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Neo
19 Apr 06,, 19:17
An editorial by Adnan Gill called 'Nukes for India'


Nukes for India
Monday March 13, 2006 (1650 PST)

Adnan Gill
gill_adnan@hotmail.com


On March 2, 2006, succumbing to unrelenting pressure from neo-cons? nuclear lobby and the increasingly powerful Indian lobby, President Bush signed a nuclear technology-sharing/transfer deal with India. Reportedly, President Bush agreed to share so-called ?civilian nuclear technology? with India despite its dubious nuclear weapons programs and its refusal to sign the 1970 Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT). President Bush has single handedly done what last six US presidents refused to do. For decades President Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton and Bush (Senior) refused to aid India`s nuclear-weapons program by breaking US and international laws meant to reign in nuclear proliferation. If the US Congress will not judiciously kill the ill advised deal, the ripple effects from the U.S. decision to violate international treaties, and reverse decades of non-proliferation policy by permitting sales of nuclear technology and fuels to India will be felt for ages to come.


The details of the deal are largely unknown, but it appears that at least one-third of current and future Indian nuclear plants will be exempt from International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspections. Experts believe the "Indian-specific" inspection regime envisioned by the Bush administration falls well short of the normal, full-scope inspections practiced worldwide.

India has limited uranium reserves, but thanks to President Bush, US will supply uranium fuel for Indian civilian nuclear reactors, which in turn will free up Indian originated uranium to make nuclear weapons. It is estimated that currently India is producing approximately six to 10 nuclear bombs per year. The deal will certainly boost Indian nuclear weapons production to several dozen a year. By all means, the deal assists and enhances India`s nuclear-weapons program. In the words of one of the deal?s architect turned lobbyist, "the problem is not that India has too many nuclear weapons, it is that they do not have enough." As a good neo-con soldier, President Bush is doing his best to turn India?s dream into a reality.

Last time the US generously handed over the civilian nuclear technology to India, it resulted in a so-called ?peaceful nuclear explosion? (detonated on May 18, 1974). The radioactive core for India?s first nuclear device was the plutonium diverted from its American-Canadian supplied civilian nuclear reactor (CIRUS). This time around too, it is hard to imagine how the US will ensure the Indians will not divert or copy the technology transfer for military purposes?

Non-proliferation experts like Dr. Joseph Cirincione (director for non-proliferation, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington, DC.) are deeply worried of another negative effect stemming from this deal. He believes the deal is setting a ?bad example? for other countries pursuing their own nuclear programs. Dr. Cirincione explains, ?The lesson Iran is likely to draw is simple: if you hold out long enough, the Americans will cave. All this talk about violating treaties, they will reason, is just smoke. When the Americans think you are important enough, they will break the rules to accommodate you.? He further shares his fears emanating from this deal,

?Pakistani officials have already said they expect their country to receive a similar deal, and Israel is surely waiting in the wings. Other nations may decide that they can break the rules, too, to grant special deals to their friends. China is already rumored to be seeking a deal to provide open nuclear assistance to Pakistan. Will Russia decide that it can make an exception for Iran??

Contrary to Bush Administrations bullish pursuit to modernize Indian nuclear program, serious objections have been raised in India and the United States against this particular deal. American environmentalists, opinion makers (e.g. New York Times & Washington Post), and legislators are questioning the wisdom behind Bush Administration?s desire to modernize Indian nuclear program at the cost of violating international treaties like NPT and in a display of barefaced defiance of a ?Nuclear Suppliers Group? ban.

The deal drew wide criticism from all corners of Earth, including from the US media and lawmakers. Both Republicans and Democrats legislators in the US Congress angered over being kept in dark about the deal promised the White House an uphill battle.

Republicans and Democrats legislators in the US Congress are deeply concerned over the nuclear deal. Purportedly, the deal was conceived by a few senior Bush

administration officials and was never reviewed by the departments of State, Defense or Energy prior to the joint-announcement.

Apparently, the US Congress was left out of loop. Even the Bush loyalists like, chairman of the Subcommittee on International Terrorism and Nonproliferation, Republican Congressman Ed Royce issued veiled warning, "the US-India agreement on civil nuclear cooperation has implications beyond US-India relations. In this process, the goal of curbing nuclear proliferation should be paramount. Congress will continue its careful consideration of this far-reaching agreement."

Democratic Congressman Edward Markey most vocally criticized the deal by saying, "America cannot credibly preach nuclear temperance from a barstool. We can`t

tell Iran, a country that has signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, that they can`t have [uranium] enrichment technologies while simultaneously carving out a special exemption from nuclear-proliferation laws for India, a nation that has refused to sign the treaty." Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Republican Senator Richard Lugar and Republican, Congressman Henry Hyde both have made no secret of their reservations about the deal.

Dismissing critics who charged that the agreement with New Delhi would prompt nations such as Pakistan to seek similar treatment and escalate their own weapons production, Bush said, "Pakistan and India are different countries, with different needs and different histories". Apparently, President Bush was referring to A.Q. Khan, the former head of Pakistan`s nuclear program, who allegedly ran a black-market operation selling nuclear secrets and technology to Iran, North Korea and Libya. In response, the non-proliferation experts point to India?s unholy record of proliferating nuclear technology to Iran, and Iraq (President Bush`s axis of evil).

India has a long history of horizontal and vertical nuclear proliferation. It is public knowledge that India?s nuclear weapons are developed from the radioactive cores diverted from her so-called civilian nuclear reactors. Not only that, India also built a long rap sheet of nuclear proliferation by callously paddling WMD technologies to the supposedly pariah nations like Iran and Iraq.

Indian Nuclear/WMD Proliferation Record:

Proliferation to Iran

India has a distinct record of Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) collaboration with Iran. Although this collaboration can be traced to as far back as 1970s, following is a list of most glaring examples of Indian WMD proliferation to Iran:



Following Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi?s 1974 official visit to Tehran, Iran and India announced contacts will be made "between the atomic energy organizations in the two countries in order to establish a basis for cooperation in this field." [1]



Reportedly, in 1975 Iran hosted nuclear technical advisers from (among others) India who worked on its nuclear program.[2]



During 1980 and1983, Iran requested Indian help in completing the Bushehr reactor after West Germany halted work on the project in 1980. [3]



Indian nuclear collaboration with Iran goes at least as far back as 1982. In 1982, the Indian radio and BBC Summary of World Broadcasts reported that India will send a group of nuclear engineers and scientists to Iran. They supposedly inspected the Bushehr nuclear power plant to study the problems.



On July 1, 1989, officials from Indian State Trading Corporation in Bombay admited that they sold about 60 tons of thionyl chloride (a mustard gas or nerve agent precursor) to Iran for approximately $50,000. Allegedly, the same year another Indian State Trading Company`s supplier, Transpek Private Ltd., sold about 257 tons more of the chemical to Iran. [4]



On February 1, 1991, Indian Atomic Energy Commission announced that India will seek to export its nuclear technology. Following the Indian announcement the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran negotiates to purchase nuclear technology or expertise from India. As a result, India and Iran exchange nuclear scientists. [5]



In the October of same year (1991), Iran`s Deputy Foreign Minister Alaeddin Borujerdi met Indian Prime Minister Narasimha Rao in New Delhi to discuss the purchase of 10MW reactor. Finally on November 11, 1991 the Indian Foreign Minister Sing Solanki signed a technical cooperation deal with Iran ensuring the delivery of 10MW reactor to Iran. [6]



In a Middle East Defense News June 8, 1992 report, it was announced, Iran negotiated the purchase of a 10MW nuclear research reactor subsequently installed at the Moallem Kalayeh site. Though the construction on the Moallem Kalayah site had already begun in 1987.



Another Indian company, Transpek Industry Ltd., in 1990, won an estimated $12.5 million bid to install and commission a turn-key chemical plant in Iran. By 1996 the company built the world`s largest manufacturing facility for thionyl chloride outside of Europe. [7]



In November 1994, the German intelligence reported that an Indian consortium was building a pesticide plant that could be linked to the production of chemical weapons in Iran. [8]



On January 30, 1995, the German Intelligence Agency (BND) stated that Indian companies were aiding Iran in its development of tabun and sarin. [9]



In its January 1995 report, the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reported that Indian firms have provided equipment and raw materials to Iran, which aided the Iranian development of chemical weapons. [10]



Reportedly, an Indian nuclear scientist Dr. Y.S.R. Prasad who retired in 2000 made at least two visits to Iran`s Bushehr nuclear facility. Mr. Chidambaram, a former head of the Atomic Energy Commission, acknowledged Dr. Prasad?s work in Iran. He said Dr. Prasad "originally went to Iran as part of an IAEA assignment. Later, he went back to Bushehr under a private contract with the Iranians."



The Hindustan Times, quoted a classified government document, which stated Dr. Prasad spent years working on India`s atomic energy programmes, did not seek government permission to go to Iran. [11]



The most damning admission of Indian nuclear proliferation to Iran came in December 2003. When pressed by Iranian reporters, the Indian external affairs minister Yashwant Sinha said "most certainly between Iran and India, there would be collaboration, there is collaboration".



In 2004, the US State Department blacklisted two Indian scientists. The Indian nuclear scientists were charged with nuclear proliferation to Iran. The US State Department spokesman Richard Boucher explained, "The cases reflected poor Indian commitment to non-proliferation."



In yet another instance, the US sanctioned two Indian firms for selling prohibited items to Iran.

Proliferation to Iraq

Likewise, Indian-Iraqi nuclear relations date back to 1974, when Saddam Hussein flew to India specifically to sign a nuclear cooperation treaty with the Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi.



The little known nuclear cooperation treaty involved the exchange of scientists, training, and technology. After the destruction of the Iraqi (French-supplied) Osirak nuclear reactor in 1981, Iraq severly limited the exchange of scientists for fear of revealing its clandestine program, but till then, Iraqi scientists were working in India`s plutonium separation labs. The same Iraqi scientists who gained valuable training and experience from working in Indian nuclear labs later took charge of the nuclear fuel reprocessing unit supplied to Iraq by the Italian company CNEN. An Indian scientist trained the Iraqi scientist at Atomic Energy Commission`s computer center on the use of nuclear computer codes. [12]



In 1979, Iraq sent engineers to visit India`s nuclear establishments and scientists. [13]



CNN reported that Investigators say between 1998 and 2001, an Indian company NEC Engineers Private Ltd. illegally shipped 10 consignments (worth $800,000) of highly sensitive equipment, including titanium vessels and centrifugal pumps, to Iraq. NEC reportedly built the chemical plant in the city of Fallujah. In a statement by NEC Engineers Private Ltd`s project manager, N. Katturajan said the chemical facility was controlled by Iraqi military. According to CNN ?official at NEC Engineers Private Ltd. said large amounts of chlorine were removed from the Fallujah chemical complex, which was constructed by Indian engineers. Experts say chlorine can be used in the production of chemical weapons like mustard gas and nerve agents.? For their services rendered the Indian managers from NEC Engineers` Private Limited demanded $1

million. [14]

India has a record of proliferating WMDs through knowledge support and material transport. It has a huge manpower trained in nuclear secrets, which inherently makes it a considerable knowledge transfer risk. American nuclear technology transfer to India will only exponentially increase the odds of American nuclear secrets being leaked to whole world.

Even if by some miracle India does not leak the American secrets to other nations, the technology will for sure find its way to Indian military nuclear weapons program. Anyone with even rudimentary knowledge of how nuclear technology works knows there are no fundamental differences between so-called ?civilian? and ?military? nuclear facilities. No matter how one designates a nuclear facility, all it takes to fashion a nuclear weapon is a transfer of irradiated fuel (e.g. plutonium) from a nuclear reactor to reprocessing plant. India is not a NPT signatory and has a record of diverting nuclear fuel from its civilian facilities to weapons program. World community will have to take

Bush Administration?s word that India will not misuse US technology to modernize and bolster its nuclear weapons stockpile.

If the Bush Administration in its pursuit of contain-China-by-building-up-India policy can be callus enough to unilaterally violate the NPT, -- by transferring latest US nuclear technology to India -- it is anyone?s guess why or how it will guarantee that such a transfer will not benefit India?s nuclear weapons program?

On the other hand, for different reasons, even some Indian voices are joining the opposition to this deal. At the heart of Indian opposition were India?s Fast Breeder Reactors [FBR]. Americans were demanding the FBRs to be separated from Indian military nuclear facilities. But the leading Indian scientists who believe their nuclear program to be much more advanced than Americans?, especially its FBR program, succeeded in keeping the FBRs out of Indian civilian nuclear facilities list. They believe FBRs to be the salvation for the unhindered production of fissile material for its unverifiable nuclear weapons. Therefore, they staunchly opposed categorization of its FBRs as civilian nuclear facilities.

India`s first fast breeder nuclear reactor (adopted from the French reactor design) has already completed 20 years of work. The FBTR is located at the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research [IGCAR] at Kalpakkam. Indian experts envision FBRs to be the technology that can secure India`s energy future as it can convert thorium (readily available in India) into U-233. Such reactors also form the second stage of India`s nuclear program, converting Uranium 238 present in nature to plutonium. It is basically an invaluable source of unaccounted fissile material for India?s nuclear weapons.

Ironically, highly suspicious Indian scientists who also belong to the Swadeshi Science Movement (Vijnana Bharti) believe the U.S. offer of collaboration in India?s nuclear research to be a tactic to steal Indian technology. Vijnana Bharti?s organizing Secretary A. Jayakumar, in an open letter to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, said, ?The deal offers no tangible benefits to India?. Mr. Jayakumar said ?the American offer of reciprocity and collaboration in our nuclear research and development is nothing more than the ancient tactic of Dhrithrashtra embrace.? He further complained, ?experience shows that either [U.S] would stall it, or steal it.? Mr. Jayakumar asked the government not to surrender Indian interests to the U.S. and finally warned, ?otherwise all patriotic citizens of this land, cutting across political and academic lines, would take to the streets?.

It?s also worth mentioning that the IGCAR has a tainted safety and hazard record. According to IGCAR, in 1987, during a fuel transfer process, a tube that guides fuel into the reactor snapped. Then in 2002, 75kg of radioactive sodium leaked inside a purification cabin.

The deal gave India a final say over which reactors to open to inspection and which ones to declare secret military sites, where weapons continue to be produced. Unfortunately, the Bush Administration caved in to Indian demands and allowed it to classify FBRs as military sites. This one misclassification will essentially enable India to secretly produce unlimited nuclear weapons. And for some unfathomable reason, Bush administration officials said this move would lead to fewer nuclear weapons. But critics were quick to argue that the US reversed decades of precedent with the deal, which lifted the ban on sales of nuclear materials to a country that has refused to sign the nonproliferation treaty and has a record of diverting fissile material from civilian sites.

Regardless of what proponents or opponents of the deal say, it should be clear to the world that, just as it did in the past, sooner or later India will divert American nuclear technology to its weapons program. The questions Bush Administration and members of Nuclear Suppliers Group should be seriously asking are, will the modernization of Indian nuclear weapons make the world, especially, the South-Asia safer? Will the American technology transfer start a new nuclear weapons race between India and Pakistan vis-à-vis China? Is it wise to destabilize the world by further arming a nation with a history of dishonoring its word? If not, then why the neo-cons in the Bush Administration are hell-bent at undermining the international treaties and conventions by breaking them in spirit and practice?

