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Bill
23 Dec 03,, 00:55
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/1,13319,FL_armor_121903,00.html

Unit Awaits OK To Use Steel Armor
Associated Press
December 19, 2003


JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. - Fearing roadside bombs and sniper bullets, members of the Army Reserves' 428th Transportation Co. turned to a local steel fabricator to fashion extra armor for their 5-ton trucks and Humvees before beginning their journey to Iraq earlier this month.

But their armor might not make it into the war, because the soldiers didn't get Pentagon approval for their homemade protection.

The Army, which is still developing its own add-on armor kits for vehicles, doesn't typically allow any equipment that is not Army tested and approved, Maj. Gary Tallman, a Pentagon spokesman for Army weapons and technology issues, said Thursday.

"It's important that other units out there that are getting ready to mobilize understand that we are doing things" to protect them, Tallman said, "but there's policy you have to consider before you go out on your own and try to do something."

The possibility that soldiers could be denied extra protection because of an Army policy has outraged some of the friends and neighbors who tried to help the Missouri reserve unit.

"I think it's the stupidest thing I ever heard of," said Virgil Kirkweg, owner of Jefferson City steel company, which rushed to meet the reserve unit's armor request. "I just hope the government is not dumb enough to make them go out there without something that's going to protect them somewhat."

The 72 vehicles operated by the 428th Transportation Co. aren't designed for battle. They have thin metal floorboards and, in some cases, a canvas covering for doors. Iraqi guerrilla groups have been targeting all types of military vehicles with homemade bombs and small-caliber weapons.

E-mails from soldiers already deployed in Iraq urged the Missouri reservists to get extra armor if possible, said 1st Sgt. Tim Beydler of the Jefferson City-based transportation unit.

The soldiers got a local funeral home director active in community affairs to pay the roughly $4,000 tab for 13,000 pounds of one-quarter inch steel. Industrial Enterprises Inc. donated the fabricating work, valued at nearly another $4,000, so the steel could be fitted under vehicle floorboards and on the inside of doors.

The soldiers drove off in convoy Dec. 12 for Fort Riley, Kan., planning to fasten the specially made steel to their vehicles when they got to Iraq.

"We're doing what we can to protect our soldiers. That's the bottom line," Beydler said last week as news of the donated steel was being praised locally as an example of grass-roots support for the troops. "It not only boosts morale of the soldiers, but also of the soldiers' family members, who know their soldiers will be afforded some extra protection."

Fort Riley spokeswoman Deb Skidmore said Thursday that the Army reserve unit will be allowed to take their steel with them to Iraq, but she said Central Command will decide later whether the troops will be allowed to use it.

The Army's concern, Tallman said, is that unapproved steel-plating could somehow cripple the vehicles or cause them not to perform the way they were designed. For example, a Humvee armor kit recently tested at the Army's Aberdeen (Md.) Proving Ground was so heavy that it caused the vehicle to break, he said.

Tallman and spokesmen at several Army bases said they were unaware of any other units trying to craft their own armor before leaving for Iraq. But Tallman said the Army had discouraged several families of individual soldiers from trying to obtain their own bulletproof vests, citing the same reason for Army testing of equipment.

Kirkweg said the Missouri soldiers didn't have time to wait weeks, months or years for the Army to test and approve a steel-plating project that he could complete in three days.

"We thought this is a very important project here - we're talking about possibility of saving people's lives," he said. "So without hesitation we went ahead and proceeded with the thing."

Leader
23 Dec 03,, 01:51
"I think it's the stupidest thing I ever heard of,"

Agreed

ChrisF202
23 Dec 03,, 01:51
Thats insane, I cant belive that they come up with crap to deny them necessary protection

smilingassassin
23 Dec 03,, 12:50
Its a very similar thing to when in WW2 American tankers would add sandbags, boggy wheels boards and anything else the could plaster all over their tank to give it extra protection. the army frowned on that too. It's preaty bad when you have soldiers dies just days before Christmas and the top brass is pulling this crap.

