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View Full Version : Another JF-17 test flight, Pak Air Chief Marshal as Chief Guest.



Asim Aquil
11 May 06,, 10:36
http://www.paktribune.com/images/newsimages/2006/05/tanvir-in-jf17-cockpit.jpg
KAMRA: Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed flashes victory signs sitting in the cockpit of Prototype-4 of JF-17 aircraft.

ISLAMABAD: The fourth Prototype (PT-4) of JF-17 ’Thunder’ aircraft, jointly produced by China and Pakistan, on Wednesday successfully completed its inaugural flight in Chengdu, China.

Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed was the chief guest on the occasion.

Other members of the CAS high profile delegation included Air Marshal Rahat Hussain Khan CPD JF-17 and various high ranking officials of PAF and the MOD. The Chinese side was represented by Vice ministers of CONSTING, Presidents of Aviation Industries Corporation-1 (AVIC-1), CATIC, Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (CADI), Chengdu Aircraft manufacturing Center (CAC) and other high ranking officials.

Speaking at the occasion, the Air Chief congratulated all members of Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute, Chengdu Aircraft Corporation and PAF contingent deployed at milestones achieved for the JF-17 programme so far. He termed that the success of the joint programme as one of the most successful programmes in the recent aviation history.

PT-4 of JF-17 is exclusively developed for avionics and weapons qualification flight testing phase. The advanced 4th generation avionics package of JF-17 aircraft integrates data from multiple sensors using weapons and mission computers and has the ability to evade and degrade the enemy’s sensors using onboard advanced electronic warfare suite.

It would greatly enhance the lethality and survivability of JF-17 aircraft. The advanced man-machine interface helps in presenting the sensors information in an integrated and effective manner, reducing the pilots work load and improving the combat efficiency.

The aircraft is powered by a reliable RD-93 engine, which is equipped with Digital Electronic Engine Control (DEEC) system. High trust to weight ratio and hybrid flight control provide enhance agility and maneuverability in all flight regimes.

JF-17 has a strong night and day surface attack capability including the delivery of PGMs. Its air to air capability includes all aspect Short Range as well as Beyond Visual Rang (BVR) missiles by utilizing Multimode Pulse Doppler Radar.

Addressing the gathering on the occasion, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force said, "the Avionics and weapon qualification flight testing phase on PT-4 would optimize its mission capability aspects in different flight regimes and condition. The finalization of this phase will herald a new era of serial production of aircraft in China and Pakistan."

The first batch of operation JF-17 aircraft would arrive in Pakistan in early 2007 while serial production in Pakistan at PAC, Kamra would start in 2008.

http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=143355

ASG
11 May 06,, 14:33
Pakistan doesn't have a BVR missile in its A2A arsenal yet. JF17 has the capability to use one just like the PAF's F-16s. But where are they going to get these missiles from.
Chinese prolly?[/FONT]

Asim Aquil
11 May 06,, 14:37
Probably.

Asim Aquil
11 May 06,, 15:13
I want to see some Pakistani pilots testing the new prototype out now.

Srirangan
11 May 06,, 15:55
OMG the fourth test!!

Asim Aquil
11 May 06,, 17:00
2nd right?

Neo
11 May 06,, 17:01
2nd right?
Yep, second testflight of the modified prototype 04.

Asim Aquil
12 May 06,, 09:52
http://www.pakistantimes.net/2006/05/12/top6.htm


Pakistan to receive first batch of JF-17 thunder aircraft next Year
By Maria A Khan 'Pakistan Times' Special Correspondent

CHENGDU (China): The Pakistan Air Force will receive the delivery of first batch of JF-17 thunder aircraft sometime next year, Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed said.

Talking to media here Wednesday after the success of first maiden operational test flight of PT-4 aircraft, he said the Air Force plans to induct more than 100 Fighters (JF-17) Thunders, jointly produced by China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra.

Lauding the efficient performance of the prototype-4 aircraft, he said it will be equipped will 'state-of-the-art' avionics, radar and weapons integration systems. Small batch production of the single-seat, single-engine JF-17, will begin in China next month.