The greatest irony of this Indo-US deal remains that While America disarms the unarmed, it arms up the well armed.

Courtesy: Defence Journal



Key Sources:



["Full Text of Iran-India Joint Communiqué," Iran Almanac (Tehran: The Echo of Iran, 1974), p. 176]

[George Quester, "The Shaw and the Bomb" (unpublished paper, 1975), and a private interview conducted in February 1975; in Anne Hessing Cahn, "Determinants of the Nuclear Option: The Case of Iran," Nuclear Proliferation in the Near-Nuclear Countries (Cambridge: Ballinger Publishing Co., 1975), Onkar Marwah and Ann Shulz, eds., p. 199.]

[Nuclear News Buyers Guide, March 1983, pp. 19-24]

["India Says It Sold Iran a Chemical Used in Poison Gas," The New York Times,1 July 1989, p. 1]

[?Nucleonics Week?, 7 February 1991, p. 17; Nuclear News, March 1991, p.56]

["An Iranian Nuclear Chronology, 1987-1982", "Nuclear Facilities," Middle East Defense News, 8 June 1992]

[Nuclear Threat Initiative (NTI):

http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/India/Chemical/index.htm]

[Chemical Weapons Convention Bulletin, March 1995]

[The Arms Control Reporter; Chemical Weapons Convention Bulletin, October 1995, Issue Number 27]

[The Arms Control Reporter; Chemical Weapons Convention Bulletin October, 1995, Issue Number 27]

[Top Indian nuclear expert helped Iran develop power plant: report; http://www.spacewar.com/2003/031023051623.vbyeqa4o.html]

[India`s Nuclear Tests: Will They Open New Possibilities for Iraq to Exploit?; ISIS Issue Brief; May 28, 1998]

[Chengappa, Raj. 2000. Weapons of Peace, HarperCollins Publishers India, ISBN 81-7223-330-2]

[Probe into illegal Indian exports to Iraq, New Delhi Bureau Chief Satinder Bindra and Amol Sharma, January 26, 2003; Indian documents suggest Iraq violated U.N. resolutions, Satinder Bindra and Amol Sharma, CNN, February 5, 2003]

http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=137193

Ray
19 Apr 06,, 19:57
Adnan Gill or Harbachan Gill, this does not cut ice both in the White House or in the Indian PM's residence.

Try as one might with the lobbyist and buying up the media, the deal will go thorugh.

Bush is an adamant man!

Neo
19 Apr 06,, 20:14
Adnan Gill or Harbachan Gill, this does not cut ice both in the White House or in the Indian PM's residence.

Try as one might with the lobbyist and buying up the media, the deal will go thorugh.

Bush is an adamant man!

I have no objections to the deal, it will pave way for us to get a similar deal with China.
Since Mr. Tronic in his colorful way of speaking challenged my claims about Indian proliferation, I posted the above aditorial.
Spledid piece to proof US' double standards and Indian hypocracy when it comes to classical whining about nuclear proliferation in the region.

Meet you're equivalent of A.Q. Khan, Dr. Y.S.R. Prasad! :)

Neo
19 Apr 06,, 20:22
So where is Mr. Tronic?
Your comments please.. :)

Jay
19 Apr 06,, 20:32
I have no objections to the deal, it will pave way for us to get a similar deal with China.
Dude, you've got war head and missile blueprints and fully assembled missile kita from China. Tell us something new ;)


Meet you're equivalent of A.Q. Khan, Dr. Y.S.R. Prasad! :)



YSR Prasad:
Sanctioned by the United States on September 23, 2004 under the Iran Nonproliferation Act of 2000, for transferring to Iran equipment and/or technology of proliferation significance since January 1, 1999; served as Managing Director of the Nuclear Power Corporation of India Limited (NPCIL) as of January 1, 1995 and Chairman and Managing Director of the NPCIL beginning in August 1997; the NPCIL is controlled by the Department of Atomic Energy of the Indian government; traveled to Iran under the Technical Cooperation Program of the International Atomic Energy Agency and as a consultant on the Bushehr nuclear power plant, according to a spokesman for India’s Ministry of External Affairs, which denies the U.S. charge that Prasad sold or transferred sensitive equipment to Iran; has not traveled to Iran since mid-2003 according to the Ministry of External Affairs spokesman.

http://www.iranwatch.org/search/view_record.asp?sc=suppliers&id=132

AQKhan
According to President George W. Bush, "father of Pakistan's nuclear weapons program" and "director...leading scientific mind...[and] primary salesman" of "an extensive international network for the proliferation of nuclear technology and know-how"; through smuggling network sold blueprints for centrifuges, a nuclear bomb design and uranium hexafluoride; provided centrifuge designs and components, and, in some cases, complete centrifuges to Iran, Libya and North Korea; used a factory in Malaysia to manufacture key parts for centrifuges and had operatives in Europe, the Middle East and Africa; according to President Bush, his deputy and the network's chief financial officer, B.S.A. Tahir, ran SMB Computers, a front company in Dubai used as a cover for the shipment of centrifuge parts to various clients;

http://www.iranwatch.org/search/view_record.asp?sc=suppliers&id=126



He did not seel blueprints to warheads like AQKhan did. Big difference :biggrin: Dont make a mountain out of a molehill.

Tronic
19 Apr 06,, 20:35
Nukes for India
Monday March 13, 2006 (1650 PST)

Adnan Gill
gill_adnan@hotmail.com


On March 2, 2006, succumbing to unrelenting pressure from neo-cons? nuclear lobby and the increasingly powerful Indian lobby, President Bush signed a nuclear technology-sharing/transfer deal with India. Reportedly, President Bush agreed to share so-called ?civilian nuclear technology? with India despite its dubious nuclear weapons programs and its refusal to sign the 1970 Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT). President Bush has single handedly done what last six US presidents refused to do. For decades President Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton and Bush (Senior) refused to aid India`s nuclear-weapons program by breaking US and international laws meant to reign in nuclear proliferation. If the US Congress will not judiciously kill the ill advised deal, the ripple effects from the U.S. decision to violate international treaties, and reverse decades of non-proliferation policy by permitting sales of nuclear technology and fuels to India will be felt for ages to come.

well, what effects this treaty will have, only time will tell...




India has limited uranium reserves, but thanks to President Bush, US will supply uranium fuel for Indian civilian nuclear reactors, which in turn will free up Indian originated uranium to make nuclear weapons. It is estimated that currently India is producing approximately six to 10 nuclear bombs per year. The deal will certainly boost Indian nuclear weapons production to several dozen a year. By all means, the deal assists and enhances India`s nuclear-weapons program. In the words of one of the deal?s architect turned lobbyist, "the problem is not that India has too many nuclear weapons, it is that they do not have enough." As a good neo-con soldier, President Bush is doing his best to turn India?s dream into a reality.

Firstly, where the
well, it seems like Indian nuclear weapons aren't a threat to anyone unlike Islamic Nukes in the hands of people with the views (why I won't live with _____) people ;Indian nukes are a good retaliationary tool against Pakistan, because if another military conflict starts with Pakistan (or "could have" started against Pakistan prior to getting nukes), Indian Army is enough to handle the situation, we don't need nukes, contrast to Pakistan. Then there comes the China issue, in which the nukes are there for self defense if a conflict arises there which probably won't since both countries are facing an economic boom.


Last time the US generously handed over the civilian nuclear technology to India, it resulted in a so-called ?peaceful nuclear explosion? (detonated on May 18, 1974). The radioactive core for India?s first nuclear device was the plutonium diverted from its American-Canadian supplied civilian nuclear reactor (CIRUS). This time around too, it is hard to imagine how the US will ensure the Indians will not divert or copy the technology transfer for military purposes?

wth... when did the US hand over civilian nuclear technology to India????? This is the first time this will be happening, and where the hell is this guy getting that above info??? This above paragraph just shows this guys knows nothing what he's talking about... The Indian nuclear program has existed since 1947...


Non-proliferation experts like Dr. Joseph Cirincione (director for non-proliferation, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington, DC.) are deeply worried of another negative effect stemming from this deal. He believes the deal is setting a ?bad example? for other countries pursuing their own nuclear programs. Dr. Cirincione explains, ?The lesson Iran is likely to draw is simple: if you hold out long enough, the Americans will cave. All this talk about violating treaties, they will reason, is just smoke. When the Americans think you are important enough, they will break the rules to accommodate you.? He further shares his fears emanating from this deal

yea, thats this guys opinion, but I think Iran was already on the path to obtaining the bomb way before India and the US signed the treaty, plus, Libya and North Korea, there was nuclear proliferation going on (thanks to Pakistan and AQ Khan) way before India and the US signed the treaty.



?Pakistani officials have already said they expect their country to receive a similar deal, and Israel is surely waiting in the wings. Other nations may decide that they can break the rules, too, to grant special deals to their friends. China is already rumored to be seeking a deal to provide open nuclear assistance to Pakistan. Will Russia decide that it can make an exception for Iran??

well, good luck with that, Israel too has already achieved significant nuclear achievement


Contrary to Bush Administrations bullish pursuit to modernize Indian nuclear program, serious objections have been raised in India and the United States against this particular deal. American environmentalists, opinion makers (e.g. New York Times & Washington Post), and legislators are questioning the wisdom behind Bush Administration?s desire to modernize Indian nuclear program at the cost of violating international treaties like NPT and in a display of barefaced defiance of a ?Nuclear Suppliers Group? ban.

well, it's not the first time Bush is doing such a thing, he defyed the United Nations when he went to war with Iraq. He does what he thinks is right...



We can`t tell Iran, a country that has signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, that they can`t have [uranium] enrichment technologies while simultaneously carving out a special exemption from nuclear-proliferation laws for India, a nation that has refused to sign the treaty." Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Republican Senator Richard Lugar and Republican, Congressman Henry Hyde both have made no secret of their reservations about the deal.

ok, now thats just stupid, Iran, despite being a signatory has openly broken the rules and well had nuclear proliferation connections with the Pakistani's, so thats answering your own questions...


Dismissing critics who charged that the agreement with New Delhi would prompt nations such as Pakistan to seek similar treatment and escalate their own weapons production, Bush said, "Pakistan and India are different countries, with different needs and different histories". Apparently, President Bush was referring to A.Q. Khan, the former head of Pakistan`s nuclear program, who allegedly ran a black-market operation selling nuclear secrets and technology to Iran, North Korea and Libya. In response, the non-proliferation experts point to India?s unholy record of proliferating nuclear technology to Iran, and Iraq (President Bush`s axis of evil).

I think the Title should be How clean is Pakistan?


India has a long history of horizontal and vertical nuclear proliferation. It is public knowledge that India?s nuclear weapons are developed from the radioactive cores diverted from her so-called civilian nuclear reactors. Not only that, India also built a long rap sheet of nuclear proliferation by callously paddling WMD technologies to the supposedly pariah nations like Iran and Iraq.

Sure, maybe in this guyz dreamland...


Indian Nuclear/WMD Proliferation Record:

Proliferation to Iran

India has a distinct record of Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) collaboration with Iran. Although this collaboration can be traced to as far back as 1970s, following is a list of most glaring examples of Indian WMD proliferation to Iran:

haha, back to the 1970's????? wow, funny thing, India didn't really have WMD's back then, and I think it would be pretty stupid for a country to pass over nuclear secrets to other countries when they themselves don't have the bomb integrated into the army... and the only thing that pushed us to that nuclear explosion was the Chinese nuclear test in 1964...



Following Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi?s 1974 official visit to Tehran, Iran and India announced contacts will be made "between the atomic energy organizations in the two countries in order to establish a basis for cooperation in this field." [1]

this does not mean WMD proliferation... :rolleyes:
the Iranian nuclear program was supported by several Western powers back then. Reactors were purchased from the United States, France, and West Germany. Iranian nuclear scientists were trained in those countries as well as in Great Britain, Italy, Belgium, and Canada. Argentina, an aspiring nuclear power at the time, also provided advisers.



Reportedly, in 1975 Iran hosted nuclear technical advisers from (among others) India who worked on its nuclear program.[2]

read above... a whole lot of Western countries also worked with Iran...



During 1980 and1983, Iran requested Indian help in completing the Bushehr reactor after West Germany halted work on the project in 1980. [3]



Indian nuclear collaboration with Iran goes at least as far back as 1982. In 1982, the Indian radio and BBC Summary of World Broadcasts reported that India will send a group of nuclear engineers and scientists to Iran. They supposedly inspected the Bushehr nuclear power plant to study the problems.

read above...



On July 1, 1989, officials from Indian State Trading Corporation in Bombay admited that they sold about 60 tons of thionyl chloride (a mustard gas or nerve agent precursor) to Iran for approximately $50,000. Allegedly, the same year another Indian State Trading Company`s supplier, Transpek Private Ltd., sold about 257 tons more of the chemical to Iran. [4]

all is fair... Americans provided Iraqi's with Chemical weapons... atleast the Iranians didn't manage to use them on their own people, lol.




On February 1, 1991, Indian Atomic Energy Commission announced that India will seek to export its nuclear technology. Following the Indian announcement the Atomic Energy Organization of Iran negotiates to purchase nuclear technology or expertise from India. As a result, India and Iran exchange nuclear scientists. [5]



In the October of same year (1991), Iran`s Deputy Foreign Minister Alaeddin Borujerdi met Indian Prime Minister Narasimha Rao in New Delhi to discuss the purchase of 10MW reactor. Finally on November 11, 1991 the Indian Foreign Minister Sing Solanki signed a technical cooperation deal with Iran ensuring the delivery of 10MW reactor to Iran. [6]



In a Middle East Defense News June 8, 1992 report, it was announced, Iran negotiated the purchase of a 10MW nuclear research reactor subsequently installed at the Moallem Kalayeh site. Though the construction on the Moallem Kalayah site had already begun in 1987.



Another Indian company, Transpek Industry Ltd., in 1990, won an estimated $12.5 million bid to install and commission a turn-key chemical plant in Iran. By 1996 the company built the world`s largest manufacturing facility for thionyl chloride outside of Europe. [7]



In November 1994, the German intelligence reported that an Indian consortium was building a pesticide plant that could be linked to the production of chemical weapons in Iran. [8]



On January 30, 1995, the German Intelligence Agency (BND) stated that Indian companies were aiding Iran in its development of tabun and sarin. [9]



In its January 1995 report, the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reported that Indian firms have provided equipment and raw materials to Iran, which aided the Iranian development of chemical weapons. [10]



Reportedly, an Indian nuclear scientist Dr. Y.S.R. Prasad who retired in 2000 made at least two visits to Iran`s Bushehr nuclear facility. Mr. Chidambaram, a former head of the Atomic Energy Commission, acknowledged Dr. Prasad?s work in Iran. He said Dr. Prasad "originally went to Iran as part of an IAEA assignment. Later, he went back to Bushehr under a private contract with the Iranians."



The Hindustan Times, quoted a classified government document, which stated Dr. Prasad spent years working on India`s atomic energy programmes, did not seek government permission to go to Iran. [11]



The most damning admission of Indian nuclear proliferation to Iran came in December 2003. When pressed by Iranian reporters, the Indian external affairs minister Yashwant Sinha said "most certainly between Iran and India, there would be collaboration, there is collaboration".



