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View Full Version : New Poll Shows That Muslim Extremists In Britain Are A Minority



Gabru47
16 Aug 06,, 23:35
7/7 bombings 'justified' say a quarter of British Muslims
ALMOST a quarter of British Muslims say the 7/7 bombings can be justified because of the Government's support for the war on terror, according to an opinion poll.

And nearly half of those polled, or 45 per cent, believe the 9/11 attacks on New York were a conspiracy between the United States and Israel. The survey, for a Channel 4 Dispatches documentary to be screened tonight, found Muslims under 24 were twice as likely to justify the 7/7 attacks as those aged over 45. It found 24 per cent either agreed or tended to agree that the 7/7 bombings were justified, although 48 per cent said they "strongly disagreed".

A third of those questioned said they would rather live under Sharia law in the UK than British law.

The survey also reveals concerns among Muslims about Britain's moral standards, with 40 per cent saying it is a country of bad moral behaviour.
http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1145782006

Muslim extremists are a minority it seems.

ArmchairGeneral
17 Aug 06,, 00:23
A disturbingly large minority, it seems to me. Although I wonder how many Muslim women would say they prefer Sharia law if they were not under such strict male control.

gunnut
17 Aug 06,, 00:39
Muslim extremists are a minority it seems.

Wow, muslim extremists are only a few percentage points away from being mainstream. When that happens, we will have to revise our view of the "silent majority" of good muslim people. And then it's open season on "mainstream muslims."

Is that what you want to see?

Ray
17 Aug 06,, 07:44
It appears the Britain is being visited with the problems that India faces in so far as the demands being made i.e. foreign policy, riots, terrorism and Sharia!

Well, one thing that is not common is that the British govt does not subsidise the Haj trip, which the Indian govt does. India is real secular since non Moslem tax payers' money also contributes to the salvation of their Moslem brethren!

Gabru47
17 Aug 06,, 21:15
I can't tell if your being sarcrastic gunnut.

gunnut
17 Aug 06,, 23:20
I can't tell if your being sarcrastic gunnut.

Most people can't. :biggrin:

Jessy
21 Aug 06,, 18:15
Not only are muslim extremists in a minority, but they are, compared to the rest of the citizens of the UK, a tiny minority, i feel that the problems are not so much the numbers, but the mindset, extremists, and i am not just narrowing it down to muslims, are always a difficult thing to tackle, how do you combat pure belief and faith, whether it is in a diety, prophet, god or cause?

Muslims though are the easiest target for the press and media, in the week where a man, admitted offences relating to making and intending to use explosive equiptment, in the UK, in the name of animal rights, is called a militant, and the case barely making news, we have people going into rants of Sharoa law and the fears it brings, completely forgetting that muslims are not a majority group in the UK, and i havent met a person yet who doesn't want to change the law in a way to suit them.

Bill
21 Aug 06,, 19:03
Muslim extremists are a minority it seems.

45% is some minority dude.

Wow....not even I thought it was THIS bad.

Yep, there's a global blood bath a-comin' folks.

Jessy
21 Aug 06,, 19:22
Anyone good at statistics?

As far as i can see, there are almost 60 million people in the UK, with an estimated 2 million of those being muslim, and then 45% of those muslims, apparently having issues with the government, terrorism etc... Hardly the stuff revolutions are made of here is it? And bearing in mind that the report also says that 40% of muslims think that the UK is a country of bad moral behaviour, reckon they would have that in common with about 90% of people over 55.

And this is my point, it is all spun to make things appear a certain way.

gunnut
21 Aug 06,, 19:25
Not only are muslim extremists in a minority, but they are, compared to the rest of the citizens of the UK, a tiny minority, i feel that the problems are not so much the numbers, but the mindset, extremists, and i am not just narrowing it down to muslims, are always a difficult thing to tackle, how do you combat pure belief and faith, whether it is in a diety, prophet, god or cause?

Muslims though are the easiest target for the press and media, in the week where a man, admitted offences relating to making and intending to use explosive equiptment, in the UK, in the name of animal rights, is called a militant, and the case barely making news, we have people going into rants of Sharoa law and the fears it brings, completely forgetting that muslims are not a majority group in the UK, and i havent met a person yet who doesn't want to change the law in a way to suit them.

If you're that blind, well, nothing we do can help. I wish you the best in co-existing with the tiny minority of people who believe 7/7 bombing was justified and 9/11 was a US conspiracy.

Jessy
21 Aug 06,, 19:38
So i am blind for putting things in perspective? In that case i hope that i never see. I don't approve of any type of extremism, but it seems to me that having suspicions over motivation and holding opinions that are not the norm are not forms of terrorism, and the small amount of people that do so, are not over-running the country. In my humble opinion anyway.

Bill
21 Aug 06,, 19:56
Anyone good at statistics?

As far as i can see, there are almost 60 million people in the UK, with an estimated 2 million of those being muslim, and then 45% of those muslims, apparently having issues with the government, terrorism etc... Hardly the stuff revolutions are made of here is it? And bearing in mind that the report also says that 40% of muslims think that the UK is a country of bad moral behaviour, reckon they would have that in common with about 90% of people over 55.

And this is my point, it is all spun to make things appear a certain way.

Clearly you cannot add.

Tell me, what is 45% of 2,000,000?

Yep, that's NINE HUNDRED THOUSAND TERRORISTS/EXTREMISTS LIVING IN THE UK RIGHT NOW.(That's um, more than 3x larger than your entire military)

And they're breeding at a rate much faster than the UK majority non-muslims.

Better hope the Muslims never sieze a majority, or you may get your own Darfur up close and personal.

Jessy
21 Aug 06,, 20:05
Somehow, i am not overly concerned at the thought of 900,000 muslims marching on Bond Street, compared to the 56 million other people living here. And i would guess that this survery, is representative of the people that it polled, rather than them actually interviewing every muslim in the country, and i don't think you will find any rational intelligent person who would deny that a poll can show whatever you wish it too.

I don't deny that extremists exist in this country, we have lost people to them, it is a glaring reminder, and i do not deny that terrorism is a threat, however, demonising almost a million people on the say so of a poll and general ill feeling is going to do nothing to combat it, nor encourage co-operation within the various communities.

All i ask is for a little realism.

spittle8
21 Aug 06,, 20:32
"Although I wonder how many Muslim women would say they prefer Sharia law if they were not under such strict male control."

I bet you're actually wrong.

If this poll is accurate, and isn't a statistical anomaly, than the U.K. should start deporting people on a mass scale. This reminds me of living in Texas. A large percentage of the children of illegals consider themselves Mexican first. You never understand what that means unless you live with it. :mad:

Worth noting: today my Mother went to a welfare facility (I don't like it either, but we're poor as **** right now and I can't get a job until I recover from surgery) and almost everyone was Arab. There were alot of blacks, but we live two blocks from the biggest Western mosque, 4ish blocks from Dearborn, the city with the largest Muslim population in the West, and we're in the black sector. All the small businesses around here are Arab. Apparently, what alot of them do is come over here, get free college (how they do that, I'm not sure...), get a small business, and then find a way to get welfare, while not paying taxes. I had an interesting discussion on this with a local some time ago.

Jessy
21 Aug 06,, 20:50
And you would deport people from their country of origin to where?

Ray
21 Aug 06,, 21:12
And you would deport people from their country of origin to where?


If UK is their country of origin, then deport to their Ancestral burial grounds in which ever country it is.

If they are to hang around in the UK, then they have to obey the British laws and the British modes of conduct.

If they wish to change it all to suit their ways, then they should proliferate adequately so that they can defeat the original British natives at the polls in most constituency so as to have a comfortable majority to institute the changes including declaring Mecca as the surrogate capital of UK, if you wish.

BTW, are you a Londonistani?

Jessy
21 Aug 06,, 21:51
So your idea is, if a person disagrees with the government, then their family tree should be traced to wherever they may have originally descended from in order to send them back to that country, if it still indeed exists? And the reason for that of course is because we live in a country that does not allow freedom of speech and expression, in fact i think you may be operating under the impression that Nazi Germany in fact won the war.

