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Shek
31 May 06,, 22:09
From whom does the US most draw its character and government from? Athens? Sparta? Rome? I've set the poll up so you aren't limited to only one city/empire.

HistoricalDavid
31 May 06,, 22:23
I take it this is confined exclusively to the classical world, otherwise I'm guessing Britain would feature, just a tad. :)

In terms of government, it obviously and quite explicitly (according to the founders) draws upon Roman republicanism rather than the democratic city-states of Greece.

"... democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths." - James Madison in Federalist #10

But in terms of philosophical tradition it's hard to beat Greece and the Big Three of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, a maxim applicable throughout the West.

Since I believe politics to be the most important intellectual activity, my vote goes to Rome.

TopHatter
31 May 06,, 22:25
Voted Rome.

Not sure if that's Rome pre-Caesars or not. :biggrin:

RustyBattleship
01 Jun 06,, 05:34
I don't think any of those Mediterranean city-states fit. I think our character is drawn more from central and northern Europe using some of the Greek and Roman language structure as part of our language in order to give a greater variety of words along with Anglo-Saxon.

Our own Constitution is actually based upon British Common Law that literally outmoded the Roman emperor concept (keeping it only as a society of uppity-ups passing out knighthoods).

Trivia note: British Common Law was agreed to and signed by King John who became king when his adventurous brother Richard the Lion Heart died. Yup. The same guy while as Prince John chased Robin the Hood and his merry men in forest green camo.

indianguy4u
01 Jun 06,, 06:18
Where is Paris? Staute of Liberty ;) French gift for US.

Parihaka
01 Jun 06,, 06:48
I've got to vote Athens. I agree that the country functions politically on a Roman model, but the city-state model of ancient Greece I equate to the separate states of the Union.

PubFather
01 Jun 06,, 17:38
The city-state model of ancient Greece isnt really analogous to the state structure in the USA. The city states were fully independant and fought each other - I dont really see the parallel...

RustyBattleship
02 Jun 06,, 07:13
Where is Paris? Staute of Liberty ;) French gift for US.
Paris is in Southern California -- whoops, that's Perris, California where they have a great Railroad Museum. I'm not sure of the target coordinates of the one in France.

A short model of the Statue of Liberty AND a full size statue of Abraham Lincoln are in London, England near Trafalgar Square.

The full size Statue of Liberty is on Liberty Island in the mouth of the Hudson River in New York. One night the magician, David Copperfield, made the entire statue disappear.

Now you know why magicians always wear coats with long, large sleeves.

Shek
02 Jun 06,, 17:04
I don't think any of those Mediterranean city-states fit. I think our character is drawn more from central and northern Europe using some of the Greek and Roman language structure as part of our language in order to give a greater variety of words along with Anglo-Saxon.

Our own Constitution is actually based upon British Common Law that literally outmoded the Roman emperor concept (keeping it only as a society of uppity-ups passing out knighthoods).

Trivia note: British Common Law was agreed to and signed by King John who became king when his adventurous brother Richard the Lion Heart died. Yup. The same guy while as Prince John chased Robin the Hood and his merry men in forest green camo.

But the structure of the government defined by the Constitution can be traced back to Rome and for that matter, Sparta.

Shek
02 Jun 06,, 17:05
For our character, I would say that our inspiration is defined by the spirit of Athenian exceptionalism.

Lunatock
02 Jun 06,, 19:45
Paris is in Southern California -- whoops, that's Perris, California where they have a great Railroad Museum. I'm not sure of the target coordinates of the one in France.


It's called the city of lights. So factor in the greatest concentration of french waving white flags in the most well lit area.

Trajan
02 Jun 06,, 20:11
Using the Athenians as a template is dangerous. Their system of democracy, while admirable, was susceptible to demogogues. If one man could sway the majority into agreeing with him and vote to his ideas, that one man could control policies as well as exercise a type of dictatorship. I stab a finger at Pericles and Draco to point out examples.