Stinger
23 Dec 03,, 13:04
well its should be expected when the worst thing the Brass has to worry about are paper cuts.

bigross86
24 Dec 03,, 07:34
No, they have secrataries for that...

Officer of Engineers
26 Dec 03,, 20:28
In this case, the army got it right and someone should smake the coy CO in the head.

This ain't armour. It's just plain steel. M21 could tell you just effective it is against sniper round. Against roadside bombs? Better to have sandbags instead of steel. Sandbags asborbs the blast. At best, steel buckles and transfers the shock, meaning the human body. At worst, it becomes shrapnel.

Maintenance guys got no place doing the jobs of engrs. You want static protection. Ask an engr.

Bill
27 Dec 03,, 02:04
It is no doubt intended to stop Ak-47 rounds, which 1/4" steel will do with ease.

Officer of Engineers
27 Dec 03,, 02:26
The steel ain't the solution. It ain't protection and is in fact more dangerous than AK-47s. The best protection for such vehicles is a .50cal. Against the Iraqis and other non-dedicated forces (ie the Yugoslav paramilitaries), the best protection is to shoot back.

When 1 Bde first got our warning orders to get ready for Yugoslavia, we experimented with adding arm'd plating (real arm'd plating) to 1 Service Battalion's trucks. The result was an unbalanced vehicle that the drivers cannot take corners with any speed at all and braking distance almost doubled. Which made all the counter-ambush tactics suicidal.

About the only place you can protection is the floor and there again, sandbags is the better answer.

Bill
27 Dec 03,, 21:34
Im certainly not going to argue against arming the trucks...but 1/4" steel will stop an AK round with ease, which to me makes it about 4 trillion times better than a canvas door.

Officer of Engineers
28 Dec 03,, 20:24
That also ain't a solution. How do you mount the steel that won't impede mobility?

My entire problem with this is that everyone here makes it an end-all, be-all sol'n. It ain't and it raises far more problems than it solves. It may be a nice-to-have but most certainly, ain't a necessity.

The correct sol'n is training and bringing everybody back up to par on combat qualifications and that includes cleaning the weapons and getting the people qualified again. The officers and sr NCMs should be getting refresher courses on orientation. I don't know what's the equivelent in the US for the Service Battalion in Battle but that at the very least should be studied and memorized.

This entire thing sounds so ad-hoc to me that I agree with the USArmy. The steel should be left at home. Maybe if you've got some engrs who spent a couple of weeks coming up with a good sol'n and implemented them before the vehicles left base, then that's a different story. But it wasn't. This entire thing wasn't thought out and sounds like the spur of the moment. Absolutely no excuse when you had weeks to get ready.

And I really wonder where the sgts were in all of this. This sounds like an officer's fuck up. Every sgt knows that it's easier to ask for forgiveness instead of permission.

Bill
28 Dec 03,, 22:38
Well it seems to me that the 'fix' was pretty well thought out seeing as how all the money and labor was donated. It takes weeks at least to secure such things.

So to me, they probably did think it out pretty well.

No amount of training will stop a rifle round from ripping through a canvas door and smacking a trooper in the belly.

Simple 1/4" steel will.

Certainly, the roughly 500lbs of armor would cut into the vehicle's hauling payload....but it's a sacrifice that i would have no problem making to protect my troops from the majority of small arms fire.

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 03,, 00:17
Well, no, they didn't think it out, at least not with an engr's perspective.


the steel could be fitted under vehicle floorboards and on the inside of doors.

The floor boards are death traps. And you're better off hanging a couple of sandbags on the outside of the door.

Bill
29 Dec 03,, 01:25
Against an AP mine the 1/4" steel would be fine. Against an AT mine it would make the effect of the explosion worse.

Hanging sandbags on the doors(and putting them in the floorboards) would also work.

I'd be fine with that too....but apparently the troops aren't allowed or they'd already be doing it.

I might add that the sandbags would be almost as heavy as the 1/4" steel though.

