PDA

View Full Version : China to Canada: Dalai Lama award could hurt ties



troung
28 Jul 06,, 03:17
China to Canada: Dalai Lama award could hurt ties


Quote:
OTTAWA, Canada (Reuters) -- China said on Wednesday that Canada's decision to bestow honorary citizenship on the Dalai Lama could hurt commercial relations between the two countries, which have been steadily growing stronger.
The Tibetan leader-in-exile, who fled his homeland in 1959 after a failed uprising against Chinese rule, is considered by Beijing to be a separatist.
Canada's Parliament unanimously approved the award of an honorary citizenship last month, which will be bestowed on the Dalai Lama when he visits Vancouver in early September.
The honor will mark the third time Canada has bestowed honorary citizenship. The others are former South African President Nelson Mandela and Swedish businessman Raoul Wallenberg, who saved the lives of thousands of Jews in World War II.
Zhang Weidong, political counselor at the Chinese embassy in Ottawa, Canada, said his officials had already complained to the Foreign Ministry about the award.
"The Dalai Lama is a separatist so I don't think he should be honored with that. That will harm the Canadian image and harm the relationship between China and Canada. We hope these things will not happen in the future," he told a news conference.
More than a million people of Chinese descent live in Canada and trade between the two nations is increasing rapidly.
Among the firms doing business in China is Bombardier Inc., which built most of the passenger cars for a new high-altitude railway to Tibet.
"China has a big market and we hope we can cooperate with all the countries in the world. But certainly, if some troubles always appear or emerge within the bilateral relationship, then the relationship in other areas certainly will be hurt," said Zhang, who spoke in English.
Asked if this represented a threat to Canadian firms, he replied with a smile: "I don't think it's a threat. I'm just trying to make things clearer. It is a clear fact and very easy to be seen."
Canada's previous Liberal government was enthusiastic about boosting ties with China and sent several high-level trade missions headed by prime ministers.
But the new Conservative government, which took power in February, is cooler toward Beijing and has already complained about Chinese industrial espionage in Canada.
Last month Prime Minister Stephen Harper told his Japanese counterpart that China was a challenge the two countries should work together to tackle, Japanese officials said.
When in opposition, the Conservatives also strongly backed the island of Taiwan, which China claims as sovereign territory.
A spokeswoman for the Foreign Ministry said Ottawa was "committed to building a strong and comprehensive relationship with China" and did not recognize Tibet's government-in-exile.
An official Chinese commentary on Wednesday accused the Dalai Lama -- who has proposed a "middle way" policy, seeking autonomy but not independence for Tibet -- of collaborating with the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency.
Zhang also dismissed a report by two prominent Canadians who said earlier this month that China has been killing Falun Gong dissidents so it can use their organs.
"Based on rumors and false allegations, the report is biased and groundless," he said, adding that the authors had close ties with Falun Gong.
Copyright 2006 Reuters. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

lemontree
28 Jul 06,, 04:51
China to Canada: Dalai Lama award could hurt ties

Its rather funny of China to preach. I wonder if they ever thought if proliferation of nuke tech to rogue nations did'nt hurt ties with other nations?... :rolleyes:

Ray
28 Jul 06,, 04:57
Nice of China to ensure their homilies don't get rusty! ;)

ZFBoxcar
28 Jul 06,, 05:07
"The Dalai Lama is a separatist so I don't think he should be honored with that. That will harm the Canadian image and harm the relationship between China and Canada. We hope these things will not happen in the future," he told a news conference.

We let our separatists form political parties and hold referendums...for a little while the Bloc Quebecois was the leader of the Official Opposition in Parliament. And we aren't trying to destroy Quebec's culture or destroy them demographically. If the PRC was running Canada they would have probably have sent all the Quebecois to re-education camps and have made the population 99% Anglo/Han Chinese. They have no business telling us how to treat separatists of any type.

Canmoore
29 Jul 06,, 21:22
We let our separatists form political parties and hold referendums...for a little while the Bloc Quebecois was the leader of the Official Opposition in Parliament. And we aren't trying to destroy Quebec's culture or destroy them demographically. If the PRC was running Canada they would have probably have sent all the Quebecois to re-education camps and have made the population 99% Anglo/Han Chinese. They have no business telling us how to treat separatists of any type.

well said

China needs Canada's natural resources, so wether they like it or not, they will have to be friendly towards us. Me thinks this is nothing more than a game of words.

dabrownguy
29 Jul 06,, 21:36
WOW. The Llama is still causing such a political uproar. lol.

Canmoore
29 Jul 06,, 22:52
WOW. The Llama is still causing such a political uproar. lol.

I was watching Larry King interview the Dali Llama on CNN once, and he cut off the dali mid-sentance....i was like "woa"

it just seemed weird, but i guess that Larry can do that to anyone lol

tphuang
30 Jul 06,, 05:46
well said

China needs Canada's natural resources, so wether they like it or not, they will have to be friendly towards us. Me thinks this is nothing more than a game of words.
yeah, but China isn't going to get any of Canada's natural resources. We know all of our natural resources are going to the Americans.



Last month Prime Minister Stephen Harper told his Japanese counterpart that China was a challenge the two countries should work together to tackle, Japanese officials said.
When in opposition, the Conservatives also strongly backed the island of Taiwan, which China claims as sovereign territory.

Another reminder for me to not vote for the conservatives.

ZFBoxcar
30 Jul 06,, 06:01
What do you have against Taiwan? I think economic integration has been working great between them, but nevertheless Taiwan should be under no obligation to come under the CCP's rule.

Confed999
30 Jul 06,, 15:03
but nevertheless Taiwan should be under no obligation to come under the CCP's rule.
Not now, not ever.

tphuang
30 Jul 06,, 18:39
What do you have against Taiwan? I think economic integration has been working great between them, but nevertheless Taiwan should be under no obligation to come under the CCP's rule.
the de facto situation basically keeps everyone satisfied right now. Why would you want to disrupt that? Actually, I'm more upset if Harper actually told Japanese that China is a problem that they should tackle together. Considering that China is our number two trading partner and the large Chinese Canadian population that is looking to do business with China. It's definitely not something that I agree with.

Canmoore
30 Jul 06,, 18:55
yeah, but China isn't going to get any of Canada's natural resources. We know all of our natural resources are going to the Americans.

oh please. there are lots to go around!



