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troung
16 Aug 06,, 05:27
How many F-16s does Hezbollah have?



By Ayaz Amir


"THE Lebanese prime minister was forced to cry before media because of weak defence capability of his country and no such thing would be allowed to happen with Pakistan." This piece of wisdom comes from Pakistan's air force chief, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed.

As silly statements go, it takes the prize.

Despite its huge army, Pakistan has shown itself incapable of fighting a war for longer than 15 days. Barely halfway through the 1965 war Pakistan's straw field marshal, Ayub Khan, had had enough. He was desperate for a ceasefire. In 1971Gen Yahya and his generals fought a 17-day war and managed to lose half the country.

In 1999 the architects of Kargil as choice a bunch of military geniuses as any produced by the Pakistan army -- thought they were walking in the footsteps of Rommel and Manstein. They soon realized they had bitten off more than they could chew. Desperate for a way out, they urged then Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to rush to Washington to seek a face-saving withdrawal.

Given these shining military exploits it ill-behoves a Pakistani military man to speak disparagingly about Lebanon when Lebanon -- a country scarcely bigger than Sargodha and Rawalpindi divisions combined -- has shown more guts than we can imagine.

Hezbollah has no F-16s, no anti-aircraft defences to speak of, yet it has fought the might of the Israeli army for four weeks and continues to stand up to it. No Arab army has shown as much grit, none has fought Israel this long. And far from Hezbollah breaking, it is Israel which is getting stuck in South Lebanon.

An air force chief is a responsible person. He should choose his words more carefully. Pakistan has not had the courage or decency to condemn Israel in forthright terms, our government mumbling things no one can understand and adopting a position no one can see. When we can't do the honourable thing, why say things which make us look stupid?

Pakistan has acquired international fame for being a one-phone-call country, a single Colin Powell call after Sep 11 eliciting all the concessions the US wanted, including the use of military bases. Our military government felt no qualms about handing over the Taliban's accredited ambassador to Islamabad, Mullah Zaeef, to the Americans when they attacked Afghanistan.

Zaeef may have been Hitler's ambassador but he was accredited to us and we were sworn under international law to protect him. We didn't. What moral authority do we have to speak about the troubles of another country?

Addressing Arab League foreign ministers in Beirut, the Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora was overcome by emotion when speaking of Israel's aggression against his country. When was the last time a Pakistani leader was overcome by similar emotion?

We are a country at peace with Afghanistan one day and then, at the crack of a whip from Washington, involved in its destruction the next, glorifying Kashmir's freedom struggle and then overnight dancing to India's tune. India has turned the composite dialogue into a joke and yet by every word and gesture at our command we are trying to please India.

To get an idea of the battle picture in South Lebanon turn not to BBC or CNN, both little better than apologists for the Israeli army. Read the Israeli press, especially Haaretz (www.haaretz.com). More and more Israelis while still in favour of the war are questioning the way it is being conducted. The swift victory they were led to believe in has turned out to be a mirage. The Israeli army has taken heavy casualties and Hezbollah is still raining rockets on northern Israel.

As a sign of how the war is faring, Maj Gen Udi Adam, GOC Northern Command, has been replaced by Maj Gen Moshe Kaplinsky. The security cabinet has decided, after an agonizing debate, to expand the offensive in South Lebanon. Sounds suspiciously like a reinforcing of failure.

Fifteen IDF soldiers were killed on Wednesday, … "in a series of firefights across the front…" as Haaretz reports. "Twentyfive soldiers were wounded in Wednesday's actions, six seriously."

Here's another excerpt: "At around 1:40 P.M., an IDF Merkava tank was struck by an explosive device in the village of Aita al-Shaab in the western sector. The tank's four crew members were killed instantly…The kind of damage sustained by the tank (its turret was blown off) appears to indicate that the vehicle was hit by a large explosive device, but a senior Northern Command officer told Haaretz on Wednesday night that it was more likely that the Merkava had been hit by an anti-tank missile.

"Efforts to extract the tank and four dead crew members took place under heavy fire, and continued late into Wednesday night.

"The day's harshest incident occured at 2:00 P.M. when one or two anti-tank missiles were fired at an IDF force that had occupied a house in Debel. The missile strike left nine soldiers dead, including two who died on their way to the hospital, and 11 wounded, including three seriously…

"Rescue efforts again were severely hampered by intense Hezbollah gunfire."

