Moscow arms sale to Chavez angers US

[troung]

Moscow arms sale to Chavez angers US
Jeremy Page, Moscow
July 26, 2006
HUGO Chavez, the ardently anti-American President of Venezuela, arrived in Russia late last night to sign a billion-dollar arms deal that has infuriated and alarmed the US.

The self-styled leftist revolutionary will sign an agreement with President Vladimir Putin to buy 30 Sukhoi Su-30 fighter jets and 30 military helicopters worth $US1billion.

The two leaders will also discuss plans to build two Kalashnikov factories in Venezuela - to add to the 100,000 Kalashnikov AK-103 assault rifles Venezuela has bought from Russia in the past year.

The arms deals - and the visit by Mr Chavez - are the latest evidence of Mr Putin's drive to re-establish Russia as a counterbalance to the West in international affairs.

But they threaten to sour relations with Washington just a week after Mr Putin and President George W. Bush publicly reaffirmed their friendship at the G8 summit in St Petersburg.

The US has repeatedly asked Russia to reconsider its arms sales to Venezuela, which the State Department says does not co-operate in the fight against terrorism.

Washington has banned US arms manufacturers from selling to the oil-rich South American state, citing its support for Iraqi insurgents and close ties to Cuba, Iran and North Korea.

"In the international community's fight against terrorism, Venezuela is a liability," Frank Urbancic, a senior State Department official, recently told the house international relations subcommittee on terrorism.

He also expressed concern that Venezuela planned to sell on its new Kalashnikovs - or the guns that they are replacing - to help undermine pro-US governments in the region. Military experts say the Sukhoi jets could transform Venezuela's air force into the most powerful in South America within years.

Mr Chavez, who calls Mr Bush an alcoholic imperialist, says that the hardware is needed to repel US plans to invade Venezuela and take control of its huge oil reserves.

He even said recently that he could imagine the Sukhoi jets firing missiles at a US aircraft carrier off Venezuela's main La Guaira port.

"A Sukhoi jet could attack an invading navy floating off La Guaira and they don't miss, my brother," he said.

Russia says the sales do not violate agreements and are breakthroughs in a region traditionally dominated by the US.

Mr Chavez is visiting several countries including Belarus and Iran. In Belarus yesterday, he proposed forming a "combat team" with Aleksandr Lukashenko, the Belarussian President, who Washington calls "Europe's last dictator".

Mr Chavez was greeted at the presidential palace in Minsk with an honour guard, a military band and warm hugs and smiles from Mr Lukashenko.

Mr Lukashenko, like Mr Chavez, accuses the US of trying to overthrow him. "Here, I've got a new friend and together we'll form a team," he said.

Before beginning private talks with Mr Lukashenko, Mr Chavez said at a press conference: "I thank you, Alexander, for solidarity and we've come here to demonstrate our solidarity."

In reply, Mr Lukashenko called Mr Chavez "a man of extensive knowledge".

"Our two nations have a lot in common. We can form a strategic alliance," he said.

The Times

[Garry]

This protest has nothing to be justified. Everybody know that Chavez will never fight USA. As far as regional security talks it is nonsence.

- Flankers can not be used by terrorists
- Kalashnikov's are used already in massive scale and Venezuela could have TONS of this without any Russian involvement (and it did).
- Helicopters are even less a threat to regional security.

Monro doctrine is something quite hypocratic and not really sustainable in modern world. USA supplies weapons to Georgia whoes president is hostile to Russia without any discussions with whoever. Both Georgia and Venezuela are free to buy WHATEVER from WHOEVER, except WMD.

[highsea]

Nevertheless, Russia is coming down on the wrong side here. How would Putin feel if the US started pumping advanced weapons into Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Ukraine, Georgia?

Or maybe Chechnya? Russia is sending weapons to Iran and Syria that she knows full well are going to Hezbollah. How would Putin feel about US made MANPADS to Chechnya?