In 2004, the US State Department blacklisted two Indian scientists. The Indian nuclear scientists were charged with nuclear proliferation to Iran. The US State Department spokesman Richard Boucher explained, "The cases reflected poor Indian commitment to non-proliferation."



In yet another instance, the US sanctioned two Indian firms for selling prohibited items to Iran.

Proliferation to Iraq

Likewise, Indian-Iraqi nuclear relations date back to 1974, when Saddam Hussein flew to India specifically to sign a nuclear cooperation treaty with the Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi.



The little known nuclear cooperation treaty involved the exchange of scientists, training, and technology. After the destruction of the Iraqi (French-supplied) Osirak nuclear reactor in 1981, Iraq severly limited the exchange of scientists for fear of revealing its clandestine program, but till then, Iraqi scientists were working in India`s plutonium separation labs. The same Iraqi scientists who gained valuable training and experience from working in Indian nuclear labs later took charge of the nuclear fuel reprocessing unit supplied to Iraq by the Italian company CNEN. An Indian scientist trained the Iraqi scientist at Atomic Energy Commission`s computer center on the use of nuclear computer codes. [12]



In 1979, Iraq sent engineers to visit India`s nuclear establishments and scientists. [13]



CNN reported that Investigators say between 1998 and 2001, an Indian company NEC Engineers Private Ltd. illegally shipped 10 consignments (worth $800,000) of highly sensitive equipment, including titanium vessels and centrifugal pumps, to Iraq. NEC reportedly built the chemical plant in the city of Fallujah. In a statement by NEC Engineers Private Ltd`s project manager, N. Katturajan said the chemical facility was controlled by Iraqi military. According to CNN ?official at NEC Engineers Private Ltd. said large amounts of chlorine were removed from the Fallujah chemical complex, which was constructed by Indian engineers. Experts say chlorine can be used in the production of chemical weapons like mustard gas and nerve agents.? For their services rendered the Indian managers from NEC Engineers` Private Limited demanded $1

million. [14]


India has a record of proliferating WMDs through knowledge support and material transport. It has a huge manpower trained in nuclear secrets, which inherently makes it a considerable knowledge transfer risk. American nuclear technology transfer to India will only exponentially increase the odds of American nuclear secrets being leaked to whole world.

Even if by some miracle India does not leak the American secrets to other nations, the technology will for sure find its way to Indian military nuclear weapons program. Anyone with even rudimentary knowledge of how nuclear technology works knows there are no fundamental differences between so-called ?civilian? and ?military? nuclear facilities. No matter how one designates a nuclear facility, all it takes to fashion a nuclear weapon is a transfer of irradiated fuel (e.g. plutonium) from a nuclear reactor to reprocessing plant. India is not a NPT signatory and has a record of diverting nuclear fuel from its civilian facilities to weapons program. World community will have to take

Bush Administration?s word that India will not misuse US technology to modernize and bolster its nuclear weapons stockpile.

If the Bush Administration in its pursuit of contain-China-by-building-up-India policy can be callus enough to unilaterally violate the NPT, -- by transferring latest US nuclear technology to India -- it is anyone?s guess why or how it will guarantee that such a transfer will not benefit India?s nuclear weapons program?

On the other hand, for different reasons, even some Indian voices are joining the opposition to this deal. At the heart of Indian opposition were India?s Fast Breeder Reactors [FBR]. Americans were demanding the FBRs to be separated from Indian military nuclear facilities. But the leading Indian scientists who believe their nuclear program to be much more advanced than Americans?, especially its FBR program, succeeded in keeping the FBRs out of Indian civilian nuclear facilities list. They believe FBRs to be the salvation for the unhindered production of fissile material for its unverifiable nuclear weapons. Therefore, they staunchly opposed categorization of its FBRs as civilian nuclear facilities.

India`s first fast breeder nuclear reactor (adopted from the French reactor design) has already completed 20 years of work. The FBTR is located at the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research [IGCAR] at Kalpakkam. Indian experts envision FBRs to be the technology that can secure India`s energy future as it can convert thorium (readily available in India) into U-233. Such reactors also form the second stage of India`s nuclear program, converting Uranium 238 present in nature to plutonium. It is basically an invaluable source of unaccounted fissile material for India?s nuclear weapons.

Ironically, highly suspicious Indian scientists who also belong to the Swadeshi Science Movement (Vijnana Bharti) believe the U.S. offer of collaboration in India?s nuclear research to be a tactic to steal Indian technology. Vijnana Bharti?s organizing Secretary A. Jayakumar, in an open letter to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, said, ?The deal offers no tangible benefits to India?. Mr. Jayakumar said ?the American offer of reciprocity and collaboration in our nuclear research and development is nothing more than the ancient tactic of Dhrithrashtra embrace.? He further complained, ?experience shows that either [U.S] would stall it, or steal it.? Mr. Jayakumar asked the government not to surrender Indian interests to the U.S. and finally warned, ?otherwise all patriotic citizens of this land, cutting across political and academic lines, would take to the streets?.

It?s also worth mentioning that the IGCAR has a tainted safety and hazard record. According to IGCAR, in 1987, during a fuel transfer process, a tube that guides fuel into the reactor snapped. Then in 2002, 75kg of radioactive sodium leaked inside a purification cabin.

The deal gave India a final say over which reactors to open to inspection and which ones to declare secret military sites, where weapons continue to be produced. Unfortunately, the Bush Administration caved in to Indian demands and allowed it to classify FBRs as military sites. This one misclassification will essentially enable India to secretly produce unlimited nuclear weapons. And for some unfathomable reason, Bush administration officials said this move would lead to fewer nuclear weapons. But critics were quick to argue that the US reversed decades of precedent with the deal, which lifted the ban on sales of nuclear materials to a country that has refused to sign the nonproliferation treaty and has a record of diverting fissile material from civilian sites.

Regardless of what proponents or opponents of the deal say, it should be clear to the world that, just as it did in the past, sooner or later India will divert American nuclear technology to its weapons program. The questions Bush Administration and members of Nuclear Suppliers Group should be seriously asking are, will the modernization of Indian nuclear weapons make the world, especially, the South-Asia safer? Will the American technology transfer start a new nuclear weapons race between India and Pakistan vis-à-vis China? Is it wise to destabilize the world by further arming a nation with a history of dishonoring its word? If not, then why the neo-cons in the Bush Administration are hell-bent at undermining the international treaties and conventions by breaking them in spirit and practice?

The greatest irony of this Indo-US deal remains that While America disarms the unarmed, it arms up the well armed.

Courtesy: Defence Journal



Key Sources:



["Full Text of Iran-India Joint Communiqué," Iran Almanac (Tehran: The Echo of Iran, 1974), p. 176]

[George Quester, "The Shaw and the Bomb" (unpublished paper, 1975), and a private interview conducted in February 1975; in Anne Hessing Cahn, "Determinants of the Nuclear Option: The Case of Iran," Nuclear Proliferation in the Near-Nuclear Countries (Cambridge: Ballinger Publishing Co., 1975), Onkar Marwah and Ann Shulz, eds., p. 199.]

[Nuclear News Buyers Guide, March 1983, pp. 19-24]

["India Says It Sold Iran a Chemical Used in Poison Gas," The New York Times,1 July 1989, p. 1]

[?Nucleonics Week?, 7 February 1991, p. 17; Nuclear News, March 1991, p.56]

["An Iranian Nuclear Chronology, 1987-1982", "Nuclear Facilities," Middle East Defense News, 8 June 1992]

[Nuclear Threat Initiative (NTI):

http://www.nti.org/e_research/profi...ical/index.htm]

[Chemical Weapons Convention Bulletin, March 1995]

[The Arms Control Reporter; Chemical Weapons Convention Bulletin, October 1995, Issue Number 27]

[The Arms Control Reporter; Chemical Weapons Convention Bulletin October, 1995, Issue Number 27]

[Top Indian nuclear expert helped Iran develop power plant: report; http://www.spacewar.com/2003/031023....vbyeqa4o.html]

[India`s Nuclear Tests: Will They Open New Possibilities for Iraq to Exploit?; ISIS Issue Brief; May 28, 1998]

[Chengappa, Raj. 2000. Weapons of Peace, HarperCollins Publishers India, ISBN 81-7223-330-2]

[Probe into illegal Indian exports to Iraq, New Delhi Bureau Chief Satinder Bindra and Amol Sharma, January 26, 2003; Indian documents suggest Iraq violated U.N. resolutions, Satinder Bindra and Amol Sharma, CNN, February 5, 2003]

ok... i gave up on this article... too much cleaning to do, I don't know why the damn authors don't do more research before publishing garbage...

Jay
19 Apr 06,, 20:40
I just googled to get this author's credentials and I stumbled upon his "scholarly" article which he wrote after AQKhan's arrest, where he says,



The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty is any way so discriminatory that it was rightly called as “disarming the unarmed”. Those moralizing to Pakistan are well advised to do some honest soul searching. :eek:

Pakistan is only a window to the Nuclear Proliferating World, but certainly not the door to it.
http://www.nuclearpolicy.org/index.cfm?Page=Article&ID=1513

Tronic
19 Apr 06,, 20:44
India, Pakistan, Israel
See also India and WMD, Pakistan and WMD, Israel and WMD

Three states - India, Pakistan, and Israel - have declined to sign the treaty. India and Pakistan are confirmed nuclear powers, and Israel is widely believed to possess nuclear weapons, although it is not known to have conducted tests (see List of countries with nuclear weapons). These countries argue that the NPT creates a club of "nuclear haves" and a larger group of "nuclear have-nots" by restricting the legal possession of nuclear weapons to those states that tested them before 1967, but the treaty never explains on what ethical grounds such a distinction is valid.

India and Pakistan have publicly announced possession of nuclear weapons and have detonated nuclear devices in tests, India having first done so in 1974 and Pakistan following suit in 1998 in response to another Indian test during a time of intense tensions regarding the disputed Kashmir region. India is estimated to have enough fissile material for more than 150 warheads. Pakistan reportedly has 60. The Israeli government refuses to confirm or deny possession of nuclear weapons, although this is now regarded as an open secret after Israeli nuclear expert Mordechai Vanunu -- later abducted and jailed by Israel -- revealed the program to the British Sunday Times in 1986.

In early March of 2006, India and the United States finalized a controversial deal to provide India with US civil nuclear technology. Proponents of the deal note that India will now classify 14 of its 22 nuclear facilities as being for civilian use, and thus open to inspection. Mohamed ElBaradei, the director the IAEA at the time, welcomed the deal by calling India "an important partner in the non-proliferation regime". However, attempts made by Pakistan to sign a similar agreement have been thwarted by the U.S. as well as the international community. The argument put forth is that Pakistan lacks the same energy requirements, and that the track record of Pakistan as a nuclear proliferator makes it impossible for it to have any sort of nuclear deal in the near future.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Non-Proliferation_Treaty



Bush hails India's proliferation record
Dispelling fears that the Indo-US civil nuclear deal will violate the US policy on non-proliferation, US President W George Bush has hailed India's impeccable record on proliferation.
"They (India) have had 30 years of not proliferating their nuclear know-how," the President said.

"Unlike Iran, for example, India is willing to join the IAEA. They want to be a part of the global agreements around nuclear power," he said, while replying to questions after his address at the City Club of Cleveland, in Ohio State.

Lavishing praise on the Indian democracy, Bush said, "India is a democracy and a transparent society. You find out a lot about India because there's a free press. There is openness. People run for office and are held to account...It's an open process."

The landmark deal, which is pending a clearance from the US Congress, has been advocated by various Bush administration officials on the grounds the deal will bring India, which is not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty (NPT), into non-proliferation mainstream.

Urging the Congress to endorse the deal, Mr Bush said the agreement would go a long way in establishing an "important relationship" between the two countries.

"I feel very comfortable recommending to the United States Congress that they ought to agree with the agreement that Prime Minister Singh and I have reached. It's very important for an important relationship," he said.

While referring to the Cold War era tensions between the two nations, Mr Bush said, "For too long, America and India were not partners in peace. We didn't deal with each other because of the Cold War. And now is the time to set the Cold War behind us. It's over."

He asserted that the nuclear accord was necessary to strengthen global security and non-proliferation goals of the US.

Affirming that the agreement is a "controversial decision" on his part, the President said he took the step despite the fact that "the controversial decision basically flies in the face of old Cold war attitudes, as well as arms control thinking."

Explaining the logic behind his decision, Mr Bush said, "We live in a global economy, there is a demand for fossil fuels and India should be able to develop clean fuel for its energy and so in our interests, our economic interests we worked on an agreement with India to encourage their expansion of civilian nuclear power."

"I agreed with the Indian government that India ought to be encouraged to develop a nuclear power industry," he said.

Bush appreciated the recent bonhomie in the relations between India and Pakistan and appreciated Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf for keeping up the momentum on the peace talks.

Visualising what the India-US deal would mean after the next 30 years, Mr Bush said, "My hope is some day somebody will be asking a question, aren't you glad old George W thought about entering into a strategic relationship with India?"




http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1656119,00050001.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4770946.stm


lol, well... what can i say???

Jay
19 Apr 06,, 21:28
Meet you're equivalent of A.Q. Khan, Dr. Y.S.R. Prasad! :)

Again, some more news to reiterate my points,
U.S. sanctions not justified, says India

External Affairs Ministry says the companies acted within the purview of Indian export laws

# Transfer of such chemicals not in violation of our regulations or our international obligations
# A rigorous system of export controls instituted

NEW DELHI: In a reaction to the recent imposition of U.S. sanctions on two Indian firms for having exported chemicals to Iran, the Ministry of External Affairs said on Wednesday that the companies concerned had acted entirely within the purview of Indian export laws and that Washington's move was unjustified.

"We have... seen reports about the imposition of sanctions on two Indian firms, namely Sabero Organics Gujarat Limited and Sandhya Organics Limited, under the Iran [Non]Proliferation Act, 2000... [for the] transfer of some chemicals to Iran" , MEA spokesperson Navtej Sarna said. "Our preliminary assessment is that the transfer of such chemicals is not in violation of our regulations or our international obligations. The Government of India's commitment to prevent onward proliferation is second to none. We have instituted a rigorous system of export controls and our track record in this regard is well known. India is working with the international community, including with the U.S., as a partner against proliferation. In this context the imposition of sanctions by the U.S. on our firms, which in our view have not acted in violation of our laws or regulations, is not justified."

Mr. Sarna welcomed the U.S. decision to lift sanctions imposed last year under the same Act on the retired Indian nuclear scientist, C. Surendar, as a "vindication" of the Indian Government's position on the matter. India said at the time that neither Dr. Surendar nor Dr. Y.S.R. Prasad, who was also sanctioned by the U.S. under the Iran Non-proliferation Act, had done anything to assist Iran's nuclear programme. "Since the imposition of sanctions in September 2004, the Government has maintained that this had no justification. Accordingly, we had urged the U.S. Government to review the issue and withdraw the sanctions. The Government also reiterates that sanctions against Dr. Y.S.R Prasad should be removed," Mr. Sarna said.