Another reminder for me to not vote for the conservatives.

Oh god, please do not tell me you vote for the Libranos? Or even worse the NDP!?!

Confed999
30 Jul 06,, 19:13
Actually, I'm more upset if Harper actually told Japanese that China is a problem that they should tackle together.
China isn't a problem?

tphuang
30 Jul 06,, 21:04
oh please. there are lots to go around!

Oh god, please do not tell me you vote for the Libranos? Or even worse the NDP!?!
actually, I prefer the old conservatives and then they merged with the "Reforms". What a disappointment. The new conservatives are far too right for my liking. So basically, I was stuck voting for the Liberals in the last 2 elections.



China isn't a problem?

depends on who you ask, right? Some people think China is a problem and some people don't. Views toward China in Canada is far more favourable than in America imo.

Confed999
30 Jul 06,, 21:27
depends on who you ask, right?
I suppose people who are ok with tyranny think they're alright...

Zhang Fei
31 Jul 06,, 01:39
Views toward China in Canada is far more favourable than in America imo.That's because 10% of the Canadian population is Chinese, as compared to perhaps 1% in the US. That does tend to sway the polls just a little. Many Chinese want to recreate in their new homes exactly the conditions they left in China.

Canmoore
31 Jul 06,, 01:58
actually, I prefer the old conservatives and then they merged with the "Reforms". What a disappointment. The new conservatives are far too right for my liking. So basically, I was stuck voting for the Liberals in the last 2 elections.

HA! far to right??

wow...the current Conservatives are moving ever closer to the Center of things, in order to sway Libral voters... far to right for your liking? you must be a librano

Canmoore
31 Jul 06,, 02:07
That's because 10% of the Canadian population is Chinese, as compared to perhaps 1% in the US. That does tend to sway the polls just a little. Many Chinese want to recreate in their new homes exactly the conditions they left in China.

Come on Zhang Fei, do not come on here and start puking up make-believe statistics, if you want to be taken seriously.

Please show me where you got your information, because the information i have tells me that 3.7% of Canadians are of Chinese decent. While 4.2% of Americans are of asian decent.

Zhang Fei
31 Jul 06,, 02:09
HA! far to right?? wow...the current Conservatives are moving ever closer to the Center of things, in order to sway Libral voters... far to right for your liking? you must be a libranoActually, tphuang's just a Chinese Communist. And I don't mean the old model communist - I mean the new breed of communist that eschews economic communism, while wholeheartedly backing the old-fashioned political kind where power emerges out of the barrel of a gun. I threw "Chinese" in there because he's an old-fashioned Chinese nationalist. Remember the German American Bund and its deep emotional attachment to Nazi Germany? The average North American Chinese is pretty much like that with respect to Communist China. There are exceptions - including the Colonel - but they are exceptions, not the rule.

Tronic
31 Jul 06,, 02:14
lol.. even I was thrown back when I read 10% of Canadian population as Chinese...

neverthless, Japan-Taiwan-America-Canada will obviously have closer relations and almost the same ideology when it comes to dealing with China... they have one very important thing in common... Democracy and Civil Rights... something which China lacks heavily in...

Zhang Fei
31 Jul 06,, 02:18
Come on Zhang Fei, do not come on here and start puking up make-believe statistics, if you want to be taken seriously. Please show me where you got your information, because the information i have tells me that 3.7% of Canadians are of Chinese decent. While 4.2% of Americans are of asian decent.My Canadian number is apparently wrong. But my US number is right. That is to say, Canada has 3.7 times more Chinese, relative to population size, than the US. The "Asian" stuff is a little silly. Caucasians may consider themselves white. Asians don't think of themselves as generic yellows.

tphuang
31 Jul 06,, 07:32
I suppose people who are ok with tyranny think they're alright...
That's low.

It seems to me that since Americans are caught up in this entire "China Threat" theory, they inheritantly believes that every other country also believes it. Maybe we should go back to that survey from last year where China was found to be more popular than USA in many parts of the world
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-06-23-world-poll_x.htm

Now, let me go back to the original point on Japan. This is my main concern. Canadians are held with extremely high admiration and mostly well liked in China. This is due to Norman Bethune's legacy in China + "Da Shan" Mark Rowswell who happens to be the most well known and popular Westerner in China. Even the book series "Anne of Green Gables" is well received in China. As we all know, there is a huge Chinese population in Canada and that our 2nd largest trading partner is China. There is a tremendous opportunity for Canadians to take advantage of this whether it is simply visiting China or doing business with China. That means in comparison with say the Americans or the British:
1) we might have an easier time interacting with local officials and whatever bureaucracy to reach the Chinese market
2) we will probably be greeted far more warmly by the Chinese people

Now, Harper's statement probably did not have much effect on the Canadian public. In fact, I didn't even hear of it until this thread. This statement would really have a negative effect on the Chinese public. It would be hard to even find one Chinese person that does not hate Japanese. I just worry this kind of actions by Harper would really hurt Canada's image and that would really make China less of an opportunity for Canadians.

tphuang
31 Jul 06,, 07:45
HA! far to right??

wow...the current Conservatives are moving ever closer to the Center of things, in order to sway Libral voters... far to right for your liking? you must be a librano
Well, Harper certainly had to change many of his lines in order to get more of the central vote. You can imagine that the old Reform policies don't charm too many people in Ontario.

As for me, I would call myself a left-wing evangelical Christian (if that exists). Basically, right wing on moral issues and left wing on most other issues.



Actually, tphuang's just a Chinese Communist. And I don't mean the old model communist - I mean the new breed of communist that eschews economic communism, while wholeheartedly backing the old-fashioned political kind where power emerges out of the barrel of a gun. I threw "Chinese" in there because he's an old-fashioned Chinese nationalist. Remember the German American Bund and its deep emotional attachment to Nazi Germany? The average North American Chinese is pretty much like that with respect to Communist China. There are exceptions - including the Colonel - but they are exceptions, not the rule.

Who the heck are you? calling me a Chinese Communist. Maybe you should go to Little Italy and check out which country they were representing during the world cup. Maybe you should check out what the Slavic Canadians were doing during Kosovo. Compared to those people, I'm a serious Canadian patriot.

Ray
31 Jul 06,, 08:37
tphuang,

What's the Chinese view of Pearl S Buck?

