PDA

View Full Version : UK foils terrorist plot



smilingassassin
10 Aug 06,, 08:56
http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopStories/ContentPosting.aspx?newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20060810% 2fbritain_plane_060810&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V2&showbyline=True

British police say they've broken up an alleged plot to blow up an aircraft in mid-flight between the United States and the United Kingdom using explosives smuggled in hand luggage.

The plan was to use explosives carried aboard in hand luggage, police said Thursday.

They have made at least 18 arrests in London. The matter has been the subject of a counter-terrorism investigation that lasted for several months, according to a Metropolitan Police statement.

Police haven't released any information yet as to whether the suspects have ties to any particular group.

Authorities have bolstered security at all of Britain's airports.

The British Department of Transport has banned hand luggage. One will only be able to take aboard things like wallets, and then only in a transparent plastic bag.

Electronic devices arere completely banned.

"We hope that these measures, which are being kept under review by the government, will need to be in place for a limited period only," the department's statement said.

Meanwhile, Britain's Home Office has declared the country's security threat level to be "critical."

That means the government expects an imminent terrorist attack.

The five-point scale runs from low to critical. The threat level had been described as "severe" prior to Thursday's announcement.

With files from The Associated Press

TopHatter
10 Aug 06,, 12:49
Nice work lads :cool:

SLASH
10 Aug 06,, 14:01
Hats off to scotland yard.They've proved again why they're the best security agency in the world. :)

AchtungSpitFire
10 Aug 06,, 14:55
MI5 you mean.

Bluesman
10 Aug 06,, 15:35
Bet it was them dam' Catholics again. No end of trouble with that lot. :rolleyes:

ainspiron
10 Aug 06,, 15:47
U.K.: The Thwarted Airline Bombing Plot (http://www.stratfor.com/products/premium/read_article.php?id=272080 )
August 10, 2006 13 00 GMT
Quote:

Summary

British authorities Aug. 10 thwarted a militant Islamist plot to attack multiple U.S.-bound passenger jets flying out of London. The arrests indicate that London continues to be a major nerve center of operations for jihadists trying to attack the West, particularly aimed at the United States. The disruption of this plot by no means is an indication that the threat has dissipated, and Britain will remain vulnerable to the jihadist threat for the foreseeable future.

Analysis

Authorities in the United Kingdom arrested 21 suspected Islamist militants, mostly British citizens of Pakistani origin, in and around London and Birmingham on Aug. 10, accusing them of involvement in a major plot to blow up nine mid-air flights bound for New York, Washington, D.C., and California through explosives concealed in carry-on luggage. The British government also elevated the terror threat level to its highest level, "critical," while London's Heathrow Airport was shut down. In the United States, meanwhile, the Department of Homeland Security took the unprecedented step of raising the threat level for commercial flights originating in the United Kingdom to "severe," or red. A senior Bush administration official said the intelligence on the foiled plot points to "very strong al Qaeda links."

The disruption of this plot, which British authorities have described as a "very significant" one that could have resulted in "mass murder," shows the United Kingdom continues to be a major staging ground for al Qaeda jihadists in their attempts to carry out strikes in the West, especially the United States. Given that Britain is home to a large Muslim community, which is predominantly of Pakistani origin, al Qaeda's global headquarters is based in northwest Pakistan, and that London is the largest hub of radical Islamism in the West, the United Kingdom will remain as the main point of vulnerability for jihadist attacks inside the West.

This is because al-Qaeda handlers, operatives, and potential recruits enjoy freedom of movement between Southwest Asia and North America. This plot and its disruption took place a little more than a year after the July 7 attacks against London's transit system, which did not produce the desired effect for al Qaeda. The apex al Qaeda leadership is in need of a much more spectacular attack in the West and, in keeping with its obsessive fixation on attacks involving commercial aircraft, this would have been the major feat al Qaeda likely sought. Moreover, this plot shows that while the actual cell members have been put out of commission, al Qaeda's managers entrusted with the responsibility of overseeing operations in country remain very much at large.

What further fuels this type of militancy is growing anti-American sentiments within the West, especially in Muslim communities. Indigenous Muslim groups in Western countries promote such discourse and are facilitated by the general rise in public opinion against U.S. foreign policies toward the Arab/Muslim world, which in turn allow for the creation of a large pool of Islamist radicals for al Qaeda to tap into, and shape them into potential militants.

Given the deep-rooted nature of the problem, U.S., British and other Western governments will likely effect tougher immigration and travel restrictions against even their own citizens who hail from Muslims backgrounds, with those of Pakistani heritage on the top of the list. Such policies will be difficult to out into operation, given the complexity of enacting such legislation. Hence, it will be a while before such laws make it into the books. In any case, U.S., Canadian and EU citizenship held by people of Arab and Muslim origin will continue to be a point of vulnerability for security in the West.

Dreadnought
10 Aug 06,, 16:23
So once all are caught perhaps we should send them on one last flight and detonate it midway between countries the same way they wished to. ;)

Hats off to the Brits for catching this before another tragedy took place. :redface:

Bluesman
10 Aug 06,, 16:31
WOW! ISLAMISTS, huh?!? Who could have seen THAT comin'?

Well, have we had enough YET, or is it going to actually take a nuke in the Western Hemisphere to make us face it squarely?

WORSE than 9/11, had it actually come off. I just don't think we're all facing reality, here, and perhaps Ned Lamont and all his voters would like to describe how their plans of better day care is going to retard the advance of radical Islam.

We're running out of time. Playing defense will not work forever.

Bluesman
10 Aug 06,, 16:34
So once all are caught perhaps we should send them on one last flight and detonate it midway between countries the same way they wished to. ;)

Hats off to the Brits for catching this before another tragedy took place. :redface:

Won't help. These guys do not fear their own deaths...they welcome it.

They fear one thing, and one thing only: the failure of their cause. They look at our fleets and airpower and armies and are not much impressed. We're going to have to get as radical as they are before this is all over, and there is simply no will to do that...yet. By the time there is, we may be in an unrecoverable position.

We COULD lose this war.

Officer of Engineers
10 Aug 06,, 16:39
I cannot see us losing this war, MSgt. We may not be the ones who will win it in the end but we will not be the ones losing it either. As I stated before, the East Europeans, particularily the Russians are more than ready and more brutal than the Nazi-Islamists dare ever dream of. It won't take much to set them off on their own genocide.

Dreadnought
10 Aug 06,, 17:27
Won't help. These guys do not fear their own deaths...they welcome it.

They fear one thing, and one thing only: the failure of their cause. They look at our fleets and airpower and armies and are not much impressed. We're going to have to get as radical as they are before this is all over, and there is simply no will to do that...yet. By the time there is, we may be in an unrecoverable position.

We COULD lose this war.

To clarify Blues we should show them that we value their lives as little as they do themselves and their efforts shall result in their deaths irregardless of what "martyr" status they see themselves as.

Tronic
10 Aug 06,, 18:18
I cannot see us losing this war, MSgt. We may not be the ones who will win it in the end but we will not be the ones losing it either. As I stated before, the East Europeans, particularily the Russians are more than ready and more brutal than the Nazi-Islamists dare ever dream of. It won't take much to set them off on their own genocide.
sir, that is one reason why I hugely admire Putin... he has that, 'don't fuk with us or else...' attitude... The best thing I would like to see happen to these terrorists is being cut piece by piece alive... torture is worse then death... lets give these bloody terrorists the same taste of agony and pain they bring upon the civillians of this world...

Bill
10 Aug 06,, 18:35
http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopStories/ContentPosting.aspx?newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20060810% 2fbritain_plane_060810&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V2&showbyline=True

British police say they've broken up an alleged plot to blow up an aircraft in mid-flight between the United States and the United Kingdom using explosives smuggled in hand luggage.

The plan was to use explosives carried aboard in hand luggage, police said Thursday.

They have made at least 18 arrests in London. The matter has been the subject of a counter-terrorism investigation that lasted for several months, according to a Metropolitan Police statement.

Police haven't released any information yet as to whether the suspects have ties to any particular group.

Authorities have bolstered security at all of Britain's airports.

The British Department of Transport has banned hand luggage. One will only be able to take aboard things like wallets, and then only in a transparent plastic bag.

Electronic devices arere completely banned.

"We hope that these measures, which are being kept under review by the government, will need to be in place for a limited period only," the department's statement said.

Meanwhile, Britain's Home Office has declared the country's security threat level to be "critical."

That means the government expects an imminent terrorist attack.

The five-point scale runs from low to critical. The threat level had been described as "severe" prior to Thursday's announcement.

With files from The Associated Press

I don't think you guys are grasping the enormity of this incident.

The terror plot was not to down one aircraft in flight....but to down TWENTY FOUR aircraft in flight at once!

And 29 of the 50 conspiritors are still on the loose.

SO tell me again conspirist dueche bags about how 9-11 was faked...

Bill
10 Aug 06,, 18:38
I cannot see us losing this war, MSgt. We may not be the ones who will win it in the end but we will not be the ones losing it either. As I stated before, the East Europeans, particularily the Russians are more than ready and more brutal than the Nazi-Islamists dare ever dream of. It won't take much to set them off on their own genocide.

I predict we WILL lose this war, and just like Vietnam, we'll lose it from the INSIDE OUT.

We're already well on the way to doing just that...

Bill
10 Aug 06,, 18:39
We're going to have to get as radical as they are before this is all over, and there is simply no will to do that...yet.

Glad to see you sliding over to my way of thinking.

We need to get W.T. Sherman on thier collective Islamist asses.

Now.

Tronic
10 Aug 06,, 18:45
yes. World War 3 is already underway... it is about time ALL the nations realize that and stop wussing out... this is war and we are not the ones that have declared it...

dalem
10 Aug 06,, 18:53
Question:

Why airliners again? Why not easier targets? Especially since these were to be in-flight kills, not commandeering them and using them as guided missiles.

Is it judged that the economic hit to the airline and aero industry is more significant than walking into a bunch of malls and schools and shooting up the landscape?

-dale

astralis
10 Aug 06,, 18:53
dreadnought,



To clarify Blues we should show them that we value their lives as little as they do themselves and their efforts shall result in their deaths irregardless of what "martyr" status they see themselves as.

a culture that values death as much as it values life is, no pun intended, a dead one. thanks to a combination of this type of thinking and socialist economics, the entire friggin' middle east, minus israel, doesn't have the economic power of spain.

the terrorists are a failed model. those morons can't even overthrow one of their OWN governments, weak as THOSE are, and whenever they stand up to even a tiny fraction of the strength of western armies- whether conventionally or in guerilla warfare- they lose big time.

so given that both their state-sponsors or even countries of origin, as well as themselves, have proven themselves to be incompetent on just about every single level in modernity, you want to follow them and become as radical as they are? :confused:

we did not give the nazis, the soviets, nor the japanese this "honor". and they were a hell of a lot bigger threat than these extremist islamic terrorists and their ilk will ever be.

smilingassassin
10 Aug 06,, 19:06
Won't help. These guys do not fear their own deaths...they welcome it.

They fear one thing, and one thing only: the failure of their cause. They look at our fleets and airpower and armies and are not much impressed. We're going to have to get as radical as they are before this is all over, and there is simply no will to do that...yet. By the time there is, we may be in an unrecoverable position.

We COULD lose this war.

F#$% it, we do what Dreadnaught preposed and I'll feel much better. Lets post it on a million and one different websites with crappy music playing in the back ground....wait thats been done already.....


Question:

Why airliners again? Why not easier targets? Especially since these were to be in-flight kills, not commandeering them and using them as guided missiles.

Is it judged that the economic hit to the airline and aero industry is more significant than walking into a bunch of malls and schools and shooting up the landscape?

-dale

Because airline crashes/explosions are spectacular. Remember these guys are movie star wanna-be's.

gunnut
10 Aug 06,, 19:16
the terrorists are a failed model. those morons can't even overthrow one of their OWN governments, weak as THOSE are, and whenever they stand up to even a tiny fraction of the strength of western armies- whether conventionally or in guerilla warfare- they lose big time.

Those governments aren't weak. They are weak militarily compared with western army. They are incredibly strong in the way they control their population.

The west is weak in that regard. We give rights to people. We give lawyers to terrorists. We have the ACLU that rots us from the inside. Can't profile people, because it violates their civil rights. Can't execute criminals because it's cruel and unusual.

That's why the terrorists are here. They can't do their thing in their own countries because they would be horribly mutilated by their justice system, if they are lucky. We provide the perfect environment for terrorists to thrive.

Terrorists must be dealt with in the only language they understand. Terror. Unfortunately for us, we can't return the love and affection they show us because we are better than them.

astralis
10 Aug 06,, 19:28
gunnut,


Those governments aren't weak. They are weak militarily compared with western army. They are incredibly strong in the way they control their population.

hardly "incredibly strong". egypt has been cracking down on the muslim brotherhood for years, and look where it is now. iran's SAVAK in the time of the shah was reputed to be the most bloody-minded internal intelligence service. look where that got them. you want incredibly strong population control, try nazi germany or militarist japan circa WWII. now that was somethin'.

so despite these "strong governments", we see terrorists operating with near impunity on their soil. pakistan can't really control waziristan. half of saudi arabia's princes are probably complicit in funding terrorists. iraq, despite US military presence, iraqi military presence, and a harsh iraqi law, seeths with terrorists. egypt is shot through with the muslim brotherhood.

and interesting enough, despite having loads of terrorists, those countries still haven't fallen yet. they are certainly incompetent, but the terrorists are more incompetent still.

Bill
10 Aug 06,, 19:56
Question:

Why airliners again? Why not easier targets? Especially since these were to be in-flight kills, not commandeering them and using them as guided missiles.

Is it judged that the economic hit to the airline and aero industry is more significant than walking into a bunch of malls and schools and shooting up the landscape?

-dale

There is an attraction to attacking successfully into an enemies percieved strength. It genders a deep sense of futility in the minds of the attacked.

The only thing we've paid any real attention to is airline security, so if they can STILL breach that on a scale several times greater than 9-11........Yeouch.

There will be a panic the likes of which we've not seen since the dark days of early 1942.

Bill
10 Aug 06,, 19:58
we did not give the nazis, the soviets, nor the japanese this "honor". and they were a hell of a lot bigger threat than these extremist islamic terrorists and their ilk will ever be.

There was no 24 hour news-cycle back then, and no flood of blown up little German babies in Berlin on the nightly news.

If there was, we would have NEVER won WWII unconditionally as was the case historically.

I also believe that as a populace America/the west was more resulute back then, and we trusted our gov'ts a hell of a lot more than we do now.

gunnut
10 Aug 06,, 20:05
gunnut,



hardly "incredibly strong". egypt has been cracking down on the muslim brotherhood for years, and look where it is now. iran's SAVAK in the time of the shah was reputed to be the most bloody-minded internal intelligence service. look where that got them. you want incredibly strong population control, try nazi germany or militarist japan circa WWII. now that was somethin'.

so despite these "strong governments", we see terrorists operating with near impunity on their soil. pakistan can't really control waziristan. half of saudi arabia's princes are probably complicit in funding terrorists. iraq, despite US military presence, iraqi military presence, and a harsh iraqi law, seeths with terrorists. egypt is shot through with the muslim brotherhood.

and interesting enough, despite having loads of terrorists, those countries still haven't fallen yet. they are certainly incompetent, but the terrorists are more incompetent still.

Incredibly strong by our standards.

They don't give terrorists lawyers, ACLU, humane treatment, and all that bull crap.

They really go after them. A good torture session can deter quite a few nutjobs. And the torture session I'm refering to isn't "naked pyramids" or some college pranks. I mean real torture.

SnowLeopard
10 Aug 06,, 20:14
Question:

Why airliners again? Why not easier targets? Especially since these were to be in-flight kills, not commandeering them and using them as guided missiles.

Is it judged that the economic hit to the airline and aero industry is more significant than walking into a bunch of malls and schools and shooting up the landscape?

-dale

You brought up the point that I'm afraid a lot of people here are missing. Ie, the seeing of terrorism as the killing of people. It is that, yes, but it is more. Another goal is to make "you" afraid to use your assets, ie perhaps airlines.

But here, we don't only have the fear but we have the resultant security tactics. Ie, you can't take hardly anything into the cabin. Now, here it is for safety and hopefully it won't last too long.

But what if it does? What if we are saying to the business world that they can't work on their laptops while in flight? How long has the world been use to being able to do such? How long can the airlines last if people get so fed up about being treated as nothing better than prisoners that they go elsewhere? Businessmen to air taxis, perhaps?

The terrorist has accomplished a mission. He didn't get to kill people but we must realize that the killing of people is only the means to the goal and not really the goal.

The real goal is to make one afraid to use whatever the assets on the table are.
---------------------------------------
("Colonel, I'm signed for those ambulances. If anything happens to them, I'm toast."--Peachfuzz Lt.
"You idiot! The Army expects things to happen to those ambulances. The signing is just a formality!" We need those ambulances up here!"--Col. Potter, (wtte), "MASH")

Dreadnought
10 Aug 06,, 20:53
dreadnought,



a culture that values death as much as it values life is, no pun intended, a dead one. thanks to a combination of this type of thinking and socialist economics, the entire friggin' middle east, minus israel, doesn't have the economic power of spain.

the terrorists are a failed model. those morons can't even overthrow one of their OWN governments, weak as THOSE are, and whenever they stand up to even a tiny fraction of the strength of western armies- whether conventionally or in guerilla warfare- they lose big time.

so given that both their state-sponsors or even countries of origin, as well as themselves, have proven themselves to be incompetent on just about every single level in modernity, you want to follow them and become as radical as they are? :confused:

we did not give the nazis, the soviets, nor the japanese this "honor". and they were a hell of a lot bigger threat than these extremist islamic terrorists and their ilk will ever be.

I just think that if caught they should recieve no rights, no appeals, no time for prayer and certainly no jury let them appeal to god immediatly after they are executed and out of humanity. Thats not radical thats just affording them absolutely zero as far as the rights of all human beings and certainly they dont fit that catagory.

This is true but I have to give the above mention (WWII) that they atleast fought somewhat like men in days where men fought honorbly not hide in corners awaiting the next 30 innocents so they can detonate a bomb or a car bomb or train laiden with innocents.