Chavez is a loose cannon- in 1962 Castro was hell bent on nuking the US with Soviet nukes, it was only Krushchev's cooler head that prevented it. Chavez could use these weapons against his neighbors to further destabilize South America, and who can say what he will do in the future.

Russia seems to be set on arming every country hostile to the US. To what end?

I'm saddened to see Russia moving down this path- I used to think our countries would be able to fashion some kind of rapproachment, but I don't see much chance of that anymore. Seems like Russia is just looking to ignite more proxy wars to me.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Expect some sort of US response in kind.

[Dreadnought]

So much for the two together battling terrorism together. You would think Russia would know better then to arm some of the regimes that it does. And it just so happens they are the ones on the worlds stage these days. Now they just inflated Chavez's head ten fold. Yeah I can see us fighting terrorists together...NOT! They arm the worlds terrorists!They just created another Kim Jong in Venezuala thanks guys I hope we return the favor in kind.

He even said recently that he could imagine the Sukhoi jets firing missiles at a US aircraft carrier off Venezuela's main La Guaira port.

Good I hope he can also imagine a tac nuc being fired at his house as soon as it happens. And American troops walking into his country before they rip it to pieces. What an *******! And the Russians were assholes for selling it to him. Guess they need the money for that disheveled wreck they call a Navy.

Perhaps we should offer some new toys to Chechnya, Georgia etc, and so fourth and see just how much they like turnabout.

I also wish the U.S. would give Chavez exactly what he wants so badly go take his country rip it the **** out from underneath him and use the boy scouts to do it and really embarass him.

[TopHatter]

Military experts say the Sukhoi jets could transform Venezuela's air force into the most powerful in South America within years.

A shiny and expensive collection of modern aircraft does not an air force make.

Just ask Saddam Hussein.

Mr Chavez, who calls Mr Bush an alcoholic imperialist, says that the hardware is needed to repel US plans to invade Venezuela and take control of its huge oil reserves.

More rhetoric from a leftist bent on showing his people, Latin America, and the rest of the world, that he is fully committed to confronting the norteamericanos and their "imperialist" ways...

...which tends to distract from any failures of his rule at home.

He even said recently that he could imagine the Sukhoi jets firing missiles at a US aircraft carrier off Venezuela's main La Guaira port.

He seems to be under the impression that a USN carrier group is going to sit like a bunch of fat ducks right outside La Guaira.

Apparently he hasn't considered the clouds of Tomahawk and CALCM cruise missiles that can rain down on his air bases like so many high explosive hailstones

"A Sukhoi jet could attack an invading navy floating off La Guaira and they don't miss, my brother," he said.

Apparently he's under the mistaken impression that American weapons do miss, and frequently at that.

Or that American warships don't shoot back

Or that a couple dozen Sukhois could somehow resist the 3 or 4 carrier groups that could dance all around his littorals.

Or that his Napoleon-complex rhetoric even matters right now, what with the Middle East a mess as usual.

[Dreadnought]

Mr Chavez is visiting several countries including Belarus and Iran. In Belarus yesterday, he proposed forming a "combat team" with Aleksandr Lukashenko, the Belarussian President, who Washington calls "Europe's last dictator".

Anybody for a reinactment of Yamamotos last flight using Chavez as a stunt double and f-22's in place of the original p38's?

[highsea]

...USA supplies weapons to Georgia whoes president is hostile to Russia without any discussions with whoever.

Weapons to Georgia have been minimal (10 Huey helos, 4 of which were for spare parts only), helmets, flak jackets, humvees, radios, training, etc. This material and training was specifically offered to use against Chechen rebels in the Pansiki Gorge and to protect the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline from terrorist attacks.

Hardly the equivalent of advanced Fighter jets, attack helicopters, hundreds of thousands of Kalashnikovs, etc....

[Dreadnought]

Better yet why dont we stomp Hugo into the sand and give his new toys and AK''s to some of Russia's closest friends. ;)

Then we all benefit.....