At the very least the Roman Republic (less confusing to use this term as just saying Rome will mostly refer to the Imperial period) had a system of checks and balances which were the first and our own system was loosely based on this system.

A very long drawn out way of saying that I voted Roman.

Parihaka
03 Jun 06,, 05:31
You are infact an amalgum of the two. Your character is Athenian, your political bonds that unite you are Roman. While that unity is important, I regard your character as the more important long term, hence my vote for Athens. In evidence I would point to the strong assertion of libertarianism evident on this board and other boards of both right and left which I read. I believe that to be closer akin to Athenianism than the authoritarianism of the Romanesque.

ArmchairGeneral
03 Jun 06,, 14:34
You are infact an amalgum of the two. Your character is Athenian, your political bonds that unite you are Roman. While that unity is important, I regard your character as the more important long term, hence my vote for Athens. In evidence I would point to the strong assertion of libertarianism evident on this board and other boards of both right and left which I read. I believe that to be closer akin to Athenianism than the authoritarianism of the Romanesque.
That's odd. I was about to assert almost the exact opposite. That is, I think that our character, as a nation, is more closely related to that of the Roman farmer/soldier than the Athenian farmer/soldier. Kind of tough, practical, less of an idealist, but does have ideals. Although our system is explicitly based on the Roman system, e.g. the "Senate," the Romans were never exactly democratic, although they were edging towards it when the chaos began. On the other hand, although the Athenian system was very limited (was it something like 10-20% could actually vote?), the democratic ideals of the nations gov't/philosophers seems more in line with our nation's founding fathers' goals of true, but limited suffrage. As far as character goes, it seems like the Athenians, as people, were very different from Americans in their attitude. The disdain for hard work, the contempt for women, and the very stratified society, with a small number of citizens, plus women, plus lots of non-citizens and slaves just seems to not jive with the American style. Not that the Romans didn't have a stratified society, but the plebians did eventually get a say in the gov't, and they still were citizens, unlike the vast majority of people in Athens.

In other words, Rome had a lot of ordinary citizens, Athens didn't, Romans said they believed in some sort of democracy, the Athenians actually worked it out. Funny thing is, I think character is most important too, that's why I voted for Rome. :biggrin:

That said, when it comes down to it, I agree with RustyBattleship. Britain's gov't, legal system, and philosophers played a far large role than the Classics.

deadkenny
03 Jun 06,, 20:40
On balance I'll go with Rome, although Athens does figure into as well. Don't see much Spartan influence, Sparta would seem to be antithetical if anything.

Parihaka
13 Jun 06,, 06:13
That's odd. I was about to assert almost the exact opposite. .
That's the difference between the observer and the observed I guess ;)

sparten
13 Jun 06,, 12:36
You guys are going to hate me for saying this, but its none of the three (except maybe Rome), but rather the Perisan Empire.
That empire was in many ways like the US, it was a multitude of differnt nationalities, which became one under Cyrus, a pluralistic, and tolerant nation. And like the US it was the most powerful nation of its time as well as the most influential. That is something the US is like since at leats 1900.

Rome ruled from Britain to Arabia, and well they inluenced everyone they ruled as well as many more.

If Athens and Sparta might be a good theory for US Heritage but the practice is that of the Persians. Lets see Athenian "democracy" was limited to just a few, Sparta was a military state which at its height had 25000 citizens, and 250,000 slaves.
And that, is not a bad thing, there was much more to the Persians than the Persian War

Triple C
14 Jun 06,, 20:32
I vote Rome. The founding fathers of the US preferred a Republic to a Democracy, and a big nation over a conglomerate of small city-states. They (at least the Virginian FFs) also drew heavily on the lessons of Rome for the constitution of the state.

gunnut
14 Jun 06,, 23:02
I voted for both Athens and Rome. Athens for the idea of democracy and Rome for the conquering and building nature.

beansprout
27 Feb 08,, 08:45
Rome. Since The U.S & the romans tried to spread its influence towards many nations.

svs
27 Feb 08,, 20:50
I vote Israel. The Bible and Judeo-Christian ethics have had more influence on the American character than anything created by the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Etruscans, Celts, or Mongols.

lwarmonger
29 Feb 08,, 12:13
I vote Israel. The Bible and Judeo-Christian ethics have had more influence on the American character than anything created by the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Etruscans, Celts, or Mongols.