The sanctions on Dr. Prasad are due to expire on 22 September 2006.
http://www.thehindu.com/2005/12/29/stories/2005122917171400.htm

Now I dare you to compare Prasad with AQKhan ;)

Remember how US busted AQKhan and his network and Pakistan's initial reponse to the allegations and the end results of the allegations. Did you hear anything about Dr.Prasad like you heard about A.Q.Khan?? Why?? ;)

Jay
19 Apr 06,, 21:33
Some more funny stories on Adnan Gill,


Selling Out on F-16s (Part II)
This post is a followup to Saturday's "Selling Out on F-16s"

Well folks, it may not have the allure of 50 Cent versus The Game, but there's beef afoot in the blogosphere!

This past weekend I was debating Mr. Adnan Gill of Owl's Tree, a journalist who "frequently writes articles in national and international news media." The latter raised a couple of points worth mentioning, but before I get to that I want to point to my readers to a post Mr. Gill subsequently made in which he resorted to ad hominem attacks implying that I was somehow disingenuous or less-than-forthcoming on this site about my identity.

I find the claim that I am hiding behind an Internet alias to be not only inaccurate, but humorous when considering that Mr. Gill got my email address from my profile on this site, where my full name and status as a student in Maryland is given. (An undergraduate at the University of Maryland, College Park for those who care to know.) While I am of Indian ethnicity, I was born and raised here to parents that are American citizens and have lived here for over twenty years. My pride in my heritage does not translate into a blind nationalism for a country that I do not really have any ties to. And I will be first in line to criticize India when their actions merit it, such as when religious strife is permitted or the rights of minorities are not protected. Had Mr. Gill chosen to question me on India's close ties to Iran as an energy source, I would admit that I find these actions in conflict with the U.S.'s attempt to isolate the "rogue state".

Mr. Gill, as he mentions on the home page of his site, is a political commentator whose work has been seen in many publications. In the interest of full disclosure, however, I think it is worth mentioning that he also happens to be a writer for the Pak Tribune, an Islamabad-based online news service. I believe it's only fair that this bit of information serve as a disclaimer to a site which posts entries with titles like "Come India, the myth is busted", "Indians behind masks" and "Indians, eat your hearts out!"

He said of me, "If I didn't know any better, I would say you are Indian." Whereupon I might speculate that he is from Pakistan or some other Muslim country. This point is actually irrelevant. Mr. Gill's affiliation does not detract from the value of his argument; it is, however, a reminder not to throw around claims of disingenuity or bias when they are unwarranted.

As to the actual matter at hand, I'll say this. India, situated in a dangerous "neighborhood", must have the means to protect itself. As a peaceful democracy, I would argue that it has earned that right. In my opinion, it is in the U.S.'s interest to promote India's economic expansion and military strength because they are a free country in South Asia whose growth as a world power is needed to balance the region. (An unstable dictatorship in Pakistan, India's other struggling small country neighbors, and the burgeoning power of communist China.) Nick commented on my previous post that Musharraf in charge of Pakistan is better than the fundamentalists, and with that I obviously agree. Still, we must not forget that democracy has intermittently existed in Pakistan in years past. With elements of democracy now coming to such unlikely places as Palestine, Ukraine, and Saudi Arabia, perhaps it's not too much to hope for a healthy democracy in Pakistan's future. That, I think, is the key to a lasting positive future for Indo-Pakistani relations.

I opposed the release of the F-16s to Pakistan because I do not want anything to escalate tensions between India and Pakistan right now. Recently, constructive measures have been taken to reduce hostilities, such as the creation of a bus line linking divided Kashmir. Why then, when such progress is being made, introduce a new point of contention into the equation?

All can agree, I think, that the one element of rivalry worth preserving between the two nations is in cricket. I understand that Pakistan apparently won a thrilling victory today--Mr. Gill, I surmise, should be pleased. As for me, I suppose it's a betrayal of my Indian roots that I've never seen a cricket match in my entire life--and the big sports event I'm eagerly awaiting is baseball's Opening Day! The only "mask" this Indian has ever put on is a catcher's mask.

The purpose of Citizens Band is not to provide political "spin" or to be a source of one-sided commentary. I try my best to adhere to the oft-quoted Daniel Patrick Moynihan maxim "everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." On that note, I thank Mr. Gill for providing an opposing perspective to my stated thoughts, and for prodding me to illustrate in greater detail my rationale for my position. These kinds of exchanges, I hope, are beneficial to both parties and to the readers of our blogs. The more said, the better, as long as what's being said is about the issue itself and not who is saying it.

# posted by Citizen Jay : 5:40 PM 4 comments
Comments:
Adnan Gill responds
# posted by Adnan Gill : March 29, 2005 2:26 AM

I neither have time to waste nor any inkling in spending it by going through your monologs just to find your identity or your so-called responses.

Oh, come now, Mr. Gill, surely you can do better than that? One might think you were avoiding the issue here. It's only a friendly little game of hardball...so step up!
# posted by Citizen Jay : March 29, 2005 8:08 AM

Why does this guy put himself through the trouble of complaining about what your name is? Also, Indian men are hot, especially when they're short. Holla.
--- On to a more serious point:
The F-16s should not have been given to Pakistan or any other country in the Middle East/Asia because of the tensions and distinct advantage that Pakistan will now have over India. Like you said, Pakistan considered a "rogue" nation.
# posted by Jackie H : March 29, 2005 4:05 PM

Adnan Gill a journalists!!

You got to be kidding! He's a hack who used to post abuses and derogatory comments at the premier South Asian portal: South Asia Tribune. He was banned by us for hijacking the forum.
http://citizensband.blogspot.com/2005/03/selling-out-on-f-16s-part-ii.html


:biggrin: :biggrin:

Ray
19 Apr 06,, 22:01
I have no objections to the deal, it will pave way for us to get a similar deal with China.
Since Mr. Tronic in his colorful way of speaking challenged my claims about Indian proliferation, I posted the above aditorial.
Spledid piece to proof US' double standards and Indian hypocracy when it comes to classical whining about nuclear proliferation in the region.

Meet you're equivalent of A.Q. Khan, Dr. Y.S.R. Prasad! :)

Not quite.

Pak money can be smelt. The same money that kept Pakistan out of the 9/11 Commission Hearing!! ;)

Lobbyists and media on hire, hired!

Further, with a name like Adnan, what do you expect him to write - pro India stuff? But he sure has the potential to be a good fiction writer!

So, I say "Gill, ki Gall?"

Neo
20 Apr 06,, 18:15
LOL :biggrin:
Exactly the kind of replies I was expecting! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Tronic
20 Apr 06,, 22:25
LOL :biggrin:
Exactly the kind of replies I was expecting! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

whats there to grin about???


Mohamed ElBaradei, the director the IAEA at the time, welcomed the deal by calling India "an important partner in the non-proliferation regime". However, attempts made by Pakistan to sign a similar agreement have been thwarted by the U.S. as well as the international community. The argument put forth is that Pakistan lacks the same energy requirements, and that the track record of Pakistan as a nuclear proliferator makes it impossible for it to have any sort of nuclear deal in the near future.

the top article basically sums it all up... if u want to read the whole article, then read the article i posted in my previous posts above...

platinum786
20 Apr 06,, 22:34
India and clean, a third term springs to mind, oxymoron.

Tronic
20 Apr 06,, 22:44
aren't u a bit embarassed??? especially when you happen to be from a country like Pakistan?

Ray
20 Apr 06,, 22:45
A fourth term springs to mind seeing your post - Moron!

Indeed you are giving this term a new meaning!

Totally Platinum!

master_fx
21 Apr 06,, 06:42
all depends on which part of india........

Ray
21 Apr 06,, 11:23
all depends on which part of india........


Meaning what?

Tronic
21 Apr 06,, 14:05
lol, omg... now they have been proven wrong, once again on the whole proliferation issue, and now the topic is slowly drifting to how clean India's streets are... lmao...

Karthik
21 Apr 06,, 16:50
It will be very interesting to see the Pakistani reaction if the nuclear deal is approved by the senate.

Pakistan and nuclear non-proliferation - now that might qualify as an oxymoron!

Neo
30 Apr 06,, 21:37
Seeds of Indian Proliferation
Monday April 24, 2006
Adnan Gill
gill_adnan@hotmail.com


A country indulges in Nuclear Proliferation in one or two ways, as a donor or as a recipient. As a donor it can export the nuclear technology to other nation -- called 'Horizontal Proliferation' -- or it can divert technologies from its Civilian Nuclear Program(s) to its Military Nuclear Program(s) -- called 'Vertical Proliferation'. India is guilty of indulging in both, Vertical and Horizontal Nuclear Proliferation.

Horizontal Proliferation occurs when a country exports its indigenous resources (knowledge/items) and/or when it practices 'Onward Proliferation.' Onward proliferation takes place when a country obtains a controlled item from overseas and retransfers it, or exports a reverse-engineered item without proper authorizations to a proliferant state or to a terrorist group. Proliferant states and smuggling networks use such tactics to avoid export controls in supplier states. Experts like David Albright, President of Institute for Science and International Security (ISIS), believes proliferant states target Indian industries; consequently, Indian Onward Proliferation is expected be become a serious problem.

Vertical Nuclear Proliferation occurs when a country diverts knowledge and/or items from its safeguarded programs to its military programs. David Albright in an October 26, 2005 testimony before the US House Committee described the Indian Vertical Proliferation as, "India's extensive military and civil nuclear programs are often connected, sharing personnel and infrastructure. In addition, some facilities currently have both a military and civilian purpose." The Indian so-called "peaceful nuclear explosion" (detonated on May 18, 1974) is a prime example of the Vertical Proliferation. The fact is also confirmed by an Indian scientist Raja Ramanna who admitted that the radioactive core of India's first nuclear device was the plutonium diverted from its American-Canadian supplied civilian nuclear reactor (CIRUS).

Since 1949, as a recipient, India has licitly and illicitly received nuclear technology from 'Nuclear Supplier Group' (NSG) countries like France, Great Britain, Canada, Germany, United States and Soviet Union/Russia. The nuclear technology transferred to India in 1950s and 60s by NSG nations like the United States and Canada is directly credited to India's first nuclear weapon and its test (1974), a fact also confirmed by Indians themselves. For its part, India effortlessly proliferates the nuclear technology to countries like Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Sudan and South Korea.

Exploiting the dual-use nature of civilian nuclear equipments and materials India had been using the cover of civilian programs to produce nuclear weapons. Experts believe, as in the case of 1974 nuclear blast, the plutonium for at least some of India's nuclear devices tested in 1998 also originated from its American-Canadian supplied civilian nuclear reactor (CIRUS). In a June 15, 1998 Washington Post (p.A23) publication 'India Cheated', Victor Gilinsky and Paul Leventhal reported "You wouldn't know it from news reports, but most of the military plutonium stocks India dipped into for its recent nuclear tests came from a research project provided years ago by the United States and Canada. India had promised both countries it would not use this plutonium for bombs." India boldly violates non-proliferation conventions and brazenly breaks bilateral agreements by transferring nuclear fuels and technology from its so-called civilian nuclear programs to its nuclear weapons programs.

The so-called "Atoms for Peace" reactor was built by Canada and run by tons of heavy water supplied by the United States. In return for the reactor, India promised both suppliers in writing that the reactor would be reserved for "peaceful purposes" only. But in a display of barefaced defiance and belligerence, India broke its promise by diverting the plutonium from CIRUS to the manufacturing of nuclear weapons that were tested first in 1974 and then in 1998. The fact that neither Canada nor the United States has uttered a peep about India breaching the signed contract with contemptuous boldness is symptomatic of Western complicity in the building and modernization of Indian nuclear weapons arsenal through nuclear proliferation. Since it began operating in late 1950s the Indian CIRUS reactor alone has produced well over 600 pounds plutonium which is enough to build over 50 nuclear weapons. No wonder, the Indians do not take non-proliferation seriously.

Strangely, despite Indian disposition to indulge in nuclear proliferation when or as they please, each new generation of American policymakers think that they will be able to gain Indian restraint and acceptance of nuclear controls by being a little more accommodating to them. The Indians long time ago learned of the American weaknesses that stem from a mix of an obsolete Cold War mentality and commercial greed. Hence, they effectively exploit this American weakness to build, expand and qualitatively improve their own nuclear arsenal.

Indian perseverance in the acquisition of latest nuclear technology through covert and overt means, and its practice of proliferation of nuclear technology in both vertical and horizontal manners worries peace and non-proliferation experts. In light of unscrupulous and unrestrained Indian proliferation record, experts openly question Bush Administration's decision to transfer American nuclear secrets to India which can potentially compromise American national security due to Indian proliferation practices, including the 'Onward' proliferation. They argue that helping to ramp up India's ability to import and export controlled nuclear items can neither be in the interests of the

United States nor the global non-proliferation efforts.

Since the March 2, 2006 Indo-US Nuclear deal, the Bush Administration and Indian government officials have mounted a deceptive PR blitz in which they tirelessly hampion India's supposedly "impeccable" nonproliferation record. Factually, however, in order to buy into this sugarcoated propaganda, one would have to ignore and discount decades old Indian horizontal and vertical proliferation record that started in 1960s when India decided to dip into irradiated Plutonium from its civilian CIRUS plant. Not withstanding the deceptive Indo-Bush Administration propaganda, experts point to mounting evidence of Indian proliferation record. Recently, ISIS unmasked a well-developed, active, and top secret Indian program to outfit its uranium enrichment program and circumvent export control efforts of other countries.

Essentially, the Indo-US Nuclear deal allows India to buy foreign-made nuclear reactors while allowing her to substantially ramp up her ability to produce materials for nuclear weapons. Understandably, the deal was widely criticized even within the Bush-Administration. In 2001, the, American ambassador to India, Robert Blackwill asked Washington to rethink its nuclear policy towards India. But Former Secretary of State Colin Powell, however, wanted a sensible incremental approach to increasing sensitive trade with India. In a 2003 interview Secretary Powell said, "We also have to protect certain red lines that we have with respect to proliferation."

Leading nonproliferation experts of Bush Administration, John D. Rood and Robert G. Joseph tirelessly lobbied for a deal in which India would have agreed to limit production of plutonium and to place all of its electricity-producing reactors under permanent International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safeguards, which would have been in accordance with the US laws too. But the Bush Administration was so intent on hammering a deal with India that by the time Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh arrived in Washington, many of the key items on Mr. Rood's list had been taken off the table. Nuclear specialists in the US government say their concerns about weapons proliferation were overridden in final talks with India.

Secretary Condoleezza Rice is believed to be the force behind the hurriedly concocted and potentially damaging Indo-US Nuclear deal, which will arguably compromise American nuclear secrets vis-à-vis its national security. Reportedly, the deal is a brainchild of Secretary Rice's counselor and longtime colleague Philip Zelikow and (a Bombay-born expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and a former aide to Blackwill) Ashley Tellis. On April 3, 2006, the Washington Post (p.A01) reported, "Upon Rice's return from Asia, Zelikow began exchanging memos with Tellis, resulting in a 50-page 'action agenda' for U.S.-Indian relations completed in mid-May." While making a case for India, in a memo Tellis argued, US would have to "help New Delhi develop strategic capabilities such that India's nuclear weaponry and associated delivery systems" to deter growing Chinese influence.