ZFBoxcar
31 Jul 06,, 14:26
Basically, right wing on moral issues and left wing on most other issues.

Ugh, that's the worst of both worlds :tongue:

Officer of Engineers
31 Jul 06,, 14:36
University of Waterloo - Enough said.

gunnut
31 Jul 06,, 19:49
I was watching Larry King interview the Dali Llama on CNN once, and he cut off the dali mid-sentance....i was like "woa"

it just seemed weird, but i guess that Larry can do that to anyone lol

I'm sorry, but I don't see why the Llama is so special. He's just another religious leader like the Pope.

I'm not religious, so all religious leaders are just another human being to me.

gunnut
31 Jul 06,, 19:54
Ugh, that's the worst of both worlds :tongue:

I was about to say, that's one weird combination.

tphuang
31 Jul 06,, 20:22
I was about to say, that's one weird combination.
or as I like to say, unique :tongue:

To Ray, not really sure about Pearl S Buck. She is not really talked about that much, unlike Bethune, who seems to have the entire chicom propoganda force behind him.

Tronic
31 Jul 06,, 20:42
I'm sorry, but I don't see why the Llama is so special. He's just another religious leader like the Pope.

I'm not religious, so all religious leaders are just another human being to me.
He's not "just" another religious leader... He stands more for Tibetan Independance and for peace around the world then he stands for Budhism...

gunnut
31 Jul 06,, 21:30
He's not "just" another religious leader... He stands more for Tibetan Independance and for peace around the world then he stands for Budhism...

Um...he's not really a Buddhist. His religion is different than the one in China, which is different from the one in Japan, and the one where they all originated from, in India.

Tronic
31 Jul 06,, 21:44
no, he is a Buddhist... They (Tibetans) are different from the Chinese, Japanese and South Asian Budhists primarily in their culture and traditions... same goes for Indian Hindus... Wherever you go, you'll find that Hindus everywhere will have different cultures and traditions.. Every state you go to and see the Hindu religion, it's not going to feel like it is Hinduism... Hindus in different parts of India follow different traditions that every place will seem like a totally different religion... and different Hindus follow different beliefs... but they still all get categorized as "Hinduism"... same for Buddhists...

gunnut
31 Jul 06,, 22:51
I don't think it's that simple. It's like Catholicism and Christianity. Kinda similar, but very different at the same time.

Tronic
31 Jul 06,, 23:48
yea... hard to explain... good example...

Confed999
01 Aug 06,, 01:41
That's low.
Why? Seems one would have to be ok with it, not to consider it a problem.

Canmoore
01 Aug 06,, 03:55
Would you think that Larry King would have cut off someone like lets say George Bush?

He is also just another human being, no differant than the Dali Llama..but some reason i can see King cutting him off mid-speech.

gunnut
01 Aug 06,, 05:49
Would you think that Larry King would have cut off someone like lets say George Bush?

He is also just another human being, no differant than the Dali Llama..but some reason i can see King cutting him off mid-speech.

Sure he can. The problem is George Bush would then blacklist Larry and never appear on his show again. These media types are all about ratings. They stay polite to the big names because they want repeat customers.

Dali Llama, not as important. He's probably looking for more appearances to get his word out. Completely different customer.

tphuang
01 Aug 06,, 05:49
Why? Seems one would have to be ok with it, not to consider it a problem.
Muslims think that way about USA
Chinese think that way about Japan
Israelites think that way about Iran/Syria
Japanese think that way about North Korea

There are a lot of people out there who don't look at China as a problem. The majority of the Canadians I know are either indifferent to China or like China. We hardly get any kind of "China threat" type of news. So, I just don't think Canada as a whole view China as a problem.

Confed999
01 Aug 06,, 13:06
Muslims think that way about USA
You mean Muslim nations? As the ones here know they're free to do just about anything they please.

Chinese think that way about Japan
Japan has far more freedom than China.

Israelites think that way about Iran/Syria
Japanese think that way about North Korea
All 3 of those are definately tyrannies. All 3 of those are worse than China.

We hardly get any kind of "China threat" type of news.
It has nothing to do with threat, it has to do with the liberties and treatment of their peoples.

tphuang
01 Aug 06,, 16:14
You mean Muslim nations? As the ones here know they're free to do just about anything they please.

Japan has far more freedom than China.

That does not stop Chinese people from looking at Japan as a tyrannical country. I guess Chinese people just don't value freedom that much.


All 3 of those are definately tyrannies. All 3 of those are worse than China.

It has nothing to do with threat, it has to do with the liberties and treatment of their peoples.
Well, there are plenty of dictatorships and "democracies" (those that don't really operate like a democracy) around the world. Harper is saying nothing about them, but chooses to voice out China. I disagree with him, because I think he is hurting Canadian interests

ZFBoxcar
01 Aug 06,, 16:50
China can't really afford to be offended right now. The CCP's power depends on continuing to provide gigantic economic growth. That growth would be jeopardized if they get into diplomatic/political/economic spats with their major trading partners. It doesn't really matter what Harper says. And by the time China can afford to be offended I hope there is no longer reason to offend them (meaning they would be a democracy).

gunnut
01 Aug 06,, 18:26
That does not stop Chinese people from looking at Japan as a tyrannical country. I guess Chinese people just don't value freedom that much.

I think you have "tyrannical" mixed up with "imperialistic."

One can be non-tyrannical and still imperialistic.

Asians generally don't trust Japanese because of past aggressions. Doesn't matter how free Japan is today.

Tronic
01 Aug 06,, 19:15
I guess Chinese people just don't value freedom that much.

you sure about that??? The students at Tienman Square have a different story to tell...


Asians generally don't trust Japanese because of past aggressions. Doesn't matter how free Japan is today.
I trust Japan... and i'm sure most Indians trust Japan... thats ~20% of the worlds population right there... lol...

gunnut
01 Aug 06,, 19:33
I trust Japan... and i'm sure most Indians trust Japan... thats ~20% of the worlds population right there... lol...

But 25% of the world's population don't trust Japan. China (1.3 billion), South Korea (48 mil), Phillipines (90 mil), Vietnam (84 mil), and some other nations like Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, generally don't trust Japan.

Indians have a more favorable view of Japan because the Axis helped the Indian independence movement in WW2 for obvious reasons (Brits).