Pakistan and China had been negotiating with different companies inviting them to buy the avionics package for the JF-17 aircraft. It would be economic model. The Air Chief said there is no aircraft in the world which has such good value for money.

The exact price cannot be determined at this stage, but he said he was sure the aircraft will be almost nearly half of the price of any other fighter aircraft. And capability-wise, it would be better than some of the most modern aircraft in the world.

Answering a question, he said, " We are confident that many Air Forces in the world will prefer to buy it, when it will go on mass production."

About PT-4 combat aircraft, he said the project is a important milestone in development of aircraft industry in the two countries. It carried the new and modified airframe. Minor changes we might have to do after testing the aircraft, he said adding “ Now we have final shape of JF-17 (thunder) and it is hoped that this particular aircraft will get into production."

Commenting on the depth of Sino-Pak relationship, he said it proved time-tested over the years in various sectors, including the Defence production sector. “ These relationships are based on mutual trust, faith and friendship. JF-17 programme has provided a big incentive to this relationship.

He hoped that collaboration between the two countries enjoy would give more strength to their aviation industry. “ We are discussing some other projects with our Chinese counterparts."

The success of the JF-17 thunder joint programme will usher a new era of strategic partnership between the two friendly countries in the aviation sector. He termed the success of the PT-4 maiden flight a big achievement in the aviation history in the recent years.

He noted that trial flight has laid a solid foundation of further cooperation between the two countries to meet future challenges.●

ASG
12 May 06,, 10:19
Probably.

Even the PLAAF's BVR arsenal seems to be pathetic.

The longest ranged A2A missile in PLAAF inventory is AA-11 Archer with a maximum range of 40KMs, depending on the version.

PAF's reason for buying these jets is to counter the IAF, which has AA-10 missile with a range of upto 130 KMs.

IAF it seems, will still remain ahead of PAF & PLAAF in BVR arena.

Asim Aquil
12 May 06,, 10:21
Even the PLAAF's BVR arsenal seems to be pathetic.

The longest ranged A2A missile in PLAAF inventory is AA-11 Archer with a maximum range of 40KMs, depending on the version.

PAF's reason for buying these jets is to counter the IAF, which has AA-10 missile with a range of upto 130 KMs.

IAF it seems, will still remain ahead of PAF & PLAAF in BVR arena.
There's another missile that they're saying would be used... Perhaps Plat can give you its name.

I don't know all military stuff by heart, I just keep track of the overall picture.

Asim Aquil
12 May 06,, 10:21
Aah google says its: SD-10.

Is it right?

ASG
12 May 06,, 10:31
Aah google says its: SD-10.

Is it right?

Partially. But the development programme status for SD-10/PL-12 missile is unknown. Hence it would be difficult to state about whether it is functional in the PLAAF or not.

Max range is stated to be around 70 KMs.

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/weapon/pl12.asp
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/pl-12.htm

ajaybhutani
13 May 06,, 23:36
Pakistan doesn't have a BVR missile in its A2A arsenal yet. JF17 has the capability to use one just like the PAF's F-16s. But where are they going to get these missiles from.
Chinese prolly?[/FONT]
the last i knew PAF didnt have BVR capability whatsoever.. even if the PAF-f16 can fire bvr missiles.. the americans didnt give them bvr missiles to use..
but i am equally amazed to know that Jf17 can use only one.. can u please give the source of this info.. a lot of this will depend on the capability of the radar... i.e. if it can handle only one we should know which radar will be used..

Chineese SD10 isnt ready yet.. and with the secrecy chineese keep with their defence programs i dont think we will know this soon....of course russian source is closed due to indian hands.. the only direction they can see is to US.. and they definitely wont get source codes to integrate US missiles into JF17.. ( if they are getting AMRAAM.. at all)..

Samudra
14 May 06,, 05:35
SD-10 is not operational.


Pakistan to receive first batch of JF-17 thunder aircraft next Year

So what engine is going to power these aircrafts?
Russian or Chinese?

If its Chinese, is the engine operational?

Asim Aquil
14 May 06,, 09:03
Has the RD-93 been denied officially to Pakistan?