The people interviewed in this 'poll' are chosen to be representative of hundreds of thousands of people that were not interviewed, indeed, as far as i can see from the link, none of them were accused of not following the laws of the UK, your reference to 'British' modes of conduct, what is that in reference to, i would appreciate you clarifying what that consists of.

And in answer to your question, i am neither a Londoner, nor a Pakistani, i was born in Britain.

gunnut
21 Aug 06,, 22:56
Deport them to which ever country they consider themselves to be a part of. Obviously they don't feel like being British.

Ray
22 Aug 06,, 00:11
So your idea is, if a person disagrees with the government, then their family tree should be traced to wherever they may have originally descended from in order to send them back to that country, if it still indeed exists? And the reason for that of course is because we live in a country that does not allow freedom of speech and expression, in fact i think you may be operating under the impression that Nazi Germany in fact won the war.

The people interviewed in this 'poll' are chosen to be representative of hundreds of thousands of people that were not interviewed, indeed, as far as i can see from the link, none of them were accused of not following the laws of the UK, your reference to 'British' modes of conduct, what is that in reference to, i would appreciate you clarifying what that consists of.

And in answer to your question, i am neither a Londoner, nor a Pakistani, i was born in Britain.


Being lily livered does not in anyway indicate the outcome of WW II.

Indeed you must have been born in Britain. But are you of the original stock that inhabited Britain before it took off building the Empire?

British mode of conduct means the British way of life till swamped by the colonial immigrants.

And as Gannut has indicated, if you are a Britisher, then be British. Forget where you or your ancestor came from. Be loyal to your religion, but let that not come in the way of your being loyal to Britain. Don't bomb trains because some bloke in Palestine is unable to hold his own. Or get upset if Iraq is attacked. If Britain is attacked, then gird up your loins. Or else let your manhood rest.

Bill
22 Aug 06,, 00:17
Somehow, i am not overly concerned at the thought of 900,000 muslims marching on Bond Street...

Probably because you're a dumbasss, but i digress.


All i ask is for a little realism.

If i was you i'd much rather want a little more ammunition.

gunnut
22 Aug 06,, 00:58
If i was you i'd much rather want a little more ammunition.

Brits have been disarmed and pacified by the socialists decades ago. He wouldn't know what you mean if you smacked him in the face with a trout.

HistoricalDavid
22 Aug 06,, 01:01
I'm a Romanian immigrant to Britain and given the choice I'd say I'm British due to various factors. But perhaps the most important thing someone can be is not a nationality, but a law-abider and a freedom-respecter. The former refers to obeying British law as it stands - not murdering people, not holding up placards which incite violence, etc. The latter, I think, is deeper and more significant - not only must you not obey the law, but it's fundamentally treacherous to advocate oppressive laws or government.

Who the hell do they think they are when they want Sharia law here? Or that they "disapprove of the freedoms" available here?

Normally I'd go up to them with a bunch of scantily clad non-related lovelies, giving said women alcohol, getting some of them to drive, holding up placards saying things like "Mohammed = GH3Y LOL", "I gave evidence in court today and it was worth as much as a man's!" and "I luv church-state separation ROFL" just to poke fun at them.

Except that in Britain we're disarmed and the political measures some of these bastards advocate will throw Britain back to somewhere between the stone and the iron age with no recourse.

F*** "Oh but we're alienated..." "Oh but Blair invaded Iraq..." "The Government needs to engage with us..."

It's subhuman to advocate Sharia law, anywhere, be it Saudi Arabia or Britain. And the fact that 33% of them want it is worrying.

spittle8
22 Aug 06,, 01:35
And you would deport people from their country of origin to where?
That's, of course, the big problem.

If they weren't born in Britain, send them back to their port of origin. If they're second generation, send them to their parent's homeland. Of course, these nations might refuse to accept them. With Mexico, you can merely threaten economic retribution. For Britain, I don't know. Something should be done if these poll results are accurate. That's terrifying. I believe Muslims are swarming into the U.K. much faster than the natives reproduce. Same thing is happening here. It would be all fine and dandy if they weren't so different, but their views are hostile, alien, and highly caustic. Here, they (Mexicans mostly, but Arabs as well, atleast where I am) soak up welfare and ruin our school systems, while contributing to crime. In Canada, they are apparently/were considering allowing their Muslims to live by Sharia law. I won't comment on that.

Failing any definitive solution, watch them. Pass some legislation, and tap their phones. Monitor them. Strip them of their privacy. This should get a point across. Of course, many of these Muslims are perfectly fine individuals. So, if it becomes apparent any number of them are benign, stop monitoring them.

Considering the times, I don't think I'm being that much of a dick to suggest all this.

"The people interviewed in this 'poll' are chosen to be representative of hundreds of thousands of people that were not interviewed, indeed, as far as i can see from the link, none of them were accused of not following the laws of the UK, your reference to 'British' modes of conduct, what is that in reference to, i would appreciate you clarifying what that consists of."

Hopefully, the poll was a freak occurance, and they managed to poll just the crazies. However, that is extremely unlikely.


"Probably because you're a dumbasss, but i digress."

Yeah! :)

"Normally I'd go up to them with a bunch of scantily clad non-related lovelies, giving said women alcohol, getting some of them to drive, holding up placards saying things like "Mohammed = GH3Y LOL", "I gave evidence in court today and it was worth as much as a man's!" and "I luv church-state separation ROFL" just to poke fun at them."

Hell yes.

Bill
22 Aug 06,, 02:34
Brits have been disarmed and pacified by the socialists decades ago. He wouldn't know what you mean if you smacked him in the face with a trout.

Tehehehehehe.

Bill
22 Aug 06,, 02:36
It's subhuman to advocate Sharia law, anywhere, be it Saudi Arabia or Britain. And the fact that 33% of them want it is worrying.

There have been some muslim communities here that have called for it too.

F that. That happens, it's time for the new revolution to start, and i will gladly fire the shot heard round the world.

Sharia in the US over my goddamned dead body.

Bill
22 Aug 06,, 02:38
And you would deport people from their country of origin to where?

"US Army Snipers...overpopulating Hell one round at a time."

Jessy
22 Aug 06,, 08:21
Being lily livered does not in anyway indicate the outcome of WW II.

Indeed you must have been born in Britain. But are you of the original stock that inhabited Britain before it took off building the Empire?

British mode of conduct means the British way of life till swamped by the colonial immigrants.

And as Gannut has indicated, if you are a Britisher, then be British. Forget where you or your ancestor came from. Be loyal to your religion, but let that not come in the way of your being loyal to Britain. Don't bomb trains because some bloke in Palestine is unable to hold his own. Or get upset if Iraq is attacked. If Britain is attacked, then gird up your loins. Or else let your manhood rest.

Well, for one, i have no religion. Secondly, i haven't got the foggiest where my family tree originates from, i have a feeling there are not many people able to trace back their origins easily, since Britain is actually a land of mixed races, but i appreciate the irony of being questioned on my ancestory and then told to forget it. The rest of your post, i agree with, i don't approve of any form of extremism and i certainly do not accept any excuses for it, you want to change foreign policy, thats what your vote is for... You don't like the way women act, don't associate with them, and so on.

Jessy
22 Aug 06,, 08:23
Probably because you're a dumbasss, but i digress.



If i was you i'd much rather want a little more ammunition.

You can throw your insults about as you please, your opinion would have to matter for me to care, however, i find it interesting that the only part of my post you choose to quote is that one, not the fact that muslims in general are a tiny minority, and these so called 'extremists' even smaller.

Jessy
22 Aug 06,, 08:31
How many times have you seen a drunk driver getting fined for causing someones death and wanted to see change within the justice system, how many times have you seen paedophiles get away with abuse, and advocated perhaps the death penalty or torture, how many times have you seen 11 year old girls that are sexually active and blamed the parents for this?

According to some this means you should be sent straight back to Romania, or wherever your ancestors may have originated from, i don't know a single British person that is happy with the law/society/morals/government of the land they live in, thats the point of democracy, so you can attempt to change this if you please.

