Pla Ssm

[xinhui]

Col,

As I recall, you speak number of times regarding PLA's SSM. I think I got this one down, but need some clarifications.

none nuke SSM, Can it be manned in regiment format instead of bgd? As you know there is one long range arty regt per GA and MR, It will could save bunch money by replacing the old long range MRL with DF families as with that of 31 Group army, Nanjing MR. What type of effort from organzational POV does it take to Increase coy battlaion from 4 launchers to that of 6? There are long rumors of PLA (not 2nd arty) is doing just that.

I got bunch of emails from "senior members" regarding the latest DF-15 photos, and there were suggestions they are for naval use, but all the ex photos I saw, they are being train in Xinjing/Mongonlia, not Jinan/Nanjing. What is your take?

By the way, I am finishing my last shot of the Johnny walk blue before going to sleep.

[Officer of Engineers]

Col,

As I recall, you speak number of times regarding PLA's SSM. I think I got this one down, but need some clarifications.

none nuke SSM, Can it be manned in regiment format instead of bgd? As you know there is one long range arty regt per GA and MR, It will could save bunch money by replacing the old long range MRL with DF families as with that of 31 Group army, Nanjing MR. What type of effort from organzational POV does it take to Increase coy battlaion from 4 launchers to that of 6? There are long rumors of PLA (not 2nd arty) is doing just that.

I got bunch of emails from "senior members" regarding the latest DF-15 photos, and there were suggestions they are for naval use, but all the ex photos I saw, they are being train in Xinjing/Mongonlia, not Jinan/Nanjing. What is your take?

By the way, I am finishing my last shot of the Johnny walk blue before going to sleep.

Hello Andy,

Nice to see a familiar name. Please do check out Shek's posts. He's an officer who's now teaching at Westpoint and returned from Iraq. A proud new Major and a proud new father.

I have a problem with the regard to Naval Use. These are still Land Force organizations (ie, Army or the 2ArtyForce). I still cannot imagine SSMs to be used against moving targets. Also, I've not seen any new fuses that have been tested for water impact. Air fuses are almost useless against naval targets. I also question the probability of a good kill. Obviously, the PLAN would want a carrier but more than likely, they'll get a picket ship. Hardly a good enough target for such a waste of a missile salvo.

Also, do remember when did we discover this changeover which is less than 3 years ago. So, take 6 years ago maximum that this decision to use conventional based salvo system. And this is the 1st set of exercise pictures we've saw (maybe they finally saved up enough money for a real live fire exercise). So obviously, they would concentrate on working out the bugs on land force criteria 1st.

The move from 4 to 6 launchers is somewhat mystifying. 4 was the old nuke based number. I, however, don't see why you would need more than 5. Six is overkill.

Let me bring in a gunner (Gun Grape) and a FOO (M21Sniper) on this. He might have a better take. Andy, I'm going to steal a few CDF pics just to help clarify the situation.

[Officer of Engineers]

Gunny and M21,

Could you guys look over these two photos and see why one would move from a 4 launcher battery to a 6 launcher battery for a salvo launch on a single target?

[Officer of Engineers]

Oh, Andy,

As for bde vs regt format. Do recall that the PLA is moving away from the regt-div-army model to the bn-bde-corps model. I can see staying regt if the firepower of a regt but the bde model offers the ability to shift a battery to a Motor Inf Bde.

[Bill]

Shooting at moving naval targets with SSMs strikes me as a total waste of time. Even with CBU type munitions they'd have to get real lucky.

As for the 4 vs 6 SSM battery, i'm not sure exactly what it is you want to know. Are you asking if i prefer a six launcher battery, or if i can justify one?

I can tell you that the US Army uses 3 SPLL per MLRS battery.

IMO, you'd group your SPLLs into a size that represents what you feel to be up to the task for it's envisioned role. IOW, if the missiles primary job is to perform counter-battery, i would group my launchers into batteries that could each take out one enemy battery per fire mission.

OR you can organize batterys based on your supply capabilities(Ie if one platoon of supply troops can tote 5 missile reloads to the front in one trip you'd use 5 SPLL per battery.

Beyond that battery size is really kind of arbitrary. I suspect most nations simply use six gun/SPLL batteries out of tradition.

[Officer of Engineers]

As for the 4 vs 6 SSM battery, i'm not sure exactly what it is you want to know. Are you asking if i prefer a six launcher battery, or if i can justify one?

Well, I was asking if anything jumps out at you. One thing about PLA watching, if you don't know the answer, you just pile up the clues until the answer becomes apparent. If nothing else, you've added to the clues. That is always helpful. Thank you, my friend.

[Bill]

Well, I was asking if anything jumps out at you. One thing about PLA watching, if you don't know the answer, you just pile up the clues until the answer becomes apparent. If nothing else, you've added to the clues. That is always helpful. Thank you, my friend.

No problem.

[xinhui]

4 vs 6.

some background: During the 1998 re-org carried out by Military head of the CMC, General Cao, 2nd arty were to transfer all none nuke SSM to the army.

no one really don't know what happened inside of the Aug 1st building meeting room, but 2nd arty managed to keep some of its turf. The old head of General Political Department was JZM's closest supporter and was head of the 2nd arty before his promotion before got prompted into CMC/General political dept. He had no interest in seeing 2nd arty lose influence. General Liang (head of the General Staff department) got his wish of a single SSM brigade within Nanjing MR. I really don't see the army will gain anymore 2nd arty SSM as of 16th party congress, 2nd arty places one of its own inside of the CMC. ]

So, now, PLA has two organizations with SSM, the ground force and the 2nd Arty. Ground force prefers 6 missiles per battalion, because they want to add more missiles with out rising additional units and it falls under their traditional TOE of *x3 for long range rockets. Good luck for any PLA ground troops trying to call 2nd arty for tactical fire support.