ASG
14 May 06,, 09:23
the last i knew PAF didnt have BVR capability whatsoever.. even if the PAF-f16 can fire bvr missiles.. the americans didnt give them bvr missiles to use..
but i am equally amazed to know that Jf17 can use only one.. can u please give the source of this info.. a lot of this will depend on the capability of the radar... i.e. if it can handle only one we should know which radar will be used..

Chineese SD10 isnt ready yet.. and with the secrecy chineese keep with their defence programs i dont think we will know this soon....of course russian source is closed due to indian hands.. the only direction they can see is to US.. and they definitely wont get source codes to integrate US missiles into JF17.. ( if they are getting AMRAAM.. at all)..

Exactly the point I was trying to make!

ASG
14 May 06,, 09:27
SD-10 is not operational.



So what engine is going to power these aircrafts?
Russian or Chinese?

If its Chinese, is the engine operational?

The engine is Russian RD-93.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/fc-1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JF-17_Thunder

Asim,

RD-93 is the engine used in JF-17. I doubt Russia would supply these directly to Pakistan. Though the engine could reach Pakisan through China.

Asim Aquil
14 May 06,, 09:30
I think the Russians want to sell, they just don't want to appear as the bad guys to the Indians.

ajaybhutani
14 May 06,, 09:44
I think the Russians want to sell, they just don't want to appear as the bad guys to the Indians.
india russia are long term partners.... with a lot of money flowing into russian kitty every year in the form of weapons purchase( planes.. ships .. aircraft carriers.... tanks.. ).. joint ventures and their products( like PJ10..) development money( like irbis).. they wont piss the indians off for just a few million dollars.. ( after all how much will 200 RD93 cost.. just a few hundred million dollars).. they earn much much more from india every year..... quite frankly they can afford not to have excellent relations with paksitan.. but moving back on relations with india costs them money is short term and long term..

Asim Aquil
14 May 06,, 09:48
There's no doubt on my mind that Pak foreign policy will try to trumpet its bettering relations with Iran, Gwadar port and India leaning towards the US.

And no doubt the Chinese-Russian equation would come into play too. Still have to hear something definite on all these issues.

ajaybhutani
14 May 06,, 09:51
The engine is Russian RD-93.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/fc-1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JF-17_Thunder

Asim,

RD-93 is the engine used in JF-17. I doubt Russia would supply these directly to Pakistan. Though the engine could reach Pakisan through China.

the russians have said yes to RD93 to china but the engine cannot be exported further without permission.. i.e. they still havent officially cleared RD93 for PAF JF17.. then theres no guarantee of missiles as SD10 isnt ready and others arent available..
furthermore believing that all this can be handled and deliveries in 2007.. aerospace engineers in this and other forums have stated that it needs a lot of testing.. not possible to even finish testing in 2007 with a single prototype.. leave aside weapons integration and induction into PAF add to it the uncertainities like engine, missiles etc..

ASG
14 May 06,, 09:54
There's no doubt on my mind that Pak foreign policy will try to trumpet its bettering relations with Iran, Gwadar port and India leaning towards the US.

And no doubt the Chinese-Russian equation would come into play too. Still have to hear something definite on all these issues.

Trumpet in front of whom? Bettering relations with Iran will hardly help Pakistan because of the US. And what will become of that relation once the US decides to invade Iran.

ajaybhutani
14 May 06,, 09:57
Has the RD-93 been denied officially to Pakistan?
right question will be has it been officially released for paksitan.

ajaybhutani
14 May 06,, 10:08
Trumpet in front of whom? Bettering relations with Iran will hardly help Pakistan because of the US. And what will become of that relation once the US decides to invade Iran.
same as that with taliban during afganistan invasion :biggrin:

ASG
14 May 06,, 10:16
Technical Specs of the aircraft leave a lot to be desired. I wonder why PAF thinks the A/C would be able to counter the IAF.

It is 80-85% as capable as a Block F-16.

BTW, Does the IAF's SU-30MKI Flanker has a helmet mounted cueing system? Or does any other aircraft in IAF's inventory?

Asim Aquil
14 May 06,, 10:16
Russia badly doesn't want an Iran invasion.