1) Hugo pays the bill and STFU
2) Venezuala gets a new leader
3) U.S. dont have to hear his neanderings anymore about a preemptive attack.
4) Russia learns not to sell arms to idiots that provoke the U.S. with some of the statement used above like threatening a U.S. carrier.

See all good

[gunnut]

He's like a little chihuahua barking at the world to feel better about himself. I think we should just not pay any attention to him and he'll eventually go away.

[Garry]

Nevertheless, Russia is coming down on the wrong side here. How would Putin feel if the US started pumping advanced weapons into Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Ukraine, Georgia?

Or maybe Chechnya? Russia is sending weapons to Iran and Syria that she knows full well are going to Hezbollah. How would Putin feel about US made MANPADS to Chechnya?

Chavez is a loose cannon- in 1962 Castro was hell bent on nuking the US with Soviet nukes, it was only Krushchev's cooler head that prevented it. Chavez could use these weapons against his neighbors to further destabilize South America, and who can say what he will do in the future.

Russia seems to be set on arming every country hostile to the US. To what end?

I'm saddened to see Russia moving down this path- I used to think our countries would be able to fashion some kind of rapproachment, but I don't see much chance of that anymore. Seems like Russia is just looking to ignite more proxy wars to me.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. Expect some sort of US response in kind.

Hi Highsea, I have another vision of this.

After USSR collapsed USA had a great chance to set a new relations but they missed that chance. Instead USA has expanded NATO against any agreements with Gorbachev. And now it does expand it further.... where is the end of that expansion? For a decade Russian politicians were listening for all possible advice from Washington and expected a partners like relations..... Do you know how long Russia has avoided any weapon trading with Iran against its economic interets? It expected some kind of reciprocity but in vain. However they felt that they are treated like loosers of the cold war. That was very wrong position. Now this chance is lost and politicians here see little remuneration from sacrificing their interest for vague promisses which are rarelly met.

Chechens had support in Congress and even made meeting with state deparments until Beslan. It was only after invasion to Iraq when USA cooled down their relationships with Chechens..... here they take every contact like this very painfully - but nobody seemed to care in 1996-2002. Now the same goes with Georgia.... USA really OPPOSES interests of Russia on its neigbouring territories.

I really doubt Venezuelians would fight their neigbours. Chavez is a populistic politician and he has got lots of cash. So it is better to sell him more hardware before USA made some coup there and placed their candidate.

Weapons to Georgia have been minimal (10 Huey helos, 4 of which were for spare parts only), helmets, flak jackets, humvees, radios, training, etc. This material and training was specifically offered to use against Chechen rebels in the Pansiki Gorge and to protect the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline from terrorist attacks.

Hardly the equivalent of advanced Fighter jets, attack helicopters, hundreds of thousands of Kalashnikovs, etc....

Yes, right.

On the other side Georgia has much smaller army, almost no navy and few aircraft in air force. Plus Georgia has not MONEY to pay or even MAINTAIN any advanced weapons. It whole budget is few times less than what Chavez bought recently...

Now this material + training is being used to re-unite Georgia though invasion of rebelling regions. I don't favor any side in their internal conflicts but this will certainly be used for a combat.

Anyway, Russian Foreign office has asked USA to avoid that help but State Secratary replied that USA will not consult in this issue which is internal to Georgian people. Now, US officials discuss inclusion of Georgia to NATO - a block which is considered hostile in by Russia..... I doubt anybody would ask their oppinion.

So both USA and Russia pay no attention to other part demands in these cases.

[Garry]

So much for the two together battling terrorism together. You would think Russia would know better then to arm some of the regimes that it does. And it just so happens they are the ones on the worlds stage these days. Now they just inflated Chavez's head ten fold. Yeah I can see us fighting terrorists together...NOT! They arm the worlds terrorists!They just created another Kim Jong in Venezuala thanks guys I hope we return the favor in kind.

He even said recently that he could imagine the Sukhoi jets firing missiles at a US aircraft carrier off Venezuela's main La Guaira port.