Dreadnought
10 Aug 06,, 20:57
Incredibly strong by our standards.

They don't give terrorists lawyers, ACLU, humane treatment, and all that bull crap.

They really go after them. A good torture session can deter quite a few nutjobs. And the torture session I'm refering to isn't "naked pyramids" or some college pranks. I mean real torture.

For terrorists im all for torture. Live by the sword then die by it as well. If thats what it takes.

Heres a question what will happen when we get to the root funders of these terrorists the nations that is? Will we be passive and sanction this or that or will we just invade destroy them instead? Your thoughts?

HistoricalDavid
10 Aug 06,, 21:22
I just think that if caught they should recieve no rights, no appeals, no time for prayer and certainly no jury let them appeal to god immediatly after they are executed and out of humanity. Thats not radical thats just affording them absolutely zero as far as the rights of all human beings and certainly they dont fit that catagory.

a) Suspending an 800-year-old tradition of habaeus corpus. That is radical.

b) They are human beings. The sooner you realise this, the sooner you realise that it can happen again.

Bill
10 Aug 06,, 23:26
Well, the truth of this incident is that all the Islamists have handed us was a sorely needed reminder of the threat and a nice recruiting tool.

Thanx dumbasses.

leib10
10 Aug 06,, 23:33
Won't help. These guys do not fear their own deaths...they welcome it.

They fear one thing, and one thing only: the failure of their cause. They look at our fleets and airpower and armies and are not much impressed. We're going to have to get as radical as they are before this is all over, and there is simply no will to do that...yet. By the time there is, we may be in an unrecoverable position.

We COULD lose this war.

Yes, we most certainly can. A lot of people don't realize it or refuse to realize it.

Tronic
10 Aug 06,, 23:41
I just hope your next government is as stern as this one... "You" may loose this war if the government after Bush turns out to be a wussy one... I'd hate to see America leave the war on terror so soon...

Hari_Om
11 Aug 06,, 04:42
And inevitably if it is a terrorist incident a Pakistani connection will usually emege:

French minister says plotters likely Pakistani (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-08-10T164431Z_01_L10257672_RTRUKOC_0_US-SECURITY-FRANCE.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsHome-C3-worldNews-2)

As Dr. Ajai Sahni of the Institute of Conflict Management says ;) :

"the footprint of almost every act of international terrorism since 9/11 [and before] passes inexorably through Pakistan."

Let us be very clear, this is more of a case of "Pakistani origin Islamicists" running amok and less of a case of "Islamicists" running amok.

lemontree
11 Aug 06,, 04:56
I don't think you guys are grasping the enormity of this incident.

The terror plot was not to down one aircraft in flight....but to down TWENTY FOUR aircraft in flight at once!

And 29 of the 50 conspiritors are still on the loose.


The only thing we've paid any real attention to is airline security, so if they can STILL breach that on a scale SIX TIMES greater than 9-11........Yeouch.

The problem is that we,i.e the good guys have to be lucky every time, while they - the bad guys have lucky just once.

Lets hope a tragedy like this does not happen, but if it did, then the US will have to re-think a very crucial political policy it is currently following w.r.t to a particular nation (no names, the bunch of the chaps currently arrested hail from there ).

I predict we WILL lose this war, and just like Vietnam, we'll lose it from the INSIDE OUT.

We're already well on the way to doing just that...
No my good man, this is different. To use Vietnam as an example, the Vietcong did not make US civilians their targets, while the islamists are attacking our very homes.

lemontree
11 Aug 06,, 05:30
Hats off to scotland yard.They've proved again why they're the best security agency in the world. :)

MI5 you mean.
None of the above, actually it was the FBI's investigations that led to US pressure on Pakistan to make arrests on key leads provided by them.
US tightlipped on role in busting UK terror plot (http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/aug/11terror1.htm)

Bill
11 Aug 06,, 05:48
No my good man, this is different. To use Vietnam as an example, the Vietcong did not make US civilians their targets, while the islamists are attacking our very homes.

Hopefully you are right. I see a real lack of commitment from our side to fight the fight that is upon us.

dalem
11 Aug 06,, 06:16
Hopefully you are right. I see a real lack of commitment from our side to fight the fight that is upon us.

I think there is a tremendous tide of Death that is being held back by a hundred years of liberal Western civilization in this country. There is a point that we have not yet reached that will see many of us scrambling to be first in line to eliminate entire swaths of people and cultures.

I often point to Europe's dark history as evidence for my dire predictions of their coming bloodletting - I would be remiss if I did not remind people of our own darker side.

Where is Imperial Japan? Where is Nazi Germany? Where is the Confederacy?

Note that when we really get our dander up, we don't leave many survivors behind, and we don't really feel all that bad about it either. Do our latest enemies really, truly understand this?

Somehow I don't think so.

-dale

gunnut
11 Aug 06,, 06:32
I think there is a tremendous tide of Death that is being held back by a hundred years of liberal Western civilization in this country. There is a point that we have not yet reached that will see many of us scrambling to be first in line to eliminate entire swaths of people and cultures.

I often point to Europe's dark history as evidence for my dire predictions of their coming bloodletting - I would be remiss if I did not remind people of our own darker side.

Where is Imperial Japan? Where is Nazi Germany? Where is the Confederacy?

Note that when we really get our dander up, we don't leave many survivors behind, and we don't really feel all that bad about it either. Do our latest enemies really, truly understand this?

Somehow I don't think so.

-dale

I completely agree. I've said in a previous post that these people (islamists) don't quite understand the people they're dealing with. The west has been playing the world domination game for over 5 centuries now. When push comes to shove and we feel threatened, I mean really threatened, not the current level of annoyance, there'll be hell to pay.

The good muslim people need to do some house cleaning before too late. Otherwise someone else will. And it won't be pretty.

leib10
11 Aug 06,, 07:26
Hopefully you are right. I see a real lack of commitment from our side to fight the fight that is upon us.

I'm afraid that I agree. This war cannot be fought half-heartedly. I pray that the next administration will continue the fight against terrorism, or it will surely destroy all that we have sacrificed so far.

And sad to say, I have a feeling that the war-weary American citizens in their naivety will vote in an administration calling for a cessation of hostilities with those who mean to destroy our country and everything it stands for. Then we shall surely be lost.

All that aside, my hats off to the men and women who foiled what could've been a horrific disaster on a scale never seen before. It's people like them that give me hope.

dalem
11 Aug 06,, 08:55
I completely agree. I've said in a previous post that these people (islamists) don't quite understand the people they're dealing with. The west has been playing the world domination game for over 5 centuries now. When push comes to shove and we feel threatened, I mean really threatened, not the current level of annoyance, there'll be hell to pay.

The good muslim people need to do some house cleaning before too late. Otherwise someone else will. And it won't be pretty.

I can think of two quotes from movies, non-ironically enough, both of them Wyatt Earp movies from the 90s, that apply:

From the cartoon-like but very watchable Tombstone, when Kurt Russell's excellently dashing Wyatt Earp warns Ike Clanton "You tell 'em I'm comin'! And Hell's comin' with me!"

And from the plodding and slightly unwatchable Wyatt Earp, when Kevin Costner's realistically stoic Wyatt responds to Doc Holliday's question about what he's going to do after the Clantons have murdered his brother Morgan: a simple and direct "Kill 'em all."

When the time comes, folks had better pick a side, because we'll aim to clean house.

-dale

smilingassassin
11 Aug 06,, 10:07
I just think that if caught they should recieve no rights, no appeals, no time for prayer and certainly no jury let them appeal to god immediatly after they are executed and out of humanity. Thats not radical thats just affording them absolutely zero as far as the rights of all human beings and certainly they dont fit that catagory.

This is true but I have to give the above mention (WWII) that they atleast fought somewhat like men in days where men fought honorbly not hide in corners awaiting the next 30 innocents so they can detonate a bomb or a car bomb or train laiden with innocents.

I agree, take their head gear away, shave em bald, take away the carpet and Quran, stick em in a dark stinky damn hole and let them REALLY think about the misery they have caused others. then after the perscibed length of time put them out of their misery.

Its time we started treating killers like killers. Frankly I could care less if they think they are martyrs.

SnowLeopard
11 Aug 06,, 10:26
Never mind the matryism for a moment. Remember, you are fighting an idealism war as much as you are fighting one to save lives. Remember who and what the US is.

Now, there are those out there that hate us. That's obvious. But the US is the pillar of freedom to the world, a place that is just, fair.

Do you really want to verify his arguements that we are the Great Satan, generate many more members for him when it can be shown that what he speaks is the truth, just so you can have the pleasure of torturing people to death?

Or do you want to make it hard for him to get members by continuing to be the good, not innocent mind you, force in the world?
-------------------------------------------------------
("Today, he is one man. Tomarrow, he may have convinced another. By next month, there may be an army of dissedents."--Benedict, an internal security agent in a police state talking about the free mind of Astronaut Neil Stryker, (w,stte), "The Stranger")

Bill
11 Aug 06,, 11:23
Never mind the matryism for a moment. Remember, you are fighting an idealism war as much as you are fighting one to save lives. Remember who and what the US is.

Now, there are those out there that hate us. That's obvious. But the US is the pillar of freedom to the world, a place that is just, fair.

Do you really want to verify his arguements that we are the Great Satan, generate many more members for him when it can be shown that what he speaks is the truth, just so you can have the pleasure of torturing people to death?

Or do you want to make it hard for him to get members by continuing to be the good, not innocent mind you, force in the world?


You are operating under the premise that it is hard for them to get new recruits if we behave as gentlemen, which is of course, totally false....and not just a little naive.

Stan
11 Aug 06,, 11:37
what annoys the hell out of me is that right now on the radio muslim community leaders are claiming they are being persecuted by the police again.

im sorry but if the people who kept trying to cause destruction and such to our countries where white and middle class and balding i would fully expect to be arrested if i was close to or confused with some one else of the same description.

if the muslim community in the uk wants to stop being the targets of anti terror police action then they need to start sorting their own community out now. throw out the radical clerics / alert the police themselves to strange behaviour. not just sit back and let these things happen.

SnowLeopard
11 Aug 06,, 11:50
You are operating under the premise that it is hard for them to get new recruits if we behave as gentlemen, which is of course, totally false....and not just a little naive.

No, that is not what I said. What I said was don't make it easier for them to get lots more recruits. They will always get some, maybe a lot; that is being proved now.

Those they have now, I don't think we can sway them with a threat of torture. They are quite convinced, ready to die, and they know that whatever perils they face here on Earth will be rewarded by bliss in whatever Valhalla they end up in. That's been a common basis in a lot of religions for centuries.

Further, if a Buddhist monk can chant himself out of the pain of burning to death, I wouldn't be surprised if someone else can detach themselves from the pain of torture.

But if we become the devil they say we are, then I think we will find they will have a lot more soldiers than they do now.

There have been other societies that thought they could use the heavy hand, do whatever they wanted for their survival, such as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan .......... and look how many people signed up to fight them when the oppurtunity came.

If someone is just, if a country is just, then just as there are people who will speak against it, so there are people who will speak for it, "Say, now wait a minute." ............ But if the country is not just, is two faced and doesn't hold up to its Constitution, then who is going to counter any talk when another says they are bad and it is time to get rid of them?
-------------------------------------------------------------
("What have the Romans ever done for us?"--revolutionary trying to stir up support
"Gave us a language and an alphabet."--1st person
"Invented the aquaduct."--2nd person, (wtte), "Life of Brian")

lemontree
11 Aug 06,, 11:59
Its time we started treating killers like killers. Frankly I could care less if they think they are martyrs.
What about the bleeding hearts brigade? like the ones who oppose Gitmo Bay.

Bluesman
11 Aug 06,, 12:19
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: treat those that say they're our enemies as if they meant it, and act accordingly.

Begin to KILL the radicals, wherever they happen to be.

If he preaches hate toward us from London or Lahore...zap him.

If he joins aQ in Brisbane or Bangalore...zap him.

If she is captured smuggling Islamist thumb drives and CDs through Dallas or Daar-es-Salaam...zap her.

I think those of you that believe we'll never go so far down the path to defeat, that we'll shake ourselves awake before we reach the point of no return, are kidding yourselves. We're embracing the road to defeat more and more every single day, instead of getting more resolved to win.

I don't know which way all of this will break before it's over (or if it will ever end), but I see the tide as being decidedly against us as things stand right now. Radical Islam is waxing; Western Civilization is playing defense, and what little we ARE doing, we're doing badly.

I believe we MAY get radical, when it appears that we're about to lose, and lose permanently. Then we'll do something so reactionary and illogical that we'll go down with a rush, like a collapsing skyscraper. We on this board used to talk about nuking Mecca, or one of our other putative 'allies', and I said then that it was the surest way to defeat that we could have devised. I still think that, but we're getting so desperate for a 'fix' to our Islam problem, that it may well come to that: rational people will begin to grab at the last reeds available and do something that freakin' stupid...and then we are absolutely screwed.

I believe dalem sees a dark future for a desperate Europe, and their domestic Islam problem is probably so advanced at this point that they may very well NOT survive this existential struggle in any recognizable form. Well, remember: nothing succeeds like success, and if Eurabia becomes more than just a cutesy phrase that describes a problem, and becomes the reality, will we be far behind? Because note this: Europe is not becoming more Muslim and more radical by immigration and birthrates alone: it is becoming so by conversion. It is the only active faith on the continent (to include the UK).

With the tide running so high for Muslims the world over, with all those young men attracted to a strong, fighting faith with a clear message, and with their elan and esprit-de-corps and sense of belonging to the winning side...are our dying churches and outlets of faith going to be the bulwark that holds this tide back?

Remember the American Taliban? Have you seen the Palestinian keffiyahs and Hezbollah flags all across American campuses? Have you witnessed the descration of Jewish synagogues and tombs? How much worse will it get?

I argue that we CAN lose this war. I believe there is only a few ways to win it, and NONE of the necessary steps are being taken, except one: taking it to the heartland of the enemy. And look how popular THAT has been. Ask Joe Lieberman.

Ray
11 Aug 06,, 13:30
There has been no terrorist attack on the US.

Because Bush is clear about terrorists and sympathisers. He will impale the dogs.

Blair is a sissy and the British have nurtured these dogs as if they were their pet poodle.

Now, because of this stupid British "liberalism", not only the US, but the world suffers.
India is on high alert because of this and there is a intel report that something can happen since our Independence Day is due on 15 Aug.

It is time to just string them up and ask questions later.

Serial blast on Mumbai commuter trains and now they wanted to serial bomb airplanes!

Stan
11 Aug 06,, 13:38
watch your tongue when you say things about the british like that.
the british have been victims of terrorism for a long long time and we know what we are doing.
The difference between us and alot of others is we do our best to do the job properly and maintain integrity.

GOD save Queen Elizabeth Empress of India :)

bandwagon
11 Aug 06,, 13:44
"War on terror" has no useful meaning, it maybe a statement of general intent, but presenting it as specific plan is like saying "treat disease" or "we're going to do discovery". It's a political platitude. Terrorist groups are disperate, with different charters and MOs. A plan against one would be inappropriate for another.

The biggest threat to the West is from Al Qaeda, a rather intangible entity, nothing to grab by the throat; their anti-West philosophy is more definable than its structure. What are we going to attack.

We can find and bomb out training camps, many of which are in Pakistan. But is that effective. Invading Afghanistan hasn't at all reduced the threat from Jihadists. Camps can be set up anywhere. There are some in the US.

We can attack nations that are willing or unwilling hosts, or clearly support terrorist groups. Is that effective? It seems to me that, rather than decreasing the threat it would increase it, especially the home-grown threat that is clearly generated by this. We've got the Pakistan connection to thank for the aversion of the recent threat. My guess is that the would-be terrorist will cotton onto this one. It is frightening to see how little material it takes to bring down a number of planes. Training for that can be done over the internet. Planning can be done anywhere. They don't need to be seen to connect with anything in Pakistan.

I can't see a military solution to it. It will only make it worse.

SnowLeopard
11 Aug 06,, 13:48
......Serial blast on Mumbai commuter trains and now they wanted to serial bomb airplanes!

Let us not lose track of history here. It is not now, it is this time.

Or has everyone forgotten about three airliners in the Jordian desert? Granted, that wasn't mass murder but that was planning and organization. And they did bomb them in the end.

Let us not forget lessons we have learned before. Certainly it appears that enemy has learned from some of them.
---------------------------------------------------
(After finding their target cloaked from sensors by hiding at one special spot in the magnetic fields. "This guy knows all the tricks."--Riker, (w,stte), ST:TNG "The Hunted")

Bill
11 Aug 06,, 17:35
No, that is not what I said. What I said was don't make it easier for them to get lots more recruits. They will always get some, maybe a lot; that is being proved now.

Those they have now, I don't think we can sway them with a threat of torture. They are quite convinced, ready to die, and they know that whatever perils they face here on Earth will be rewarded by bliss in whatever Valhalla they end up in. That's been a common basis in a lot of religions for centuries.

Further, if a Buddhist monk can chant himself out of the pain of burning to death, I wouldn't be surprised if someone else can detach themselves from the pain of torture.

But if we become the devil they say we are, then I think we will find they will have a lot more soldiers than they do now.

There have been other societies that thought they could use the heavy hand, do whatever they wanted for their survival, such as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan .......... and look how many people signed up to fight them when the oppurtunity came.

If someone is just, if a country is just, then just as there are people who will speak against it, so there are people who will speak for it, "Say, now wait a minute." ............ But if the country is not just, is two faced and doesn't hold up to its Constitution, then who is going to counter any talk when another says they are bad and it is time to get rid of them?


Perhaps you could direct me to a Native American...?

Military induced extinction is a highly effective strategy, though it does take a lot of effort, and yeah, it's damned distasteful business.

Extinction is what radical islam seeks to bring to us. There is utterly no denying it, they'll tell anyone that will listen they're fighting for a global Sharia based Islamic hegemony.

To win this fight, we had better be prepared to get old testament biblical on their unholy caliphate.

Because friends, this is a fight to the death....and there are no sidelines.