Sharia law is a religious law, so it will not be put in place in the UK, but i am willing to bet that if you could pick and choose, there are plenty of aspects people would like to employ.

Bill
22 Aug 06,, 09:53
You can throw your insults about as you please,

That's quite true.


your opinion would have to matter for me to care

I think if you asked all the posters here the vast majority would tell you they very much respect my opinion on such matters.


however, i find it interesting that the only part of my post you choose to quote is that one, not the fact that muslims in general are a tiny minority, and these so called 'extremists' even smaller.

900,000 highly motivated fanatics with a common goal is no small thing little one.

It's an army.

PubFather
22 Aug 06,, 13:32
900,000 highly motivated fanatics with a common goal is no small thing little one.

It's an army.
I think there is too much fixation on this "900,000" figure. The most worring figures were the 1/3 who supported Sharia law in the poll and the 24% who believed that the 7/7 bombing were in some way justified.

To start with the 24% - this is appalling and it makes me sick to the stomach. But it does not translate as 400,000 fanatics willing to carry out suicide bombings. I would imagine that should a poll of Irish Catholics within the UK at the height of the "troubles" would have shown very similar levels of support for the IRA (indeed, Sein Fein often polled in excess of this during elections).

That did not mean that 400,000 Catholics were marching on London.

As for the idea of repatriation - it does have an emotional appeal. There was a second gen British Muslim (whose name currently escapes me) on CNN (which I was watching on holiday). His views and beliefs were revolting and the first thing I wanted say was "well, f*** off somewhere else if you don't like it here". It makes me furious. Yet, we live in a democracy. He has the right to say and believe what he likes, as long as it doesnt directly incite violence. We cannot start to go down the line of imprisoning people because of their views. Else, the terrorists have already won.

The biggest burden lies on the Muslim community. On the mosques where it is preached (in some) that the Holocaust was a lie, 9/11 was a cover-up etc. Speaking as someone who was flying out of the UK a week last Thursday (when the bomb plot was uncovered), I felt huge anger about the disruption. I also felt the anger of others when a Muslim family walked through the airport, you could feel the animosity.

Muslims need to stand up and be counted, otherwise, I do fear a backlash from elements of British society. After all, some 13% of the population have seriously considered voting BNP in another recent poll.

I would suggest the 1/3 who were for Sharia law have probably never lived under it. Besides, they can wish for what they want. They will not get it.



Brits have been disarmed and pacified by the socialists decades ago. He wouldn't know what you mean if you smacked him in the face with a trout.
lol@gunnut.
We have never really been "armed" as a nation, not since our civil war. However, come to a Glasgow pub and hit someone with a trout ;) You'll find out how defenceless Brits are.... lol

On a more serious note - those who used to be football hooligans, be members of Combat 18 etc still exist. There is a fertile recruiting ground for extremists of another type....

Bill
22 Aug 06,, 19:30
I think there is too much fixation on this "900,000" figure. The most worring figures were the 1/3 who supported Sharia law in the poll and the 24% who believed that the 7/7 bombing were in some way justified.

To start with the 24% - this is appalling and it makes me sick to the stomach. But it does not translate as 400,000 fanatics willing to carry out suicide [QUOTE=PubFather]bombings. I would imagine that should a poll of Irish Catholics within the UK at the height of the "troubles" would have shown very similar levels of support for the IRA (indeed, Sein Fein often polled in excess of this during elections).

That did not mean that 400,000 Catholics were marching on London.

As for the idea of repatriation - it does have an emotional appeal. There was a second gen British Muslim (whose name currently escapes me) on CNN (which I was watching on holiday). His views and beliefs were revolting and the first thing I wanted say was "well, f*** off somewhere else if you don't like it here". It makes me furious. Yet, we live in a democracy. He has the right to say and believe what he likes, as long as it doesnt directly incite violence. We cannot start to go down the line of imprisoning people because of their views. Else, the terrorists have already won.

The biggest burden lies on the Muslim community. On the mosques where it is preached (in some) that the Holocaust was a lie, 9/11 was a cover-up etc. Speaking as someone who was flying out of the UK a week last Thursday (when the bomb plot was uncovered), I felt huge anger about the disruption. I also felt the anger of others when a Muslim family walked through the airport, you could feel the animosity.

Muslims need to stand up and be counted, otherwise, I do fear a backlash from elements of British society. After all, some 13% of the population have seriously considered voting BNP in another recent poll.

I would suggest the 1/3 who were for Sharia law have probably never lived under it. Besides, they can wish for what they want. They will not get it.

Wow, even you huh. "Nah, they're no real threat".

Sorry man, it has to be said....DUMBASS.

You better hope they never get a voting majority(remember, this fight is liable to last decades +), or you have Sudan and Somalia as two very recent examples of lovely new sharia gov'ts to look fwd too.

There are only 2 million plus dead in Darfur where ARAB MUSLIMS are actually killing BLACK muslims cause they're apparently not "MUSLIM ENOUGH" for the kooks in power.


lol@gunnut.
We have never really been "armed" as a nation, not since our civil war. However, come to a Glasgow pub and hit someone with a trout ;) You'll find out how defenceless Brits are.... lol

On a more serious note - those who used to be football hooligans, be members of Combat 18 etc still exist. There is a fertile recruiting ground for extremists of another type....

NOT true. Handguns were not 'mostly' banned in the UK until 1986, and were still technically legal until 1997.

Until then, you were armed.

But you let your gov't take them away like sheep. So now you just get to do what the majority tells you to do.

Better hope that majority aint ever muslim cuz.

spittle8
22 Aug 06,, 19:52
While I agree with you, Sniper, I don't think that this is a problem that will lead to the U.K. being ruled by Sharia happy Muslims. That's a little crazy. Sure, there are ALOT of them coming, but it's not like it is here in the U.S., where in 20 years, minorities will be the majority. That's all fine and dandy as long as we're talking about blacks, but we're talking about the children of illegal immigrants. But that's for a different discussion. While here in the U.S. we are going to lose political power to a group of people who consider themselves Mexican first, Muslims aren't going to be the majority over there any time soon.

On the contrary. What I expect, and rather fear, is that if the crazies in the Muslim community (who's that one British Muslim cleric who was talking about killing Britons or some such?) start getting too rowdy, the indigenous, loyal Britons will bring to power a repressive and racist government. Not completely unlike the fall of the Weimar republic: a nation is confronted with some bad times, and starts to listen to the extremists. Immigrants are often scapegoated for problems. While the threat from British Muslims becoming terrorist is a real one, it doesn't make them all terrorists. We're still talking about a minority. The Britons need to find a way to get the alienated Muslims to assimilate. The problem isn't cultural or racial, it's a religious problem. Muslims won't assimilate. They won't compromise on their religion. They won't compromise on their sexism, their intolerance. That's why I hate organized religion of any and all kinds. :mad:

I agree on the weapons aspect. Imagine if the colonists had been barred from weapons? I can't remember who said it, but there's a quote along the lines of guns being the barrier that prevents government from getting pyschotic. Hitler's aim to guarantee the peace in conquered territories was to confiscate all the locals guns. :)

Bill
22 Aug 06,, 20:24
The domestic Brits are not multiplying at nearly the rate as the imports are, and well, you're getting more imports every day.

Extrapolate that 50 years down the road...and it doesn't sound so crazy.

Fellas, i say we had better stop looking at this as a short term fight. That's a HUGE mistake.

spittle8
22 Aug 06,, 20:30
The domestic Brits are not multiplying at nearly the rate as the imports are, and well, you're getting more imports every day.

Extrapolate that 50 years down the road...and it doesn't sound so crazy.

Fellas, i say we had better stop looking at this as a short term fight. That's a HUGE mistake.
I agree totally. Atleast they aren't in the situation we're in. I wish someone would start a thread on American illegal immigration. I'd like to hear everyones views on that :tongue:

Bill
22 Aug 06,, 20:54
I agree totally. Atleast they aren't in the situation we're in. I wish someone would start a thread on American illegal immigration. I'd like to hear everyones views on that :tongue:

LOL, oh...that's been done here before. :biggrin:

HistoricalDavid
22 Aug 06,, 20:57
http://www.constitution.org/eng/eng_bor.htm

That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law;

Bill
22 Aug 06,, 21:47
Right now "And as allowed by law" doesn't even include PEPPER SPRAY in most cases.