Good I hope he can also imagine a tac nuc being fired at his house as soon as it happens. And American troops walking into his country before they rip it to pieces. What an *******! And the Russians were assholes for selling it to him. Guess they need the money for that disheveled wreck they call a Navy.

Perhaps we should offer some new toys to Chechnya, Georgia etc, and so fourth and see just how much they like turnabout.

I also wish the U.S. would give Chavez exactly what he wants so badly go take his country rip it the **** out from underneath him and use the boy scouts to do it and really embarass him.

Look. USA is just getting back all the arogance it had for the last decade. It could have made Russia its best aly after former Soviet Union collapsed. Instead it treaded them like loosers and never respected any of their interests.

I guess it is too late now. USA really has little leverage on Russia, unless it threatens a BIG confrontation.

I see that Monro is still alive in you and your mind. So you may now understand better what Russians felt when USA sponsored president won in Georgia and start making Chavez like statements about Russia..... and now he is being invited to NATO.

In my view both Monro and Russian ambitions to its neighbours is just bull s**t. This is free world. Georgia, Ukraine, Venezuela, Iran are FREE countries which do not have any limitations from UN. It is what was called Imperialism what boils your emotions same imperialistic emotions in Moscow when they hear Georgian pet barking. ABSOLUTELLY SAME

[Dreadnought]

Look. USA is just getting back all the arogance it had for the last decade. It could have made Russia its best aly after former Soviet Union collapsed. Instead it treaded them like loosers and never respected any of their interests.

I guess it is too late now. USA really has little leverage on Russia, unless it threatens a BIG confrontation.

I see that Monro is still alive in you and your mind. So you may now understand better what Russians felt when USA sponsored president won in Georgia and start making Chavez like statements about Russia..... and now he is being invited to NATO.

In my view both Monro and Russian ambitions to its neighbours is just bull s**t. This is free world. Georgia, Ukraine, Venezuela, Iran are FREE countries which do not have any limitations from UN. It is what was called Imperialism what boils your emotions same imperialistic emotions in Moscow when they hear Georgian pet barking. ABSOLUTELLY SAME

Does Georgia threaten shooting missles at a nations capital ships?

Look. USA is just getting back all the arogance it had for the last decade.

Garry, The last decade has changed signifigantly since the outspread of world terrorism. Russia is taking a dangerous gamble arming these regimes and alot of innocents will pay the price that which Russia is stuffing its pockets with.

guess it is too late now. USA really has little leverage on Russia, unless it threatens a BIG confrontation.

Should they require leverage to reach a common goal through a BIG confrontation? Stopping these regimes from aquiring arms they have no need for but to threaten their neighbors with or the possible chance of somebody worse getting their hands on them or being supplied by them?

IMO judging by the recent 2 years Russia is fueling another arms race which is clearly demonstrated through Iran, North Korea, Syria etc. All which threaten their neighbors and in some cases more then just their neighbors.

I wonder how much of Hezbollahs weaponry was Russian manufactured. Care to take a guess? And you wonder why the U.S. decided to (veto) stand back and let Israel do what it needs to do to Hezbollah? Its not rocket science the majority of the arms in the middle east used by terrorists just happens to be Russian made by chance. Yes there are many other makes but Russian is the most frequent.

Youll have to excuse me Garry but sponsoring a incumbant for a presidency through demorcratic means and arming another idiot that provokes the U.S. are clearly two different issues. I just find it funny that last week they (Bush & Putin) say both will fight terrorism but yet make military deals to someone clearly into provoking the U.S. into confrontation. IMO the president should'nt even wait for him to take possesion of those weapons and go park a CV in his biggest port and call him out then well see just how much his mouth warrants. I promise you he wouldnt be in power long enough to open his mouth again before he gets a missle rammed down it. So how is it that Russia is arming these regimes (Iran, Syria, Lebannon, China and probably North Korea as well etc etc) and says it wants to fight terrorism? More like promote communism through terroristic means it seems. I think more clearly it wants to fight terrorism on its own soil and screw the rest of the world that dont agree with Russia and continue to load its pockets by arming the regimes that are causing whats been going on for the past few years. Call it Monro call it whatever but thats what its boiling down to IMO. How popular do you think Russia will be when these regimes fall and the world at large finds out where they're weapons technology and arsenals came from especially if it causes a catastrophy!