Tronic
01 Aug 06,, 20:31
hey hey, now there... we fought the Japanese during WW2 aswell... lol... Japanese didn't help us in any way... Bose, (the leader who went to ask for Japans assistence died in a plane crash on his way back to India... most people think that the Japanese killed him because no such plane crash is known to have occured over Taiwan...) why the Japanese killed him??? dunno... maybe they thought he was a British agent??? :confused: thats a mystery...

tphuang
01 Aug 06,, 21:31
you sure about that??? The students at Tienman Square have a different story to tell...


I trust Japan... and i'm sure most Indians trust Japan... thats ~20% of the worlds population right there... lol...
Maybe you want the email address of someone who participated in TianAnMen Square rally, so you can be slightly more informed. I know one such person from my Christian fellowship.



I think you have "tyrannical" mixed up with "imperialistic."

Possibly, but Chinese people look at Japan as this tyrant that ruled ruthlessly over a large part of their land for 8 years.



China can't really afford to be offended right now.

Not the gov't, the population.

gunnut
01 Aug 06,, 21:46
hey hey, now there... we fought the Japanese during WW2 aswell... lol... Japanese didn't help us in any way... Bose, (the leader who went to ask for Japans assistence died in a plane crash on his way back to India... most people think that the Japanese killed him because no such plane crash is known to have occured over Taiwan...) why the Japanese killed him??? dunno... maybe they thought he was a British agent??? :confused: thats a mystery...

My apologies.

India didn't help Japan in WW2, that's not what I meant.

I meant Japan didn't invade and oppress India during WW2, and helped a certain contingent of Indian independence force to fight the British.

gunnut
01 Aug 06,, 21:50
Possibly, but Chinese people look at Japan as this tyrant that ruled ruthlessly over a large part of their land for 8 years.

Yes, imperialistic first, then tyrannical.

Japan wasn't too kind to most of its subjects during the imperial days as they regarded them as, at best, 2nd class citizens, at worst, disposable.

British Empire was imperialistic as well, but not that tyrannical. At least not to the degree of the Japanese. You can see that today as many of the former British colonies actually have favorable impression of their former colonial master. The British Commonwealth is alive and well today.

You don't see a Japanese Commonwealth.

astralis
02 Aug 06,, 01:35
British Empire was imperialistic as well, but not that tyrannical. At least not to the degree of the Japanese. You can see that today as many of the former British colonies actually have favorable impression of their former colonial master. The British Commonwealth is alive and well today.

interestingly enough, gunnut (and unfortunately a bit off-topic),

most of those countries that have a favorable impression of their former colonial master are usually the ones the british took over prior to the Indian Mutiny. after the Mutiny, british ideals and ideas about the nature of imperialism underwent a sea-change...and not for the better. attitudes in those later colonies towards the UK reflect this.

Confed999
02 Aug 06,, 01:36
Possibly, but Chinese people look at Japan as this tyrant that ruled ruthlessly over a large part of their land for 8 years.
We killed those guys...

Tronic
02 Aug 06,, 18:42
interestingly enough, gunnut (and unfortunately a bit off-topic),

most of those countries that have a favorable impression of their former colonial master are usually the ones the british took over prior to the Indian Mutiny. after the Mutiny, british ideals and ideas about the nature of imperialism underwent a sea-change...and not for the better. attitudes in those later colonies towards the UK reflect this.
actually, in all honestly, I don't think there is even one (or is there???) Nation which was a british colony that has a bad expression of England... I think most of the nations realize that the times have changed and those were the times of imperialism and we got chewed... ;)

tphuang
02 Aug 06,, 22:44
We killed those guys...
scars run deep in a culture as old as the Chinese one.
And as we know, it really really doesn't help the Japanese case that Koizumi is visiting the war shrine and the Japanese text books are blotting out what Chinese people believe are the truths.

dabrownguy
02 Aug 06,, 23:47
I still can't understand the bad impression of Modern Japan. Japan is totally different know with there bullet trains, Godzilla, anime, and Jpop. I now that Chinese abroad don't hate Japanese. Which leads me to believe the hate is state sponsered. I'm suprising textbooks can cause such riots. :biggrin:

Tronic
02 Aug 06,, 23:49
I'm suprising textbooks can cause such riots. :biggrin:

whats so surprising about that??? Just look at the Middle East...

Confed999
03 Aug 06,, 00:42
scars run deep in a culture as old as the Chinese one.
Well, like it or not, they're mad at dead people and a dead culture...

gunnut
03 Aug 06,, 01:19
Well, like it or not, they're mad at dead people and a dead culture...

True.

But Japan doesn't help the situation by honoring war criminals and changing history in their text books. It's like Angela Merkel honoring the SS and issueing text books that refer to death camps as "worker's camps."

Confed999
03 Aug 06,, 01:24
But Japan doesn't help the situation by honoring war criminals and changing history in their text books. It's like Angela Merkel honoring the SS and issueing text books that refer to death camps as "worker's camps."
The books are a problem, but there can be something found to be honored about most people, no matter how bad. Either way, it's not worth hate.

tphuang
03 Aug 06,, 02:01
The books are a problem, but there can be something found to be honored about most people, no matter how bad. Either way, it's not worth hate.
The problem is not the visit to the shrine itself (I don't think), it's more the Chinese perception that Japan is no longer recognizing its actions of WWII. It believes that Japan is supporting and admiring those who killed millions of Chinese civilians in WWII. I think a fair question would be how Israel would feel if Germany started to do the same thing. In fact, if anyone in North America openly supports Hitler and refutes that holocaust happened, how Jewish people would feel toward this person.



I now that Chinese abroad don't hate Japanese.

Mainlanders don't hate individual Japanese person, but just the people that in their mind are actively trying to erase history.