"Give me liberty, or give me death"
~Patrick Henry

“To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell's heart, I stab at thee; For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee”
~Melville

"We have always said that in our war with the Arabs we had a secret weapon- no alternative."
~Golda Meir

PS: I've been saying this will ultimately end in a global war with islam since 9-11 on this and other boards. NOTHING that has happened since has done anything but to further convince me that i'm right. All that it will take to push this fight over the edge is an islamic WMD event.

Bill
11 Aug 06,, 17:40
The biggest threat to the West is from Al Qaeda, a rather intangible entity, nothing to grab by the throat; their anti-West philosophy is more definable than its structure. What are we going to attack.

There are definitely things one could grab by the throat to quell Al Qaeda. About a billion of them in fact.


I can't see a military solution to it.

I can. ALL i can see is a military solution.

Dreadnought
11 Aug 06,, 17:51
What about the bleeding hearts brigade? like the ones who oppose Gitmo Bay.

My reply Capt.
Screw em tell them to find a better solution now here and present day or STFU and let them do thier jobs that protect their dumb ass bleeding hearts while they sleep.

Bill
11 Aug 06,, 17:58
My reply Capt.
Screw em tell them to find a better solution now here and present day or STFU and let them do thier jobs that protect their dumb ass bleeding hearts while they sleep.

Eventually the Islamists will take care of the leftists for us....one way or another.(and you can bet your sweet assses on that prediction).

Either they'll marginalize them into oblivion due to the savagery of a future attack, or they'll KILL THEM when they stand over the smoldering remains of the last American that was left who had the guts to fight.

Either way, the left will get what it's got coming...

gunnut
11 Aug 06,, 19:15
From the cartoon-like but very watchable Tombstone, when Kurt Russell's excellently dashing Wyatt Earp warns Ike Clanton "You tell 'em I'm comin'! And Hell's comin' with me!"

When the time comes, folks had better pick a side, because we'll aim to clean house.

-dale

One of my favorite westerns of all time. It's very simplistic and cartoon like, but damn it's a feel good movie. I like simple, feel good, good vs. evil, cut and dry, guy walks off with the girl into sunset after vanquishing evil movies.

gunnut
11 Aug 06,, 19:16
There has been no terrorist attack on the US.

Because Bush is clear about terrorists and sympathisers. He will impale the dogs.

Blair is a sissy and the British have nurtured these dogs as if they were their pet poodle.

Yeah, you tell 'em sir. :biggrin:

Lunatock
11 Aug 06,, 19:34
I just hope your next government is as stern as this one... "You" may loose this war if the government after Bush turns out to be a wussy one... I'd hate to see America leave the war on terror so soon...

Wouldn't be that cut & dry. It'd be likely to just go from the USMC fighting Islamists in Anbar Providence with their standard issue weapons to American civies fighting them in guerrilla warfare with whatever weapons are cached in the States.

Not a good trade off despite the fact it'd be their Chechnya.

Lunatock
11 Aug 06,, 19:51
Perhaps you could direct me to a Native American...?

Military induced extinction is a highly effective strategy, though it does take a lot of effort, and yeah, it's damned distasteful business.

Extinction is what radical islam seeks to bring to us. There is utterly no denying it, they'll tell anyone that will listen they're fighting for a global Sharia based Islamic hegemony.

To win this fight, we had better be prepared to get old testament biblical on their unholy caliphate.

Because friends, this is a fight to the death....and there are no sidelines.

"Give me liberty, or give me death"
~Patrick Henry

“To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell's heart, I stab at thee; For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee”
~Melville

"We have always said that in our war with the Arabs we had a secret weapon- no alternative."
~Golda Meir

PS: I've been saying this will ultimately end in a global war with islam since 9-11 on this and other boards. NOTHING that has happened since has done anything but to further convince me that i'm right. All that it will take to push this fight over the edge is an islamic WMD event.

Or perhaps you'd like all the info I was ever able to wring out of a few Shia about Al-Kharajite, or "The Outsiders"? That consists of this group the Shiite's like to compare to Al-Qaeda martyring Imam Ali in the city of Karbala.

...but that's about it. That radical group that draws comparisons to A/Q was driven to extinction somewhere, somehow...and it doesn't seem like anyone cared to remember much about A/K.

Dreadnought
11 Aug 06,, 21:00
Yeah, you tell 'em sir. :biggrin:

You know hes one of our most disliked presidents. However some say he overstepped his boundries with some of his actions and possibly he did. I think now people will understand that what he does in the WOT wont be realized for some time to come when they reap the benefits of his unpopularity. IMO hes still our president and that alone warrants respect from me. :redface: And facing what we are these days IM DAM GLAD HES OURS! :cool:

Tronic
11 Aug 06,, 21:35
Wouldn't be that cut & dry. It'd be likely to just go from the USMC fighting Islamists in Anbar Providence with their standard issue weapons to American civies fighting them in guerrilla warfare with whatever weapons are cached in the States.
Bush's opponents have to realize that...

troung
11 Aug 06,, 23:43
Bluesman;

So in your opinion, since 9-11 have radical Islamist groups gotten stronger or weaker?

Bill
12 Aug 06,, 04:15
Bluesman;

So in your opinion, since 9-11 have radical Islamist groups gotten stronger or weaker?

In your opinion since 9-11 has the US and it's allies gotten stronger militarily, economically, and technologically?

The power of Jihad is insignificant compared to the power of the United States of America.

lemontree
12 Aug 06,, 05:33
GOD save Queen Elizabeth Empress of India :)
Queen Elizabeth was never the empress of India, since she got coronated in 1953.
As for the integrity part, you must be bloody joking.

bull
12 Aug 06,, 06:49
British has been nururing all these pigs under the pre texy of -they mean no hram to us...the khalistanis,the kashmiri rebels,the LTTE and what not.

Now let them reap what they sowed.bloody britishs.

Archer
12 Aug 06,, 12:18
watch your tongue when you say things about the british like that.

Oo, that was scary... :tongue:



the british have been victims of terrorism for a long long time and we know what we are doing.
The difference between us and alot of others is we do our best to do the job properly and maintain integrity.

Right. Thats why the term Londonistan came about, all them Khalistanis and jihadis setting up camp in UK...please...! :tongue:


GOD save Queen Elizabeth Empress of India :)

It'll take more than God to save that bunch of parasites, errmmm royals mate! :biggrin:

kams
12 Aug 06,, 13:40
Even Holland has a large Pakistani population. They have been keeping low profile unlike British Pakistanis..

Stan
12 Aug 06,, 14:42
Queen Elizabeth was never the empress of India, since she got coronated in 1953.
As for the integrity part, you must be bloody joking.

the empress of india was a joke you muppet :biggrin:

and the integrity part im not joking about

Hari_Om
12 Aug 06,, 19:34
Why are we, including myself, wasting our time discussing this non event ;) .

The event is all a hoax :biggrin: .

So says Pakistani Parlimentarian and equivalent for you Americans out there, of House Minority Leader, Qazi Hussain Ahmad :rolleyes:.

The "serious business ;) "of Pakistan being the preferred providers of footsoldiers for global Jihad apparently does not preclude its worthies having a sense of amusing the rest of the world :tongue: :


Saturday, August 12, 2006

Qazi terms bombing hoax ‘US media ploy’ (http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\08\12\story_12-8-2006_pg7_32)

* Condemns OIC and Arab League for ineptness

Staff Report

LAHORE: Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) President and Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan Ameer, Qazi Hussain Ahmad, said that “the hoax of the bombing plan in passenger planes is a well-orchestrated US and UK ploy to divert the attention of world media from the humiliation meted out to Zionist forces at the hands of Hezbollah in Lebanon.” He added that “it is shameful that Islamabad is unilaterally taking credit for extending a helping hand in arresting or unveiling the so called terror plan in American and British planes for which no independent confirmation has yet been made.” ...................

Archer
13 Aug 06,, 01:38
the empress of india was a joke you muppet :biggrin:

and the integrity part im not joking about

Dang we thought you were joking about both. :eek: :tongue: :biggrin:

smilingassassin
13 Aug 06,, 02:09
What about the bleeding hearts brigade? like the ones who oppose Gitmo Bay.

Pawns for terrorists, what Uncle joe termed as "usefull idiots"and Cindy Sheehan is their prophet....

Let any one of those nutjobs out of Gitmo an stick him in a room full of infedels and see how much simpathy he repay's in kind....they are there for a reason and Osama would be there too if caught alive.

dalem
13 Aug 06,, 02:18
wrong thread.
-dale

Bill
13 Aug 06,, 20:19
wrong thread.
-dale

Heh, the TOE/evolution stuff gotcha so frazzled that yer posting in wrong threads...? ;)

Ray
13 Aug 06,, 20:31
Blair is a WIMP.

He is running with the hares and hunting with the hounds.

If he and UK was serious, then after 7/7, this humbug would not have been there.

Has the US had another threat? No!

Why?

Because the terrorists and the govts spawning them in their womb, know that Bush will squeeze their gonads and make them hermaphrodites for life.

Blair should stop being a hermaphrodite and become a Man or a Bush!

Ray
13 Aug 06,, 20:34
Stan

You are a great joker!

I believe "assclown" is the Americanism!

lemontree
14 Aug 06,, 05:02
the empress of india was a joke you muppet :biggrin:
I was'nt. Ironically for the empire, India made the empire, and as for Elizabeth, she has for the better part pf her time presided of a crumbling legacy.

and the integrity part im not joking about
Do not confuse "integrety" of the British govt with that of the common Englishman. Most ordinary British govts have been lacking integrity, while dealing with other peoples. But this is subject for another thread.

Officer of Engineers
14 Aug 06,, 05:36
Most ordinary British govts have been lacking integrity, while dealing with other peoples. But this is subject for another thread.

Despite our shared battle honours, Captain, I loathe the fact that the Brits have brainwashed us into accepting the bagpipe as a source of pride in our regiments.

lemontree
14 Aug 06,, 06:32
Despite our shared battle honours, Captain, I loathe the fact that the Brits have brainwashed us into accepting the bagpipe as a source of pride in our regiments.
Sir,
We have been so badly brainwashed that our regiments can't seem to do without them. We even have a malt whisky called "Bagpiper" and scotch called "100 Pipers" (the later is good scotch though). :biggrin:

Ray
14 Aug 06,, 07:53
Colonel and LT,

Bagpipes make an obscene noise.

However, I love the tune "Marching through Georgia" when added with the Strathspey.

I liked it so much that the bands would strike that up whenever I visited official functions of my unit (located in the neighbouring brigade) or other units when I was commanding my Brigade,

Simullacrum
14 Aug 06,, 10:40
watch your tongue when you say things about the british like that.
the british have been victims of terrorism for a long long time and we know what we are doing.
The difference between us and alot of others is we do our best to do the job properly and maintain integrity.

GOD save Queen Elizabeth Empress of India :)

I WOULD SUGGEST YOU SHOW SOMMORE RESPECT TO MEMBERS VIEWS AND OPINIONS ON THESE BOARDS.
Ray is a seasoned and value member on thse forums.

There is no need to get arsey about others opinions.

I am British, proud of being one and proud of my country, but definetley can also see what is wrong with it as well....and to a certain level agree to Ray's statement....this country has become a soft touch in the past 20 years.

And if hasent been for blair's human rights implementation, lax imigration rules with no cap, feeding and clothing these dipstick, and then when they preech there hatred crap, do nothing about it, pat them on there back... say 'aghhh your poor thing, you have you freedom here and the right to do what you want, and then give them a house and benefits.
We wouldnt be such a soft touch, and an attraction for these inbreds..!!

Then Im called in to go fight for my country, and see my comrades and country men die on the battlefield..!
You have no concpet on what it is to see you fellow friends be shot or blown up in front of your eyes.

Let me guess you probaly the type...that shouts about the Bitish army being the best, best trained, and can do this and that, and so forth, yet have no contribution to it what so ever, its people like me that make it as such, so you can shoot your mouth off, sitting on a chair, behind a TV screen, fondaling yourslef.!
Yet still have an opinion on matters which you havent a clue on..!

I dont usually speak about oprations...but im somewhat more better palced then most on these forums, with what is currentley happening. And will say that it is not that good..... The war was not thought out properly by the yanks...this is the hard part the stabilisation....not spear heading into iraq or afgahnistan, fighting against a third world rate army.!
And boasting about it..!!
It is becoming a failure in the making... If we dont get a grip in afgahnistan or iraq, it would have been all for nothing, and the situation will just get worse.
This is no normal war....it aint near victory, and wont be for a long time.... unless 'civies and politicions' wake the feck up...!!!

Stan
14 Aug 06,, 11:54
as a person about to head of to sandhurst i would say im about to make my contribution. just finnished university and have been accepted to be an officer in the army.

the reason i posted is i dont agree with people making out that britain some how lacks the courage to confront terrorists in our own midst. we just dont do it in the gun ho attitude that alot of other countries do.
it may be a mistake in other peoples eyes but i believe we do what we do the right way.
as some one that studied what you will more than likely call a soft degree in criminology and sociology i see the problesm in our country in maybe others. we do not need to go into communities gun ho and break them apart looking for terrorists we need to engage those communities and work with them. we invited these groups to our country and we cant turn our backs on them.

to the enraged person above, your right i havent been into war yet but when i have finnished my training i will go where im sent and do what needs to be done. Coming from portsmouth i have alot of friends that lost relatives in iraq and falklands so i see the losses due to war.
I tell you what when i Pass out of Sandhurst ill send you a private message of where im serving.
:)

to think though at first i wanted to go in the navy.

Stan
14 Aug 06,, 11:56
and ill tell you another thing. i was messing about in those posts an attempt at humour wasted though. never mind. i did not intend to offend or disrespect Ray.

ill revise my statement

God Save the Queen

Archer
14 Aug 06,, 12:15
as a person about to head of to sandhurst i would say im about to make my contribution. just finnished university and have been accepted to be an officer in the army.

the reason i posted is i dont agree with people making out that britain some how lacks the courage to confront terrorists in our own midst. we just dont do it in the gun ho attitude that alot of other countries do.
it may be a mistake in other peoples eyes but i believe we do what we do the right way.
as some one that studied what you will more than likely call a soft degree in criminology and sociology i see the problesm in our country in maybe others. we do not need to go into communities gun ho and break them apart looking for terrorists we need to engage those communities and work with them. we invited these groups to our country and we cant turn our backs on them.

to the enraged person above, your right i havent been into war yet but when i have finnished my training i will go where im sent and do what needs to be done. Coming from portsmouth i have alot of friends that lost relatives in iraq and falklands so i see the losses due to war.
I tell you what when i Pass out of Sandhurst ill send you a private message of where im serving.
:)

to think though at first i wanted to go in the navy.


Best wishes for your service and may you do your country proud (and be safe as well).

But I just wanted to add two points:

1. For a lot of countries, the UK has become a beacon of lax implementation of laws, a mealy mouthed version of "one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist". For decades, India for eg, has watched assorted criminals and terrorists use the UK as a haven for fund raising and garnering support for their attacks back in India- Khalistanis, NE rebels, not to mention the widespread support for the Kashmiri terrorists. The UK in response played the Great Game. That has not gone down well. The other thing is of course, that given the number of Pakistani immigrants you have, your politicians have done what they asked, ie slag India & other countries for votebank concerns. Thats understandable- our politicians are no better. But to see Rifkind & others jaw about Human Rights & such, given British COIN in Malaya, Ireland and Britains own colonial history is ludicrous.

2. Nothing personal against the Queen, mate- but trying to sock one over viz Indias colonial history, even as a joke doesnt make us laugh. We retain the British influence in our services & with pride, but as for the rest of it, we dont give a damn. The empires dead mate, and dead it will be. Nor do we maintain any rancour over Brits today over what went past earlier. The pompous blatherings of some of your politicians apart & the tripe that the British media usually writes about us 24/7- one does wonder that they still havent got over the fact that the "jewel in the crown" aint in the crown anymore & doesnt need the crown to decide its life either.

No offence intended, but just so that you know where we stand.

And best of luck for your new life! :)

Stan
14 Aug 06,, 12:24
a nice reply mate. i understand your point and i conceed we should be acting quicker to stem the funds of these groups coming through the uk. you have to remember though as well that the uk and london has the biggest concentration of banks in the world. thats alot to track. but you are right

my comment about the empress of india was a cheap shot at a joke and i apologise for that.
for my part i will continue to hope that india
1. gets a permanent un seat
2. outstrips china's development
any how thanks for the best wishes, my mother doesnt think i will get on too well though im at home atm doing alot of gym work and such to prepare myself. but she says if i dont start tackling the ironing pile ill never make it at sandhurst. worst thing is i think she could be right,

so for a limited time only ill iron every ones shirts here.

Simullacrum
14 Aug 06,, 13:16
and ill tell you another thing. i was messing about in those posts an attempt at humour wasted though. never mind. i did not intend to offend or disrespect Ray.

ill revise my statement

God Save the Queen

see that is alot better responsce... I have thing about respecting others who are clued up in here, and get fustrated with those that dont and be sarci and put those that do, down. Its about Respect and ettiquet.

Anyhow back to the point at hand.....

Britian does not lack the courage to fight abroad or in any war, as our History clearly shows.

what we do lack is the courage to curb this crap on our doorstep..!

We embrace these people into our country with open arms to give them a new life...only for them not to embrace our way of life...but to instill there way and beleifs into our country.!

It infuriates me, when I hear muslim council leaders in this country, say that there is no problem within the muslim community, (what planet do they live on) and that its just the security being heavy handed, example being with the 'forrest gate' incident.
So what are we supposed to do...sit by and not go in..on a tip off, cause they are muslims....what would they say if there was a bomb, and that it had gone off, those same people would of condemed our security boys and
girls for not acting. I have no quarm with people coming here and intergrating into our society, have many friends who are 'foriegn' who do make an effort to intergrate and contribute to our nation and do not cause trouble.