[tphuang]

Better yet why dont we stomp Hugo into the sand and give his new toys and AK''s to some of Russia's closest friends. ;)

Then we all benefit.....

1) Hugo pays the bill and STFU
2) Venezuala gets a new leader
3) U.S. dont have to hear his neanderings anymore about a preemptive attack.
4) Russia learns not to sell arms to idiots that provoke the U.S. with some of the statement used above like threatening a U.S. carrier.

See all good

I guess you already forgot about the entire Carmona coup incident?

[Dreadnought]

You mean this:

OPEC CHIEF WARNED CHAVEZ ABOUT COUP
by Greg Palast

BBC's Newsnight team



The Venezuelan president, Hugo Chavez, had advance warning of last month's coup attempt against him from the secretary general of OPEC, Ali Rodriguez, allowing him to prepare an extraordinary plan which saved both his government and his life, an investigation has revealed.

Mr Rodriguez, who is Venezuelan and a former leftwing guerrilla, telephoned Mr Chavez from the Vienna headquarters of the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries, of which Venezuela is an important member, several days before the attempted overthrow in April.

He said OPEC had learned that some Arab countries, later revealed to be Libya and Iraq, planned to call for a new oil embargo against the United States because of its support for Israel.

The OPEC chief warned Mr Chavez that the US would prod a long-simmering coup into action to break any embargo threat. It was likely to act on April 11, the day a general strike was due to start.

It was Venezuela which shattered the oil embargo of 1973 by replacing Arab oil with its own huge reserves.

The warning - revealed by a Newsnight investigation to be shown on BBC2 tonight - explains the swift and safe return of Mr Chavez to power within two days of his April 12 capture by military officers under the direction of the coup leader, Pedro Carmona.

Until now, it was unclear why Mr Carmona - who had declared himself president - and the military chiefs who backed the coup surrendered without firing a shot.

The answer to the mystery, Newsnight was told by a Chavez insider, is that several hundred pro-Chavez troops were hidden in secret corridors under Miraflores, the presidential palace.

Juan Barreto, a leader of Mr Chavez's party in the national assembly, was with Mr Chavez when he was under siege.
Mr Barreto said that Jose Baduel, chief of the paratroop division loyal to Mr Chavez, had waited until Mr Carmona was inside Miraflores.

Mr Baduel then phoned Mr Carmona to tell him that, with troops virtually under his chair, he was as much a hostage as Mr Chavez. He gave Mr Carmona 24 hours to return Mr Chavez alive.

Escape from Miraflores was impossible for Mr Carmona. The building was surrounded by hundreds of thousands of pro-Chavez demonstrators who, alerted by a sympathetic foreign affairs minister, had marched on it from the Ranchos, the poorest barrios.
Mr Chavez told Newsnight that, after receiving the warning from OPEC, he had hoped to stave off the coup entirely by issuing a statement to mollify the Bush adminstration. He pledged that Venezuela would neither join nor tolerate a renewed oil embargo.

But Mr Chavez had already incurred America's wrath by slashing Venezuelan oil output and rebuilding OPEC, causing oil prices to nearly double to over $20 a barrel.

His opponents had made it clear that they would not abide by OPEC production limits and would reverse his plan to double the royalties charged to foreign oil companies in Venezuela, principally the US petroleum giant Exxon-Mobil. The US government's panic over the calls for an oil embargo, made public by Iraq and Libya on April 8 and 9, also explains what Venezuelans see as the state department's ill-concealed and clumsy support for the coup attempt.