Well, if it is similarities you are looking for we are far more like Rome than we have ever been like Hebrew Judea (if that is the Israel you are talking about). While we do have a Judeo-Christian culture, our society doesn't really resemble previous Christian societies either... I'd say Republican Rome is the closest to what the US is today.

Cactus
29 Feb 08,, 16:15
From whom does the US most draw its character and government from? Athens? Sparta? Rome? I've set the poll up so you aren't limited to only one city/empire.

The American Heritage, I agree with Rusty, is more from North and West Europe than any of the Southern Med cultures. The "Roman" character of the government comes to American government from a period of heightened Neo-Classical interest in Western Europe in past couple of centuries. That said, it is also true that Imperial Age Roman heritage was imprinted on the North and Western Europeans quite well. The Roman Catholic Church also kept alive some of the Roman heritage and infused the NW Europeans with it until the Protestant Schism. In someways the Northern cold has preserved some Roman virtues quite well. The Classical Greek heritage, OTOH, comes to most Americans only with deliberate and conscious effort.

Shek
29 Feb 08,, 16:24
The American Heritage, I agree with Rusty, is more from North and West Europe than any of the Southern Med cultures. The "Roman" character of the government comes to American government from a period of heightened Neo-Classical interest in Western Europe in past couple of centuries. That said, it is also true that Imperial Age Roman heritage was imprinted on the North and Western Europeans quite well. The Roman Catholic Church also kept alive some of the Roman heritage and infused the NW Europeans with it until the Protestant Schism. In someways the Northern cold has preserved some Roman virtues quite well. The Classical Greek heritage, OTOH, comes to most Americans only with deliberate and conscious effort.

Cactus,

There was a huge Greek Revival in the mid-1800's that greatly influenced the US and its character. If you look at Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, it draws its heritage from Athens, and it is the Gettysburg Address (the Civil War was a necessary, but not sufficient condition) that shaped the American psyche to think of the union as the United states as opposed to the united States.

Additionally, the self-concept of American exceptionalism draws its roots directly from Athens, and an American cannot help but feel connected to the exceptional character of Athens as they read Thucydides' history of the Pelopponesian War.

I'd argue that the Athenian character may require a conscious effort to recognize, but that it is essentially an integral trait of Americans.

S2
29 Feb 08,, 19:59
The Arm-Sparta

The Heart- Athens

The Brain- Rome

I voted for three. Our mutated and exponential growth as a nation feeds the expansion of these historical lineages. They struggle among one another. They disconsonately merge. Occasionally, they synergize immense displays of orchestrated power- economic, military, diplomatic.

There resides a heart which debates with itself and seeks moral balance, recognizing that America will never be completely so...

Cactus
29 Feb 08,, 21:05
Cactus,

There was a huge Greek Revival in the mid-1800's that greatly influenced the US and its character. If you look at Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, it draws its heritage from Athens, and it is the Gettysburg Address (the Civil War was a necessary, but not sufficient condition) that shaped the American psyche to think of the union as the United states as opposed to the united States.

Additionally, the self-concept of American exceptionalism draws its roots directly from Athens, and an American cannot help but feel connected to the exceptional character of Athens as they read Thucydides' history of the Pelopponesian War.

I'd argue that the Athenian character may require a conscious effort to recognize, but that it is essentially an integral trait of Americans.

Shek,

The Neo-Classical movement that has been running for past few centuries has made both Greek and Roman impressions on the American government.