We have become to soft...look at the debicle with hate preacher 'omar' how long did it take for this government, to get its finger out, and try and prosecute him..he has been living here for over 10 years preaching his crap...he should of been 'eradicated' out of this country years
ago, and thats being nice..!

anyhow....least you will be contributing something (i hope, only time will tell), I apollagise for my outburst.
Hearing of someone die, is not the same as seeing someone, who is close to you, die in front of your eyes.....i wouldnt wish it upon anybody.!
As an officer leading on the battlefield, if you get the chance, you will one day unfortunatley come across this, and you will understand what im on about..!
Good luck with Sandhurst...please do let me know where you will be based...id come round and give you a slap on your forhead....as a noob..!
[being an officer does not give you imunity from me :biggrin: ]

Stan
14 Aug 06,, 13:34
i get what you mean about no embracing our way of life or our way of doing things, that bugs me to hell and back, and i agree the muslim council of britain's letter to the government saying that our action abroad contributes to the terrorist threat we live under from our own citizens is playing right into the hands of those such terrorists, out foreign policy should never be changed because of a terrorist threat,

only one person should have the ability to change our foreign policy
good old george bush


just messing around. i was very proud to see the government ministers dismiss this letter.

lemontree
14 Aug 06,, 14:17
.... just finnished university and have been accepted to be an officer in the army.

Then you have over 600-800 yrs of tradition to uphold. All the best.

Dreadnought
14 Aug 06,, 15:10
Despite our shared battle honours, Captain, I loathe the fact that the Brits have brainwashed us into accepting the bagpipe as a source of pride in our regiments.


Sir, No direspect intended to your regiments or towards your views. I find the bagpipes wonderfull. :)

Ray
14 Aug 06,, 15:45
[QUOTE=STAN]as a person about to head of to sandhurst i would say im about to make my contribution. just finnished university and have been accepted to be an officer in the army.


I am not aware of what you may have commented about my post on which Simullacrum commented. Frankly, it does not matter a bit since your comments is, I take it, from someone rather green behind the ears.

Its good that you may head for Sandhurst, but that does not change the world one bit.

Even Prince Harry has/is passing out of Sandhurst, but that does not make him the King.

I have been a flag rank officer with combat experience in two wars (including a raid 9 miles into Pakistan). I havve also a couple of undeclared wars and many years fighting terrorism under my belt. I reckon, thus, I would have some idea about terrorism or how to be exposed to danger! Therefore, my comments may not be entirely misplaced. Notwithstanding do point out where I was wrong.

To fight terrorism, you must have resolve, not only in courage but also in will and more importantly, political will.

And in so far as combating terrorism is concerned, I am afraid the British Army has a long way to go before it can match the Indian Army's experience. British has faced terrorism in Malaysia, Palestine and ......? How many years ago? Even terrorism has undergone transmogrification and is no longer what Sir Templar confronted, even though some of the principles laid down by him to combat terrorism still holds.

The British govt is running with the hares and hunting with the hounds. It done not bode well.

The British govt must call a spade a spade.

Even in BBC's Dateline London, the upper class lady who is some "nob" ;) in the Daily Mail or some other paper had to admit that the govt was soft on all sorts of terrorist organisations that seems to have made Britain their base. 'Loopy' is the world she used (wasn't being gung ho, I presume?). If the British were so resolute as you wish to make out, would such blokes like Hamza and the other fiery cleric be allowed to go ballistics against Britain itself?! It is misplaced liberalism and a testimony of crass indulgence and impotence (for the want of a better word). While one does not have to be crude in its ways of tackling terrorism, yet one cannot make British life appear cheap in deference to political correctness and "sophistication"! I don't say that one has to adopt the skinheads tactics, but then one should also not look at fighting terrorism as attending a 'At Home' at the Buckingham Palace.

While I am fond of the Britishers, but that does not mean that one has to become an ostrich.

It is time to face the truth head on. I thought that was a British trait!

One does not have to have the gung ho attitude, but then one must have the courage to face something as disgusting as terrorism fair and square. In fact, it is audacious of a section of the immigrant British population to suggest the British govt must change its foreign policy so as to assauge the Islamic sentiments! Imagine that such a preposterous statement is the belief that is current and is being condoned!

While your jingoism is laudable, but don't you think that such a nationalist fervour should have also been inculcated into that section of the British population which feels that the British govt should tone their policies to suit the Islamists desires? It is nothing short of BLACKMAIL! And the British govt's answer to this preposterous suggestion, was some weak bleating.

No one is suggesting being gung ho. But a crackdown on such blatant anti nationalism is surely on the cards.

Mull on the following fact, chew on it and then come out with some plausible answer. If the British govt finds it prudent to ban organisations now, then they should have realised it long back rather than waking up once they bore the brunt of the lunacy on 7/7 and what now appears as rampant in Britain.

I would go one step further and it may not please you, but give it a thought. It was a clever policy to let all types of motley "liberation" movements from all over the world to have a sanctuary in the UK. It thus allowed the UK govt, which was smarting from the loss of power through the loss of the Empire, to have some leverage over its erstwhile colonies wherein, at the explicit desire of Her Majesty's govt, such "liberation" movements could wax or wane.

An example: when the Indian govt slavaged the British air industry by buying the junk Westland helicopters, the "liberation"movements were reined in!

I sure would lie to hear from you on these issues and be educated.

At least, it will give me an idea what the young Brits are thinking and how they aim to cope up with this terrorist scourge.

BTW, my cousin is in the RAC and I have had the privilege of knowing General Sir Micheal Rose, who was the AG. So, it is not that I have no idea what's up and how the broth boils over!

Stan
14 Aug 06,, 16:05
To fight terrorism, you must have resolve, not only in courage but also in will and more importantly, political will.

And in so far as combating terrorism is concerned, I am afraid the British Army has a long way to go before it can match the Indian Army's experience. British has faced terrorism in Malaysia, Palestine and ......? How many years ago? Even terrorism has undergone transmogrification and is no longer what Sir Templar confronted, even though some of the principles laid down by him to combat terrorism still holds.


i understand everything you have written and i understand your view given the situation you have faced against pakistan. above you forgot to mention northern ireland. facing that kind of terrorism isnt a walk in the park as im sure most of the british army will testify.

Yes i guess you could call me green behind the ears, but i read as much as i can so what can you do.

Ray
14 Aug 06,, 16:23
Rather silly of me to have forgotten about Northern Ireland! Yes, indeed Northern Ireland.
Nice place ;) :)

Anyway, best of luck for your Army service.

BTW, my cousin is in the RAC and was in Iraq and I also have the privilege to have had the acquaintance of General Sir Micheal Rose, who was the AG and who had come to bone up on Counter Insurgency as we do in India!

The US Army has also trained in India.

So, there must be something that we know and which others want to learn from. One does not go to a primary school for a College degree, does one?

I am not being obtuse, but imagine a whiteman learning from the brown boys! (No offence meant to anyone, but it could not have been more aptly said). That does mean something, right?

Ray
14 Aug 06,, 16:28
BTW, while I am fond of the British, still I will be the last one to condone what, in my perception, is being wimpish, be it of the British or of the Indians.

Simullakrum and Archer have hit the nail on the head.

I am tired of all these political correctness prevailing around both these countries.

Officer of Engineers
14 Aug 06,, 17:19
I am not being obtuse, but imagine a whiteman learning from the brown boys! (No offence meant to anyone, but it could not have been more aptly said). That does mean something, right?

Sir,

That's because of rather bad salesmanship on your (InA) part. The InA simply has not pique our curiosity and when you guys do, instead of taking your bow, you shrug it off as being nothing. Case in point is how your infantry tackles minefields.

Ray
15 Aug 06,, 21:10
Sir,

That's because of rather bad salesmanship on your (InA) part. The InA simply has not pique our curiosity and when you guys do, instead of taking your bow, you shrug it off as being nothing. Case in point is how your infantry tackles minefields.

You maybe right.

Fatalism is our psyche!

Actually, even now I feel that there is nothing to boast about regarding crossing of the minefields. Delays will only alert the enemy and give away the intentions and the casualties then will be more and success chancy!

Ray
15 Aug 06,, 21:14
BTW, my cousin is in the RAC and was in Iraq

Stan,

Forgot to mention.

He is not a BOR. He is a Major.

He visited me once when I was in the Army and was impressed with what he saw and he did not have the impression that India was a banana republic!

Ray
15 Aug 06,, 21:24
IF YOU'RE A MUSLIM - IT'S YOUR PROBLEM


WHEN will the Muslims of Britain stand up to be counted?

When will they declare, loud and clear, with no qualifications or quibbles about Britain's foreign policy, that Islamic terrorism is WRONG?

Most of all, when will the Muslim community in this country accept an absolute, undeniable, total truth: that Islamic terrorism is THEIR problem? THEY own it. And it is THEIR duty to face it and eradicate it.

To stop the denial, endless fudging and constant wailing that somehow it is everyone else's problem and, if Islamic terrorism exists at all, they are somehow the main victims.

Because until that happens the problem will never be resolved. And there will be more 7/7s and, sometime in the future, another airplane plot will succeed with horrific loss of innocent life.

Equally important, those British politicians who have seemed obsessed with pandering to, and even encouraging, this state of denial, must throw off their politically-correct blinkers and recognise the same truth—that Muslim terrorism in Britain is the direct responsibility of British Muslims.

If only they would follow the lead of Home Secretary John Reid, whose tough, pragmatic, clear-sighted approach has been a breath of fresh air. Only then can they properly work out how to tackle it.

For instance, every airport in Britain is in chaos over the plane bomb-plot alert as every passenger is subjected to rigorous security checks. Why? They take lots of time, lots of staff, and are extremely expensive.

I'm a white 62-year-old 6ft 4ins suit-wearing ex-cop—I fly often, but do I really fit the profile of suicide bomber? Does the young mum with three tots? The gay couple, the rugby team, the middle-aged businessman?

No. But they are all getting exactly the same amount and devouring huge resources for no logical reason whatsoever. Yet the truth is Islamic terrorism in the West has been universally carried out by young Muslim men, usually of ethnic appearance, almost always travelling alone or in very small groups. A tiny percentage, I bet, of those delayed today have such characteristics.

This targeting of airport resources is called passenger profiling—the Israelis invented it and they've got probably the safest airports and airlines in the world.

In all my years at the front line of fighting terrorism, one truth was always clear — communities beat terrorists, not governments or security forces. But communities can't beat terrorism unless they have the will to do so. My heart sank this week as I saw and read the knee-jerk reaction of friends and neighbours of those arrested in this latest incident, insisting it was all a mistake and the anti-terrorist squad had the wrong people.

I have no idea whether those arrested are guilty or not. But neither have those friends and neighbours. They spoke as if it was inconceivable such a thing could happen in their community; that those arrested were all good Muslims; that Islam is a religion of peace so no Muslim could dream of planning such an act.

But we heard the same from the family and friends of the 7/7 bombers, didn't we?

And the two young British Muslims who died as suicide bombers in Israel. Then there are the British Muslims known to have become suicide bombers in Iraq.

There is currently a huge, long-running and complex alleged Islamist bomb plot being tried at the Old Bailey. And a fistful of other cases of alleged Muslim terrorism plots such as the 21/7 London Underground case are also awaiting trial.

All this would suggest the blindingly obvious—that terrorism is a major problem for the Muslim community of Britain. Of course, there will be instant squealings that this is racism. It's not. It's exactly the same as recognising that, during the Northern Ireland troubles that left thousands dead, the IRA were totally based in the Catholic community and the UVF in the Protestant.

And that, most importantly, IRA terrorism only began to draw to a close when that Catholic community it was based in decided as a whole that it was no longer prepared to back violence as the only way forward. Interestingly, it was Catholic revulsion over republican terrorist atrocities such as Enniskillen and Omagh that fuelled that change.

Well, Muslim terrorism in Britain is based in, has its roots in, and grows in, our Muslim community. The madmen of 7/7 and other suicide bombings didn't hide among the Hindu communities, worship in the Sikh temples, recruit at Catholic churches, did they? It may be true that events in Iraq have angered sections of the Muslim community. I have no doubts, whatever Tony Blair says, that it was a catalyst. I also think it's entirely fair for Muslims, if they wish, to vocally oppose Britain's continuing involvement there.

I can recognise, too, that recent events in Lebanon inflame some people, and they want their voices of protest heard. The absolutely unacceptable problem is that this opposition is used by too many to turn a blind eye to, or excuse, terrorists in their midst.

Blasting a passenger airliner out of the sky, killing hundreds of innocent men, women and children, is NEVER acceptable. Under any circumstances. There is NEVER an excuse.

A terrible tragedy costing Muslim lives in Lebanon or Iraq or Afghanistan is never ever an excuse for terrorism here.

It is totally unacceptable, totally wrong. What one party perceives as a wrong, no matter how strongly they feel, does not, in turn, justify another wrong being done to avenge it.

And until every single member of the Muslim community believes that and preaches that—from an ordinary parent to imam or madrassa teacher—terrorism can't be beaten.

Politicians must accept this truth, and do something about it. One example would be to tackle this chaos at our airports and the passenger profiling I described earlier. Another must is to reconsider ID cards. The importance of knowing whether someone really is who they say they are has never been higher.

This must be combined with improved border controls, logging exactly who goes OUT of the country as well as who comes in should also be reconsidered, whatever the politically correct among us may say. The time terrorism suspects are kept in custody before charge has also caused dissent. Currently the maximum is 28 days—it may well be this should be reconsidered and, if necessary, raised again to, say, 42 days.

Plainly, Muslim terrorism isn't going away. We need to consider everything in our battle to defeat it. But that's the responsibility of all.

Not least the community where, sadly for them, it is festering.
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/lordstevens.shtml

That is what Lord Stevens says.

What does the British govt say?

Ray
15 Aug 06,, 21:32
Stan,

Care to comment on this?


Britain Must Reject Appeasement of Islamic Terrorists
by Nile Gardiner, Ph.D.
WebMemo #1194

August 15, 2006 |
Printer-Friendly Version
| Email to A Friend

In an open letter to the British Prime Minister responding to last week’s successful anti-terror operations, the leaders of 38 Muslim groups and six Muslim politicians called for immediate changes to British foreign policy, which is “ammunition to extremists who threaten us all.”[1] The letter attacked the “debacle of Iraq” and, in reference to Israeli military action in Lebanon, faulted “the failure to do more to secure an immediate end to the attacks on civilians in the Middle East.” It stated that “current British government policy risks putting civilians at increased risk both in the U.K. and abroad.”



This letter is a wake-up call to the British government. It shatters any illusions that the government’s policy of engagement with leading “moderate” Muslim groups since the 2005 London bombings has reaped any benefits. Downing Street must now rethink its top-down approach to reaching out to the U.K.’s two million Muslims.



Coming just two days after the U.K. averted a 9/11-scale atrocity by arresting 24 British Muslim terror suspects, the Muslim leaders’ letter blames British foreign policy for the attempted attacks. This is a thinly veiled threat: Britain should expect more terror attacks unless it changes its worldview. The letter does not condemn the terrorists involved, attempting instead to establish moral equivalence between the Anglo-American-led war on terror and the actions of brutal terrorists.



This statement from so many of Britain’s most prominent Muslims—its signatories include the leaders of the largest Muslim organizations in Britain, such as the Muslim Association of Britain, the Muslim Council of Britain, the British Muslim Forum, and the Muslim Solidarity Committee—should prove a watershed moment in how the British government interacts with the large Muslim organizations that claim to speak on behalf of moderate Islam. The United Kingdom must not give in to blackmail and intimidation. British foreign policy should be shaped by national interest and by British values, not by pressure groups threatening dire consequences if their demands are not met. Downing Street and the Foreign Office should cut ties with organizations that support extremist positions and actively engage truly moderate Muslims who are committed to supporting the war on terrorism.



An Act of Disloyalty

The open letter by Muslim leaders is a cynical act of disloyalty toward Britain. It echoes the propaganda of militant Islamic extremist organizations like al-Qaeda, expounding the view that the West is to blame for terrorist attacks because of its support for Israel and its actions in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other parts of the Islamic world. After the 2005 London bombings, al-Qaeda’s second in command, Ayman al-Zawahiri told the British people in a taped broadcast that “Blair’s policies brought you destruction in central London and will bring you more destruction,” warning of further attacks unless “the people of the crusader coalition…leave Muslim land.”[2] Last week’s open letter echoes this sentiment.



The open letter to Tony Blair is the modern-day equivalent of the anti-British propaganda spewed by fascists in the 1930s and 1940s. And it raises new questions of collaboration between some Muslims organizations and radical Islamists, ties that have been exposed in several recently published studies.[3]



The British government should support a Royal Commission of Inquiry into the relationship between Britain’s leading Muslim groups and radical Islamic organizations and individuals, as well as the sources of funding for these bodies. In addition, parliament should hold hearings on the activities of leading Muslim organizations. In the United States, the Department of Homeland Security should increase its scrutiny of British Muslim leaders who may have links with extremist groups in the United Kingdom, Pakistan, or elsewhere and bar any that do from entering the U.S.



Reject Appeasement

As Sir Winston Churchill once noted, “An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping that it will eat him last.”



The near-catastrophic attempted terrorist attacks on American airliners flying from London to the United States underscore that the world is engaged in an epic war against Islamic terrorism. Not only America’s conflict, it is also Britain’s war, Europe’s war, and the free world’s war. Had the terrorists been successful, thousands of people of multiple nationalities and religions would have been killed. Britain has thus become a central front in the war on terrorism, and British security services are currently involved in 70 anti-terrorist investigations, including 24 “major conspiracies.”[4]



But the unchallenged appeasement of terrorism by Britain’s Muslim leaders sets a dangerous precedent and will only increase the likelihood of terrorist attacks on British soil. British ministers, as well as leaders of the opposition Conservative Party, should condemn the statements of Muslim leaders linking the actions of homegrown terrorists to the British- and American-led war on terrorism.



Britain needs a new generation of Muslim leaders who are untainted by association with, or sympathy for, Islamic extremism and who are proud of their British identity. They must be willing to condemn terrorism unequivocally and help root out extremists from Muslim communities. Their role in helping defeat Islamic terrorism will be invaluable.



At the same time, Britain must redouble its efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan, where British, American, and other Allied forces are actively engaged in the fight against al-Qaeda. The war against Islamic fascism will make Britain and the rest of Europe safer and sap the strength of Islamic extremism inside the U.K. The British Government should reject the message of appeasement and remind the U.K.’s Muslim leaders that Britain is a nation at war with a vicious terrorist movement and ideology whose goal is the destruction of the West.