The Post also revealed Bush Administration's maverick strategy of assisting India in developing nuclear weapons. It reported, "the Bush administration originally wanted a pact that would let India continue producing material for six to 10 weapons each year, [but the signed deal] would allow it enough fissile material for as many as 50 annually." The Indians were quick to pick on American desperation to conclude a deal. They outfoxed the Americans on negotiation table. The Post quoted a senior American official involved in the negotiation, the "Indians were incredibly greedy that day. They were getting 99 percent of what they asked for and still they pushed for 100." It was as if Bush Administration's sole goal was to please the Indians at any cost.

Sadly, instead of forcing India to freeze its Vertical Proliferation, the US State Department had been helping India get around the laws by arranging for France and later China to continue the Tarapur radioactive fuel supply. Considering Indian proliferation record, instead of rewarding India by signing the deal, at a minimum, Bush Administration should have insisted that Indian plutonium covered by "peaceful purposes" agreements be unavailable for nuclear weapons, and that the Tarapur fuel is not reprocessed to extract weapon grade plutonium. Under the 1963 agreement, India was bound to get US approval to reprocess the nuclear fuel. However, in a blatant disregard to the signed agreement, India disputed this and insisted it was free to reprocess the used fuel at any time. Regrettably, the US government as usual bowed to Indian demands fearing an irritant in US-India relations and dispatched the disagreement to the wastebasket of oblivion. Currently, there is enough Tarapur plutonium to manufacture hundreds of unaccounted nuclear weapons.

In March 2006, another ISIS report revealed details of Indian illicit and secret nuclear procurement program. The report effectively busted the myth of so-called 'indigenous' Indian nuclear program. The report highlighted the indisputable dependencies of Indian nuclear program on the foreign sources. It stated, "India has a long history of illicitly acquiring items for its own unsafeguarded nuclear facilities. Many of India's nuclear programs have depended on extensive foreign procurement for materials, equipment, and technology. Indian nuclear organizations use a system that hires domestic or foreign non-nuclear companies to acquire items for these nuclear organizations. Such procurement appears to continue for its secret gas centrifuge enrichment plant near Mysore."

The report also cataloged the deceptive and illicit procurement network established by Indian Department of Atomic Energy. "In an attempt to hide its true purpose from suppliers and others when it started this project in the 1980s" Under the direction of India's Department of Atomic Energy, Indian Rare Earths (IRE) Ltd. of Mumbai, a public-sector undertaking focused on recovering minerals and processing rare earths, procures sensitive materials and technology for a secret gas centrifuge uranium enrichment plant codenamed the 'Rare Materials Project' (RMP) outside Mysore, India. The Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC) operates the plant and appears to both coordinate procurements for this facility with IRE and pursue procurements for its own divisions through IRE. RMP itself is rarely acknowledged by the Indian government as a gas centrifuge plant."

An impressive and resolute Indian proliferation record spans over five decades. The Indian nuclear program is developed, nourished and sustained by the Nuclear Supplier Group nations through direct and/or indirect assistance. Whenever Indian establishment failed to secure direct and/or indirect assistance from the NSG, it stole the nuclear technology through secret underground nuclear proliferation networks.

Each state that covertly or overtly paddles nuclear technology to India makes mockery of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) that entered into force on March 5, 1970. Article III – 2 of NPT states, "Each State Party to the Treaty undertakes not to provide: (a) source or special fissionable material, or (b) equipment or material especially designed or prepared for the processing, use or production of special fissionable material, to any non-nuclear-weapon State for peaceful purposes, unless the source or special fissionable material shall be subject to the safeguards required by this article."

Even though, India is not a NPT signatory it has constantly fought to undermine and weaken the NPT and IAEA charters. American and European nearsightedness and compliancy has directly resulted into Indian constancy in pursuing nuclear bomb-making and nuclear proliferation. It is not surprising that the Indians expect the game of proliferation to continue.

Practically every nuclear reactor running or planned in India is either provided and/or built by a foreign country or had been designed from foreign blueprints -- stolen and otherwise. Every ounce for the radioactive cores of Indian nuclear weapons comes from the nuclear reactors that India deceptively, legally or illegally secured from foreign nations.

Pointing to the serious risks posed to the American national security, in his October 26, 2005, testimony before the House Committee on International Relations Hearing on the US-India David Albright warned, "This agreement could pose serious risks to the security of the United States. If fully implemented, it could catapult India into a position as a major supplier of both nuclear and nuclear-related materials, equipment, and technology. With a weak and poorly enforced export control system, [Indians] could become major suppliers to the nuclear weapon programs of adversaries of the United States, in some cases possibly using technology which the United Sates originally provided." India also has a huge manpower trained in nuclear secrets, which inherently makes it a considerable knowledge transfer risk.

Non-proliferation experts insist that India should be sanctioned for its proliferation record. To support their argument, they cite statements of Indian statesmen who admitted that the fears of international sanctions kept the nuclear weapons program in low-gear. The former Indian President Venkataraman said, all " preparations for an underground nuclear test at Pokhran had been completed in 1983 when I was the Defense Minister. It was shelved because of international pressure, and the same thing happened in 1995." Another example cited is of former Indian Prime Minister Gujral, "the Americans got in touch with Mr. (Prime Minister) Rao and for some reasons it was felt expedient to postpone the tests... It was a major decision where all dimensions and aspects had to be calculated. No decision could be taken in a hurry ignoring all the political, economic and international relations dimensions."

When it comes to Nuclear Proliferation India suffers from credibility problem. In a May 13, 1998, testimony before the US Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on Near Eastern and South Asian Affairs then Assistant Secretary of State Karl Inderfurth explained how Indian government can not be trusted with its mere assurances. "We were told privately and publicly that India would continue to show restraint in the non-proliferation field, and would do nothing to surprise us" As a direct result of India's decisions and actions, we are now compelled to look again at our approach to India," said Mr. Inderfurth.

Stung from Indian deceptions, after the 1998 nuclear test at Pokhran, Secretary Inderfurth advised Congress to coarse India in parting ways with its shadowy proliferation practices and encouraged it to become a responsible nation that respects non-proliferation norms. He said, "Instead of highlighting our cooperative efforts with India... we will now need to put much of the cooperative side of our agenda on hold and deal with the consequences of India's actions. We must focus anew on seeking a meaningful Indian commitment to cease from further testing, to join the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty immediately and without qualifications, and to respect other international non-proliferation norms." Emphasizing the difficulty in trusting India, Secretary Inderfurth also advised the Senate Subcommittee that due to dishonorable Indian practices the US should revaluate its relations with India, "We will need to assess how we will deal with India in accordance with Glenn Amendment and other U.S. laws, which require sanctions far more restrictive than those placed upon Pakistan under the Pressler Amendment" I must caution that India's actions have made [engagements] far more difficult."

Indian culpability in every step of Nuclear Proliferation cannot be ignored anymore. Instead of rewarding it for proliferating nuclear secrets and technologies to other nations and to build its nuclear weapons arsenal, IAEA and NSG will have to place sanctions on it to or, at minimum, slow down its mad pursuit of becoming a nuclear superpower. On account of Indian hegemonic behavior towards its neighbors and its inherent domestic instability steaming from a society built on racial/communal discriminations, the World Community cannot afford lose nukes from an unreliable and potentially fractured nation, like it almost witnessed when the Soviet Union was fractured.

http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=141648

Tronic
01 May 06,, 00:52
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S ADNAN GILL AGAIN!!!

This authors authenticity has already been proven on these forums... the guyz a joker, his own colleagues say so, lol...

Ray
01 May 06,, 01:25
Neo,

It is better than the pathetic state of Paksitan medical service.

Seen the thread?

One can avoid pollution, but not ailments. :eek:

raj
01 May 06,, 06:01
NEO, let me give you one friendly advice. During 1948 to 1971 Pakistani generals use to say to their soldiers that 1 pakistani equals 10 INDIAN hindu soldiers, well we all know what happened to it. simillarily you donot need to repeat a falsified story to make it true.
BTW this adnan does sound like chuck yeager a lot

Neo
01 May 06,, 19:00
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]Neo,

It is better than the pathetic state of Paksitan medical service.
Sir the thread is not about the 'pathetic state Pakistan' is in. ;)


Seen the thread?
Yes!
Have you??

Neo
01 May 06,, 19:04
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S ADNAN GILL AGAIN!!!

This authors authenticity has already been proven on these forums... the guyz a joker, his own colleagues say so, lol...
Seen your pathetic attempt to discredit the author, but the first article is full with references to support the claim.

Now face it, India is a proliferator and there's big chance that she will continue to proliferate vertically in the future, a risk even US congress has mentioned repeatedly.

Ray
01 May 06,, 19:52
Sir the thread is not about the 'pathetic state Pakistan' is in. ;)


Pollution and environmental medicine are linked or so I thought.

In so far as Pakistan being in a pathetic state, well, it does not even have a Pollution Board or does it? If so, do please put up a comparative state for us to realise how pathetic a state India is in. A comparison would surely be revealing! Don't get me wrong. Had you been a Burmese, I would have asked for the state in Yangon. Without a comparative chart it is so difficult to realise that in India were are approaching Doomsday, while others are entering the Pearly Gates of Paradise! And without a comparative state, it is mere words!


In so far as the poor state of Pakistani medical services is concerned, I read it in its original form, but I did not post the thread. Some one else did.

Notwithstanding, what I read, if true, it sure is pathetic. :) I compare with the services I have seen in India, though I have no comparative state to offer, being lazy to dig it out.

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 19:27
wth... when did the US hand over civilian nuclear technology to India????? This is the first time this will be happening, and where the hell is this guy getting that above info??? This above paragraph just shows this guys knows nothing what he's talking about... The Indian nuclear program has existed since 1947...

Your paragraph shows you run your mouth without bothering your brain. :tongue: Next time read before shooting your foot off..... The term you want to look for is "atoms for peace"...

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 19:38
Dude, you've got war head and missile blueprints and fully assembled missile kita from China. Tell us something new ;)

And we got ours from Soviets..... Tell us something new ;)



He did not seel blueprints to warheads like AQKhan did. Big difference :biggrin: Dont make a mountain out of a molehill.

Yeah..... instead he built it for mullahs... Big difference :biggrin: Dont make a fool out of urselfl.

Vaman
03 May 06,, 19:41
Soviets??

Thats news.

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 19:46
I just googled to get this author's credentials and I stumbled upon his "scholarly" article which he wrote after AQKhan's arrest, where he says,

Wow! He is published by Nuclear Policy Research Institute. :eek:

The dude must know what he talking about. at the end it says "ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Adnan Gill, now residing in the United States, received degrees in Political Science and Computer Information Systems. His Political Science studies focused on International Relations and Strategic Studies. He frequently writes opinions and letters in local and national news media."

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 19:54
lol, well... what can i say???

If Bush says India is clean then who cares what the proliferation experts say... :redface:

yea....... quoting Bush is a good idea... like Bush has a clue :confused: ....... how about we follow Bush into Iraq too?

Vaman
03 May 06,, 20:08
Adnan Gill : Isnt this the same guy who was banned from the SA tribune for obscenity and trolling.
You know every pak member at PDF goes around calling heimself a defence and international relations expert. I suppose the same could be said of him as well.

Jay
03 May 06,, 20:09
And we got ours from Soviets..... Tell us something new ;)

And here comes our Ajmeribaba pretending to know everything from UK. Who is "we" here?? Saying India got its SLV's from Russia is the biggest joke of century.


Yeah..... instead he built it for mullahs... Big difference :biggrin: Dont make a fool out of urselfl.
WTF are you talking about?? fool!!

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 20:09
Some more funny stories on Adnan Gill,



:biggrin: :biggrin:

why are you wasting forums time? :mad: the guy is obsessed with adnan and going on tangent and ranting on things which dont even make sense........... lets talk about the topic.... instead of obsessively trying to shoot the messenger, try to disprove the points he made by quoting proliferation experts.. :cool:

Jay
03 May 06,, 20:10
Wow! He is published by Nuclear Policy Research Institute. :eek:

The dude must know what he talking about. at the end it says "ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Adnan Gill, now residing in the United States, received degrees in Political Science and Computer Information Systems. His Political Science studies focused on International Relations and Strategic Studies. He frequently writes opinions and letters in local and national news media."
He is just an arm chair general like most of us here.

Jay
03 May 06,, 20:11
why are you wasting forums time? :mad: the guy is obsessed with adnan and going on tangent and ranting on things which dont even make sense........... lets talk about the topic.... instead of obsessively trying to shoot the messenger, try to disprove the points he made by quoting proliferation experts.. :cool:
Next time post from Urdu Jung that jinns gave nuclear bomb to Pakistan. We will agree it ;)

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 20:12
Adnan Gill : Isnt this the same guy who was banned from the SA tribune for obscenity and trolling.
You know every pak member at PDF goes around calling heimself a defence and international relations expert. I suppose the same could be said of him as well.

How many of your articles are published by Nuclear Policy Research Institute? Zero?????? :tongue:

Look at his’ http://www.nuclearpolicy.org/index.cfm?Page=Article&ID=1513

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 20:18
And here comes our Ajmeribaba pretending to know everything from UK. Who is "we" here?? Saying India got its SLV's from Russia is the biggest joke of century.

then please share with us which indian designed and built SLV engines, and also where india got its gyroscopes and other avionics from?????? just painting indian flag doesnt make it indian... if you are clueless then please dont let others know by opening ur mouth :confused:


WTF are you talking about?? fool!!

the F u r clueless about.... :tongue:

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 20:19
He is just an arm chair general like most of us here.

How many of your articles are published by Nuclear Policy Research Institute? Zero??????

Look at his’ http://www.nuclearpolicy.org/index....Article&ID=1513

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 20:20
Next time post from Urdu Jung that jinns gave nuclear bomb to Pakistan. We will agree it ;)

why??? cant u read hindi? :confused:

Jay
03 May 06,, 20:25
then please share with us which indian designed SLV engines and built,
They remotely match Russian for sure, If you know the history of Indian SLV's that is.


and also where india got its gyroscopes and other avionics from??????
Do you have anything to prove that Indian gyroscopes are infact Russian?


just painting indian flag doesnt make it indian... if you are clueless then please dont let others know by opening ur mouth :confused:
Ofcourse, India did not get fully assembled missiles and kits from North Korea and China and painted it Green. You are pretty confused, it does not work like that everywhere, its just in Paksitan. Ofcourse I'm clueless, coz I dont consult jinns like you do.


the F u r clueless about.... :tongue:
Jinns again baba!!

Jay
03 May 06,, 20:25
why??? cant u read hindi? :confused:
No I cannot read hindi and I cannot see jinns like you do.

Jay
03 May 06,, 20:27
How many of your articles are published by Nuclear Policy Research Institute? Zero??????