Your argument for the Greeks has its obvious advantages - the Greek civilization is older and better situated for generating culture. The argument for the Romans also has its advantages - it was better situated to influence the Western Culture and it is explicitly evoked much earlier in the annals of American republic.


George Washington as Modern Cincinnatus, "Cato", the absolutist Roman approach to war ("Unconditional Surrender"), Grachii-like approach of the New Deal... just some randomly choosen major milestones in American history where the decision makers explicitly drew inspiration from Roman ideals of virtue and duty.

However neither alone, nor both together, match up to the overwhelming influence exerted by the Northern and Western Europeans on the "American Culture". First and foremost there is the language - English - which is not just a tool for communication, but also the designboard for advanced thought. If your designboard does not have some components (Greek/Latin components), there is no way thoughts dependent upon it can be developed - at best a shoddy fascimilie can be laboriously constructed; conversely if your language has components that others don't you can think thoughts others cannot. Below that there are plenty of other smaller but more obviously apparent cultural manifestations... (a Greco-Roman style building, a wittengemot style legislature etc, etc.).

PS: Incidentally a loooong time ago I had written a high-school "Current Events" report on a WaPo article comparing US Theater Commanders to old Roman Pro-Consuls. I don't remember what exactly I had written, but I do remember the article: American Pro-Consuls: US Theater Commanders (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/world/issues/cinc/) October of 2000. Gawd, it was such a different time! {I don't think it is available for viewing unless you have a WaPo account with archives viewing privilege}.

svs
29 Feb 08,, 22:43
Well, while some of the educated founders could read Latin and Greek, everybody had a Bible and I would say the the Bible is the major source for the ethical basis of American society. Truth to tell our republic is really all that much like that of Rome with its Patrician classes or Athens with its infighting, ostracons, and helots. Although Judea and Isreal were monarchies there was much less of a class structure other than the religious classes of priests and Levites than in the Roman Republic. We clearly owe the Greeks a debt with regard to their science, art and philosophy, and the Romans for their engineering and societal structures, but I think ignoring the contributions of the ancient Israelis would be as foolish as ignoring the contributions of the Greeks and Romans.

zraver
01 Mar 08,, 05:43
Rome/Athens, our system of government, disdain for barbarian cultures and the right of conquest. However like Rome and the wider Hellenic world we made strangers into ourselves. The Gauls became more Roman than the Romans, and we made the descendants of Rome as American as apple pie.

clackers
29 Mar 08,, 02:33
That said, when it comes down to it, I agree with RustyBattleship. Britain's gov't, legal system, and philosophers played a far large role than the Classics.

Yes, ArmchairGeneral, it's possible to push analogies too far. The Roman Senate and the US Senate don't really resemble each other. The Greek appearance of early 19th century public buildings and Southern mansions was more about looking at an alternative to Georgian England for architectural models after the Revolution.

You could say that north-western European traditions of Protestant Christianity (Germany, Scandinavia and Britain) and Enlightenment philosophy (France and Britain) had a bigger impact on the early USA than ancient history ... as far as individual cities goes maybe Amsterdam is closer!

Merovee
11 Apr 08,, 02:42
I would agree with Clackers but add that many of the immigrants and citizens of the States had their own political agenda, just as today, so had different bases of power, and that the Protestant fiber did run deep among the citizenry who might have accepted a more theocratic government, just as much as Enlightenment ran deep among many of the founding fathers who were opposed to theocracy and wanted a separation of church and state.

Definitely though the form of government became a republic and the only functioning republic in Europe was of course Holland which eventually served as a model. I would further add that the true source of power and authority was ultimately the bankers whose model was based on the Hanseatic League and again Holland.

hongi
12 Nov 08,, 21:01
I vote Israel. The Bible and Judeo-Christian ethics have had more influence on the American character than anything created by the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Etruscans, Celts, or Mongols.Man, this annoys me to no end. I hear it constantly that America is founded on Judeo-Christian ethics, but as a very interested person in Judaism myself, no one has defined what Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity share that lies at the foundation of America.