Nile Gardiner, Ph.D., is the Bernard and Barbara Lomas Fellow and Director of the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom, a division of the Kathryn and Shelby Cullom Davis Institute for International Studies, at The Heritage Foundation. Peter Cuthbertson assisted with research for this paper.



[1] See Open Letter to Tony Blair, BBC News Online, August 12, 2006, at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4786159.stm?ls. See also Inayat Bunglawala, Assistant Secretary-General of the Muslim Council of Britain, “It’s Undeniable: British Foreign Policy is Endangering All of Us,” The Times, August 12, 2006.



[2] “Al-Qaeda Warns of ‘More Destruction in London’ Over Blair Policy on Iraq,” Financial Times, August 5, 2005.



[3] For further insight into the links between some of Britain’s leading Muslim groups and Islamic extremism, see Melanie Phillips, Londonistan (New York, 2006), and Martin Bright, “When Progressives Treat with Reactionaries: The British State’s Flirtation with Radical Islamism,” Policy Exchange, 2006.



[4] “Terror Police Target 70 ‘Plots,’” The Daily Telegraph, August 14, 2006.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Europe/wm1194.cfm

Ray
15 Aug 06,, 21:48
Now, I am not saying Blair is soft on terrorism. The Britishers themselves are saying it!


Right showing left the way on radical Islam


It's fascism by any other name and it's time that all political factions joined forces to fight it

Martin Bright
Sunday July 30, 2006
The Observer

I am being feted by the right. As the political editor of the New Statesman and usually written off by conservative thinkers as a dangerous, pinko liberal, this is a novel and rather awkward position in which to find myself.

Two weeks ago, Channel 4 screened a programme I presented concerning Whitehall's love affair with radical Islam. It was based on a stream of Foreign Office leaks first published in The Observer and the New Statesman which showed that mandarins were prepared to open lines of communication with organisations such Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood. Since then, the right-wing plaudits for my work keep coming in, not just in this country but from America, too, where none other than David Frum, the neoconservative Bush adviser credited with coining 'axis of evil', has begun quoting my work approvingly. Neocon journal American Thinker ran a 2,500-word analysis of my findings. While any attention is always welcome, these offers of solidarity are also a challenge.

The programme was accompanied by a pamphlet I wrote for the centre-right 'Cameroon' think-tank, Policy Exchange, which identified an ongoing Foreign Office policy to develop links with Islamists abroad and in Britain. I argued that progressives on the left and right of British politics should view this with concern, especially in the domestic context, where mainstream voices were being kept from dialogue with government by groups ideologically linked to Islamists in the Middle East such as the Muslim Brotherhood and its south Asian equivalent, Jamaat-i-Islami. Chief among these is the Muslim Council of Britain, whose leadership has established sympathies for the Jamaat-i-Islami in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Both the Brotherhood and the Jamaat believe in the creation of an Islamic state and the establishment of Sharia law.

Conservative commentators in Britain were also quick to take up the cause. Peter Dobbie praised the programme in the Mail on Sunday for 'lifting the lid' on the Foreign Office's dalliance with the radicals. Frank Johnson, Telegraph columnist and former Spectator editor, described the Policy Exchange document, rather generously, as 'one of the most important pamphlets for decades' and said that I had 'presided over a fine... documentary'. Writing in the Spectator, former Telegraph editor Charles Moore said: 'Sorry to praise the New Statesman in these pages, but its political editor, Martin Bright, has just produced an excellent pamphlet.' I realise that their reaction does not come without an agenda. There is no doubt that at it has fed into the perception in some circles on the left, encouraged by the MCB, that I am part of some Islamophobic campaign to 'divide and rule' Britain's Muslims.

It is depressing that so few on the left have been prepared to engage with the issue of the Foreign Office appeasement of radical Islam except to minimise its significance. In contrast, the responses on the right have been largely measured. Moore, for instance, fitted the Foreign Office's search for radical figures it could do business with, such as Muslim Brotherhood's spiritual head, Yusuf al-Qaradawi, into a wider historical perspective. In the 1930s, we adopted a similar strategy with the Mufti of Jerusalem to 'deliver' Muslim opinion. The Mufti went on to support the Nazis.

Meanwhile, Johnson identified the British left's troubling ability to celebrate oppressive ideologies. 'Some of us distinctly non-leftists have been worried about the growing signs that certain Western leftists have embraced militant Islam as they embraced Jacobinism and Stalinism: as a powerful force against the Western bourgeoisie and as a source of support among the British masses,' he said. But he also saw that there was another tendency on the left which recognised the totalitarian tendency within Islamism: 'Many leftists see militant Islam as destructive of the European rationalism in which the left has its true roots.'

So far so good. There are even some on the centre ground of British politics who are beginning to talk about a 'popular front' of progressives opposed to the rise of militant Islam in an alliance modelled on the democrats of left and right who united to oppose fascism in the 1930s. But this will be impossible while deep divisions exist over the conduct of the war in Iraq and Israel's savage attack on Lebanon, both of which will help build support for radical Islam across the Muslim world and in Britain. But the principle is a good one.

Professor Chetan Bhatt of Goldsmith's University in London is one of the few thinkers on the left to have developed a coherent position on the religious right. In an essay to be published later this year, he argues that the left must rethink the way it deals with Islamists at the exclusion of genuinely progressive secular and religious voices within Britain's south Asian Muslim communities. 'The left, despite its knowledge of the horrifying politics of communal and religious sectarianism in south Asia, has often been unable to grasp the existence of the "fascisms of the powerless" or the small communal "fascisms" in everyday civic life. Acknowledging this means facing numerous political directions at once, as painstakingly complicated and difficult as this initially seems.'

Meanwhile, the Foreign Office seems determined to press ahead with courting radical Islamists. Just this month, the British government paid for Yusuf al-Qaradawi to attend a conference in Turkey to discuss the future of European Islam. At home, it funded two Islamist youth organisations, the Federation of Islamic Student Societies and Young Muslim Organisation, to help run a roadshow of Muslim scholars to tour the country. Fosis and YMO, while condemning violence, are ideological allies of the Muslim Brotherhood and Jamaat-i-Islami. It is ironic that conservative thinkers categorise these organisations accurately as part of an Islamist extreme right, while many on the left continue, wrongly, to see them as part of some wider international Muslim liberation movement.

While this situation remains, there is no shame for those on the left opposed to the rise of radical Islam to build alliances with conservatives prepared to call fascism by its real name.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1833390,00.html

Ray
15 Aug 06,, 21:52
Maybe I am unable to observe the suave style that the Blair govt is employing to erridicate Islamic terrorism from the UK and I would hasten to add, from the world, since Britain has become the nursery for the radical motley crowd of disloyal British born immigrant class from particular countries.

The British "liberal" outlook has always been like a flame to the moth for all types of sods who want to turn the world into a hell hole.

Officer of Engineers
16 Aug 06,, 00:55
Actually, even now I feel that there is nothing to boast about regarding crossing of the minefields. Delays will only alert the enemy and give away the intentions and the casualties then will be more and success chancy!

Sir,

Consider how we do the equivelent. We helo insert two platoons on the other side of the minefield to give us engineers the time to breach that field. Now, once we breached that minefield, those two platoons can't just get up and go, they have to pass off to the breaching force to go through before they can regroup and replenish themselves for the next task.

In other words, we lost the usage of those platoons until they can get their heads straight on again.

In the very abstract, your way accomplishes the same thing with alot less resources and assets. The hardest part though, your losses are casualties, not exhaustion - but it is more combat effective.

Even if we have to do it your way, the preference would be to use the engineering recee and assualt pioneer teams instead of regular infantry but again, once on the other side of the minefield, your way is still more combat effective.

This does not mean that our infantry is unwilling to do the same but it is not normal practise and we certainly do cringe at the prospect.

Do you see the difference, Sir?

lemontree
16 Aug 06,, 05:08
Colonel sir,
Your army crossed minefields the same way as we do, back in 1945, its just that the manner of deployment of your enemy dictates your tactics.

Officer of Engineers
16 Aug 06,, 05:24
Captain, if you have not noticed, this is not 1945. For goodness sake, Gentlemen, will you not take a bow?!?!

lemontree
16 Aug 06,, 06:11
Brig. Ray has to take the bow....
...as for me, I would have preferred that the armour units we were training with would move first with their plows. ;)

Archer
16 Aug 06,, 06:17
a nice reply mate. i understand your point and i conceed we should be acting quicker to stem the funds of these groups coming through the uk. you have to remember though as well that the uk and london has the biggest concentration of banks in the world. thats alot to track. but you are right

my comment about the empress of india was a cheap shot at a joke and i apologise for that.
for my part i will continue to hope that india
1. gets a permanent un seat
2. outstrips china's development
any how thanks for the best wishes, my mother doesnt think i will get on too well though im at home atm doing alot of gym work and such to prepare myself. but she says if i dont start tackling the ironing pile ill never make it at sandhurst. worst thing is i think she could be right,

so for a limited time only ill iron every ones shirts here.

Mate, that was a gracious reply. And no need to iron any shirts :) , if you'r ever in India and my neck of the woods, beers on me.
Meanwhile, when the heck are you ruddy blokes going to get your act together and win the football world cup? :mad: :biggrin:

Archer
16 Aug 06,, 06:18
Brig. Ray has to take the bow....
...as for me, I would have preferred that the armour units we were training with would move first with their plows. ;)

Capt, is the normal doctrine to charge thru the Mines or wait for engineers/ armour...and only proceed through (charge) if they are unavailable?

Parihaka
16 Aug 06,, 07:31
Bagpipes make an obscene noise.


Hands off the Bagpipes! They're Scottish, not English, and it was the Scots regiments that took the world, the Brit shopkeepers just came in afterward.....

Archer
16 Aug 06,, 09:27
Hi Pari,

That you in your avatar? You look younger than I though you'd be. :cool: :biggrin:

lemontree
16 Aug 06,, 09:44
Capt, is the normal doctrine to charge thru the Mines or wait for engineers/ armour...and only proceed through (charge) if they are unavailable?
For maintenance of momentum, one does not wait for armour or engineer support, the arty pounds the area and the infantry moves in (even if armour is available). Effective shelling can chewup a minefield to make the attackers task easier.

Armour cannot reach everywhere, so one has to put life and limb at risk.

Parihaka
16 Aug 06,, 09:44
Hi Pari,

That you in your avatar? You look younger than I though you'd be. :cool: :biggrin:
Alas no, he's far better looking.
That, as the signature at the bottom says, is the great James Bruce, 8th Earl of Elgin. His daddy was of course the scourge of the Parthenon.
8th was known as the Great Barbarian, renowned for sacking the Summer Palace at Bejing as retribution for the torture and killing of some of his men, and convincing the Americans to not annex Canada, basically by getting them drunk and scaring them about what all those proto-liberal votes would do to the ballance of power between the Southern and Northern states.
He is without doubt the greatest European politico of the 19th century, Bismarck be damned.

Ray
16 Aug 06,, 18:11
Colonel,

On behalf of the InA, I take the bow! :)

Ray
16 Aug 06,, 18:18
Stan,

Don't take my earlier posts to heart.

It is because I do have a fondness for you chaps that I just cannot fathom why Blair cannot get his teeth into the problem. If the British could organise an Empire where the sun never set and hold onto it for centuries, then the current situation really makes one wonder, what is going wrong!

The appeasement does gets one's goat!

I saw a CNN broadcast today and one bloke said that Moslems will never do such a thing and the govt has made a big mistake! And that is being believed!

Another Britisher (white), a bloke who has written some book on the problem, very vociferously advocated that the UK should change its foreign policy if it wants terrorism to be wiped out off its soil!

It is your country and you know what is best for you.

As far as what you Mother told you about how you will perform in Sandhurst (if I have understood correctly), don't worry.

As a schoolboy I loved to sleep instead of being up and about in the morning. And I had a fondness for Rommel, the Desert Fox. My father said that I sure would make it to the Army, not as the Desert Fox, but as the Sleeping Fox!

I survived the Army and these days I do without sleep as the some WAB members will vouch :)

I am sure you will do well.

Archer
16 Aug 06,, 18:27
For maintenance of momentum, one does not wait for armour or engineer support, the arty pounds the area and the infantry moves in (even if armour is available). Effective shelling can chewup a minefield to make the attackers task easier.

Armour cannot reach everywhere, so one has to put life and limb at risk.

But is the Arty supposed to shell the minefield per doctrine at least*, or is it Jai bole so Nihal, sat sri Akal?

*do they plan for this as a given, or in real life, its spotty?

Ray
16 Aug 06,, 18:35
Capt, is the normal doctrine to charge thru the Mines or wait for engineers/ armour...and only proceed through (charge) if they are unavailable?

If the armour crosses the minefields (without ploughs) and then shed their track, they will be sitting ducks.

If the Engineers start breaching, the intent and the exact area of our interest will be given out.

Therefore, the only option is to traverse the minefield and have faith in the Almighty.

Once you are in a minefield, it is better than you cross it fast (of course in an orderly military fashion) rather than bite an enemy bullet.

Artillery does blow mines in the area of the blast and those activated by the concussion. It also throw up the mines. But it is no guarantee for a safe crossing.

God alone is your Saviour!

A great feeling though.

You enjoy this feeling more, when your men and you have crossed the minefield and are safe.

lemontree
17 Aug 06,, 05:31
But is the Arty supposed to shell the minefield per doctrine at least*, or is it Jai bole so Nihal, sat sri Akal?

*do they plan for this as a given, or in real life, its spotty?
Arty basically hits the enemy positions as per the fire plan. One can cater to cover the minefield too, but as Brig Ray, pointed out, this not a fool proof way of mine clearence. It also depends on the number of fire units available for support (one battery is one fire unit).


Most of the time its is either "Bole so nihal....Sat Sri Akal" or "Jai Ma Kali....Ayo Gurkhali". :biggrin:

sappersgt
17 Aug 06,, 06:28
Arty basically hits the enemy positions as per the fire plan. One can cater to cover the minefield too, but as Brig Ray, pointed out, this not a fool proof way of mine clearence. It also depends on the number of fire units available for support (one battery is one fire unit).


Most of the time its is either "Bole so nihal....Sat Sri Akal" or "Jai Ma Kali....Ayo Gurkhali". :biggrin:

Concentrated 81mm mortar fire can be used to clear a path of anti personnel mines. It will set off or destroy MOST of the mines in a narrow path. This method is to be used only in extremis, when there is no time and the minefield is covered by fire making it impossible to clear. Heavier artillery fire might be more effective if available. Unfortunately I say this from personal experience. That is a memory I would just as soon forget and I can honestly say I don't know if I would do it again. :frown:

Ray
17 Aug 06,, 07:02
Concentration of artillery or mortar fire can be of great help for a safe crossing.

Such a method would require a great amount of deliberation and would be based on the situation and the tactical environment.

Concentration of artillery/ mortar fire in a specific area and in a pattern will give away the intention and direction of the attack. This obviously will attract the fire of maximum weapons of the defender in that direction i.e. the direction of attack.

If one fires all along the front in equal concentration, then it would be expensive in effort and ammuntion, apart from being a logistic problem since dumping of ammunition before the attack will be immense and dumping of ammuntion is another give away of the intention

The aim of any attack is to disperse the enemy fire and keep him guessing as to the direction of the attack. Surprise, a Principle of War, is an important factor in keeping own casualties low and increase the success of the attack.

sappersgt
17 Aug 06,, 09:46
Concentration of artillery or mortar fire can be of great help for a safe crossing.

Such a method would require a great amount of deliberation and would be based on the situation and the tactical environment.

Concentration of artillery/ mortar fire in a specific area and in a pattern will give away the intention and direction of the attack. This obviously will attract the fire of maximum weapons of the defender in that direction i.e. the direction of attack.

If one fires all along the front in equal concentration, then it would be expensive in effort and ammuntion, apart from being a logistic problem since dumping of ammunition before the attack will be immense and dumping of ammuntion is another give away of the intention

The aim of any attack is to disperse the enemy fire and keep him guessing as to the direction of the attack. Surprise, a Principle of War, is an important factor in keeping own casualties low and increase the success of the attack.

In this instance I was tasked with clearing a number of machine guns emplaced in earth and log bunkers protected by mines.This was in support of a battalion attack which was to be coordinated with another assault. Timing was crucial. The minefield prevented me from maneuvering against the enemy positions and the machine gun fire made clearing the mines a marginal proposition.

I didn't have time to either infiltrate some men behind their positions nor wait for my snipers to attrite the enemy gunners. Artillery fire was denied for the reason that it would give away tactical surprise (!?). With everyone from the brigade commander on down yelling to clear those bunkers I ordered the attack. My first stick promptly lost half their men with the rest pinned down.

Luckily for me we had replaced the companies 2' mortars we previously had with a single 82mm tube. I ordered them to fire every HE round we had carried into a 10 meter (being hopefully optimistic) area followed by all the smoke rounds we had. The men were a bit reluctant to believe it would work. So putting on a brave face (In fact I wasn't so sure it would work) I went first with the rest of the men following.

I lost two more men in the assault to a mine the mortar barrage missed, one of which was eventually returned to duty. After the first bunker the rest were relatively easy as we could out flank them. God was looking out for me that day.

lemontree
17 Aug 06,, 10:31
In this instance I was tasked with clearing a number of machine guns emplaced in earth and log bunkers protected by mines.This was in support of a battalion attack which was to be coordinated with another assault. Timing was crucial. The minefield prevented me from maneuvering against the enemy positions and the machine gun fire made clearing the mines a marginal proposition.

I didn't have time to either infiltrate some men behind their positions nor wait for my snipers to attrite the enemy gunners. Artillery fire was denied for the reason that it would give away tactical surprise (!?). With everyone from the brigade commander on down yelling to clear those bunkers I ordered the attack. My first stick promptly lost half their men with the rest pinned down.

Luckily for me we had replaced the companies 2' mortars we previously had with a single 82mm tube. I ordered them to fire every HE round we had carried into a 10 meter (being hopefully optimistic) area followed by all the smoke rounds we had. The men were a bit reluctant to believe it would work. So putting on a brave face (In fact I wasn't so sure it would work) I went first with the rest of the men following.