You guys are disarmed.

Ray
22 Aug 06,, 22:06
Well, for one, i have no religion. Secondly, i haven't got the foggiest where my family tree originates from, i have a feeling there are not many people able to trace back their origins easily, since Britain is actually a land of mixed races, but i appreciate the irony of being questioned on my ancestory and then told to forget it. The rest of your post, i agree with, i don't approve of any form of extremism and i certainly do not accept any excuses for it, you want to change foreign policy, thats what your vote is for... You don't like the way women act, don't associate with them, and so on.

There is nothing ironical of asking you to check your ancestry.

If your ancestry perdated the British foray into the world to cobble up their Empire by means fair and foul, you would have not even remembered and would have been assimilated into what could be termed as British culture.

However, if your folks were a recent entry, you would be still clinging on with nostalgia and if you were a Moslem, it would make you prone to aping and empathising with your brothers back home to be treacherous enough to disabuse the hospitality of your homeland of immigaration! Of course, all Moslems cannot be clubbed so, possibly they value their good life over religious valour!

Ray
22 Aug 06,, 22:10
Jessy,

Here is what a Pakistani commentator has to say

Why is it always homing back to Pakistan?



Wishing away reality



By Irfan Husain


WHEN the news about a suspected plot to blow up a number of airliners over the Atlantic broke last week, I remember saying to myself: “I hope there’s no Pakistani connection for a change...” Wishful thinking. As I surfed the Internet, apart from reading the local dailies here in Canada where I am on a brief visit, it became clear that not only is there a Pakistani connection, virtually all the suspects hauled up for interrogation are of Pakistani origin.

And why does this not come as a surprise? Because over the last few years, Pakistan has earned a well-deserved reputation for being a hotbed of religious extremism that has, wantonly and wickedly, used terror as a weapon to further its agenda at home and abroad. And unfortunately, many young Britons of Pakistani descent have fallen prey to the extremist groups that operate freely in a tolerant society which allows anybody to preach his faith.

In Pakistan, we are in a constant state of denial about the unacceptable level of violence associated with religion prevalent in our society. Since Zia’s days when he encouraged the rise of sectarian and ethnic militias, the country has been racked by an unending spiral of violence.

And the state, far from cracking down on those who use religion to kill and maim, has sought to exploit these very groups as proxies in Afghanistan and Kashmir.

This has given these gangs a legitimacy that has emboldened them to recruit and raise money openly.

Indeed, they are now so deeply embedded in our society at so many levels that it is hard to see how the tide can be turned, even if any government in the foreseeable future does muster up the political will and the courage to put the genie of extremism back into the bottle.

Many people in Britain are sceptical about the alleged plot, given the recent track record of the UK’s intelligence agencies. But whatever evidence is finally produced, the arrests do suggest that there is a strong nexus between Islamic organisations in Pakistan, and young Muslims in Britain of Pakistani origin. One feature of extremist groups is that as soon as they are banned, they simply change their names and are back in business.

Thus, the Lashkar-i-Jhangvi has morphed into the Jamaat-ud-Dawa, with Hafeez Mohammad Saeed being the leader of both organisations. Although government spokesmen have tried to distance him from the alleged plot, it is hard to see how a militant group like the Lashkar can become a peaceful welfare organisation overnight.

For the first time, the Tablighi Jamaat is being accused of being a front for terrorist outfits. This organisation has long been viewed as a non-violent collection of devout Muslims whose primary concern is to spread Islam.

At its huge annual public gathering in Raiwind, it attracts hundreds of thousands of the faithful in what is described as the biggest congregation of Muslims outside Makkah. But here is what Alex Alexiv, vice-president for research at the Washington-based Centre for Security Policy says about the Jamaat: “All Tablighis preach a creed that is hardly distinguishable from the radical Wahabi-Salafi jihadist ideology that so many terrorists share...”

But what attracts so many young Pakistani-British citizens to such a stern creed? As in the train bombings of 7/7, those alleged to be planning a murderous (and suicidal) attack on as many as 10 airliners are mostly of Pakistani origin. For one thing, out of the UK’s 1.6 million Muslims, 750,000 are of Pakistani descent. And the vast majority of them are originally from small villages in Azad Kashmir and Punjab, and thus share a conservative, rural background. Most are from homes where either or both parents are uneducated.

Torn between the values of a conservative home environment and a secular, liberal society, they often turn to militancy in their search for an identity. And a handful take that fateful step and become members of terrorist groups.

Perhaps this explanation is too facile for what is obviously a complex phenomenon. But clearly, alienation from, and rejection of, Western values is at work here.

Despite the amazing degree of tolerance and acceptance of diversity that characterises multicultural Britain today, people are getting fed up of the disruption being caused by their Muslim community. In the wake of the terrorist threat, flights were cancelled and delayed across airports in Britain. Although the check-in lines were endless, people were surprisingly good-natured about the delays.

Nonetheless, a growing chorus of voices is now suggesting ‘passenger profiling’ of intending travellers: obviously harmless people would be fast-tracked into the departure lounge, while those matching a certain profile would be subjected to close scrutiny. While this would no doubt lead to charges of racial profiling, how else are law-abiding citizens supposed to get on with their lives?

In a recent survey of Muslims living in Britain, an overwhelming majority said they considered themselves Muslims first, and British next. In a secular society, this has come as a big surprise, specially considering the numerous social benefits received by the thousands of Muslims who do not contribute to the system. And 40 per cent of Muslims would like to see Shariah law imposed in Britain. Despite this, 63 per cent of all Britons have a favourable impression of Muslims.

Back in Pakistan, the government is doing its best to put a favourable spin on its role in disrupting the alleged plot. Poor Tasnim Aslam, the Foreign Office spokesperson, has been pleading for greater recognition of Pakistan’s efforts combating terrorism. But she and her bosses fail to realise that while they are determined to see only one side of the coin, the rest of the world is bent on examining the other side very closely indeed. And what they see is the country to which would-be suicide bombers travel to receive indoctrination and training. Canadian, American, British and French newspapers that I have been reading recently have all carried articles and leaders about the now infamous ‘Pakistan connection’.

It is clear that our current policy of stout denial fools nobody. Anybody visiting Pakistan now sees a country in the grip of growing religious fervour. We have unwittingly created an environment where extremism and terrorism breed and multiply. Unless we pull out our heads from the sand, we will not see the extent of the problem. And if we cannot see the problem, we cannot even begin to solve it.

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm

PubFather
22 Aug 06,, 22:45
Sorry man, it has to be said....DUMBASS.

You better hope they never get a voting majority(remember, this fight is liable to last decades +), or you have Sudan and Somalia as two very recent examples of lovely new sharia gov'ts to look fwd too.

There are only 2 million plus dead in Darfur where ARAB MUSLIMS are actually killing BLACK muslims cause they're apparently not "MUSLIM ENOUGH" for the kooks in power.
I dont discount the potential threat from Muslims. I just want to put it in a context. 1.6 million Muslims in the UK out of 60. 3% roughly of the total population. Overall Muslim immigration is far less than then current east european Christian influx (500 thousand in the last year). Birth rates are higher amongst Muslims - but even in 50 years time that will still not equate to anything like a Muslim majority.



NOT true. Handguns were not 'mostly' banned in the UK until 1986, and were still technically legal until 1997.

Until then, you were armed.
Not what I meant - I was refering to gun ownership which was never as widespread as it is currently in the US. Should the need arise - we will be as capable of acquiring weapons as the IRA or any other group you care to mention.


But you let your gov't take them away like sheep.

No, the guns were banned after Hungerford and Dunblane with popular support. Guns are not part of our culture.