Officer of Engineers
29 Dec 03,, 02:48
As my Sgt Maj keep telling me (and doing to me), it's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

When something works, it's damned hard to tell people to stop doing it.

Bill
29 Dec 03,, 08:47
Well, whatever they settle on, it is obvious that canvas is not a good ballistic medium, lol.

I hold no umbruge against a commander, nco, or em that does something to enhance his protection or combat effectiveness...so long as it's sensible.

Ironduke
18 Jan 04,, 02:16
Would titanium be viable as an armor?

I know it's about $5,000 per metric ton compared to $150 for steel.....

Say, 400 lbs. of titanium alloy on the body instead of steel. That would come out to about $1,000.

It weighs half as much as steel as well.

Praxus
18 Jan 04,, 02:23
So they want to test and see if extra steel armour is going to make it safer?

LOL, it's not rocket science. The more armour there is the harger it is for the people inside to get killed.

Officer of Engineers
18 Jan 04,, 03:54
Originally posted by Praxus
So they want to test and see if extra steel armour is going to make it safer?

LOL, it's not rocket science. The more armour there is the harger it is for the people inside to get killed.

But it's not armour. It's quarter inch steel.

Praxus
18 Jan 04,, 04:13
So you think 1/4 inch of steel won't do anything to help protect them?

Officer of Engineers
18 Jan 04,, 04:19
Originally posted by Praxus
So you think 1/4 inch of steel won't do anything to help protect them?

Read through the thread. Against 7.62AK, it's adequate. Against roadside bombs or AT mines, that quarter inch steel is a death trap, adding extra shrapnel to the blast. You have a somewhat better chance in trying to survive the over pressure than to be ripped to shreds.

troung
19 Jan 04,, 00:03
Indonesian troops in Aceh used armor plating on trucks they made themselves to protect the trucks from enemy fire from small arms.

Ironduke
19 Jan 04,, 00:11
How are Indonesian troops doing in Aceh?

troung
19 Jan 04,, 00:13
Oh yeah and the Philippine Marine Corps 6th Battalion keeps armor plates it uses to fit on to truck assigned to the Battalion in combat areas. They get a lot of "trigger time" and like having armor on the trucks to keep them safe from small arms fire.

troung
19 Jan 04,, 00:19
Well the TNI-AD (Army) is pulling the British made Scorpion tanks out of the area due to the UK complaining and replacing them with a domestic copy. Which could mean they copied the design :w00t .

Basicaly they are crushing the GAM which lacks much external support and the TNI-AD has cut of most of the media from the are controling much of the coverage. Refugess are reporting people have been vanishing after being last seen with the Army. So the TNI-AD are back to their old antics.

But being on the right side on the war on terror has it perks.

Ironduke
19 Jan 04,, 00:22
Troung, do you think that we may see in the future Indonesia get split up into a number of states?

troung
19 Jan 04,, 01:41
Doubt it. Indonesia has a very large and very brutal army, which has put down most rebellions in the country. Aceh will not get a chance to break away as the TNI-AD has to large a presence and Irian Jaya also will get crushed or a least make a status qou were the rebels would be slightly active but unable to do anything large.

Cutting off arm shipments from the UK and USA to them will not help the rebel cause is Indonesia is looking towards Russia more now. They are buying 44 more Flankers (Su-27SK/30MK) and more Mi-35E Hinds and also army and naval equipment. Plus I doubt the UK wants to lose the largest Hawk 200 user. Indonesia builds the FN-FNC 5.56mm assault rifle and Minimi 5.56mm light machine gun under license along with actually building its own transports (CN-235) and having licenses on the BO-105 and Super Puma. They want to buy more subs and surface warships and the subs could come from South Korea and the ships from Russia. They are branching away from American supplied weapons. Mind you there are people in the White House who want to sell them more F-16A/Bs.

Irian Jaya and Aceh lack external support and will never really get it. Plus factor in the economic loss if they lose these places along with the embarrassment. After losing East Timor the TNI-AD would not let that happen again.