GraniteForge
13 Nov 08,, 05:39
I voted Rome and Athens, but the survey left out one more important influence: the Dutch New Netherlands. Russell Shorto argues pretty convincingly in his book The Island at the Center of the World: The Epic Story of Dutch Manhattan and the Forgotten Colony that Shaped America that our more pluralistic and egalitarian ideas, including that of the nation being an immigrant "melting pot," come directly from the Dutch based in and around New Amsterdam.

That being said, its clear that the Founding Fathers themselves consciously drew upon Classical Rome and Greece, especially Athens. This is reflected in the recurring theme of Cincinnatus, illustrated both in the naming of Cincinnati, Ohio, and the continuing existence of the Society of the Cincinnati.

pate
13 Nov 08,, 07:50
Rome. I think the Romans tended to incorporate into their culture & government the ideas, technologies and even to some degree religions from the other nations, people and cultures that they contacted and/or conquered. Sparta and Athens, I think, looked at other cultures as alien and resisted anything 'non-Greek' as barbaric. The Romans also did this but over time would adopt/adapt what they found useful and incorporated it into their society, military, or religion. Greek political theory (post Greco conquest, brought in by enslaved Greek scholars), the Gladius Hispanius (the main weapon of the Roman legionaire/centurian, and instrumental in the fighting style of the Roman unit which itself was an adaptation of the Greek phalanx...) and one needs only look at the Jupiter/Zeus, Eros/Aphrodite et al. "Greco-Roman" pantheon to have an idea of how they could assimilate another culture into their own. It's a tenuous connection at best, but the idea of America the melting pot seems best mirrored out of the three in Rome.

Albany Rifles
13 Nov 08,, 17:25
I am still trying to figure out how from those three great civilizations, we ended up with this!

GraniteForge
14 Nov 08,, 03:37
Rome. I think the Romans tended to incorporate into their culture & government the ideas, technologies and even to some degree religions from the other nations, people and cultures that they contacted and/or conquered. Sparta and Athens, I think, looked at other cultures as alien and resisted anything 'non-Greek' as barbaric. The Romans also did this but over time would adopt/adapt what they found useful and incorporated it into their society, military, or religion. Greek political theory (post Greco conquest, brought in by enslaved Greek scholars), the Gladius Hispanius (the main weapon of the Roman legionaire/centurian, and instrumental in the fighting style of the Roman unit which itself was an adaptation of the Greek phalanx...) and one needs only look at the Jupiter/Zeus, Eros/Aphrodite et al. "Greco-Roman" pantheon to have an idea of how they could assimilate another culture into their own. It's a tenuous connection at best, but the idea of America the melting pot seems best mirrored out of the three in Rome.

A better religious illustration of your point would be the cult of Mithras. Originally a Persian religion, it became very popular among, and was widely spread by, the legionaries. Some of the attributes of Mithras showed up in the later Jesus.

Ahriman
14 Nov 08,, 13:58
Man, this annoys me to no end. I hear it constantly that America is founded on Judeo-Christian ethics, but as a very interested person in Judaism myself, no one has defined what Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity share that lies at the foundation of America.


Yeah, it got me confused for a bit.

Btw my vote is more on Rome because we have the idea of a Republic instead of a direct Democracy.

RustyBattleship
15 Nov 08,, 03:39
Man, this annoys me to no end. I hear it constantly that America is founded on Judeo-Christian ethics, but as a very interested person in Judaism myself, no one has defined what Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity share that lies at the foundation of America.

Basically it is the belief of one God and the general following of the ten commandments. Though translations and interpretations may vary, they are basically the same "Old Testament" with only the Christians adding the "New Testament". The New Testament devotes most of its testimony to Jesus Christ (born Joshua bar Joseph) as the Son of God (or a direct entity). The Jews admit he existed and dropped his title of a Jewish Rabbi and created Christianity. They just don't believe he was the son of God but his teachings merit consideration.

The founding fathers of this country included both Christians and Jews and recognized the right for a person to believe in a religion of his choice, thus becoming the first amendment to our Constitution.

pate
15 Nov 08,, 06:05
A better religious illustration of your point would be the cult of Mithras. Originally a Persian religion, it became very popular among, and was widely spread by, the legionaries. Some of the attributes of Mithras showed up in the later Jesus.

Thank you, I knew this but forgot (or was too lazy to google it... excuse, excuse, equivocation, excuse...)

pate
15 Nov 08,, 06:07
I am still trying to figure out how from those three great civilizations, we ended up with this!

Just simple barbarians, pay them no heed!:biggrin:

GraniteForge
19 Nov 08,, 00:41
Thank you, I knew this but forgot (or was too lazy to google it... excuse, excuse, equivocation, excuse...)

You're welcome.

hongi
20 Nov 08,, 04:03
Basically it is the belief of one God and the general following of the ten commandments. Though translations and interpretations may vary, they are basically the same "Old Testament" with only the Christians adding the "New Testament". The New Testament devotes most of its testimony to Jesus Christ (born Joshua bar Joseph) as the Son of God (or a direct entity). Where is this enshrined in the Constitution? How is a belief in the one God (which I don't believe Judaism and Christianity share, what with the Trinity being heretical to Jewish belief) at the foundation of the United States of America?


The Jews admit he existed and dropped his title of a Jewish Rabbi and created Christianity. They just don't believe he was the son of God but his teachings merit consideration.Actually, no. Most Jews I've met don't believe his teachings merit much, or any consideration. A significant minority don't believe he existed and those that do believe he existed, think that he took much of his teachings directly from other Jewish teachers, so he didn't really teach anything new (aside from claims to Godhood).


The founding fathers of this country included both Christians and Jews and recognized the right for a person to believe in a religion of his choice, thus becoming the first amendment to our Constitution.Freedom of religion however is not a Christian, or a Jewish belief. It's not exclusively Judeo-Christian, and the Founding Fathers didn't draw on a long tradition of 'Christ said that the government should not support one religion over another'.

Ironduke
23 Dec 08,, 11:16
From whom does the US most draw its character and government from? Athens? Sparta? Rome? I've set the poll up so you aren't limited to only one city/empire.
Shek, as far as government is concerned, I'm going to cite Book One of Machiavelli's The Discourses, "Of the Various Kinds of States and of What Kind the Roman Republic Was." Machiavelli describes the government of the Roman Republic as having the elements of the three forms of "good government", which he describes as monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy. The consuls, Senate, and tribunes/Plebeian Council of the Roman Republic to me seem to parallel the Presidency, Senate, and House of Representatives in the US government.

And when it happened that her kings lost their power for the reasons and in the ways described earlier, nonetheless those who drove them out, having immediately established two consuls in place of the king, drove out only the title of king and not royal power; so that, as there were in that republic the consuls and the senate, it came to be formed by only two of the three above-mentioned elements, that is, the principality and the aristocrats.

There remained only to make a place for the democratic part of the government. When the Roman nobility became insolent, for the reasons that will be listed below, the people rose up against them; in order not to lose everything, the nobility was forced to concede to the people their own share; and on the other hand, the senate and the consuls retained enough authority so that they could maintain their rank in that republic. And thus there came about the creation of the tribunes of the plebeians, after which the government of the republic became more stable, since each of the three elements of government had its share. And Fortune was so favorable to Rome that even though she passed from a government by kings and aristocrats to one by the people, through those same steps and because of those same reasons which were discussed above, nevertheless the kingly authority was never entirely abolished to give authority to the aristocrats, nor was the authority of the aristocrats diminished completely to give it to the people; but since these elements remained mixed, Rome was a perfect state; and this perfection was produced through the friction between the plebeians and the senate, as the two following chapters will demonstrate at greater length.

pate
30 Dec 08,, 09:43
I think that means he votes for Rome...:)

Timur
10 Oct 09,, 20:28
American heritage is firstly and above all Germanic!Germanic means ;anglo-saxons,Franks,germans,dutch,swedes,norwegians et etc and also peoples of the latin race.

These are the main ruling body of America,except the latins who really iperhaps equal in numbers!

What is American today? İf I migrate today to America,I am also an American!Tahat ı would be proud of!,in such a case!

When one talks about America or United states,it is not ethnicity but rather a group of diffferent ethnicities combined which make up a nation!

However,the first founders are Germanic,of course!Later there were migrations of other ethnicities!..

Regards

Timur

Gun Grape
11 Oct 09,, 16:52
Opening 10 month old threads kills kittens.

Die kitty die

Plus a little necro cosplay

Ironduke
11 Oct 09,, 21:41
American heritage is firstly and above all Germanic!Germanic means ;anglo-saxons,Franks,germans,dutch,swedes,norwegians et etc and also peoples of the latin race.

These are the main ruling body of America,except the latins who really iperhaps equal in numbers!

What is American today? İf I migrate today to America,I am also an American!Tahat ı would be proud of!,in such a case!

When one talks about America or United states,it is not ethnicity but rather a group of diffferent ethnicities combined which make up a nation!

However,the first founders are Germanic,of course!Later there were migrations of other ethnicities!..

Regards

Timur
You seem to be very obsessed with race.

Mihais
12 Oct 09,, 06:33
I think he uses the term ''race'' in one of its old meanings-peoples,ethnicity...

Btw,nobody on Earth is more obsessed about ''race''(in its modern meaning) than Americans.

Mihais out (of the minefield)

zraver
12 Oct 09,, 14:19
I think he uses the term ''race'' in one of its old meanings-peoples,ethnicity...

Btw,nobody on Earth is more obsessed about ''race''(in its modern meaning) than Americans.

Mihais out (of the minefield)

You should not have stepped in.

Japan, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Gulf Arabs and many many others have racial views that make most Americans disciples of Dr. King. Oh wait, most Americans are disciples of Dr. King in one form or another. The only place where race is really an issue is a small minority of the rural south and mountain west as well as the Urban Ghetto from the opposite side. Most Americans don't give a F'ck about race. Now immigration status is another issue, but that is less tied to race that some would like others to believe.

Timur
12 Oct 09,, 14:43
You seem to be very obsessed with race.


Actually I hate rascism!But since races exist,I only stated facts!As far as racism is concerned ,I do not think you could beat European nations.Both rascism and nationalism are two idealogies that emerged in Europe,not in Asia.

Regards,

Timur

Officer of Engineers
12 Oct 09,, 14:46
For a guy named Timur, you sure ignored China, the Central Kingdom, and their views towards the barbarians. How about Japan not giving Koreans citizenship even though they were 4th generation decendents of slave labourers brought over by Japan herself?

No one is clean but to state that Europe alone is ugly means you haven't looked in the mirror lately.

Timur
12 Oct 09,, 14:57
For a guy named Timur, you sure ignored China, the Central Kingdom, and their views towards the barbarians. How about Japan not giving Koreans citizenship even though they were 4th generation decendents of slave labourers brought over by Japan herself?

No one is clean but to state that Europe alone is ugly means you haven't looked in the mirror lately.


I need to repeat gain hat rascism and nationalism first emerged in Europe.Having said that I have nothing against Europe or Europeans.

Now,pls tell me what views did the Chinese hold towards ''barbarians''?

And this statement of yours''you havent looked in the mirror lately'' .Do you mean to talk about Turkey's kurdish problem,be a little bit more open,so that I can comment.Remember that I am a foreigner and can not speak /understand English as much as most here.

Regards,

Timur

Timur
12 Oct 09,, 15:02
One thing.I agree that noone is clean.

Regards,

Timur

Officer of Engineers
12 Oct 09,, 16:18
Now,pls tell me what views did the Chinese hold towards ''barbarians''?Chinese history is repeated with extermination campaigns against those who were not Han and even Han against Han when they were not the proper kingdoms. The tales of the Three Kingdoms are ones of bloodshed and genocide.


And this statement of yours''you havent looked in the mirror lately'' .What did Timur do to Istanbul and Afghanistan?

Timur
12 Oct 09,, 16:54
Chinese history is repeated with extermination campaigns against those who were not Han and even Han against Han when they were not the proper kingdoms. The tales of the Three Kingdoms are ones of bloodshed and genocide.

What did Timur do to Istanbul and Afghanistan?


What did Timur do to İstanbul?Tell me!I bet you know it wrong?You will talk about the 2 Turks in a battle field.

I guess you try to mention Timur against Yildirim bayezid.Tell me more about that!

Are you one those that consider Timur as so-called Mongol?

Even Genghis by birth not 100% mongol.

Regards,

Timur

Officer of Engineers
12 Oct 09,, 17:56
What did Timur do to İstanbul?Tell me!I bet you know it wrong?You will talk about the 2 Turks in a battle field.Does it change the fact that every man, woman, child, dog was put to the sword on the basis that they were not Timur's people?


Even Genghis by birth not 100% mongol.You tell him that.

Officer of Engineers
12 Oct 09,, 18:14
Are you one those that consider Timur as so-called Mongol?

Even Genghis by birth not 100% mongol.I've seen enough. You're a bloody racist. The Turks are the greatest people on earth, better than anyone else and what they do to each other is not racism, not in the least.

Don't want your kind here.

Big K
13 Oct 09,, 02:38
from these 3 options i would choose Rome.

but i think basic American Character is based on the rebellion of individuals against a powerful authority.

i think todays American Character is most likely reflects this issue.

Ironduke
14 Oct 09,, 21:00
I need to repeat gain hat rascism and nationalism first emerged in Europe.Having said that I have nothing against Europe or Europeans.

Now,pls tell me what views did the Chinese hold towards ''barbarians''?

And this statement of yours''you havent looked in the mirror lately'' .Do you mean to talk about Turkey's kurdish problem,be a little bit more open,so that I can comment.Remember that I am a foreigner and can not speak /understand English as much as most here.

Regards,

Timur
Racism and ideas that one's own people are superior to others are as old as mankind. For example, Indonesia used to be exclusively populated by people of the type that today live in Papua New Guinea. What happened to them?

In India the beginnings of the caste system have their basis in skin color. Fair skinned conquerors = high caste, dark skinned natives = low caste.

The Chinese for centuries thought they were superior to all else and existed on a plane between heaven and earth. They didn't get that idea from Marco Polo.

Bushmen once populated half of Africa. Today they are about relatively as common as natives in the US. What happened to them? The Bantus.

IIRC, the colloquial Arabic term for a black person translates as "slave". Black slavery was a practice that was actually picked up by Europeans from Arabs.

Every culture in the world has racial and ethnic slurs, and had them before they even heard of Europeans.

For thousands of years entire peoples (distinct in culture, language, and appearance) have been put to the sword on that basis.

If you think all this stuff originated with Europeans, you're either ignorant, delusional, or both. And it seems like both.

Oscar
15 Oct 09,, 10:47
Very good post Ironduke.

Lots of morons like this one on the five continents.

Rastagir
15 Oct 09,, 10:57
I would vote for Rome.

S2
15 Oct 09,, 14:38
Our heritage is rather topical and subject to rapid change. Sorta like dry skin that flakes off. Gone and irrelevant.

That's what's cool about us. Nothing sticks too terribly long.

These days we look to Disneyland for our legacy.

Oh! And Elvis...

...and MTV.;)

Albany Rifles
17 Oct 09,, 02:10
Then this would be NORTH American culture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!