The chance of a Muslim majority is slim at best. Again, caution needs to applied, not panic. Thats what the terrorists actually want - repression again Muslims (as oppossed to sensible precautions) will only breed more Jihadis

Ray
22 Aug 06,, 22:51
Guns are not part of the British culture and so not part of the Indian law.

However, rural India finds carrying 12 bores as a huge macho kick!

Parihaka
22 Aug 06,, 23:59
Right now "And as allowed by law" doesn't even include PEPPER SPRAY in most cases.

You guys are disarmed.
LOL, there was a case here about 10 years ago where a homeowner went on holiday and asked his neighbour to keep an eye on his place. One night the neighbour saw a light on in the house and went over to see what was going on. There was of course a burglar who attacked the neighbour. The neighbour picked up a VIDEOCASSETTE and somehow, don't ask me how, killed the burglar with it. The police prosecuted the neighbour for murder (something about it wasn't his property he was defending and he should have called the cops) The nation waited, the Jury deliberated for 15 minutes (long enough to drink a cup of tea) and returned a verdict of not guilty. IIRC the Judge thanked the Police for wasting the courts time. The cops have been more circumspect about defense of property since then. :biggrin:

PubFather
23 Aug 06,, 00:40
LOL, there was a case here about 10 years ago where a homeowner went on holiday and asked his neighbour to keep an eye on his place. One night the neighbour saw a light on in the house and went over to see what was going on. There was of course a burglar who attacked the neighbour. The neighbour picked up a VIDEOCASSETTE and somehow, don't ask me how, killed the burglar with it. The police prosecuted the neighbour for murder (something about it wasn't his property he was defending and he should have called the cops) The nation waited, the Jury deliberated for 15 minutes (long enough to drink a cup of tea) and returned a verdict of not guilty. IIRC the Judge thanked the Police for wasting the courts time. The cops have been more circumspect about defense of property since then. :biggrin:
An interesting story - in the UK the balance has been too long in favour of the criminal. The policy has recently shifted in favour of the homeowner - in that as long as a weapon is merely a weapon of convience and not used in malice (i.e, you dont beat the guy to death while he's unconcious) - you can use any reasonable means to defend your home/self.

Thats why I have a 5 pound hammer in our bedroom, my great-grandfathers cavalry sabre in the lounge and a fine collection of japanese carving knives in the kitchen.... :biggrin:

cris29
23 Aug 06,, 00:43
Clearly you cannot add.

Tell me, what is 45% of 2,000,000?

Yep, that's NINE HUNDRED THOUSAND TERRORISTS/EXTREMISTS LIVING IN THE UK RIGHT NOW.(That's um, more than 3x larger than your entire military)

And they're breeding at a rate much faster than the UK majority non-muslims.

Better hope the Muslims never sieze a majority, or you may get your own Darfur up close and personal.
__________________

I would go on a killing spree, way before they reach even 15%

spittle8
23 Aug 06,, 02:11
An interesting story - in the UK the balance has been too long in favour of the criminal. The policy has recently shifted in favour of the homeowner - in that as long as a weapon is merely a weapon of convience and not used in malice (i.e, you dont beat the guy to death while he's unconcious) - you can use any reasonable means to defend your home/self.

Thats why I have a 5 pound hammer in our bedroom, my great-grandfathers cavalry sabre in the lounge and a fine collection of japanese carving knives in the kitchen.... :biggrin:
Have you considered that that motley assortment of melee weapons would be highly attractive to a criminal? Hell, he might simply want to STEAL the saber, or the cutlery, that stuff is expensive. So, if anything, you've put a stabbing weapon in the hands of the burglar. There's your problem. I admire your tenacity, however.

Tronic
23 Aug 06,, 05:25
Guns are not part of the British culture and so not part of the Indian law.

However, rural India finds carrying 12 bores as a huge macho kick!

actually I got two 12 bores in my house... its a common thing in punjab... urban and rural punjab...

Bill
23 Aug 06,, 05:49
I dont discount the potential threat from Muslims. I just want to put it in a context. 1.6 million Muslims in the UK out of 60. 3% roughly of the total population. Overall Muslim immigration is far less than then current east european Christian influx (500 thousand in the last year). Birth rates are higher amongst Muslims - but even in 50 years time that will still not equate to anything like a Muslim majority.


I think you're discounting "White flight" to other Western nations(most likely the US) as a larger and larger muslim contingent grows in your nation.

We've seen it all over the US as the ghettos have expanded and the whites have fled to the suburbs for safety. I think at some point Europe is very much going to see that phenomenon occur- if it isn't already.


Not what I meant - I was refering to gun ownership which was never as widespread as it is currently in the US. Should the need arise - we will be as capable of acquiring weapons as the IRA or any other group you care to mention.

Fair point. Illegal guns cannot be stopped. Which also nicely frames the utter stupidity of anti-gun laws to begin with.



No, the guns were banned after Hungerford and Dunblane with popular support. Guns are not part of our culture.

NOPE. The guns were taken away in a POPULAR HYSTERIA....NOT with popular support.

There's not a single brit on my board that supported, or supports the gun ban in the UK. And to be honest, i've seen very, very few here that do either.

And guns ARE very much a part of the culture of all the Brits i know personally or via the net. Most of them still either jump through incredible hoops to still shoot legally, or have simply gone underground with their passion.


The chance of a Muslim majority is slim at best.

The chances of a Corporal that was gassed in WWI taking control of a major world power and conquering all of Europe were EVEN SLIMMER STILL.

But it still happened.


Again, caution needs to applied, not panic

Panic is not in my nature.


Thats what the terrorists actually want- repression again Muslims (as oppossed to sensible precautions) will only breed more Jihadis

Believe me they don't want what i've got in my mind.


Guns are not part of the British culture and so not part of the Indian law.

I know too many brits that are avid shooters to accept that mantra.

They deny it vehemently, and indeed the British bill of rights had an EXPLICIT right to arms for the people. Therefore there was a codified tradition of the right to arms for two CENTURIES before guns were banned.

So i just aint buying that party line that 'guns are not part of british culture'.

British right to arms (http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/It_Isn't_About_Duck_Hunting.htm)


Have you considered that that motley assortment of melee weapons would be highly attractive to a criminal? Hell, he might simply want to STEAL the saber, or the cutlery, that stuff is expensive. So, if anything, you've put a stabbing weapon in the hands of the burglar. There's your problem. I admire your tenacity, however.

Are you kidding me?

What he's done is give him a decent chance to defend himself with arms in the face of an attack.

Self defense is a right that no longer exists in the UK, i might add. I have seen many stories of people being arrested for so much as using pepper spray on a mugger or attacker.

It's sickening. Like i said....Sheep.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmhansrd/vo041028/debtext/41028-07.htm
__________________

Ray
23 Aug 06,, 11:28
The British keep them for organised sport and civilsed pursuits.

Hunting with the hounds etc.

Indians, for macho image.

PubFather
23 Aug 06,, 11:42
I think you're discounting "White flight" to other Western nations(most likely the US) as a larger and larger muslim contingent grows in your nation.

We've seen it all over the US as the ghettos have expanded and the whites have fled to the suburbs for safety. I think at some point Europe is very much going to see that phenomenon occur- if it isn't already.
Ghetto's are already forming, certainly in the UK. This is more due to housing policy and the tendency of (particularly) Muslims to group themselves into specific areas. This in turn helps to breed insularity and separation from the rest of the nation. However, we are still a long way away from the pattern of the USA and with good government would be preventable, at least in part.

White flight away from the UK is also occuring - although interestingly much of it is to Europe as well as to Canada, Australia etc. The White influx from Eastern Europe is only just beginning, hopefully this will rebalance things somewhat.



Fair point. Illegal guns cannot be stopped. Which also nicely frames the utter stupidity of anti-gun laws to begin with.
NOPE. The guns were taken away in a POPULAR HYSTERIA....NOT with popular support.
I disagree. While there was popular hysteria certainly, there is massive popular support for gun control in the UK (rightly or wrongly).


There's not a single brit on my board that supported, or supports the gun ban in the UK. And to be honest, i've seen very, very few here that do either.