And then tellingly: "Commanders in the sector said Wednesday night that Hezbollah guerrillas were closely following the movement of Israeli forces. They said the group is analyzing the IDF's firing positions, and doing a good job of pinpointing those locations where the forces are exposed."

This should give a flavour of the fighting. Israel has not faced anything of the kind in its entire history. Regular Arab armies it has beaten black and blue, brought Arab countries to their knees after a few days of fighting. This is different because Israel is being compelled to fight a war whose tactics are being dictated by the enemy -- Hezbollah. Israel can push in as many troops as it likes. It will face more guerrilla attacks.

This looks like the emergence of the Middle East's second Vietnam, the first being Iraq. The Americans thought their occupation of Iraq would be a smooth affair. They now know better. The Israelis thought they would vanquish Hezbollah swiftly. There have been surprises in store for them.

Only the gullible think that the kidnapping of the two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah is what triggered this war. There is a growing body of evidence to show that Israel had planned this assault for a long time. That it hasn't turned out the way it figured is a different matter.

What we don't know is what the Bush administration is up to. For all we know it could be preparing to bomb Iran. Mind-boggling thought but the war party in Washington is capable of anything.

But enough to drive one to despair is the utter helplessness of the Muslim world. A rabbit wouldn't be more transfixed by the headlights of a car as Arab and Muslim leaders are by the threat of American power. No one is saying they should send their armies in aid of Hezbollah. But at least they can speak out louder than they have so far.

Time was when Zulfikar Ali Bhutto sent Pakistani fighter pilots to Syria during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war ( a mistake I can't imagine Air Chief Marshal Tanvir making in a hurry), something which the Syrians have not forgotten. Now we can't even bring ourselves to say the right words about Lebanon. These are not proud days to be a Pakistani.

Hezbollah has no F-16s but it is running rings around one of the best armies in the world. We can have 500 F-16s in our air force but given the crisis of resolve we face, we will remain a country ready to jump at the sound of a single phone call.

Tronic
16 Aug 06,, 06:06
this should go in the mid-east section, no?

Maxor
16 Aug 06,, 13:07
How many F-16s does Hezbollah have?



By Ayaz Amir


"THE Lebanese prime minister was forced to cry before media because of weak defence capability of his country and no such thing would be allowed to happen with Pakistan." This piece of wisdom comes from Pakistan's air force chief, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed.

As silly statements go, it takes the prize.

Despite its huge army, Pakistan has shown itself incapable of fighting a war for longer than 15 days. Barely halfway through the 1965 war Pakistan's straw field marshal, Ayub Khan, had had enough. He was desperate for a ceasefire. In 1971Gen Yahya and his generals fought a 17-day war and managed to lose half the country.

In 1999 the architects of Kargil as choice a bunch of military geniuses as any produced by the Pakistan army -- thought they were walking in the footsteps of Rommel and Manstein. They soon realized they had bitten off more than they could chew. Desperate for a way out, they urged then Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to rush to Washington to seek a face-saving withdrawal.

Given these shining military exploits it ill-behoves a Pakistani military man to speak disparagingly about Lebanon when Lebanon -- a country scarcely bigger than Sargodha and Rawalpindi divisions combined -- has shown more guts than we can imagine.

Hezbollah has no F-16s, no anti-aircraft defences to speak of, yet it has fought the might of the Israeli army for four weeks and continues to stand up to it. No Arab army has shown as much grit, none has fought Israel this long. And far from Hezbollah breaking, it is Israel which is getting stuck in South Lebanon.

An air force chief is a responsible person. He should choose his words more carefully. Pakistan has not had the courage or decency to condemn Israel in forthright terms, our government mumbling things no one can understand and adopting a position no one can see. When we can't do the honourable thing, why say things which make us look stupid?

Pakistan has acquired international fame for being a one-phone-call country, a single Colin Powell call after Sep 11 eliciting all the concessions the US wanted, including the use of military bases. Our military government felt no qualms about handing over the Taliban's accredited ambassador to Islamabad, Mullah Zaeef, to the Americans when they attacked Afghanistan.

Zaeef may have been Hitler's ambassador but he was accredited to us and we were sworn under international law to protect him. We didn't. What moral authority do we have to speak about the troubles of another country?

Addressing Arab League foreign ministers in Beirut, the Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora was overcome by emotion when speaking of Israel's aggression against his country. When was the last time a Pakistani leader was overcome by similar emotion?