As for bde vs regt format

Col, here is the problem. The Nanjing MR SSM bgd is not for tactical supports, they have a very specify role to play. Currently all the upper echo fire support from GA and above are regiment based. if they would enlarge the GA arty regt to a brigade, well, GA already have a arty bgd and GA commander does not have authority over ML's assets. so, we are talking about coy-btn-bgd-ga-wzc right? so I want to see how does a tactical support long range SSM fits in this picture. If we take DF family out of this, the WS-1 and 2 family are found only at ML level! Not at GA.

[Officer of Engineers]

Andy,

4 x 6

With regard to salvo launches, as I said, I could imagine 5. You could do it with 4 but six is overkill. This might work with a complete brigade or regt in that you have one mission left after the initial salvo at the battery level. If you goto 6 per battery, in theory, you might have 2 missions of 3 per salvo but I am uncomfortable with 3 accomplishing the mission. Now, the problem with 1 or 2 remaining missiles per battery is the co-ordination. The batteries would be widespread and the launch solutions varrying between them. So, as M21Sniper said, the mission requirements are somewhat mystifying.

I was never under the impression that these were even corps asset (a SSM?) but CMC assets. Most certainly, these cannot be danger close support. In fact, the fact that 2Arty retains some of these most suggestively point to me that these were strategic assets; assigned the role of "shock and awe." Do recall the openning day of the Iraq War in which we saw Baghdad lit up in flames.

2nd, I didn't see gunners rising up in ranks to take command of the fomer 2Arty batteries. They retain their old bosses, just put on an Army cap badge instead of 2Arty. This tells me strongly that they retain their targetting thinking outlook. They don't think tactical nor army. They think strategic, deep strike.

The NJ MR SSM regt. Actually, this fits within the context I've stated above. Taiwan is a target rich environment and that 100 miles of water pretty well defines deep strike.

[Gun Grape]

Gunny and M21,
Could you guys look over these two photos and see why one would move from a 4 launcher battery to a 6 launcher battery for a salvo launch on a single target?

Two reasons stand out.

The first being standard doctrine from the Conventional side. Use to 6 per battery and do not have to develop new TTPs. They also don't have to increase the Log tail.
3 batteries of 4 launchers require 3 command elements, 3 Liason teams,3 survey teams, 3 ammo trains, ect.

2 batteries of 6 launchers allows you to cut out one extra command and support group.


The second reason is accuracy. M21 was close to being right. Each MLRS platoon has 3 launchers. For about the first 10 years, a MLRS battery consisted of 3 platoons of 3 launchers. Due to increased accuracy in survey,
round lethality, and the way we process RoF it was reduced to 6 lanuncher batteries.

This is what I'm betting with the Chinese. It is a late 70s era rocket that had a CEP of around 350 meters. Various reports have mentioned improved guidance and a reduction of the CEP. I've seen articles that state 15 meters but I would bet
more like 100-150 meters. Not sure of what type of warhead it has, or the casualty area of the warhead. If the SOP was 4 rounds against an area target when the CEP was 350 meters I could achieve the same effect on target with 2-3 rockets per target now.

If I keep 6 launchers per battery, and in the same surveyed firing position I can either shoot 1, 3 rd mission and have another 3 rds for another target or to refire the same target quickly. I could also fire a 6 round mission on the target for better results (Neutralize vice suppress).

Maybe the PLA are learning something about fire support. But after seeing pictures of howitzers on barges in another post, they have a long way to go. :)

[Bill]

Yep 3 per platoon.

[xinhui]

some offical PR


"Blue army" invigorates training of missile units on training ground

PLA Daily 2006-06-07

　　 　　On May 16, the reporters learnt from the related departments of the Second Artillery Force that after years of gradual build-up and constant improvement, the information-based "blue army" of the Chinese strategic missile force has now taken shape. The emergence of this well-equipped "blue army" with flexible and diverse fighting tactics on the military training ground has brought about a series of profound changes to the training concepts, means and methods of the missile units.

　　This information-based "blue army" has been built up in order to meet the needs of integrated actual-troop exercise of the strategic missile force. Along with the acceleration of the informationization drive of the PLA, the "blue army" has gradually picked up the task of simulating the future information-based battlefield, in which it is to carry out various operational tasks, such as launching precision strikes, and carrying out reconnaissance and surveillance, and electronic jamming against the "red army". Through comprehensive application of various countermeasures, the "blue army" can carry out simulated confrontation drills with the "red army" under close-to-real-combat conditions, and through such drills, the overall fighting capacity of the missile units can be put to test and enhanced.

　　By Wang Yongxiao and Zhang Xianqiu

　　(June 7, PLA Daily)

[xinhui]

Yesterday, both commander and political commissar of 2nd artillery OpEd an article in the first issue of “seek truth” magazine (I am trying to get my hands on a copy right now) they stated, under the order from Hu, 2nd artillery is to “integrate” with all service of the armed force. 2nd arty does have a great deal of media coverage lately, very unusual

Professional journals such as seek truth has very limited circulation, well see.

[Officer of Engineers]

I really can't see how the AF and Navy can use them.

[xinhui]

anti airfield /port role?