And guns ARE very much a part of the culture of all the Brits i know personally or via the net. Most of them still either jump through incredible hoops to still shoot legally, or have simply gone underground with their passion.
I would suggest that your contacts are very much a minority. While I went too far in suggesting that no one in Britain is interested in guns/shooting, the % is far less than in the US.



The chances of a Corporal that was gassed in WWI taking control of a major world power and conquering all of Europe were EVEN SLIMMER STILL.

But it still happened.

Panic is not in my nature.


True. I don't discount the possibility just cannot see it happening yet.



Self defense is a right that no longer exists in the UK, i might add. I have seen many stories of people being arrested for so much as using pepper spray on a mugger or attacker.

It's sickening. Like i said....Sheep.

The right to self-defence the UK is poor - although there were changes to improve it last year. In fact, if a politician had the balls to say that if someone mugs you or breaks into your house, you can do anything you like to them, then they would get a vast amount of support. I don't know anyone who actually disagrees with this.

There have been some shifts in the right direction (hence my armoury). I'm an undecided on gun control, I'd like to point out. I suspect like many Brits I simply have an unease with guns - being unfamiliar with them. Our police dont even routinely carry them...

Bill
23 Aug 06,, 16:35
LOL, there was a case here about 10 years ago where a homeowner went on holiday and asked his neighbour to keep an eye on his place. One night the neighbour saw a light on in the house and went over to see what was going on. There was of course a burglar who attacked the neighbour. The neighbour picked up a VIDEOCASSETTE and somehow, don't ask me how, killed the burglar with it. The police prosecuted the neighbour for murder (something about it wasn't his property he was defending and he should have called the cops) The nation waited, the Jury deliberated for 15 minutes (long enough to drink a cup of tea) and returned a verdict of not guilty. IIRC the Judge thanked the Police for wasting the courts time. The cops have been more circumspect about defense of property since then. :biggrin:

UNbelieveable. Thank GOD the jury had some sense.

P.Father- Good dialogue we had there bro.

Hopefully my "paranoia" is unjustified.

Remember though, it was paranoia that made the US military what it is today, and what it has been for 60 years now. ;)

Ray
23 Aug 06,, 18:40
As far as what I know of the British, they, unlike quite a few Americans, don't take a gun as a natural extension of their skeletal form!

That is what I meant by guns not being a part of British culture.

PubFather
24 Aug 06,, 00:09
P.Father- Good dialogue we had there bro.

Hopefully my "paranoia" is unjustified.

Remember though, it was paranoia that made the US military what it is today, and what it has been for 60 years now. ;)
I hope it is too!! I'm not certain that it isn't....

Well, as they say - "Just because your paranoid, don't mean they're not after you.."

A healthy dose of paranoia can be a good thing...

Nice debating with you again Snipe :)

HistoricalDavid
24 Aug 06,, 00:19
It's not paranoia, it's just "hope for the best, prepare for the worst..."

It's unlikely, but even minorities can dominate and tyrannise countries given the right conditions.

spittle8
24 Aug 06,, 03:52
"Are you kidding me?

What he's done is give him a decent chance to defend himself with arms in the face of an attack.

Self defense is a right that no longer exists in the UK, i might add. I have seen many stories of people being arrested for so much as using pepper spray on a mugger or attacker.

It's sickening. Like i said....Sheep."

Laying a bunch of deadly weapons around your house, for anyone to grab, isn't self defense, it's irresponsibility. If he had said ..."I have a .357 under my pillow"... that would have been self defense. Alot of good a hammer would be when your adversary has a saber. Haha.

Bill
24 Aug 06,, 04:56
Did you see the pictures of my apartment?

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=13815

People lock their doors for a reason you know.

LOL....

Ray
24 Aug 06,, 21:23
Its an arms museum?! ;)

Or is it the local armoury? ;) :)

PubFather
25 Aug 06,, 00:56
Laying a bunch of deadly weapons around your house, for anyone to grab, isn't self defense, it's irresponsibility. If he had said ..."I have a .357 under my pillow"... that would have been self defense. Alot of good a hammer would be when your adversary has a saber. Haha

lol, depends which sabre he grabs - he could take the blunt replica one off the wall or my great-grandfather's from under the sofa (course, he'd need to know it was there). I'm lots of things - stupid isnt one of them.. by the time the police arrive - the replica would be hidden elsewhere... where there's a law, theres a way round it...

EDIT - nice place Snipe!

Bill
25 Aug 06,, 04:38
Thanx PF!

Hehe, yeah Ray, i am the official right to keep and bear arms representitive on my block.

Sort of like a 2nd amendment block captian. ;)

Ray
25 Aug 06,, 11:55
OK.

So you live in Fort Knox!

spittle8
27 Aug 06,, 05:39
lol, depends which sabre he grabs - he could take the blunt replica one off the wall or my great-grandfather's from under the sofa (course, he'd need to know it was there). I'm lots of things - stupid isnt one of them.. by the time the police arrive - the replica would be hidden elsewhere... where there's a law, theres a way round it...

EDIT - nice place Snipe!

I didn't mean to insinuate you were stupid. If the real sabre is hidden, then I guess you've got a nice system in place. :tongue: Sorry if I sounded disrespectful

Dude, is that a Colt SAA? Does it shoot? Is it loaded? Wow.

Ironduke
05 Dec 06,, 10:33
bump

dalem
05 Dec 06,, 17:57
One Muslim extremist is one too many. These crap sacks need to be dealt with.

-dale

PubFather
05 Dec 06,, 17:59
One Muslim extremist is one too many. These crap sacks need to be dealt with.

-dale
One white supremacist/IRA supporter or member etc etc is one too many.

dalem
05 Dec 06,, 18:29
One white supremacist/IRA supporter or member etc etc is one too many.

What, do you expect me to argue against that? They're all scumbags. THe difference is that a KKK moron is more likely to get drunk and pee himself in front of late night TV than do anythign about his retarded fantasy, and even an IRA scumbag throws in the occasional police station bombing. So they are lower on the "needs attention" scale to me than someone who will support or commit to sawing my head off if I don;t respect his magical fairy story about his deity.

-dale

PubFather
05 Dec 06,, 21:28
What, do you expect me to argue against that? They're all scumbags. THe difference is that a KKK moron is more likely to get drunk and pee himself in front of late night TV than do anythign about his retarded fantasy, and even an IRA scumbag throws in the occasional police station bombing. So they are lower on the "needs attention" scale to me than someone who will support or commit to sawing my head off if I don;t respect his magical fairy story about his deity.

-dale
I wasnt expecting you to disagree - just pointing out that Muslim extremism is one of many threats. It is the primus inter pares of threats - but in context (in the UK at least) active extremists remain a tiny tiny fraction of the whole and we do need to differentiate between the two. (Just as you have with Joe-Six Pack KKK, and "legitimate IRA" targeting).

dalem
05 Dec 06,, 23:38
I wasnt expecting you to disagree - just pointing out that Muslim extremism is one of many threats. It is the primus inter pares of threats - but in context (in the UK at least) active extremists remain a tiny tiny fraction of the whole and we do need to differentiate between the two. (Just as you have with Joe-Six Pack KKK, and "legitimate IRA" targeting).

Oh I'm not trying to give IRA killers any credit, just trying to measure relative threat levels. Of course, based on actual terrorist acts they are obviously miles ahead of anything abu Mohammed has done so far to the UK.

-dale

dabong1
11 Dec 06,, 22:44
British Muslim soldiers gaining the highest british military honour the Victoria cross.


Ali Haider Victoria Cross
Date of Action: 9 April 1945
Place of Action: Fusignano, Senio River, Italy


Khuda Dad Khan Victoria Cross
Date of Action: 31 October 1914
Place of Action: Hollebeke, Belgium and France

Shah Ahmad Khan Victoria Cross
Date of Action: 12/13 April 1916
Place of Action: near Beit Ayessa, Mesopotamia

Abdul Hafiz Victoria Cross
Date of Action: 6 April 1944
Place of Action: Imphal, Assam, India

Sher Shah Victoria Cross
Date of Action: 20 January 1945
Place of Action: Kyeyebyin, Kaladan Valley, Burma

Fazal Din
Date of Action: 2 March 1945
Place of Action: Meiktila, Burma

White youths are more likely to believe they are superior to those from other races, and their attitudes are more of a barrier to integration than those of Muslims, a study for the government has found.