Also, many Chinese abroad don't feel that connection with China itself.

astralis
03 Aug 06,, 02:32
dabrownguy,


I still can't understand the bad impression of Modern Japan. Japan is totally different know with there bullet trains, Godzilla, anime, and Jpop. I now that Chinese abroad don't hate Japanese. Which leads me to believe the hate is state sponsered. I'm suprising textbooks can cause such rio

way to understand japanese culture, and chinese beliefs. swimming in the shallow pool, are you? :biggrin:

confed,


Well, like it or not, they're mad at dead people and a dead culture...

the people are not all dead yet and the culture itself is still far from dead. the US, in its hurry to raise japan as a regional ally against the soviets, never fully punished the guilty japanese. the trials were haphazard and often more about those generals who had hurt macarthur's ego than the ones who had committed the worst atrocities.

the fact that some elements of the culture that led to japanese miltarism is NOT all dead can be seen in the rather enormous and innate sense of (selective) xenophobia that many japanese share. koreans living in japan for centuries are still looked down upon.

just their whole recalcitrance upon this shrine and textbook issue is an indicator of what type of feelings are held, used, and exploited by those in power. visit yasukuni shrine, and read the displays by the museum. when the shrine operators were dismayed by the type of feelings yasukuni created in the rest of asia (and especially china), guess what they did- they TRANSLATED the museum displays telling how Japan brought peace and civilization to the rest of Asia into Chinese.

and now we hear that japanese extremist groups are now busy parading in imperial japanese army uniforms and SS uniforms in front of yasukuni...

Confed999
03 Aug 06,, 03:10
the people are not all dead yet and the culture itself is still far from dead.
Not all Nazis are dead, so the Allies should hate Germany? There are people everywhere who would advocate a return to imperialistic policies.

and now we hear that japanese extremist groups are now busy parading in imperial japanese army uniforms and SS uniforms in front of yasukuni...
Wow! They're less oppressive than Germany! ;)

I don't see where any of these arguments show China is free, and Japan is a tyranny. Which was my original statement that China is indeed a problem.

astralis
03 Aug 06,, 04:54
confed,

not trying to argue that china is free and japan is a tyranny- that's obviously a lost cause right now :biggrin:

what i AM trying to explain is the visceral reaction when you talk to chinese, or for that matter most east asians (koreans especially- and where's all the talk about THEIR textbooks?), about japan/japanese foreign policy.

it might not be worth the hate, but i think the important thing to note is that the governments in question have no need to stir up anti-japanese feeling. it's already there.

it's easier for us to urge calm, simply because the US wasn't occupied by the japanese (the japanese "merely" tortured, did live-dissections, live chemical/bioweapon experiments on our servicemen).

i can guarantee you right now that if japan had occupied hawaii (let alone large sections of the continental US), and set up the whole summary execution-collaborationist-slave labor-comfort women system there, japan would NOT exist right now. not as non-radioactive country, anyway. :eek: and we'd still probably hate that!

Archer
03 Aug 06,, 07:15
I still can't understand the bad impression of Modern Japan. Japan is totally different know with there bullet trains, Godzilla, anime, and Jpop. I now that Chinese abroad don't hate Japanese. Which leads me to believe the hate is state sponsered. I'm suprising textbooks can cause such riots. :biggrin:


That anime/manga culture alone is scary. JPop qualifies as WMD. :mad: :tongue:

Archer
03 Aug 06,, 07:20
Not all Nazis are dead, so the Allies should hate Germany? There are people everywhere who would advocate a return to imperialistic policies.

Wow! They're less oppressive than Germany! ;)

I don't see where any of these arguments show China is free, and Japan is a tyranny. Which was my original statement that China is indeed a problem.


Yup...any oppressive Govt needs to ensure that it has a convenient scapegoat to periodically thrash for its publics attention...Japan is useful for the PRC thataway..

Japanese troops horribly mistreated Indian POWs...those who didnt join the INA freedom fighters/ rebels...one account even mentioned forced cannibalism..

The Indian Govt didnt spend its time thereafter playing up those warcrimes...it let bygones be bygones..

astralis
03 Aug 06,, 07:31
archer,



Yup...any oppressive Govt needs to ensure that it has a convenient scapegoat to periodically thrash for its publics attention...Japan is useful for the PRC thataway..

Japanese troops horribly mistreated Indian POWs...those who didnt join the INA freedom fighters/ rebels...one account even mentioned forced cannibalism..

The Indian Govt didnt spend its time thereafter playing up those warcrimes...it let bygones be bygones..

if that's the case, the PRC gov't wouldn't bother trying to suppress anti-japanese riots, which it has.

as for india...it has other whipping boys closer to home than japan. :biggrin:

Archer
03 Aug 06,, 07:46
Its also often said that the PRC egged those riots along..it began suppressing them once they blew up..

Contrary to your belief the Indian Govt has not had whipping boys even closer home...the Indian Govt has lived in its peacenikky, Gandhi derived world for ages now...the only rage has been against "imperialism"...which to be perfectly honest, most Indians dont care about..they're too young to have lived then and cared...

To be honest tho'- its not just Japan, from what i've seen mainland chinese bar sensible ones, but still far too many, seem to have a solid xenophobic streak...as harsh as it may appear, against indians..japanese...and even south koreans..that apart, there is the entire attitude over taiwan & tibet..

none of that anger is directed towards mao, who was a greater genocidal lunatic than most..and killed so many chinese...its like they are simply unaware...but know each & every indignity done by japan etc

gilgamesh
03 Aug 06,, 09:19
That anime/manga culture alone is scary. JPop qualifies as WMD. :mad: :tongue:

Maybbe, but the Zattaochi series rocks, especially the the new one with Beat Takeshi. So much blood and gore... :biggrin:

astralis
03 Aug 06,, 09:53
archer,


Contrary to your belief the Indian Govt has not had whipping boys even closer home...the Indian Govt has lived in its peacenikky, Gandhi derived world for ages now...the only rage has been against "imperialism"...which to be perfectly honest, most Indians dont care about..they're too young to have lived then and cared

i needn't remind you of a certain "hidden hand", now, do i? :biggrin: and that's just one example.


none of that anger is directed towards mao, who was a greater genocidal lunatic than most..and killed so many chinese...its like they are simply unaware...but know each & every indignity done by japan etc

regarding mao: you are kidding yourself if you don't think chinese are not aware of his mistakes. countless millions lived through the disaster that was the GLF and were ostracized/exiled in the cultural revolution. this was something that was heavily seared into the chinese psyche, to the point where even mao's fellow leaders- and eventual successors- saw 6/4 not so much as a call for democracy, but as a repeat of the dreaded Red Guard days.