Look at his’ http://www.nuclearpolicy.org/index....Article&ID=1513

Ask a better link from your jinn. That page is erroring out. May be Nuclearpolicy realized their mistake? :biggrin:

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 20:27
Seeds of Indian Proliferation
Indian culpability in every step of Nuclear Proliferation cannot be ignored anymore. Instead of rewarding it for proliferating nuclear secrets and technologies to other nations and to build its nuclear weapons arsenal, IAEA and NSG will have to place sanctions on it to or, at minimum, slow down its mad pursuit of becoming a nuclear superpower. On account of Indian hegemonic behavior towards its neighbors and its inherent domestic instability steaming from a society built on racial/communal discriminations, the World Community cannot afford lose nukes from an unreliable and potentially fractured nation, like it almost witnessed when the Soviet Union was fractured.

no wonder over 50% of india is controlled by separatists..... just the other day marxists killed over dozen indians...... and just look at how racist Hindutva gangsters murder minorities like they did in gujarat.... :mad:

Jay
03 May 06,, 20:30
And when did Nulcearpolicy become authority on proliferation. Its just another group thats fighting to end the poriliferation. As such its prolly the most biased place to begin with.


NPRI was established to educate the American public through the mass media about the greatest single threat to our country's -- and indeed the world's -- public health, namely the profound medical, environmental, political and moral consequences of perpetuating nuclear weapons, power and waste. NPRI is led by Dr. Helen Caldicott, who for the last thirty-five years has lead an international campaign to end the nuclear age.

NPRI seeks to create a consensus of commitment to end the nuclear age by mounting public education campaigns, establishing a pervasive presence in the mainstream media, and by sponsoring high-profile symposia.

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 20:32
They remotely match Russian for sure, If you know the history of Indian SLV's that is.

Do you have anything to prove that Indian gyroscopes are infact Russian?.

instead of wasting our time, just give us the names of indian scientists or facilities that design and manufacture SLV engines and avionics??? ;)


Ofcourse I'm clueless, coz I dont consult jinns like you do.


looks like u will need jinns help, caz u dont have a clue... ;)

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 20:36
Ask a better link from your jinn. That page is erroring out. May be Nuclearpolicy realized their mistake? :biggrin:

its erroring out because it take an IQ of 10 or higher to use a link.... here try again... (http://www.nuclearpolicy.org/index.cfm?Page=Article&ID=1513) :cool:

r u sure u can handle it on ur own, or should i send one of my jins to hold ur finger? :tongue:

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 20:38
And when did Nulcearpolicy become authority on proliferation. Its just another group thats fighting to end the poriliferation. As such its prolly the most biased place to begin with.

and u think u r better than them? :biggrin: show us any of ur articles even if they r posted only on bharat-raksha? if not, then give it a rest... :cool:

Jay
03 May 06,, 20:51
no wonder over 50% of india is controlled by separatists..... just the other day marxists killed over dozen indians...... and just look at how racist Hindutva gangsters murder minorities like they did in gujarat.... :mad:

Arent we getting desperate?? 50% of India is controlled by seperatists? Which jinn gave you that info?? Gen.Zia??

May be you ought to look inwards and see how Balochis and Baltis, Pathans and Shias and ahmedias getting killed in your beloved Pakistan. :tongue:

Jay
03 May 06,, 20:53
instead of wasting our time, just give us the names of indian scientists or facilities that design and manufacture SLV engines and avionics??? ;)
I dont need to idiot, the onus is on you to prove your allegation that India got it from Russia. If you dont have anything to cite, it will just remain a ghost.


looks like u will need jinns help, caz u dont have a clue... ;)
Actually I like the way I'm, may be Mushy and you will defn need jinns help.

Jay
03 May 06,, 20:54
its erroring out because it take an IQ of 10 or higher to use a link.... here try again... (http://www.nuclearpolicy.org/index.cfm?Page=Article&ID=1513) :cool:
Its erroring out coz it was posted by a madrassa graduate guided by jinn, thats more plausible explanation. And it just cites Paktribune as a source, which is hardly a neutrals ource to start with.


r u sure u can handle it on ur own, or should i send one of my jins to hold ur finger? :tongue:
May be you need to ask your jinn to take your foot of the mouth, its getting in deeper by the minute we speak.

Jay
03 May 06,, 20:55
and u think u r better than them? :biggrin: show us any of ur articles even if they r posted only on bharat-raksha? if not, then give it a rest... :cool:
Just posting something on a website with no credibility doesnt mean that he is an expert on proliferation. Get over it !!

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 20:58
Please visit Federation of American Scientists’ (http://www.fas.org/main/content.jsp?formAction=297&contentId=541) (FAS) site to see how they also believe Indo-US nuclear deal is a BAD idea. :eek:

Ray
03 May 06,, 21:05
Ajmeribaba,

You stayed behind in Ajmer and the chador retruned to Paksitan? ;)

Jay
03 May 06,, 21:05
Please visit Federation of American Scientists’ (http://www.fas.org/main/content.jsp?formAction=297&contentId=541) (FAS) site to see how they also believe Indo-US nuclear deal is a BAD idea. :eek:
Whats your problem? Proliferation or the nuke deal?
If its proliferation, India has a better record than Pakistan and US thinks India is a worthy partner.

If its the deal itself, and you are an American, go talk to your Senator and Congressman, if you are not, go hump a tree!

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 21:32
Arent we getting desperate?? 50% of India is controlled by seperatists? Which jinn gave you that info?? Gen.Zia??

no its Gen. Human Rights Watch1 (http://hrw.org/wr2k3/asia6.html), Gen. Human Rights Watch2 (http://hrw.org/doc?t=asia&c=india), Gen. Human Rights Watch3 (http://www.hrw.org/reports/1995/India.htm), Gen. Amnesty International (http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/ind-summary-eng), Gen. Coalition Against Genocide (http://www.coalitionagainstgenocide.org/reports.php), Gen. Hindustan Times (http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/6253_150380,00160003.htm) and so on........ :tongue:

is that enough or do u need more??? :confused:

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 21:39
I dont need to idiot, the onus is on you to prove your allegation that India got it from Russia. If you dont have anything to cite, it will just remain a ghost.

Oooo…….. somebody is getting frustrated….. :cool: is that the best u can do??? :redface: That’s what happens when all one knows is how to run mouth without the benefit of using brain… :eek:

Nooooo........ moron, look at ur post 34....... u r the idiot who bragged first... so onus is still on u...... :mad: though nice try to pass the buck in a typical indian tradition........ ;)

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 21:41
Its erroring out coz it was posted by a madrassa graduate guided by jinn, thats more plausible explanation.

applause please........ the moron knows how to click on a link....... :biggrin:

And it just cites Paktribune as a source, which is hardly a neutrals ource to start with.

r u saying NPRI didnt publish it? :confused:

Ray
03 May 06,, 21:43
Ajmeribaba,

It appears that you have cogulated functionality.

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 21:45
Just posting something on a website with no credibility doesnt mean that he is an expert on proliferation. Get over it !!

and how many of ur articles r published anywhere??? :eek: is it ZERO??? :eek: running mouth without using brain is not really flaterring........ start using it or u will have booth feet logged in where sun doesnt shine...... ;)

Jay
03 May 06,, 21:46
Oooo…….. somebody is getting frustrated….. :cool: is that the best u can do??? :redface: That’s what happens when all one knows is how to run mouth without the benefit of using brain… :eek:
It was you who is getting frustrated. Go read post #29, you could clearly see who got personal.


Nooooo........ moron, look at ur post 34....... u r the idiot who bragged first... so onus is still on u...... :mad: though nice try to pass the buck in a typical indian tradition........ ;)
Idiot, it was you who said India got its SLV tech from Soviets in Post # 29, did you cit any sources for that or you just pulled it out of your a$$? :tongue:

Jay
03 May 06,, 21:48
no its Gen. Human Rights Watch1 (http://hrw.org/wr2k3/asia6.html), Gen. Human Rights Watch2 (http://hrw.org/doc?t=asia&c=india), Gen. Human Rights Watch3 (http://www.hrw.org/reports/1995/India.htm), Gen. Amnesty International (http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/ind-summary-eng), Gen. Coalition Against Genocide (http://www.coalitionagainstgenocide.org/reports.php), Gen. Hindustan Times (http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/6253_150380,00160003.htm) and so on........ :tongue:

is that enough or do u need more??? :confused:

And where does it say that 50% of India is controlled by seperatists?? :biggrin:
OTOH I have a BBC report which says Waziristan is not under Pakistani control, you wanna read it? ;)

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 21:48
You stayed behind in Ajmer and the chador retruned to Paksitan? ;)

i am not surprised someone had to come to the aid of bumbling moron....... :eek: but unfortunately, the help also turned out to be sarcastic moron..... :mad:

Ray
03 May 06,, 21:49
If Bush says India is clean then who cares what the proliferation experts say... :redface:

yea....... quoting Bush is a good idea... like Bush has a clue :confused: ....... how about we follow Bush into Iraq too?

It appears Bush has some clue.

Musharraf went white as if he is seen a ghost when Bush chastised him recently during his visit.

Musharraf is totally a bushfire in warmth and love in presence of Bush and always nods at appropriate moments when Bush turns to him.

What's good for Musharraf should be good for you too!

Or do you feel that Bush is dumb?

Why shouldn't you follow Bush to Iraq?

You could put a chador at the shrine in Karbala! ;)

It would indicate your piety! :rolleyes:

ASG
03 May 06,, 21:50
i am not surprised someone had to come to the aid of bumbling moron....... :eek: but unfortunately, the help also turned out to be sarcastic moron..... :mad:

Your words are a reflection of your own self.

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Jay
03 May 06,, 21:51
and how many of ur articles r published anywhere??? :eek: is it ZERO??? :eek: running mouth without using brain is not really flaterring........ start using it or u will have booth feet logged in where sun doesnt shine...... ;)

I didnt claim that I'm a nuclear proliferation expert to begin with, idiot. As I said, just posting some guy who's got a website publishing his half baked articles doesnt make him an expert. And if you do believe in jinns call for their help, you are sinking under your own weight. I hope atleast your head survives, as you have vaccum between your ears.

Ray
03 May 06,, 21:52
i am not surprised someone had to come to the aid of bumbling moron....... :eek: but unfortunately, the help also turned out to be sarcastic moron..... :mad:

Learnt the spelling of moron recently?

Good start for a Madrassa addelpate!

Isn't it refreshing from the ordeal of a 24 hours Quaran bashing?

Welcome to the modern world!

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 21:53
Whats your problem? Proliferation or the nuke deal?
If its proliferation, India has a better record than Pakistan and US thinks India is a worthy partner.

If its the deal itself, and you are an American, go talk to your Senator and Congressman, if you are not, go hump a tree!

why r u getting so mad??? is it something u r insecure of??? ;)

All I have done is shown how proliferation experts from FAS (http://www.fas.org/main/content.jsp?formAction=297&contentId=541) think Indo-US is a BAD deal (http://www.fas.org/main/content.jsp?formAction=297&contentId=541) for whole world?

Jay
03 May 06,, 21:53
Isn't it refreshing from the ordeal of a 24 hours Quaran bashing?

Sir,
did you mean to say bashing or something else?

Jay
03 May 06,, 21:55
why r u getting so mad??? is it something u r insecure of??? ;)

All I have done is shown how proliferation experts from FAS (http://www.fas.org/main/content.jsp?formAction=297&contentId=541) think Indo-US is a BAD deal (http://www.fas.org/main/content.jsp?formAction=297&contentId=541) for whole world?

Why should I be insecure coz some one from FAS said its a bad deal! Last time I checked FAS does not make policies for US govt nor they have authority over Pres.Bush.

Is that what they call madrassa logic? :biggrin:

Ray
03 May 06,, 21:57
why r u getting so mad??? is it something u r insecure of??? ;)

All I have done is shown how proliferation experts from FAS (http://www.fas.org/main/content.jsp?formAction=297&contentId=541) think Indo-US is a BAD deal (http://www.fas.org/main/content.jsp?formAction=297&contentId=541) for whole world?

No, not mad at you.

I was just trying to tease out the air gaps between your ears!

That's all!

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 21:57
Ajmeribaba,

It appears that you have cogulated functionality.

genius the word is "coagulated". beside if u can attack as a pack and have curdle quality urself then why squeal? :eek:

Jay
03 May 06,, 21:59
beside if u can attack as a pack and have curdle quality urself then why squeal? :eek:
Go call your God and jinns, if you cannot handle the heat. Better yet, run with your tails tucked behind!!

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 22:00
Idiot, it was you who said India got its SLV tech from Soviets in Post # 29, did you cit any sources for that or you just pulled it out of your a$$? :tongue:

Moron....... there is a difference between nuclear technology and SLV...... :eek: how many do i have to tell u to think before sticking it in ur sun doesnt shine??? :biggrin:

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 22:01
OTOH I have a BBC report which says Waziristan is not under Pakistani control,

who cares???????? :tongue:

Neo
03 May 06,, 22:03
Buttercookies anyone?

Ray
03 May 06,, 22:03
genius the word is "coagulated". beside if u can attack as a pack and have curdle quality urself then why squeal? :eek:

Thank you.

That is why I like you.

You are an excellent Personal Assistant to me.

Why should I worry when you are there to shuffle the stuff?

Good job done!

At this rate, I sure will recommend you to the Officers grade!

I assure you that it is no compliment to be called a genius by a jenny ass!

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 22:05
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]It appears Bush has some clue.

thanks for sharing ur ability to judge and reason, or should i say inability??? :biggrin: who said u cant be jocular?

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 22:07
Your words are a reflection of your own self.

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

here comes the Hindutva cavalry...... :biggrin:

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 22:07
I didnt claim that I'm a nuclear proliferation expert

then pipe it

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 22:11
Learnt the spelling of moron recently?

Good start for a Madrassa addelpate!

LOL! Coming from genius who spells "cogulated" gives a special meaning to Mandir educated moron........ :biggrin:

ASG
03 May 06,, 22:11
here comes the Hindutva cavalry...... :biggrin:

And trample you under the charging horde...

Ray
03 May 06,, 22:17
thanks for sharing ur ability to judge and reason, or should i say inability??? :biggrin: who said u cant be jocular?

Musharraf dotes on Bush!

Is he brain damaged?

BTW, you asked me if I had some insecurity.

Isn't it evident that someone does?

Who uses a Indian city as a part of his moniker :eek: :tongue: :biggrin: ?

Hinduvta?

Counting me too?

Ask your chums about me!

Or do you expect me to yodel every morning at the crack of dawn and into the wee hours of the night asking the faithful to turn west etc etc as if one is a human compass?!

And yodel two times "Ash-hadu an la ilaha ill-Allah" to state that I bear witness that there is none worthy of being worshipped except Allah.

Have a heart.

I am a non believer and proud to be so!

Ray
03 May 06,, 22:20
LOL! Coming from genius who spells "cogulated" gives a special meaning to Mandir educated moron........ :biggrin:

What are you here for?

Get cracking and to the job.

Don't forget your station!

Sadly dodo, there is no mandir schools.

Educate your madrassa mind.

Such stupidity of religious brainwashing is not universal in the world.

And the best part, I am not a Hindu! :tongue:

So, now, who turns out to be the moron?

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 22:21
Why should I be insecure coz some one from FAS said its a bad deal!

and for some reason Mundir educated racist moronic machine thinks they know better than FAS (http://www.fas.org/main/content.jsp?formAction=297&contentId=541) experts......... u guys r hilarious...