I lost two more men in the assault to a mine the mortar barrage missed, one of which was eventually returned to duty. After the first bunker the rest were relatively easy as we could out flank them. God was looking out for me that day.
Which part of the world was this in? and which war/scrap?

Archer
17 Aug 06,, 10:54
Good lord Capt & Brig, if you guys knew this before hand, would you still go for the infantry? Damn, that requires some guts!

Armour seems safer now!

Brrrr, running through minefields pro forma? You guys have b@lls of steel!

Also this entire business seems to be built upon a mathematical logic that there will be x mines in the area, what if the bozos go and mine every inch, in a manner of speaking?

Thanks for your comments, I can understand the tactical imperatives that drive it, but it still makes me go google eyed
-----------

Capt, I think he's speaking of the South African Bush wars, they were pretty nasty.

sappersgt
17 Aug 06,, 15:17
Which part of the world was this in? and which war/scrap?Angola. In retrospect I'm not sure I'd do THAT one again! :)

Ray
17 Aug 06,, 19:42
In this instance I was tasked with clearing a number of machine guns emplaced in earth and log bunkers protected by mines.This was in support of a battalion attack which was to be coordinated with another assault. Timing was crucial. The minefield prevented me from maneuvering against the enemy positions and the machine gun fire made clearing the mines a marginal proposition.

I didn't have time to either infiltrate some men behind their positions nor wait for my snipers to attrite the enemy gunners. Artillery fire was denied for the reason that it would give away tactical surprise (!?). With everyone from the brigade commander on down yelling to clear those bunkers I ordered the attack. My first stick promptly lost half their men with the rest pinned down.

Luckily for me we had replaced the companies 2' mortars we previously had with a single 82mm tube. I ordered them to fire every HE round we had carried into a 10 meter (being hopefully optimistic) area followed by all the smoke rounds we had. The men were a bit reluctant to believe it would work. So putting on a brave face (In fact I wasn't so sure it would work) I went first with the rest of the men following.

I lost two more men in the assault to a mine the mortar barrage missed, one of which was eventually returned to duty. After the first bunker the rest were relatively easy as we could out flank them. God was looking out for me that day.


Once you have crossed the Start Line or what I think is called the Line of Departure in the US, then what you is what would be done to clear what we call "nests".

If your action was independent and before the H hour, then it could have been done as you say, if it were not in the direct line of the attack. It would have been ideal for Deception.

Anyway, I commend you and your men for what you did. Any army would be proud of the action.

Nothing suceeds like success!

Also since the whole tactical picture is not known, my comments are as based on what I comprehended and is no reflection on any action of any army.

In retrospect, I think you should do it again, the loss of lives being the only thing that is saddening.

Which Army are you from? I will like to say it is a dashed good army and would have loved to have people from that army in a UN contingent; that is because you have written it was in Angola.

sappersgt
17 Aug 06,, 21:58
Once you have crossed the Start Line or what I think is called the Line of Departure in the US, then what you is what would be done to clear what we call "nests".

If your action was independent and before the H hour, then it could have been done as you say, if it were not in the direct line of the attack. It would have been ideal for Deception.

Anyway, I commend you and your men for what you did. Any army would be proud of the action.

Nothing suceeds like success!

Also since the whole tactical picture is not known, my comments are as based on what I comprehended and is no reflection on any action of any army.

In retrospect, I think you should do it again, the loss of lives being the only thing that is saddening.

Which Army are you from? I will like to say it is a dashed good army and would have loved to have people from that army in a UN contingent; that is because you have written it was in Angola.

Sir,
It's not often I've received a compliment from much less spoken to a General officer. Thank you. I was a Sapper or Sturmpioneer in the South African Army. The action I described occurred prior to and in support of the main attack. That's why timing and surprise were important.

As you well know it's not about being brave or how big your bullocks are. It's about the percentages. What will succeed and cause you the fewest casualties. That's why the troops like a "lucky" commander, one that is perceived as "beating the odds". In reality that means you do the thing with the highest chance of success. Sometimes you have a choice of bad, really bad or indescribeably bad. In this case attacking through the corridor made by the mortars was the right thing to do. They were without a doubt the best troops I've ever seen in any army.

The only reason I wonder if I'd do it again is because I went first and someone following me stepped on a mine I had already passed over. That kind of thing will make you believe in Divine Providence if you didn't already. Like I said God was watching out for me that day. :)

lemontree
18 Aug 06,, 05:01
Good lord Capt & Brig, if you guys knew this before hand, would you still go for the infantry? Damn, that requires some guts!

Armour seems safer now!

Brrrr, running through minefields pro forma? You guys have b@lls of steel!

Also this entire business seems to be built upon a mathematical logic that there will be x mines in the area, what if the bozos go and mine every inch, in a manner of speaking?

Thanks for your comments, I can understand the tactical imperatives that drive it, but it still makes me go google eyed
-----------

Capt, I think he's speaking of the South African Bush wars, they were pretty nasty.
You are correct that this mine field walk is based on mathematical logic, in all wars the IA experience has been 3-4% casulties by minefields, i.e in coy attack it means loosing only 4-6 men (wounded). The point is that this is the price to be paid for crossing the obstacle and giving the enemy no benifit for their labour.

My generation has made numerous improvements for breaching minefields in plains, but in mountains its the same old blood & guts story that we saw in Kargil.

lemontree
18 Aug 06,, 05:07
The only reason I wonder if I'd do it again is because I went first and someone following me stepped on a mine I had already passed over. That kind of thing will make you believe in Divine Providence if you didn't already. Like I said God was watching out for me that day. :)
Those of us who have been there and done that know that "Divine Providence" is a reality. It make you believe in God.

Were you a sapper in an infantry battalion or an Engineer Regt?

Second, question - How come the SA army uses the 82mm, is'nt most of your small arms British/ NATO origin?

sappersgt
18 Aug 06,, 06:31
Those of us who have been there and done that know that "Divine Providence" is a reality. It make you believe in God.

Were you a sapper in an infantry battalion or an Engineer Regt?

Second, question - How come the SA army uses the 82mm, is'nt most of your small arms British/ NATO origin?

Each Brigade had a Sapper company of between 60 and 80 men.

The South African Army does use 81mm mortars at the battalion level. Our company was issued a pair of 2" (50mm) mortars. We replaced ours with a captured 82mm mortar. The heavier mortar wasn't authorized in our TOE but as they were captured weapons nobody cared. We modified ours by cutting the barrel down to the lug, shortening the bipod and sectioning the base plate giving it a total weight of about 75lbs. This gave us a weapon with a much greater (and useful) throw weight than the 2" mortar. It was much more effective weapon especially with smoke, incendiary or illumination rounds. It also had the added benefit of being able to take enemy (82mm) ammunition as well as 81mm.

We also replaced our issue LAWS with captured RPGs after finding the LAWS useless against Russian tanks in Namibia. This did create some trouble initially with supply about replacement rockets but they got over it!:biggrin: Quartermasters! :rolleyes:

sappersgt
18 Aug 06,, 06:52
Those of us who have been there and done that know that "Divine Providence" is a reality. It make you believe in God.

Were you a sapper in an infantry battalion or an Engineer Regt?


I gather by your inference the IA has Sappers at Bn level. Are they organic or attached as opposed to Engineering troops? :confused:

Ray
18 Aug 06,, 07:34
We have integral pioneers at the Battalion level.

Engineer companies are attached to Brigades from the Division resources as per the requirement.

lemontree
18 Aug 06,, 08:17
Each Brigade had a Sapper company of between 60 and 80 men.

The South African Army does use 81mm mortars at the battalion level. Our company was issued a pair of 2" (50mm) mortars. We replaced ours with a captured 82mm mortar. The heavier mortar wasn't authorized in our TOE but as they were captured weapons nobody cared. We modified ours by cutting the barrel down to the lug, shortening the bipod and sectioning the base plate giving it a total weight of about 75lbs. This gave us a weapon with a much greater (and useful) throw weight than the 2" mortar. It was much more effective weapon especially with smoke, incendiary or illumination rounds. It also had the added benefit of being able to take enemy (82mm) ammunition as well as 81mm.

We also replaced our issue LAWS with captured RPGs after finding the LAWS useless against Russian tanks in Namibia. This did create some trouble initially with supply about replacement rockets but they got over it!:biggrin: Quartermasters! :rolleyes:
Your TOE is unique since your sapper coy is equipped with mortars and AT weapons. But I guess your tactical requirements would have dictated inclusion of such weapons for a sapper coy.

I gather by your inference the IA has Sappers at Bn level. Are they organic or attached as opposed to Engineering troops?
Brig. Ray sir, has already answered that query.

sappersgt
18 Aug 06,, 08:41
Your TOE is unique since your sapper coy is equipped with mortars and AT weapons. But I guess your tactical requirements would have dictated inclusion of such weapons for a sapper coy.

Brig. Ray sir, has already answered that query.

My company parachuted into Namibia with 81 men including a Captain, a Sargent and 4 Corporals organized in 3 platoons and a weapons platoon.

Antitank weapons were issued "as needed". One thing not liked about RPGs was that each launcher meant one less man with rifle and if he got hit you lost all that firepower (unless someone picked it up). Everything is a compromise.

Officer of Engineers
18 Aug 06,, 19:03
You were doing an airborne job? With no infantry? Well, I'm damned impressed.

Blademaster
18 Aug 06,, 19:09
My company parachuted into Namibia with 81 men including a Captain, a Sargent and 4 Corporals organized in 3 platoons and a weapons platoon.


When was that?



Antitank weapons were issued "as needed". One thing not liked about RPGs was that each launcher meant one less man with rifle and if he got hit you lost all that firepower (unless someone picked it up). Everything is a compromise.

Does that person carry several RPGs? Why can't he carry a rifle at the same time?

Ray
18 Aug 06,, 19:27
A person carrying an RPG cannot carry a rifle because he is tasked for Anti Tank duties. It is also cumbersome to have a rifle in addition to an RPG and also the weight factor.

leib10
18 Aug 06,, 20:02
Both can be lugged about, but if the man has to move fast and keep up with the rest of the squad he can be a real liability. He could carry a pistol for self-defense.




Does that person carry several RPGs? Why can't he carry a rifle at the same time?

Yes, he can carry several rocket projectiles in a satchel-like sack carried on the back.

Ray
18 Aug 06,, 20:05
The personal weapon of the RPG man is indeed a pistol.

sappersgt
18 Aug 06,, 22:28
You were doing an airborne job? With no infantry? Well, I'm damned impressed.

Well, that's why we got airborne pay (25% of the already double Sapper pay)! As I understood it we were the only airborne quailified unit available. The jump out of a Hercules just before sunset has to go down as one the most picturesque jumps I have ever made. I remember thinking the march to our objective through the African savanna at dusk was like being in a National Geographic special. Pretty cool to a city kid from California. :cool:

lemontree
21 Aug 06,, 04:42
sappersgt,
So you guys probably fought against the Cubans in Angola and SWAPO in Namibia. Did ever get into see action against the earlier 'ANC' guerilla army version? I don't know your age profile, hence the question.

sappersgt
21 Aug 06,, 06:30
sappersgt,
So you guys probably fought against the Cubans in Angola and SWAPO in Namibia. Did ever get into see action against the earlier 'ANC' guerilla army version? I don't know your age profile, hence the question.


Yes we ran up against Cubans both in Mozambique and Angola. Found some Chinese advisors in Zambia. I was there for the later (post 76) troubles. We deployed (officially or otherwise) to every single country bordering South Africa. A few others too.

lemontree
21 Aug 06,, 07:48
Yes we ran up against Cubans both in Mozambique and Angola. Found some Chinese advisors in Zambia. I was there for the later (post 76) troubles. We deployed (officially or otherwise) to every single country bordering South Africa. A few others too.
Those were some of the most brutal wars, and very few of us really know anything about them. I got a taste of Africa from Wilbur Smith's fictional works, I am afraid I hav'nt much about those wars except on the Sudan imbroglio.

sappersgt
21 Aug 06,, 18:14
Those were some of the most brutal wars, and very few of us really know anything about them. I got a taste of Africa from Wilbur Smith's fictional works, I am afraid I hav'nt much about those wars except on the Sudan imbroglio.

If it werent for Wilbur Smith's novels a lot of Africa and it's history would be unknown. He does do a lot of research. One of the charactors in one of his books is a composite of two other Corporals and myself. He comped a weekend cruise for us (and my wife) out of Durban during which he interviewed us extensively. For us it was a chance to tell all of our "war stories" while taking advantage of the free food and drink. A good time. :biggrin:

lemontree
22 Aug 06,, 05:00
If it werent for Wilbur Smith's novels a lot of Africa and it's history would be unknown. He does do a lot of research. One of the charactors in one of his books is a composite of two other Corporals and myself. He comped a weekend cruise for us (and my wife) out of Durban during which he interviewed us extensively. For us it was a chance to tell all of our "war stories" while taking advantage of the free food and drink. A good time. :biggrin:
Now this is news :) . Which book are we taking about?

sappersgt
22 Aug 06,, 06:31
Now this is news :) . Which book are we taking about?n


IIRC it's called "When the Lion Sleeps". The composite character is named Sean Owen who is an amateur prize fighter and the son of a bankrupt Texas oil millionaire. I got to read the manuscript. Some of it was corny but still entertaining. :biggrin:

Larry Bonds "Vortex" is a novel about a hypothetical war in South Africa. Although a work of "fiction" it contains a reasonably accurate description of an operation conducted in Zimbabwe by 2nd SAIs Sapper company. Recommended reading. :biggrin:

lemontree
22 Aug 06,, 06:56
Thanks, since I like Wilbur Smith's books I am sure these two would be interesting.

sappersgt
22 Aug 06,, 07:14
Thanks, since I like Wilbur Smith's books I am sure these two would be interesting.

If you read Vortex I'll let you know where I'm in the book. ;)

Bluesman
27 Aug 06,, 16:34
Back on topic:



Homeland security can't get over the pump

August 27, 2006

BY MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST





There was a fascinating story in the Chicago Sun-Times the other day. As Stefano Esposito reported: "Mardin Azad Amin found himself in a tight squeeze last week when security at O'Hare Airport discovered a suspicious-looking object in his luggage.



"So, Amin, 29, handled the delicate situation this way: He told security the object was a bomb, Cook County prosecutors say."

In fact, it was a, er, penis pump. But the unfortunate Mardin Azad Amin was traveling to Turkey with his mom and was understandably a little sheepish. So, faced with the potential social embarrassment of being revealed as a pervert, he allegedly preferred to pass himself off as a terrorist. Many of us chaps would do the same in his situation, though one suspects rather fewer, when flying on vacation with our mothers, would pack a penis pump in our hand luggage. I hasten to add I've no idea whether Mrs. Amin took any maternal pride in her son's alleged claim to be a fanatical suicide bomber -- and even if she had, it would have been tempered by at least a mild irritation at discovering that she was also along for the ride. (One of the guys arrested in Toronto the other week for plotting to behead the Canadian prime minister had a wife who was so eager for him to commit martyrdom operations that she considered having it inserted as a clause in the prenup. But, hot for jihad as she was, her own contribution would have consisted merely of cheering him on from home.) Still, it's a marvelous post-9/11 adaptation of that scene in Austin Powers in which Mike Myers is collecting his personal effects and denies ownership of the penis pump. "Not my bag, baby," as he tells Elizabeth Hurley.

Young Mr. Amin now faces three years in jail for allegedly lying about his ill-fated choice of travel accessory. On the other hand, it's surely only a matter of months before some U.S. court rules that prisoners are entitled under the Geneva Convention to their own penis pumps. By contrast, Muslim men arrested in Denmark for plotting an actual terrorist attack face life imprisonment. In Denmark, life sentences are automatically commuted after 16 years.

Hmm. Three years for a penis pump, 16 years for planning to murder thousands of people.

What happened a week or so back was that a handful of would-be jihadists in London managed to get airline security changed in perpetuity for 300 million Americans, 60 million Britons and anybody who wants to visit them. And we all gave a shrug and barely noticed. I don't know if penis pumps are as yet formally proscribed items. But, if they're not, it can't be long before al-Qaida decides to plant some shoebomber-type on a trans-Atlantic flight and starts training up cadres of Pumpbombers in the Hindu Kush. And, even if the penis pump industry manages to survive, my National Review colleague David Frum calculates that an extra 10 minutes added to the passenger screening process costs the global economy more than $33 billion a year. So, as the Britons and Germans and Danes and Canadians have been doing in recent weeks, we can keep intercepting new terror plots and adding a minute here, a minute there to security procedures to cope with whatever novelties the jihad comes up with.

That's assuming the authorities are allowed to keep intercepting. The method by which Scotland Yard and MI5 uncovered the Heathrow plot -- monitoring communications between external and domestic phone numbers -- has now been ruled "unconstitutional" after a case brought by the Michigan branch of the ACLU, which went judge-shopping and happily for them found a judge who'd previously served as trustee of an organization that funds the Michigan ACLU. Quelle surprise, as the French say. Or as they would say if they weren't too busy trying to weasel out of their phony-baloney U.N. peacekeeping gig in Lebanon.

Setting aside her conflict of interest, Judge Anna Diggs Taylor delivered a legal opinion of almost laughable illiteracy that leaves the United States government in the curious position of being able to do more to intercept terrorist plots against foreign countries than against its own. That's to say, on the Heathrow bust, the United States provided some information from communications intercepts to British and Pakistani authorities. If Judge Taylor's ruling stands, if the U.S. government intercepts a call from Islamabad to London about a plot to blow up Big Ben, it can alert the Brits. But, if the U.S. government intercepts a call from Islamabad to New York about a plot to blow up the Chrysler Building, that's entirely unconstitutional and all record of it should be erased. And, given that cell phones with American area codes can be used all around the planet, all the guy in Islamabad would have to do is get one with a 202 or 212 number and he can plot jihad on every continent to his heart's content. One notes that earlier this month five Muslim Americans were arrested in Ohio and Michigan after hundreds of cell phones were found in their cars. But no doubt Taylor will soon uncover a constitutional right to multiple cell phones.