as a taiwanese, i tell you now that calling mao "genocidal" is off the mark, because he didn't seek the destruction of a particular race. and repeating an oft-heard refrain, it cannot be denied that his policies were clumsy and badly thought out, leading to the deaths of millions. but it was, as most chinese understood it, for the cause of a stronger china. to call him genocidal would be to condemn many of the former emperors, for example, as genocidal. the japanese, on the other hand, did their murdering quite deliberately, from battle-rage to pure calculation, ie, their "three all" directive ("kill all, burn all, loot all").

it is quite telling that whereas the chinese were able to tolerate the excesses/incompetence of mao, they were not able to tolerate the excesses/incompetence of chiang kai-shek.

in any case, i fear i am getting rather off-topic, so i will close the post by moving the talk back onto this idea of xenophobia (somewhat closer to the topic). it is perhaps a mistake to generalize too much, but here, i assert that while both nations exhibit signs of xenophobia, the xenophobia is expressed differently and is on a far different level when comparing the two nations. this is because of history and culture.

the chinese have long been an imperial nation, holding sway over a bewildering multitude of different races, religions, and cultures. the tributary system also guaranteed plenty of contact between the chinese and outside countries.

the japanese, on the other hand, have largely been closed off by virtue of their island status. the one particularly different culture- the ainu- were long chased off. their foreign policy focus, right up to the 20th century, dealt primarily with only two countries: china and korea, something that was true even before their self-imposed isolationist period.

how can you measure this? just look at the way each country treated its prisoners in the modern era. did the PLA ever conduct live medical experiments on its prisoners, bury them alive, go on head-chopping contests, and engage in cannibalism on its captives? :eek:

Archer
03 Aug 06,, 11:03
archer,
i needn't remind you of a certain "hidden hand", now, do i? :biggrin: and that's just one example.

For lawds sake, at least know something of what you speak...the so called hidden hand went out a decade & a half back with the death of indira gandhi and the old congress..its a bloody joke now..

and even at that time, it was a farce, with cartoonists and edits openly mocking it

its telling that the only ones who believed it seriously and still do are the indian communists..

And secondly, India for all practical purposes was many a times at loggerheads with the us over pak, weapons transfers etc.

dunno if you even know, but in the mid 70's and late 80's- it was not uncommon for US sd types to routinely excoriate india over the poor people of khalistan, kashmir...look up dana rohrbacher or dan burtons speeches for instance..

but that didnt make indians hate the US...unlike what i see many chinese today doing wrt japanese...

do indians uniformly hate turkey or some -stan over islamic invasions? do they routinely throw a hissy fit because the queens consort in the UK says at a factory "that fuse box looks as if its been put in by indians"?

point is in a messy, raucous democracy, all these things get muted out...the diversity of opinion ensures that one "uniform" thought does not get planted..

and secondly, the indian govt has not forced a victim complex..unlike what i see the prc doing..

i consider this a good thing, because victim complex'es prevent you from going on...they just screw you over..




regarding mao: you are kidding yourself if you don't think chinese are not aware of his mistakes. countless millions lived through the disaster that was the GLF and were ostracized/exiled in the cultural revolution. this was something that was heavily seared into the chinese psyche, to the point where even mao's fellow leaders- and eventual successors- saw 6/4 not so much as a call for democracy, but as a repeat of the dreaded Red Guard days.

riiiiiiggghht! well for one, to call maos genocidal antics " mistakes" is like me calling someone like pol pot a "problem"..

so his fellow coterie, another bunch of thugs - but lesser thugs finally chuck him out.

good for the chinese, but do the chinese people still not deify mao?

heck, in the us itself, i know of colleges where the chinese students association have gone on whining binges because of disrespect to mao and prc by association.

there was another recently publicized case of something similar happening..
if thats not brainwashing, what is, i wonder!



as a taiwanese, i tell you now that calling mao "genocidal" is off the mark, because he didn't seek the destruction of a particular race. and repeating an oft-heard refrain, it cannot be denied that his policies were clumsy and badly thought out, leading to the deaths of millions.

ok, so he wasnt genocidal...he was just a murdering, rapacious, incredibly brutal man who caused the deaths of millions..well, sure makes him better in my book!
this is semantics..

second, as a taiwanese, you are not mainland -astralis, you may not deify mao- but many chinese do..



but it was, as most chinese understood it, for the cause of a stronger china. to call him genocidal would be to condemn many of the former emperors, for example, as genocidal.


which is why i use the term brainwashing....if murdering millions makes for a stronger china and this is what some chinese people fervently believe in, then that sir, is a big problem.

i hate p!ssing contests, but if some indian leader were to do this, his/ her head would be on a plate..or for that matter in most places..

so what if your past emperors were genocidal? call them so! do u see indians giving the likes of aurangzeb & co a free pass?



the japanese, on the other hand, did their murdering quite deliberately, from battle-rage to pure calculation, ie, their "three all" directive ("kill all, burn all, loot all").

again semantics..so lets cut to the chase ...to my eyes, it appears that to the chinese, mao was their Sob, whereas the japanese army were external SOBs..




it is quite telling that whereas the chinese were able to tolerate the excesses/incompetence of mao, they were not able to tolerate the excesses/incompetence of chiang kai-shek.

i am pointing to the fact that the chinese appear to tolerate such excesses rather excessively..
mao was a disaster for china..




in any case, i fear i am getting rather off-topic, so i will close the post by moving the talk back onto this idea of xenophobia (somewhat closer to the topic). it is perhaps a mistake to generalize too much, but here, i assert that while both nations exhibit signs of xenophobia, the xenophobia is expressed differently and is on a far different level when comparing the two nations. this is because of history and culture.

see i dont say that the japanese are better than the chinese in terms of xenophobia


the chinese have long been an imperial nation, holding sway over a bewildering multitude of different races, religions, and cultures. the tributary system also guaranteed plenty of contact between the chinese and outside countries.

the japanese, on the other hand, have largely been closed off by virtue of their island status. the one particularly different culture- the ainu- were long chased off. their foreign policy focus, right up to the 20th century, dealt primarily with only two countries: china and korea, something that was true even before their self-imposed isolationist period.

how can you measure this? just look at the way each country treated its prisoners in the modern era. did the PLA ever conduct live medical experiments on its prisoners, bury them alive, go on head-chopping contests, and engage in cannibalism on its captives? :eek:

what you are basically referring to is the degree to which the bushido culture warped japan, but todays japan has moved on..

but do the japanese run tanks over their people, have organ farms with prisoners or ensure population control by injecting saline into baby skulls?

no disrespect to the chinese people intended, but their govt is by far too brutal and the urban elite seem to be least bothered about it.

astralis
03 Aug 06,, 19:08
archer,


For lawds sake, at least know something of what you speak...the so called hidden hand went out a decade & a half back with the death of indira gandhi and the old congress..its a bloody joke now..

the whole point is that even india has had her whipping boys. all nations do. the US military, for example, uses the PRC military as a whipping boy everytime the issue of funding comes up.


but that didnt make indians hate the US...unlike what i see many chinese today doing wrt japanese...

a few politicos insulting indians is not the same as widescale rape, mass executions, assassinations, and occupation.


and secondly, the indian govt has not forced a victim complex..unlike what i see the prc doing..

and this is what i've been trying to tell you the whole time: the PRC does NOT need to "force" a victim complex: the scale of brutality that the japanese inflicted on the chinese was so heavy that it arose as a natural development. you bring up mao's tremendous mistakes and point out that they killed quite a few chinese. very true- and guess what, chinese are still haunted by mao's actions to this very day, even with "patriotic education"!


ok, so he wasnt genocidal...he was just a murdering, rapacious, incredibly brutal man who caused the deaths of millions..well, sure makes him better in my book!


which is why i use the term brainwashing....if murdering millions makes for a stronger china and this is what some chinese people fervently believe in, then that sir, is a big problem.

deng xiaoping once said that mao's legacy was 70% good and 30% bad. i personally think the bad part is rather higher (as i'm sure you do), but at the same time, mao did what no chinese leader was able to effectively do since around qianlong's time: unify china, throw out the rampaging warlords, build up china's military to where western powers would think very, very hard about invading china. there should be some respect accorded to that.

to put it in another perspective, look at the example of mossadegh and iran. when mossadegh nationalized the Anglo-Iran Oil Company, everyone (including himself) knew that he was effectively ruining iran's oil exports, impoverishing millions; they knew that such a move was going to call the wrath of the UK on iran's head. despite all this, they were quite willing- and indeed fanatically eager- about carrying this out.

this is something that's not restricted to such countries, as well. out of a population of 30 million, the US lost 600K+ in the US civil war. that's 2%+ of the population. for a population of 500 million (china's population around the 40s-50s), that would be in the neighborhood of 10+ million. so...


what you are basically referring to is the degree to which the bushido culture warped japan, but todays japan has moved on..

to a certain extent, as i've mentioned to confed earlier.


but do the japanese run tanks over their people, have organ farms with prisoners or ensure population control by injecting saline into baby skulls?

ah, and you tell me that i am out of the times with that reference to the hidden hand! tell you what, both you and i, with our examples, have shown ourselves to be a bit behind. ;)


no disrespect to the chinese people intended, but their govt is by far too brutal and the urban elite seem to be least bothered about it.

the gov't of today is nowhere close to the level of brutality shown by the revolutionary leaders. and this is BECAUSE the urban elite were bothered by it, as seen in the demonstrations of the 80s, and principally, 6/4. the CCP can no longer afford to be too brutal, as they know quite well that their survival hangs in the balance.

a good chat, sir. :biggrin:

gunnut
03 Aug 06,, 19:22
the whole point is that even india has had her whipping boys. all nations do. the US military, for example, uses the PRC military as a whipping boy everytime the issue of funding comes up.

We prefer to call it "potential adversary." :biggrin:

tphuang
03 Aug 06,, 21:09
Not all Nazis are dead, so the Allies should hate Germany? There are people everywhere who would advocate a return to imperialistic policies.

Wow! They're less oppressive than Germany! ;)

I don't see where any of these arguments show China is free, and Japan is a tyranny. Which was my original statement that China is indeed a problem.
Actually, I think we kind of got off topic quite a bit. But my original point is that different cultures judge tyranny differently. And that different countries view different countries as problems. While, USA may view China as a problem, Canada may not.

To Archer,


1) Most Chinese people do not like Mao or think of him as a God.
2) You can't compare what Indians suffered under Japanese to what China/South Korea suffered. Japan did not walk into Delhi and kill half of the population and burnt down the city.
3) It's not the government, people do not like Japanese because they still remember what happened 60 years ago. This kind of stuff gets passed down through the generations. Same with the cultural revolution and the great leap forward. Even without Chinese government promoting it, everyone in China knows the harm that it did to China.

dabrownguy
03 Aug 06,, 23:08
Jews hate Hitler and his Nazis. They don't hate Germany.
Justify why Chinese hate Japan today when it was forefathers of Japan that commited the crimes. Todays Japan loans China money in soft loans, builds its infuastructure. Why do Chinese still hate Japanese government? Think about it. Japan is China's scapegoat and justification for the military arms build up. Because Taiwan isn't enough alone to justify it.

gunnut
03 Aug 06,, 23:42
Jews hate Hitler and his Nazis. They don't hate Germany.
Justify why Chinese hate Japan today when it was forefathers of Japan that commited the crimes. Todays Japan loans China money in soft loans, builds its infuastructure. Why do Chinese still hate Japanese government? Think about it. Japan is China's scapegoat and justification for the military arms build up. Because Taiwan isn't enough alone to justify it.

Do you think Jews would hate the German government if the German head of state pays tribute to war criminals and state sanctioned text books refer to Nazi death camps as "work camps?"

That's essentially what Japanese government is doing. It is a "holocaust denier" in everyway except the victims were Chinese instead of Jews.

You can bet all hell would break loose if the American government denied slavery had ever existed in America and instead refered to the slaves as "foreign workers."

China doesn't hate Japan for being a democracy or economic power house. Chinese resents the Japanese government for not taking the responsibility of committing crimes against humanity and starting a war that killed 20 million Chinese.

dabrownguy
03 Aug 06,, 23:52
Do you think Jews would hate the German government if the German head of state pays tribute to war criminals and state sanctioned text books refer to Nazi death camps as "work camps?"
Japanese soldiers did die trying to protect Japan from America.


And roits won't exactly get sympathy from Japanese. You have to admit. Japan's being targeted. The roits were state sponsered no?

The CCP can always stop roits. We know that as a fact. Chinese can't vent anger on Mao and certainly not the CCP so they blame Japan for suffering.
I do have a question. Were there roits in the other ASEAN nations against Japan at any time? Certianly China's not the only nation that suffered under the hands of Japanese imperalist.