BTW, have u called anymore Hindutva activists to pull ur foot out of ur where sun shine......... so far only 2 activists have show up.... where r others? maybe they r busy protecting Gao-mattas from minorities by lynching them...... ;)

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 22:23
Go call your God and jinns, if you cannot handle the heat. Better yet, run with your tails tucked behind!!

no thanks....... its not that hard to kick around behinds of few Mandir educated Hindutva morons....... :cool:

Ray
03 May 06,, 22:25
and for some reason Mundir educated racist moronic machine thinks they know better than FAS (http://www.fas.org/main/content.jsp?formAction=297&contentId=541) experts......... u guys r hilarious...

BTW, have u called anymore Hindutva activists to pull ur foot out of ur where sun shine......... so far only 2 activists have show up.... where r others? maybe they r busy protecting Gao-mattas from minorities by lynching them...... ;)

Most interesting.

The circus come to town want to paint all in the same hue!

I think it is soon to be westward look.

Don't be late!

Jump to it and pull the prayer mat out. Dust it first. There might be vermin. Done your ghosal or will a baby wipe do?

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 22:26
And trample you under the charging horde...

it wouldnt be the first time Hindutva hyenas will go on a murdering spree..... ;)

Ray
03 May 06,, 22:26
no thanks....... its not that hard to kick around behinds of few Mandir educated Hindutva morons....... :cool:

Talking to yourself? :rolleyes:

BTW is Musharraf brain damaged to dote on Bush?

If not, then why do you feel Bush is dumb?

Or are you dumb as a doornail?

UnitedPakistan
03 May 06,, 22:30
This thread and the responses are just appalling. This just shows how stupid some of the people here are in this forum.

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 22:30
Or do you expect me to yodel every morning at the crack of dawn and into the wee hours of the night asking the faithful to turn west etc etc as if one is a human compass?!


hey doesnt it beat having a cup of Gao-Matta passab at the crack of dawn while yodeling ram ram?? ;)

i am a non-believer too and pruod of it too............ :)

Ray
03 May 06,, 22:30
Hi United,


I see you hovering below!

Reinforcement come to town? ;)

Ray
03 May 06,, 22:32
This thread and the responses are just appalling. This just shows how stupid some of the people here are in this forum.


By Jove, a Daniel come to Judgement!

Thus spake Ajmerubaba's Baba!

Ajmeri,

Are you a wannabe Indian?

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 22:33
Jump to it and pull the prayer mat out. Dust it first. There might be vermin. Done your ghosal or will a baby wipe do?

please dont bend out of shape if i cover gao-matta's passab and dung that ur kind considers holly enough to consume........... ;)

alokindia2020
03 May 06,, 22:39
India does not have a rogue scientist "Abdul Qader Khan" as Pakistan has........thats ur answer......that how India is clean




u understand


u better understand

Ray
03 May 06,, 22:42
please dont bend out of shape if i cover gao-matta's passab and dung that ur kind considers holly enough to consume........... ;)


Not at all.

Why should I do that?

Wouldn't you rather recommend what you take as per what your good Prophet ordained?

Nothing like a glass of camel urine I am told makes one respond magnificently to the Azan!

Here's the prescription to the elixir of life!

Remember Allha must have given this excellent insight!


Sahih Bukhari

Narrated Anas:The climate of Medina did not suit some people, so the Prophet ordered them to follow his shepherd, i.e. his camels, and drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they followed the shepherd that is the camels and drank their milk and urine till their bodies became healthy. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. When the news reached the Prophet he sent some people in their pursuit. When they were brought, he cut their hands and feet and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron. Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 7, Bk. 71, No. 590. (Also, see No. 589.)

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 22:48
India does not have a rogue scientist "Abdul Qader Khan" as Pakistan has........thats ur answer......that how India is clean




u understand


u better understand

wow! talk about sour nerves........ lol

thanks for returning to the topic....... here is a link (http://www.eightballmagazine.com/diatribes/volume01/047/973.htm) in which Hindutva leadership explains how to protect against a nuke attack...... :biggrin:

Ray
03 May 06,, 22:48
Bye then Ajmeri.

You run for your chilled glass of camel urine as ordained by the good Prophet.

I, as the kaffir, shall rush to partake in a chilled glass of beer!

I am sure you will add to your youth with a bubbling frothy glass of camel urine! ;)

Don't be naughty in the interim.

Cheerio, old tyke!

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 23:06
Not at all.

Why should I do that?



ram ram....... r u being blasphemous....... run along and wash ur mouth with pagan tooth-paste (http://www.jphpk.gov.my/English/Mar05%202g%20(general).htm) and give some nutrition to ur obviously starving brain....... and then spray some gao-matta passab/perfume caz u dont stink to high heaven yet...... :tongue: here is a reference (http://www.hindunet.org/News/default.php?dtstr=20030201&Formsearchresults_Page=4) as to all of things u can do with gao-matta excrements beside merely eating and drinking it, just in case u drank it all already....... :mad:


Perfumed cow dung is now available for Hindu rituals. Called Holy Cow Dung... Samples had been sent to Singapore, Malaysia, the Middle East and the United States, where Hindus find it almost impossible to get cow dung, the paper said. Hindus worship the cow and use its dung in various religious rituals. These include the upanayanam, commonly called the thread ceremony, which is performed to mark the beginning of studenthood for a boy. Panchagavyam - a 'sacred mixture' consisting of cow dung, cow urine, milk, curd and ghee (clarified butter) - is given to young men to eat during the upanayanam.

hurry...... call them right away or they will run out free samples and then u will have to run a local farm... looking for a gao-matta......... :biggrin:

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 23:16
I, as the kaffir, shall rush to partake in a chilled glass of beer!


where r u running to? ahhhhhh........ i.c. u had to hurry for the cow excrament free samples so u dont have to run to a local farm... looking for a gao-matta for direct supply......... . i bet nothing beats a frothy gao-matta urine chaser as u munch on cow-patties after taking a goratna pill (http://www.jphpk.gov.my/English/Mar05%202g%20(general).htm) for ur constipation.......... ;)

Ciao

Ray
03 May 06,, 23:20
ram ram....... r u being blasphemous....... run along and wash ur mouth with pagan tooth-paste (http://www.jphpk.gov.my/English/Mar05%202g%20(general).htm) and give some nutrition to ur obviously starving brain....... and then spray some gao-matta passab/perfume caz u dont stink to high heaven yet...... :tongue: here is a reference (http://www.hindunet.org/News/default.php?dtstr=20030201&Formsearchresults_Page=4) as to all of things u can do with gao-matta excrements beside merely eating and drinking it, just in case u drank it all already....... :mad:



hurry...... call them right away or they will run out free samples and then u will have to run a local farm... looking for a gao-matta......... :biggrin:

Sweetheart.

You have been naughty in the interim.

Could you give the link?

Or is that what you Mullah taught you in the madrassa?

I gave you Moahmet's words and given the Paragraph! Right from the stuff his sidekick Bukhari wrote! Check it.

Or has the camel urine gone to your head?

Jay
03 May 06,, 23:21
Moron....... there is a difference between nuclear technology and SLV...... :eek: how many do i have to tell u to think before sticking it in ur sun doesnt shine??? :biggrin:

May be if you take your head from your a$$ and read my post before quoting it, it wouldve been a lot better.

This is your post #29


Originally Posted by Jay
Dude, you've got war head and missile blueprints and fully assembled missile kita from China. Tell us something new
And we got ours from Soviets..... Tell us something new

Now tuck your tails behind your legs and run to your jinns.

Your Post # 39


then please share with us which indian designed and built SLV engines, and also where india got its gyroscopes and other avionics from?????? just painting indian flag doesnt make it indian... if you are clueless then please dont let others know by opening ur mouth

So when were you talking about nukes here?? And it was you who opened you crap hole that India got its tech from Russia and so you have to prove your allegation, not me.

Jay
03 May 06,, 23:22
then pipe it
Yeah I piped mine right to your mouth.

Ray
03 May 06,, 23:22
where r u running to? ahhhhhh........
Ciao

Look, I do look after slum dwellers as a part of social service, but have a heart, I must leave sometimes, right?

Jay
03 May 06,, 23:23
and for some reason Mundir educated racist moronic machine thinks they know better than FAS (http://www.fas.org/main/content.jsp?formAction=297&contentId=541) experts......... u guys r hilarious...

BTW, have u called anymore Hindutva activists to pull ur foot out of ur where sun shine......... so far only 2 activists have show up.... where r others? maybe they r busy protecting Gao-mattas from minorities by lynching them...... ;)

Yeah as if FAS is the beacon of the world and all the headbangers follow FAS. Go hump a camel !

Jay
03 May 06,, 23:24
no thanks....... its not that hard to kick around behinds of few Mandir educated Hindutva morons....... :cool:
So done your share of head banging today?? I could see the after effects and spill over here!

Ray
03 May 06,, 23:27
Ajmeri, you wannabe Indian,

The link you gave is from Malay Mail.

What do you expect the converted Moslems to write?

BTW, I hope you know that like you, they are converted Hindus and so obviously they would be shouting Allah Allah a little louder than the original camel urine imbibers of nomadic Bedouin lands!

The counterfeits always try to look more genuine! ;)

Of course, I know that you will claim to be a Sheik or a Syed and a direct progeny of Mohammed, as most converted claim, but then which Moslem doesn't claim to be a unwashed Bedou sharing his tent with the camel and stinking to high heavens?

I am sure you will claim some equation with Mohammed camel too! :eek:

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 23:30
Could you give the link?

sweetie-pie,

i should have known that ur brains cells are devoted to consuming cow excrement’s or else u would have known the underlined words r links.... golly, even pundit Jay seem to be a genius compared to u.......... :biggrin:

Ray
03 May 06,, 23:34
Ajmeri the wannabe Indian,

Don't worry about me.

Converted with the Sword quailing and quaking or was the jezia too big a burden to bear?

Malay Mail!

UnitedPakistan
03 May 06,, 23:35
India does not have a rogue scientist "Abdul Qader Khan" as Pakistan has........thats ur answer......that how India is clean




u understand


u better understand
What a weak point!

You keep harping the same tune over and over until you die. :biggrin:

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 23:36
May be if you take your head from your a$$ and read my post before quoting it, it wouldve been a lot better.

moron........ take ur head out gao-matta's a$$ and look at the topic....... is using ur brain cells too much to ask?



Now tuck your tails behind your legs and run to your jin

now raise gao-matta tail and crawl back in its a$$

Ray
03 May 06,, 23:37
What a weak point!

You keep harping the same tune over and over until you die. :biggrin:

Isn't it nice?

Just like the five time a day of noise from the Muezzin wailing and waking the dead?

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 23:38
Look, I do look after slum dwellers as a part of social service, but have a heart, I must leave sometimes, right?


u mean the ones munching on cow-patties with u? ;)

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 23:39
Go hump a camel !

why? r u the only one who can hump a cow/gao-matta? :eek:

UnitedPakistan
03 May 06,, 23:47
Isn't it nice?

Just like the five time a day of noise from the Muezzin wailing and waking the dead?
So now your comparing the Azan to his ranting? :biggrin:

AjmeriBaba
03 May 06,, 23:47
BTW, I hope you know that like you, they are converted Hindus and so obviously they would be shouting Allah Allah a little louder than the original camel urine imbibers of nomadic Bedouin lands!


at least some of us dont share ur nasty habit of sodomizing gao-matta/cow while crying ram ram louder and louder as u munch on cow-patties and chase them with frothy cow urine........... ;)

Ray
03 May 06,, 23:48
Ajmeri Indian,

As an Indian (as you claim) you should know that all this cow pills etc are not ordained by gods for the Hindus, if indeed they take these pills.

On the other hand, I quoted from Bukhari, who is the most loyal sidekick of Moahhmmed, and who is the last word on Hadiths. He has written that the good Mohammed advised Camel Urine imbibing for prime health!

Now, you blokes are in a timewrap. You can't change or disobey the Quaran, the Sunnahs, Hadith and all those iron clad tentacle like grips on you.

It is ordained by Allah or by Mohammed and you jolly well obey.

In other religions, there is no compulsion. Hell, Catholics, who are so strict about religion, don't follow Lent while you guys go crazy over Ramzan, no water no nothing!! Man you guys are real religious nuts. You can give yourself much pain! And then you go bleeding yourself silly with all the iron chains that makes those sadist sex deviates of the West get horny! (I forget what they are called who get sexual pleasure through inflicting pain)

I have quoted your scripture to answer your starting the nonsense on urine.

Not that I understand Hindu scriptures, but nonetheless, quote some passages from Hindu scriptures so that one understand that this pills are taken by them.

Even so, the little that I understand, there is no religious binding on Hindus and in fact, they are the most bindaas lot since they do whatever they feel like and think they are religious!

They pray when they want and they don't pray for ages!

But yes, do quote from Hindu scriptures. They will be an eye opener for me!

Till then don;t forget to imbibe the stuff Bukhari has said Mohamed has ordained - drink camel urine.

Bless you and don't forget to burp! ;)

Jay
03 May 06,, 23:55
moron........ take ur head out gao-matta's a$$ and look at the topic....... is using ur brain cells too much to ask?
I guess the camel got's its d!ck deep inside your cervice that you cannot speak coherently anymore. Proliferaion generally includes nukes, chemicals and missiles. get that in to your brain, wait, you just have a vaccum there.


now raise gao-matta tail and crawl back in its a$$
I wasnt the one who was complaining that a pack is attacking me, so you betta run back and hide behind camel's d!ck.

Jay
03 May 06,, 23:56
why? r u the only one who can hump a cow/gao-matta? :eek:
No, I agree I'm not the ONE. I guess its you. thanks for letting us know. You can go hump camel and cow and buffalo all you want. :biggrin: :biggrin:

Jay
03 May 06,, 23:57
So now your comparing the Azan to his ranting? :biggrin:
Which is about the same for us kaffirs.... :tongue:

AjmeriBaba
04 May 06,, 00:00
I guess the camel got's its d!ck deep inside your cervice that you cannot speak coherently anymore. Proliferaion generally includes nukes, chemicals and missiles. get that in to your brain, wait, you just have a vaccum there.


I wasnt the one who was complaining that a pack is attacking me, so you betta run back and hide behind camel's d!ck.

dude, ur infatuation clearly proves u to be a dung eating/urine drinking Hindutva ***!............. :biggrin:

Nasty nasty nasty……… lol

Jay
04 May 06,, 00:03
dude, ur infatuation clearly proves u to be a dung eating/urine drinking Hindutva ***!............. :biggrin:

Nasty nasty nasty……… lol
bang bang bang...bang the wall harder! Meanwhile drink some camel p!ss as said in your hadiths. Arent you the chosen ones who follow the black book?

Ray
04 May 06,, 00:05
at least some of us dont share ur nasty habit of sodomizing gao-matta/cow while crying ram ram louder and louder as u munch on cow-patties and chase them with frothy cow urine..........



I would not like to get into this sodomy stuff in Islam with you since there is a whole thread on this issue and everything has been discussed there.

If you wish to know the expertise and prowess and the penchant that sodomy bequeaths on you all, do visit that thread.

Suffice it to say, you guys take the cake. Homosexuality amongst Moslem is legend. It is internationally well known. So why discuss what is common knowledge?

Now if the Hindus call the cow Mother, would they sodomise the cow? Do you all sodomise your mothers? Is that the popular custom in Islamic lands to go sodomising their Mothers? Obviously not. So, aren't you being a total lunkhead and putting Islam to shame? Be a little wary what you write. But then, on the other hand, if you are convinced that it is ordained in your holy books to sodomise Mothers, please go a head and exhibit it in your writings.

As far as I am concerned it makes no difference what the cow is, excepting where it gives milk.

AjmeriBaba
04 May 06,, 00:07
all this cow pills etc are not ordained by gods for the Hindus, if indeed they take these pills.


then sweetie-pie why r u still munching on the cow-dung and chasing with cow urine?

what r u still doing here? didnt u had to massacre some achoots with ur Hindutva hyenas? or is the taste of cow dung and cow pie too hard to resist to go on ethnic-cleansing? :cool:

Ray
04 May 06,, 00:09
So now your comparing the Azan to his ranting? :biggrin:


I am comparing nothing.

Azan is a huge headache to non Moslems.

One just can't sleep with all that nasal wailing and guttural endings as if someone is gurgling up the phlegm!

Ray
04 May 06,, 00:13
then sweetie-pie why r u still munching on the cow-dung and chasing with cow urine?

what r u still doing here? didnt u had to massacre some achoots with ur Hindutva hyenas? or is the taste of cow dung and cow pie too hard to resist to go on ethnic-cleansing? :cool:

Hashish acting on you?

Could you quote Hindu scripture to reinforce what you write.

I have used Moslem scriptures to state that Camel urine is the elixir of good health so said Moahmmed.

In case you can't quote from Hindu scriptures, I take it that you are a troll and apart from that an illiterate coward who cannot back his words! In other words, a liar and a degenerate!

AjmeriBaba
04 May 06,, 00:20
bang bang bang...bang the wall harder! Meanwhile drink some camel p!ss as said in your hadiths. Arent you the chosen ones who follow the black book?

what is the color of racist Manusmrtis and vedas that taught u how to eat cow-dung and drink cow-pie directly from the source and kill lower-classes as u 'bang bang bang...bang' gao-matta? :mad:


"People here whose behaviour is pleasant can expect to enter a pleasant womb, like that of a woman of the Brahmin, the Ksatriya, or the Vaisya caste. But people of foul behaviour can expect to enter the foul womb, like that of a dog, a pig, or an outcaste woman." -- Chandogya Upanisad 5:10:7.


"If a man of one birth (Sudra) hurls cruel words at one of the twice-born, his tongue should be cut out, for he was born from the rear-end. If he mentions their name or caste maliciously, a red-hot iron nail ten-fingerslong should be thrust into his mouth. If he is so proud as to instruct priests about their duty, the king should have hot oil poured into his mouth and ears." -- Manusmrti 8:270-272.

now run along.... the d!cks must be getting dry without ur mouth around them to moist......... say hi to Hindutva fags for me......... will ya? ;)

AjmeriBaba
04 May 06,, 00:22
I would not like to get into this sodomy stuff

why isnt Jay around to sodomize. he loves d!cks and 'bang bang bang... bang'...... not even gao-matta? :eek:

Jay
04 May 06,, 00:25
what is the color of racist Manusmrtis and vedas that taught u how to eat cow-dung and drink cow-pie directly from the source and kill lower-classes as u 'bang bang bang...bang' gao-matta? :mad:
What makes you think I'm a hindu?? I told ya, banging you head takes out your reasoning capability. Drink some camel urine and go suck its d!ck


now run along.... the d!cks must be getting dry without ur mouth around them to moist......... say hi to Hindutva fags for me......... will ya? ;)
You mean you want to run and moist the camel's d!ick and say hi to Sipahi Sahiba, wait, I'll just say Pakistanis,its all the same, feel free to do so.

Jay
04 May 06,, 00:27
why isnt Jay around to sodomize. he loves d!cks and 'bang bang bang... bang'...... not even gao-matta? :eek:
Pakistani talking about sodomy, heights of ignorance. Dont walk with your Aryan a$$ to NWFP, they might mount you from behind. May be they already did, thats why you are so p!ssed off :biggrin: :rolleyes:

Ray
04 May 06,, 00:28
Hindusim has evolved and not in a timewrap like Islam.

The Vedas and all that does not run India as Hudood runs Paksitan.

We have the the Indian Penal Code, the Criminal Procedure code etc governing this country.

If India were in a timewrap as Islam is in, then you would have been correct.

Ray
04 May 06,, 00:31
why isnt Jay around to sodomize. he loves d!cks and 'bang bang bang... bang'...... not even gao-matta? :eek:


It maybe your forte, but not mine.

Thank you.

Are you a person who sodomises your Mother?

Haven't I explained to you not to be a moral degenerate?

Because in actuality you are demeaning your kith and kin.

AjmeriBaba
04 May 06,, 00:35
What makes you think I'm a hindu?? I told ya, banging you head takes out your reasoning capability. Drink some camel urine and go suck its d!ck


You mean you want to run and moist the camel's d!ick and say hi to Sipahi Sahiba, wait, I'll just say Pakistanis,its all the same, feel free to do so.

here we go again with ur infatuation with d!cks...... whats fags like u and Ray do in ur Mundirs is ur business we dont need to know how lick dicks...... :mad: u r one sick dude...... :mad:

hey, if i was u, i would disown the bigoted black hindusim......

dont u have calls to take or does ur call center also mooch off uncle sam like indians typically do???? ;)

AjmeriBaba
04 May 06,, 00:36
[QUOTE=Jay]What makes you think I'm a hindu?? QUOTE]

ur nasty sabji stinch......... :mad:

Jay
04 May 06,, 00:38
[QUOTE=Jay]What makes you think I'm a hindu?? QUOTE]

ur nasty sabji stinch......... :mad:

I'm way better than a black book following, camel d!ck suckin head banger :biggrin:

Tronic
04 May 06,, 00:40
wow... another thread exploding... lol.... Muslims are kool ok... so are Hindu's... the only ones that suck **** are P@ki's!!!!

Tronic
04 May 06,, 00:41
[QUOTE=Jay]What makes you think I'm a hindu?? QUOTE]

ur nasty sabji stinch......... :mad:
lol, whats wrong with Sabji??? I like Sabji.... (u prefer camel d!cks over Sabji?????) lol

Jay
04 May 06,, 00:41
here we go again with ur infatuation with d!cks...... whats fags like u and Ray do in ur Mundirs is ur business we dont need to know how lick dicks...... :mad: u r one sick dude...... :mad:
But I'm still not sicker than a camel d!ck sucker. bang bang bang and suck it hard!!


hey, if i was u, i would disown the bigoted black hindusim......
If I were you, I wouldve disowned the barbaric, black book following, sodomic, child molesting illeterate religion .


dont u have calls to take or does ur call center also mooch off uncle sam like indians typically do???? ;)
Dont you have some head banging to do? Arent you the chosen one for today's terrorist attack on innocent civilians?

AjmeriBaba
04 May 06,, 00:42
Hindusim has evolved and not in a timewrap like Islam.

The Vedas and all that does not run India as Hudood runs Paksitan.

We have the the Indian Penal Code, the Criminal Procedure code etc governing this country.

If India were in a timewrap as Islam is in, then you would have been correct.


hey hindutva ***....... what r parroting about pakistan and islam....... i couldnt care less about both.... keep on harping on both.. see if I care... all i know is there two black hindu bigoted fags here with tastes for d!cks, cow dung and urine............ :biggrin:

Tronic
04 May 06,, 00:42
and yoh Jay, clean up ure act, seriously... don't reply to Trollers!!! this dude is likely to get banned sooner or later... ignore trolls, love life!!! lol

Jay
04 May 06,, 00:44
All I see is a caeml d!ck sucker harping about his exploits of sucking d!cks. It aint interesting any more dude, can you tell us something else besides that you suck d!cks and got humped by camels?

Ray
04 May 06,, 00:44
In Moslem nations, the suppression of liaison between men and women outside prearranged wedlock has produced frustrated sexual tension that has sought and found release in homosexual intercourse through the centuries. Those denied access to licit sexuality have sought and obtained outlets that have produced chronic contradiction between normative morality and social realities. Male and female prostitution and same-sex practices — including abuse of young boys by their older male relatives — have been rampant in Islamic societies from the medieval to the modern period. It should be emphasized that those societies stress a distinction between the sexual act itself, which was deemed acceptable, and emotional attachment, which was unpardonable:

A Moslem who is the active partner in sexual relations with other men is not considered a “homosexual” (the word has no pre-modern Arabic equivalent); quite the contrary, his sexual domination of another man may even confer a status of hyper-masculinity. He may use other men as substitutes for women, and at the same time have great contempt for them. This depraved view of sex, common in mainstream Moslem societies, is commonly found in the West only in prisons. In all cases it is the presence of love, affection, or equality among sexual partners that is intolerable. Equality in sexual relations is unimaginable in Islam, whether heterosexual or homosexual. Sex in Islamic societies has never been about mutuality between partners, but about the adult male’s achievement of pleasure through domination.

A 17th century French visitor to the Middle East went so far as to claim that Moslems were bisexual by nature, and many male authors gave descriptions of “licentiousness” (lesbianism) among women in harems and bath houses. Homosexuality became known to the English as the “Persian” or “Turkish” vice.

This peculiar aspect of the Middle East has never entirely disappeared. The sight of men, even soldiers in uniform, strolling along a street hand in hand, strikes first-time visitors as extraordinary even today. The Moslem world enjoyed a reputation as a haven for sex with boys and men well into the twentieth century.

There are many thread on Mullah sodomsing young boys. Imagine Mullahs preaching the Koran humping boys who they teach.

In NWFP, as per a thread, it is taken to be a matter of pride to have a young boy as a sexual partner!

But why discuss this?

Unless you are a ordained homosexual Mullah abused!

Tronic
04 May 06,, 00:45
hey hindutva ***....... what r parroting about pakistan and islam....... i couldnt care less about both.... keep on harping on both.. see if I care... all i know is there two black hindu bigoted fags here with tastes for d!cks, cow dung and urine............ :biggrin:
uhhmm... don't talk a lot dude... if u keep talking like this, maybe we'll have to cut ure d!ck's off and stick em up ure @ss again... lol

Ray
04 May 06,, 00:46
I think I have had enough of this man!

I would have discussed with him but his fixation of sodomising Mothers and virulent homosexual tendencies are revolting to the senses and decorum!

A total animal!

He can't even back up what he writes.

A troll!

AjmeriBaba
04 May 06,, 00:47
[QUOTE=AjmeriBaba]
lol, whats wrong with Sabji??? I like Sabji.... (u prefer camel d!cks over Sabji?????) lol

no wonder u stink too........ :eek: and its ur Hindutva faggit partner Jay that loves camel d!cks like u............. :mad:

no wonder u stink too........ :eek: and its ur Hindutva fagit partners Ray and Jay who also loves camel d!cks like u............. :mad: maybe loving d!cks is a sick hindu infatuation along with eating cow dung and drinking cow piss……. :tongue:

Tronic
04 May 06,, 00:47
I think I have had enough of this man!

I would have discussed with him but his fixation of sodomising Mothers and virulent homosexual tendencies are revolting to the senses and decorum!

A total animal!
dun loose ure cool... it's not Hindu's that have a bad image in the world... it's Islam... how can a bunch of Pakistani trolls change that??? so keep ure kool dude...

Ray
04 May 06,, 00:49
dun loose ure cool... it's not Hindu's that have a bad image in the world... it's Islam... how can a bunch of Pakistani trolls change that??? so keep ure kool dude...

I am not a Hindu.

Tronic
04 May 06,, 00:49
[QUOTE=Tronic]

no wonder u stink too........ :eek: and its ur Hindutva faggit partner Jay that loves camel d!cks like u............. :mad:

no wonder u stink too........ :eek: and its ur Hindutva fagit partners Ray and Jay who also loves camel d!cks like u............. :mad: maybe loving d!cks is a sick hindu infatuation along with eating cow dung and drinking cow piss……. :tongue:
hehe.... I stink??? man... ure right... been hanging around on this thread wid u for too long....

Tronic
04 May 06,, 00:50
I am not a Hindu.
it doesn't matter... keep cool...

Jay
04 May 06,, 00:51
uhhmm... don't talk a lot dude... if u keep talking like this, maybe we'll have to cut ure d!ck's off and stick em up ure @ss again... lol
For all that it matters, it may be already cut in to half and going by his responses and how he hate em means he aint got one at all. :biggrin:

AjmeriBaba
04 May 06,, 00:51
I would have discussed with him but his fixation of sodomising Mothers and virulent homosexual tendencies are revolting to the senses and decorum!


r u saying that or did ur Devidasis mother opened her mouth? ;)

Jay
04 May 06,, 00:52
r u saying that or did ur Devidasis mother opened her mouth? ;)
The mother who got raped during the muslim conquests in subcontinent said that. ;)

AjmeriBaba
04 May 06,, 00:52
I am not a Hindu.

sure......... and u eat cows and dont drink cow piss too........ ;)

Tronic
04 May 06,, 00:54
sure......... and u eat cows and dont drink cow piss too........ ;)
wth???? ure one retarded person...

AjmeriBaba
04 May 06,, 00:54
The mother who got raped during the muslim conquests in subcontinent said that. ;)

sorry to hear ur Devidasis mother was raped by moslems too...... :eek:

TopHatter
04 May 06,, 00:55
sure......... and u eat cows and dont drink cow piss too........ ;)
Alright, I've had plenty enough of you, you're done. :rolleyes:

Tronic
04 May 06,, 00:56
sorry to hear ur Devidasis mother was raped by moslems too...... :eek:
no, "almost" got raped... until the moslems found out, their d!cks had been chopped off by Sikhs...lol

Tronic
04 May 06,, 00:57
finally!!! bye bye Ajmeri... nice havin u here....

Jay
04 May 06,, 00:58
I seriously think its a jinn who got banned previously derailed this thread. May be Tophatter can confirm that!!

AjmeriBaba
04 May 06,, 00:58
Alright, I've had plenty enough of you, you're done. :rolleyes:

if u r a fair person at all, trace the thread and see how jay and ray started vulgarity and personal attacks.

Jay
04 May 06,, 01:02
if u r a fair person at all, trace the thread and see how jay and ray started vulgarity and personal attacks.
You could go read it from post # 61, who hurled personal insults on whom.
You can read but you cannot respond in the forum anymore, for good.

TopHatter
04 May 06,, 01:09
if u r a fair person at all, trace the thread and see how jay and ray started vulgarity and personal attacks.
I am a fair person. And it sure would have helped if you had reported posts that you felt were offensive or vulgar.

Did you do that?

Nope.

And unfortunately YOU were the one who started in with filth like this:


ram ram....... r u being blasphemous....... run along and wash ur mouth with pagan tooth-paste and give some nutrition to ur obviously starving brain....... and then spray some gao-matta passab/perfume caz u dont stink to high heaven yet...... here is a reference as to all of things u can do with gao-matta excrements beside merely eating and drinking it, just in case u drank it all already.......
hurry...... call them right away or they will run out free samples and then u will have to run a local farm... looking for a gao-matta.........

TopHatter
04 May 06,, 01:09
And this one gets locked as well.