We are a country at peace with Afghanistan one day and then, at the crack of a whip from Washington, involved in its destruction the next, glorifying Kashmir's freedom struggle and then overnight dancing to India's tune. India has turned the composite dialogue into a joke and yet by every word and gesture at our command we are trying to please India.

To get an idea of the battle picture in South Lebanon turn not to BBC or CNN, both little better than apologists for the Israeli army. Read the Israeli press, especially Haaretz (www.haaretz.com). More and more Israelis while still in favour of the war are questioning the way it is being conducted. The swift victory they were led to believe in has turned out to be a mirage. The Israeli army has taken heavy casualties and Hezbollah is still raining rockets on northern Israel.

As a sign of how the war is faring, Maj Gen Udi Adam, GOC Northern Command, has been replaced by Maj Gen Moshe Kaplinsky. The security cabinet has decided, after an agonizing debate, to expand the offensive in South Lebanon. Sounds suspiciously like a reinforcing of failure.

Fifteen IDF soldiers were killed on Wednesday, … "in a series of firefights across the front…" as Haaretz reports. "Twentyfive soldiers were wounded in Wednesday's actions, six seriously."

Here's another excerpt: "At around 1:40 P.M., an IDF Merkava tank was struck by an explosive device in the village of Aita al-Shaab in the western sector. The tank's four crew members were killed instantly…The kind of damage sustained by the tank (its turret was blown off) appears to indicate that the vehicle was hit by a large explosive device, but a senior Northern Command officer told Haaretz on Wednesday night that it was more likely that the Merkava had been hit by an anti-tank missile.

"Efforts to extract the tank and four dead crew members took place under heavy fire, and continued late into Wednesday night.

"The day's harshest incident occured at 2:00 P.M. when one or two anti-tank missiles were fired at an IDF force that had occupied a house in Debel. The missile strike left nine soldiers dead, including two who died on their way to the hospital, and 11 wounded, including three seriously…

"Rescue efforts again were severely hampered by intense Hezbollah gunfire."

And then tellingly: "Commanders in the sector said Wednesday night that Hezbollah guerrillas were closely following the movement of Israeli forces. They said the group is analyzing the IDF's firing positions, and doing a good job of pinpointing those locations where the forces are exposed."

This should give a flavour of the fighting. Israel has not faced anything of the kind in its entire history. Regular Arab armies it has beaten black and blue, brought Arab countries to their knees after a few days of fighting. This is different because Israel is being compelled to fight a war whose tactics are being dictated by the enemy -- Hezbollah. Israel can push in as many troops as it likes. It will face more guerrilla attacks.

This looks like the emergence of the Middle East's second Vietnam, the first being Iraq. The Americans thought their occupation of Iraq would be a smooth affair. They now know better. The Israelis thought they would vanquish Hezbollah swiftly. There have been surprises in store for them.

Only the gullible think that the kidnapping of the two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah is what triggered this war. There is a growing body of evidence to show that Israel had planned this assault for a long time. That it hasn't turned out the way it figured is a different matter.

What we don't know is what the Bush administration is up to. For all we know it could be preparing to bomb Iran. Mind-boggling thought but the war party in Washington is capable of anything.

But enough to drive one to despair is the utter helplessness of the Muslim world. A rabbit wouldn't be more transfixed by the headlights of a car as Arab and Muslim leaders are by the threat of American power. No one is saying they should send their armies in aid of Hezbollah. But at least they can speak out louder than they have so far.

Time was when Zulfikar Ali Bhutto sent Pakistani fighter pilots to Syria during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war ( a mistake I can't imagine Air Chief Marshal Tanvir making in a hurry), something which the Syrians have not forgotten. Now we can't even bring ourselves to say the right words about Lebanon. These are not proud days to be a Pakistani.

Hezbollah has no F-16s but it is running rings around one of the best armies in the world. We can have 500 F-16s in our air force but given the crisis of resolve we face, we will remain a country ready to jump at the sound of a single phone call.


Of course israel has had this planned for a long time, During times of peace every nation on the planet sets up possible war senarios against its likely enimies and even its not so likely ones. When a group has been launching mortar and rocket fire into your country for years you have long term plans to attack them.