FYI a TNI-AN warship was in East Timorese water less then a month ago and launched a BO-105 that fired a rocket at the shore. A warning about maritime negations.

I doubt Indonesia will break up.


A PMC armored truck from the 6th battalion in the Southern Philippines...

Ray
05 Feb 04,, 05:04
In Kashmir, the Indian Army uses locally fabricated steel plates below and on the side of vehicles as protection against bullets, grenades and IED (Improvised Explosive Device). They have proved successful.

I saw a vehicle blasted off by an IED at close quarter. There was no chance of survivors if one saw the effect of the blast. Yet, none died in that blast!

Blademaster
05 Feb 04,, 06:09
Was that vehicle called "Cassipo" I thought i heard a news bit of how IA was disappointed with them?

Ray
05 Feb 04,, 08:07
No. During the Kargil War they tried to blow a Caspir, but the tyres alone were damaged.

It wasanother incident.

Caspirs are pretty good against the known terrorist explosives and weapons.

2DREZQ
13 Mar 04,, 16:11
during the vietnam war our truckers were presented with the problem of inadequate protection and escorts for their supply convoys. The solution was typical American farm-boy engineering: The Gun Truck. 5-tonners had ad-hoc armour welded to their sides (sometimes entire APC bodies were used. It looked like they were breeding). The cargo floors were covered with extra ammo, and whatever heavy weapons could be stolen or put together from destroyed weapons were added. Some of the trucks had 3 or 4 M2's. Miniguns were rebuilt from crashed helos when possible. Nobody asked anybody for permission, they just did it.

When the convoys were attacked the cargo trucks were instructed to make a run for it, but the gun trucks (with their all volunteer crews) "rode to the sound of battle." The viet cong tended to target these trucks (letting the cargo trucks, which were the whole point of the convoy get away.) As you might expect, the attrition rate was high. Typically, these trucks sported names that typified the age of the men and the era: "Eve of Destruction" was typical. She was driven to the dockside at the end of our involvement in vietnam and loaded (according to apocryphal story) ,still armed, onto a ship for return to the U.S.That particular truck is in the U.S. Army Trnsport museum now, the last example of her kind.

2DREZQ
13 Mar 04,, 20:48
I'm going to post more on the guns trucks in another thread elsewhere.

Bill
15 Mar 04,, 17:50
Gun trucks are cool. ;)

tw-acs
23 Apr 04,, 23:19
Gun trucks deployed in IRAQ have plywood armor. Why hasn't the steel sitting at the docks not been cut for armoring US GUN TRUCKS. The design I believe is two sheets of 3/8" steel placed 8 inches apart. This design has been talked about and talked about but the US GUN TRUCKS still have plywood for armor.

I do not know if this is the best design for Infanty Truck Armor, it was the design discussed last night on Cspan 2. Senators were asking government officials why our troops have plywood for armor.

I ask persons on this forum, how can the US military send its troops to war with insufficent armor?

Is this unnecessary risk?

2DREZQ
05 May 04,, 06:17
Mild steel isn't armour, that much is a certainty. On the other hand, armour plate isn't that hard to come up with.

Screw the HUMMVEE's, gun jeeps weren't that good in VN, gun TRUCKS were.

Ray
05 May 04,, 07:34
It is time to wake up that one is not in his childhood fantasy of playing with tin soldiers.

This for real. Men are dying. And for no worthwhile cause!

Praxus
05 May 04,, 23:50
What do you consider a "worthwhile cause"?

Somolia, Vietnam, and Bosnia were not Worthwhile causes, there is no possible self-interest in getting involved in thoose conflicts.

It is however in our self-interest to institute a Economicly Capitalist Middle Eastern Republic in Iraq. By doing so we secure massive oil reserves and we introduce the right ideas to a region that have given birth to so many wrong ones.

Officer of Engineers
06 May 04,, 02:13
What do you consider a "worthwhile cause"?