Pakistan's stance on Iran is very similar to Russia's. We don't want an invasion on Iran, but believe Iran should abide by the rules of the NPT that it signed.

What I'm saying is that the bettering relations will help Pakistan with Russia... of course there are OTHER factors as I mentioned. Gwadar can give Russia a much desired warm water access (peacefully this time not like the Afghan invasion). Chinese-Russian equation can play in Pak's favor too.

And then if we can raise enough doubts on the US-India partnership, we might just be able to squeeze at least some engines out of Russia.

ASG
14 May 06,, 10:17
same as that with taliban during afganistan invasion :biggrin:

:biggrin:

Samudra
14 May 06,, 10:31
Has the RD-93 been denied officially to Pakistan?

Ivanov has made it clear.
No engines for Pakistan.


Good luck with Chinese Liyang engines.


Gwadar can give Russia a much desired warm water access

It has been given away to the Chinese already.

Asim Aquil
14 May 06,, 10:37
They're actually just building it.

It will be used by Pakistan. And its main purpose is transit of goods. Thats why everywhere in Pakistan you'd see big billboards stating "Dubai being built in Pakistan" as Gwadar ads.

ajaybhutani
14 May 06,, 10:41
Technical Specs of the aircraft leave a lot to be desired. I wonder why PAF thinks the A/C would be able to counter the IAF.

It is 80-85% as capable as a Block F-16.

BTW, Does the IAF's SU-30MKI Flanker has a helmet mounted cueing system? Or does any other aircraft in IAF's inventory?
in a war with india the only real and credible defence for paksitan is nukes..
nothing will stand in air in 2 days.. in sea in a week..
land battle will be feirce.. but air support can make is quite cheap for india..
in all its gonna be a paksitani general pressing a nuke button in a weeks time :rolleyes:

Asim Aquil
14 May 06,, 10:43
The only advantage India realistically has is air superiority. Pak Air force is now quickly playing catch up. JF-17s will bridge the gap by large!

percentage_plyr
14 May 06,, 11:12
And then if we can raise enough doubts on the US-India partnership, we might just be able to squeeze at least some engines out of Russia.

ah,ha.....i thought all pakistanis hate russian engines....russian planes...warheads.anything russian.

they claim tht russian hardware is...

outdated
high-maintenance
short-lived
etc. etc..

& now u want the same "filty" "outdated" stuff so badly??!!! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Samudra
14 May 06,, 12:36
They're actually just building it.

It will be used by Pakistan. And its main purpose is transit of goods. Thats why everywhere in Pakistan you'd see big billboards stating "Dubai being built in Pakistan" as Gwadar ads.

China's String of Pearls plan.You're idea of Russians allowed into Gwadar is hilarious to say the least.

I dont have to know about your billboards etc.


The only advantage India realistically has is air superiority. Pak Air force is now quickly playing catch up. JF-17s will bridge the gap by large!

I suggest getting a decent engine for your aircraft in the first place.Taking on the IAF without engines is not a good idea.

ASG
14 May 06,, 14:28
The only advantage India realistically has is air superiority. Pak Air force is now quickly playing catch up. JF-17s will bridge the gap by large!

Yeah right! :rolleyes:

Even after the JF-17 PAF would be way far behind the IAF. Don't get me started on counting the stuff IAF has & PAF doesn't.

AEW, for example. And not to forget the one of the most advanced fighter jets in the world: SU-30MKI. What about the mid-air refuellers. :cool:

And this is just the begining of the list.

Dude, trust me, PAF won't be anywhere near. :rolleyes:

Asim Aquil
14 May 06,, 14:50
I wouldn't contest that, but I'd tell you we're sure as hell going to try surpassing India's air capabilities, if not at least match it.

Samudra
14 May 06,, 15:01
Getting a decent engine would be a great start.

ASG
14 May 06,, 16:34
I wouldn't contest that, but I'd tell you we're sure as hell going to try surpassing India's air capabilities, if not at least match it.

You don't have a clue about military aviation and then you go about posting such statements!! :eek: :rolleyes:

Is it a bad attempt at mocking your own country?