The findings turn on its head the current debate about integration, where a succession of cabinet ministers have told Muslims they must do more to fit in.

The study, by the University of Lancaster, was sent to the Home Office in September, and is believed to be the first of its kind comparing levels of intolerance in different communities.

The Lancaster University study, commissioned by the Home Office, examined the attitudes of 435 15-year-olds on race, religion and integration. It also gives an insight into the attitudes they are getting from their parents and other influences such as religion. It found that nearly a third of pupils at a predominantly white school believed one race was superior to another, compared with a tenth from a majority Asian Muslim school and fewer than a fifth at a mixed school.

http://education.guardian.co.uk/raceinschools/story/0,,1929207,00.html

The 1990 Trust :) published a survey which deserves wide dissemination. They found that the number of Muslims who believed acts of terrorism against civilians in the UK were justified was between 1% and 2%. Not good, but less than the 20% or higher found by some newspaper polls. The trust reckons those earlier polls asked a loaded question - and got a highly charged answer.

Parihaka
12 Dec 06,, 00:00
White youths are more likely to believe they are superior to those from other races, and their attitudes are more of a barrier to integration than those of Muslims, a study for the government has found.

The findings turn on its head the current debate about integration, where a succession of cabinet ministers have told Muslims they must do more to fit in.

The study, by the University of Lancaster, was sent to the Home Office in September, and is believed to be the first of its kind comparing levels of intolerance in different communities.

The Lancaster University study, commissioned by the Home Office, examined the attitudes of 435 15-year-olds on race, religion and integration. It also gives an insight into the attitudes they are getting from their parents and other influences such as religion. It found that nearly a third of pupils at a predominantly white school believed one race was superior to another, compared with a tenth from a majority Asian Muslim school and fewer than a fifth at a mixed school.

http://education.guardian.co.uk/raceinschools/story/0,,1929207,00.html

The 1990 Trust :) published a survey which deserves wide dissemination. They found that the number of Muslims who believed acts of terrorism against civilians in the UK were justified was between 1% and 2%. Not good, but less than the 20% or higher found by some newspaper polls. The trust reckons those earlier polls asked a loaded question - and got a highly charged answer.

The problem with this study is that puts the views of pupils from a whites-only school in the most racist section of white British society against the opinions of Muslims from integrated schools i.e. the most integrated and tolerant section of Muslim society.
If it had compared the whites-only pupils attitudes with the Muslim-only school pupils or conversely the attitudes of the integrated white pupils with the integrated Muslim pupils it might have some validity, but if the report you've linked is accurate, the survey is meaningless propoganda.

pdf27
12 Dec 06,, 13:04
By Abul Taher

A GOVERNMENT-BACKED Islamic organisation is teaching young Muslims that dying while fighting for the British armed forces is an act of martyrdom.
The British Muslim Forum (BMF) explains to young people that even if a Muslim soldier dies in combat while fighting in an Islamic country such as Afghanistan, he will still be regarded as a martyr and a hero for this country.
The BMF is holding talks across Britain to persuade young people not to follow the teachings of Muslim extremists who instruct their followers that joining the British military is a “traitorous act”.
Its aim is to counter radicals’ misuse of the term “martyr”, which has become associated with terrorist suicide operations. The BMF was a leading member in a taskforce set up by Tony Blair after the July 7 bombings to combat extremism among Muslims.
In its forums its case workers and imams cite Lance-Corporal Jabron Hashmi, 24, a British Pakistani from Birmingham who was killed in combat in July in Afghanistan.
Islamic extremists have called him a “salaried traitor” as he died fighting Taliban Muslims at the command of non-Muslim generals. They argue he should not have received an Islamic burial as he died an “infidel”.
However, BMF case workers counter that he died a martyr. “We are calling him a martyr because he died fighting for his country. Islam teaches us to be loyal and abide by the laws of the land. We believe fighting for Britain is not being a traitor. And young people are getting the message,” said Khurshid Ahmed, the BMF’s chairman.
The BMF, a body representing 600 mosques, is one of Britain’s largest Muslim organisations. It is the government’s main working partner in the Muslim community.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2496507,00.html

dabong1
12 Dec 06,, 16:07
The problem with this study is that puts the views of pupils from a whites-only school in the most racist section of white British society against the opinions of Muslims from integrated schools i.e. the most integrated and tolerant section of Muslim society.
If it had compared the whites-only pupils attitudes with the Muslim-only school pupils or conversely the attitudes of the integrated white pupils with the integrated Muslim pupils it might have some validity, but if the report you've linked is accurate, the survey is meaningless propoganda.


No you getting confused what it said was a totally muslim school is the most tolerant.Then a mixed school is the second most tolerant and the least tolerant is a totally white school.To put it simple if this had been an anti muslim survey like the one that is being discussed about extremist in britian you would have accepted it without question.The meaningless propoganda is all coming hindu indian's posting nearly all the muslim questions on this forum.
How many hindu indians have fought for britian and died .

pdf27
12 Dec 06,, 16:27
How many hindu indians have fought for britian and died .
Shedloads in both world wars. Note that the Gurkhas were technically part of the Indian army, and are Hindus. The Brigade of Gurkhas is part of the British Army to this day.

dabong1
12 Dec 06,, 16:39
Shedloads in both world wars. Note that the Gurkhas were technically part of the Indian army, and are Hindus. The Brigade of Gurkhas is part of the British Army to this day.



Gurkhas are nepalese .
http://www.army.mod.uk/brigade_of_gurkhas/

pdf27
12 Dec 06,, 17:41
Gurkhas are nepalese .
http://www.army.mod.uk/brigade_of_gurkhas/
Yes, and? In law they were part of the Indian rather than British army, and since Independence their terms of service are governed by an agreement between the British, Indian and IIRC Nepalese governments. During the two world wars they were very definately Indian troops.

dabong1
13 Dec 06,, 21:39
Yes, and? In law they were part of the Indian rather than British army, and since Independence their terms of service are governed by an agreement between the British, Indian and IIRC Nepalese governments. During the two world wars they were very definately Indian troops.


If india went to war against nepal who would the Gurkhas fight for?

kams
13 Dec 06,, 22:02
Gurkhas are nepalese .
http://www.army.mod.uk/brigade_of_gurkhas/

You forgot to add Hindu to Nepalese ;) . Its the Gorkhas who made Nepal a Hindu Kingdom.:biggrin: .

Parihaka
13 Dec 06,, 23:42
No you getting confused what it said was a totally muslim school is the most tolerant.Then a mixed school is the second most tolerant and the least tolerant is a totally white school.
Quite right, I should have read it better.:redface:
My contention still stands however, the survey was undertaken in the home of the BNP, the most white-racist area of the country.
So amend my previous statement to
"If it had compared the whites-only pupils attitudes from the most white racist area of Britain with the Muslim-only school pupils from the most Muslim racist area of Britain, or conversely the attitudes of the integrated white pupils with the integrated Muslim pupils it might have some validity, but if the report you've linked is accurate, the survey is meaningless propaganda."




To put it simple if this had been an anti muslim survey like the one that is being discussed about extremist in britian you would have accepted it without question.
Oh I can assure you I wouldn't


The meaningless propoganda is all coming hindu indian's posting nearly all the muslim questions on this forum.And vice-versa, as the Improving the quality of discussion in the Asian Forum (http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=5596) at WAB will attest.

Archer
14 Dec 06,, 07:48
You forgot to add Hindu to Nepalese ;) . Its the Gorkhas who made Nepal a Hindu Kingdom.:biggrin: .

Dont let facts get in the way of dabongs plaintive wails please. :tongue:

Trooth
14 Dec 06,, 20:54
Muslim extremists are a minority it seems.

Hmm. Interesting article. It screams some numbers but doesn't epxlain where they come from.

45% think there was a conspiracy for 9/11. Interestingly 50% of the same survey thinks Diana, Princess of Wales, was murdered ....


Clearly you cannot add.

Tell me, what is 45% of 2,000,000?

Yep, that's NINE HUNDRED THOUSAND TERRORISTS/EXTREMISTS LIVING IN THE UK RIGHT NOW.(That's um, more than 3x larger than your entire military)

And they're breeding at a rate much faster than the UK majority non-muslims.

Better hope the Muslims never sieze a majority, or you may get your own Darfur up close and personal.

Let me help with some non-tabloid research. Whilst 45% think that there was a conspiracy only 9% think it is acceptable to use violence (here is the full survey http://www.imaginate.uk.com/MCC01_SURVEY/Site%20Download.pdf.

Therefore if we assume all 9% are going to rise up in arms that makes 144,000 thousand (using 1.6m muslims in the UK as quoted by CIA world fact book).

Again a lot of people to get into one place, but not 900,000.

Now i don't know how good this Gfk (the survey of muslims in Britain) are. So using Google i searched for "9/11 conspiracy survey".

The first result i found was from http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll (again i don't know how good they are) which states that 36% of Americans believed that there was a conspiracy in 9/11.

36% !
Yep, that's 108 MILLION TERRORISTS/EXTREMISTS LIVING IN THE US RIGHT NOW.

Is that bigger than US armed forces?

zraver
14 Dec 06,, 21:31
The differance is of course that those 108 million Americans have produced less than a dozen terrorists if we include the abortion bombers, una bomber, Tim Mc veigh etc. The Moslem world has produced at the minimum tens of thousands of such indivuals who unlike America's domestic vareity terrorists use a level of team work, orginisation and saddism to achieve industrial scale muder.

Trooth
15 Dec 06,, 02:14
The differance is of course that those 108 million Americans have produced less than a dozen terrorists if we include the abortion bombers, una bomber, Tim Mc veigh etc. The Moslem world has produced at the minimum tens of thousands of such indivuals who unlike America's domestic vareity terrorists use a level of team work, orginisation and saddism to achieve industrial scale muder.

Just using Snipe's numbers. Those who believe 9/11 is a conspiracy are terrorists.

Ray
17 Dec 06,, 02:43
Gurkhas are nepalese .
http://www.army.mod.uk/brigade_of_gurkhas/

Gurkhas are not merely Nepaleses. There are Indian Gurkhas too. Darjeeling area in North Bengal of India is Gurkhas inhabited.

The British Gurkhas are from Nepal.

The question of India fighting Nepal does not arise, unless Nepal becomes a part of China! I am afraid you are worrying you pretty head a wee too much with fevered imagination.

On the other issue, of how many Indians (Hindus as you put it) died for the British Empire, care to read up military history?

Next, did I hear you state that all Moslem schools are tolerant? Tell it to the Marines.

Islamic issues are being posted by Indians because they have not as yet been afflicted and overcome with the virus that afflicts the west called "Politically Correct". Further, India is the second largest Islam populated country and hence the interest in Islam.

Anything socially incorrect to discuss Islam? It, after all, is the flavour of the century.

gilgamesh
17 Dec 06,, 02:53
If india went to war against nepal who would the Gurkhas fight for?

Gurkhas would get a holiday on both sides. As per law, Gurkas cannot fight against Hindus.

Ray
17 Dec 06,, 17:22
http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1970823,00.html

dabong1
17 Dec 06,, 18:16
Gurkhas are not merely Nepaleses. There are Indian Gurkhas too. Darjeeling area in North Bengal of India is Gurkhas inhabited.

The British Gurkhas are from Nepal.

The question of India fighting Nepal does not arise, unless Nepal becomes a part of China! I am afraid you are worrying you pretty head a wee too much with fevered imagination.

On the other issue, of how many Indians (Hindus as you put it) died for the British Empire, care to read up military history?



Hindu indians did fight in the first and second world war.The point i was trying to make was the amount of muslims and sikh's in the army was a lot bigger then the actual percentage they made in the population.As far as i know 50% of the british indian army was muslim and sikh.But i am pretty sure that the muslims and sikh's did not make 50% of the indian population.




Next, did I hear you state that all Moslem schools are tolerant? Tell it to the Marines.

I am sorry but i do not understand your point.

Islamic issues are being posted by Indians because they have not as yet been afflicted and overcome with the virus that afflicts the west called "Politically Correct". Further, India is the second largest Islam populated country and hence the interest in Islam.
Anything socially incorrect to discuss Islam? It, after all, is the flavour of the century.


Nothing wrong with you discussing islam but at least try to be fair and show both points.

Ray
17 Dec 06,, 18:21
Nothing wrong in discussing anything actually, so long one does not adopt the "uber alles" attitude or daydream justifications belying the facts!

And anyway Islam spun into prominence by its own doing and not mine, if I am permitted to say so!

dabong1
17 Dec 06,, 18:26
You forgot to add Hindu to Nepalese ;) . Its the Gorkhas who made Nepal a Hindu Kingdom.:biggrin: .

Intresting how much it bother's you that i class you as a hindu and not indian.As a matter of fact hindu is a geographical term not a religious one.Please watch

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=5619946571510310036&q=zakir+naik+Islam+and+Hinduism

They talk about where the word hindu came from at 25.35 into the video.

dabong1
17 Dec 06,, 18:29
Gurkhas would get a holiday on both sides. As per law, Gurkas cannot fight against Hindus.


Yeah but if a muslim indian said to you he will not fight pakistani muslims as per islamic law he can not you would class him as a traitor or am i wrong?

Ray
17 Dec 06,, 18:37
Yeah but if a muslim indian said to you he will not fight pakistani muslims as per islamic law he can not you would class him as a traitor or am i wrong?

Fortunately we are yet to see such an Indian Moslem.

Indian Moslems have won the PVC ( equivalent to the Victoria Cross).

Such Indian Moslems I reckon would be in the Mosques and not in the Army! I sure hope that clears your misconception of Indian Moslems. They are are class apart from non Indian Moslems. Please don't construe that non Indian Moslems are not loyal to their own nations either!

For Christ's sake, don't think Moslem is some creature totally apart from normal homo spaiens!

A penny for your thoughts!

Economist
17 Dec 06,, 18:47
Fortunately we are yet to see such an Indian Moslem.

Indian Moslems have won the PVC ( equivalent to the Victoria Cross).

Such Indian Moslems I reckon would be in the Mosques and not in the Army! I sure hope that clears your misconception of Indian Moslems. They are are class apart from non Indian Moslems. Please don't construe that non Indian Moslems are not loyal to their own nations either!

For Christ's sake, don't think Moslem is some creature totally apart from normal homo spaiens!

A penny for your thoughts!

The first soldier to die from Delhi during Kargil was a muslim.

Captain Hanifudin.

dabong1
17 Dec 06,, 19:35
Fortunately we are yet to see such an Indian Moslem.

Indian Moslems have won the PVC ( equivalent to the Victoria Cross).

Such Indian Moslems I reckon would be in the Mosques and not in the Army! I sure hope that clears your misconception of Indian Moslems. They are are class apart from non Indian Moslems. Please don't construe that non Indian Moslems are not loyal to their own nations either!

For Christ's sake, don't think Moslem is some creature totally apart from normal homo spaiens!

A penny for your thoughts!


My question was directed to gilgamesh who said . "As per law, Gurkas cannot fight against Hindus".Gurkas being hindu to.

Ray
17 Dec 06,, 19:56
Dabong,

Isn't it an interesting commentary that there are no Hindus in the Pak military. I gather there is but only one Sikh. Haven't heard of Christians either. Any of the handful of Karachi Jews?

It speaks highly of the Pak military that it is so representative of its population wherein the minorities are conspicious by their absence. Could it be a lack of trust?

Fortunately, the same is not the case with India!

Moslems, Jews and Christians and Sikhs have held the top ranks of the military including the Chief!

That is justice and fairplay apart from trust that Indian minorities are truly Indians and there is no suspicion either!