Do you remember John Kerry's approach to terrorism? As he told the New York Times: ''We have to get back to the place we were, where terrorists are not the focus of our lives, but they're a nuisance. As a former law enforcement person, I know we're never going to end prostitution. We're never going to end illegal gambling. But we're going to reduce it, organized crime, to a level where it isn't on the rise.''

The average terrorist doesn't take kindly to having the unstoppable march of Islam compared to the decadent infidels' sex industry (though, psychologically, for these guys the jihad seems to serve as the ultimate penis pump). But, that aside, a casual glance at the lavish display ads for ''escort services'' in the Boston Yellow Pages suggests that applying the Kerry Hooker Doctrine to terrorists would leave rather a lot of them in business. The evidence of recent months confirms that, among the Muslim populations of the Western world, there is a not insignificant fifth column in Britain and Europe and a somewhat smaller one in the United States. We need an effective strategy for that. Instead, between longer check-in lines for airline travelers and the worldwide roaming cell phone plan for jihadists, we're mainly punishing ourselves.

©Mark Steyn 2006




Copyright © Mark Steyn, 2006


Copyright © The Sun-Times Company
All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.


FUnny stuff, but a serious subject.

Ray
30 Aug 06,, 11:24
Poor chap.

The Arabs cannot pronounce "p". They pronounce it as "b".

So, a pump becomes a bumb.

And that is what he said, when the chap was taking it out to check and which he whispered so that the thing is not brought out in front of his mother!

Bluesman
21 Sep 06,, 03:52
Question:

Why airliners again? Why not easier targets? Especially since these were to be in-flight kills, not commandeering them and using them as guided missiles.

Is it judged that the economic hit to the airline and aero industry is more significant than walking into a bunch of malls and schools and shooting up the landscape?

-dale

I know I'm answering an old post, here, but I think the answer is, this is their equivalent of pointing to the right field bleachers and swinging for the fences. It's a 'called shot'. The thinking here is, 'We can ALWAYS beat you at this, and no matter how good your security gets, we can get it done anyway.'

If I were a radical Islamist SOB, I'd call in my own plot to the media, and then try my luck against the best the authorities could do...and all of it, every single second, would be covered live on TV, including the failed effort to stop it. I'd make it a significant date, too, when our guard is up, like September 11th, or Muhammad's birthday, or the last day of Ramadan. We're always extra vigilanrt those days, so pull it off and BLAMMO!...instant helplessness and demoralization of the enemy.

I think that's what THIS plot was: an attempt at the only place that has been 'hardened' (such as it is:rolleyes: ). If they'd gotten the job done...who uses airliners after something like THAT?

tankie
07 Sep 09,, 16:33
Hats off to the security forces for catching this piece of excretia , well done indeed , now lets see if they get released in a deal like the lockerbie bastard did :mad:

Islamic extremist Abdulla Ahmed Ali has been found guilty of conspiring to murder thousands in an unprecedented airline bomb plot.

The 28-year-old from Walthamstow was the leader of an east London al Qaida-inspired terror cell, a Woolwich Crown Court jury found.

He was convicted, with two other men, of planning to detonate home-made liquid bombs in suicide attacks on transatlantic aircraft bound for major north American cities.

Ali was responsible for the most complex and daring British-based terrorist conspiracy in modern times. With thousands killed in the air and on the ground, the explosions would have exceeded the carnage of the September 11 attacks. Counter terrorist police, the security services and prosecutors spent more than £35 million foiling the plot and bringing Ali to justice.

Assad Sarwar 29, of High Wycombe, and Tanvir Hussain, 28, of Leyton, were also found guilty of involvement in the airline bomb plot. All will be sentenced on Monday.

The arrest of the gang in August 2006 sparked tight restrictions on carrying liquids on to aircraft which led to travel chaos.

The guilty verdict will come as an enormous relief for Government ministers who endured heavy criticism for introducing the draconian luggage restrictions. It will also be seen as a vindication of the decision to retry Ali after he was found guilty of conspiracy to cause explosions last September. The previous jury failed to reach verdicts on the airline plot.

British-born Ali was inspired by the July 7 bombers and Osama bin Laden and considered taking his baby son on his suicide mission. He planned to smuggle home-made bombs disguised as soft drinks on to passenger jets run by United Airlines, American Airlines and Air Canada. The hydrogen peroxide devices would have been assembled and detonated in mid-air by a team of suicide bombers.

Ali singled out seven flights to San Francisco, Toronto, Montreal, Washington, New York and Chicago that departed within two-and-a-half hours of each other.

Authorities on both sides of the Atlantic would have been left powerless to stop the destruction once the first bomb exploded

Parihaka
08 Sep 09,, 08:26
Airline bomb plot: investigation 'one of biggest since WW2' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/6152185/Airline-bomb-plot-investigation-one-of-biggest-since-WW2.html)

Abdulla Ahmed Ali, Tanvir Hussain and Assad Sarwar, the Islamic terrorists who plotted to cause death “on an unprecedented scale”, in the words of the former home secretary John Reid, were finally brought to justice after one of the most complex and costliest criminal investigations since the Second World War.


By Duncan Gardham, Security Correspondent
Published: 7:00AM BST 08 Sep 2009


The police and MI5 had carried out more than a year of surveillance work before the gang was rounded up, and it took a further three years, and two trials, to convict those who planned to blow up transatlantic aircraft using liquid-based bombs. In total, the investigation and trials are estimated to have cost £100million.

The first hint that a suicide-bombing “spectacular” had been thwarted came on August 10, 2006, at the very height of the holiday season, when airports around the world were thrown into chaos as the authorities suddenly imposed a ban on liquids being taken on board aircraft.

John Reid made an emergency statement the same day to explain that the security services had swooped overnight on a suspected British-based al-Qaeda cell which had aimed to smuggle bombs disguised as soft drinks onto aircraft.

As a result, the world’s airports imposed restrictions on liquids being taken onto aircraft which continue to affect every passenger.

By the time the gang was rounded up, MI5 agents had become convinced that the plotters were in the final stages of planning a co-ordinated wave of attacks on aircraft which could have killed up to 5,000 passengers and as many again on the ground, making it three times more deadly than the 9/11 attacks on the US in 2001.

During Operation Overt, as the investigation was codenamed, the security services had listened to bugged conversations in which the suspects discussed how to smuggle bomb components on board aircraft, taking “babies” with them to allay suspicion and recruiting 19 bombers to emulate the 9/11 “martyrs”.

They were also overheard making suicide videos in which they promised death would “rain” from the skies and used coded emails to organize the purchase of bomb ingredients, in which one key component, hydrogen peroxide, was referred to as “aftershave”.

The origins of the plot go back to December 2004 when Abu Ubaida al-Masri, an Egyptian bomb-maker missing one finger, was in the mountains of Pakistan leading master classes on how to build hydrogen peroxide bombs using a technique first developed in Palestinian refugee camps.

Among his pupils were Mohammed Sidique Khan, who became the leader of the 7/7 attack on London’s transport system in July 2005, which killed 52 people, and Muktar Ibrahim, who intended to follow him with what turned out to be a failed attempt two weeks later.

No one knows for sure if the two bombers met each other but they were certainly in Pakistan at the same time, along with a man leading a third cell that was to target transatlantic airliners - Abdulla Ahmed Ali.

Ali, 28, was born in east London, into a religious family of eight brothers and sisters, with close connections to Pakistan. Even before graduating in engineering at City University in London, he was surrounded by the extremists of al-Muhajiroun, led by the preacher Omar Bakri Mohammed, and the fundamentalists of a world-wide missionary group, Tablighi Jamaat, both of which operated from his local mosque in Queen’s Road, Walthamstow.

His only jobs were working part-time at Halfords and Wickes and most of his energies went into a charity called the Islamic Medical Association, based in Hackney, which he used as cover to travel to Afghanistan, where he drove an ambulance in refugee camps.

He also introduced several of his schoolfriends to the charity, including Tanvir Hussain, another of the men convicted yesterday. Others he met through the charity included Assad Sarwar and Umar Islam, who also went on to become co-conspirators.

Investigators believe that during his time in Afghanistan and later Pakistan, Ali was put in touch with bomb-maker al-Masri by Rashid Rauf, an al-Qaeda fixer who had fled his native Birmingham after being sought by police in connection with the murder of his uncle in the West Midlands.

MI5 was already aware of the terrorist leaders Sidique Khan and Ibrahim, and Ali was part of the same “facilitation network” in east London as Ibrahim, providing money, equipment and men to al-Qaeda in Pakistan.

“He was on a list of the top ten or so cells we were watching but nowhere near the top,” a security source said.

In June 2006, when Ali returned from another trip to Pakistan, MI5 officers were waiting to secretly open his baggage in a back room at Heathrow Airport.

They found a collection of batteries and a large bag of the soft drink powder Tang - potentially innocuous items, but carried in large enough quantities to make them suspicious. After letting Sidique Khan and Ibrahim slip through the net the previous year they were not about to make the same mistake again.

MI5 let the unsuspecting Ali pick up his bags and go on his way, but began tapping his phone calls and emails, discovering he was in contact with someone in Pakistan and apparently talking in code, suggesting a plot was underway.

On July 5 2006, MI5 launched the largest surveillance operation they had ever run, diverting all their available resources to Operation Overt.

Ali, codenamed “Lion Roar” by agents, was aware he might be watched and held his meetings in open spaces, often playing tennis in Lloyd Park in Walthamstow, where agents could not get close enough to hear what was being said.

But the intercepted emails were making the officers increasingly worried that a major plot was well under way.

In a message sent on July 4, 2006, Ali said: “I got all my bits and bobs, I’m just waiting for lights. They should be here in a couple of days.” The same message made reference to a “rehearsal” at a “rapping contest”, suggesting the gang was ready for a trial run.

Rauf sent a reply from Pakistan on July 13 saying: “Your friend can go to his rapping contest anywhere. Make sure he goes on the bus service that’s most popular over there.”

Sarwar, who was also in contact with Pakistan, emailed on July 19, saying: “I’ve found 15 suppliers who can get me nice Calvin Klein designer aftershave.” The next day Sarwar told Rauf: “I’ve been in contact with (Ali). Said that he had got a wedding film that he needs to give me.”

MI5’s breakthrough came on July 26, when Ali was seen visiting an empty flat recently bought by his brother-in-law in Forest Road, Walthamstow. MI5 broke in and planted listening devices and cameras inside the flat.

Just over a week later on August 3 a surveillance camera in the flat recorded Ali and his friend, Tanvir Hussain, drilling a hole in the bottom of a soft drinks bottle. The jury at Woolwich Crown Court would later hear that this was to enable the gang to empty the bottle and replace its contents with liquid explosives without breaking the seal on the cap, making it look as if it had not been tampered with.

Over the buzz of the drill they could be heard talking about batteries, Tang, and “HP” or hydrogen peroxide, all part of the make-up of their homemade bombs.

By 7pm the conversation had turned to American cities - New York, Miami, Philadelphia, Washington DC, Dallas, Chicago, and Los Angeles.

“I wanted to find out from the travel agent…the ten most popular places what British people holiday,” said one.

Then came the conversation that had everyone worried: “We got six people, innit. Me, Omar B, Ibo, Arrow and Waheed,” said Ali. “There's another three units, there's another three dudes.”

“There's another three more, huh?” Hussain asked. “Seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen - that's 15….18. Phew! Think of it, yeah, one man more...”

The figure, 19, would bring them to the number of hijackers involved in the September 11 attacks.

On August 3 Ali wrote in an email: “By the way, I’ve set up my mobile shop now. Now I only need to sort out an opening time.” The following day he sent an email to Rauf saying: “I’ve done my prep. All I have to do is sort out opening timetable and bookings. That should take a couple of days.”

On August 6 the stakes were raised still higher as Ali’s MI5 “shadow” followed him into an internet café in Walthamstow and saw him looking up flight times.

He copied details of seven flights which took off within two and a half hours of each other, meaning all of the flights would have been in the air at the same time and the authorities would have been powerless to save any of them once the first had been blown up.

Three days later when Umar Islam visited the flat in Forest Road he asked Ali: “What’s the time frame anyway?”

“A couple of weeks” Ali said as he coached his co-conspirator through the making of a suicide video and the two men discussed taking their children with them.

"Martyrdom operations upon martyrdom operations will keep on raining on these Kuffar," Islam was heard saying as they made the video.

Throughout the investigation, the White House had been kept abreast of developments, and after President George W Bush was informed of the suspects’ discussions of a two-week “timeframe” he decided he was not prepared to wait any longer, and ordered the arrest of Rauf in Pakistan.

At Scotland Yard, where officers felt they still needed more evidence, the move caused panic because the suspects were in daily contact with Rauf and his disappearance could cause them to go to ground or bring forward their attacks.

Peter Clarke, head of the Counter-Terrorism Command, spoke to John Reid and made him a bet: “I’ll have them all in custody by the morning.”

That evening Ali met Sarwar in a car park beside Waltham Forest Town Hall, where he handed over several suicide videos. The police immediately moved in to arrest them, and held a total of 24 suspects in a series of co-ordinated raids.

Sarwar’s home yielded important material including more alleged suicide videos hidden in the garage and computer memory sticks with alternative targets including nuclear power stations, oil and gas terminals and the Canary Wharf skyscrapers.

But what still haunts the police is the possibility that more members of the gang could still be at large. Some of the intercepted emails implied there was to be a second wave of attacks, and police sources admit they cannot rule out the possibility that other plotters remain free.

Merlin
08 Sep 09,, 10:43
I remember the resulting inconvenience to air travel, banning liquids in airline cabins. This below is from the above quote.


... The first hint that a suicide-bombing “spectacular” had been thwarted came on August 10, 2006, at the very height of the holiday season, when airports around the world were thrown into chaos as the authorities suddenly imposed a ban on liquids being taken on board aircraft.

John Reid made an emergency statement the same day to explain that the security services had swooped overnight on a suspected British-based al-Qaeda cell which had aimed to smuggle bombs disguised as soft drinks onto aircraft.

As a result, the world’s airports imposed restrictions on liquids being taken onto aircraft which continue to affect every passenger. ...

tankie
08 Sep 09,, 11:20
Pari , i started a thread about this yesterday called , home grown terrorist guilty ,in the int politics , and its what i have been saying all along , PAKISTANI HOME GROWN , not in A/G but right here and taking advantage of the UKs benefits , while plotting to murder , the main control guy in Pak is perported to have been killed by a US drone ,

GOOD

tankie
08 Sep 09,, 13:11
Pari can you merge this thread mate. ;)

Kernow
09 Sep 09,, 03:08
Poor chap.

The Arabs cannot pronounce "p". They pronounce it as "b".

So, a pump becomes a bumb.

And that is what he said, when the chap was taking it out to check and which he whispered so that the thing is not brought out in front of his mother!

Benus Bumb. :))

tankie
14 Sep 09,, 16:12
I hope life means life , die there .






The airliner bomb plotters were jailed for life for planning what judge Mr Justice Henriques said was an atrocity comparable with the September 11 attacks
Bomb gang jailed over 'wicked' plot .British-born ringleader Abdulla Ahmed Ali was told he would serve a minimum of 40 years for his role in "the most grave and wicked conspiracy ever proven within this jurisdiction".

Accomplices Assad Sarwar and Tanvir Hussain were also given life sentences. Sarwar was told he would serve a minimum of 36 years. Hussain will serve a minimum of 32 years.

The al Qaida-inspired terror cell planned to detonate home-made liquid bombs on flights bound for major North American cities. Ali, of Walthamstow, east London, was found guilty along with Sarwar and Hussain last week at Woolwich Crown Court of conspiracy to murder on a mass scale following the largest-ever counter-terrorism operation in the UK.

Mr Justice Henriques said: "The intention was to perpetrate a terrorist outrage that would stand alongside the events of September 11, 2001 in history." The judge added that the airline bomb plot had "reached an advanced stage in its development". He said the men had "sufficient chemicals for 20 home-made detonators of commercial strength".

"I'm satisfied that there is every likelihood that this plot would have succeeded but for the intervention of the police and the security service," he said.

Referring to a video of a mock explosion on board an airliner, Mr Justice Henriques said: "I could only conclude the chance of an aircraft surviving such an explosion at altitude was remote. Had this conspiracy not been interrupted, a massive loss of life would almost certainly have resulted - and if the detonation was over land, the number of victims would have been even greater still."

The judge said the emails at the centre of the retrial - which were unavailable to prosecutors in the first trial last year - "are a vital source of information as to the control, progress and scope of this conspiracy". "They establish beyond question the ultimate control of this conspiracy lay in Pakistan."

He said others in Pakistan controlled, monitored and funded the plot. Ali, Sarwar, from High Wycombe, Bucks, and Hussain, from Leyton, east London, were "high-level executives within this country", the judge added.

Mr Justice Henriques told Ali: "I have concluded you are a driven and determined extremist with boundless energy and an ambition to lead a terrorist outrage of boundless proportion. By this conspiracy you sought the attention of the world, and you now have it

antimony
14 Sep 09,, 17:58
I wish you guys would bring back the old rope:mad::(

tankie
14 Sep 09,, 18:10
I wish you guys would bring back the old rope:mad::(

oooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yes :mad:

zara
14 Sep 09,, 18:21
why is it that all these would be Terrorists and bombers are born and bred in Britian, yet the daily mail and other rags insist on blaming Immigrants?

The British police did well though, very little gets past them. I wonder how they were caught...

gunnut
14 Sep 09,, 19:16
why is it that all these would be Terrorists and bombers are born and bred in Britian, yet the daily mail and other rags insist on blaming Immigrants?

They never assimilated.

tankie
14 Sep 09,, 19:29
They never assimilated.

:mad: yup , with the perfect chance as they were spawned here :mad:

old proverb , never bite the hand that feeds you .

Knaur Amarsh
14 Sep 09,, 19:30
They never assimilated.

That begs the question why, out of the millions of immigrants who chose to live in the UK, why did only these handful become terrorists? Do you see some reason for it, like a shared ideology perhaps?

gunnut
14 Sep 09,, 19:44
That begs the question why, out of the millions of immigrants who chose to live in the UK, why did only these handful become terrorists? Do you see some reason for it, like a shared ideology perhaps?