I also love how hezbollah is claiming this as a victory. In most conflicts when your sides losses total 800+ at lowest esimate killed and the other looses less than 100 you hardly claim victory. I'm fairly sure Israel wasn't trying to occupy all of Lebanon again. It is far more likely that the intention is to disturpt and destroy as many hezbollah operations as possible and force them to move the rocket launching sites to less favorable positions. Hezbollah destroyed a few tanks (fewer than 10), Lost a fair amount of strategic ground, had a fairly large number of fighters killed and munitions seized, Israel doesn't even have to patrol the territory to keep the guerrillas out of it; supposedly Lebanon and a multinational force will do that. It is true that because the guerillas were not wearing uniforms and hiding amoung civiliains they could claim that the israeli army was less effective against them than in other anti-arab conflicts of the past.

sparten
17 Aug 06,, 13:56
How many F-16s does Hezbollah have?



By Ayaz Amir


"THE Lebanese prime minister was forced to cry before media because of weak defence capability of his country and no such thing would be allowed to happen with Pakistan." This piece of wisdom comes from Pakistan's air force chief, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed.

As silly statements go, it takes the prize.

Despite its huge army, Pakistan has shown itself incapable of fighting a war for longer than 15 days. Barely halfway through the 1965 war Pakistan's straw field marshal, Ayub Khan, had had enough. He was desperate for a ceasefire. In 1971Gen Yahya and his generals fought a 17-day war and managed to lose half the country.

In 1999 the architects of Kargil as choice a bunch of military geniuses as any produced by the Pakistan army -- thought they were walking in the footsteps of Rommel and Manstein. They soon realized they had bitten off more than they could chew. Desperate for a way out, they urged then Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to rush to Washington to seek a face-saving withdrawal.

Given these shining military exploits it ill-behoves a Pakistani military man to speak disparagingly about Lebanon when Lebanon -- a country scarcely bigger than Sargodha and Rawalpindi divisions combined -- has shown more guts than we can imagine.

Hezbollah has no F-16s, no anti-aircraft defences to speak of, yet it has fought the might of the Israeli army for four weeks and continues to stand up to it. No Arab army has shown as much grit, none has fought Israel this long. And far from Hezbollah breaking, it is Israel which is getting stuck in South Lebanon.

An air force chief is a responsible person. He should choose his words more carefully. Pakistan has not had the courage or decency to condemn Israel in forthright terms, our government mumbling things no one can understand and adopting a position no one can see. When we can't do the honourable thing, why say things which make us look stupid?

Pakistan has acquired international fame for being a one-phone-call country, a single Colin Powell call after Sep 11 eliciting all the concessions the US wanted, including the use of military bases. Our military government felt no qualms about handing over the Taliban's accredited ambassador to Islamabad, Mullah Zaeef, to the Americans when they attacked Afghanistan.

Zaeef may have been Hitler's ambassador but he was accredited to us and we were sworn under international law to protect him. We didn't. What moral authority do we have to speak about the troubles of another country?

Addressing Arab League foreign ministers in Beirut, the Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora was overcome by emotion when speaking of Israel's aggression against his country. When was the last time a Pakistani leader was overcome by similar emotion?

We are a country at peace with Afghanistan one day and then, at the crack of a whip from Washington, involved in its destruction the next, glorifying Kashmir's freedom struggle and then overnight dancing to India's tune. India has turned the composite dialogue into a joke and yet by every word and gesture at our command we are trying to please India.

To get an idea of the battle picture in South Lebanon turn not to BBC or CNN, both little better than apologists for the Israeli army. Read the Israeli press, especially Haaretz (www.haaretz.com). More and more Israelis while still in favour of the war are questioning the way it is being conducted. The swift victory they were led to believe in has turned out to be a mirage. The Israeli army has taken heavy casualties and Hezbollah is still raining rockets on northern Israel.

As a sign of how the war is faring, Maj Gen Udi Adam, GOC Northern Command, has been replaced by Maj Gen Moshe Kaplinsky. The security cabinet has decided, after an agonizing debate, to expand the offensive in South Lebanon. Sounds suspiciously like a reinforcing of failure.

Fifteen IDF soldiers were killed on Wednesday, … "in a series of firefights across the front…" as Haaretz reports. "Twentyfive soldiers were wounded in Wednesday's actions, six seriously."

Here's another excerpt: "At around 1:40 P.M., an IDF Merkava tank was struck by an explosive device in the village of Aita al-Shaab in the western sector. The tank's four crew members were killed instantly…The kind of damage sustained by the tank (its turret was blown off) appears to indicate that the vehicle was hit by a large explosive device, but a senior Northern Command officer told Haaretz on Wednesday night that it was more likely that the Merkava had been hit by an anti-tank missile.