As Samudra stated, getting good engines would be a good start for you. Notice that I said "getting" & not developing, because that would be too much to ask.

Asim Aquil
14 May 06,, 17:12
Isn't it logical that any sane military decision maker would be trying to match the enemies capabilities at the very least?

Samudra
14 May 06,, 17:24
but I'd tell you we're sure as hell going to try surpassing India's air capabilities, if not at least match it.


Isn't it logical that any sane military decision maker would be trying to match the enemies capabilities at the very least?

Isnt it also logical that any sane military decision maker would be conscious of what he can achieve given the many constraints he faces ?

Isnt is also logical that any sane military decision maker would be conscious of what he can not achieve for himself and match it against his adversary?

Asim Aquil
14 May 06,, 17:58
"A country without a strong Air Force is at the mercy of any aggressor, Pakistan must build up her Air Force as quickly as possible, it must be an efficient Air Force, second to none." Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah PAF Academy, Risalpur 13th April, 1948

Any Pakistani leader is smart to follow on Jinnah's vision.

IMO Everyone should aim for the top. There are no points for 2nd best.

vinay60000
14 May 06,, 18:22
paf should get some new transport choppers look what happened when earth quake stuck ??? i could only see mi17 chopers flying and sadly one crashed but still paf wants attack chopers !!! i could say poor paf policy

Samudra
14 May 06,, 18:26
Pakistan must build up her Air Force as quickly as possible,it must be an efficient Air Force, second to none.


Any Pakistani leader is smart to follow on Jinnah's vision.

I can see that they are yet to follow on Jinnah's vision.
Its been 58 years since he spoke those words.


IMO Everyone should aim for the top.

IMO It would be a good idea to get an engine...PAF needs it desperately.

Asim Aquil
14 May 06,, 18:46
There's nothing confirmed that PAF doesn't have an engine.

Samudra
14 May 06,, 18:49
PAF doesn't have an engine.

This part of your last post is very accurate.

Asim Aquil
14 May 06,, 18:53
based on?

Samudra
14 May 06,, 19:01
based on...

...the absence of any new supplier and denial of the existing supplier.

Asim Aquil
14 May 06,, 19:02
Well u know they've already started making 16 of those for Pakistan.

Without an engine? Probably Russia's keeping a wrap on it coz of India?

Neo
14 May 06,, 19:06
...the absence of any new supplier and denial of the existing supplier.
Sam,
JF-17 is going into production soon. Chinese engine WS-12/13 won't be operational before 2009 yet the Thunder is going full ahead. I do believe that Pakistan has the formal agreement from Russia to bypass the embargo on RD-93 export to PAF.
It just doesn't make sense to produce the aircraft and store it for three years till the engine comes availabe. :confused:

ASG
14 May 06,, 19:11
Sam,
JF-17 is going into production soon. Chinese engine WS-12/13 won't be operational before 2009 yet the Thunder is going full ahead. I do believe that Pakistan has the formal agreement from Russia to bypass the embargo on RD-93 export to PAF.
It just doesn't make sense to produce the aircraft and store it for three years till the engine comes availabe. :confused:

No source till now has confirmed that JF-17 would be powered by Russian RD-93.

I don't think Russia would go as far as having a secret agreement with Pakistan that no one in the world knows about!?

Samudra
14 May 06,, 19:12
Well u know they've already started making 16 of those for Pakistan.

I'll talk about production after IOC.

ASG
14 May 06,, 19:16
I'll talk about production after IOC.

IOC without an engine. That is weird. May be that's the way it is in PAF.

:biggrin:

Neo
14 May 06,, 19:16
No source till now has confirmed that JF-17 would be powered by Russian RD-93.

I don't think Russia would go as far as having a secret agreement with Pakistan that no one in the world knows about!?
All eight prototypes are to be powered by RD-93, three for Pakistan and five for China..

Samudra
14 May 06,, 19:17
Sam,
JF-17 is going into production soon.

Without initial operational clearance?


Chinese engine WS-12/13 won't be operational before 2009 yet the Thunder is going full ahead. I do believe that Pakistan has the formal agreement from Russia to bypass the embargo on RD-93 export to PAF.