Maybe they were the first ones to act upon their belief. Others who have not assimilated might be content to lay low and enjoy the material benefits.

I was listening to Dodger baseball 2 days ago when Vin Scully (it was truly a blessing to listen to him) was annoucing the 1st 3 innings on radio. He said one of the opposing players named Miller, was a 1/4 Cherokee, and his great-grand father had a Cherokee last name. The family decided they should be more "American" so they adopted Miller as their last name. It was quite common for immigrants back in the days to change their last names to be more American. The irony here was Cherokee was as "American" as anyone could get. But they wanted to fit in and be more mainstream.

This spirit to adopt the culture of the land as your own is lost among recent immigrants. They come here (at least in the US and probably western Europe) and demand the locals cater to their needs. The assimilation process is dragged out from years to decades, possibly generations, if ever. This is unhealthy for the nation.

Shamus
14 Sep 09,, 20:03
Maybe they were the first ones to act upon their belief. Others who have not assimilated might be content to lay low and enjoy the material benefits.

I was listening to Dodger baseball 2 days ago when Vin Scully (it was truly a blessing to listen to him) was annoucing the 1st 3 innings on radio. He said one of the opposing players named Miller, was a 1/4 Cherokee, and his great-grand father had a Cherokee last name. The family decided they should be more "American" so they adopted Miller as their last name. It was quite common for immigrants back in the days to change their last names to be more American. The irony here was Cherokee was as "American" as anyone could get. But they wanted to fit in and be more mainstream.

This spirit to adopt the culture of the land as your own is lost among recent immigrants. They come here (at least in the US and probably western Europe) and demand the locals cater to their needs. The assimilation process is dragged out from years to decades, possibly generations, if ever. This is unhealthy for the nation.I would have to agree here GN.My maternal grandfather came over with his parents at the age of two from Sweden.As a youngster I asked him to teach me some Swedish words,he replied that he never learned to speak Swedish as his parents wanted him to learn English as this was now his country:).

antimony
14 Sep 09,, 20:06
Maybe they were the first ones to act upon their belief. Others who have not assimilated might be content to lay low and enjoy the material benefits.

I was listening to Dodger baseball 2 days ago when Vin Scully (it was truly a blessing to listen to him) was annoucing the 1st 3 innings on radio. He said one of the opposing players named Miller, was a 1/4 Cherokee, and his great-grand father had a Cherokee last name. The family decided they should be more "American" so they adopted Miller as their last name. It was quite common for immigrants back in the days to change their last names to be more American. The irony here was Cherokee was as "American" as anyone could get. But they wanted to fit in and be more mainstream.

This spirit to adopt the culture of the land as your own is lost among recent immigrants. They come here (at least in the US and probably western Europe) and demand the locals cater to their needs. The assimilation process is dragged out from years to decades, possibly generations, if ever. This is unhealthy for the nation.

I don't buy this assimilation stuff. All immigrants and their offsrping need is to be loyal to their adopted land and the laws of that same land. There are tonnes of immgrants who have kept their own cultures and have been immensely productive to their adopted lands.

Baron Karen Bilimoria, Lord Swaraj Paul, Curry King gulam Noon or countless others did not need to change their names or make any special efforts at "assimilation". All they did was be productive to their adopted countries.

Same goes for Fareed Zakaria or Asif Mandvi or M. Night Shyamalan.

In April this year there was an event organised in Seattle, and the chief guest was former Indian President Dr. APJ Kalam. during the Q&A session towards the end he was asked how the Indian diaspora can help their home country. He answered, quite simply, "If you cannot think of any other way, just do the best you can for your adopted country, that's all"

Immensely powerful and yet simple.

Just becuase a few idiots exist with a distorted view of culture, doesn't mean all immigrants need to be "assimilated" to be prodcutive or useful to their adopted land.

You mentioned that recent immigrants demand that locals cater to their needs. But sticking to your own culture does not necessarily mean that, unless ones wants to be a deliberate troublemaker.

As for me, I adamantly resist any efforts at trying to get me to say "Skejul" instead of "Schedule":tongue:

Shamus
14 Sep 09,, 20:11
As for me, I adamantly resist any efforts at trying to get me to say "Skejul" instead of "Schedule":tongue:So how do you say "schematic"?:biggrin:

gunnut
14 Sep 09,, 20:25
I would have to agree here GN.My maternal grandfather came over with his parents at the age of two from Sweden.As a youngster I asked him to teach me some Swedish words,he replied that he never learned to speak Swedish as his parents wanted him to learn English as this was now his country:).

A local radio talk show host (Al Rantel), just retired, spoke of his experience when he was young. His family came from Italy, dirt poor, immigrants, came here with nothing but literally the clothes on their backs. He recalled a conversation similar to yours with his grandma when he was little. He was born here.

He asked his grandma to teach him Italian. His grandma said in her broken English that he should learn English and be American. Italy was in the past. His future is here, in America.

gunnut
14 Sep 09,, 20:29
I don't buy this assimilation stuff. All immigrants and their offsrping need is to be loyal to their adopted land and the laws of that same land. There are tonnes of immgrants who have kept their own cultures and have been immensely productive to their adopted lands.

Baron Karen Bilimoria, Lord Swaraj Paul, Curry King gulam Noon or countless others did not need to change their names or make any special efforts at "assimilation". All they did was be productive to their adopted countries.

Same goes for Fareed Zakaria or Asif Mandvi or M. Night Shyamalan.

In April this year there was an event organised in Seattle, and the chief guest was former Indian President Dr. APJ Kalam. during the Q&A session towards the end he was asked how the Indian diaspora can help their home country. He answered, quite simply, "If you cannot think of any other way, just do the best you can for your adopted country, that's all"

Immensely powerful and yet simple.

Just becuase a few idiots exist with a distorted view of culture, doesn't mean all immigrants need to be "assimilated" to be prodcutive or useful to their adopted land.

You mentioned that recent immigrants demand that locals cater to their needs. But sticking to your own culture does not necessarily mean that, unless ones wants to be a deliberate troublemaker.

As for me, I adamantly resist any efforts at trying to get me to say "Skejul" instead of "Schedule":tongue:

Of course I'm not saying we should eradicate our heritage at all cost. I'm merely stating the possible cause of such home grown terrorists in the west. The spirit to assimilate isn't as strong these days. There are those like me who have no problem adopting our new home. But there are those who desperately cling on to the past and wish to spread it here.

People used to come here because they wanted to be "American."

Now people come here to be "______-American."

I never call myself Asian American or Chinese American unless someone asks. I don't brag about it. I don't use it as a crutch. I don't identify myself by it.

astralis
14 Sep 09,, 20:45
gunnut,


Maybe they were the first ones to act upon their belief. Others who have not assimilated might be content to lay low and enjoy the material benefits.

in the case of the UK the "they did not assimilate" argument is not quite correct. muslim extremists there tend to be of the second generation (not the first), facing pervasive problems of unemployment, racism, and isolation-- ie they understand and live the culture but are not accepted as full Brits.

in other cases, extremism is the way to show off teenage rebellion against their largely assimilationist parents.

antimony
14 Sep 09,, 21:07
So how do you say "schematic"?:biggrin:

Cheap shot, Skamus, and you know it:biggrin:.

By the way, the only reason I spell colour as color is because the dham Office keeps messing up and tells me I have got my spelling wrong:mad:

gunnut
14 Sep 09,, 21:36
Cheap shot, Skamus, and you know it:biggrin:.

By the way, the only reason I spell colour as color is because the dham Office keeps messing up and tells me I have got my spelling wrong:mad:

It doesn't take that much labour to do that...:biggrin:

Do you write cheques when you buy medicine at the chemist shoppe?

gunnut
14 Sep 09,, 21:39
gunnut,

in the case of the UK the "they did not assimilate" argument is not quite correct. muslim extremists there tend to be of the second generation (not the first), facing pervasive problems of unemployment, racism, and isolation-- ie they understand and live the culture but are not accepted as full Brits.

in other cases, extremism is the way to show off teenage rebellion against their largely assimilationist parents.

I didn't say it's the only explanation. It's a possible explanation.

How about those imported NHS "doctors" who drove a car on fire into, or tried to, drive a car on fire into an airport terminal?

Kernow
14 Sep 09,, 21:43
Cheap shot, Skamus, and you know it:biggrin:.

By the way, the only reason I spell colour as color is because the dham Office keeps messing up and tells me I have got my spelling wrong:mad:

Change the language to 'English' (UK), not 'English' (US).;)

Kernow
14 Sep 09,, 21:44
They each got 40 years by the way.

Kernow
14 Sep 09,, 22:26
To be more accurate. Well done the Police and Security Forces.


Airline plot trio get life terms
Three men who plotted to blow up liquid bombs on flights from the UK to North America have been jailed for life, with minimum terms of up to 40 years.

Ringleader Abdulla Ahmed Ali, 28, was jailed for at least 40 years.

Plot "quartermaster" Assad Sarwar, 29, must serve at least 36 years, while Tanvir Hussain, 28, was jailed for at least 32 years at Woolwich Crown Court.

Their aim was a terrorist outrage to "stand alongside" the 9/11 attacks on the US in history, the judge said.

Mr Justice Henriques called the plot "the most grave and wicked conspiracy ever proven within this jurisdiction".

Home Secretary Alan Johnson said the sentences "reflected the severity of this horrendous plot to kill and maim thousands of people".


"I'm very pleased the jury gave a sentence that was proportionate to this potential crime," he said.

"Our police and our national security service is a national asset, they've proven that again today."

The trial heard that at the time of his arrest, Ahmed Ali, of Walthamstow, east London, had identified seven US and Canada-bound flights that were to be attacked within a two-and-a-half-hour period.

"I'm satisfied that there is every likelihood that this plot would have succeeded but for the intervention of the police and the security service," he said.

"Had this conspiracy not been interrupted, a massive loss of life would almost certainly have resulted - and if the detonation was over land, the number of victims would have been even greater still."


ANALYSIS
Dominic Casciani, BBC home affairs reporter
Judges follow Court of Appeal sentencing guidelines for terrorism offences. But in the case of the three airline bomb plotters, Mr Justice Henriques said the "quite exceptional" nature of their "grave and wicked" plan meant he would jail them for longer than other men found guilty of conspiracy.

Abdulla Ahmed Ali's minimum term of 40 years is the same term as that now being served by the men convicted of the failed London suicide attacks of 21 July 2005. They had taken the final step in their plot, but the judge said Ali's plan was, in fact, more likely to have succeeded.

Ahmed Ali had sparred with the prosecution when he gave evidence - and during the judge's sentencing, he angrily shook his head several times. He wanted to die in a "blessed operation" comparable to 9/11 - but he may eventually die an old man, in a prison cell.

The judge said that the plot had "reached an advanced stage in its development", with the men in possession of enough chemicals to produce 20 detonators.

The flights due to be targeted were from London's Heathrow airport to San Francisco, Washington, New York, Chicago, Toronto and Montreal.

Sarwar had obtained bomb ingredients which he kept at his home and in woods in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire.

A flat in the Walthamstow area of north-east London became the men's bomb factory, where they mixed chemicals that they planned to take onto planes in ordinary sports drinks bottles stored within hand luggage.

The plot prompted the biggest terror investigation ever mounted in the UK.

No emotion

The convicted men displayed no emotion at their sentences, although Ahmed Ali shook his head and appeared angry and frustrated at earlier sentencing remarks from the judge.

"With this plot you sought the attention of the world and now you have it," Mr Justice Henriques told him.

"You have embraced Islamic extremism and it is that burning extremism that has motivated you throughout this conspiracy and is likely to drive you again."

E-mails submitted as evidence in the trial had shown that "the ultimate control of this conspiracy lay in Pakistan", the judge said.

Ahmed Ali, Sarwar and Hussain, from Leyton, east London, had been "high-level executives within this country".

'Act of revenge'

The men's defence had been that they were planning a political stunt, including small explosions intended only to frighten people at airports.

These political demonstrations, they said, would be backed up by a documentary aimed at changing opinion on Western foreign policy.

But Mr Justice Henriques dismissed that claim, saying their intention had been "an act of revenge inspired by extremist Islamic thinking" toward the "governments of several allied forces in Iraq and Afghanistan".

Ahmed Ali, Sarwar and Hussain, were found guilty of conspiracy to murder using explosives on aircraft.

They were also convicted of a more general conspiracy to murder offence.

A fourth man, Umar Islam, 31, convicted of the more general conspiracy to murder charge, was also given a life sentence and will serve a minimum of 22 years in prison.

The men's arrests in August 2006 caused chaos to the global aviation industry and prompted continuing restrictions to the amount of liquids passengers can take on to aircraft.

This had meant "massive expenditure" and "huge inconvenience for the travelling public" as a direct result of the plot, the judge said.

"Tons of liquids are confiscated from the public on a daily basis at airports," he said.

The Director of Public Prosecutions, Keir Starmer, is seeking a retrial of three other men for conspiracy to murder, after the jury failed to reach a verdict on this charge against them.

A hearing on 5 October will decide whether Ibrahim Savant, 28, Arafat Khan, 28, and Waheed Zaman, 25, will face another trial.

Story from BBC NEWS:
BBC NEWS | UK | Airline plot trio get life terms (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/8254156.stm)

Parihaka
15 Sep 09,, 04:11
Leader of airline bomb plot told he will spend 40 years in jail (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/sep/14/airline-bomb-plot-trial-judgement)



The British leader of the plot to bomb seven transatlantic planes is facing the prospect of dying in jail after a judge said today he was likely to remain a dangerous and motivated terrorist for the rest of his life.

Abdulla Ahmed Ali was one of three men sentenced to life imprisonment after being convicted last week of planning to lead a squad of suicide bombers in smuggling liquid explosives aboard planes heading from London to North America. The al-Qaida plot could have killed 1,500 people. Passing sentence, Mr Justice Henriques said the terrorists were involved in "the most grave and wicked conspiracy ever proven within this jurisdiction. The intention was to perpetrate a terrorist outrage that would stand alongside the events of September 11 2001 in history."

He told Ali, 28, the ringleader and a former mobile phone salesman: "You have embraced Islamic extremism and it is that burning extremism that motivated you throughout this conspiracy and is likely to motivate you again. You are likely to remain a serious danger to the public for an indeterminate time."

Ali, of Walthamstow, east London, was sentenced to life and told he must serve 40 years before he could be considered for parole. It is the joint highest sentence handed down in a British terrorism case.

The three men, and a fourth member of the cell convicted of conspiracy to murder, were given life with minimum terms of between 22 and 40 years in prison before they can be considered for release.

Assad Sarwar, 29, from High Wycombe, will serve a minimum of 36 years. The judge called him a "vital and leading member" of the plot, "trained in bomb making in Pakistan". He bought litres of chemicals to make explosives and in one day made 83 phone calls seeking hydrogen peroxide. "You were the trained chemist and quartermaster and you were in direct communication with Pakistan," the judge said.

Tanvir Hussein, 28, of Leyton, east London, was described by the judge as Ali's "right-hand man", modifying the batteries, bottles and bulbs that were to be used to make the bombs to be smuggled past airport security. He was told he would serve 32 years without parole, with the judge accepting he was not a religious fanatic but perhaps had been blinded by his "long-term loyalty to Ali".

The judge made it clear the evidence pointed to an attack within days. The cell was arrested on 9-10 August 2006. An email sent by Ali to his controllers in Pakistan on 6 August showed the terrorists were close to staging the attack.

The cell's fourth member, Umar Islam, 31, of Plaistow, east London, convicted of conspiracy to murder, was told he would serve a minimum of 22 years. The former bus inspector was described by the judge as a "foot soldier" who was unaware the target was blowing aircraft out of the sky.

Nadim Radford QC, representing Ali, said he was a victim of political turmoil. Radford said of the defendants: "They were caught in a political turmoil of their own making, where they misjudged what they should do. He was very greatly affected by what he felt was the harm being done to innocent people from his similar background."

Radford said the airlines plot was at an early stage when police broke it up.

Abdulla Ahmed Ali

The 28-year-old ringleader of the plot had dreamed about giving his life to jihad since he was a teenager, growing up as one of eight children in east London. The son of Pakistani immigrants, Ali had studied computer systems engineering while at university. It was while he was studying that he became actively involved in politics, joining demonstrations and handing out leaflets. After graduation he began volunteering with an Islamic charity based in east London. The court heard his religious zeal had developed when he saw images of "concentration camps" in Bosnia when he was 15 or 16 and became "aware they were Muslims".

Assad Sarwar

Former postman Sarwar, 29 was said by the prosecution to be the quartermaster of the plot, purchasing and storing bomb-making materials. He met Ali while doing charity work in Pakistan; they visited refugee camps housing Afghans who had fled the US invasion. Later, Sarwar returned to Pakistan to help survivors of the Kashmir earthquake. A computer memory stick found at Sarwar's home contained information on improvised bombs, attacking aircraft, details of the nuclear catastrophe at Chernobyl and information on British nuclear power stations, as well as flight lists he dismissed in court as "holiday destinations". He never intended to die in the plot.

Tanvir Hussain

Hussain, 28, from Leyton, east London, only became a devout Muslim in 2005 after entering into an arranged marriage. Prior to this reinvention, Hussain had spent several years at college experimenting with drink, drugs and girls and then worked in a sexual health clinic. He spent hours with Ali at the Forest Road bomb factory adapting and experimenting with soft drink bottles and was followed by surveillance teams as he went shopping for essential items for the plot, buying among other items surgical needles and syringes. It was this evidence that forced him, like Ali and Sarwar, to admit to conspiring to cause explosions.

zara
15 Sep 09,, 10:56
That begs the question why, out of the millions of immigrants who chose to live in the UK, why did only these handful become terrorists? Do you see some reason for it, like a shared ideology perhaps?

They are not immigants!
They may be the children or grandchildren of immigrants, but I guess those that arrive in Britisn realise how good they have it in their new country.

I think the next generations have never seen the hardships that their parents endured, so maybe dont realise how well they have it in Britian.

tankie
15 Sep 09,, 11:30
Pari , there is another thread about this as well in int politics called home grown t/ist guilty , can you merge them perleeease ;)