Mr Chavez told Newsnight: "I have written proof of the time of the entries and exits of two US military officers into the headquarters of the coup plotters - their names, whom they met with, what they said - proof on video and on still photographs."

Last month the Guardian reported a former US intelligence officer's claims that the US had been considering a coup to overthrow the Venezuelan president for nearly a year.


Yeah so whats your point? Note the words in bold. Then well address that issue as well.

[highsea]

...Instead USA has expanded NATO against any agreements with Gorbachev. And now it does expand it further.... where is the end of that expansion?

Well, you should be asking OOE these questions, he is probably the best one here to comment on that subject.

NATO expansion began with the reunification of Germany (an obvious by-product of that reunification) in 1990. It remained static for the next 9 years. The addition of Hungary, Czech Republic and Hungary came after several years of dialogue. Only after 9/11 did more eastern european countries look to join.

NATO is primarily a self-defense pact- the first military action in the organization's history was in 1994 in Bosnia, which helped to bring about an end to that conflict.

Garry, why do you think these countries are eager to join? Perhaps they don't trust in Russia's good intentions? Maybe they feel like thet received some pretty lousy treatment under Soviet rule? You say "USA expanded NATO"- you realize that any new member states requires a consensus, right?

You speak as if NATO is the bully, and Russia is just the poor victim. These countries obviously disagree with you.

For a decade Russian politicians were listening for all possible advice from Washington and expected a partners like relations.....

The West sent billions to Russia to cleanup the mess left over from Soviet nuclear weapons. Both countries made great progress on arms control, reduction of strategic weapons, etc.

During that same decade, US businesses were extremely excited and optimistic about Russia for investment opportunities and business partnerships, but the absolutely massive corruption in Russia made people afraid to take big risks. No banker was willing to underwrite new operations in such an unstable environment. During that ten years we all held our breath wondering when things would improve enough to make it safe, and it never did.

Do you know how long Russia has avoided any weapon trading with Iran against its economic interets?

No, but I know Iran is brimming with Russian weapons, and it's a blatant state sponsor of terrorism. Along with Libya, Syria, Cuba, and quite a few other pretty nasty players.

Chechens had support in Congress and even made meeting with state deparments until Beslan. It was only after invasion to Iraq when USA cooled down their relationships with Chechens..... here they take every contact like this very painfully - but nobody seemed to care in 1996-2002. Now the same goes with Georgia.... USA really OPPOSES interests of Russia on its neigbouring territories.

Chechens were listened to, but they were not supplied any weapons. USA believes in the right of every people, everywhere, to self-determination.

I really doubt Venezuelians would fight their neigbours. Chavez is a populistic politician and he has got lots of cash. So it is better to sell him more hardware before USA made some coup there and placed their candidate.

No matter how it destabilizes the region or harms Venezuelans, huh? Not your problem, I guess...

On the other side Georgia has much smaller army, almost no navy and few aircraft in air force. Plus Georgia has not MONEY to pay or even MAINTAIN any advanced weapons. It whole budget is few times less than what Chavez bought recently...

So the criteria is money only? If Georgia could pay it would be okay for the US to sell F-15's, or anything else we wanted as long as it wasn't WMD's? That's your position? Suppose we cut the price to a level they could aford?

Now this material + training is being used to re-unite Georgia though invasion of rebelling regions. I don't favor any side in their internal conflicts but this will certainly be used for a combat.

Combat against terrorists, sure. Is that a problem?

Anyway, Russian Foreign office has asked USA to avoid that help but State Secratary replied that USA will not consult in this issue which is internal to Georgian people. Now, US officials discuss inclusion of Georgia to NATO - a block which is considered hostile in by Russia..... I doubt anybody would ask their oppinion.

NATO officials, not US officials. BTW, why do you think NATO is hostile to Russia? Because they prevented the Soviet Union from overrunning Western Europe?

So both USA and Russia pay no attention to other part demands in these cases.

Pity.

At least the US is not busy arming the worst regimes in the world...