"Efforts to extract the tank and four dead crew members took place under heavy fire, and continued late into Wednesday night.

"The day's harshest incident occured at 2:00 P.M. when one or two anti-tank missiles were fired at an IDF force that had occupied a house in Debel. The missile strike left nine soldiers dead, including two who died on their way to the hospital, and 11 wounded, including three seriously…

"Rescue efforts again were severely hampered by intense Hezbollah gunfire."

And then tellingly: "Commanders in the sector said Wednesday night that Hezbollah guerrillas were closely following the movement of Israeli forces. They said the group is analyzing the IDF's firing positions, and doing a good job of pinpointing those locations where the forces are exposed."

This should give a flavour of the fighting. Israel has not faced anything of the kind in its entire history. Regular Arab armies it has beaten black and blue, brought Arab countries to their knees after a few days of fighting. This is different because Israel is being compelled to fight a war whose tactics are being dictated by the enemy -- Hezbollah. Israel can push in as many troops as it likes. It will face more guerrilla attacks.

This looks like the emergence of the Middle East's second Vietnam, the first being Iraq. The Americans thought their occupation of Iraq would be a smooth affair. They now know better. The Israelis thought they would vanquish Hezbollah swiftly. There have been surprises in store for them.

Only the gullible think that the kidnapping of the two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah is what triggered this war. There is a growing body of evidence to show that Israel had planned this assault for a long time. That it hasn't turned out the way it figured is a different matter.

What we don't know is what the Bush administration is up to. For all we know it could be preparing to bomb Iran. Mind-boggling thought but the war party in Washington is capable of anything.

But enough to drive one to despair is the utter helplessness of the Muslim world. A rabbit wouldn't be more transfixed by the headlights of a car as Arab and Muslim leaders are by the threat of American power. No one is saying they should send their armies in aid of Hezbollah. But at least they can speak out louder than they have so far.

Time was when Zulfikar Ali Bhutto sent Pakistani fighter pilots to Syria during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war ( a mistake I can't imagine Air Chief Marshal Tanvir making in a hurry), something which the Syrians have not forgotten. Now we can't even bring ourselves to say the right words about Lebanon. These are not proud days to be a Pakistani.

Hezbollah has no F-16s but it is running rings around one of the best armies in the world. We can have 500 F-16s in our air force but given the crisis of resolve we face, we will remain a country ready to jump at the sound of a single phone call.
This from a gentleman who was court martialed and thrown out of the army!

lemontree
17 Aug 06,, 13:59
This from a gentleman who was court martialed and thrown out of the army!
What was the charge on him?

Archer
17 Aug 06,, 14:12
Well if he stood up like that to the military oligarchy, no wonder.

Lahori paa jee
17 Aug 06,, 16:31
This from a gentleman who was court martialed and thrown out of the army!

Who gave you this information Sparten?

Lemme correct you.................You are wrong.

Ayaz Amir was not court martialed. Was two batch junior to Mush. He left army and joined civil service. Has even served in Russia as a diplomate.

I say this cause i know alot about him and he is a very close friend of my dad

Another connection is PML-N

sparten
17 Aug 06,, 18:00
What was the charge on him?
Officially IIRC it was being drunk on duty, but from what I have read it was more serious.

And Lahori, you cannot get release unless you have served 8 years, otherwise you have to pay the cost of your training. Which runs into amountd that Mr Amir could not have hoped to fulfill in 1967.

Ray
17 Aug 06,, 20:11
In Pakistan Army, it appears any excuse will do.

When you are to be court martialled, all you have to do is whistle up lackeys, organise a coup and become the President.

If indeed he was dsmissed for being drunk on duty, it is a weak charge for dismissal (unless of course the Sharia is invoked). If it is a repeated offence, then it is a different matter.

If there were more serious charges and it was not proferred, then it show the height of moral corruption of the Pakistani Army legal system.

BTW cost of training is not astromomical. Given the money that the elite has in Pakistan, anyone could have afforded it. Are you suggesting he came from a slum? If so, I congratulate slum dwellers of Pakistan for the excellence they show in writing English, if not Urdu.

However, as far as his statement that Pakistan cannot fight for more than 15 days is concerned, it is not because the Pakistani Armed forces is useless, it is because the economy of Pakistan and its military hardware reserves cannot sustain a war beyond 15 days. No reflection can be drawn to the prowess of the military machine of Pakistan because it cannot fight beyond 15 days.