Somolia, Vietnam, and Bosnia were not Worthwhile causes, there is no possible self-interest in getting involved in thoose conflicts.

Somalia - New World Order - It was time the US backed up its words.

Vietnam - Take a look at the 4 Tigers lately? Couldn't have happenned without the deteremined security, proven by the VN War.

Bosnia - Take your pick. Greater Germany, Greater Russia, or Greater Islam.

tw-acs
06 May 04,, 15:54
It is however in our self-interest to institute a Economicly Capitalist Middle Eastern Republic in Iraq. By doing so we secure massive oil reserves and we introduce the right ideas to a region that have given birth to so many wrong ones. - Praxus

Petroluem has been rivaled with vegetable seed oil fuels ever since Rudolph Diesel invented the "diesel" engine.

I think it would be a much better strategy to use plants as the main source of energy. . President George W. Bush has expressed that the USA is energy dependent, we are hooked on foriegn oil.

If we used the US military's #1 preferred fuel hemp and diversifying the energy crop with soy and many other crops the USA's energy dependence on foriegn oil would be reduced. This would be a very strategic move in nearly every respect of the USA. If you can find anyway it would be bad, please explain.

The middle east region is birthplace of christianity. Are you saying these are bad ideas (Christian beliefs) ?

Please explain.

Leader
07 May 04,, 01:32
President George W. Bush has expressed that the USA is energy dependent, we are hooked on foriegn oil.


To my knowledge, President Bush has never stated that. If you could provide any proof to back that statement up (maybe a quote) that would be nice. :)

Confed999
07 May 04,, 01:49
Somalia - New World Order - It was time the US backed up its words.

Vietnam - Take a look at the 4 Tigers lately? Couldn't have happenned without the deteremined security, proven by the VN War.

Bosnia - Take your pick. Greater Germany, Greater Russia, or Greater Islam.
Mind elaborating a little?

IMHO all of those were worthwhile causes. It's allways worthwhile to try to help people, though I usually disagree with how it's done.

Praxus
07 May 04,, 02:19
T-Wacs: What you want requires the Government to coerce people into both producing and buying plant derived feuls. If someone figured out how to make it significantly cheaper then Petruleum then that person can go right ahead, start up a company and sell cheaper feul.

OOE: How does Taiwan, Hongkong, South Korea, and Singapore have to do with Vietnam?

Officer of Engineers
07 May 04,, 02:40
Somalia - This was just right after the Kuwait War and the world was looking to the US as the Leader of the highly touted New World Order. With CNN hyping the next famine in Somalia, especially when the world did nothing in Ethiopia, the honour of the US was at stake, after hyping so much about the New World Order and taking much deserved kudos for leadership in the Kuwait War, not going into Somalia was not an option.

Vietnam - While much of the attention was on Vietnam, materials and even troops came from the 4 Tigers. Much more than that, American determination in Vietnam gave the 4 Tigers strongmen to crack down on their communist insurgents and with American support.

Bosnia - The Civil War was between the Croats, the Serbs, and the Muslims and their backers were Germany, Russia, and Islam respectively.

Confed999
07 May 04,, 04:52
Thanks Officer of Engineers.

tw-acs
07 May 04,, 06:48
Praxus

Simply I want the DEA to stop regulating hemp as if it were a controlled substance.

A person cannot start up a company in the USA and do so because of the DEA.

Ironduke
07 May 04,, 12:28
How did this turn into a discussion about hemp??

Praxus
07 May 04,, 22:13
Simply I want the DEA to stop regulating hemp as if it were a controlled substance.

A person cannot start up a company in the USA and do so because of the DEA.

I agree, in fact I have stated it several times. But my point is that it is unrealistic to believe that it can completly replace petruleum without forcing people to pay for the higher prices associated with the feul from the paticular plant.

OOE thanks for the info.

Confed999
07 May 04,, 22:45
replace petruleum
Have you seen this company before, http://www.changingworldtech.com/home.html ?

For every ton of turkey slop that goes in, what comes out at the end are 640 pounds of clean-burning oils that are sold for use in fuels and manufacturing, 100 pounds of propane, butane and methane gases that are burned at the factory site to generate the electricity that powers the garbage-to-fuel process, and 60 pounds of solid minerals that are sold as fertilizer. Because each type of raw material -- tires, plastics or sewage, for example -- produces different grades and quantities of oil and gas, the company prefers to limit the process to one kind of garbage at a time.
http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2004/Changing-World-Technologies4apr04.htm

tw-acs
10 May 04,, 21:46
It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum.

I do not think I have said otherwise. However, I have said that when the petroleum is gone.

Vegetable oil fuels will be used.

I am trying to raise awarenesss to allow for a more gradual and thus a less stressful transition.

Leader
11 May 04,, 00:15
It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum. It will not replace petroleum.

I do not think I have said otherwise. However, I have said that when the petroleum is gone.

Vegetable oil fuels will be used.

I am trying to raise awarenesss to allow for a more gradual and thus a less stressful transition.

Instead of trying to "raise awareness," why don't you go and buy a vegetable car and drive it. Then you can tell us how it works.

tw-acs
11 May 04,, 00:51
Buy a diesel, in fact I am in the process of doing so.

It will work great, with 90% cleaner emissions and near twice mileage with no loss of power.

Charris Ford of colorado has an International Scout truck that runs on recycled cooking grease.

Russel Gerky has a Dodge Ram 3500 that runs on soy fuel. He drove it across the country during Drive to Survive 2002(Alternative fuel).

Go ask your military buffs what they think of hemp fuel.

It is the preferred fuel because in the event that the US military cannot use petroleum, the US military will use Hemp fuel to power the US war machine.

Think about it. Strategy

2DREZQ
11 May 04,, 17:10
Me on the web (http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor4.html)

I drove a diesel van, round trip, about 3000 miles to see my son graduate Air Force basic training. It was powered 100% by my own homemade Biodiesel, except for one stop in OK (overestimated my mileage, underestimated the distance). I'm a big fan of BD. But as to double the mileage? Sorry, that's BS. BD has about 10% LESS BTU's than #2 diesel, and the mileage runs slightly poorer.

As to price, well my fuel costs me 60-75 cents per gallon. Commercial BD runs about a buck higher than #2. HOWEVER, if we didn't have to spend money keeping the peace in the middle east, and subsidized BD with the difference, BD would be CHEAPER than #2.

Chuck

Bill
11 May 04,, 19:55
"T-Wacs: What you want requires the Government to coerce people into both producing and buying plant derived feuls. If someone figured out how to make it significantly cheaper then Petruleum then that person can go right ahead, start up a company and sell cheaper feul."

They did. The oil companies bought all the patents and promptly buried them to protect their monopoly.

Bill
11 May 04,, 19:56
A turbine engine will run on ANYTHING, even hairspray.

tw-acs
12 May 04,, 23:47
M21Sniper-

Hairspray is more volatile than vegetable oil. Its good for potato guns. Ask Ironman we shot an onion at his neighbors house by accident. Fun shit.

The DEA makes industrial hemp production illegal. They group hemp with marijuana; two very different things.

2DREZQ

The near twice the gas mileage is specific to soy fuel methinks.

Leader
13 May 04,, 02:57
we shot an onion at his neighbors house by accident. Fun shit.

They group hemp with marijuana; two very different things.

Were you trying to discover the difference when you were shooting the potato gun? :biggrin:

tw-acs
13 May 04,, 22:44
No we used the onion munition because we did not have any potatoes.

Ray
14 May 04,, 00:38
tw acs

In our Army we had a multi fuel truck known as the Shakitman, sold by the MAN Germany.

Use of vegetable oil was not cost productive and the efficiency dropped drastically.

However, the idea is novel if feasible. Currently, I wonder if it is feasible from the efficiency point of view.

To cut pollution in the cities, all public transport has been converted to run on CNG.