Boss, you dont start full scale production before you get your IOC, do you? :)


It just doesn't make sense to produce the aircraft and store it for three years till the engine comes availabe. :confused:

It will take three years to roll out a new aircraft from a new production line.That takes us to 2009 and thats when Chinese engines might get their IOC.

Neo
14 May 06,, 19:18
Maybe Russia is just waiting for India to sign a deal with the US for 126 MRCA's... ;)

ASG
14 May 06,, 19:18
All eight prototypes are to be powered by RD-93, three for Pakistan and five for China..

Can you provide us with a source pls. :)

Neo
14 May 06,, 19:20
Can you provide us with a source pls. :)
Are you saying that current prototypes are not equipped with RD-93? :confused:

ASG
14 May 06,, 19:21
Maybe Russia is just waiting for India to sign a deal with the US for 126 MRCA's... ;)

That is one thing that will never happen. And everyone knows why.

BTW Sam has a very valid point about IOC. And that way production won't begin till 2009-10.

Samudra
14 May 06,, 19:25
Maybe Russia is just waiting for India to sign a deal with the US for 126 MRCA's... ;)

...and the Amur sub deal, the new Krivaks deal, an additional MiG-29K order deal, joint development of new fighter deal, joint development of new transport aircraft deal...we have a long list of deals, Neo. :)

Rest assured, Russians will have to wait for too long.The way I see it JF-17 will become operational by 2011-2012 timeframe with Chinese engines.

I would not rule out RD engines powering PAF planes by 2010-2012 either(if Chinese fail to deliver).....JF-17 will witness huge delays - enough for us to finish off that MRCA deal, plus get our Tejas operational with HAL churning out 20-24 of these beauties every year.

ajaybhutani
14 May 06,, 20:42
The only advantage India realistically has is air superiority. Pak Air force is now quickly playing catch up. JF-17s will bridge the gap by large!
well for AF its air superiority..( i hope you realise what air superiority can do in plains and mountains.. )..
for army.. we have a bigger army. and definitely its equipment isnt worse than PA's.
for navy.. we are too big for paksitan navy..

JF17s arent even in production yet. and frankly by the time a good no of them are in service in pakstian india would have similar no of SU30's in service.. similar no of MRCA's and similar no of LCA's. its again gonna be a same situation..
please realise that the spending power of India on its military is much larger than what paksitan spends on its military.. and its gonna show its effect.

ajaybhutani
14 May 06,, 20:46
Without initial operational clearance?



Boss, you dont start full scale production before you get your IOC, do you? :)



It will take three years to roll out a new aircraft from a new production line.That takes us to 2009 and thats when Chinese engines might get their IOC.
it will take some time from when the engine gets IOC to when it will get IOC for JF17.. for instance WS-10 has got IOC .. but it still hasnt got IOC for J10..

ASG
14 May 06,, 21:11
BTW, Does the IAF's SU-30MKI Flanker has a helmet mounted cueing system? Or does any other aircraft in IAF's inventory?

Any hints?

ajaybhutani
14 May 06,, 21:32
Any hints?
yes it does..

http://www.edefenseonline.com/default.asp?func=article&aref=03_10_2005_OM_01

bull
15 May 06,, 12:31
Maybe Russia is just waiting for India to sign a deal with the US for 126 MRCA's... ;)


may be India might delay the orders for 126 MRCS till 2010 and then what? will JF 17 wait till then?

ASG
16 May 06,, 16:46
yes it does..

http://www.edefenseonline.com/default.asp?func=article&aref=03_10_2005_OM_01
Kewl! :cool:

Neo
21 May 06,, 19:40
Link from PFF:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...25224735284123

Archer
27 May 06,, 19:31
Originally Posted by Maximus

BTW, Does the IAF's SU-30MKI Flanker has a helmet mounted cueing system? Or does any other aircraft in IAF's inventory?

IAF Sukhois and Bisons have the Sura-K
IAF MiG-29s have the Schel system (earlier)
These are HMCS.

IAF LCAs are getting the Dash (HMD)
IN MiG-29Ks are getting the Topsight HMD
Mirage 2000s were to get the Dash.