Jay
17 Aug 06,, 20:26
Ayaz Amir was cort martialled? AFAIK they call him a Retd Pakistani Officer. Do you have any source to corroborate your news?

Lahori paa jee
17 Aug 06,, 22:19
And Lahori, you cannot get release unless you have served 8 years, otherwise you have to pay the cost of your training. Which runs into amountd that Mr Amir could not have hoped to fulfill in 1967.

His full name is Chaudhry Ayaz Amir and his father was one of the few well to do people of Chakwal.

He was not court martialed.

lemontree
18 Aug 06,, 05:16
Officially IIRC it was being drunk on duty, but from what I have read it was more serious.

Being drunk on duty is by far a weak crime/ charge, so Ayaz Amir's comments can be given the benifit of doubt. But being a command failure twice in one decade like Musharraf (1987 loss of Bilafonda la and 1999 Kargil), leaves no doubt about a persons military acumen or the lack of it.

What reflects incompetence? ..its for you to judge.

Ray
18 Aug 06,, 08:00
LT,

Musharraf survived because it appears he is better at politics than soldiering.

One has grant him that he is sharp Joe, in that he has kept himself afloat inspite of all contradictions of Pakistan polity.

He cobbled the govt by creating rifts in the parent parties, appeased the Mullahs, played footsie with Bush, cooled the Indians and at the same time released the terrorists.

So, we must give Mush credit for being the most adroit politician.

lemontree
18 Aug 06,, 08:19
So, we must give Mush credit for being the most adroit politician.
Sir,
That he is.

Lahori paa jee
08 Sep 06,, 08:54
And Lahori, you cannot get release unless you have served 8 years, otherwise you have to pay the cost of your training. Which runs into amountd that Mr Amir could not have hoped to fulfill in 1967.

Sparten,

I sent an email to Ayaz Amir a few days back just to verify if indeed he was court martialed or not (as far as i know he was not). Though he did not reply to my mail (which was obvious) but he has written something about how he left army in his article (http://dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm)


The circus of the holy fathers

If I had been given an award, not that anyone is thinking on those lines, I wouldn’t have been in such a hurry to return it. After I left the army in 1973 I received by post a medal from GHQ which, when I made enquiries, I was told was for participation in the 1971 war. (Some war to receive a medal for.) It must still be lying around somewhere. A Sitara-i-Imtiaz can’t be much worse than that.

Ray
08 Sep 06,, 19:26
this should go in the mid-east section, no?

No.

It is based on a comment by the PAF Chief.

And Ayaz Amir's contention revolves around how lackey like is the Pakistani administration.

Ray
08 Sep 06,, 19:29
This from a gentleman who was court martialed and thrown out of the army!

He was never court martialled and that was clarified in the Pakistani Forces Forum if I not mistaken.

And anyway, keep to the topic. Indicate where what Amir has said is incorrect.

I am afraid what he has said cannot be refuted by you and so you go for character assassination!

Good lawyer, this much I will concede!:biggrin:

YellowFever
12 Sep 06,, 07:35
He was never court martialled and that was clarified in the Pakistani Forces Forum if I not mistaken.

And anyway, keep to the topic. Indicate where what Amir has said is incorrect.

I am afraid what he has said cannot be refuted by you and so you go for character assassination!

Good lawyer, this much I will concede!:biggrin:

I disagree, Ray.
I cannot speak to the gentleman's military career because I've never heard of him before but if he thinks Hezbollah "ran circles" around the Israel military, he's obviously mistaken.

Judging by all the reports I've read, it sounds like the Jews dished out better than it received.

We live in a very weird and funny world where one side hides behind civilians, gets their asses kicked, and then most "knowledgable" people declare them the victor.

Repatriated Canuck
18 Sep 06,, 11:38
I disagree, Ray.
I cannot speak to the gentleman's military career because I've never heard of him before but if he thinks Hezbollah "ran circles" around the Israel military, he's obviously mistaken.

Judging by all the reports I've read, it sounds like the Jews dished out better than it received.

We live in a very weird and funny world where one side hides behind civilians, gets their asses kicked, and then most "knowledgable" people declare them the victor.


No kidding the Israelies killed far more fighters than they had lost yet they lose? In a fist fight as an example I would call they guy with all his teeth the winner. :rolleyes: