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Ironduke
18 Dec 03,, 22:50
Czechs turn down US fighter jets

The Czech government has decided to begin negotiations over the lease of 14 Anglo-Swedish Gripen fighter planes to replace their old Soviet-built MiG-21s.

This is the second time the Czechs have chosen to go for the Gripen, with an option to return them after five years, in preference to American-made F-16s.

The Gripens are relatively cheap and technologically up-to-date, without being excessively sophisticated.

The Americans were offering F-16s, but only an older version from the 1980s.

Last year, the Czech government cancelled a plan to buy Gripen fighters, claiming it could no longer afford the cost after that summer's serious floods.

The idea now is to lease 14 aircraft, but Wednesday's decision is not a firm commitment - only a decision to begin negotiations.

Even so, the opposition defence spokesman, Petr Necas, is talking of a "hasty decision". Not much sense of urgency, then.

As the local Lidove Noviny newspaper put it: "This country will not be directly threatened anyway in the next 15 to 20 years".

Polish deal

Some observers point out that with over 3,000 machines in total, Nato, which the Czechs joined four years ago, is hardly short of warplanes.

They ask whether countries like the Czech Republic should be busying themselves with new aircraft, when most officers still cannot communicate effectively in English - Nato's language of command.

On the other hand, modern warplanes are a status symbol and a sign that the Central European military are freeing themselves of reliance on Soviet-designed hardware.

Hungary also opted to lease 14 Gripens two years ago. It won an attractive "off-set" package, whereby all of the aircraft's costs will be spent on technology transfers and other projects to boost Hungarian industry.

Earlier this year, Poland, the largest of the Central European states, decided to buy 48 American F-16 fighters in a deal worth $3.5bn.

The decision went down badly in France, which had been promoting its own Mirage fighter plane.

Economical

It was seen as another example of Poland's pro-American orientation.

The American government is granting a $3.8bn loan - while American companies, including the F-16's manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, have pledged to invest more than $6bn in Poland over the next decade.

It is said that the Polish F-16s will be the latest prototype version.

The big question mark hangs over the issue of running costs.

According to the Czechs, the Gripen promises to be much more economical in the longer term.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3331889.stm

TopHatter
25 Dec 03,, 17:18
It is said that the Polish F-16s will be the latest prototype version

Anybody have an idea on what this means in terms of actual hardware? Are these Polish F-16s more advanced than the USAF -16s?
Anybody have any figures on the current production rate of the -16 and if the USAF is still buying them? I would imagine they are, if only to replace attrition.

Ironduke
25 Dec 03,, 19:40
Originally posted by TopHatter
Anybody have an idea on what this means in terms of actual hardware? Are these Polish F-16s more advanced than the USAF -16s?
Anybody have any figures on the current production rate of the -16 and if the USAF is still buying them? I would imagine they are, if only to replace attrition.
Almost all F-16s we've been offering overseas lately that are new, not used, are more advanced that what we currently have, I believe.

TopHatter
25 Dec 03,, 19:53
Is nobody thinking about possible technology-transfer problems? Not that I mind the Poles having advanced F-16s, far from it. They are a loyal US ally and deserve the best.

Ironduke
25 Dec 03,, 20:00
Originally posted by TopHatter
Is nobody thinking about possible technology-transfer problems? Not that I mind the Poles having advanced F-16s, far from it. They are a loyal US ally and deserve the best.
I'm not worried about the Poles, I'd be more worried about Arab countries we supply.

TopHatter
25 Dec 03,, 20:19
Well, let's face it. Most of these Middle East countries don't properly maintain their hi-tech Western-supplied equipment, let alone train properly with it.

Ironduke
18 Jan 04,, 03:02
I'm not so much worried how Arab countries in the future may use the weapons we sell them, but who they may give the tech to.

TopHatter
18 Jan 04,, 16:17
You are very correct about that. I should have mentioned that :doh!

Ironduke
18 Jan 04,, 22:20
Anyway, it would be nice if the Czechs bought a couple squadrons of JSF's...

TopHatter
19 Jan 04,, 02:36
Sure it would nice, but could they afford to maintain them?
Well, that's a silly question since the US would probably subsidize the whole friggin deal, along with a nice juicy support and parts package.

Ironduke
19 Jan 04,, 02:43
The JSF is supposed to be a very low maintenance aircraft.

TopHatter
19 Jan 04,, 02:46
You could be right at that, but don't certain parts have to be eventually replaced outright?

Ironduke
19 Jan 04,, 02:49
Certainly.

One of the advantages of the JSF though is that many of it's parts are already in production for other US fighter jets. :)

TopHatter
19 Jan 04,, 03:00
Really? Most US planes are the very flower of late 1970s and early 1980s design. So many of the computer chips in them are so far obsolete and expensive (I know, I've had to track them down for purchase!) that I would think the last thing you want in a JSF is alot of commonality with venerable systems like the Eagle and the Falcon.

Ironduke
19 Jan 04,, 03:09
Originally posted by TopHatter
Really? Most US planes are the very flower of late 1970s and early 1980s design. So many of the computer chips in them are so far obsolete and expensive (I know, I've had to track them down for purchase!) that I would think the last thing you want in a JSF is alot of commonality with venerable systems like the Eagle and the Falcon.
I can't recall offhand what exactly the parts being used in the JSF that are the same as other US fighter jets, but I do know one off the top of my head, I believe the wheels are the same as the ones used on the F-14.

TopHatter
19 Jan 04,, 03:13
Well that's probably alot better than those 20-year old Raytheon and Texas Instruments computer chips that I have to track down on a daily basis.

Ironduke
19 Jan 04,, 03:14
I don't think that any of the high-technology parts on the JSF are going to be old stuff.

TopHatter
19 Jan 04,, 03:17
I didnt really think so, but then I couldnt figure what you could really have in common vis a vis a JSF/F-15 -16 -14 etc

Ironduke
19 Jan 04,, 03:20
Originally posted by TopHatter
I didnt really think so, but then I couldnt figure what you could really have in common vis a vis a JSF/F-15 -16 -14 etc
Just the really mundane stuff. Which, incidentally I believe is going to be the stuff that has to be replaced the most often.

Praxus
19 Jan 04,, 03:40
The JSF is using off the shelf Computer stuff if I am not mistaken, where as the F/A-22 has two very opsolite and expsensive Cray "Super" Computers.

TopHatter
19 Jan 04,, 03:45
Really? From what I've heard they are quite advanced, though obviously "quite advanced" from 2-3 years ago is now "obsolete" today.

Praxus
19 Jan 04,, 03:49
Damn I really spelled that wrong:D

I blame everyone but myself!

bodybag
11 Jul 04,, 21:13
poles are bit pissed of ,on this whole 6 billion investmet package which so far has not materialized.Many poles think they should go for grippen instead of f-16.

Hang10
09 Sep 04,, 15:10
I can't recall offhand what exactly the parts being used in the JSF that are the same as other US fighter jets, but I do know one off the top of my head, I believe the wheels are the same as the ones used on the F-14.

I have good intel that much of the main landing gear hardware is not off the shelf but an altogether new design. The main mounts/wheels (on the tech demonstrators only) are simular in design to the S-3 and Legacy F/A-18 but not even close in design to the F-14.

Hang10
09 Sep 04,, 15:11
I can't recall offhand what exactly the parts being used in the JSF that are the same as other US fighter jets, but I do know one off the top of my head, I believe the wheels are the same as the ones used on the F-14.

I have good intel that much of the main landing gear hardware is not off the shelf but an altogether new design. The main mounts/wheels (on the tech demonstrators only) are simular in design to the S-3 and Legacy F/A-18 but not to the F-14.

visioninthedark
10 Sep 04,, 00:56
The JSF is using off the shelf Computer stuff if I am not mistaken, where as the F/A-22 has two very opsolite and expsensive Cray "Super" Computers.

two cray super computers .... F/A-22 has TWO of these .... ??!?!?!??!?!!!


well ... lemme give you an idea what a cray super computer is ...


http://www.mssu.edu/seg-vm/pict0541.html

Description:

This Supercomputer was first installed in February 1984 at Phillips Petroleum Co. It had 16 megabytes of main memory and 8 I/O channels. The CPU speed was 240 million floating point operations per second. The machine cycle time was 11 nanoseconds. It was freon cooled and weighed approximately 5 tons due to the circuitry mounted on copper plates.


so, you're saying the F/A-22 has two of thes antiques installed on board ... ???

ohh well .... it takes all kinds ... http://www.pakistanidefenceforum.com/style_emoticons/PDFEmotionIconsv10/wacko.gif