how can you believe in EU?

also;

i think that we must meet all the EU reformings economically, socially, militarly and in all matters needed for the sake of our country.

but Turkey, regarding its geographical location and potential sources, must be a independent key player in the international affairs.

EU is a so-called homogened mix. if Turkey joins we must follow the EU's foreign politics, not our own.

Turkey must not be a dead weight but a counterpoise who infact can change something in the area.

i think there must be a newer formation like Cauca-Asian Union or something..and Turkey must take a key position.

in order to take such role Turkey must be "independent" which is the very real debate from the beginning like Nuri Demirag's efforts... (http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/military-aviation/41932-aviation-quiz-106.html#post538757)

but this is another thread.

at the grand total;

i am not willing to join EU but i am willing to make reforming for our own sake.

Ucar
09 Sep 08,, 07:48
Coming back to the topic,

Turkish Armed Forces is established along Nato standards. All of our communication, training, equipment, logistics standards are based on Nato guidelines. Moreover, we are heavily integrated within the Nato framework, and we take more than we give.

Turkish Armed Forces rely heavily on a flow of supplies from Nato partners, accept and purchase significantly high percentage of Nato armaments and systems. To put it shortly, without the cooperation of Nato partners, our armed forces will grind to a halt rather rapidly and surprisingly. Unfortunately, we are not self sufficient in the production and maintenance of our medium to heavy equipment.

Despite what the politicians try or do, Turkish Armed Forces can not afford to lose Nato membership.

Moreover, As OoE has pointed out, Nato is the only meaningful international organization where Turkey has a significant influence over any issues that come up. Despite all the increasing ties with Non-wesetrn countries, Nato is and will remain a significant alliance for Turkish foreign policy and military strategy.

snapper
09 Sep 08,, 14:51
Point taken Big K Sir, though you emphasise our differences where I would prefer to emphasise our common interests.

Big K
09 Sep 08,, 15:22
Point taken Big K Sir, though you emphasise our differences where I would prefer to emphasise our common interests.

well if you want to reduce to the simple this is your decision.

let me remind you a saying of Napoleon: "Geograhphy is the fate of countrys"

kato
13 Sep 08,, 20:53
all they want is our man-power in TAF. they probably want us and our army to use as EUs. and this is already pronounced many times in the history. Turkey's best export material is his soldiers.

It should be absolutely clear that if Turkey were to join EU, it'd be required to contribute at minimum as many forces to EU defense structures as Germany, France or the UK.

That'd mean at least 10,000 men in EU-commanded deployments, 25,000 men on immediate high-readiness state, 100,000 men ready for EU/NATO deployments, a quarter million men in active, attributable forces, and a million men in wartime reserves.
Whatever forces Turkey would attribute to its internal conflicts should not be included in that.

And if we're pulling out classic quotes... anything less than that would be Turkey just looking like the "Sick Man of the Bosporus" again.

Big K
14 Sep 08,, 08:53
Kato,

this sentence have a meaning if you take all the post.

otherwise of course i konw that one should fulfill its responsabilities once join in the EU.

Ray
14 Sep 08,, 09:32
Snapper,

What is so great about EU?

Is Turkey that impoverished or afraid!

The fact that they control the Strait of Bosporus and the oil terminal for Baku oil is enough for them to have the handle!

What does the EU have?

To be frank, they are a pushover if they did not piggyback the US!

Take each country of the EU individually, they are not worth consideration at all, economically or even militarily!

Big K
14 Sep 08,, 11:42
Sir,

you might live here...

snapper
14 Sep 08,, 12:26
Ray Sir, my point is that both sides would benefit by Turkey joining the EU.