Also weren't Indian POW loyal to the Raj used as boynet practice?

gunnut
03 Aug 06,, 23:56
Japanese soldiers did die trying to protect Japan from America.

They weren't honoring ordinary soldiers. They were honoring men who have committed war crimes, and who had ordered the men to commit war crimes.


And roits won't exactly get sympathy from Japanese. You have to admit. Japan's being targeted. The roits were state sponsered no?

I don't know if the riots were state sponsered. I'm just telling you where the ill-will towards Japan came from and why.

dabrownguy
04 Aug 06,, 00:00
They weren't honoring ordinary soldiers. They were honoring men who have committed war crimes, and who had ordered the men to commit war crimes.
Isn't it possible to be a war criminal but a martyer that protected Japan from American invasion?

gunnut
04 Aug 06,, 00:10
Isn't it possible to be a war criminal but a martyer that protected Japan from American invasion?

Sure it is.

Dr. Josef Megele was a brilliant physician too.

The point is the evils these men have committed greatly outweighed their positive contribution.

And then the government of Japan never admitted to invade China just rubbed salt into the wound.

Confed999
04 Aug 06,, 03:08
But my original point is that different cultures judge tyranny differently.
A tyranny is an oppressive government in this case. If China thinks Japan is a tyranny, then the word tyranny in Chinese means "much more free than us"...

While, USA may view China as a problem, Canada may not.
And I'm back to my original point as well: If they don't see tyranny as a problem, sure...

gilgamesh
04 Aug 06,, 03:13
China doesn't hate Japan for being a democracy or economic power house. Chinese resents the Japanese government for not taking the responsibility of committing crimes against humanity and starting a war that killed 20 million Chinese.

In what ways should the Japanese govt take responsibility for the WW2 and assauge the Chinese and Koreans?

tphuang
04 Aug 06,, 03:40
A tyranny is an oppressive government in this case. If China thinks Japan is a tyranny, then the word tyranny in Chinese means "much more free than us"...

- how about oppressing the truth? That's basically what the problem is, right?


And I'm back to my original point as well: If they don't see tyranny as a problem, sure...
- you view Chinese gov't in a too narrow of a view if you think about it that way
- it has done some terrible things in the past, but it has done many more good things for its citizens (especially in the recent years)



The roits were state sponsered no?

sort of, I mean people definitely did want to riot. This is not reflecting their frustration toward CCP. If you think there isn't genuine hate toward Japan, you really should find some Chinese Visa students and you will see what I mean. I guess they are state sponsored in the way that the gov't gave them license to protest in this case. Normally, it doesn't give license for people to protest.



In what ways should Japanese govt take responsibility for the WW2 and assauge the Chinese and Koreans.

- Japanese PM visit the main cities where the atrocities occurred in WW2 (especially Nanking) and sincerely apologize to the people of those city
- Stop visiting war shrine
- get rid of textbooks that rewrote the history
- Make it a crime to try to rewrite history (basically, what the German gov't is doing with those who try to say that Holocaust did not happen)

Officer of Engineers
04 Aug 06,, 03:46
In what ways should the Japanese govt take responsibility for the WW2 and assauge the Chinese and Koreans?
A government apology for WW2. Compensation for their victims, specifically the Comfort Women and the Human experiments. Citizenship for the Korean decendents of the slaves brought over from Korea to Japan.

Confed999
04 Aug 06,, 03:47
- how about oppressing the truth? That's basically what the problem is, right?
Definately a problem, but then they aren't imprisoning anyone for speaking the truth, or lies. People are what matter.

- you view Chinese gov't in a too narrow of a view if you think about it that way
To say it's a problem? No I'm not.

- it has done some terrible things in the past, but it has done many more good things for its citizens (especially in the recent years)
So it's less of a tyranny than it used to be. I never said it wasn't doing better, nor did I say it was worse, just that it is, and that is a problem.

astralis
04 Aug 06,, 03:51
we-elll,

for starters,


In what ways should the Japanese govt take responsibility for the WW2 and assauge the Chinese and Koreans?

re-write their textbooks to deal directly with the fact that the IJA went around asia enslaving and slaughtering millions. compensation to the tens of millions of victims would be nice, but starting off by giving compensation to the families of the hundreds of thousands of comfort women would be downright decent, as well. the amount of compensation $$ (and this is usually in the form of not monies given out, but loans) that japan has given out vis-a-vis germany is very, very lacking, and this is not even taking into account that japan is wealthier than germany is right now.

tear down yasukuni shrine, or if that's too much, kick out the Class-A war criminals. re-write the museum exhibits, all of which glorify japan and her involvement in the "Greater East Asia War". no more of this "east asia co-prosperity sphere" nonsense.

politicians, like a certain governor of tokyo named shintaro ishihara, who spout wonderful things like:

"They say we made a holocaust there, but that is not true. It is a lie made up by the Chinese." (speaking of the Nanjing Massacre)

"Fifty years of subservience to the interest of the United States has deprived the Japanese of a national purpose and engendered a paralyzing identity crisis."

as well as more happy things like "chinese of taiwanese origin" and koreans attacked japanese after WWII, so they fully deserved what they got.

those people shouldn't be in office.

that'd be a good start. but wake me up when it all happens, because the japanese ultranationalist right-wing is still rather strong in japan, and tend to attack any japanese- both politically and quite literally, via the yakuza- who suggest doing anything close to the above.

gunnut
04 Aug 06,, 04:49
Germans are light years ahead of the Japanese in acknowledging their wrong-doings in WW2.

No amount of money can make things right for the victims who have suffered directly under the Nazis or the Imperial Japanese government. A sincere apology by the government is a good start, of which the Germans did, and Japanese have repeatedly refused to.

I have no doubt the Jewish people and the government of Israel harbor very little resentment toward Germany today. Because the Germans have admitted fault and apologized for their crimes. There's no point in carrying on the hatred. They may hate the Nazis still, but those people are long since dead (mostly) and the current ones are viewed as fringe loonies.

Japan is a different matter. The government has not apologized for its crime. They continue to view war criminals as heroes and worship them accordingly. In fact, some of their text books denied the Japanese had ever invaded China. Imperialists and fringe loonies are more mainstream than the Nazis are today. Those are what pissed off the Chinese.